Sailboat Keel Repair/Problem: SOMETHING IS MISSING FROM OUR KEEL !! (Patrick Childress Sailing #42)
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- čas přidán 12. 09. 2024
- We find a serious Keel Problem + we need to Repair this sailboat: Something is actually missing from our keel! Fiberglass keel repairs are underway!
Error: Foam in a can is NOT open cell foam as stated in the video. Polyester resin will eat up Polystyrene foam.
Patrick Childress, after 12 years on his second circumnavigation explains what does when he finds out we are missing the proper amount of structural foam in our keel... When sitting on the hard, this problem can cause a sailboat keel to oil can, or even crack, when its blocked in the unsound section of the keel. Patrick then shows the process for the keel repair. Sailboat Keel repair can be done diy, it just takes some sailboat diy knowledge, time and effort and the right tools.
We have been sailing around the world for 12 years on our sailboat Brick House, a Valiant 40. We are hauled out of the water , and it’s time to fix and upgrade a few things on this 41 year old boat!
We received a lot of valuable technical support from AMT Composites, and will be using a number of products they recommended, imported from all over the world, namely Gurit Fiberglass Resin which is very comparable to West Systems. They seem to have all the supplies we need for this fiberglass keel repair, as well as for our blister repair, epoxy barrier coat, and right down to the paintbrushes! They supply the materials for many of the major boatbuilders in South Africa, and are highly respected among the professionals here. www.amtcomposi...
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At the risk of sounding like a Troll. THERE IS VERY LITTLE STRENGTH in poured poly resin. Next time your boat is out of the water , cut a hole big enough to work through. Using an air lance cut out all the rubbish foam inside and chip out the resin that will come away easily; leave the rest. Mix resin with chopped strand glass and a suitable filler and trowel into the base of cavity and level,repair hole and you should be good to go.I would have thought it possible to enter the void through the cabin sole with the use of an angle grinder. If so should be possible to improve matters without cutting any more holes in keel. might be worth having a custom stainless water tank built and glass it into the void left by removing foam in same way they glass in ballast blocks at the factory. It could be filled with water in heavy weather to assist boats stability. re trim using fore cavity. Good luck and good sailing.
David, Thank you for your comment. We always appreciate constructive comments. Maybe you will have more to say after reading my reply. The keel faring and skeg on this Valiant 40 were made independently from the hull, in molds, then bolted onto the hull of this boat. There is no access into the keel faring or skeg from inside of the boat. The bilge is very shallow. The keel faring on this era, 1976, are known to be weak, so blocking too far aft causes unusual stress on the faring, i.e. oil-canning and possibly cracking of the rear faring skin. I don’t believe this is what the designer intended. In my mind, this is not the mark of a “blue water” sailboat.
After all these decades, I wanted to find out what went wrong at the factory to cause this weakness. I found voids in the foam of the keel faring. As the designer of this boat stated, “There should be no voids in the foam.” This foam is very durable and does not easily yield. I have experience with this foam from working on the skeg of this boat. If I wanted to remove any foam, I would have to cut it out with a power saw or chisel and hammer it. It is not simple “filler”; I see this very dense, strong, foam as structural to help vertical loads. Fill the voids in the foam with something equal or stronger than the dense foam, and there would be a good chance, vertical strength would be gained. Without rambling on, I had little choice but to use unthickened polyester resin. One important thing I failed to show or mention was the slipping of many fiberglass disks into the largest void as filler/riprap. These disks are what I cut from the blisters with a hole saw. After washing and drying them, about 100 of them became filler in the lowest part of the void before pouring in the resin.
