Are DSD DACs always better? - Meitner MA3 Review
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 2. 08. 2024
- The Meitner MA3 is a DSD DAC from Canadian manufacturer Meitner with a number of quite unique design aspects, but is it worth the money?
Meitner MA3 Measurements: goldensound.audio/2024/06/08/...
DIY DACs:
signalyst.com/hardware-products/
puredsd.ru/
Meitner MA3: www.mimic-audio.com/products/...
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0:00 - Intro
0:32 - Build Quality
01:16 - Internals
03:01 - DSD DAC Design
04:15 - Design Challenges
07:48 - Listening Impressions
17:07 - Outro - ZĂĄbava
"switch mode power supply- particularly nice one" = 9$ instead of 5$ đ€«
Meitner is a class act for how they responded to your critique. I saw your communication with them in the Patreon Telegram chat, what a great group of people. If only every company shared their attitude. It would be wonderful if you made a short video discussing that!
I would like to know more about this...
@@chipsnmydip Me too
@@jaybirdius I own some EMM Labs stuff and had good experiences dealing with Amadeus, but never had a conversation about technical stuff/specs with them.
I had no Ideas you could execute such a high level review đ Congrats on Absolutely the most technically thorough, comprehensive reviews I've seen on CZcams.
This is one of your best reviews so far, I think. I really appreciated all the examples you provided where it excels and falls short. I think your descriptions were thorough and helpful. :)
Cameron thank you for your honest and thorough review, always love your work. This was a great video in that I had always wondered about the particular DAC, and feel that you've given me my fill as far as observant curiosity goes. Thank you once again.
It would be great if you could test a playback design dac. Lots of people are saying it's the best DSD DAC out there.
I'd really love to! The MPD-8 is the DAC I've most wanted to try for quite some time
Thanks for the honest review. I hope you review the Holo Cyan 2 and LAiV Harmony Dac's.
Nice review. I'd love to hear your take on the Mola Mola.
Fantastic review. This style of presentation is the best. Probably the best dac review I've ever watched.
Easily one of the greatest audio-equipment-education-focused CZcamsrs. I learn something every time I watch one of your videos; you combine high-quality videography with a tight script, scientific and objective background information, and a clear/concise subjective viewpoint. Now, if only I could afford the subjects of the videos đ
I look forward to your stuff, but DAC reviews, especially negative ones, need a disclosure on your Ferrum Wandla relationship.
That's fair, I'll make sure to include a disclosure in the vid itself in future
Very honest review đ
Looking forward to the Yggy comparison video. I have a LIM and am considering MIB/A2 but there are no comprehensive reviews of the series available.
Thanks for the review ! Will you have the opportunity to test the Laiv dac ?
Yeah I've had one in for a while. For transparency I'm doing some consulting for them so have had a bit of input on the DAC, but it's great for the money
â@@GoldenSound Is it better than Holo May Kte ,T+A Dac 200 or Ferrum Wandla ?
@@sorinnour ehh kinda depends. It's a fair bit warmer/smoother, which some will prefer, but it's also not as detailed/technically capable
â@@GoldenSound Love your reviews and use them a lot for the DAC I am considering. How do you think it compares to the Holo Spring 3?
Also hope you are able to review the Holo Cyan 2 sometime
I'm waiting for the LaiV Harmony GoldenSound Edition which corrects its shortcomings
Great review as always, Cameron! Will you be reviewing the ZMF Bokeh Closed by any chance? Kind regards from Germany :)
Would love for you to have a look at the LAiV Harmony DAC đ, thanks for a great video
Cameron, thank you for another wonderful digital audio converter review! đ
Reverend Dr. Thomas,
âïž The Vegan Vicar đ±
As always with DSD the problem is good source material to play. Why have it when there's only select titles released in that DSD format? Didn't we already go through all this with SACD?
Thanks for the review, I was about to buy this prestigious DAC, now I will probably purchase the Holo Dac or the Dave to have the best sound!
Or you could use your own judgement, plenty of excellent reviews out there for the MA3, makes you wonder...
