Will your keel fall off? Bavaria - Episode 119 - Lady K Sailing
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We explore Bavaria Yachts and Keel Failures on Sailboats
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For ocean crossings on a budget and limited crew, long-keelers are probably the best. They keep a straight course with any decent wind-vane, the tiller and propeller are protected by the keel, and the keel will never fall off.
Fun Fact, That picture of Alex Thompson’s Hugo Boss was actually from a routine capsize test because those IMOCA’s can flip themselves back over using their canting keel.
right--pretty jive of this guy when using the phrase " yachting world was turned upside down" to use that image on screen. and ends with he just doesn't like the interiors of the boats " the keels fall off of".
I have a Bavaria 41 cruiser 2014mod living full time in the Mediterranean since 2016 logged over 16000 nm no problem no damage no issues and very happy with performance and build quality it’s fully equipped with 55 hk Volvo engine freezer And big fridge ,washing machine water maker ,radar ,ais ,700 w solar panels ,850 amp house bank ,bow truster has own battery and my favorite peace of kit my 25 kg Rocna ankor 👍Bavaria is a good choice big copit and swim platform that makes easy access in port and at anchor have been in full storm more than once and she feels stiff and very well built 👍
try cross the ocean a few times bavaria is made for Med only i guess
I crossed from Norway down in to the med on the Atlantic side 👍
But ugly as hell
@@SuperDirk1965 I really think they're pretty
This makes me appreciate that I had a molded in fin keel..no joint or bolts on my boat.
Our Bavaria hit an underwater obstruction in France back in 2007, The matrix holding the keel was cracked and it was repaired in France by a registered Bavaria agency. Fast forward to 2018 when cracks were found in the matrix again. These caused a great row between our insurers and the owners. The final cost of the second repair was around $20,000.
I have a Beneteau now and previous boat was an encapsulated keel, and people that say they are better ,well they have issues too , have a hard grounding they crack too . I've seen a blue water full keel take on a lot of water and not from a grounding waves pounding cracking the keel and my Beneteau suffered nothing.
Water gets into keel either thru bilge or hidden crack freezes in winter bulging and more issues. No one boat is perfect and Bavaria did correct problems with keels by adding big stainless plates connected together under the keel bolts in a recall
A few years ago my wife and I visited Boot Düsseldorf and so had an opportunity to view many many boats. We were going to purchase a Bavaria Vision and so drove to tour the factory. We were very impressed with their production but decided that the Bavaria Cruiser is a better fit for us (although upon returning to the US found and purchased a used boat). From my observation, and the reason I was going to purchase a Bavaria, is that they were very innovative on space utilization and everything that was made of metal (like hinges etc) was much beefier and sturdier than on the Beneteau or Jeaneau. Take a look, for example, at the swim platform mechanism. If I was to buy another boat, Bavaria would be at the top of my list.
I bought a bavaria C46 back in 2017 and I love it! I got the boat fully equipped for 179 000€, an extremely good deal for a 46 foot sailboat. She particularly impressed me with her speed, I once got her up to 16 knots of boat speed over ground, she was designed by Bruise Farr so it's not a surprise that she sails well, and she was very controllable because she has twin rudders. On the keel topic, bavaria keels are built in 2 parts, the upper part is fitted in the factory. It gets laminated and bolted into the hull by 24 bolts, the lower part of the keel has to be fitted just before the first splashing when the boat is being delivered and it's attached by another 10 bolts. The reason why it's made in 2 parts is because of shipping, my boat has the deep performance keel and it drafts 2.3 meters, so trucking a boat which is that tall on a trailer from south germany to the nearest sea is very complicated, and with the shallower draft it's made much easier. My buddy (who owns the charter company in wich my boat is) has owned a bavaria 42 match for 12 years already, he raced in lots of regattas and many years of charter use and abuse yet he hasn't had a single issue with his keel. We do acasionally race each other, even though I almost always win😆
I have a Match 42. No issues - lovely fast boat. All Match 42's has been reinforced around the keel bolts by Bavaria following the loss a keel in a race where one sailor died.
@@briansrensen8204 I know the guy who was the race director when this tragedy happened in Croatia. Believe me, this Match 42 went aground in Pula a day before the race. My friend wanted to take it out from the race but it was told him to shut up. The sponsor did not want any delay of the race. So, it was not Bavaria's fault. Unfortunately the crew did not know anything about it. The Hungarian guy who died, was lost in the sea because it happened around 9 pm. I also have a Bavaria from 2003 without any problems. When a sailboat's keel fall off, something has to happen before.
@@KarlDeWolf2020 Did not know the background. Bavaria had to stop the production of the match series because of this. Agree, a keel does not just fall off, but I believe the construction was in fact quite weak for a +2 m draft torpedo keel. I'm glad mine is reinforced.
Only true blue water boat is Kracken
I have an S and S Swan 47 - 1977 and the structure will last forever. They are amazing boats.
I have a Swan 38 and echo your comment. Best. Boat. Ever.
So your video title is provocative and invites yet more speculation and grandstanding.
However, there are a few points you made well. A few points that you clearly made badly.
Before continuing I have to declare an interest. I am the ex Vice Commodore of the Bavaria Owners Association (BOA) I have owned 3 Bavaria's. The latest from new, and two others that were less than 4 years old at purchase. This all over a 30 year period.
I am a chartered structural engineer, have a degree BSC(Hons) in engineering and MBA in electrical engineering. Therefore I can speak from both personal experience, 30 Years + of sailing Bavaria's and what is more a level of technical knowledge or understanding you probably do not have.
