How to Fix Our Honours System | Shipping Chaos in the Red Sea
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- čas přidán 30. 06. 2024
- What should we make of Liz Truss's resignation honours? How does Iran use proxies to attack the US and Israel? Why was the election in the Democratic Republic of the Congo so expensive?
Join Rory and Alastair as they answer all this and more on today's episode of The Rest Is Politics.
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00:00 Intro
01:00 Part 1 - Honours System and Domestic Affairs
33:50 Part 2 - Global Affairs
Liz Truss Honors List raised concerns, as it appeared to disproportionately acknowledge someone whose actions had a detrimental effect on the nation. It is imperative that members of the House of Lords demonstrate proficiency in their specific fields to effectively fulfill their responsibilities.
Groucho Marx said : “ I do not want to be a member of a club who wants me as a member “. Great program you have by the way !
Paula Vennels should be stripped of her honour for her role in the Post Office scandal
Definitely
PMs should only get to do an honours list if they complete a full 5 years.
No, nil, none, zero, zilch.
Thoughtful
Yesterday, a young man made the news because he happened to save the lives of a young mum and her 3 year old daughter in a car trapped under a bridge. He got them out of the car, at a great risk to himself. In my view he deserves suitable recognition.
Ah but ordinary Joe blogs don't matter when giving out honours . This brave man done something that restores my faith in humanity bless you and your family ❤️❤️
Recognition sure... But not a seat in the Lords... We don't need unelected Parliamentarians of any type.
The entire Tory party couldn't hold a candle to him
Well said ❤️
Over the years I have seen first and second world war footage of the likes of going over the top and all those young men falling back into the trench, similar with the second, D day and NO recognition, some one who has time to reflect on a situation in war gets a medal., seems wrong to me.
I think my favourite part of all of this podcast is that, whether it was central to your thinking or not, in such a divisive "us or them" political landscape you are showing that while we may have different political views we can still be reasonable, civil, and friends.
My late granddad was a Labour councilor and his best friend at the time was a Conservative councilor. They would (metaphorically) knock seven bells out of each other in chambers, and then once the debate was over and they were out of the arena they went and had a drink and were friends.
I have always kept this lesson close to my heart, and i think its a lesson that so many people across so many spectra (political or otherwise) need to hear.
I have always believed that 99% of politicians are doing it because they genuinely, wholeheartedly want to improve the lives of others. The debate is how we do that, and I think that has been lost somewhere along the way.
You both are showing that and it gives me hope for politics, both foreign and domestic.
Appropriate to remember the life of Benjamin Zephaniah who rejected an honour as he didn’t want his name attached to such an oppressive empire!
Mr Banks also refused an honour so long as the woman in charge of the post office retained hers.
How come the shipping industry is not more present in the news in general? It has so much a big impact globally!
You guys do an amazing job. Huge respect.
The Committee's first report in 1995 established an initial version of The Seven Principles of Public Life, also known as the Nolan Principles after the committee's first chairman. The principles were Selflessness, Integrity, Objectivity, Accountability, Openness, Honesty and Leadership.
I note, in addition, that one of this country's foremost composers, John Rutter, remains unhonoured, being a genuinely humble bloke. He cannot but have made it known he's not interested. And as a warning to all, Lebvedev (KGB and Bar) remains a Lord.
David Bowie turned down a CBE and subsequently a Knighthood too.
Excellent episode gents. A very happy new year to you both, let’s hope it’s better than the last!
For the honours list why not just send "deserving" individuals a nice food basket from Harrods, a HMV record token and a Crackerjack pencil instead.
I'd suggest an electricity voucher.
Steady on … let’s leave the pencils to those that have earned them!
Are those getting a Knight/Damehood deserving of a Blue Peter badge?
@@humblegamertube Maybe / Maybe Not, we wouldn't want to devalue the badge. Peerages to be replaced a Blue Peter badge - YES !!!!
The word ‘Empire’ badly needs to be expunged from the honours system. Likewise associations with royal patronage. Too many deserving people feel they have to reject an honour because of these associations.
We definitely need to remove the Empire from the honours. Several well deserved honours have been refused because of this. There hasn’t been an empire since before I was born and I’m 62!