I don’t work with polyester resin often but from what experience I have had, I would not see a block of this resin to be as fragile as glass crystal, as some would suggest. I have taken a 1.5 pound hammer to a small block of set up polyester and it sustained some very heavy, repetitive, blows before finally breaking. And then, there were not the sharp cutting edges, as some have suggested there would be. I could stand on the broken pieces barefoot, no problem. A new magic trick? For the purpose intended, in a confined space, surrounded by fiberglass and a very solid foam, it seems to me to be an adequate filler to transmit pressures. Am I wrong on this? One other example I have found to demonstrate the strength of a small block of polyester; 12 years ago, in Colombia , I had some guys cut out a section of the fore deck behind the windlass and in front of the inner-fore-stay chain plate. We dug out the wet balsa coring and I wanted them to fill the area with a build up of cloth and resin. I was there for the first two layers of cloth to go in. I left for 5 minutes and returned to find they simply dumped resin into the rest of the void. There must have been a language burp. Recently, I took the windlass out and ground the fiberglass to expose this area. That block of resin is still there, intact, not cracked at all. This is a high stress/vibration area. It did not shatter like glass nor has it cut anything. I will leave it in place and epoxy/layup over it, with the other fiber glassing I am doing in the area.
In any case, I feel better knowing there is less of a chance of seawater getting up to and effecting the keel bolts. Additionally, now we know why there has been such an oil-canning problem for some Valiant 40 owners, and possibly owners of other boats with weak keel faring problems.
For durability, when bumping down onto, or side swiping a rock, I have been adding layers of bi-axial fiberglass to the bottom of the keel. To do this, I removed the most rear support, of 3, leaving the mid and forward keel support. Soon I will reinstall the rear support and remove the middle support to continue the work forward on the bottom of the keel. I am trying to figure out some sort of jig to measure the width of the keel to accurately, when the weight of the boat is taken up at the rear of the keel faring, to determine if the filling of the voids has improved things, or done nothing at all. I will certainly let everyone know.
Any other pointers you or anyone else have would be welcome.
@@SailingBrickHouse-RVLife Brilliant salvage and repair operation Patrick.
Always sand between coats of resin, if you don't you will have a weak bonding.
@@SailingBrickHouse-RVLife This is why I seriously considered building my own boat back in the 70's. My fear was that with an average 10,000 man hour build time for a good boat I am such an Obsessive compulsive perfectionist I would just now be getting it in the water... I helped a guy back in the 70's build a 40" Trimaran in Anchorage Alaska he was a medic on the Anchorage Fire Dept before I became a fire fighter. It took him 5 years and he did a beautiful job. He quit the dept. and motored south to Seattle to have a mast and rigging installed. By the time he got there he realized he hated sailing (he had never sailed a day in his life) sold the boat and worked on boats in Seattle for years, his building skills were excellent.
@@SailingBrickHouse-RVLife My grain of salt, yes again ,today being Sunday I decided to do nothing .if watching great videos can be called doing nothing when you are
actually learning from the best.
I do not know how you measured the width of the keel ,personally I would try these (untested) method :
MORE SIMPLE : One plumb line from your chosen spot on the keel to the ground on a stick square to the boat axis under the keel, mark the line and the stick, go to the other side repeat with line marked length against the keel over the stick ,mark the stick again, then measure, et voila.
.
MORE TECHNICAL Set up two level laser beans parallel to the keel axis one on each side of the keel at a given convenient whole (1m,2 m,4 ft) spacing at the height you want your reading and measure the space horizontally from the laser to the keel on each side( slide a strait stick under the keel square to the axis as cross side reference) then do the simple math.. Lots of readings? :set up a gig for the lasers with 4 vertical supports down from the sides of the boat and a moved cross beam aft and forth.
Another awesome video from the master - Rest in peace Patrick....
Yes
Oh man. That rubber on the bottom of the keel would have saved us last week. We just hit a rock hard. It'd be interesting to see what would happen if this rubber would shear away (ideally) and absorb some of the impact.
Yeah we are thinking the same thing...but if it just comes loose...can you imagine the pain involved? But if it stays adhered for decades that would be nice. So you will have to haul out for repairs? You guys are in the Philippines if I remember correctly, so at least there are some haul out facilities! Rebecca
Same here when anchored in a very difficult situation in the Solomon Islands, the wind unexpectedly shifted, swinging, to make the aft end of our keel hit some coral. A bit of rubber on the bottom and sides would have made a big difference. Hopefully, someone will come up with a good system to adhere rubber to fiberglass. While hauled out, I think I will do some experimenting with 5200, epoxy and what ever anyone else suggests.