Since retiring 3 years ago at 55 years old, we have started to sail the world slowly in a Farr designed Bavaria 37 Cruiser 2015 build. We have been documenting our travels and sharing knowledge on CZcams for over three years.
The issues around the Bavaria keels are based around one boat from the match series. This boat had been raced, chartered, and grounded at least 3 times. Hard grounding in the last case on rock in pounding seas.
Neverthertheles, Bavaria recalled all the match series boats for remedial action. 98% Of the current owners were contacted. All were inspected and some had remedial works carried out by Bavaria's approved contractors. No other Bavaria has ever lost a keel at sea.
If you take the time to investigate thoroughly, you will find that nearly all makes of bolt on fin and bilge keel boats, from Westerly Yachts , Moody and Jennaeu and not excluding Oyster, Northshore and Southerly have had issues based on keel joints or hard grounding damage.
These issues are not limited purley to so called "Production Boats". Halberg, Contest and many others have all had issues around keels, keel bolts and either flexing and/or delamination or partial parting of the keel from its manufactured position at the keel joint.
The vast majority of these are isolated to race boats, charter vessels and ex charter vessels. These are boats that have had a hard life, been sailed like they were stolen, or been run aground at speed under full sail into an immovable object. When recaching the second hand market, rather than taking these considerations in to the purchase price, the new owners do not employ a surveyor with sufficient knowledge, expertise or information. A year later on the first hall out, they are surprised to find both latteral and longitudinal flexing of the keel to hull joint. (With the exception of Oyster Yachts, where there was both a manufacturing issues and a design issues. Resulting in their receivership).
There are in my opinion a number of issues you have not covered.
All modern boats are "production boats". Each one is built to order based on a production timeline or program. (Unless you enter the 100ft plus market of one off custom built designs).
Yes, this includes Rassy, Amel and others. There is no fundamental design issue with any of these boats, including but not limited to Bavara. Indeed their (Bavaria). production includes vacuum injection, closed cell cores and multi laminates that the best so called "bluewater boats" do not. Some are still hand lay up and balsa cored! A technique that is known to have inherent problems at a later date. Yet is "Cheap".
Fin keeled boats are generally well designed. Most above 32 Ft are certified A class under the European Boat Directive and very capable of crossing oceans. Fast!
However; What they do suffer from is abuse in the hands of the ill trained, ill advised and those with the expectation that a 15 year old 4 owner, ex racer/charter boat has never been raced hard. Grounded hard, or at the last lifting before sale, has been patched up, or had issues, hidden under several layers of antifoul and a big "gob" of sika-flex or filler.
Singling out Bavaria where 87% of all the sail boats they have ever made are still sailing, seems in my opinion to be alarmist, headline grabbing and not in the spirit of a real sailor.
Sail Safe Guys, Ant, Cid & the pooch crew.
I ordered a 37 today , can you give me a link to your CZcams videos , would love to hear more
@@aridstyle CZcams search SV Impavidus.
@@aridstyle Just search CZcams SV Impavidus or click on the round photo next to this post.
Dude needs a hobby
Bavaria hired Farr to fix there public image , Witch wasn't good .
A fairly new CZcams couple (ExpeditionEvans) bought a yacht whereby the keel had severe damage. They are doing a great job of getting it back into shape.
Yes they are smart enough to ask people who know (and that's not 'know it all, home baked experts' like found every day on forums) and THEY (Brett and Jade), are in fact doing an excellent job. The finished result is much stiffer and stronger than it will ever need to be and they will be perfectly safe in any conditions that they will face. Their modern yacht is far better than 99% of these 'back yard built kit yachts' that those suckers who build them think are legendary! Just like cars, I'll take a well designed and perfectly well built PRODUCTION YACHT over a home made piece of 'legend in their own lunchbox' every time. Yes I've sailed HARD in seas and winds in long (over 600nm) off-shore races that these 'cruiser experts' in their old yachts have likely never seen, except when heaved too or with a drogue out!!
@@stevenr8606 You sound like you might be one of those 'legendary experts in all things' ;)
So much depends on what use you put the boat too. There is little stress sitting at the dock or pottering around the Mediterranean. The challenge is when you start doing long offshore passages where the boat is subject to constant stresses. Under such circumstances, any weakness in the design or construction will be exposed.
If you want to see what can happen to a production boat's keel, Go watch the Expedition Evans channel here on YT. The channel is the story of a young couple that bought a VERY nice Benneteau 45, that was actually a Salvage boat. it was Salvage because the previous owner grounded the boat and torqued the keel and then had it repaired wrong. So it was intentionally bought by them as a "Project Boat".
The amount of labor they have had to put into this boat is MIND BOGGLING They literally took apart the ENTIRE salon down to the hull, sanded the entire hull down, hogged out all the damage, removed the keel (which took a HUGE hunk of the hull with it! OMG!! ) and re-glassed the entire midsection of the hull to a thickness TWICE that of the original manufacturing spec. They recently had it inspected and the inspector was quite impressed with the work they did. But I have to say, just watching the insane volume of labor they have had to put into it put me off production boats FOREVER. I won't touch them EVER after watching the Evans' couple slave away.
Also, it is worth noting that as they took apart the gorgeous salon you could see what everything was made from. CHEAP LAMINATED PARTICLE BOARD as far as the eye could see. And yet Benneteau charges an arm and a leg for these boats. FOR PARTICLE BOARD!
Never. NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER will I buy a Production boat.
