Do Cables Matter? Testing! Differences Detected!
Vložit
- čas přidán 29. 05. 2024
- A/B testing of flimsy, cheap cable and a $20 cable connecting CD player and preamp. I listen for the differences and look at the differences after loading the recordings into Audacity. I select a few small samples, less than one second long, and compare the power vs. frequency spectra.
- Věda a technologie
Just when the Cable Wars had begun to subside, you come along and stir it up again....😂... really enjoy the channel 👍
Good video. I noticed you’re closing in on 5000 subscribers.
I really enjoy your conversations that you have working things out verbally from within your own mind, and with the audience.
Yeah, growing that viewership, thanks in no small part to folks like you who've been along since near the beginning! Thanks!
Cables do the following:
1. Deliver the signal intact, unaltered.
2. Somehow distort the signal
3. Roll off/limit the signal.
Cables do not:
Amplify
Yes, there is no question, cables sound different, depending on what they do of the above 3 things.
Cables can attenuate. Especially older oxidized cables, and cables with hair fine wire and/or cheap aluminum wire. This leads to unnecessary amplification. The less amplification, the better. Even if it is just a couple of Db less. Which can happen if your signal path runs through multiple cheap or old RCA cables.
A pair of Amazon Basics or Kabel Direkt will already do better than the shoestrings and are much more manageable.
I already heard a difference on my tablet speakers, with headphones it was clear, not as muffled and much better space and staging.
Connectors are more important , When allowed 40 years of Technology into my Audiophile brain.
In small signals weak connection can wreak havoc having worked on enough cables to make it to the Moon and back bad connections are the Enemy .
I use Lab grade power and good connectors even my sub-$500 systems produce detailed life like Soundstage with depth
The easiest way to listen to cable is replace on one channel only with mono signal. Then listen for differences. If there is no difference the image will lock in the middle. If is different it will gain some width.
Acquiring the Taste? Long live the Giant!!
I liked the short samples because I could remember better what the last one sounded like. I didn't hear a difference in my headphones but I do believe in cables
Listening to Free Hand is a mind-bending experience.
When I look at the differences in the graphs that you presented extremely well I recall doing the same sort of thing with a curve when I enable DSP after doing acoustical measurements on my AV processor. When I compare the graph the new DSP curve is smoother and when I enable DSP there is a dramatic improvement in tonality and I'm wondering if just changing the curve created this change and sound or other DSP things that are going on in the background. I do hate the fact that DSP is difficult to work with because you have to re-download curves every time you make a manual change to the curve. So it's very hard to change things on the fly. I miss Tone controls but when I enable treble and bass settings it impacts the sound quality so I don't use it.
There appeared to be some differences while listening to some, but not all of the clips, with the newer cables sounding a little more clear in some passages. The measurements shown at the end of the video certainly showed some variation between the cables. But I think the value in the newer cables is primarily in their better shielding and build quality/durability. I really couldn't tell a difference in most of the clips.
If only others who do ab testing could learn from how you do things?
Thanks, for the vid - interesting results!
Even among those types of mainstream bulk interconnect cable like Canare, Mogami, Belden, the types which are commonly used for microphone cables in PA systems or to connect components in studios, there are differing types of wire with unique geometries. Consequently, you could easily buy cables from the same brand, which look the same and which cost roughly same amount, but get a different result. Brand X might sell one cable which is twisted pair, another which is star quad.
A lot of "high end" cable brands are just playing conductor type ( copper, silver, silver plated copper, alloys, or even graphine). The amount and type of shielding varies, as does the geometry (twisted pair, star quad, coaxial, braided), and of course, the type of dielectric used to insulate the conductor.
Generally, you won't find the PTFE (Teflon) insulation in a budget cable. More often, it's PVC or Polyethylene. Sometimes it's a solid insulation extruded over the conductor, other times it will be a "foamed" dielectric (air is the ideal insulator). Occasionally, you'll even find cables which use a cotton yarn, kind of like an old tube amp with point to point wiring.
I recall the first time I inserted a pair of audiophile interconnects between a Harman Kardon PM665 integrated and an HK CD player. The effect wasn't subtle to my ear, but it was the soundstage which changed the most, rather than the tonal balance. Was that due to the use of Teflon as a dielectric, the designer's decision to use a 3-wire copper braid in lieu of a metal shield, or something else? No idea, but I liked the result, and used those for decades. There wasn't a financial incentive to chose them - the manufacturer simply gave me a pair to try out and keep in the hopes I'd recommend them to the hifi store I worked at.
