The Time Madeline Kahn Put Drag on Primetime TV
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- čas přidán 27. 04. 2020
- Did you ever hear about the time Madeline Kahn used a failing sitcom to introduce America to radical queer theater, convincing ABC to broadcast an appearance by one of the most subversive drag artists in the country? This is the story of how Charles Ludlam, Charles Pierce, and Charles Busch revolutionized queer theater, and how their influence can still be found on your favorite drag shows to this day.
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"An empire waist after the empire collapsed."
Wow. Not to feed into the gay-guys-have-the-best-burns stereotype, but that was absolutely masterful.
It's 20s but much less funny that way.
L O N G G G torso energy
Why is that? I'm surrounded by boring people
We need a movie about these performers called "Charles! Charles! Charles!"
Or, at least, a Culture Cruise.
Veronica
I like "The Blessed Trinty." Or is that too Catholic?
Yes we do they are true trailblazers!!!
Yes!!! I'd watch it.
Madeline Kahn was taken away from us far too soon. It’s a shame she’s no longer with us.
I got to see her on Broadway!
Yippee!!!🤩😍🥰
@@thomasnuedling9167 How AWESOME!! 👏👏 I'm jealous (in a positive way) 👍
Interesting responses considering she died on my birthday in 1999!
Amen! I don't think she ever really knew how talented she was. I loved her and miss her to this day!
@@annek1226 & she had the same bday as my dad ( Sep 29th) My dad loved her work ; he was an comic actor himself who lived to 93 but we lost Madelyn Kahn far too soon .😕
About Disney probably banning Charles Pierce from dubbing a female character in Duck Tales, it turns out that in the 80s a female character in an animated Disney movie was voiced by a male actor--on the Latin American dubbing of The Little Mermaid, Ursula's voice was dubbed by Mexican drag queen Serena Olvido (neé Ángel Garza).
I for one was disappointed that the live Little Mermaid did not seize the opportunity to run with drag queen Ursula (though I'm sure it's been done plenty of times elsewhere).
@@SarahElisabethJoyal I'm glad we went with Pat, though after Bea Arthur turned it down! Pat Carol's laugh IS Ursula.
Love this
So many Charles drag queens. Could almost say that Charles was in charge!
That was nearly the title of this video
@@MattBaume the one you chose definitely encapsulated the vid better but daaang that pun would have been great to use lol
and, while it's his surname.. RuPaul Charles? coincidence? yes XD
And Chandler Bing's dad...
"basically, make it funny, make it gay, and audiences would keep coming back for more." i mean, that's fully applicable today tbh!
It's how I try to live my life
Hence all the Tony's won for Mel Brooks' "The Producers".
By the way, can we all take a moment and appreciate Tiffany's tight gold trousers during the seduction scene?
I wonder if Charles brought his own wardrobe for that.
I couldn't help but be drawn to them, pretty sexy
"Crystal Love" and "Tiffany Night" are names so so so dragqueen. Fabulous!
I would absolutely be down for a resurrection of those characters
Madeline stole my heart as Ms. White in Clue-flames...at the side of my face...-but all her work has always resonated. I had no idea she was such an ally. How very cool. Thanks for another look at things we ought to have known but do now. 💗✨
Years ago I discovered the Charles Busch documentary "The Lady in Question is Charles Busch" on DVD at the Seattle Public Library and it changed my life!
It's so good! I wanted to include content from that doc in this video but the library is closed indefinitely, it's not streaming anywhere, and the online store I bought a DVD from suspended their shipping right after I put in the order. ARGH
@@MattBaume Well....if you want I can send you a link to download it.
I didn't learn of him until he appeared on the soap OLTL. I then went and found out as much as could about him and his performances. As an aside, while I kept expecting a "man in a dress" comic reveal on the soap, it never occurred. I think I remember reading somewhere later that they were playing it straight, so to speak, and that character was always meant to be a cis-woman and that is how it was portrayed. It was a small comedic role, but I was instantly enchanted by the performance. I'll have to check the documentary.
I LOVE Madeline Kahn, she was a national treasure.
I love how long and detailed this culture cruise was. As always a pleasure!!
