I came to this channel for the start of the 7mm project. But I've been watching these videos and I'm getting a ton of information that I never even thought about. Thank you.
You're welcome! That's the point Mark. We're trying to set an example of what "high quality information" SHOULD look like. There are millions of shallow, pointless videos out there. We don't need to contribute to that pile.
I have followed your development of the 22 Nosler phase of your endeavor, and the 22 Nosler is a great cartridge as noted by your data. I have a gas gun in 22 Nosler that I use for varmint hunting and target, and concur that your choice of of the caliber is amazing. Your rifle is amazing! Continued success.
Found this 22 Nosler series really interesting even though I have never even seen one in the wild. Love reloading and shooting so found this fascinating. Have to admit it has opened my eyes to how good these little rounds can be properly set up. I have a 260 and my wife a 6.5x55 so can see us getting some kind of 22 centerfire for practice. Just got a 6.8 Western that I'm liking a lot so it was nice to see you giving it some love in your chart. It hits a sweet spot for performance while still having mild recoil, love the round. ADG is bringing brass to the market this fall so we can have top notch brass soon. The 7mm series you are doing sounds awesome and will be watching for the videos as you drop them. Thanks for all you are doing and sharing your findings with us.
Thank you for the positive feedback Gerry. That's why we started the project in the first place. These little cartridge and bullet combinations have amazing performance potential that is extremely relevant to the average 300 to 600yd hunter. This is my main gripe with the long range "industry" in general. The people with the most influence, waste time comparing drop charts and touting things they have barely explored. Then they profess it to their loyal masses like it's indisputable truth. When in reality, it's incomplete, misleading and dishonest at best. My goal with the 7mm Series is to set a new standard for how things should be compared with COMPLETE Data and drag you all along, kicking and screaming if necessary. I'm happy you appreciate it, thanks for coming along.
Thank you for that. You taught me something today. That bullet would require a 7" Twist though, which would almost push you into a custom rifle as there are very few 7" Twist Bolt Action Factory rifles available. And as you already mentioned a factory length barrel will not provide the velocity required to match our 22 Nosler hit probabilities. Thanks for watching.
@@LittleCrowGunworks 8 twist will stabilize it. It's the older tangent ogive design, not the long sleek sexy secant ogives. Measured 100 of them, the mean and median OAL was 1.0630", longest was 1.0710", shortest was 1.0545". BTO was 0.6765" for mean and median, max 0.6785", min 0.6745". Can be loaded as short as 2.158" COAL(1.761" CBTO) in .223/5.56. The factory offering is ok-ish, definitely on the slow side(2610-ish FPS from a 20"). If you're trying to shoot tiny groups there are better offerings. If you want to do tiny groups at long range, I wouldn't go with 223/5.56 if you can help it. The 22 nosler was definitely a good choice on your part.
The spreadsheet that you show with the hit probability is sold gold. Does that come with the Applied Ballistics Analytics program or is that data that you pulled from the software and compiled in one spreadsheet? Also is that the $200 software that I see? Thanks
Thank you! No I made that spreadsheet before we even built the 22 Nosler test rifle. That's why we did the entire project. I figured out that we could duplicate big game hit probabilities out to 600yds with a 22 Nosler. Knowing that we would be doing future series on big game rifles and setting a 600yd ethical limit. That way we can make you a training rifle that you can shoot a lot of volume AND we can make you an identical big game hunting rifle that looks and feels the same as your training rifle. Correct, the AB Analytics Package for $200.
Question Tim, now remember I know fck all about most of this stuff, was wondering how would a 223wssm compare with the others, thanks mate, cheers Yogi 🤙✌️
A 223 WSSM will have a more "normal" twist rate of 1:10 or so. Which will limit the bullet choices to lighter, faster, but low BC options. I had a line on the chart with 22-250 Ackley and a 50gr bullet. The 223 WSSM would be VERY similar. Unless you get a new barrel with a fast twist like 1:7 or 1:7.5, then you could use the 75 or 80gr ELDM and it would be very similar to the 22 Creedmoor on the bottom of the chart. Cheers
Now that 22 creedmoor is saami approved and taking into consideration how much Hornady lies about thier velocities (3285 fps 80eldx). Would it be close to the same as the 22 nosler?
I guess we will have to wait and see. It wouldn't surprise me if their factory ammo in a 24" barrel is similar to our fast 28" velocities with the 22 Nosler. The 3550 fps with an 80gr I had on this spreadsheet is max velocity with a 30" barrel and stomping on it. If you're handloading, getting to 3285 with an 80gr in even a 24" barrel should be reachable at a max charge of slow burning powder. Getting there in a 26" barrel should be no problem.