I hate wind shifts. You aren’t the first boat to bite the keel with a wind shift. We weren’t either. And neither of us will be the last...hope Naha will come right. -Rebecca
LOL...Damn there be a lot of armchair sailor/repairmen/know it alls out there full of advice on how to repair a boat...while they are sippin a brewski watchin you tube forgetting that this guy has sailed around the world 1.5x and your still sitting in Alabama wishing......Good job and great vids Patrick. Keep em comin. :)
really instructive video Patrick...thanks. Every owner will one day have to deal with blisters, resin or osmotic, and particularly filling in holes - your demo of 12x the thickness will be a surprise to many!
Looking forward to your next.....thanks, Andrew
Thanks Andrew...I’m answering back just because Patrick is out filling one of those holes right now...Thanks for watching...you are among the first :) - Rebecca
Thanks for teaching me something new about keels.
****MAJOR TIP FROM THIS VIDEO***
Always test a small amount of resin for set up hardness and pot life
Great job PATRICK
Yes…
On a repair I can access from both sides I find 12:1 sufficient, but do 20:1 or more for single sided repairs. It allows me to get a nice taper down to the full thickness, and a very strong repair. Good thing you found the hollow spots in the keel before it became a more serious problem. I've never done a pour like that with resin before, and wonder why you didn't add any filler. Wouldn't it have made it much stronger, and only marginally harder to pour? Either way it would still be stronger than the manufacturer's foam filled void, or in your case air filled.
I had no idea how narrow the voids would be inside of the keel and needed the resin to easily flow to all areas. Yes, anything more solid than the air space is better and stronger than before!
@@SailingBrickHouse-RVLife - I figured you had a good reason for your plan of attack. 😁
The conveyor belt keel protector is EPIC. Makes so much sense and it looks like it would do a wonderful job of protecting the keel if running aground.
Some catamarans have stainless steel rails on the bottom of their keels for beaching purposes.
Just keeps getting better and better, Patrick.
Thank you Doug. I really wasn't sure if this subject would be of much interest to others. I hope it turns out to be so. Thanks for watching.
My Ericson 27 has the same keel with the back hollowed out. That is the bilge. Wasn't happy so I added six inches of 16# foam so I could reach the bottom. Then I installed three layers of carbon fiber. Now I feel a little more secure!! Thanks for all the great videos
On our boat, the keel faring and skeg are bolt on affairs so the bilge is very shallow. I was working on a friends boat where the keel and skeg were part of the hull mold causing deep canyons as you describe. I dropped a flashlight into his bilge and there was no way to get it out; far out of arms reach. I am with you on filling the voids for practical reasons.
I was wondering how you were going to fix those voids. Brilliant! (as always)
Thanks Marcel!-Rebecca
I encapsulates my keel with Nytex and epoxy. The surveyor was concerned about the bolt-on keel, but after seeing the encapsulation, suggested that the bolts were no longer needed. I used 3 layers of 34 ounce cloth; an entire hull over the existing hull. Nice work!
What is Nytex? On our skeg, I did similar to what you did, and so heavily fibeglassed it to a large surrounding area of the hull, the skeg bolts are not needed. It is far stronger than what the factory did. If you look at our skeg, especially in the Blister Repair video, you will see it is a very different color than the rest of the hull.
@@SailingBrickHouse-RVLife Knitex is a knitted fabric: numerous layers sewn together on alternating bias'. Usually s-glass, available by different manufacturers. Quick way to add strength. I applied it over epoxy filler, for overhead laminating.
@@patrickhackett3878 Sounds like good stuff. Thanks!
That's another very interesting video Patrick, as all of your's are. I'm looking for a double ended boat myself right now. I'm going to make sure whatever I get is surveyed meticulously. Always a thumbs up from me sir. 👍
DevonBuccaneer Thanks Devon...Patrick is out working on holes RIGHT NOW...he will see your comment later on -Rebecca
Devon, be cautious with a double ender, where the stern is as pointy as the bow. They have a terrible "hobby horse" and can be quite challenging to live on in a bumpy anchorage. Our canoe stern is far better but still, in just the right wave train, when hard on the wind, there is a slight hobby horse which slows us down. A more fuller stern is more stable and a faster sailor.
