Inverter vs purely transformer comparison and efficiency testing.
Vložit
- čas přidán 28. 06. 2024
- In this long episode we compare & contrast 2 modern inverter welders to a older transformer machine.
0:00:00 Intro
0:02:53 Book learning: whats a transformer
0:07:14 Book learning:inverter vs transformer
0:25:14 Visual inspection of a transformer machine
0:41:07 Visual inspection of a inverter
0:48:16 The quality of the welds
0:52:56 Lets test the efficiencies between the two
1:01:15 What is power factor
1:08:10 Test results
1:15:15 Conclusion
Being a farmer, I would rather have the transformer machine because of the longevity of it. I am not too worried about efficiency; I am worried about dependability.
Agreed , the old Dial-Arc will still be going strong long after a person burns out 3 inverter welders . 😃
I've had equipment break out in a field, where I was able to run 500' of 12g wire to get it welded up with an inverter, to bring it back and do a real nice deep good fix with 3/16 rods back at the garage with the dialarc (assuming it was heavy, lots of fixes are easily good enough that needed thinner.) You sure aren't mobile with that heavy bitch. (like 400lb with wheels.) Even if you wanted to play a generator and welder game, you aren't getting the amps you need out there for the dialarc. There is no 30 amp>90 amp surge on any generator. I'd submit you should have both.
Wowwwwww there’s not a video or classroom that I’ve seen yet that has giving us this type of detailed knowledge thank u we appreciate u God Bless always 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽
You’re welcome and I am glad you enjoyed it. Without a doubt welders can be immensely complicated, but the info in the video will help explain how many work. There will always be outliers that function under different principals. There were a lot of oddball designs I left out because the video would have been 3 hours long lol. The cool thing is once you know how things work a little bit better you can understand more about all electrical stuff not just welders 😀. Also, shortly I will have a video out using an oscilloscope on the dial arc to show how it produces DC and how it smooths it out. I talked about how it did but to see the actual wave form on a screen will really help understand what’s going on 😀
There are a number of ways to get several fixed voltages and amps out of a transformer. Multiple input or output windings are common. Center tapped output windings are used too. The really old GE welders that were vertical metal cases that looked like small water heaters, had a crank on the top that changed the output, one place where the expression “crank it up” came from. Very good explanation, Greg. I’m not concerned about my welders not lasting 40 years. Industry doesn’t care either. Back when I started welding in 1973, all we had was transformer machines, so we never thought about it. But the industry didn’t advance much over the decades, so you could keep an old machine for a long time as nothing better was out there except in minor ways. But modern machines change every few years, so people don’t want to keep their welders for 40 years. It’s like Tv, for much of my life, Tv was 640 x 380 resolution, and you would really only get about half that on your cathode ray rube screen. Nothing changed for decades except for bigger tubes with pretty much petered out at 36 inches, except for a few very expensive 40 inch models. So we kept out TVs for a long time. When hi def came out, everything changed. Every few years higher rez came as well as larger screens and newer tech. Who wants to keep a Tv for 20-25 years anymore? No one. Pricing is another thing. Both welders and TVs cost much less (inflation adjusted) than they did in the early 1980s. The Miller you have would be a $3,000 machine today, if not more. Who would want to pay that for what they would be getting?
I definitely glossed over on the multiple taps on the transformer, thanks for mentioning that, the tombstones use those. The downside to that is fixed amperage outputs and far less adjustability. Those old tombstones are an even simpler version of that dial arc, which is why they never break lol. The downside being what you were talking about, technology moves on and sticking with the old is rarely a benefit. I am with you on your opinions, I don’t care if my new welders lasts 40 years, and I know they won’t. The capability they give and the efficiency they have, pay for themselves. With the amount of welding I do it would take 2-3 years to pay off a esab rogue 200 over a used transformer machine, just in the electric usage. It’s under warranty to that point, so I would come out ahead after that lol.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg eh, you do a really good job of explaining these sort of things. Actually, how you do all of this is different from anyone else I’ve seen. We all miss points now and then.
I'm an electrician, I'm very impressed with you're grasp and ease of conveying the material. You would have no problem faking it at any A/C theory class, I think you missed your calling
What's A/C theory?
@@privateassman8839 how alternating current systems work. The relationship of voltage and current with frequency. Much of what Greg covered with his power factor lesson
@@privateassman8839I think he did a typo. AC theory is the electrical theories surrounding alternating current electricity.
Agreed. In my youth (many years ago) I had electrical trades and electronic repair training, from HS to Trade Schools to the Military, and he explains things as clearly or better than many of the instructors I had.
@@ianbelletti6241 Oh thanks
Recently i was troubleshooting and old golf cart charger. Came across something called a swamping capacitor. Was a way to use the magnetic permiabilty and the saturation of the core to regulate the charge current. Basically a way to waste away energy to protect the equipment from too much current. Not something many engineers would choose to use today, but i fixed it, you know, like always
The Lincoln ideal arc 300/300 tig from the 70's uses a saturated core transformer to help finely adjust the amp setting .
Thanks for your previous advice Greg. I ran some FCAW beads yesterday and today following the conclusions you came to in your stringer vs weave MIG video. I got much better results! I was welding some 1/8" tubing to 3/16" plate. I was cut diagonally, so half the tubing was thicker than its walls, and half was its wall thickness. I weaved the thin parts, and stringered the thick parts. I found an exteme drag angle gave less burn-through than 90deg or push, and used a work angle where my wire was almost perpendicular to the 3/16" plate. I'm still getting there, but these were the most consistent, strongest, and cleanes welds I've done so far. I even had seamless starts and ends because I backstitched. 😊
Glad to hear that. Flux core can have pretty stout penetration and that can make it a handful to tie things together without making holes on thick/thin material. Especially if you have odd objects and varying thicknesses. Ultimately what will happen is you will get the settings 90% correct, and use your travel speed to control everything else. As you hit a thinner part you will move faster because you will recognize the weld is hotter. Even though faster movement means smaller deposited weld, the material is thinner so you won’t lose any strength. It just takes time to use travel speed to control things. Ideally 80-90% should be proper settings and 10-20% should be travel speed 😀
What I've found in my experience is if you have a 100% duty inverter welder with a hot start you can barely if at all tell the difference from it and an old school transformer welder. On an inverter welder without a hot start you will find it a pain in the butt to strike your weld, and anything under 100% duty will have you pulling your hair out before the day is over... This is because the big old welders have plenty of power to deliver so they start instantly, and some of the cheaper inverter welders seem to build up power over time until it overheats because of lack of duty and stops you.
The small, cheap welders give full power upon startup. But volts times amps is power, which is watts. So you can have two welders with the same output amps can have different power output, as the cheap little welder puts out lower voltage. 24 volts times 200 amps is 4,800 watts. 28 volts times 200 amps is 5,400 watts. So the better welder has more output power. Most really big welders have a 60% duty cycle at highest output. Some do go higher. But really, a welder isn’t usually used at full output.