EDIT: Just one make that is considered "Production" that I would except from the above statement: Island Packet boats with full keels. Because, well, full keel. Duh.
The Evans boat is actually a 49' Beneteau and I don't believe the panels were particle board but everything else you say is right on - the boat's interior is held together by screws like Ikea furniture! The rebuild of the boat is a massive project and the two owners do an great job of documenting the massive repair job.
@@OKuusava isn’t Magic Carpet the one that a crane dropped? If the same one, it’s actually an excellent and strongly built Swedish design, Vindo, not Jeanneau,
Personally I have raced Bavaria yachts (Vision 50 - it's the one with the big tall rig and the 5 tonne 2.4m lead keel) in both southern and northern hemispheres and in long off-shore CAT 1 and CAT 2 ocean races. I've been through extended periods (12-18 hours) of 65 knots plus (gusting to almost 80 knots, regularly) under racing conditions and the yacht has always be FLAWLESS! Never a groan, a moan or any thing but 100% confidence. This Bavaria bashing (and production boat bashing) is like Volvo bashing.... done by people who have NO FRIGGING CLUE and have themselves probable never done anything but cruise in calm seas in their slow old homebuilt pieces of garbage. Where would be be without 'Production Cars'???? are 'Kit Cars' somehow better than 'Production Cars' I don't bloody think so!!! What a stupid argument they put forward..... over and over and over!! I'll take a German (French or any other) production boat over any of their 'back yard jobs' every day of the year.... even Tuesdays! There are orders of magnitude (that's 10's or 100's of times as many) more production yachts circumnavigating the world at any time and a couple have failed..... There are also plenty of documented failures of 'those special back yard built boats' and there are by comparison HARDLY ANY out there!! You guys 'cruiser experts' have NO IDEA what it's like pushing a yacht HARD 24 hours a day in a race with everything stressed to the limits and the good old production boats like the Beneteau First series in particular have been overall winners at one time or another, of nearly every one of the global Rolex ocean races in the past 20 years. I could go on for pages, but you old guard are "there are none so blind as those who will not see". PRODUCTION YACHTS RULE - that's why they are SO SUCCESSFUL and percentage wise, ALMOST ZERO % failures!!! :) :) :)
@@bellasassysailing2191 wow.. that was a little overly defensive. The discussion is around the matrix structure the production boat manufacturers use and the fact that it weakens quickly with groundings - hence the Evan’s boats and other similar failures, and if these groundings and consequent impacts are not managed, then issues do arise. And yes, many of us do know about not only pushing a boat hard offshore racing, but also about owning the yacht that is being pushed hard and the consequent responsibility for the people aboard and the maintaining the boat itself. Its also lovely to see how much you enjoy being aboard well maintained production boats, I think all sailors would aspire to that.
@@bellasassysailing2191 Actually, I don't own a boat. Any boat. Not even a canoe. However I have been watching the "boating scene" for awhile, making eventual plans to buy a boat for cruising in my retirement. Your attitude (as if I give a fuck about boat racing. lol) and what I have seen about "production" boats has taught me that it is worth my while to save extra to get a properly constructed, full keel (or some variant thereof) boat that I can rely on to be tough, stable, and reasonably low maintenance. I could care less if it is the slowest boat on the ocean, and racing doesn't mean shit to me. I want Stable, Reliable, Durable, Tough, and able to go into all sorts of interesting places, with minimal concern about the anchorage depth. Because I will be an older gentleman with little ability to spend months tearing apart my boat just because I bumped my keel on a coral head on the way into or out of an anchorage.
I love this series, thank you 😊👍
You talk about finding out everything you can about a specific model of boat before you buy, I love to see a video outlining the process you use 👍
Jeffery search the forum of the boat manufacturer you are interested in and read about model. If you don't find a topic about keels mentioned post your question to get a response.
Me too. I am always up to learn from others how they do things.
Over the years I've seen many keel issues but it tends to be design specific rather than manufacturer although some manufacturers have had maybe two or three designs that have caused concern.
For example I've have had to fix four Sun Odyssey 34 keel roots as the matrix is so badly designed. Westerley, Moody, Hanse & Dufor have all been through the yard having had keel issues, normally due to matrix issues.
Southerly and Ovni lifting keel boats arn't without issues either.
Plus a regular one or two a year from the encapsulated keel yachts that use cast iron as the ballast as these rust and blow the encapsulation over time.
Even though I've read about Bav keel issues I've never had to deal with one.
I have however had to deal with numerous other issues with Bav's from badly corroding printed circuit main panel boards, though delaminating hull deck joints to totally inadequate backing plates on deck fittings, chain plates etc.
The way you said Germany made it sound like a mystical place.
Thankyou for your unbiased review. I wonder how much jealousy and brand envy those people, you mention, that are bashing the production boats have.
A lot :(
Just take a look at what Parley revival shows hidden behind the interior panels, a disgusting piece of shit construction, not jealous nor envious of that piece of shit.
