Milling a Badly Pitted Plate for a Plate Chiller on the Metal Planer Mill
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- čas přidán 5. 01. 2024
- **Update** I have gotten a lot of really dumb comments and some extremely arrogant "you should do it this way" comments. I ran this job the way I did because the plate had a slight warp to it. clamping it directly to the table may have pulled some of it out, but not all and created more sealing problems in the long run. s
I have done a lot of plate milling in my time, but usually I do it on the Lucas Horizontal Boring Mill. This plate is small enough to fit on the Metal Planer Mill.
This machine started out life as an American Tool Works 8 Foot Planer, but was stripped of its planer drive by the previous owner and modified into a large drilling machine. When I bought it from the auction, it was just the planer body and the DC drive they had put on it. I installed the Bridgeport head and DRO to make this one of the most profitable machines in the shop.
This job comes from a local power plant that takes waste products such as food waste and byproducts of food manufacturing. They put it in large vats and start the fermentation process. The Methane gas produced is then used to power 4 large Caterpillar gensets. The waste products from the fermentation tanks is then used as fertilizer. This is a totally green energy system, and it is right here in Northern Wisconsin.
The plate chiller is used to collect heat off the generators for heating the facility. During a cleaning process, a final flush was missed and the acid etched into the plate rendering it useless. I will attempt to clean it up the best I can and see if we can save it.
Topper Machine LLC is an entirely manual machine shop located in Spooner, WI. Our videos will highlight some of our shop work.
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Update! I've had a lot of really dumb comments and arrogant "you should do this" comments. I chose the way I did it because the plate had a warp to it. It would not sit flat on the table. Instead of trying to pull the warp out and makng more problems, I chose the best solution for the given problems.
Josh, do not let the Keyboard Mechanics grind you down......
your techniques are always interesting and informative....
many ways to "get the job done right the first time"......
I appreciate your candor and the way you share information
with the rest of us......Thank You so Much......PB
Just tell them you are not telling anyone this is the way to do it
It is just the way you do it and it gets done right the first time.
Right on.
Simple rules…your shop, your machines, your client, your channel. They probably haven’t got any of those things. Hence the comments.
I have a lot of those in my plant. This is the way I would have done it.
Love to see the old equipment working at what they do best. Thanks for the great videos!
Josh, I do not think I have seen you use this machine before.....
it is a very kool machine........cheers....PB
There are several videos of it.
The plate looks like it could just be flipped and used. However, I see your comment that it was warped so you fixed it the best way possible. Thanks for posting.
how awesome is to see this old machines still being useful and productive in a real world machine shop environment.
My CNC router is soooo jealous. The strength. The rigidity. The Y travel.....
That is awesome seeing that machine being brought back to life. I used to run a 26' by 10' GRAY planer mill at my last job. Looked just like this only larger. Very good machines and they do an excellent job. I like your setup, works well
Awesome how your channel has grown in the past year. You're knocking on the door of 100k!
It's been a crazy ride.
Thank you for the comment reply. And you answered the question. I actually meant to ask was I bet the people around you are very thankful that you’re there. Sometimes the lack of skilled people is appalling and really makes things difficult, or at least more difficult than they were when I was a young man. Keep up the great videos and I loved the video on how you make your videos.
The lighting makes it look like you work in a back alley in the dead of the night.
It is not, just how the camera perceives it.
My dad's shop was similar to yours. All manual equipment, yours in much better shape. Worked many hours in his shop when he needed help. He had a big vertical bed mill with four-foot stroke we would use to slab and cut slots on as well as drill and tap holes with similar chunks of steel. Thanks for sharing, Ken
I am amazed at the variety of jobs you get.in such a rural area. Keep up the good work and videos.
Not just rural, significantly economically depressed.
@@TopperMachineLLC Hopefully the jobs keep coming at a rate that's viable.
I scrape by. Very little debt load is the saving grace here.
Looks great. Nice job. I have used a Blanchard grinder for similar jobs.
Wow, nice to see professional work being done, a beautiful piece of work, thank you for sharing.
Thank you very much!
The Bridgeport mod is really great!
The gantry design of the planner mill will only have the rigidity with the cutting forces feeding into/against the bridge/gantry style construction, hence planner/shapers only cut in this direction.