@@user-hu4ob8vc4w Well, I want to waste at least $10,000, because below sound quality is only for beginners.
DAMN! I learned SO MUCH from this video. Huge fan of Rob Watts (what a cool name for a guy dealing in audio, anybody?) @goldensound you are my favourite reviewer, hands down!!!, for your humility and intellectual dexterity. You are brilliant and balanced. Thank you for your hard work in this hobby. You articulate everything in such a palatable way without being offensive or hubistric đ©·đđŒ Full kudos to you!
I wouldnât pay 10k for a DAC. On principal alone
Amazing review. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on some subjectivist DACs like the LTA Aero or one of the higher end ANKs like the 4.1x professional. Is this on the cards? Thanks
Cameron, Iâd be interested to see what you thought of either version of the PS Audio Directstream DAC in comparison to these other dsd DACs. Have you ever auditioned one before?
I owned the ps audio direct stream Dax for years and strangely the weak points mentioned in this great review are exactly the same. I currently have the CDSA SE from Emm labs (same company as Meitner) and it out perform the ps audio direct stream easily.
Directsteam DAC has much higher distortion from output transformers, and much higher noise floor. But you might enjoy the coloration, if at a loss of transparency and technical ability.
Let's not forget that Ed Meitner played a big part in sonys original dsd studio dacs and A/D units. They know dsd.
Finally an Yggy comparison :D
I guess they needed to warm up first...
I really like this comparison to Yggy - this is something that many in the high end review space don't dare. Even when the reviewers don't get captivated, they often go with "but if you really like XYZ in the sound, this might be a DAC for you" - but sometimes that's just a bad advice, because there are some similar sounding, cheaper, better alternatives. Let''s be real, it's really hard to have a 5-10-20k$ piece of equipment that is downright bad. But it can be overpriced. And I just wanna throw it out there - I know that the DAVE also doesn't have the greatest of PSUs and it's a great DAC and obviously there is more to the subject than I understand - but I just can't stomach switch mode anywhere near this price point.
Have you gotten a chance to compare the bricasti m3 to the holo may?
You should check out the Playback Designs MPD-8, which is an expensive DSD DAC at $26k, but supposedly beats the Holo May at 1/5th the price. For me the Holo May is end game, but itâs always interesting to see what is no cost object âbestâ.
Mpd8 is the DAC I've wanted to try most for quite some time.
Would love a music recommendations video
@GoldenSound are those the Zu DW6 behind you? How do you like them?
Which interface are you using with the mic?
Hi, I had sort of a simple technical question: how is the bits "binary number" transmitted? a) is there a "single voltage" that corresponds to a binary number (hence, there are 2^n possible voltages when n is the bit depth), or b) there is a specific voltage for one, and specific voltage for zero, and the binary number gets "built" by the combination of these individual zero or one pulses? (hence, every "n" pulses create a sample, when n is the bit depth)
Iâm getting still awed by my Denafrips..not much to look at..but itâs a damn nice performance.
I auditioned this DAC on a two channel speaker system. The streamer and DAC on PCM files and stream it was Meh! That is to say way too pricey for the quality of sound delivered. It was only with DSD files, specially Analog recordings converted into DSD that it shined. It was a no go for me.
Somebody send this dude a MPD-8
Im not sure anyone is ready for the mpd8
Mpd8 is the DAC I've wanted to try most for some time.
Nearly fell off my chair when I saw the PSU.
yes.
There are some amazing DSD DACs for far less. The Cen.grand DSDAC 1.0 Standard is x4 cheaper and sounds amazing. This just seems very overpriced for what it is.
I think I'll just stick with my spring 3 Kte. :S
I can't believe that such an expensive product dares to not have a proper linear power supply and even saves on the CPU side. I mean even they'd spend a 800⏠on a high end desktop CPUs they'd still have plenty of headroom on the monetary side. What are these companies thinking?
maybe you need better speakers (more detail, less distortion) for this kind of comparisons? or you are using a nice pair of headphones?