@@melgross I agree, and yes it's incredibly rare to see a welder with full duty at max output, but it's also more common for the bigger old welders to take a beating at nearly full load and never miss a lick whereas something like a Chinese inverter welder will be like 10sec run 30 minutes cool down when you try the same. (You will figure it out the hard way if you ever try to weld on something like heavy equipment with 3/16" 7018 pushing over 200amps)
@@Megellin I certainly agree when it comes to cheap equipment. But it’s also not fair to compare equipment that’s not like to like. So we really need to compare modern inverter welders that are made for constant high output with these old dinosaurs. A 300 amp ESAB Warrior model will keep up very happily and so will the equivalent from other major manufacturers. And if we want to go crazy, we can compare 400, 500 and even higher rated models. I would never compare a $200 welder with a $3,000 one of any vintage at higher power levels, particularly. I’m sure you wouldn’t either.
@@melgross depends, the reason I'm tempted to compare a cheap inverter welder to those "dinosaurs" is because I can go to an estate sale and pick up a "dinosaur" that still works well for like $500, and it can outperform most $1000+ inverter welders which I never rarely see in estate or yard sales at good prices, and when I do they are usually broken.
@@Megellinmy Chinese everlast sti200 inverter welder can do 200amps(max output) at 35% duty cycle. It also has hot start and some other feature to boost amps when your getting short arcs. It’s a damn good machine for the $350 I paid for it. I got my foot in the door for welding with an affordable price. Also states It has 70v open voltage. I’ll have to double check that with my multi meter.
Long long time ago studied welding technology. Mostly theoretical but a little hands on experience. For stick welding an old rotating motor generator was used. 3 phase in, DC out.
The easiest welder to use for a newbie. The brute force of the rotating inertia kept an arc whatever you did. With soft YD start it was ease on the mains fuses.
Weighting more than half a ton and three times larger than a comparable transformer.
Excellent instructional video, Greg, thanks. I'm a retired engineer and wanted to add that when running on a battery/inverter you will draw down the battery at the full VA power, all that reactive power does show up in battery draw down. Some of your viewers might be considering a portable power type unit for a smaller welder. For that application you'd better buy a PF corrected welder! I have tested this myself with my own inverter design after being told this by a major inverter brand design engineer. I confirmed that he was right!
Thanks again for the outstanding and interesting work!
Great thoughts on the battery pack, I never even thought of that. The inverter packs are getting bigger/more capacity/power output all the time, and it won’t be long before it’s feasible to run welders on common ones. The lack of PFC would be hugely detrimental on something like that.
There is one commercial portable welder that is lithium battery powered already on the market that I've only seen on youtube.. Direct from battery tor DC weldiing is the most power efficient way to go since DC to DC conversion has no power factor and can be the highest efficiency type buck converter/regulator. I do stick welding from 36V /110ah in marine batteries with a strip/penal resistor to adjust current and a big gapped toroidal transformer core choke for arc stabilization. Same on 24V in batteries (separate output connection) for scratch start TIG which I'm just learning. Its fine for the small projects I have. I can recharge a bit while doing prep or other busy work. I carry it in my tractor bucket for field work/repairs. Simple but effective.
DeWalt sells a battery unit for the ESAB Rogue. Not sure offhand which one. Works well, I’ve been told. It’s funny because both companies have the same yellow and black color scheme, so they look like they belong together, welder on top of the battery unit.
That's interesting about the DeWalt battery for the ESAB Rogue, Mel, thanks. I sure do appreciate the high quality technical educational content that Greg creates. This one was a complex topic and he did it SO well!
Reactive power does not draw down the battery on an inverter. The reactive energy gets stored in the inductance and capacitance of the circuit and is not lost. The battery gets drawn down according to the power use, ie Watts, not VA.
Your channel is top notch. Such a good depth of knowledge conveyed simple enough for the average diy’r to understand
Thanks for the kind words. It can be difficult to explain complex things in a simple manner (especially because there is so much I don’t understand about what goes on behind the scenes of electricity). Then of course it’s a struggle to know what to include and what to omit. The great thing is there are some exceptionally smart people that comment on the videos and their information really fills the gaps of what I left out or got wrong. The great thing is a bit more understanding of how stuff works opens up a much better understanding of how the world works 😀
This was a excellent walkthrough the functional design of the different zypes of machine. Absolutely great! And always on the point, never took it to deep, never "over-simplified". You are a teach er like one should be!
Explained in a very simple way! 👍
Excellent video. Being old school learned a lot about the different welders. Now I understand why they call the inverter welders, high frequency welders.
Lincoln Coffee Pot on 3ph is the answer ! Seriously , this was a very good instructional video . Thanks
No problem 😀.
You should definitely make a video on how generator welders work, based on the way you explained it to me I think a lot of people would definitely benefit from it!
I will be shooting such a video this week and as fast as I can edit it and upload it is when it will be out (within 10 days) 😀
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Also, maybe include the Lincoln 300 commander that claims three-phase to single-phase and chopper technology?
Great video. I learned a lot of new information from this one, thank you for sharing your knowledge
Awesome vid, mate. I learned a lot. Thanks
Really interesting and informative. Very helpful. You do a good job explaining it. Thanks a lot.
No problem, I am glad you enjoyed the video 😀
Ton of info in this one- Thanks Greg!
No problem 😃
Excellent video and great information given many thanks 😊
Good education video.
Old geezer learning still.
Thanks, never stop learning 😀
I used to weld with a Dialarc 250. I burnt a rod of rod with it. I now have several Everlast welders. The only thing I miss is AC, which the inverter machines won't do.
As far as hard start is concerned, most inverter welders have an "inductance" setting, which helps. The inverter welder has more repeatable settings. When you turn up the knob on the Dialarc to do an adjustment you never know exactly how much it is going to go up. WIth an inverter you do and you can go back to the old setting.
Yep, the modern setup of a dial and an amp read out is nice. I used to have an ideal arc 250 Lincoln and that sucker was all over the board for output lol. The dial arc seems far more accurate but it’s still plus or minus 5amps or more. Not to mention I am sure the hotter it gets the more it’s off lol.
You did an excellent job explaining the Welder difference, in my opinion, mate.😊 GOOD VIDEO
Glad you liked it. The fun part was testing everything. To me it’s pretty amazing what a modern inverter can do. I like that dial arc a lot (it welds really well) but no way would I trade that rogue 200 for one, it’s simply too convenient, and useful.
Way back in the early 1980's I ordered a Dialarc 250 HF with High frequency for stick and tig welding. I also ordered it with power factor correction for a few centavos more. Well worth the expense as it reduced the amperage draw by 20 to 25%. I still have the machine and it has and will serve me well.
Awesome that it has worked for you for that long, but not surprising because of how they are built. I definitely will be keeping mine for a long time. Once I can find a shop to buy I will be hooking it up and leaving it at a bench to be used for random jobs/teaching people 😀.
The Miller Dialarc welders were available with PF correction. Mine had it. It's just a big capacitor added to the input circuitry.
That’s correct, they are fairly uncommon, I have seen probably 40 ones without it for everyone with it. I have heard that it lowers the max amp draw to more reasonable levels but increases the lower output amperage loading. I tried to find test results of that setup but I think everyone is confused as to what they see on the input side. Right now my machine loads the input line at 33amps at 90a output, and pulls 5a at no load. People were saying it would pull 20a at idle with the capacitor. Which I think they are incorrectly looking at their meters. It’s probably producing a lot of reactive power with the capacitor with no load, but under a load it improves the power factor of the machine significantly. In a house the main benefit would be smaller wires and breaker, in a shop the benefit would be not being docked by the power company for poor power factor lol.