I remember reading a review of Vampire Lesbians of Sodom back in the 80s. It actually induced me to dress as a very L A R G E version of Elvira for Halloween once.
That is AMAZING and I'm sure Elvira would be so happy to know about that.
@@MattBaume As far as I know, Cassandra Peterson, aka, Elvira, Mistress of the Dark, is still alive and working.
Love that! I went to college on the east coast in the late 80s/early 90s and got to see the play. It was hilarious.
Yaay! Matt is blessing us with some cool quarantine content ❤
Seems like a good time to give folks funny stuff to think about!
I love this woman more than words could say.
So much history I wouldn't know about if not for Matt Baume. It's greatly appreciated.
Matt, I love your channel, you’re an absolute delight. Madeline Kahn has always been one of my favorite comedic actresses, but you’ve made me love her all the more.
When I went to Hofstra from 99-03, Madeline Kahn and Charles Ludlum were frequently mentioned as noteworthy alumni of the Drama Department.
Ha, I'm sure they're proud of them now! They had a rough time when they were there as students though.
@@MattBaume The story we got about Madeline was that she changed her major to music after she didn't get cast in a part she wanted.
It would be awesome for you to do a comparison of the two 1982 cross-dressing movies, Tootsie and Victor/Victoria. While I enjoyed Tootsie when I saw it as a kid, in retrospect it is very problematic. The "protagonist" is a young, white male actor (for whom the vast majority of acting roles are made for) can't get work because he is a jerk to work with. So instead of changing his ways, he schemes to take a role meant for an older, "un-glamorous" woman- for whom there are almost no good acting roles. His "un-wigging" while funny, also means that role is gone for good and it or any similar role is not likely to be attempted again anytime soon on that soap. Compare this to V/V where Victoria not only creates a role that never existed before, she starts a fad in Paris so even more "gender-bending" roles are in demand. Plus Tootsie has a bunch of lazy gay-panic jokes. While I still love Bill Murray's part, it's clear that was just him riffing and not to the credit of the script. In terms of being progressive, the "lightweight, screwball comedy" was way ahead when you have the opening scene with Robert Preston in bed with his male lover in a PG movie! The best scene in V/V is when Jim Garner kisses "Victor" and says "I don't care if you are a man". When "Victoria" comes clean and says "I'm not a man"- a lesser movie would have put a joke there and have Garner say "Oh thank God!" but instead he says "I still don't care". Plus the relationship between Toddie and Squash was downright sweet and inspiring to this gay teenager when compared to the sea of homophobic movie and tv portrayals of gays (you were either a serial killer, a pedophile, or an object to be pitied) that were its contemporaries.
You are really selling the hell out of this as an episode, I want you to know. Plus, since I don't...think?...Matt has done an episode on Cabaret, it opens up the whole fasci(st)nating history of male and female drag in Interwar Europe, and what an enormous loss it was, since V/V was based on a German film that came out the same year the Nazis came to power. V/V is both subversive (at least for the 80s) and incredibly classy and classical. It sounds like a PERFECT episode.
I first saw V/V as a 13 year old and fell in love with it. I even bought a VHS copy. I think it stands the test of time.
BTW I am a queer cis-gendered female but gay male storylines have always appealed to me since childhood. I guess camp has always been one of my preferred languages!
I was just thinking Matt should do a video on Victor/Victoria. Faux Queens are incredibly interesting.
but the role of tootsie, initially, is not a good role, it's Dustin Hoffman's character (forgot his name on the film) who starts to demanding for more content, using his "masculine" traits, while on the other hand, Jessica Lange's character, along with the other female characters, don't demand the same thing, being "feminine" and passive. In the end, being treated as a woman teachs Dustin to be sensitive with other people, especially because the director of the soap opera had some of the same attitudes. The whole point of the film is that men can learn something from women, and that women need to stand up for themselves. It's probably not sooo progressive by nowadays standards, but I wouldn't call it problematic.
@@andrewklang809 Dreamsounds did an interesting video touching on Disney through wartime and drag/Q depictions as well... I'd have to drum it up, they also mention the Latin Drag queen who did Ursula's dub and cinema coding...