@@LadyKSailing Bavaria keel failures number, 3. One was a very very old 390 with a dubious and unknown history. The other 2 were Match 42's one which had grounded at least once.... However the real issue with the match is not grounding. The Match series had a VERY thin layup on the hull to save weight and the keel has a very narrow mating surface. Yes this was looking for trouble in the attempt to make a lighter faster yacht that was REALLY aimed at racing and NOT to be in the 'smash -up' charter industry as many ended up in. Personally I have raced Bavaria yachts (Vision 50 - it's the one with the big tall rig and the 5 tonne 2.4m lead keel) in both southern and northern hemispheres and in long CAT 1 and CAT 2 ocean races. I've been through extended periods (12-18 hours) of 65 knots plus under racing conditions and the yacht has always be FLAWLESS! Never a groan, a moan or any thing but 100% confidence. This Bavaria bashing is like Volvo bashing.... done by people who have NO FRIGGING CLUE and have themselves probable never done anything but cruise in calm seas in their slow old homebuilt pieces of garbage. Where would be be without 'Production Cars'???? Are 'Kit Cars' somehow better than 'Production Cars' I don't bloody think so!!! What a stupid argument they put forward..... over and over and over!! I'll take a German production boat over any of their 'back yard jobs' every day of the year.... even Tuesdays!
@@bellasassysailing2191 EVEN ON TUESDAYS?!? 😅
I really was intrested in this story, but I gave up at the end. First of all Germany is not a city but a country. Bavaria's are build in a city called Giebelstadt. I was there when I bought my Bavaria 42 and I kept this boat for 11 years and did more than 40.000 Nm . I sailed storms, crossed oceans without serious problems. I also worked for the Dutch importer of Bavaria. The keel problems were there, but as far as I know only on the Match series. The problem was that the connection to the hull was small and under pressure (angle) the hull was bending under the weight of the keel.
Further on I never run aground under speed (it seems that I must be a liar). Thrue, sometimes I hit the ground in shallow bays when I was anchering so always under low speed and soft bottoms.
I agree with your opinion about the veneer. I think that the earlier build boats (in the nineties) were of better woodquality, because I was disapointed too when I saw the new build bavaria 42 on a boatshow. Si this said. Keep goiing but improve your research.
Gorgeous boats, nice innovations and standard features
I own a Bavaria 37 from 2000 and am very happy with the boat! The performance is ok, the interior too! And you get a lot of boat for small money
Thx for a thoughtful review!
Another factor in keels falling off is whether the keel is made out of lead or cast iron. In a hard grounding cast iron is going to transfer the full shock to the keel joint where as a lead keel will dent absorbing some of the impact.
Interesting!
Keels don't drop off, but once in a blue moon, usually after a couple of rough grounding. You must be talking about the cruiser-racer Bavaria Match 42 model of around 2004-2005 production, which had a glaring design fault = a ridiculously small backing plate inside for their 2.4 m draft keels. In the first race of a 20 boats fleet, after 10 hours beating to weather in 30 down to 15 kts one keel dropped and several developed cracks around the plate. All boats were banned to dry dock, extensively reinforced with a new ribs and plates and went on racing or many years. I was skippering one on that night, but we were lucky. BTW it was a sweet boat to sail at all points of sailing, including planing.
The Beneteau First 40.7 in the thumbnail ran aground in Portage Michigan in 2008. In 5-8 foot waves, they caught a dock line into their prop on their way through the narrow Chanel. The boat draws 8 feet, they were in 12 feet of water. But the 5-8 foot waves were slamming the keel into the rocky/mud bottom. The boat drifted into shallower water, and after enough slamming the hull structure failed and the keel came off. I think the boat handled very well, for what it was designed to do. Obviously a full keel Morgan or Island Packet would not have had the same fate. But the Beneteau 40.7 is a very fast, one design race boat. I think as long as you are using your boat for what it was designed to do, you are going to be ok.
Just for the sake of argument., even a Oyster has dropped it's keel
gotta check THEM bolts!!!
AND everything else.
Fully encapsulated keel, skeg rudder and protected prop .. (even a cutter on said prop) - is the way to go for ocean and coastal crusing.
True. But it was a very specific case of a brand new radical design of a matrix structure integrated keel / hull that delaminated. Not at all representative of their previous or current designs. They also handled it badly which cost them a lot of reputational damage.
An Island Packet has never dropped a keel. Not one single time.
How about Hanse or Dufour?
@@JD-kf2ki It's possible for any boat that has a bolt on keel to lose it.
I don't know if any boat with an encapsulated keel has ever lost one. I am unable to think of a way that could happen.
As always I enjoy to watch your videos. Very informative and neutral. I'm from Europe but love US craftsman boats like IP. Thanks for the efforts to make this videos. Fair winds.
Love your intros on these videos. Excellent productions. “... on a Tuesday.” 🤣💛
I have always gone for molded in (preferably ) lead keels. With 5 serious cruising boats in my life, I have never had a keel problem of any kind. I have worked for large charter clubs that have had a fair amount of keel and keel bolt issues. In a 60 boat fleet we have never had a keel snap off but we do keep seriously up on the maintenance and care of this area. You have to. Also , an “old “ boat in our fleet would be maybe 7 yrs old. So all pretty new. Bolt ons certainly have much more potential for trouble. And require a good bit more maintenance. Sometimes rather costly too.
And that’s why my boat has an encapsulated long-keel hull. May be a bit slower but it doesn’t slam and if the keel falls off, I have much bigger problems.
And thats why my trimaran has a centreboard that can raise, and the boat won't flip if it falls off.😉
@septembermannen nice boat!
@septembermannen 100%
@@charonstyxferryman True about metal vs GRP but there are different maintenance considerations if steel hulls rust. I don’t know much about aluminium hulls
@@scottlampe70 But it can flip can it not?
Well done and informative video.
Good job. Correct and accurate.