I have a big old welder .That was from my dad's Sunoco station in late 60s . And it looked old then . No idea what year it is. But it still works.
Dude, awesome video. Great explanation of power factor. Im a diyer learning how to weld and i appreciate the work you put into thes vids.
I have a video coming out this week dealing with generators and power factor. In part of the video I test two mig welders (one with power factor and one without) at the same settings. Obviously different outcomes with power loading 😀. Anyway I am glad you liked the videos. You have the right mindset, watch a bunch of videos and practice 😀. I will tell you what I tell everyone that’s learning to weld: the key is to be smooth & consistent in movement, and to practice. And most importantly expect to be frustrated a lot but don’t give up 👍
Awesome video!!! It was spot on from beginning to end, and well balanced too.
The Miller’s PF was better than I thought it would be. I was expecting something closer to 30-40 percent. The ESAB was about what I expected for a higher quality design and build. What surprised me was the Titanium 225’s efficiency, which I thought would have been better, but then again what do you expect for a $300 welder!
I was very impressed with the whole thing, and I really liked the sequence, and how you built on each principle in a very logical well presented way, including your graphics, and pop ups. Well done Greg, you are an awesome teacher, and I love your sense of humor and humble approach in all your videos. Thank You for everything you have taught me, and the welding community.
Thanks for the kind words. Once I get home tomorrow I will be getting on my laptop and getting back to you. Needless to say some serious setbacks have happened for me, but things will be ok.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg I’m sorry to hear you’re having a rough go of it. Like you said, hopefully you will be OK.
Very nice presentation, thank you!
You’re welcome 😀
Got both types except inverter MiG. This is as far as l know the most detailed and indepth comparison of the two types of technology.
And to be fair, a brilliant and informative video to make one ponder on the options. Saying that, new transformer machines were banned last year here in the UK. So unless you find old new stock or go secondhand you cannot buy a transformer based welder as a new unit anymore in the UK.
I diff my welding mask in your direction young man in respect!
Interesting that they were banned. From a realistic standpoint they are unbelievably inefficient, so I guess times change lol. Much like the old incandescent bulbs.
What a fascinating, informative and well presented video
Many kind thanks to you for taking the time to share this information us
No problem, I am glad you liked it 😃. It’s pretty crazy to think of how much power that particular dial arc machine consumes. 600 watt idle is more than every welder I own idling combined lol. Not to mention a modern inverter would probably output 160-170a at the same under load power consumption. The old transformer machines still weld excellent though 😀
@@makingmistakeswithgreg
I've just gone off grid, and am running from 20kw batties, a 8000 (yes thousand) inverter and solar and generator to input the power back to the batties
That's why I found your video so welcoming
You, running from a generator was obviously the inspiration for your video, and what a grate video it was.
Yes transformer are old school but still very needed
My 8000 whatt inverter has a transformer inside, the idle consumption is absolutely tiny believe it or not
It's a Schneider conext xw pluss.
Anyway, thanks again for your grate video
Thx, appreciate you being here doing that.
No problem 😀
Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge Sir!
You’re welcome, I am glad you enjoyed the video.
A lot to learn in this lesson young man. Very interesting to see the comparison charts for usage. It would appear, IGBT welders are the way forward, but, the better the brand quality the better the effiency.
In amongst my welding resources I have two transformer based Mig welders, three IGBT stick/Tig welders, one welder generator and one oil filled 180amp plus battery charger Oxford Bantam. The latter doesn't really have a "duty cycle". My oldest IGBT is an Oerlikon Presto 140G which is about 20yrs old. I bought it second hand four years ago and it has been a brilliant bit of kit. I may have to rethink my welders stock?
One of the things I have noticed over the years is that the way to make the best welds is to get a welder and do enough welding with it so that you know what it will do. I have welded on a countless number of machines and every one of them is slightly different. When you are very familiar with a machine you get the best performance with it. Without a doubt new machines offer a ton more adjustability, but a learning curve as well. Familiarity can go a long way to improve welds. 😀
Great content sir.
Wow, Electrical Engineering 101. Thank you for the PF lecture. I learnt a lot. I would like to see a video where you discuss why many inverter welders do not burn 6010 and 6011 rods well. The arc goes out quickly and it is difficult to burn the rod continuously.
You’re in luck, I did a video on just that, link below. The general reason is as follows: The primary reason many inverter welders won’t run 6010 is because they can’t maintain a closed circuit voltage of over 28v. The power supplies for tig and MiG welders function great at sub 26v. 6013/7018/7014 all run great at sub 26v. 6011 can hit 28v and 6010 is generally over 30 for a 1/8th rod. To make the welder capable of outputting 33v at 90 amps to run a 6010 requires one of a number of things to work, all of which cost money. It’s possible the welder could output 33v but it would be at 160amps or more, which is useless for running a 1/8th rod. The primary reason being the transformer winding ratio is not ideal and also the overall design had more basic rods in mind. To make matters worse many welders that are “all in ones” run 6010 poorly despite claiming they can run it. For best 6010 performance it takes a dedicated stick welder designed for higher output voltage at lower outputs.
czcams.com/video/qVr15sXRolo/video.htmlsi=wbFFXNCZCQT3CKLl
@@makingmistakeswithgregthanks man, I needed to hear that 😅. I bought 6013 which worked fine with my welder then I got 6010 and he said they are pathetic.
My 7018 rods also didn't work for the reasons I don't know. I am from Pakistan and my welder is good man but he needs a lot to learn. I will tell him this and I will buy him a heavy duty welding machine 😀. Probably transformer type
Awesome amount of information took some electronic classes in the navy muc( better information and instructions on this video thanks again
Glad you liked it 😀. I wish I could have seen a video like it years ago because it would have saved me a ton of time reading & testing things to figure out everything lol.
Great instructional video
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it 😀
Oh boy Greg. I just subscribed, you're gonna take off if you keep up the neat videos
Since welding and the workshop is what I do for fun, it’s nice to be able to share that with other people and hopefully inspire people to pickup tools themselves. I am pretty fortunate to be able to have a lot of nice tools and the ability to test things. I am hoping in the next year or so that I can find a new building to buy and start a full time shop. Time will tell.
Nice job🤛🏻
Amazing video. PF of the titanium was no surprise but the efficiency was was. Measurements sure show what's going on.
You did great with this. I hate trying to explain electricity to people that don't have a background in the field.
Thanks. I definitely had to do a lot of reading and talking with people far smarter than me to get a really good handle on what’s going on. It’s pretty crazy how complex things can get in a hurry lol.
Loved the solid Geek out. Fantastic video. I would choose the esab all day long.
It’s far more practical that’s for sure. The small inverter welders are my favorite welders to use. I have done hundreds of jobs with them and the practicality of the setup makes them the best for me. I can’t imagine hauling around a big transformer machine to help friends out and such.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg I been trying out the new Miller 142 MiG. Only 120 volts but it is light and far for several jobs. I like the digital display so I can fine tune my welds. I am considering an Esab Rogue 200 like you have.