When is say double ender thats just what some of us call a canoe stern in England. I'm thinking of a Saltram Saga, Esprit 37, Westsail, Hans Christian, Pacific Seacraft, Baba or Southern Cross. Preferably with a full keep.
*keel flipping auto correct thinks it know better than me lol.
DevonBuccaneer Yes...From Bob Perry directly:
“Then why did I make the Valiant 40 a “double ender”? Marketing! It was just assumed that offshore cruising boats had to be double enders and rather than buck that trend I decided to go with it and at the same time add my own twist to the shape to try and improve the performance of the double ender”
....so first came “double Enders” ...then Bob Perry tweaked them and made them a bit different for a variety of reasons... and that is what Patrick means...go for the “upgraded” version of a double ender...the canoe stern...- Rebecca
wow.. Those are some tough repairs. Good luck with getting solid and sea worthy. Thanks for sharing the insights.
Thanks for watching. Have you seen the blister repair videos...that work on the hill only began in this video..it gets uglier and tougher ;) -Rebecca
putting an offer on a valiant 32 soon, your channel is a great resource thanks
There is also the Yahoo, Valiant Sailboat Owners Group. Lots of knowledgeable Valiant owners there.
OMG how horrifying to do a strip and repaint on the anti-fouling to have to go into a major hull and keel refit, repair, and improvement program. Patrick, like how you handle this challenge in stride and tackle the job and get it done. It is what it is and now it is going to be better .... I like your attitude and get it done spirit. Not sure if there were a lot of colorful metaphors utter off camera but I can tell you sir that I would not be holding back. Well done and Fair Winds Patrick and Rebecca.
Patrick is surely an amazing man! Nothing phases him...he just puts one foot in front of the other and keeps plugging away. I look at it and cry. -Rebecca
@@SailingBrickHouse-RVLife A good man often has a great woman beside him! Fair Winds Rebecca
Thanks David...nice of you to say ;)-Rebecca
I have used Gurit epoxy on my boat, and have no complaints. I also have measuring pumps just as west system for mine, so very easy to use. Gurit SP 106 is my go to epoxy.
went with the Gurit and it is working out very well. It is good to know others use it as well. For some reason, they don't sell the pumps here so we are ordering the 5:1 pumps from the U.S..
We found the very same void in the aft portion of our Kings Legend 41 keel. We cut back 6 inches of the trailing edge and packed the void with glass and epoxy and reshaped the edge using a fairing board. Great video.
That would be a good way to go. I know of another Valiant 40 where the owner cut out large sections of fiberglass on the port and starboard side near the aft end of the fairing to expose missing foam. That was a big job to fill the voids then rebuild everything.
@@SailingBrickHouse-RVLife Explorative probing revealed the fiberglass in the void hadn't been wetted out properly and in fact was a series of folds only partially wetted out so cutting it open allowed me to get to that problem as well. The disparity between the designer and the boatbuilder often offers a measure of head scratching. That conveyor belt option is interesting tho.
@@svflyingspirit4507 Good information. Thanks.
Great job dealing with these issues outside the normal supply chain.
These "exotic ports" can be a real headache to complete repairs. It is so easy in the U.S. or Australia to run down the street to a "Home Depot" or marine store for whatever you need.
Always a pleasure to watch your insightful videos
Thanks for watching Fabio. I really thought a vid about a keel problem would be a sleeper. What a surprise run it is having. I hope all is wall on board Amandla!
Learned somethings today.
Thank you.
Thanks Dutch Globetrotter...thanks for watching and commenting!
Wow, memories came flooding back to me while watching your video!!..