I've heard expensive interconnects which made me want to shut the system off entirely. Interconnects which added an odd treble sheen. Maybe that's an indication of HF noise pickup being modulated into the audio band, or perhaps something else. Maybe it was just a mismatch with my gear. No idea.
In one case, my non-audiophile partner listened to her favorite test track (Josh Ritter's The Curse) and after 3 minutes she asked me to revert whatever change I had made. She literally said it was hurting her ears. Sadly, that's a brand which is not only expensive, but is hocked in many hifi salons. I wonder if the tonal balance caters to older audiophiles with significant high frequency loss, or perhaps speakers which are dull in the midrange and lower treble.
I appreciated this video and this kind of video. I've been watching more videos about cables after buying a a/b amp and speakers switching device and noticing quite a bit of quality loss and volume loss. Not sure how much of that is using an rca y splitter or if it was using some rather long speaker wire or both. Anyway, thanks!
I thought this was a great comparison, I always am looking for thicker,pure copper and hold connections. And CLEAN inputs.
I heard differences mainly in the vocal parts, couldn't hear any in the instrumental parts. I have seen some cable testing Videos, and cables containing silver are pushing the highs, what can be a good or a bad thing, depending on the response of the Tweeters.
Heavy pure pure copper cables f.e. professional stage cables could be the smart choice, and you get them for less then 10 bucks per Meter.
Capacitance and shielding. That’s all that matters. Cables are passive. Any perceived difference is due to one of the above.
If going DIY, just use select bare cables from Canare, Mogami, and Belden..
Please also digitize from the phono out instead or in addition to the speakers sound. It would cut out unnecessary colors in the chain. Thank you.
I didn't think you were the subjective listener type. lol. Bias on my part. The first time I heard a difference was 35 years ago... oh my. I came to an audio associate then and listened to his home made cables. Before I listened I thought he might be off his rocker. After I listened I was off my rocker. Lmao.
Any way, wait until you paint your CD edge with green paint... get 2 CDs so you can compare... I know... I'm still off my rocker.
Yes, you can find better quality connection with a 20 $ cable, avoid corrosion, it's not only esthetical
You do not need special cables, unless you want to stretch cables around your castle!
I'm first. Lol. I'm good buying worlds best cables on my modestly priced system and calling it a day. Interesting video. I think your analysis was right. Thanks.
FWIW, the system he showed the clip of is mine.
I use a range of interconnects, including WBC XLRs with Mogami 2549 and silver Neutrik plugs. They’re very decent and are only $35 for a meter pair.
I also have XLR/RCA interconnect cables from Wireworld, Kimber and Cardas, and phono DIN cables from Blue Jeans, Cardas and Tellurium Q.
@@ChrisMag100Nice system. Glad to see WBC represented. So, you also use cable risers? Do they make a difference. Apparently Danny from GR research uses tinker toys as cable risers. What I really need is some cable management since my office is also my listening space. Got some cable vomit issues going on, lol, so cable risers on the cheap might be in the cards eventually.
@@danisold
The magnesium risers you see in the video were sent to the publisher of a hifi magazine I contribute to. They're made by company in Germany. We (the editor and I) were both exceedingly skeptical. Over dinner, he handed them to me and asked me to try them out. I had the same reaction most people do. "Really?" /eyeroll.
I had used foam blocks with a v-shaped cradle cut into them in the past, but they hadn't been in my system for more than 6 months - I removed them during a remodel and forgot to put them back in. I don't recall ever listening for a difference with those. If there was an impact, it was very subtle, to the point of being a perceptually unreliable tweak. Mainly, they're helpful for keeping speaker cables and power cables a few inches apart, which isn't a bad idea, and it helps to avoid trapping dust bunnies around the wires.
When I brought the metal ones home, I did some listening and then put them in, sat back down and had the immediate impression of more "space" in the soundstage. My response was, "No, that's got to be my imagination". A few days later, I got a text from the editor asking for my opinion. I replied that I thought there might be an impact, but I wasn't ready to tell him what I thought I heard. The next day, I put on an Andrew Bird track I know well, "Underlands" from his album "Inside Problems". I got midway through it and then pulled them out, music still playing and not knowing what to expect, if anything. The overall sense of stage depth was reduced. Not night and day, but noticeable. I still had a strong sense of cognitive dissonance though.