Stay safe
It is important to note that Bavaria's from different periods are completely different, designed by different designers. I have owned 3 Bavarias built in the 2003/2006 period. One B44 and two B 39 Cruisers (not at the same time). The problem is not Bavaria, but the bolt on keel construction used by most production boat builders. I still have a lot of confidence in this design as long as you do not run aground and check them regularly. If you do run aground you need to get the keel lifted and have the keel, bolts, hull and matrix checked professionally to make sure it is still OK. reparing can be done too, as long as it is done by a professional. Be prepared to pay!
"I being a very cautious navigator have never run aground, but there has been multiple times when there has not been enough water to go where I am headed."
The keel stories point to an issue I recently read about in a book called Factfulness. In this book the author, a doctor and researcher, says that any specific number standing on it's own has little value. To this end one has to consider the number as a percentage. Given the number of boats Bavaria makes those numbers will look fairly miniscule. In fact the least research will tell you that the highest percentage of boats that drop their keels are in fact metal. Practical Boat Owner did this comparison fairly recently and proved that sometimes the truth isn't what we'd like to think it is.
Not related to any particular boat but 78 boats have lost their keel in the last 20 years, about the same time companies started making cruisers with bolt on keels. Coincidence??
@@Nozzall Well... No.
But if bolt on keels on cruisers didn't really exist until about 20 years ago, it would stand to reason there wouldn't have been a problem before that time. I believe the point Duke was making was that, if as you say, 78 keels have fallen off, as a percentage of all production boats made since 2000, is that a large number or a small one?
Although how many bolt on keel type boats have left shipyards in 20 plus years isn't known to me, I would assume it's well into the thousands. As such, the failure rate is south of 2% over a period of a decade or more, and I would further assume that, being it is such a low number, the issue would be with keel strikes or other individual occurrences, not a manufacturing issue. I believe it is very safe to assume that essentially all cruisers with bolt on keels will be fine, even if they run aground, as long as you perform inspections after an incident, and regular check ups of the keel bolts and other keel structures.
Thank you..great content..!
You can learn a lot about boat construction and how boats actually hold up in the real world by watching CZcams videos of people restoring hurricane damaged boats
Ive run aground on my Sunfish quite a number of times. A few times a full "hull speed" as you say. A little bubblegum and duct tape - and boom, im sailing again baby. ... same day too. -lol.
The Mary Kay O’Connor lost her keel. There were deaths. Half the crew was below resting when the keel dropped. The boat was being raced by students of Texas A and M. If my memory serves me right the faulty advisor pushed a student through the companion way. The survivors were in the water for several days. This is no joke.
Love the series. Not a lot of Great Lakes sailing channels. I would like to see show on marina/yacht club etiquette for the new sailor.
I am an owner of a Etap 34 S, I would never change to a different sailboat. For me, the security is most important, this boat can not sink, even with a damage on it.
If the keel fell off it would turn over just like the others but would float higher I suppose. I too would like an etap for the same reason, also the insulation must help with condensation and water noise?
I like the looks of the etap.
I ran aground my Dufour last summer at hull speed and having minor cracks on the outer hull and some delamination on the interior. I live in Sweden and the insurance company didn’t hire a professional to asses the damage or establish whose fault it was. I have sailed the boat to a shipyard of my choice and have the company sending the invoice to the insurance company for approval all this happened within a week. Best grounding experience ever 😎!
If your insurance broker wants to post a link here, it might be good for business! Sounds like who I’d want to deal with.
Bavaria boats are "Australianised " when brought here. The keels are just bolted on with washers. Here they are fixed by glassing in a half inch stainless plate with decent bolts attached.
Hey Tim. Great you make this kinds of videos. A must look at for new boat owners. I find the dilemma is that people want as big a boat as poosible for the least amount of money. That is why some brands have succes. I have a saying that "you have to buy the right boat for the right purpose". I myself sail and live on my trusty Moody 36 cc from 1980. An absolut beauty of boat the you can trust her in any weather or circumstances. That is what it is all about. Trust in your boat.. S/Y ZENSEB
Waiting to see you back out there soon dude.
There are some additional key points should be considered. First, many and probably most production boats that incorporate an internal molded matrix to spread keel bolt loads are just bonded inside inside hull with some goop on the flanges. The matrix is not robustly tabbed to the hull and the molded matix is installed AROUND the keel bolts and undersized backing plates, rather than with the keel bolts THROUGH the matrix. I believe this is a fundamental flaw driven by production costs. Back in the days of wooden ships, the keel bolts would pass through beefy floor timbers that locked everything together. Second, even if the hull/keel joint is properly engineered and built, stainless steel keel bolts, which are very common, are susceptible to crevasse corrosion. It is rarely done, but a very good idea to remove the keel every 10-15 years and clean, inspect, and rebed the keel and bolts. At the very least, larger backing plates can then be installed, and better yet, additional fiberglass laid down to better tie all the structure together. And yes, I've had the fin keel off my boat twice for maintenance in the last 30 years. The boat now has larger backing plates and a very beefed up and tied together internal keel support structure and appears ready for another 65,000 nautical miles.
My dad grounded in a bavaria 38 cruiser
With 5-6 knots in norway in what was most likley was a solid rock, the crew got heard quite badly but the boat didnt take water in, however the keel and hull did have significant damages that neede to be fixed.
looking forward to your talk on Jeanneau. I have a 1988 Sundream 28 (lift keel), and Jeanneau of course is now owned by Benneteau
Nice boat!!! It's coming!
@@LadyKSailing When you cover Jeanneau, make sure you include the 2002-2009 Sun Odyssey 54DS, probably the best boat Jeanneau ever built (we own one, so we're slightly biased).