The birdseed thing was later used for Meat Loaf's fat suit in Fight club. It weighed over 100 pounds!
Even though it was so long ago I have fond memories of Oh Madeline. I don't remember the context but I remember her lines "Ah I laugh at that!", "I am not a Bimbo!" and a story about how she broke a limb or something on a skiing trip where she had been told to just follow the person in front of her and "Imagine my surprise when the person in front of me plowed head first into a tree."
as a non-binary drag performer that's also a theatre major, i absolutely LOVED this video!!! Thank you so much for all this amazing new information about drag performers and how they established different types of theatrical performances!!!
Hello! As a somewhat confused "older" man, would you be so kind as to explain to me what "non-binary" means? I also love your name! Gravity G. Falls. Just remember, EVERYTHING falls eventually! Thanks and have a great day!
@@donniehagy5125 Hey! Sorry I didn't see this til now, but I'm happy to explain! Non-binary is an umbrella term that essentially means not identifying as male or female. There's a spectrum to it and it means different things for different people, but essentially it's a type of being transgender.
This content is incredible! I love seeing this material in the rear-view-mirror with thoughtful analysis. Its so validating.
Ludlam, Pierce AND Bush?
Oh Matt, you are too good to us!
[teardrop] we're not worthy,
[sniffle] we're not worthy.
Thank you so much for this bit about Charles Ludlam. I remember very happily his shows at the Ridiculous Theatre, many of which were reviewed in The New York Times. I felt he was an institution and couldn’t believe it when he died of AIDS. A tremendous loss to the theatre world. He and Everett Quinton doing The Mystery of Irma Vep is one of the most classic theatre pieces ever.
I remember seeing Charles Pierce in the Venetian Room at the Fairmont Hotel in San Francisco.
I was wracking my mind trying to recall where I remember the actor playing the husband; then I looked it up and it turns out James Sloyan played a couple of characters in Star Trek!
Thanks for sharing this. I remember loving Kahn in this show. But I missed this episode. I saw her on B’way in Born Yesterday. I always thought that Vampire Lesbians was produced by the Ridiculous Theatre. I guess I got that missed up. I saw Busch in The Lady in Question. Die Mommy Die is one of my favorite movies!! FYI an empire waist is just under the bust. Madeline sported the drop waist popular in the 1920’s.
Thankyou for the correction. i was just thinking the same. It was such a Baby Jane dress!
This was a fantastic bio on Charles Ludlam; it was especially cool to see some good photographs and footage of his earlier years. He first captivated me when I was only 16 when I saw him in a short but very memorable role in an episode of Tales from the Darkside, but its his performance as the lawyer Lamar Parmentel in “The Big Easy” that is most memorable. I know he was primarily a man of the theatre, and his plays are still admired and performed today, but I do wish he’d done more on the screen; he was always a pleasure to watch!
Thank you SO much for talking about Charles Busch!! He's one of my biggest heroes and inspirations and it feels so great to see his amazing work recognized :')
This seems like an odd coincidence that this many famous drag performers were all named Charles.
I’m watching Tootsie for the first bc of you. It’s sooooo good.
Ah that's great! I hope you enjoy it!
Oh, Matt. My wife and I adore Madeline and your channel. This is a perfect episode. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Aw yay so glad you're enjoying it! :D
This brought tears to my eyes! Literally! I LOVED this lady! I never really knew much of Charles Ludlam. Now I will seek out as much as i can. I am so thankful for this channel!
By far one of my favorite actresses. Taken from us too soon. Rest in peace dear lady.
I was in a production of Ludlam's "The Mystery of Irma Vep," which is an amazing show with tons of drag, old movie references, old theater references, and lots and lots of quick changes.
I've never seen it live but I really want to! It must be so fun to be in.
@@MattBaume EXHAUSTING but so fun. The only play that's harder to switch characters in is Greater Tuna.
Wanted to say .... dahling ... I just LOOOOOOOOVVVE cruising with you!
Liked, subbed & all that jazz!
Charles Busch is so wonderful. I was able to purchase his campy movies on dvd. Die Mommy Die is one of my favorites.