Another great video and loving your channel 👏 keep the great work going and hope you have a successful new year,love from the UK 🇬🇧 Birmingham, England 🏴
It was worth trying to see what it could do. Now we all know its limitations.
👍👍
Was gonna say this same thing 👍
Excellent job Josh, great video, keep'um coming..
I've picked up a couple of things from CME - and honestly I have had really good results. Angle plate was properly flat and perp, a rotary table was very smooth and accurate (couple of examples) - frankly very impressive for the price.
I've had a few tools from them over the years. Price was a big factor the first few years in business, now it's more about quality. CME hits on both.
I have a few items from CME, and most are pretty good. Unfortunately, last time I ordered 6 of #1 and 6 of #2 center drills, and not a single one was usable - the tips were either unevenly ground, had no relief or both.
@@gennadiykatsman674 I've found that with a lot of the China junk drills. The indexable tooling on the other hand seems quite good for the price.
I have bought several of the CME 3 point internal micrometers. I am really pleased with them for the price I paid.
Installing the DRO on the Bridgeport would have made the job a lot easier. Good move.
Well.... great vid, "but", just a little more exciting than watching Adam running the shaper, LOL (Gotta mess with ya a little) Thnks Bro.
I just found your channel, glad I did! Looking forward to seeing your others, take care!
Ah Josh, so many armchair heroes who always know better than the guy in the moment. Forget the naysayers, their comments are worth nothing. I get much enjoyment watching what you do and appreciate your explanation as to why you approach a job in a certain way. I spent 30+ years in the toolmaking trade and one of the earliest things I learned was that there is always more than one way to do a job and achieve the desired result. Keep 'em comin' man. Respect from Downunder.
I honestly believe the know-it-alls have never actually had to do a job like any that I take on. My shop is becoming known for doing the impossible jobs. Most jobs I get have been to a couple other places that say it can't be done. There are also shops that just refer everything to me. I must be doing something right.
Josh somehow, I missed this one when you posted it. I love the Planer mill and the Horizontal boring mill.
nince job there and thanks for showing us pushing the limits of the machine did not seem to bother it to much Cheers
Very cool 😎 a close friend had a similar setup a old planer with a Bridgeport head used for rebuilding mainly Bridgeport mills he would get most stuff within a half thousand and scrape from there
Looks great to me. Excellent. 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
hello Josh & it's is Randy and i like yours video is cool Thanks Josh Friends Randy
28:55 I ❤ my pneumatic chamfering tool! Same thing, saw Adam using it & went & got me one as well.
Ref reducing chatter by machining in one direction only, possibly Y axis carriage is lifting/pivoting? As you say 3 inch cutter is a good size, certainly bigger, and with tungsten carbide to boot, outside the thinking of Messrs Bridgeport.
Useful machine.
Thanks for sharing.
Thank you Josh!
Very well done.
New subscriber, thumbs up, your headline is like lyrics to a song.
Nice save for your customer, getting those plate heat exchangers to seal can be a problem at the best of times I hope it works for them there is a specific procedure for installation and torquing sequence and specifications for the through rod studs. One failure mode I have seen is failure to clean the threads of both the nuts and studs before installing, oversized hardens washers helps lot.
Nicely done 👍❤❤❤ thanks for the video Josh. Take care of yourself and family and be Blessed.
Enjoyed the video along with your commentary. Great to listen to your approach on the technical issues.
This was an interesting project and it turned out great.
Josh,
Have been dealing with CME for a cpl years now, good selection of quality stuff of abt anything u need and prompt service too. My sister in Michigan lives abt 15 minutes away fm them so never any problem in getting stuff picked up or shipped if its bigger size. She just brings it with them when they visit back home here.
Have you ever tried a large size fly cutter for the finishing passes, I made a 6 inch diam one that adapts a 1/4 in indexable carbide mini lathe turning cutter.....gives amazing results...
Just a minor dusting of snow here now, ground is saturated and softer than hell, couldnt plow if i had to without tearing up everything....def saving on fuel and heating costs so far in the shop, and not freezing my bippy off as usual.....
Don
I have 2 big fly cutters for the HBM, that do amazing mirror finishes. The BP Head just isn't ridged enough to handle something that big. I was really pushing it with this head also.