So my wife and I have a 53 foot Spencer Ketch built in Delta B.C. Canada in !980. We ran into our sailing instructor last summer while he was captaining a new Bavaria on a charter it was a 45 foot and it was a very beautiful boat if you like the light wood style. I noticed a stick strapped to the stern with a transducer strapped to it and I had to ask. Turns out the navigation and instrumentation were all integrated and were a Bavaria product . It had been malfunctioning for three months. They had been waiting for a technician that was qualified to work on it for three months so their work around was he was using his laptop for navigation and a cheap portable hummingbird for depth sounding.
Sorry but I would loose my mind if I had paid that much money for a new boat and had this kind of problem. My old spencer has multiple independent and redundant systems that I know well and are reliable. If one goes down I just switch to the secondary system . It might not be pretty but it works . After seeing the problems other people have had with their million dollar new boats it has made me feel a lot better about my old Spencer .
I am thinking of getting into sailing and want a liveaboard boat. one that I can fix up and maybe do blue water. Is a 35 ' to start out on a bad choice and after seeing this should I look for a full keel?
That's a long convo. Happy to have it but way too complicated to have in the comments. Message me on FB and I am happy to help
Thanks for these reviews. Very informative!
Very Happy with our 2005 BAVARIA 39 Cruiser
I do wish that whenever a YT mentions Cheeki Rafiki, they would include all the facts. 1). It was known to have been grounded several times. 2). The repairs to the keel were not sufficient as the keel was never removed/repaired/inspected per the manufacturers recommendation, obviously due to cost that the operator didn't want to pay. 3). The boat was overdue for inspection per its commercial regulations and therefore not in compliance with the applicable laws governing inspections of chartered boats, 4) the crew had reported taking on water for almost a day before it capsized and had emailed and phone called with the operator for hours while the problem worsened - The operator instructed the crew to ready the life raft and that was never done - it was secured in its locker when the boat was recovered. While Cheeki Rafiki was a tragedy because of the loss of life, had the operator not been criminally negligent and had the crew not been careless with emergency procedures (sending emails instead of readying the life raft), maybe the tragedy could have been avoided? Bottom line is, fin keels don't simply fall off on their own for no reason, they generally have to be damaged and not repaired properly to end in disaster like Cheeki Rafiki.
Cheeki Rafiki was a real tragedy.
Hey Lady K, what's your opinion in terms of reliability stories on Oyster Yachts which are production style and Baltic which are more bespoke?
I bought a Catalina 380 with a survey completed , being new to yacht ownership it was apparently good , big step from a Macgregor 26 x . Come to find out the surveyor is not certified and was buddy of the broker ..
A short time after the purchase of the boat we found all kinds of iniquities that should have been mentioned ..
most importantly was the hard grounding and a almost a year of hassle in and out of the boat yard getting it fixed properly
last June we had to have the boat hauled and surveyed for insurance ,low and behold the accredited surveyor had rejected the first 2 attempts at repairing the the keel reattachment ..
well lucky for us it is now better than original .
Just Lucky..
Thank You for your insight Lady k..
Worked in a Boatyard in the Mid seventies where Thirty Foot Production 1/2 Ton Sloops were being rolled out... Keel Plates that were of formed flat rolled steel type and were bonded into the Hull and then the spade keels were then bolted and sealed onto the hull ,but the kicker was that a few of the first production sloops stated showing leaking and cracks on the bottom around the Keel were detected as the Keel suspended on the Hull was flexing same and was trying to tear off those hulls , production stopped , due to safety reasons those boats were recalled and serious refitting was done, with much more rigid bespoke Stainless Steel Channel section plates being fabricated and re glassed into those suspect Hulls and this newer modification was copied through out the latter production sloops...the Mast was stepped onto the Keel so what with the stresses with chain plates these were also upgraded such as stiffening the bulkheads and thicker glassing by bonding of the bulkheads to the deck was completed... Boat are still racing and pleasure sailing today forty five years later...
@@malachy1847
as a repairman from a world of steel , I more often thean not would always make improvements on the original build..
just easier to see the the past flaws when looking at the faileed design or build..
These production boats all look very much alike, inside and out.
Thanks!
Good comments, as you said mostly racers loose keels be interesting to know how many cruisers lost keels as I'll be in the market for a 2003-2005 model in the near future. Thanks again, love this part of your vlog nice to get some history on the vessels. Keep em' coming.
We have a Bav 36 from 2002. Owned her for 6 years. She’s been a great boat, seen us safely through 45 knots of wind, more than once. We’ve had no issues apart from normal wear and tear. Good survey is essential at the start and always walk away from a bad one. Good luck.
@@graemebarriball303 Appreciate the feedback mate, from what I've researched the older ones were built quite well for a production boat??
I'd love to see grampian. there are almost 1000 G26's and it's my boat. I'm moving into my third year sailing. Thanks. Love your channel. Be safe and hope you are well.
Lots of Grampian 26’s on Lake Huron
What about jeanneau 64 integrated keel with the hull(not a bolted keel) and a rudder with steel protection,is that possible?
The term 'production boat' has evolved to become a pejorative term which in a self fulfilling prophesy is then justified every time an 'issue' occurs with a 'volume manufacturer'. The problem here is that if it's made of GRP then it's a volume manufacturer, because only series production can recoup the cost of producing the moulds in the first place. The list then includes the likes of Oyster, Hallberg Rassy, Contest, Najad, Amels, et al. It's possible that none of these have ever had keel issues (nudge wink), but I'd argue all of them are at risk of it by the very nature of the design. There are unfortunate lapses in build quality I'm sure, but I deeeply suspect that in most cases, issues boil down to the moral intergity of owners/operators trying to pass the buck. If you know your boat has taken a hit, or if you know the boat lives a punishing life on the race course, do the right thing and take responsibility.