Thank you for taking the time to explain the differences between the inverter vera the old transformer machine. I understand old electronics but didn’t keep up with the technology and I couldn’t tell you anything about the components of the new inverter machine. Been wanting to teach myself how to tig weld and I will have to buy a new inverter machine and my bobcat has the capability of tig welding but I don’t have the torch or any of the stuff needed. And the price of gasoline I’ll be getting a inverter type of machine. Thanks again you put lots of information in this video and it’s all good info.
No problem 😀. There are a ton of differences but the truth is old and new both can get the job done. The new modern machines are really efficient and for tig welding sake I prefer them. Speaking of tig I will be starting a how to tig weld video series soon. If you have decent experience with stick or mig tig isn’t that hard. Think of tig like learning to write. It took a while to get good at it and you sucked at the start. Once you got it the actual task isn’t that hard. You had to teach your hands how to move properly, which took time to develop. Tig is the same way, it just comes down to smooth movement, consistent movement, consistent arc gap, and consistent filler metal addition. Once you build the muscle memory it’s pretty easy. I am sure you will get it, and it’s definitely worth learning 😀
Excellent video,, I learn so much from your content. Do have to ask though, what is it about stick welding that we all love and can't seem to stop watching? Nostalgia? I dunno, just love it. Thanks for all the teaching, you are a great educator.
I think nostalgia might be it. Although I like tig welding the most, it’s not as satisfying as stick welding. To me stick welding reminds me of my father making it look easy welding steel with a buzz box and 6013. When later that night I went into the garage to try what he did, and I spent 3 hours sticking rods to scrap steel with zero progress lol.
You can't see electron flow, but you can see the effects of electron movement with an ammeter. Transformers operating at 350 kc/s are usually have powered iron cores, not laminated sheets. Ron W4BIN
Mag-Amp design was used on some machines for a while...Magnetic amplifier.....Look into that.....I repaired welders a long time including inverters......I never had formal electrical school training but did go to both Miller and Lincoln tech school and was certified by both. I never stopped trying to learn and comprehend what I was working on.....The old transformer based machines lasted forever....the inverters are not going to have the same life span......
My Miller 330AB/P has the magnetic amplifying transformer to control fine current adjustment. It’s a solid system. It’s a 1978 model. The only problem I’ve experienced is the bridge rectifier on the 36v control circuit has failed twice ($20 part) and the transmission capacitors for the hi freq went bad. I’ve had this machine for 20 years of good service. I personally will not buy any electronic machines for any real money. I can’t fix electrical but I’m lost with electronics. Plus modern Lincoln pc boards are encapsulated and are not serviceable. A friend had a 200A Lincoln mig that was months outta warranty when the $1200 main board failed. He scrapped it
@@mshort7087 I know all about the modern machines vs the old stuff. I have 3 machines at home. All inverters because I just wanted new. I hardly use them but they do work well.
Many Dialarcs (and Lincoln Idealarcs) remain in commercial/industrial use. Most reasons for going inverter involve mobility not cost. BTW Dialarc, Idealarc and even monsters like my 340 AB/P will run off a 50A source but not maxed out. The old machines cost less used than a replacement inverter board. Used machines are cheap enough to have both. Also worth noting if you already have a stout RPC (rotary phase converter) they will run transformer machines. (Shop Floor Talk fora have some useful threads). I have an RPC to run three phase machine tools and air compressors. In your manual (Miller and Lincoln have them for free download so get one for everything) info on breaker size etc for various three phase connections shows why that's worth considering. When I built my shop I had a new service placed on a pole with a breaker panel so powering large machinery is NBD (and getting power before shop makes building the shop much easier and more convenient).
If you want to run big rods or weld aluminum at high amps appropriate transformer machines are worth having. My old Miller will output 500 amps and the arc is delightful. It was 250 bucks because the seller saw a "three phase" sticker on a box mounted to it. I knew I could run it single phase because I download manuals BEFORE buying. It's the size of a fridge and weighs about 1300 lbs but those downsides only matter when moving it. Tip: A Tommy Gate can be "assisted" by a couple of ag jacks when (not grossly) overloaded for the popoff valve.
It's easy to accumulate used industrial welders with some looking. I have lighter machines too because covering all bases pays off.
All great thoughts, thanks for sharing 😃. I definitely like the way most of the older machines run. Right now I am doing some repair work for a shop on some heavy plate (1/2 to 3/4). I am using their miller goldstar 400 to both arc gouge and stick weld. It’s amazing how smooth the machine is, and how I can go from running a 1/4inch carbon rod to a 3/32 7018 with the machine making it seem effortless.
Great tip on the reading the manual/knowing the machine for 3 vs single phase. Years ago I scored an ideal arc Lincoln for a 100$ because the owner thought it was 3 phase only (it was wired for 3phase). I knew it could be easily rewired for single, which is exactly what I did lol.
Great info
Best to have both.
2 is definitely better than one 😀
Not a variac, it an inductive slug that changes the efficency of the transformer by adjusting the permiability of the core material used by the windings. A variac is basically an auto former with multiple taps accessed by a wiper and can actually increase the voltage although most only do so by a few volts. They are indispencible as a bench tool for anyone working with electronics and many service manuals expect one and call for procrdures that require them. Important to point out they do not provide isolation and a 1 to 1 transformer makes a nice paring to an autoformer for any techs bench
Thank you
12:00 electromotive force is the same as voltage. It’s the reason Ohms’s law is generally written as E=I*R. I’m guessing the shunt is a tap on the secondary.
Great!
Afraid to jinx it...pleasantly surprised there hasn't (yet) been a blue Miller fanboy coming to the defense of his beloved brand! Don't get me wrong, Miller is top notch equipment, and does have modern inverter welders-but thinking about it this way-this old transformer unit is a carbureted 1st-gen small-block going up against a modern fuel-injected, computer controlled V8. Better efficiencies and power output being the common denominator here. Technology marches along, generally for the better.
Without a doubt I like the simplicity of it, but I would be lying if I said I would take it over a modern stick welder lol.
Does not make sense to say abouts brands when we are talking about efficency and the technologies differences in welder machines. I have only inverters but as said the host, each machine its unique and take time to adapt or get accostumed to get the best perfomance in welding, I agree with the host too about using old machines as backups because are very reliable. Thanks a lot. (and i am a Miller Fanboy without Miller welders :P)
The reason why that choke coil on the new welder is so tiny is because high frequency signals are really easy to filter out. Also I'm going to say 90% those capacitors are for flattening out the bridge rectifier on the incoming 240v so the IGBT gets nice clean DC. What's really clever about the IGBT concept is by controlling the pulse width of the generated AC signal you can make a dirt simple transformer do so many tricks that are just impossible when you're dealing with 60hz and you have nothing but copper coils to work with.
Thanks for your thoughts on that. Being that I have minimal electrical background I appreciate all the tips and thoughts people leave. It definitely is very cool what can be accomplished with a simple transformer when you can manipulate the Ac going into it. Especially from a simple efficiency and physical size standpoint.
Hey thanks, I'm not that much of an expert, in fact your explanation of power factor is what finally made it click for me. Your video got me thinking, you could probably build an efficient "low tech" welder using a DC generator, The Zach Life channel recently went over a 1940s (I believe) Lincoln which had a physical generator on it, neat design.