We have been really wet, thank god it was rain and not snow. We would be buried like we were last year. Still happy with my snowblower purchase, been blowing that snow out of the region. LOL.
I run my big fly cutter on my 3hp Alliant 10x54 mill.....for small jobs use a reg fly cutter and then if the piece fits, run over it w my surface grinder and a 3M Scotch brite EXL xtra fine wheel I had them custom make to fit my grinder spindle.....@@TopperMachineLLC
I am looking at upgrading vertical mills in 2024. 1HP BP just can't cut it sometimes. The planer is mostly for positioned drilling/milling work, and small long parts. This was a bit excessive for the machine, but I already had a big job in the Boring Mill.
Josh if you’re looking to offload that 1 HP Bridgeport let me know. I’ll gladly come get it. Hassle free sale if you need it. I’m looking to acquire a knee mill this year.
Great video thanks for sharing
Well done Josh hope you have a great New Year.
That was a nice quick and simple video. It didn't look bad to video or edit, either.
When I pulled a dump wagon, one of our specialties was hauling sludge from water treatment plants. I've hauled from a couple of digesters and burners that were being overhauled, but mostly from ones that just pull and treat the solids for disposal in a landfill. It's interesting that sludge from Salem, Ma went to landfills near the finger lakes in NY, and sludge from long island went to one near Rochester, NY. Permitting and contracts are interesting.
An odd one in Brunswick, Maine... they have a digester, but it's not near a treatment plant so we would haul it 2 hours from Lowell, Ma and simply dump into their bin/conveyor and then they would do their magic.
Very cool machine
When you reached the end of the first pass then started feeding back the other direction I was a bit surprised. A planer would b engineered and built to withstand force in only one direction, so the increased chatter isn't surprising.
I assume they couldn't flip the plate around and use the other side?
If it were a situation where the pits need filled/removed, and there were limits on the amount of metal that could be removed, Belzona products are worth considering. Seriously expensive but they seem to work well in chemical process repair.
Jobs like this could give you an excuse to look for a big old Blanchard grinder😂
It's actually not as rigid as you would think. It is absolutely best for small cuts and large pattern drilling. But if you take your time and know its limits, you can still do great things. I wanted them to just let me make a new one, but they insisted on milling this one. I honestly have no idea why they just didn't flip it. It was symmetrical, should have flipped just fine.
Nice job.
Very nice results.
Only thing I would add is do work on the other side of the bed too, ensuring equal wear so you don't gouge a valley into those ways (the bane of many older machines).
Yep should have placed it directly on the table or placed a support block directly in the center. That ringing noise should have told you.. keep on trucking 😊
There's a digester setup at the paper mill I worked at. Generated enough biogas to save about three weeks of natural gas. They added a turbine to generate electricity after I left.
Great machine work , surface looks a little rough but I've had enough stuff planed and I know even with that look that it will be just fine . Looks can be deceiving and the plate is proof of that statement . Great video .
The camera sees things that are not there sometimes. It's been in service for over a month now with no problems.
I can see that planer mill being a real money maker in a job shop.
It sure is.
When you used that chamfer tool, it sounded like someone played, "The devil went down to Georgia", really fast. --Doozer
Another good video!
I really like that antique planer table having been slightly modified for using that Bridgeport head.
I've watched Keith Rucker restore his, but his is belt driven off a line shaft driven by an electric motor. It still maintains the single point shaper head design as you may likely know. What a nice machine you created.
Thanks, but I didn't create it. I bought it this way, just reworked what they had to function far better. I wish it were still a planer, but this has been far more useful than a plain planer would be.
Talk about the ideal job for a planer.
Yes, if only someone before me hadn't stripped the planer drive and clapper off of it. I wish I had a big planer, but this works.
I'm surprised youre not using side clamps... so useful especially for surface operations like this. It wouldve been flat on the table, no hold downs in the way, no shifting clamps... a one setup kind of deal.
Don't have any, they are in the tooling wish list.
@TopperMachineLLC all of the ones I looked at were too rich for my blood. I ended up making my own.
@TopperMachineLLC I just made some the other day. 60° angle, t slot, and piece of steel. Wasn't to hard. Turn out really well. Go make a few pair.