I'm curious what your take on the old 1972 Challenger 32 ft sailboat is or if you have had any experience on one.
Stories about sailing boats dropping the keels have been around since the 80s.
However, reliable, decent evidence was never provided.
Yeah I used to think the same about hunter as teen becuase of a I shouldn’t be alive where hunter lost it’s keel n capsized In The night.. my dad had a Catalina 30 at the time by graduation he had a hunter n it was always my fear but no realizing that we ran aground couple times in our 83 Catalina 30 twice at decent 5knots that was more a risk of loosing its keel randomly
@@Malibus_Most_Wanted The main reason to to drop a keel is precisely running aground at low speeds.
Usually, overcoming the obstacle.
Á couple years ago a decent, 20 meters sailing boat, made by a well know and respected Corporation, was in toute to the UK or Ireland.
Sailing from Florida.
The boat hás keel problems, due to the aforessaid reasons. However, fixing ter would be a por cheaper in Europev-- I believe she was a Jeanneau.
The Crew was very experient -- two highly respected men..
However, not very far from their final destination, the keel vanished mas Both men passed away.
Never to be found!
Apparently, she was never run aground violently. However, Titanic's passengers didn't feel a thing.
Depending on the angle, an impact Jay be highly violent -- and practicaly not being felt.
In sum, a rigorous maintenance is a must.
Unfortunately, in the Jeannneau's case, the boat was sent across the NORTH ATLANTIC to be repaired in Europe.
With 2 innocent souls abord....
Quid Juris, inquired people with the utmost perplexity?
Another good piece of evidence was found to be wrinkles on the mast where it joins the hull. When hitting the ground with the keel at high speed the mast will bend forward due to its huge momentum and leverage.
Don't lose any sleep over what you think private equity lost after buying and selling Bavaria.
Private equity are experts at ripping companies apart and selling the pieces for more than they paid for the whole company.
Howdy. Just found you. What is the song at beginning and end of your video here? Gotta have it!
Please can I ask your advice ?
I’m in the verge of buying something.I have 30 years experience in motor boats but not sailing yet , my budget is about 70k pounds, what boat would u recommend? Up to 40ft as i intend to spend a lot of time on board at anchor , and I would be sailing solo mostly when I’m good enough ?
Thanks in advance
Look at the square corners on the interior you showed. In heavy sea conditions that is an accident and injury bound to happen. No hand holds, square corners, bad fit and finish leads me to believe its time to move on. For me, big and heavy is the best way to go. Your milage may vary.
I like your honest opinions! Please talk about Hughes and other boats we can find in Ontario! Thanks!
Thanks. I only haven't done Hughes yet because my boat is one lol
Any boat, aside from a fishing trawler, designed without babes in mind is a failure.
Full of brilliant technical insights, even if sandwiched between slower paced meandering discussion. Forwarded to fellow yachtsmen.
People do care that it is Bain Capital. They are known for loading up their acquisitions with debt, forcing them to cut corners, splitting them up, having a reputation for treating their employees atrociously, and more.
As an old sailor, there are two things I'd never buy in a sailboat; fin keels, and deck-stepped masts. One of our top executives who was an ocean racer, totally lost his keel as they were approaching the coast of Ireland. They never hit anything; but as an engineer and knowing that they sailed with the lee rail under, the bending stresses on the fin keel / hull junction caused by waves over 15 or more days of constant pounding and bending probably just caused the keel to break off. His boat instantly turn turtle; his whole crew got on the hull; and the Irish Coast Guard towed them into port.
Deck stepped masts are another idiocy. If you are way out on the ocean; the wind speed keeps rising and the fickle finger of fate intervenes and one of your piano wire stays or shrouds breaks; your mast probably goes overboard. Now what...? If the mast breaks, maybe you can get one of the pieces back on board, but what can you do with it as a deck stepped mast? How can you ever get it in an upright position and hold it in place so that you can jury-rig a sail?
If your mast is keel stepped, and the top half breaks off, the bottom half is still standing, and you can rig a jury sail on the half-mast and continue to your destination. I will never give up a regular old fashion keel or a keel stepped mast for an extra 0.5 knot of speed, that on a long haul is totally meaningless.
Just btw..... many production yachts (including my 2009 Bavaria 50 Vision) have keel stepped masts! My mast is a 305mm x 180mm section and has an air draft of around 23 metres. My keel is 5 tonnes with the bottom lead and the centre cast steel so thick and well bolted through a 40mm thick solid hand laid hull with massive fully glassed-in floor structure that there is nothing short of dynamite that will crack from its structure. I've happily sailed through 18+ hours of 65+ (gusts up to around 80 kts) and huge seas with full confidence and no creaking, moaning or issues of ANY sort. So many ill-informed people speak so much crap around the sailing world that I have a sore stomach with laughing AT them and their stupid stories!!
I have an Islander 30 foot 1972 that appears to be a Bahama model but there is some question about this after some internet research. What can you tell me about this sailboat other than the general information available on the internet?