Maybe you should understand the small little world you thought was true, isn't so. I know you come from a generation where saying how it is was impolite and unprofessional, but we know live in the age of breaking conventions. "You get what you pay for" being one of them. It's a terrible product, its cost or badge isn't of consideration in that conclusion.
I'm using focal Sopra No3 speakers, for headphones for this vid I was using Hifiman Susvara, mod house Tungsten and Warwick Aperio
@@GoldenSound thanks for your reply
@@enjoshi-godrez8775 Have you listened so that you know (sic) it's terrible or are you just another sheep in the new world, doing what you're told?
I wonder if you are planning to review the Cyan 2 at all?
I don't have a unit atm unfortunately
@@GoldenSoundIâll message you on discord.
Tuby or not tuby? That is the question. đ€
I'm curious what you make of the EMM Labs DA2 (Stereophile) measurements looking different than what you describe as they use the same main board and algorithm. From what those plots show, and how it sounds to my ears, is a steep brickwall low-alias, high bandwidth filter that only opens up on very fast transients to eliminate pre and post ringing. That is the inverse of what you describe. My gripe has been that the filter sounds too steep most of the time, which corresponds to the "dampened" sound you describe. The high frequency softness is common to all DSD DACs.
[Edit:] From reading your measurements, looks like an error in the transient detector algorithm of the MA3 .
Comments about black background and depth though, seem relatable.
And, difference in ultrasonic noise is probably not the modulator, but filter. In this case, noise that far out doesn't matter, but in all likelihood other DSD performing DACs have an additional filter, whereas the MA3 has higher unfiltered bandwidth.
Meitner claims their power-factor-corrected SMPS is lower noise than a linear one, but I'm not really convinced.
Okk
Message received.
Over priced DSD DAC
Deflating the Meitner brand
Cheaper better brands available. Next⊠thanks for the comprehensive review.
Oh look. A DAC worth more than my savings.
What are savings?
@@mariodrv Money you don't spend on audio
Then don't buy it. Do you also complain about exotic sports cars and 10 room homes! There are plenty of low-cost DAC's for people to buy BUT not everyone is YOU and many can afford these expensive one's!
@@dontcare563 Someone can't take a joke
@@dontcare563 He's not shitting on it, we're just joking around.
"I loved dsd.... In 1995" rob watts
Yet another overpriced âboutiqueâ product
So , like a bugatti, or a Singer...or a Patek philippe ...so what's your point?
â@@barneyrubble9309 some of those you listed make products that at least represent something you don't find for less even when they are still comparatively []verpriced
@@barneyrubble9309 Bugatti's are pure performance, there's nothing "boutique" about them.
@@barneyrubble9309 if the best producers arenât using this equipment why should I? These arenât headphones or speakers and just need to do their job.
@@net_news why is "boutique" a criticism? Overpriced is a bit judgmental, how about expensive?
DSD is DOA IMHO.
Flew out to CJNYC to hear the MA3 and came back with the same impression.
Thanks ,shows that this dAC is one to avoid,high price does not equal high performance
It's big so that silly audiophiles can go "oh this feels heavy, must be worth my 10k".
and they are right 99% of the time đ
I think most people equate greater weight with higher quality, personally when I pick up something that is a lot lighter than I expected, I presume its going to be very expensive. With audio desktop or rack gear I would prefer heavier devices so that they don't move around when a stiff cable is attached.
Exactly - it's pure marketing for the gear dweebs.
@@mrfrosty3 well in audio weight is directly related to power transformers that are crucial in amplifiers... so in most cases heavy, good and pricey are definetely corralated.
I like heavy. My tube integrated weighs a delicious 63 lbs .
Inside is ridiculous, the boards are so small why use that stupid big case? Is that 10k price tag includes some air in that chassis?
I absolutely agree with this. What's even more insulting is the switching power supply!
@@dontcare563 Space gives separation reduced interference/noise, SPS are superior in a number of ways. Doesn't it depend on performance rather than requiring a transformer? Simplistic views
@@user-hu4ob8vc4w and yet there is no evidence of that in actual testing. There are tiny devices with huge transformers that don't have these issues. We like transformer bases devices because they have been objectively shown to last longer from real world testing. Not definitively, but better than speculation like you have committed to in saying there are reasons for it being this design. These are ultimately speculation because you can't prove it.