Pretty cool information. Speaking of practice cartridges are there any more common ones you would recommend from a budget friendly factory rifle? I have a 257wby, 6.5x300wby, 300wby that Imay need a rebarrel on, 6.5prc, 6.5wby rpm, and a few others including a 30-06 I may buy. My 6.5x300wby likes 127lrx, 156 berger, and my favorite monno 125gr hammer hunter. I don't know which i should try to make into an extended range rifle. Which would you recommend out of those options? Another question would be, would you consider a 7mm-08 to be better further out than a 308? That 257wby you have is a beast. Apparently the double radius shoulder doesn't keep you from getting accuracy. I didn't recognize the type of bullet you use in it. To more questions lol What brand barrel do you believe is best? And are these tables available in an easier to read format? Damn, I've reloaded a ton of different cartridges, but only for typical hunting ranges, and I know nothing about long range. Thanks for the great content.
Thanks for the feedback. I made that chart, so the only format I can offer is what you already saw and utilizing the pause button. All of this data is available if you purchase one of the 22 Nosler rifles. There are many excellent barrel brands out there. Many people say Bartlein, Krieger and Brux are the best. But the average person, can't reload or shoot well enough to see the difference between one of those three vs anyone else's barrel. As far as budget friendly, practice options I would say a Browning X-Bolt Max Long Range in 6.5 Creedmoor. What big game rifle you should try to make into an extended range rifle depends more on the rifle design than the cartridge. Not all rifles are easy to shoot accurately at long range. Watch the 22 Nosler Full Custom Showcase videos. Notice the shape of the rifle stocks. That shape, is easy to shoot accurately at long range. Any other shape, adds complications.
Nope. No factory ammo. That was a requirement. Long range factory ammo AND handload performance that met the drift and hit probability numbers. The fast twist 22-250AI would be 100 fps or so slower than the 22 Creedmoor when both are handloaded to the max with equal barrel lengths.
Did you miss the part where we repeatedly tested the factory 85gr RDF and I talked about it on this video? We selected the 22 Nosler because it meets the criteria with handloads AND Factory Ammo.
I came to this channel for the start of the 7mm project. But I've been watching these videos and I'm getting a ton of information that I never even thought about. Thank you.
You're welcome!
That's the point Mark. We're trying to set an example of what "high quality information" SHOULD look like.
There are millions of shallow, pointless videos out there. We don't need to contribute to that pile.
I have followed your development of the 22 Nosler phase of your endeavor, and the 22 Nosler is a great cartridge as noted by your data. I have a gas gun in 22 Nosler that I use for varmint hunting and target, and concur that your choice of of the caliber is amazing. Your rifle is amazing! Continued success.
Thank you for the continued support. As I said, this little
cartridge exceeded my expectations.
That was great !
Thank you!
That’s awesome!! Thanks!!
Glad you like it! Thanks for watching.
Found this 22 Nosler series really interesting even though I have never even seen one in the wild. Love reloading and shooting so found this fascinating. Have to admit it has opened my eyes to how good these little rounds can be properly set up. I have a 260 and my wife a 6.5x55 so can see us getting some kind of 22 centerfire for practice. Just got a 6.8 Western that I'm liking a lot so it was nice to see you giving it some love in your chart. It hits a sweet spot for performance while still having mild recoil, love the round. ADG is bringing brass to the market this fall so we can have top notch brass soon.
The 7mm series you are doing sounds awesome and will be watching for the videos as you drop them. Thanks for all you are doing and sharing your findings with us.
Thank you for the positive feedback Gerry. That's why we started the project in the first place. These little cartridge and bullet combinations have amazing performance potential that is extremely relevant to the average 300 to 600yd hunter.
This is my main gripe with the long range "industry" in general. The people with the most influence, waste time comparing drop charts and touting things they have barely explored. Then they profess it to their loyal masses like it's indisputable truth. When in reality, it's incomplete, misleading and dishonest at best. My goal with the 7mm Series is to set a new standard for how things should be compared with COMPLETE Data and drag you all along, kicking and screaming if necessary.
I'm happy you appreciate it, thanks for coming along.
Barnes loads their 85 gr match burner for 223. It's not advertised to be going very fast. But it does exist.
Thank you for that. You taught me something today. That bullet would require a 7" Twist though, which would almost push you into a custom rifle as there are very few 7" Twist Bolt Action Factory rifles available.
And as you already mentioned a factory length barrel will not provide the velocity required to match our 22 Nosler hit probabilities.
Thanks for watching.
@@LittleCrowGunworks 8 twist will stabilize it. It's the older tangent ogive design, not the long sleek sexy secant ogives. Measured 100 of them, the mean and median OAL was 1.0630", longest was 1.0710", shortest was 1.0545". BTO was 0.6765" for mean and median, max 0.6785", min 0.6745". Can be loaded as short as 2.158" COAL(1.761" CBTO) in .223/5.56. The factory offering is ok-ish, definitely on the slow side(2610-ish FPS from a 20"). If you're trying to shoot tiny groups there are better offerings. If you want to do tiny groups at long range, I wouldn't go with 223/5.56 if you can help it. The 22 nosler was definitely a good choice on your part.