@@stretchhfab7315 yes, they are on the tooling build list. I just need time away from paying work.
I have OML eccentric cam system side clamps and they are fantastic on my Mitsui Seiki. But, that job would always end up bouncing up and down in the middle - you won't get that job flat, consistent in thickness and parallel by milling - the material is too thin and large in size. That job is a wash grinder job, if you want it done right.
The cutter is supported in one direction by the full mass of the planer head pushing against it while less supported in the opposite direction. This is likely the cause of your chatter. The Bridgeport head is a much better utilization of a small planer than the older single tool method.
Yes big return on bio gas generators using digester. Another option is small gas turbines or up to the cousin of the mighty GE J 79 turbojet engine with afterburner, the land marine version LM 1500 light weight no afterburner yet produces over 15,000 hp, then the final exhaust steam is used to make dry high pressure steam. I sure would follow this start up company,
You might get a lot of new future business.
Great work Mr Topper
They have apparently been here 15 years. First owners bankrupted it and it sold to a new company who is growing it. Very interesting and I look forward to seeing it grow
BTW a sneaky trick is to plop a RO sander with the velcro pad on top of a scotchbrite pad. It has just enough grip to work.
Sometimes the only thing that gives you a good finish without chatter is to use a fly cutter. Its time consuming but works well. You could also just leave one insert in your face mill and fly cut it like that. But that seemed to work pretty well with that cutter.
I certainly could have done that. Set it up and walk away.
I know we're relying on the audio quality of the video but that facemill sounded super quiet. That machine is nice and rigid but that cutter sounded great.
It definitely was quiet. A lot better than some.
I think a tour of that power company would be a neat video. I bought a plate like that recently. I learned that it was, as you said, a exchanger end plate. Mines a bit bigger 2.75” thick and weighs 2,000lbs. It’s gonna make the best table top 😁
It was cool, but unfortunately I couldn't film it.
Hey Josh all these utube squeakers telling you to do this and that this way are wannabes! Quality machinists will never criticise your ways as they understand the compilations and tests of your work in the workplace. Any plate for a cooler are bound be distorted over that length! Keep your ways of thinking 💯🫵🏻👍🏻🫡🇬🇧
Nice job Josh.
The plate came out great.
The planer mill is a nice machine.
Have a great day.
I think you should get a Bridgeport type head with a number 40 taper. I do like your milling cutter. I have been really pleased with them in a shop environment. I bought one for home use. Also any planer that I have used the milling head is mounted to the compound slide of the planer. The tool is moved up and down with the compound slide. The rail is moved up or down depending on the height of the work piece and the bolts locking the rail in place.
I put on what was readily available. I have been watching for something better, but most of what I do on here doesn't require anything more than an R8.
I work in a dairy facility as a mechanic and we use the same kind of cooler. I just started there a few months ago so I'm not sure exactly what they do but we have pretty big ones. There's one that's something like 6 or 7 feet tall and about the same width as that one.
I've been around a lot of these. I've actually seen ones bigger than you described.
That sort of size of plate heat exchanger in a dairy is probably a pasteurizer. They are quite clever in that the regenerative section can recover quite a bif of the energy put into the syste. We had similar systems in the brewing industry, but considerably larger. When I was sailing as an engineer in the merchant navy some of the main engine coolers were huge.
@@TopperMachineLLC I was previously in the glass industry, we made plates and bowls. We didn't have much need for cooling other than just forced air from big air handlers. So this is my first time around these setups.
@@billdoodson4232I think you're right about the pasteurization thing. I remember them saying that's the room they're in.
The part looks great. ❤Happy New Year’s.🎉
Is it possible to put some type of grinder head on that Bridgeport maybe even regular hand grinder?😅.
No, absolutely no grinding in my machine shop. The dust is detrimental to the equipment. If it were completely wore out, then I could move it out and set it up as a grinder, but not in my shop. There are grind shops that I send smaller stuff to.
Josh, I’m kinda surprised the customer didn’t give you the gasket so you could determine what areas of that surface needed to be flat. I’m guessing most of that interior surface is just exposed to water which caused the majority of the pitting and plays no role in sealing - but I could be wrong. You have a great channel, wish you could show more of your locomotive work but I understand your reasons for not filming that.