I have a Jeanneau 36 a bargain replacement for my Cheoy Lee 37 that Irma took away. Lots of work to do on this one. I love the performance of these french boats. What a difference! A friend with much more experience sailing than me said, concerning Jeanneau Vs. Beneteau, that Beneteau is really suited as a coastal cruiser and not strong enough for serious ocean crossing where the Jeanneau is . This sounds good to me as I fix up this old (1984) Jeanneau. Wondering what Mr. Lady K might have to say about that opinion?
Intersting discussion, well articulated. What about Dufour, in this contest? Do y have an opinion about the GL460 for example? Thanks
Your videos are up there with Tom Cunliffe. Excellent content. Thanks.
And what do you think of weighted dinghies and integral dinghies? made of aluminium, steel or even fibre ???? Thanks
Enjoyed, appreciate all the time you put into your reviews, very helpful. Have you ever considered reviewing the Ovni ? They have always caught my eye as being very strong and seaworthy but also shoal draft to access the shallowest of harbors.
The work Parlay is doing really shows how crappily built even some of the expensive production boats are. I have sailed on several Bavaria’s.. new ones are bloody awful floating apartments. A couple of the older ones are ok pre 2007 are ok. So much boat floating above the water, high freeboard = loads of windage. I don’t understand why people want to buy one of these new instead of spending half that to get a well found older boat. I bought a 1974 Swan 38 and have her berthed next to a 2010 Bavaria. They are night and day.. the Bavaria is a good wind protector for my lower slung Swan, sailing wise, my boat out performs in every way - except the storage aspect.. But I can safely walk through her in a 25 heeling angle with plenty of hand holds - can’t do that in these new production boats. Depends what you want I guess. Oh.. and I am the bikini babe that owns the boat.. my husband is the deck candy. Might want to balance that out a bit. Other than that - great channel.
You never ever put the name SWAN in a sentence with any other yacht!!! Geez!! SWAN are so far above anything else on the water it's only a rank amateur who dare compare anything to them! I'm serious... and I own one of the best Bavaria's ever built... the 2009 Vision 50, low freeboard, huge rig and sail area, 5 tonne deep keel and goes like a rocket, but it ain't no Swan!
I just got a 91 Irwin 38 MK Ii and would love to see you do a video on it.
I really like your channel and the content, nice work!!! We are new to sailing and we are loving it. You have really helped us out along the way in so many ways. Thanks for sharing!!!
Great video about draft and keels on boats. You have reinforced my desire for a pre 2008 boat. Thank you
Another great episode. A couple additions might have been in order. The ISAF Offshore committee some years ago established a working group to review. As you said, most were racing boats, most were actually one offs. In the Cheeki Rafiki case Beneteau was not found at fault, but rather the owner was criminally convicted for failure to repair prior damage. And of course a major contributor to Oyster's bankruptcy, one of the class manufacturers, was a keel departure on a recently launched boat. Keep up the great work. The best around.
Would love to hear an episode on Cape Dory!
Oh you will! I can't wait to make it I love cape dory!
You can't have a discussion about the potential failure of fin keels without having a discussion about the potential failure of spade rudders. I've personally sailed on a boat that had at an earlier time lost it's keel. Fortunately the vessel was able to be saved. I'm also good friends of a sailor that was crewing a Farr TP 52 that sank after the rudder came into contact with what they believed to be a sunfish or whale. They were able to "step up" onto the life raft and were immediately rescued by a fellow competitor. The boat however sank in minutes. It's now somewhere at the bottom of the South Pacific Ocean.
It is undeniable that long fin keels and spades rudders are more susceptible to damage. It's also undeniable that not a hell of a lot faster than traditional hull designs. The question is whether speed of durability make for a safer vessel. That's open for debate.
What is your input on the Jeanneau 64?
Love your videos and all your knowledge. Can you do a review of Catalina Yachts?
I did :)
Well said very fair in my eye's
i own a C&C 26, 1977 vintage. Not a lot of these around but I would like to see an episode on this boat. Thanks
At the 2019 Annapolis boat show I was more impressed with the Bavaria boats than Jeanneau. Particularly at the price point. I'm trying to talk the wife into the 50.
0:00 to 0:06 take a look at Expedition Evans and see how bad it is.
that's what i thought i don't think all that separation on there boats grid was down to one grounding looked like it came of the line with issues
Yeah, they found factory patches. It had to be fixed while it was still being built. 🤯
Have you done the Catalina story yet. I would be interested in the frank assessment. Also what about Cabot?
Hi..any views on columbia 34 mark 2...
Hope to see a review on Halberg Rassy soon.
Najad and Malö Yachts should be in that review.
Hi I've got a Bavaria 34 2001 3 cabin model ...had it since 2003 love its interior dark wood lovely finish .. I hate the new versions very plastic looking , great vid thanks
What's your opinion of a 2005 Athena Fontaine Peugeot catamaran I'm looking at one
The price we pay for faster, lighter boats. All the bolt on keels can fall off, most that do will after running aground and most of those from previous owners so unless properly measured and checked you’d never know something was wrong... also most are the later models that most normal people could never afford. BTW Jeanneau are the worst it but all you need do is check prior to purchase: personally I wouldn’t own anything with a bolt on keel or without a skeg hung rudder unless it was trailerable.
Unless a boat has an integrated keel, (No bolt ons, ) has a protected rudder, either by full keel or by a skeg, and is robustly built, It is not a blue water boat suitable for passage making. It should also have a keel mounted mast, heavy duty rig, and oversize furlers and winches, either manual or dual electric manual. In other words it should be tough and resilient. (The current criteria of force 8 and 4 metre waves is nothing close to being resilient).
Another good vid. Looking forward to when you do one on Ericson yachts.