@@enjoshi-godrez8775 So actual performance isn't relevant? If SMPS sounds better, go with LMPS anyway
@user-hu4ob8vc4w no, they will perform identically if they measure identically. Both technologies can achieve identical measurements, but its transformer based designs that have longer life spans that have actually been proven.
Lack of a linear power supply is bad given the price
So medicore dac with high price tag. Just like 90% of "highend" stuff.
I don't know what to think of GoldenSound, but probably the same as of other reviewers with profound knowledge on one hand, but the usual voodoo blabber on the other.
Important note: GoldenSound shall successfully ABX all their tested DACs in a controlled public blind test and I take everything back. It won't happen as it never does because virtually all that stuff either exceeds the human hearing capabilities or way exceeds them.
While it's totally legit to criticise technical flaws which could have been easily avoided especially given that insane price point, I greatly assume even those (minor) flaws are below the threshold where things wouldn't be still masked anyway and become distinguishable. Like "4dB of attenuation at 20kHz? Yeah, congratulations if your ears even at that probably still relatively young age aren't already down a lot more.". Not that those 4dB wouldn't come in addition to the listeners own sensitivity loss of course, but still ... it won't have any real practical relevance.
When it comes to the usual bloomy sound descriptions which are only known too well from the high gloss audiophile magazines, we're back to square one - how serious can all those tests really meant to be?
Amir from "Audio Science Review" goes in the right direction by admitting that most differences and flaws are purely technical but still inaudible even with products only achieving mediocre performance on his SINAD or whatever comparison charts. However, even he isn't free of temptations and thus drops the ball when he ends up focusing on details beyond the hearing capabilities of humans, diligently sorting and ranking, but then not caring whether a DAC has support for de-emphasis (which any coming with a S/PDIF input should have, as it's part of the CD standard and also used back DAT and even LaserDiscs potentially), a difference which in contrast to all the other fuss is clearly audible.
Psychologically, it's very interesting that a product like this one gets criticised in the first place. Cynically, one could assume that the audience for that product
a) doesn't care about technical details due to the lack of understanding anyway
b) won't be able to tell any audible difference and
c) is willing to spend a serious amount of money which it graciously can here
So one is left wondering what the actual problem is with that kind of DAC.
One reason for such reviews could be what I'd call "calibration". Take an extremely overpriced product once in a while, criticise it to have an alibi that one doesn't praise everything no matter what and then continue to do praise cheaper, but essentially still way too expensive and over-engineered products. This way, you have set a nice new anchor where buyers can rest assured that they might be a little eccentric wanting "the best" but hell no, not completely nuts to buy the even flawed "10 grand" DAC.
This marketing system has really been brought to perfection.
It uses a filter array that quite literally attenuates the audible treble region. You will objectively hear the difference between this and a DAC using a different filter array. So long as you can hear past 18K. It's isn't up to discussion. The measurements prove it. How you decribe that in terms of music playback is a matter of subjective preference as all psychoacoustics are. "Well well, that isnt...". I dont care about your excuses. You are wrong to suggest there is no audible difference. End of discussion.
@@Sturgon thanks for the reply which however actually misses the point which I was making. Also stylistically, it's always lovely to get some statements slammed around and have a discussion declared to be ended despite never having started in the first place.
Anyway, about the technical details and an at least halfway scientific approach: I didn't claim that audible differences can't exist per se but indeed dared to introduce the premise that this product's audience most probably will not be able to discern it, and also included the indirect invitation for Mr. GoldenSound to use his GoldenEars to blindtest all those bloomy described DACs and succeed.
I wish not to be misunderstood: It's the very principle that one systematically cannot prove the non-existence of something, here: any audible differences. However, for that bery reason, it's always the other side which has to prove the existence if desired so.
Of course, differences in the frequency response within the audible range for humans are very well considered to be in the field of expected discerniblity, however so would have led any equalizer to a similar effect then, independent of the pure DAC attributes.