They need to limit the number of lords. Say to one for each full year a PM served. Annual honours should be by comity and there should be an aim to bring the numbers down to less than 500 from the current 824. Anyone who hasn’t attended 10 days in the last year should have their right to attend removed immediately.
And collect their £300 per day 🥴
Learning so much from you both. I just finished your book Rory, fantastic read. This is an insightful and quite comforting podcast amidst unsettling times. May it live long and prosper.
I agree with having a limited number and also the list of qualities. As an upper champer of elders and experts it works well. The interchange between Lord Robertson and Cameron late last year on aid for Ukraine was beautiful to watch.
Rory's suggestion of having some strict definition of standards for an honour comes across as absurdly naive, especially when uttered so close to the name of Michelle Mone. Such people have neither shame nor capacity to reflect, they would skip to receive their honours which they would doubtlessly feel were well-deserved. 'Those exalted standards, why, they fit me like a glove!'
Absolutely 💯
Happy New Year, gentlemen. Another great episode....
Scrap the whole corrupted, bloated, medieval, undemocratic House of Horrors and bring the UK into the modern era. There has been talk of reforming or scrapping the place for 100 years+ and yet it still functions as a retirement home for failed or troublesome politicians and various arselickers.
Hear hear.
As it were.
@@samseal8611 1. Abolish the HoL. 2. Remove all heraldic titles-Viscounts, Barons, Lords, Earls, Dukes etc... 3. All land previously given by the Plantagenets and subsequent medieval monarchs to cronies for 'favours done' should be taken into UK state ownership and the income generated by the land (i.e rents) rather than lining the pockets of the privileged few should go to help fund public services. Did you know that this privileged lot own about 50% of all the land in the UK. 4. Abolish the honours system completely.
Except despite the distateful foundations and high level of cronyism, the lord's have proven to be far more robust and considered than the commons over and over again. We need to be very careful we don't lose that unless we are also changing the voting system to give us a functional commons.
Lord Beefy Botham brings valuable cricketing expertise to the legislative process.
Brilliant guys
Notable that it's a similar problem to the supreme court in the US. For-life positions are a terrible idea, especially when they are chosen by whichever party is in power, especially-especially in a two party system.
I think Wilson was already suffering from dementia, the list was created by Lady Forkbender.
Isn’t the honors panel supposed to be independent? If so, how is the criteria defined? Surely steps can be taken to make this whole process more robust?
How about removing voting rights and admittance within the lords if their attendance is too low? Let’s say matching it with attendance in the country with non-doms over taxation. 90 days a year or so. If they don’t meet the criteria, they can still call themselves Lord but can’t have anything to do with the business of the nation.
Should cut down the numbers in the house by a nice big chunk.
Why not get rid of the whole circus? Pollies are adept at manipulating any guidelines or criteria. The institution is corrupted, undemocratic,elitist and bloated. Start anew and enter the 21st century.
Doesn’t apply to Lords, your talking about mbe etc.
Since the House of Lords Reform Act 2014, if a Peer doesn't attend the House during a Session (usually about 1 year), without having taken an authorised Leave of Absence, are automatically no longer members of the House
For as long as I can remember (since Thatcher anyway) there's always been a good handful of dishonourable/ undeserving individuals receiving gongs for doing sweet FA except a favour or two for the PM or government of the moment. As Alastair well knows, Tony's cronies got gongs all right. Thatcher, Major, Brown, Cameron and May each had theirs. Johnson and Truss have merely taken this awful pish-taking to extremes.
The only thing "we should make of" it is to reform the honours system so that the merits of each nominated individual is assessed objectively. For far too long, incumbents of certain high (and, increasingly often, not-all-that-high) public and private offices get honoured or ennobled as if by right. Worst among those are "rewarded for failure"; as often as not appointed under the revolving door system of cronyism and who then go on to preside over chaos and misery at the helm of various quangos, outsourced providers etc.
The "because it's the done thing" excuse must be called out for what it is. Honouring "services to politics" is no doubt deserved by a few individuals, but that core of the system rotted long ago with gongs handed out like confetti to people who've been no more than convenient bankrolling or damage-limiting "friends" at a particular moment.
There's a heck of a lot to fix - but be fixed it must. Quickly. Let Sunak's final honours list be the last under this appalling system.