The Part seems very symmetrical.
Could it even be flipped without any machining?
Also im surprised they didn’t have a last exchanger plate over the ends that provide the frame to protect them from the media.
I second this, more pits more surface area, better heat transfer
well that was definitely an etching oopsie .......I wonder how deep it would be before it needs replacing.
Good stuff thanks for sharing
I tried to convince them to just make a new one, but they wanted to save it
I guess a good solution might be to cover it with 316 stainless
handy mill that, that would earn its keep quite easily.
Paid for itself the very first job.
Man, I LOVE this kind of stuff. I can watch a machine work for hours. Question : the cut pattern looks to me like the head is ever so slightly trammed, tilting the head with the top away from the gantry, and the cutter towards the gantry. Is that true? I'm learning machining now (in my old age retirement), and am trying to understand cause and effects of what cut patterns I see. On my Lagun mill, when I can see the leading and trailing cut patterns against each other, I "think" I have the head trammed in correctly. But I am still learning from guys like you.
That's a cool optical illusion at 6:45 ish looks like a deep scoop out
Watching the video and seeing it in person, it's amazing the differences. What finished out as a very smooth, about a 125✓ surface, actually looks horrible on camera.
A tee nut underneath in the middle with a bolt in it would of killed the vibration, or a small screw jack. Did better then I expected, I thought that full width first cut was going to scream. Good job!
Great suggestion. I will remember that. This machine has surprised me so much over the last few years. So versatile and profitable.
Ideally this is a perfect job for a Blanchard grinder, but have to use the machines we have.
Yes, or an actual planer. None of which exist around here.
Need some Mighty Bite Clamps,
Maybe for future works, get a magnetic adapter to hold the piece and skip cutting so close to your clamps
thanks for the chamfering tool idea
you'll love it. Just order extra bearings for the cutter guide. They don't last long.
Advanced Polymer Repairs has a system that allows the rebuilding of such surfaces without any complex and costly machining. No removal of metal and can be done on site.
Thanks, I'll look into them for any future needs.
you may need to get a magnet to lift plates like that😂
It arrived after I filmed this. The next several videos are way out of order. Lol
The end plate looks symetrical Josh. I would havs suggested that they just turn it round and put the outside on inside. I know it'd be a lot less work for you but would cheaper for them. I found my customers always liked it when I suggested a cheaper option for them.
It was suggested and rejected.
@@TopperMachineLLC I thought you might have done.
I really like videos that show how your converted planner work. I have one question. Did you use lubricant on the cutting surface? If you did I missed it. That face mill looks like a very good investment to me. Looking forward to more videos from your shop. KOKO!
No coolant or oil. Dry machining works just fine on most applications.
Nice job. What if, as a last light finish cut you put the plate on the table and clamped it on the sides so that the top was clear than use a big fly cutter? Would that help with the chatter and overall surface finish? The plate being so heavy. Thank you and I always enjoy watching your work. Happy New Year.
Plate was wider than the table. I could have just done it in the boring mill but chose this way instead.
You have a loose bearing in the traveling head and why you re getting chatter mid plate. The head is hopping up and down and why milling in one direction is smoother finish than the other. Watch this video and keep looking at the head, you can see the whole head pop up and down while moving. You may need to insert a thicker clearance washer to tighten it up for a smoother finish and less chatter.
Would have been a good job for edge clamps. Or even the old school planer clamps.
A few 1-2-3 blocks in the middle probably would have helped with chatting , it it amazing how some things that are thick will bend and flex some even under light load .
That machine sure can remove metal a lot faster now than it could have ever done as it was originally built to work .
How long would have it taken to cut a 6" wide pass with a single tool bit ? A long time .
Yes, but as a planer I could have just set it up and let it go. I really wish it was still a planer, but it was already converted when I got it.
Maybe some day you can find a planer in good original condition for the shop .
Each has it advantages .
This is really a good video. I always enjoy watching your stuff, although I watching on my TV rather than on my phone, but I have to comment on my phone. Without mentioning numbers, how do you even price out a job like this? Is there some big book of machinist, standardized, pricing or something? I am always curious about that. And you never failed to surprise me with either a new piece of equipment that I’ve never seen before or a new use for a piece of equipment I have seen before. Keep up the great work.