I really love getting all this information. It's hard to tell with the BS now a days. Thanks agin.
Thanks for the support Terry.
Great vid Tim, super interesting mate, would have never realised this and that 22 Nosler is wicked, take care and stay safe mate cheers Yogi 🤙✌️
Thanks mate, the 22 Nosler with the right bullet and a long barrel, is wicked. The context matters. Cheers
The spreadsheet that you show with the hit probability is sold gold. Does that come with the Applied Ballistics Analytics program or is that data that you pulled from the software and compiled in one spreadsheet? Also is that the $200 software that I see? Thanks
Thank you!
No I made that spreadsheet before we even built the 22 Nosler test rifle. That's why we did the entire project. I figured out that we could duplicate big game hit probabilities out to 600yds with a 22 Nosler. Knowing that we would be doing future series on big game rifles and setting a 600yd ethical limit. That way we can make you a training rifle that you can shoot a lot of volume AND we can make you an identical big game hunting rifle that looks and feels the same as your training rifle.
Correct, the AB Analytics Package for $200.
Question Tim, now remember I know fck all about most of this stuff, was wondering how would a 223wssm compare with the others, thanks mate, cheers Yogi 🤙✌️
A 223 WSSM will have a more "normal" twist rate of 1:10 or so. Which will limit the bullet choices to lighter, faster, but low BC options. I had a line on the chart with 22-250 Ackley and a 50gr bullet. The 223 WSSM would be VERY similar. Unless you get a new barrel with a fast twist like 1:7 or 1:7.5, then you could use the 75 or 80gr ELDM and it would be very similar to the 22 Creedmoor on the bottom of the chart. Cheers
Now that 22 creedmoor is saami approved and taking into consideration how much Hornady lies about thier velocities (3285 fps 80eldx). Would it be close to the same as the 22 nosler?
I guess we will have to wait and see. It wouldn't surprise me if their factory ammo in a 24" barrel is similar to our fast 28" velocities with the 22 Nosler.
The 3550 fps with an 80gr I had on this spreadsheet is max velocity with a 30" barrel and stomping on it. If you're handloading, getting to 3285 with an 80gr in even a 24" barrel should be reachable at a max charge of slow burning powder. Getting there in a 26" barrel should be no problem.
Pretty cool information.
Speaking of practice cartridges are there any more common ones you would recommend from a budget friendly factory rifle?
I have a 257wby, 6.5x300wby, 300wby that Imay need a rebarrel on, 6.5prc, 6.5wby rpm, and a few others including a 30-06 I may buy.
My 6.5x300wby likes 127lrx, 156 berger, and my favorite monno 125gr hammer hunter.
I don't know which i should try to make into an extended range rifle.
Which would you recommend out of those options?
Another question would be, would you consider a 7mm-08 to be better further out than a 308?
That 257wby you have is a beast. Apparently the double radius shoulder doesn't keep you from getting accuracy.
I didn't recognize the type of bullet you use in it.
To more questions lol
What brand barrel do you believe is best?
And are these tables available in an easier to read format?
Damn, I've reloaded a ton of different cartridges, but only for typical hunting ranges, and I know nothing about long range.
Thanks for the great content.
Thanks for the feedback. I made that chart, so the only format I can offer is what you already saw and utilizing the pause button. All of this data is available if you purchase one of the 22 Nosler rifles.
There are many excellent barrel brands out there. Many people say Bartlein, Krieger and Brux are the best. But the average person, can't reload or shoot well enough to see the difference between one of those three vs anyone else's barrel.
As far as budget friendly, practice options I would say a Browning X-Bolt Max Long Range in 6.5 Creedmoor.
What big game rifle you should try to make into an extended range rifle depends more on the rifle design than the cartridge. Not all rifles are easy to shoot accurately at long range. Watch the 22 Nosler Full Custom Showcase videos. Notice the shape of the rifle stocks. That shape, is easy to shoot accurately at long range. Any other shape, adds complications.
@@LittleCrowGunworks thanks!
Barrel life from 22 nosler ? Oh, you just answered it 3000 to 4000 rounds
Yep, slightly less than a 223 Rem. It's a great option if you have a high volume application like Prairie Dogs.
? No fast twist 22-250 AI
Nope. No factory ammo. That was a requirement.
Long range factory ammo AND handload performance that met the drift and hit probability numbers. The fast twist 22-250AI would be 100 fps or so slower than the 22 Creedmoor when both are handloaded to the max with equal barrel lengths.
Yes but aren't you hand loading the 22 nosler?
3200 ft with a 88 grain heel DM would smoke pretty much everything on the board on the 22 side
Did you miss the part where we repeatedly tested the factory 85gr RDF and I talked about it on this video?
We selected the 22 Nosler because it meets the criteria with handloads AND Factory Ammo.
First