What huge of a difference changes in the level above 18kHz in the frequency response will make for most (!) people, they are mostly welcome to test for themselves.
At the end one can always construct scenarios where one might be able to tell differences under extreme conditions, levels, etc. while grinding their teeth - virtually nothing justifies the bloomy descriptions, price tags and general audio voodoo nonsense which is going on and that was my critic. Sadly, all that mambojumbo has quite a lot supporters - obviously.
$10.5k & no IÂČS đ€Ąđ©
It's not a real standard and was never designed to be used externally outside the circuit board!
â@@dontcare563 it's $10k. Go home!
@@enjoshi-godrez8775 only 10k?
That is not worth ÂŁ10K. Shocking. No LPSU?!
LPSUs are so last year...
@@user-hu4ob8vc4w Perhaps to the uneducated.
You can make and perfectly filter a smps for less than you can make a similar quality lpsu. All smps being shit is a decade out of date, they're just not popular because the press was down on them for so long.
All the top measuring dacs and amps have smps these days, and pretty much every audio component uses switching regs somewhere.
10 grand for empty space.
That power supply looks cheap, at this price point a toroidal transformer would be a given. The power supply looks suspiciously like the units that come with inexpensive 3D printers.
Would you put an LPS in even if a SMPS sounded better? You think they did that to save money? SMPSs outperform LPSUs on a number of fronts
10k DAC omg such a bullshit
If it's ÂŁ10k and its got weaknesses it's crap. 1 star.
That would still be a 4 star what hifi review.
@@enjoshi-godrez8775 probably. Haven't read that magazine hears
what if it sounds great?
@user-hu4ob8vc4w placebo always plays a role, so it better we put our faith in what we know.
@@user-hu4ob8vc4w It's a DAC. Has a basic job to do that products costing ÂŁ100 or so can do. If it cant do it properly it's not worth it.
10K$ ? Bye đ
A casual observation. $10,000 for what is in the box is laughable. đ€·đ»ââïž
The power supply is an embarrassment. It's also poor design to use an oversized box for the contents of this product.
I stopped right there.
You know that SMPSs outperform LPSUs in some areas right? That top end manufacturers use them? Meitner are skimping to make extra profits on an item in a niche market on low volume? Doesn't quite add up does it? There may be reasons for the box, it may even be aesthetics. This is just like a school yard, crowd behaviour, lets all join in before thinking, let's not be inquisitive or curious, just put the boot in, like a mob. Nice
@@user-hu4ob8vc4wPlease enjoy your overpriced toy.
w/o watching this video and being a DSD fanboy. The answer is NO! DSD sound different than PCM and arguably worse than PCM in terms of specs
Not in my experience!
@@dontcare563 what do you mean?? Iâm curious about your experience
â@joesmith4443 so why exactly do you use DSD?
@@enjoshi-godrez8775 I like the sound of it
@@joesmith4443 oh I didn't read your comment properly.
It's hilarious and ironic the guy who's 15min was a take down of MQA is now selling you on $10,000 DACs or terrible speakers like Zus lol
I'm guessing you didn't bother to watch the video, as the conclusion is that I DON'T recommend it. And I haven't even reviewed the Zu speakers
For $10,000, no thanks.
Save up
The obvious goal of this review is to dissuade potential buyers from choosing Meitner under the guise of balance. It is not about honesty; I believe you are. However, the relentless focus on the negative unfairly skews viewer perceptions. You may be unaware of the problem with your presentation, but it is what has led to conflicts with the manufacturer.
There's no conflict with Meitner, they replied with class and offered him a trip to the company and ongoing devices for review.
@@BestKiteboardingOfficial I find it annoying when Cameron keeps emphasizing the negative. It is great that emmlab is showing their class. Cameron, please show more class in your review.
I had this at home for a week, was not impressed at all, and definitely not worth $10k
Not worth it for you but maybe for others. Was it run in? Did you want to like it?
Yet another wanna be reviewer.
You can't even spell your insults correctly. Illiteracy on all sides.
Ah no⊠he is already consulting, so prob more advanced than you dear.