Thanks for posting
In the NHS hospital consultants used to be given some discretionary award when they were close to retirement which boosted their pension massively. It was dubious. I think it has been stopped or reduced in the last 10 years.
In Italy we also give public recognition in the form of "Cavaliere della Repubblica", but perhaps we should follow the British lead and institute the "Ordine dell'Impero Romano" award 😅
Cobolt is used in Diesel/Petrol refining and actually Cobolt is being phased out of EV batteries and in fact many EVs now are Cobolt free.
Rory is a genius…soooooo articulate. I cld listen to him forever! He shd be P.M. These discussions are sooo informative! Please have one on health, diet etc; dreadful advertisements promoting programmes like “ Children’s’ Bake Off “, which lead to obesity & ill health.
Very hard to police honours. Best we can do is allow a single 10 year term and have attendance / vote requirements.
10 yr terms and vote / attendance requirements are a great start. But there must be more to do as well e.g. a cap on number of members, caps on sectors members come from e.g. business, charity, clergy and political party affiliations. Aiming to develop a more balanced and productive chamber......
lord lebedev of hampton and siberia KGB. The Baroness Mone of useless PPE and isle of man trust fund. The Baron Bailey of 'jingle and mingle' partygate Paddington. What an absolute scandal
The Prime Minister's Resignation Honours are honours granted at the behest of an outgoing UK Prime Minister following his/her resignation. In such a list, a Prime Minister may request the reigning monarch to grant peerages, knighthoods, damehoods and other awards in the British honours system to any number of people.
The time for reform is as ripe as a mouldy lettuce...
Possible areas for reform might include:
1.Putting to the people the prima facie question whether the prime minister exercising the tradition has besmirched the prime ministerial office and should lose the privilege. Proven lying to Parliament or costing the economy incalculable billions would be strong contenders.
2. Imposing a minimum period in prime ministerial office--even a 50 week minimum would have kiboshed Ms Truss' egregiously unconscionable nepotism.
3. Proscribing appointments made on the "donor principle", where the only benefit has been a gift by the appointee to a particular political party, without any real value to the country as a whole.
4. Imposing a minimum age for appointees: recent appointments have raised doubts as to their beneficiaries' qualifications and experience.
5. In cases where the Monarch fights shy of exercising his right to block inappropriate nominations, an ad hoc cross-party committee should be given an overriding power to do so, whenever an obvious abuse of power will otherwise occur.
6. Resignation Honours are nothing more than a time-honoured tradition. As such they fly in the face of the democratic process of voters having the right to decide, just once in every 5 years, by whom they want to be governed.
7.. A judge-led standing committee should be established to determine cases where blatant nepotism, croneyism or abuse may have occurred. The committee's ambit should include a power to exclude/relieve convicted wrongdoers from office.
High on the committee's procedural agenda should be deciding appropriate penalties for "losing" nationally important WhatsApp or other communications!
It should never be forgotten that appointment to high office carries with it the legislative power to determine how we all lead our, increasingly difficult, daily lives.
Most of us are fed up with being told to "shut up: just suck it up".
Any of these honours list appointments should be strictly ceremonial. I don't really care if ex-PMs award people OBEs (or whatever they should be called in the modern age), but I completely abhor the idea of them being able to effectively unilaterally appoint people to a legislative body.
The whole concept of the HoL needs to be re-examined. Its purpose, function, form, and method of appointment should be redesigned according to modern requirements, rather than inheriting all of those things from a chamber designed specifically to represent the interests of the aristocracy.
I dislike the whole system. I think the deference shown to these people holds our country back. Let’s have some something that recognizes ability, talent and good character. Keir Starmer was going to reform the HoL; what happened to that?
Keir Starmer has not been prime minister, yet. He has had no opportunity to reform anything.
@@seymourclearly He's had plenty of opportunities to renege on all the promises he's made about what he would do in office. Barely a week passes without another "cast iron pledge" abandoned or a "commitment" watered down to the point of meaninglessness.
Maybe all potential political honours candidates should be voted upon secretly (before they are announced), and must achieve a certain proportion of cross-Party support 🤔
I’ve been going through the back catalog of podcasts since oct and I am surprised how little attention is given to addressing the self imposed political silence in the UK about the situation in Gaza - why the silence ?