Great video, makes me think it may be worth it to pick up a more modern welder than my grandfather's old tumbstone
The old machines are an excellent backup, or have always hooked up in the shop. The new welders have a lot of excellent features like hot start and adjustable arc force control that are really useful. Not to mention on a single 20a 120 outlet you can literally get 90-110 amps of output out of them (provided they have power factor correction). I like the old school welders but the newer stuff in many ways is a lot better.
Thanks Greg-
No problem 😀
There’s an Airco-branded equivalent of the Dialarc, called a “bumblebee…”
I’ve used one a few times. They run 6011s really good, and the same for 7018-AC (the 7018s you can find at, say, Löwes.)
I have seen those for sale occasionally. I am not exactly sure on what the partnership with miller was, but it’s very common to see orange painted machines that are similar to all the millers of the same vintage. Many times they had a few extra features over the millers equivalent.
I bought the cheapest Amazon fcaw welder I could find with the intentions of using it only for a single project. I have to tell you that 2 years later I've ran about 10 lb of 035 through it and cannot believe how impressive a Chinesium knock off welder could be for $70. Even if I had to replace this every 6 or 12 months, it's worth it! It's tiny and convenient and I can run it off my solar power to inverter.
It’s always a nice surprise when something lasts longer than expected 😀
Excellent video - incidentally EMF electromotive force is electrical pressure or what we now call voltage. That is why ohms law is e = ir
Thanks, glad you liked it 😀. It was fun to make and the results were quite interesting to me. It’s pretty crazy to think how power hungry the old dial arc is, 600w at idle and almost double the actual consumption under load. Definitely unexpected lol.
Thanks, a very interesting comparison. When houses or commercial premises were mainly fitted with fluorescent lights, those lights had power factor correction capacitors on board to compensate for the reactance of the choke. Electricity utilities charge for the total power, which includes reactive power. Therefore where much of the load is reactive, as it would be in fluorescent lighting installations without capacitors, the capacitors, as a result of improving the PF, lower the electricity bills.
Be aware most envert welders require a clean pure sine wave power supply. Plugging them in to a cheap non invert modified sine wave generator can easily burn up the electronics inside a IGBT invert welder. I have a really nice Everlast 221stI and it says never run it on a dirty power source from a gen set. It voids the warranty. So People looking to power a welder off a generator need to be aware the generator they need for a invert welder can be upto 3 times more expensive. That said I have welded over 30 plus years and I am never going to give up my everlast. It is such a great machine and it welds so very smooth.
You are correct, and bring up a excellent point. When I finally finish my generator/welder video that’s something I definitely touch on. I run my machines on a generator, but it is a pure sine wave inverter. That is the only way to get long longevity out of most modern welders. The dirty power of most generators (especially cheap ones) will cause welder failures in a hurry no doubt.
Have you ever worked with the old vertical lincoln torpedos? There was a small discussion on the Garage Journal forum about them, and I guess they were very smooth to run.
So those torpedos are quite a unique welder because they function completely different than any transformer machine. Essentially what many of them are is a 3phase electric motor hooked to a DC generator, and they function much like an engine drive generator welder of years past. Many of the engine drive generators were well known for how good the arc was, and that had to do with the fact they used a “reactor” on a pure DC output, which in simple terms the clearness of the DC was unmatched. With transformer welders they used A/c and rectified it to DC, which was never as smooth DC (even with a reactor to clean it up) as a straight dc generator. You could also do interesting things like control the voltage/amp curves of the machines to match the rod size/type you’re running. The dial arc does this by having essentially two different transformers with different volt/amp curves. Many of those torpedos had 4 to 7 curves to pick from so you could really tailor the arc to what you were welding. The main downsides to torpedos is most had 3phase motors, they typically were loud when running (since it’s a literal electric motor spinning anytime it’s on), and they would take more skill to tune due to having multiple volt/amp curves vs just a dial. I bet the efficiency of them would be slightly better than a dial arc.
Hi Greg, very well done video, as usual. I have two 3/ph motor-generator welders, my Lincoln SAE 300 and my GE 400. Both work great and are fairly easy to set-up. The SAE 300 has the sweetest pure DC arc I have encountered, and I have used many welders in my 60 years of welding. My favorite welder is my Airco 300 MTS Inverter which I bought new 32 years ago. The meter claims I have 3300 + hours of arc time and well over 90,000 hours of on-time. In 32 years I have repaired this machine one time, a switch failed about 20 years ago, the repair was less than 100$. I paid about $3500 for the Airco in 1992 so it was never a bargain basement machine, but it indicates inverter based welders can last for some time.@@makingmistakeswithgreg
If you look at the input current waveform of the Titanium, it won't look very sinusoidal, whereas the Esab will. That means that the RMS value will be very high - even if the phase angle is good - and you pay for that even if the heat losses aren't actually as high as that might suggest. One practical benefit of a PFC is that you can run a higher output from a receptacle with a limited current.
I definitely will look at the input on a scope to see what’s going on, and I bet that will show up. Thanks for the thoughts on that. You are absolutely right on the PFC helping on less power. I tested that esab a bunch (on camera and off) and it will literally weld a 1/8th 7018 at 120 actual output amps on a 120v 20a circuit. The usefulness of that can’t be overstated, anyone with a 20amp 120 outlet could use that welder to weld thick plate. Basically you actually have useful capability on minimal power. Anyone who is stuck with an inefficient welder (or one with poor power factor) will be severely limited in what they can do on a 20a outlet.
While AC has 60 cycles per second, the Full Bridge Rectifier provides 120 cycles per second. The negative pulse portion is just flipped to the upper + side.
I have a (supposedly) early 50s vintage Westinghouse 480 Amp transformer welder. It weighs about 400lbs. I'm no professional welder, but I'm fairly certain I can weld a battleship hull back together with it.
Sounds awesome lol. I have seen Westinghouse equipment but never a welder that big. Must have come out of an industrial building for sure lol.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg instead of lead pockets like most Westinghouse machines have, it's got and infinite dial. I've only been able to find one picture online of one like it.
Is that a Lazer pointer dot right above 3rd transformer right as your pointing at top diagram at around 18:20
On my dialarc hf ive replaced the on off switch twice. Lost ac on it until i blew it out very well. The last switch was 177 dollars. It used to set in a very damp and dusty area. Has been a very tough machine.
No doubt they will survive a long time. I like the design far better than the Lincoln ideal arcs. Far easier to adjust amperage, and somehow slightly lighter. Not saying much since the dial arc weighs around 300lbs 😅
Hi Greg.
Thanks for this video. It clarified a lot of my electrical doubts about welders.
Could you please share the model of the "super nice thing" you used to measure the electrical consumption?
Maybe I will buy one for me to play with.
Until the next video, stay happy!
Sart0
That device is a power factor and wattage meter available here www.amazon.com/Current-Amperage-Voltmeter-Multimeter-Transformer/dp/B07JB9B2QL/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?crid=EL7EUIAV37T3&keywords=current+meter+power+factor&qid=1707730547&sprefix=current+meter+power+factor%2Caps%2C99&sr=8-2
Because it calculates actual wattage consumed and amp loading on the input, it’s very accurate. I have also checked it with a ton of instruments and it’s pretty accurate overall, definitely for non laboratory testing 😀
thanks a lot @@makingmistakeswithgreg
Can I use a hair crimper for wiring or side paneling?