I built a sailboat in transvaal back in the early 70's out of (open cell foam) and fiberglass etc (foam sandwich construction) it was a bilge keel design and the twin keels never worked as we almost lost the boat on a trial voyage off Hangklip in False Bay in around 1982 some years later..long story short I removed the twin keels and created a cutaway forefoot keel which I fabricated out of foam and fiberglass and ingots of lead for ballast. basically what you have there on your keel with a void aft of the ballast with foam.
During sea trials after I converted, I was horrified and depressed to note that my boat was still very tender and it was owing to the fact that I was getting a lot of negative buoyancy , as my good friend Roy MacBride pointed out on this trial sail, as did my friend Paul Tomes, both very competent sailors and builders. My only option to salvage my boat and my world cruise dream was to haul out again and remove a large square of fiberglass from the keel side and literally dig out the offending foam, until I had hollowed out the space !! (Yes, the joke about the yard at that stage was that Reid was giving his boat a Caesarian.!).anyway, after that I reglassed the big square hole closed but left a hole about six to eight inches open and into this I poured wet concrete, I kid you not... and after it was levelled off at the top of this hole I it let be for a month or so to cure (concrete cures pretty much after 30 days), but continues to harden for a very long time, seventy to eighty years comes to mind.
Well I sealed off this hole finally and put a new coat of antifoul on my Deja vu, and took her out on another trial sail. WELL!!! If this wasn't a stable, solid, stiff boat in a hard breeze in False Bay!! She was a different boat!! She pointed very well upwind, had lost a lot of her tenderness, and the rudder was very well balanced and a joy to sail!! This may as well be a preview to the beginning of the book I wrote some twenty years later after sailing virtually all the way around the world. I never have had a moments trouble from her keel or the concrete ever, and she is still going strong some forty years after I set off on my cruise. The book describes the terrible voyage where we had the major showdown with the bilge keels.... I had to abandon her a few miles off Hangklip during a fierce winter storm over night after the National Sea Rescue Institute tried towing us to safety but was not able to do so...the book is called Days of Deja vu (jonathan reid) if anyone's interested in reading all about it and the cruise thereafter...:) I was so pleased to see that you poured the voids full of a solid, even if the resin did not set off 100% I am pretty sure it eventually will harden, and you have no doubt seen the improvements to her performance! I wonder if you and some of the other boat owners there in the yard are planning a world cruise? If so, the best of luck to you all and may God go with you! I currently live on the Hawaiian island of Kauai, have done for a long time lol, but do miss my days sailing around the cape area and the Vaal dam where my boat was first launched...Be safe, and tight sheets..:)
Jonathan Reid This is Rebecca. It sounds like an interesting book! Thanks for watching this video and commenting...definitely watch some more of our videos before this one...Yes...we are slowly circumnavigating...out for 12 years now. Love Kuaui...May end up there someday...we will be heading to Uruguay, and then south to Patagonia and back up he other side...so the Hawaiian island certainly possible. See you there!
@@SailingBrickHouse-RVLife Thank you, and I see you are already slowly circumnavigating... sorry I didn't figure that out, but that's wonderful and I wish you the best and bon voyage :)
Another informative video Patrick. I'm busy refitting and outfitting the macgregor 26s. I got a ton of after work and weekend hours on it. Lord willing, I will be exploring the maine coats in 2 weeks . .
Isn't it amazing how much work is required for a 26 footer? I want to hear about your adventures.
Great point on dealing with West Systems, good stuff, but expensive! I hope Brickhouse's bottom got sorted out....
Daniel Oliver...with Patrick at the helm, I have a huge degree of confidence that she will be whole again ;) -Rebecca
you're a clever bugger Patrick, great idea with the keel
Thanks Sailing Kiwi. It hurt to watch him put all those holes in the boat...but in the end, the boat will be better for it! Thanks for watching...we appreciate your support! -Rebecca
Awesome video mate 👍 really really interesting!
Thanks for watching our sailboat keel problem video ;)
In the US I've had good success with Raka epoxy. Thanks for the great video!
Just like Gurit, I have not heard of Raka. I used the Gurit yesterday and it is performing as I would hope a proper epoxy would work. In the June 2012 issue, Practical Sailor did a comparison of epoxies. Raka was one of the 4 tested. It did very well.