At about 18:02 a lovely man I grew up with in a small town is in the purple suit- Richard, aka Major Scales- and wow does it make me happy to see him in your video!! Him and Jinkx are amazing performers! Ben too of course! :)
Major Scales is the best! He wrote the theme song for our podcast Queens of Adventure!
@@MattBaume Oh my gosh that's amazing!! I had no idea, he's so damn talented
I am so happy to see Charles Ludlam mentioned. I haven't heard his name in years but he was an amazing performer and director.
And now Jinx Monsoon is appearing on Broadway in Chicago!!
Thanks so much for finding this footage of Ludlum. And great documentary about the Charles3
THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! I always loved Pierce in "Torchsong," and always have loved "scag drag." I am 51, and you JUST introduced me to where this all came from! P.S., my first drag show seen was at tha Pink Flamingo, in Detroit, at 17, in 1985, after attending an HIV/AIDS conference. The queen, whose name I've forgotten, performed, in pink chiffon, Julie Brown's, "The Homecoming Queen's Got A Gun." Literally my first drag show. Now, I'm a proud member of the over sixty member Knoxville Gay Men's Chorus. Several members do drag, some scag. I will share this immediately with them all.
Very nice, I was lucky to see most of them perform live, Camille was actually the first play I laughed aloud for the entire performance. Their timing was awesome. I believe he had a troop of actors he worked with. I give all of them much credit. They would do all the work on their productions in NYC, and we would all show up. Camille would have been such a hit on Broadway, it is a shame that prejudice prevented the world from experiencing such humor and comic timing.
Love the three Charles you highlighted! Back in the early 90s at UNM while in graduate school I unsuccessfully tried to mount a production of Vampire Lesbians of Sodom but backwater Albq. NM couldn't seem to tolerate such a show at that time and the friend I asked to play one of the lead Lesbians did it 5 years later. Sigh. I got better acquainted with Charles Ludlam during my graduate studies in theater and wrote several papers about his work and did a parallel mini-thesis comparing some of his ideas with Michel Foucault's social power dynamics analysis for a class in modern Rhetoric. I have always loved Charles Pierce and glad he was in the movie of Torch Song Trilogy. My favorite line of his in the movie is, "My god! You have such a high voice for a lesbian!"
Well-researched, detailed, and mad fun to watch... good on ya, Matt!!!
Charles Busch in Die Mommie Die is flawless.
Excellent vid! Fascinating. Thanks for posting.
Thank you for this Madeline Kahn is my hero and I did not know this thank you!! I love her role as Vicky in High Anxiety the most
Thank you for this. Madeline is one of my favorites and I miss her so much. I'm old enough to remember this show and this episode, I'm actually shocked that no Queen has chosen her for Snatch Game of RPDR. Happy Pride Month to you, much love!!! ❤
Thank you for this loving tribute to the Charleses. I came here from a Madeline Kahn YT rabbit-hole, and this made it even better.
What a fun watch this was. Thanks and stay awesome, Matt!
This is the best video I’ve watched in months. Thank you so much for educating us. I’ve always loved Madeline (especially in Clue and What’s Up Doc) but I never knew a lot of this, and for that I thank you x
This kind of content is just the pick me up I needed with the stress of the times! Great work as always Matt! :3
Always checking in for Madeline content
Thank you so much for getting the ball rolling on my interest in this topic!
You're the reason this episode exists. Thank you.
Just watched Blazing Saddles again this past weekend. Madeline Kahn was fucking awesome.
I really loved this video. So very, very, very funny! Please don't ever stop making these.
That sitcom was... weird
Upvoting for Ducktales
Bless their hearts, they tried. It's a shame Madeline was cast in such a cliche role -- I think they just didn't know what to do with her. Today I think she'd get a show with Tina Fey and they'd be amazing together.
I totally remember Oh Madeline... I was about, at the time! For some reason, that Johnny Mathis episode stands out in my mind, the most!
We lost Madeleine to soon,thanks to CZcams we can watch her beautiful and talented work.
When I didn’t think I could love Madeline more you proved me wrong.