I would impose a rule that to receive an honour one must have done something extraordinarily selfless. That is to say that they should not receive payment of any kind for the selfless thing they have done. That would completely rule out people who simply are doing the job for which they are paid; politicians, sportspeople, broadcasters etc. And that would limit honours to people that deserve them like volunteers.
ToryRory can't help himself and repeatedly bring up Harold Wilson. A PM from nearly 40 years ago. As if that's comparable. Just can't help himself.
Maybe to give balance for the clearly partisan Campbell who defends Blair no matter what the subject is.
@@kevindevlin7025 Something from 40 years ago isnt balance. But the fact he’s desperately trying to use whataboutism to somehow balance the horrendous Tory cronyism speaks volumes about him. You don’t need balance here.
Actually nearly fifty years ago.
Very interesting.
Gives a new meaning to Failing Upwards. This is the first year I won't be voting or spoiling the ballot paper mainly due to whats has been going on in parliament over the few years.
Please vote even if it's for party that has no chance in your constituency. It helps the stats for PR. Which for a fairer democracy don't we need
If you arent going to vote you shouldnt complain about them- have your vote recorded in some way even if it is just spoiling your paper.
I completely disagree. If you vote you shouldn’t complain, it’s like going to a casino and gambling on a game that you know is broken then being upset that you lost money.
I'm with George Carlin on voting.@@jahcotaykefentse6156
And this is the ‘king of spin’, Alastair Campbell, preaching…
Unusual sleeve Rory.
An unwanted Xmas present?
I have a solution: have it that the PM and leader of the opposition both have to agree on everyone given a peerage
Thanks everyone!
Apologies, was I am a relatively new follower, but have you talked about Yemen and Sudan, and what is happening and what the cause of it is, and maybe, the way out of it.
If you have would you put a link up, or do an explainer please
Thanks a lot. Really enjoying the episodes
29:50 - I can smell the heather from here. Och aye. 🏴 🏴
Can you do a chat about central America and the growing tensions over oil and the huge movement of population. Should we be worried?
It is odd listening to AC talk about damaging ideologues because there are many people who would say he meets the criteria for this definition. Wasn't he the first spin doctor?
I personally believe that the UK should have a house of Elders, rather than a house of Lords. This means a fixed number of individuals that have served the public or worked in business or the arts for several decades as a minimum. These individuals could be nominated by the Prime Minister or the leader of the opposition, but would ultimately be selected by cross-party committee from a shortlist of nominees in a process that would include a public interview and references from former associates or colleagues. They would be given a five year term, at which point they could be reselected by committee or retire. The idea would be to provide the country with a wise and experienced group of people, selected on merit rather than elected by popularity, serving as a true check and balance to the government of the day.
Sounds like a very good plan. Something needs to change.
debate and scrutiny is lacking in the commons - damning but true statement. I suspect the debates happen in the commons bars.
Cape of Good Hope South Africa, where the Atlantic meets the Indian Ocean, very rough, can be very dangerous to navigate. Don't forget that too. Engines going there and you are in serious strife.
And can we cut back on membership of the Privy Council as well!!
There's a privy in my daughter's house in Wales, much used by liberal peers on the way home from the pub.
Is that relic of empire still there?
@@geraldbutler5484predates the empire by about 700 years.
Shared Coe interview with Ovett. He says thanks.
From the Office for Health Improvement and Disparities government website excess deaths minus fewer deaths than expected in England from January 6 2023 to December 1 2023...26,334 excess deaths. Like you say it makes a big difference when you know some of the people who have died.
If we’re to have an honours system there needs to be a dishonours system alongside it.
Just like the movement to reform slavery in the early 1800's - The Honours system should be seen as an insult to a 'fair' and 'Democratic' society and should be abolished.
Casual aside: "I remember talking to people who were trying rig the Afghan election..."
I love the level of real world experience in these talks.
A new Britain..3 assemblies...pr....one federal govt.....commons 400 members....upper house elected...and most important...a written constitution.seperation church and state
And finally federal govt building outside of London as it would be the seat for English assembly.
If the operational procedures and management of Edinburgh Council, under the governance of a Labour administration, continue as they are, it is very unlikely that the Labour party will succeed in Scotland. Unfortunately MSM fail to give the SNP the opportunity to explain their cause.