I remembered the other ones I had boxed up. I went and grabbed the foam risers out of another room and put them in. Same effect, but less. Okay... maybe I'm really hearing a change. The next day, the editor and I compared our notes. Our description of the effect, and our shared discomfort were the same. The publication in question doesn't review tweaks, and they give minimal space to things like cables despite that the readership tends toward the $50k-150k system range.
Take that for what you will. I don't recommend spending a bunch of money to lift your speaker cables off the floor (unless you have a huge hifi budget). I think the tinker toy idea is a good one, or maybe one of those online sellers who 3D print them for a nominal fee would be a good alternative. Example: www.lirecordcare.com/product-page/upgraded-cable-elevator
I wouldn't use Styrofoam - too easy to build up a static charge. The foam ones I have are supposedly made from a foam type which isn't prone to static charges. Unfortunately, they're no longer made. You could try it with some ceramic or glass cups, but ideally, a small contact cross section would seem to make sense.
Hopefully Stephen, you won't mind me sharing this post. If you do, text me and I'll remove it.
www.tonepublications.com/distilled/voodoo-for-you/
Finally, if you want to consider why an electric field in a speaker cable could be impacted by proximity to other objects (cables), this is a worthwhile video (not audio related). czcams.com/video/oI_X2cMHNe0/video.html
Did you try listening to the same tracks with the new cable first followed by the old cable and if so, did you still think the new cable sounded better ?
You should do some home made bass traps and accoustc panels and make some videos
Funny you mentioned that,
Bean Bag chairs aren't filled with beans now (or before?). They are filled with memory foam chunks. Their nicely covered with micro-fiber fabric, lot's of colors & 2 or 3 different sizes.
As Bass traps, I'll stack three 2-footers in the rear corners. They'll be dual usage at least, look much better I think, much easier to re-purpose and cost quite a bit less. I'm gonna give them a shot.
The big A online retailer also has canvas stretched over wood frame wall art. Lot's of nice prints to choose from. Putting a 1 inch or so foam backer should fit well & look decent. I'm gonna' try that too.
Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊
You Tube can't work for this.
Please superimpose the 2 graphs with different colors for easier reference. Thank you.
great job! it would be interesting to switch a pair of 1000 dollar cables in there too, settle this audiofoolery theory once and for all
But we have to define "reasonable quality."
I got some Primeda 2ft long cables. I like them because there flexible. I don't hear any difference wich is a good thing.
How often does wonder woman come out and play with you?
🤣🤣🤣 She's stays under plastic. Gotta stay safe.
I think it just sounded a bit louder
Likely the only difference between the old cable and the new cable, is the new cable has slightly less parallel capacitance.
Thats depends on the wire. Maby more try than imagine will help you🎉
Dang! I should've measured capacitance before I put in the new cable! But I didn't expect a measurable difference.
Not a subscriber to the Cult of The Magic Cable. Cables of reasonable quality are indistinguishable in double-blind tests.
Of course not... so said the infidel-ity 😅
@@toanduong I prefer
Enlightened Heretic 👹
The Art of Electronics next to your amp and CD player. Btw not all your viewers are that old.
The blue binder next to my records is the 2nd edition, handed out in class as they were working on the revisions while taking the class from Horowitz. I have the first edition in my work office.
And true, only 90% of my viewers are 45+.
Now that people like you and some others are showing graphs which prove there are differences between cables, most of the "snake oil accusation" crowd have become not so vocal, & seem to have crawled under the woodwork with their proverbial tail between their legs. Knowing nothing about the hundred or whatever steps are involved in manufacturing cables, they were all so sure that there isn't any difference because no measurements proved anything to the contrary. That was because no one bothered to prove anything to the contrary, not because there wasn't anything The prices however on some cables are outrageous; and I would never pay it. Audiophile cables are great to buy used, and I don't think I ever spent much over $350 for a used cable. I have had cables in my system whose retail price is around $1,000, and I once had a lengthy home audition of a top of the line MIT cable, whose retail price was $5,000. Their current top of the line speaker cables are $100,000.
I don't know if what you did was anything groundbreaking; it was more like comparing Palmer chocolate with Queen Anne chocolate; if you know what I mean. But people who go from trying many cables in the well over $2,000 range, will tell you that some cables can make a 50%, to a near doubling your sound quality 80% improvement. I heard at least a 50% improvement in sound quality with the older Spectral MH770 Ultralinear II speaker cables, especially made for Spectral by MIT. The guy who started Monster Cable, Bruce Brisson, went on to form his own cable company MIT.