Thanks Matt for the Culture Cruise today, it gave me a smile!
thanks for the awesome video. it gave me a newfound appreciation for Madeline Kahn. she was taken from us way too early.
I admit I took this episode for granted when it first aired. I would have been about 16 or so. I didn't realize at the time that drag performers were rare on tv. I watched it and laughed and thought it was better than most in the series. I didn't realize I was viewing something groundbreaking.
Great work, Matt. Stuff we were too young to notice at the time.
Thank you. This is so delicious. I loved Ludlum's theater company. Many great laughs.
Thanks for brightening my day!
I remember Charles Bush, there was a documentary about him on PBS.
Paper Moon was a classic..I had no idea a hot dog was also called a coney island.
Probably one of your best episodes. Tied all the different threads so nicely.
Thank you! There really was a LOT to link together in this one!
Madeleine Kahn for snatch game please ;)
Isn't it BANANAS that nobody's done her yet???
Yaaaaas!
@@MattBaume Ridiculously gigantic shoes to fill and I imagine it would either be a grand slam or a strike out that puts one in the dugout forever. Aiden Zhane's Patricia Quinn was awful and surely pissed off RHPS fans, but bombing with Madeline would surely piss off almost everyone.
"almost" being the operative word...
Seattle is so lucky to have these two amazing performers! I wish they had more resources and access to bigger venues. They are amazing!
Thank you for that Matt. Love you.
This is the best..thank you!
Marcy Carsey and Tom Werner.
Thank you for educating us squares.
These are FANTASTIC
I love this channel. It's so important.
These videos are so interesting! I've learned a lot about LGBT history and learned a whole lot about sitcoms I haven't watched. So interesting and enjoyable. Keep it up!!
I've heard of Charles Ludlum. I've been a volunteer at the theaters that show his plays. It's funny, funny stuff.
Ahoy sailor! Just stopping by to say, I love these videos!
Was Dynasty a thing when this episode aired? They seem to be going for a Krystle vs Alexis riff...
Also, Ludlam's entrance outfit reminds me of the outfit Dominique wears the first time she meets Alexis.
I'd always wondered how "Oh, Madeline" arrived DOA. I remember Ludlow's episode. Fun fact: back in 1958 while Dad was courting Mom, he took mom's on a date to Finocchio's. An unusual way to close the deal, but hey, I'm here, so it must have worked.
I love Charles Busch and Die Mommie Die. I'd love to see Lesbian Vampires of Sodom and the show he did with Lypsinka. I love the energy they have together in Drag Time.
Looked up Vampire Lesbians Of Sodom after you mentioned it because...how could I not, and one of the aforementioned vampire lesbians is named...you guessed it, MADELAINE!! IT'S ALL CONNECTED
I love this episode
"Keep it Gay, Keep it Gayyy, Keep it Gaaaayyyy!!!"
Main take away from this vid: all great drag queen are named Charles. Guess I’ll have to change my name to ever stand a chance.
As you started talking about Barney Miller I thought you were going to discuss the season one episode nine episode titled “Vigilante” Part of the episode dealt with a neighborhood vigilante but the secondary storyline was about a transvestite that was arrested simply for walking through Greenwich Village dressed in women’s clothes. Barney tells him that it is illegal to attempt to conceal his identity. It’s a very interesting episode.
Always love your videos. You are the only LGBTQ+ focused channel I am subscribed to because maybe ur the best one IMHO, but possibly I don't know enough about other channels
Hi again from Mexico
Hola!
I forgot that Madeline Kahn had her own show. This would have been a great one to watch. Shame we lost her
0:00 so that’s where Logan’s ”seething flames on the side of my face” comes from
Very interesting Matt. Thanks
Best way to start this video lol love it.
Thank you for this video
I learn so much from you
I appreciate the history of our culture you always get to teach us. Children are raised hearing history of their culture and family through relatives. But as gays don’t offspring gay kids, we have no connection to our history until we get old enough to seek it out.
The "take things very seriously..." quote is good advice for writers & performers generally. Punch up while reaching down.
I'd love to see your take on Some Like It Hot
"vampire lesbians of sodom" might be the best title of anything I've ever heard ever