On the Honours system I don't really care how many people get an MBE or whatever - I think people can easily distinguish between those that are political patronage and those that are for "normal people". They perhaps should be published in a separate list or something though to make that more clear.
My problem is with the Peerages. It's clear some people just want the title and dignity so I think there should be a version of a Life Peerage that doesn't come with automatic seat in the Lords. There should also perhaps be a strict limit in law of the amount of Life Peers who can sit in the House at any one time.
I guess it could be achieved now by setting an expectation now that some/all people who are granted Life Peerages should immediately take the steps to resign from the House.
The Lords could be made to be workable based on proportional representation of the previous GE. The current bunch keep their honours but only the nominated set from each party can legislate or participate.
No. One of the main benefits of the current setup is that the government (no matter what party) doesn't have a working majority in the House of Lords - that means that every now and then the Lords will vote against the Government, and that level of ping-pong compromise gives us better laws. If the HoL was in the same proportions as the HoC that would basically never happen.
@@DylanSargesson You think the entitled and ennobled are not generally conservative given their age and current status?
@@stevenhoward3358 most Lords don't take the government whip, Conservative party has around 200 in a chamber of around 800. The Liberal Democrats for example are massively over represented in the Lords in comparison to their recent Commons performances.
@@DylanSargesson but you have conveniently skipped over the fact that most entitled and ennobled people have accumulated wealth and a predominantly conservative outlook which probably taints the way they view legislation as it passes through the chambers.
the 'Cash for Honours' scandal (which surfaced after several men nominated for life peerages by Tony Blair in 2006 were rejected by the House of Lords Appointments Commission) meant that Tony Blair did not submit a Resignation Honours list in 2007
One wonders how much money (or favours) has changed hands with regards Johnson and Truss. We'll probably never know as I suspect they learnt those lessons.
This should be pointed out somewhere in the pod. He’s being deliberately misleading. I’m sure there’s worse but that doesn’t stop what Blair did as being wrong
Alastair and Rory, I’d like to recommend that you interview Fiona Hill, a fellow Brit who has deep insight into DJT as well as Putin and Ukraine, to discuss to any of those topics, or others with you. In addition, she would increase the number of well-informed women to grace your podcast (which by the way I thoroughly enjoy and look forward to).
Fiona Hill was interviewed on Leading by AC and RS in Feb 2023. Available on Apple podcast. Not all TRIP or Leading episodes have been uploaded on YT.
@@royjames4224 thanks, I’ll look for that!
Now that would be a class show .she is Brilliant .
Reflecting on Rory's remarks re. Lords, if clear parameters of worth existed, and if sitting lords failed to match up, should not they be prohibited from their right to vote?
Do you have a list of elections as a short clip 😮😮😊
I am curious how the Houti attacks are affecting Jordan. Aqaba is their only port, right next to Eilat.
When you interviewed Ed Davey about'leading', did you ask him about his time as Post Office Minister, I couldn't see it in the transcript? Did that episode show him as a great leader while postmasters suffered such prejudice and injustice or was it just a shallow puff piece. It puts you to shame to miss out such an important issue. Of course, Paula Vennals (CEO of PO) received a CBE for services to the Post Office in 2019, but hardly surprising these days.
Perhaps Keir Starmer just needs to concentrate on cleaning up parliament and the rogue Health Services while in opposition, and checking that civil service plans actually exist before he makes any election pledges this year.
Genuine query. Was Harold Wilson already started on the decline caused by dementia, by the time he made a resignation honours list??
Certainly. But then again, at that time it was a qualification.
Being sent to the House of Lords should be taken out of the Governments hands. If the Lords are meant to act as a check and balance to the Commons then why should the Commons have the choice to 'load' their own preferential candidate?
Also, wouldn't it make sense to put a limit on the number of Lords - the same as MP's plus one? - and only allow for new admissions when a seat becomes available?
Tony's cronies spring to mind.
Would love to see a live stream one in Iraq and one in Afghanistan talking about empire, cronyism, abuse of government oh the irony 🤔🤣😂
Great show.
Rory, Although I was in primary school at the time, me thinks Harold Wilson had advancing Alzheimer's by the time he resigned, so while you can throw mud at the labour party's resignation honours list that followed his resignation it's a bit off to sully Wilson's reputation on that score.