Some of these cable doubters who do the equivelent of comparing cheap chocolate, by comparing cables too low in price to offer anything high tech; make the inference that there is no difference. They should not be taken seriously as their methods and what they compare are not to be taken seriously. I once removed my great cables and put in some cheap ones, and my whole soundstage collapsed. I no longer had vocals in the middle which sounded like they are on the ceiling. Nearly that for instruments in the extreme left and right channels. For some reason they don't usually achieve ceiling height like that, but not far from it. Great cables can make cheaper cables sound like a confused, congested, grainy mess. My better cables are much purer sounding than run of the mill cables. Measurement comparing distortion of different cables would be an interesting one to see. Tinkerers like me know that if you tinker around long enough, certain things will improve your sound. Too many things can be tinkered with, with cables, for there to be no improvement.
😂
The better sounding cables are pricey; but something tells me that their prices are based on the judged level of sound quality by the maker, and not so much based on what they cost to make. If anyone is an expert out there who follows and has tried high end cables recently; are the cables from 20 to 25 years ago lacking, compared to some of the more current offerings? Because those are the cables I got. Ones that got great reviews around 20 to 30 years ago. I bought them used within the last 18 to 20 years for usually around 33% to 50% of their retail price when new.
The one thing that can make me dislike a cable is if they sound dry, whitish with bleached tonal colors. That's all encompassing even if it does everything else right The very first upgradeable, replaceable AC cable meant to improve the sound which started the whole trend in the early 1980s, was the late Sal Dimecco's (spelling?), Discrete Technology AC cable. Also known as Distech.The cable had much superior bass weight, transients, and detail, but it was bleached sounding. The tonal colors were compromised and didn't draw you in. I couldn't enjoy it well. Krell amplifiers for a few years back then, used this cable internally, and that probably explained the highly analytical dry sound of some of their models. They did change off it. I would say 33% to near 50% of the 4 dozen or so cables I tried, suffered from this, but few as badly as the Distech. Most of the cables I tried were fairly expensive. Some of the cheaper cables sometimes had a really good performance area. Like I remember a cheap gray sheathed Monster Cable interconnect which was incredibly open sounding, but the timbre was only ok. Despite having some good performance areas sometimes, none of the cheap cables seemed to be able to put it all together. I had to go up the price scale to find that.
Cables from the 1990s also had a house sound. They may still for all I know. Purist Audio cables were on the rich warm side and had fantastic 3D depth. Kimber silver cables had great purity of tone and sounded very smooth in the high end, where some other cables would sound really harsh in an A/B comparison. Tributaries Series 9 interconnect, still has the most extended high end I have ever heard. Great with vintage tube amps Even more extended than their future top of the line cable; which I liked better for purity and tone colors. My favorite cables, like my favorite speaker drivers are from Scandanavia. Such good stuff from out that way!
Old timer’s… not quite,
I didn't hear any difference.
Simply cannot believe that ANYONE claiming to know anything about audio using those original cables... I understand that in 1981 you might not have had much of a choice... but after all these years they should have been in the TRASH. I do have quite an investment in cables appropriate to my system cost... and that should be the measure of cost. Every system deserves better than those cheap thin cables.
no difference,snakeoil..
You claim to be a scientist and a professor, yet you seem not so open minded and open to others opinions, and possibilities like true scientists, even opinions based on decades of experience and experiments. I have built what may be one of the worlds best audio systems. My system does things that many experts say is not possible. I hear details on well known often played recordings through my speakers, that experts swear is non-existent, until one day they take the recording to someplace that has $10,000 headphones, and then they tell me, "you were right " "I hear that at 4:57 on track 2 etc. May I ask where you teach and what are you a professor of? When Craigslist had a personals section, you would be surprised at how many people claimed to be former astronauts.
Why you mad? Seriously, what are you talking about?
Lol, you mean "differences perceived".
Detecting differences might require some actual measuring equipment and a lot less bull 💩
Different power spectra measured = difference detected, regardless of my perception. What am I missing?
@Lancaster_Hi-Fi
Oh sorry dude, just skimmed the vid and saw the listening tests, my bad.
Any idea why there was a difference? Just general corrosion perhaps, or maybe typical variance between cables?
Most of the time I see this sort of thing to justify some absurd $10k cable purchase, so I hope you can excuse my skepticism 😄
No worries! I was skeptical before I did the test. Resistance, capacitance, inductance: kind of has to one or more of those. I didn't think to use the LCR meter before the test. I still could, but getting those new cables off would be a pain. I suppose that part of the reason I didn't do any measurements is because I didn't expect a measurable difference. D'oh!