Another advantage of smaller modern welder is that instead of letting it in the shop and having 100' of expensive welding cable, long extension cord are smaller gage. And you can have the welder with you so it can be easier to adjust amperage if you need to.
Definitely. That’s why I push the smaller form factor welders so much, especially the ones with power factor correction. The power output they have (even on 120) and the portability is unmatched.
I just welded a truck frame and the gap is less than perfect, I was very happy to have the amperage dial on hand rather than creeping out of this hard to get position! And after welding at 110-120 amps for 1 hour the machine was barely warm..
By the way awesome video you did!
Hi, I am from The Netherlands and i have the transformer version its 4.5 kVA 220/380V did buy it ,new, in 1975 to weld a central heating system in a 2000 m3 (500 acres) glasshouse. It's a great, both ways, machine to use especially if you want/need to weld for many hours at a time (300 A continuos allowed). If i needed , more ocasionally, welding outside the garage than i whould buy a small one for sure.
BTW i'm a not a profession welder, my day to day work is electronics and ,industrial, computer programming.
Now i use it seldome as i have nearly never have to weld a thing. 🙄
Welcome, and it’s awesome to be able to hear from people all over the world 😀. If you need a lot of output and reliability it is hard to beat the old transformer machines 😀
I like old welders so I would have to take old blue, I have a Lincoln 225 thoomstone I would like to have dc but stuck with ac been running for 31 years it has done me well for a home welder .
You can just convert it to dc. This simplify the explanation you just would add a full bridge rectifier, but there are tons of CZcams videos that show how easy it is to make the conversion, with the affordability and this small time requirement there's really no reason to not do it
Duskorn is right, it’s fairly easy to setup that tombstone to weld on dc with pretty cheap parts. Definitely within the realm of possibilities 😀
Hello Greg, great vid yet again. I live off grid and would like to request a vid content. Can you do a short video on dirty power vs clean power and what we can get away with and what not to do with regards to new generator/ old welder / new welder/ old generator and how they should be used to play well with one another? Just things to look for and look out for when selecting a combo. Or… just forget the request and I strictly use my new gen with the new welder and the old gen with the old welder.. ? Don’t be afraid to use the chalkboard we don’t expect you to buy stuff to make your excellent points understood👍🙏👋 freezer’
So I have shot a welder-generator video, and edited it twice. Then I found out more information and wasn’t happy with the video lol. So this week I am shooting it and it will be out shortly. It’s only been 6months since I said I would do it but it will happen this time. 😀
If I missed it I apologize, but, did you mention duty cycle of the machines? Units like the ideal arc can weld all day non stop depending on out put requirements. I don't see those little units welding on a pipe line or other large projects. Good for home shop, very lite duty use.
I briefly mentioned it but you’re right. The dial arc can output 200+ amps practically all day, the titanium wouldn’t that’s for sure. A modern equivalent of the dial arc, such as a maxstar 350 or 300-350 amp inverter would likely be 30% more efficient and if it had power factor correction it would be possible to hit 350a of output on a 50a 240 breaker. That’s pretty ludicrous amount of output in comparison lol.
That little shoebox won't but a larger equivalent inverter machine(still smaller than the dinosaur) will keep up. He specifically mentioned several times the machines in the video are not equivalent in spec they're just what he had on hand to show the difference in tech. He even mentioned one close to the same spec as the dinosaur would be about 2x the size of the shoebox. I mean you say you may have missed it but it's almost like you missed half the video.
The large breaker these transformers require is due to the inrush current inherent to inductive loads like transformers and motors. Once the initial spike passes, no more than 1/60 of a second, it settles down to a current more in line with what you'd expect from the turns ratio. It's not pulling 90 amps continuously at full output, but only for the first AC cycle after turning on. With that being said, laminated iron transformer cores are much less efficient than an inverter. Part of this difference in efficiency comes from the typical use of a toroidal transformer core in the inverter machines. Iron powder toroid cores are significantly more efficient than laminated E/I iron cores at transferring power from one winding to the other.
Based on omitting power factor, 90a output requires 17amps consumption. If it has the same efficiency at higher outputs that puts its consumption at 34a at 180 and 51a at 270a output. Due to the large amount of reactive power it spits back into the input line, the input wire could easily see 70-80a load on it while welding maxed out. There is inrush however a normal breaker can handle a 2x breaker rating for 3-10 seconds without tripping. The power factor corrected version helps improve the power factor of the machine Inorder to limit the input line loading, this version can run on significantly less breaker rating and wire size.
Basically it’s not that the machine actually consumes 33a as measured on the input side at 90a out, it’s that the reactive power it’s pushing back on the line requires a much bigger breaker and power wires to handle the current. The current is real, it exists, it just does no useful work. In the previous video where I ran the dial arc for a couple welds, it was successful in welding about 1 inch with a 1/8th 7018 at 120 amps before it tripped a 30a breaker. The initial inrush during power up, striking of the arc, and welding didn’t trip the magnetic trip of the breaker. However the thermal trip caused the breaker to trip over time because the breaker saw a 37a load on the wire.
Based on what I saw it would be impossible to weld half a rod with the dial arc on a 50a breaker at anything above 230a. To hit 265 maxed out you would need a 70a breaker at a minimum or it will thermal trip. A 80-90a breaker would allow a person to weld nonstop for minutes at a time without a thermal trip.
Wonder what the efficiency of an AC 225 lincoln tombstone would be?
So the tombstone is a much simpler design because it’s 240v only and has one amperage range. So it omits the input transformer the dial arc has, and from what I remember it also has only one transformer. Since most are A/C only there is no loss in a bridge rectifier or in the output reactor. My guess is it would be in the area of 60% or so. They still suffer from poor power factor as well, they generally require 50a breakers to get above 180amps output.
Most of my transformer machines just had taps into the output side of the transformer so you can select how many coils are active, seems far more simple and adjustable than those methods. I will say that as well as the inductor/choke on the the output it's very common to have a capacitor bank on the output too.
So the tap method works but it gives far less fine tuning adjustability. The tombstone welders traditionally had multiple amperage taps but most were centered around 90-130amps. Many dial arc and ideal arc machines were used for tig or required different volt/amp curves for different rods, so they really benefited by having far more adjustability. No doubt it’s far more complex, and in many cases isn’t necessarily a huge benefit.
A capacitor bank would also work just like you said, i believe they started going to that over the big copper mass inductor in more than a few of the transformer machines. I wonder if the capacitors would be more effective. I bet they would be more efficient.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg I believe some did just because the copper inductors were getting expensive (same machines you see with aluminium transformers) - but my old Cimes unit here has both inductors and capacitors on the output. I believe it's to give some semblance of hot start as well as smoothing the output.