How to reform the honours system ? Take it out of the hands of politicians. And replace the House of Lords with a title-free elected body.
The question would then be which House has priority and how to resolve conflicts between the two?
@@betperrins7528 the second chamber would have the same rights and responsibilities as the present House of Lords. It would be a revising chamber. Could be elected by the regions.
@@paulinegibson7010a problem with elected 2nd house is that money becomes the entry qualification as money pays for advertising and propaganda.
Also Belgian elections in June.
The best awards system money can buy
Another interesting conversation but Rory needs to sort out that bloody enormous spider in the corner above his bookshelf 😱.
When Campbell put himself forward as the voice of reason. You know you are in trouble.
Logical Fallacy
Why? He talks sense.
Like you are lol
Thank you for your podcasts - Touching on the terrible loss of life in Gaza. I feel the stories coming out from Gaza is controlled by Hamas and possibly that by IDF. Hamas are coming out of this terrible situation as the better guys. Please bear in mind Hamas would soon throw you or others who would question there motives off a high rise building in the past and now if there are any left. There are no good guys in war so lest have a better discussion on this.
Alastair, your comment about Rugby League Knights, NZ doesn’t fare much better but we have a couple here for services to the game including Graham Lowe the former Kiwis and Queensland coach… but still very much second class citizens to Union.
"Shame them into not doing it" how would that work with Johnson?
It's not rocket science to work out how to reform the honours list. Remove the name 'Empire' from the honours name, ban major party donors from receiving honours, stop the practice of Anglican Bishops being entitled to sit in the Lords, remove the privilege of an outgoing PM having an honours list and have the annual honours list vetted to ensure it meets a basic standard for deserving the accolade and becoming a lifetime member of the legislature. Also have ability to strip members of the Lords of access and voting rights for actions which bring the institution into disrepute.
Not sure what reactions this might have but i really believe David Miliband still has much to offer and contribute to a Labour government
Daniel Hannan? That drip??? Jesus!
An election in Canada is also very possible this year
Question: Has the House of Lords still got a morgue just down the corridor from the back door of it's chamber? Have heard quite a few have pegged out in their puce seats. BTW - RIP Glynis Johns, 100.
Tesla's current batteries are less than 5% cobalt. However, their new 4680 batteries, which they are ramping up production now, will be totally cobalt free. Also Tesla now recycles 100% of their batteries so all cobalt is recycled
The honours system should be purely the monarchs power not the prime minister or anything to do with the commons or hofL. Leaving it for the monarch to dish out is at least consistent with our past. Honours should be for events such as the knight who wins a great battle, the jouster who wins the tournament on the anniversary of kings coronation, the popular playwright of the day, or the farmer who gives food to the poor etc. those events are the modern day equivalents of the winning sportsman, musician or charitable actor. Then come the end of the year put out a big state banquet for them. There’s too much potential for cronyism with parties like labour and tories. I wouldn’t expect such issues with the monarch being solely responsible for the honours system. They’d want to ensure the integrity of the event whereas labour and the tories seek to use the system to enhance electoral prospects
No-one should receive honours, everyone is equal
Why
@@simony2801 why is everyone equal?
The equal party. Has a nice ring to it. I'd vote for them
@@tinmachine693 the Green Party essentially
Communism claims that all citizens are equal. However, in the real world, we find that some people are more equal than others.
Perhaps Cummings will advise Rishi Sunak to press for "Proportional Representation"!?
if you think the House of Lords is crazy because of Liz Truss' resignation honours, then you haven't been paying attention. There are people who sit in there by right of just being born. the whole thing needs to be abolished, along with the oppressive UK class system. and the royalty while we're at it.
Lol, good luck with that
Look forward to Guy ...
Can you get the Baroness of Talk Talk on?
07:42 - The only truly correct solution is to abolish the unelected "House of Lords". I am aware that discussions in the "House of Lords" are often less "confrontational" than what we see in the "House of Commons". But, the fact remains that honours given to supporters and cronies undermine the whole "honours system".
Has the House of Lords ever had a debate about abolishing themselves?
The UK honours system is quite frankly obsolete.
The Lavender list.......Marcia Falkender.
39:32 The Janjueed - the cavalry from hell.
The Honoured List: the Heros and the Zero