South african know/ how in plastic repairing at small sailing boats. Excellent.
Thank you
Still very fine and informative videos.
Thanks so much! -Rebecca
Doing this in South Africa must make this a lot harder for sourcing quality materials. I have read of people flying back to the world to buy what they needed and returning to their boats with it depending where they were at. Sometimes it was the only way to guarantee that you would actually get it. Good luck with your project.
You are exactly right. There is a 56% import duty. Rebecca came back from the U.S. with large suitcases stuffed with repair parts.
That keel void wasn't so bad. For those interested in this issue, I'd recommend watching (Sail Life - digging deep - the adventures of the of the bilge)
Gurit resins (SP106 slow) are the good stuff .. at least if the ambient temperature is above 15°C. I have used about 10kg of it, and have had no issues with it not curing properly.
Thanks for your suggestion, I just watched Mads dig the mucky foam from his bilge. I watch a lot of his videos.
At least you’re hauled out in Richards Bay South Africa
My beautiful old hometown!
Cheers 🍻
Hello...yes...there are definitely positively worse places for haul outs! Probably my most favorite yet. Nice weather even in the dead of winter...extremely nice people...near all the parks and gorgeous animals, and clean fun facility, and people who want to work hard...Could not ask for more!- Rebecca
Thank you for using products made in Malaysia, the Kossan Glue and Pensonic hair dryer...
Malaysia is a gem of a country. If we ever had to stop sailing and live in a house, it would most likely be Malaysia. I much prefer Miri, on Borneo, but Rebecca prefers the larger city of Kota Kanabalu. Even Penang, on the mainland would do...lots of good choices. And, of course, Malaysia manufactures good glue and hair driers!.
Thanks for watching everyone..Patrick is out working right this moment, on more of what you see in this video. He appreciates coming in to comments, questions and any ideas you have...
Please start your Amazon shopping in our description below, and sign up for the 2 free sailing courses in the description too...we appreciate your support, likes, sharing this video with your friends, and of course the tips you leave in our tip jar ;) Thanks again for the tips...you know who you are! (Names at end of video) - Rebecca
Patrick Childress Sailing your an abundance of info enjoy the precision of your videos
Some type of injector to fill the keel would have me feeling more confident about the repair. That’s just the OCD in me, I am in no way near the expertise that you possess. Thank you for your videos and along with all the hard work it takes to create them.
At one time I would have left well enough alone, but working next to our yard worker in Colombia, Flavite Enrique Bernate Moreno, yes he has 3 last names, I learned how to rip out our side decks to remove the water saturated balsa then put it all back together again. Right now I just cut a big square hole under the windlass and removed that wet balsa. Today, I have to start the rebuild before the rain comes this evening. Like they say about flying an airplane, "It is easy, once you know how!"
Gostei muito do vídeo pois foi muito esclarecedor sobre os cuidados com a quilha do barco. Parabéns.
Gracias...I think. What language do you speak...looks like Spanish maybe? Thank you for watching - Rebecca
@@SailingBrickHouse-RVLife I think its Portuguese,,,,, but it says something like :
I really enjoyed the video because it was very enlightening about caring for the keel of the boat. Congratulations
Anders Jakobsen Thanks so much for the translation...it doesn’t let me copy and paste for some reason.. amazing how people watch all over the world!!!
@@SailingBrickHouse-RVLife Olá, sou de Olinda - Pernambuco- Brasil e o idioma é português;
@@SailingBrickHouse-RVLife Yes, Since I`am from Norway, I tend to be farthest away. But I love Portugal, and spend some time there.Hope to go with my own bot next autumn and spend some more time...But it's always nice to see where people are from.
OMG - that!... is a lot of amazing info! - great video!!!!! will follow religiously!
Very informative. No nonsense
Very interesting. So was the blister fixes!
Jeep Talk, we are happy you enjoyed the video. Thanks for watching.
Connect with Schindler Za they have surely leftover "handrail" for escalator . This is used alot in the waddensea for running aground.