I if you do get a hold of those older machines, some are taken from big companies which have power factor correction systems , will draw near full amps at idle
So I need to do some investigation into that issue. I have read exactly what you said on forms, with typical input loadings of 20-30a at “idle”, and it’s probably correct. However not in the way it’s looked at on face value. Here is the thing, the welder itself can’t draw more power than it consumes at idle. Right now it consumes 600 watts at idle without a PFC capacitor. Putting a large capacitor on the input can’t cause the welder itself to draw more power than it consumes. The capacitor isn’t going to draw and consume 15-25 amps on it own, that’s not how they work. What is likely happening is the PFC capacitor is causing the input line to be loaded with reactive current at idle. As the welder is put under load the reactive current lowers and the input loading lessens. Basically the loading on the input wire at say 120a output may measure the same as 160a. It’s not that the input power measured is wrong, it might be higher than a non PFC unit due to reactive power. However it would likely load the input line to less amperage at all levels above the lowest output levels. A simple capacitor setup will only make the power factor significantly better at specific outputs, likely under higher amperage. For a shop that gets fined for poor power factor by the power company, the capacitor would be worth it. For a home gamer that doesn’t pay for reactive power at lower outputs there would be little to gain, it won’t use less electricity that you pay for. It would give the ability to run the machine on significantly less wire size and breaker rating though.
had customer bring in for different problem (fixed problem) but told him i couldnt put plug back because had gotten hot and was melted (dryer plug)
measured and was drawing 60 amps at idle . was a miller syncrowave and had power factor correcting installed. ask him how long he had had he said about ten years . and said he has replaced aboutmay have
@@makingmistakeswithgreg
I think you might have it backwards on Miller vs. Lincoln and shunts... Miller (Hobart) use a shunted transformer, where Lincoln uses a tapped transformer... at least on the 'buzzbox' welders.
Also, with the new "Smart" power meters, the power company now charges you for everything... Apparent power and Real Power. Yup, you're paying for it.
The buzz box welders indeed use multiple taps on the transformer to achieve multiple outputs. Lincoln’s ideal arc (up until atleast the 80s) used a shunt that would be inserted in to main transformer to change the magnetic field. This is why they have a big heavy to turn knob in the front and a gear reduction on it that goes to a shunt. The ideal arc (main competition to the dial arc) never used millers setup that I am aware of. The dial arc is much more pleasent to use lol.
As far as the meter goes the local power company can indeed monitor power factor, however I was told by the power company that they don’t charge residential customers for reactive power. I know this is not the same everywhere, I am unsure as to how common this is. I haven’t paid an electric bill in over a year so I can’t even inspect a bill to see if any details are given on it regarding this.
Inductors resist changes in current, capacitors resist changes in voltage, not the other way around
I got a scratch tig kit and bottle for my 150A Kemppi stick welder. Have you ever messed around with that kind of stuff?
I have done a bunch of scratch start. It welds just like lift arc with a harder start. What I used to do with that setup is use my filler rod and quickly strike it between the tungsten and the work piece. It would often start the arc and not contaminate the tungsten like is common by scratching it like a rod.
Sweet. It'll try that. Thanks mate. I made a kill-switch from a 200A relay, so I can kill the arc but keep nuzzle in place not to lose the gas flow. Works decent. Still trying to learn. Tricky but fun ^^
Thanks Greg really enjoy the first part explaining how transformers work and how you get to direct current it was well explained where even someone like myself gets the concept. Definitely prefer a modern welder for one thing wouldn't even know where to put such a huge welder not to mention the weight and the fact that a home barely has and extra 20 amp breaker available. I'm using a Miller 220 multi wish it had hot start but I will always use it over my Lincoln tomb stone that's a hell of a lot heavier and doesn't have the controls of the Miller.
I agree, the weight and size are the biggest drawbacks. If I had to choose a singular welder no way would I consider a big transformer machine. Even the tombstone you have is stupidly heavy and so power hungry it’s unbelievable, and that’s a “normal sized” stick machine lol. The modern welders like your miller 220 offer so much capability while still being portable.
I always look at duty rating.
What's interesting is that on a generator welder (no inverter or transformer) you can get 250 amps output from a 18HP engine. Air-cooled internal combustion engines are not known to be efficient devices, however if that was a generator only (10-12k watts output) and you plugged in a transformer welder you'd be lucky to get 120 amps welding output yet functioning as a generator welder you can get 250. I don't really understand how that works, but it does and it works quite well.
Edit: I guess they do have a transformer, I never really noticed, now I'm even more confused lol
So generator welders are an interesting breed of welders. There are multiple ways to make them, so it can be hard to figure out what’s going on. A old school method was to use a gas/diesel engine hooked to a literal DC generator. The generator output was DC, not A/c like an alternator. That DC was then sent through a reactor (choke) to smooth it out a bit. There is no bridge rectifier, no transformer, and the efficiency of the system was likely far better than say the dial arc 250. These machines are highly desireable because their DC is very clean and smooth. Many of these output 120v DC to the power outlet to run a grinder, they have no ac capability.
Some welder generator combos have two generators, one for welding output and one for the “generator”. These will sometimes output DC on one generator and AC on the other “generator”. They give the ability to run A/c stuff and weld on DC. The reason for these having more output on the welding output is because the welding output generator is bigger.
These are typically the smaller units like the harbor freight Vulcan 195 and Lincoln Outback.
Modern welder generators are a real mixed bag. The most modern ones I believe are all producing A/c from the generator, and that A/c is being turned/rectified into DC. Or it’s possible they are still doing DC and then an inverter is being used to create the A/c output.
Now to give a great example of why a modern welder/generator like a trailblazer 325 can output 325 amps on the machine but it couldn’t power a dial arc 250 to max output (300 amps) it’s simple: the welder generator section and breaker of the trailblazer doesn’t have to deal with the reactive power of the dial arc that loads up circuits. The dial arc is simply too inefficient (both in electrical efficiency and in power factor) that the output would be far limited. I assure you that the trailblazers welding generator is likely over 80% efficient, and because it’s producing DC there is no power factor issue (that is a AC issue). It also likely has two separate generators, one for welding and one for ac output. The welding one is likely bigger. Now it is possible to output a lot of welder power on the 12,000 watt a/c output on that machine. A modern inverter stick machine with power factor correction could likely achieve 350 amps of output at 24v on 12k watts generator power. So the possibility is there, just not with a poor power factor inefficient transformer welder.
That’s why running a welder on a generator is a big issue. If the welder is a transformer machine and doesn’t have power factor correction you wind up tripping breakers at no output because you have to deal with the reactive power (and 50% vs 90% electrical efficiency). That dial arc could hit 90a on a 4k running watt generator if its power factor was perfect, but it’s so poor despite only consuming 4k watts it needs a generator with a 30amp breaker and 7k rated watts so the wiring and breaker holds the load. Direct contrast the esab can hit 90a on a 2500 running watt generator.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg That makes sense!! Thanks so much for taking the time to write all of that! The way you explain things makes it very easy to understand! 👍👍👍
Does CAD stands for can adam draw?
Sorry could not hhelp my self
It is "Cardboard Assisted Design"... 😂 (whi h I use very often...)
I think do not know for sure a Lincoln 225 tombstone on #4 wire with 50 amp breaker 20%dutycycle
duty cycle comes to mind what are they
The duty cycle on the miller is much better at 250a at 40%. At that point the electric meter would be spinning lol.
Miller , Lincoln etc make you pay dearly for their names. I am shocked to discover just the 2 alphabet AC which I need to weld aluminum basically doubled the price. I likely be forced to buy a Chinese welder later , like Everlast.