Thanks for the comment. To answer your question, it really depends on the job. Mostly pricing is based on experience of similar jobs and time estimations. I have a set hourly rate for estimating and base the price on the time I think it will actually take. Some other factors that drive the price up is, how soon its needed and can anyone else in my region do it. For the most part I am the last shop around that can handle the stuff I take on, so I just set my shop rate to reflect that. Sometimes it drives away the customer, but eventually they come back because I am the only one who can do it.
Love this channel, one question, the plate appears to be symmetrical along its length, why not just flip it over and use the underside ?
Great question. They wanted to mill it, I have no idea. It was suggested to save them money, but this is what they wanted.
Glad to see someone asked the same question I had about 2 minutes into the video. That just what they wanted. Roger that. On with the video.
This is the end plate of a plate cooler.
Typically, all data plates, engravings and/or other information will be on that plate.
I am quite sure that is the one and only reason the power company opted for milling the correct side.
@@johanea I'd bet you're correct. I never looked at the other side, but I bet it was stamped with data.
@@johanea Sometimes the data plate can be the about most valuable thing on equipment in regulated industries
If you would put a cup grinding wheel on the head it would be a very large surface grinder , or mount a grinder head on where the Bridgeport is mounted would be even better .
I mount a portable straight grinder to a old radial arm saw to do some surface grinding once and it worked for the job at hand .
Absolutely not. I want to keep my machines in good shape. Grinding destroys them.
You are always interesting. There sure was a lot of damage. So did you take off a total of .125??? Thanks for the video. It is always good to see you. I enjoy your old videos to.
Yes, it was about 0.125. I was surprised it cleaned up as well as it did.
Hey Josh, Happy New Year. Question, why not have done the first 2 roughing passes on that last bit and then change the corners? Seems like it would have done the roughing then given you some really nice edges for finishing. Why risk it on the roughing cut?
After using these cutters regularly for the last several months, I've found that they hold up extremely well when used correctly.
That’s standard for those heat exchanger plates. Ours get such d pit marks we just scrap the part and buy a fresh. We run slot of acids and caustics
Should be doing this job on a big surface grinder. Like in a rock quarry with water flush system. Go much faster and cleaner this is torture. Put that slab of steel in a big rock quarry surface grinder used to make headstones be done in a few passes with NO clamping. The water thru capillary action keeps the piece in place. Yes I am arrogant Mr topper.
So out of interest - you mentioned flatness - did you measure the flatness, and do you know what flatness you can get off that machine over its whole work area? I am constantly making weldments that have surfaces that sort of size that need to be decked off flat after welding, to take off shrinkage and distortion allowance before machining in fine features.
I haven't had to use it for a real true flatness, but did check it once years ago. I seem to recall a 0.005 dip in the middle. Usually if there is a call-out for flatness, it goes to the HBM.
28:30 "Get off the computer I need to make a phone call!"
Fellow You tuber @ Old Iron Machine Works works on a bunch of big Waukesha engines that make electric off trash gas.
Not much to say just a mandatory Algorithm Boost lol 👍👍
It would be interesting to see this plant if you get a chance to shoot any video. It sounds like it's quite unusual.
I got the tour, no filming allowed unfortunately.
@@TopperMachineLLC It would have been interesting to see how it all worked.
It sure was.
machining is such a lost art........ awesome content. great to see different ways that machinists use to bring stuff back to life. between this channel, ABOM79's channel and CEE Australia I'm sure to be an expert youtube machinist in no time :)
Candidate for a lumsdone or blanchard grinder me thinks. Could they not use the other side for the sealing face.
The chatter Almost sounds like a loose pulley in the j-head had a similar issue was a simple bushing in the j-head
Topper *Would be neat if you posted on the video the RPM's you're running on a particular pass.*
Why support the plate only at the ends, so the center can sag? Is the goal to have the center thicker than the edges? Little confused by this one…unless there are supports under the center of the plate that I just cant see.
The workpiece looks to be symmetrical. What did the opposite side look like?
The problem with the plate pitting was due incorrect water treatment. If they has the correct water treatment they would not have has to acid clean it. I worked in a machine shop and on chillers. I was over water treatment for several years on Air compressors and chillers