Everlast is pretty solid. The main limitation they have is fit/finish, and their software. Their simpler welders are really good. Their lightining series software is a bit rough. The thing I appreciate about everlast is they don’t lie about capabilities or specs. They have proven to be reliable. They also weld very good generally speaking.
wall power @ 200.40 ? volts
All tests were done on a pure sine wave generator that’s capable of about 35a at 240v output.
You have current transformer its like
choke for high amperage current on another winding you bring oposite phase voltage from reostat, if no regulation voltage you have maximum current when you bring maksimum current choke have high resistance so welding current is small
Basicly you have main transformer,( give you welding current, and 30V controll voltage separate windings) current transformer look like multiple windings nd switch hi lo ampers(variable choke) reostat.
It can be easy upgrade adding Thyristor regulation and additional electronic for fine current controll. More advance than magnetic shunt. You use low electric current to controll welding current.
Really advance idea.
Thanks to Miller companny for idea.
I will be buy old school magnetic shunt machine it is only 30€ in EU nobody like them, and upgrade like Miller dialer.
I didn't know Greg smoked.
The worst thing about an inverter welder is that one day you will go to use it and it won’t work, worked great last time you used it but it’s broken now and you have no idea why. There’s about a thousand components in it, they all look fine but now you have a $1500 box of junk.
I see the cost as a moot point, if you weld a fair amount the electricity savings in over 3-4 years would probably pay for the inverter welder. Take for example the dial arc vs esab. The dial arc costs 300-400$ used. You can buy a new inverter welder capable of 200amps stick for 300 to 1k (esab is 1k) The dial arc for my use would cost me between 200-300$ more electricity in a year. Just idling the dial arc eats 600 watts, which is not out of line with min at transformer welders. Within 3-4 years the electrical savings alone paid for the price difference. Most new welders that are decent have a 3-5 year warranty, so I will still have a functioning welder at that point. It’s always best to have multiple welders vs one, so even if a new one went down I have a backup while it’s getting fixed. The transformer welders are reliable but most don’t have things like arc force, hot start, and the controls inverters have. They are also extremely big/heavy and require a ton of power. For a shop welder it pays to have one transformer machine, but they are losing out to inverters every day that passes.
@@makingmistakeswithgregDon’t get me wrong, I’m not saying you are wrong but you better have an old transformer machine to use while you’re waiting for a new inverter machine you just ordered to come in because your current one just died. Because it will die. Hopefully later rather than sooner. I have a Everlast 210ext for tig welding and use it maybe 5 times a year. Had it 5 years and it will cut out immediately after striking an arc now. Some kind of sensor issue I imagine but with all the circuitry in there it’s not for the faint of heart to try a repair, so do you spend $500 on an old transformer machine, $500 on a new Harbor Freight one, $1500 on a new Everlast, AHP, etc. or $2000 on a new Miller inverter (entry with zero settings) or anywhere in between that and $3000 for a nicer new Miller with settings? Once you do, will you get 5 years out of it. I don’t know. I agree with you but the $500 transformer Miller Syncrowave 300 with HF start and pulse settings in my area is looking very nice right now. 😊
You do pay for reactive power. Whether it is true power or reactive power you will have it showing through your meter on house as consumed power. At least I think that’s the way I see it. Will cost you much more to run buzz box.
It’s completely based on the meter you have and the local power company. A residence doesn’t typically have the reactive power an industrial shop has, so in many cases they simply aren’t charged for it. Outside of a big welder there is very little in a normal house that would be anywhere near something like a dial arc 250. Most electrical meters function much like the device I used to measure the welder, they calculate consumed wattage and a bunch of other things. A houses power factor is generally far better than say a factory, and those can be penalized due to poor power factor because they could literally have thousands of amps of reactive power going back to the grid. In my case I am not charged for a poor power factor when tied to the grid via a house meter.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Thankyou for the info. I was told you pay for all power. It is good to know about it all. Really enjoyed your explaining of welders. I learned a lot Thanks
Very good run down on power factor and power consumption. I was awhere of efficent welders but did not know about power factors. When I bought my welders as looked for the ones that had low full amp draws at max welding amps due to my 40 amp breaker.
All mine draw less then 30 amps. My 2 Fronius welders on 240v draw 28 amps at max amps welding. They never blow a breaker.
In fact at most welding amps 90 to 130 amps, the fan never comes on. Now that is efficient. So now I know they must have a better power factor not that you made this video.
Fronius has power factor correction on most of their welders (especially their small ones) so they have amazing power output without issues of tripping breakers. It’s pretty amazing how much output you can get when you have a super efficient welder and power factor correction. You can get useable power on 120v and huge power on 240v.
duty cicle? i bet old transformer ones have much higher ones.
The older transformer machines vs modern equivalents is a tough thing to compare duty cycle wise. The closest modern welder to the dial arc that miller makes is the xmt350. It weighs 1/5th as much, outputs 350a at 60% duty cycle (vs 250@ 40% for the dial arc). Even older inverter machines from the 90s could achieve a similar duty cycle as the dial arc. Where the dial arc shines is for 3-400$ it’s capable of reliably outputting 250a if you have the power to feed it. You might be able to find a used inverter machine that could match that, but it would be double the price at a minimum. So the bang for your buck and long term reliability of a used old transformer machine like the dial arc is extremely hard to beat.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Interesting i didn't know that. I always though a 40% cycle on inverters was due to being inverters, and thought transformers for obvious reasons (mass, dissipation etc) would have much higher duty cycles.
Man Greg , I watch your videos and think I learn something and get motivated to do some welding and I get the same results.. nice looking slag covering horrible welds 🤦 that’s if I can get the rod to not stick .
That’s learning to weld, it’s what everyone deals with. Think of it like riding a bike, or learning to write. It’s a whole lot of failure before you get it somewhat right. Keep with it, practice, and you will get it faster than you think.
Duty cycle needs to be watched carefully. Yes invertor will reduce your electric bill, but plan on it failing within 10 years
You failed to mention the built in anti theft feature🙂 Inverters are too easy to steal. 150Kg lump of iron is not going anywhere🙃
Haha very true. It’s hard to fathom how heavy most of the big transformer welders truly are. It’s easy work carrying around modern inverters, even 300 amp machines. With the transformer machines you need forklifts, tractors, chain falls, or some sketchy ramp systems 😅.
Id rather have the ole trusty buzz box over that transistorized Garbage And im an electronics Tech
The old stuff still works great. I just wish they were less power hungry lol.
"They" do build them like they "used to". Comparing two different technologies is negligent.
I am not sure I follow your logic. At one point all you could buy is a transformer welder. In 1984 when the dial arc was made, that’s the only home capable stick welder you could buy from miller on the more powerful end. Beyond that they had the thunderbolt, thunderbolt xl, and a bunch of random transformer machines. Look in a modern miller catalog and there isn’t a single machine made like the dial arc in the video. They don’t even make the dial arc anymore and the most recent version is significantly upgraded over the dial arc I have. Virtually all manufactures have switched to inverter machines, even for 400+ amp units. I am not sure miller even makes any purely transformer machine anymore. So no, they don’t build welders like they used to anymore, and I fail to see how comparing them is negligent, that really makes no sense.