Sailing Channel Marinus Foreign words to me...but I just sent them an email...it’s an elevator/escalator company! Great idea! ? But do you know how they attach them in the waddensea? How long do they adhere? -Rebecca
I have found that some epoxy types seem to require excitation (by stiring) partA and partB separately before combining them for final mix.
Have you ever seen that in the instructions? I have now tried the Gurit and it seems to be a very high quality resin. The pot life is not long though so one has to work fast and not mix up too much, even with the "slow" hardener.
@@SailingBrickHouse-RVLife No sir, I never seen that in the instructions, but got the tip at an epoxy makers store a few years back after taking it back for a refund. He whipped each part separately, then combined them with perfect success. I went back and finished my project. I always do this now except when using the west system. In fact, I didn't believe it would make any difference when he told/showed me. It made all the difference.
Had a similar weakness on my old Rival 31 sailed her for 20 years before when doing re-fairing work following remedial osmosis treatment I discovered the very aft tip of the keel bottom was hollow and extremely vulnerable should one ground on that point. I did a similar repair but also stuffing in mat and resin.
Good info
I bought all my expanding structural 2 part foam to rebuild both my rudder blades on my Leopard from AMT Patrick. They supply great products. Pricy but good
I just did some layup, yesterday, on the skeg and on the bottom of the keel with the P106 resin from AMT. Looking at it this morning, amazing good stuff, like I would expect a resin to be. I quickly learned, mixing 300 gm at one time, means I can't dawdle laying up small areas....sets right up in the bucket, and that is with the slow hardener!
Its worth noting that the hole repair method is different for cored panels. There you epoxy a plug of core thickness into the hole and only do a 12 to 1 fibreglass lamination (measured on the basis of the skin thickness on either side of the core) on both sides of the plug. There is a method to do so for areas where you have no access from the inside of the boat.
Thanks, Tom.
I've been using Gurit for a few months now and it's brilliant. Applies well and sands well. As far as I know it's a Swiss product manufactured in the UK.
I checked into Gurit and it appears they have distributors all over the world. I had never heard of it before. I have been using it and it does what I would want a high end epoxy to do. My only snag is that even using the slow hardener, I have to work quickly as there really is only a 15-20 minute working time. So I am learning how to use it. Today we did two layups on the keel to hull join and yesterday did two layups on the skeg. I did pretty well guessing on the amount to mix for the square area to wet out. Unlike yesterday where the brush suddenly hardened into the slightly smoking bucket.
@@SailingBrickHouse-RVLife Yes, I was going to mention the fast setting time.
The Gurit agent suggested I put the epoxy and catalyst in the fridge overnight and that should give a few extra minutes but I've learned to just use smaller amounts.
🙏 Rest In Peace 🙏
Thank you
Miss you Captain.
Thanks for saying…I miss him too…
depending on water conditions calm/rough sailors can trim or add weight (water) to the keel
And here I wanted to keep the water out! Don't want water to migrate up to the keel boats and into the bilge.
Keep at it Patrick it can only improve her.
Robin, after 7 months, we are nearly ready to launch. Just finished with the Coppercoat, antifouling, today. Tomorrow I start the engine and make sure there are not problems, then Thursday we launch. Brick House is back together and stronger than when it rolled out of the factory. I will feel much better about this boat as we cross the Atlantic to Uruguay and around the south end of S. America. Thanks for your comment.
Technically all factory premixed canned pressurized foams have to be closed cell foam so you're likely to be wrong about those canned foams being open cell foam. However, it's unlikely that any foam you put in there will bond well against the fibreglass.
The issue with a protective material along the outside of the keep is ensuring it has similar temperature expansion characteristics with the fibreglass or is bonded to allow for different expansion properties.
John, You are right. Thanks for pointing that out. I should have said that polyester resin eats up polystyrene foam. If I can get time tonight, I will see if I can delete my wording in the video. Once a video is up, it is extremely difficult to make any changes but deletions…I will give it a try.
“Closed-cell foam provides a vapor barrier, a harder finish and higher R-value. Canned foam like GREAT STUFF™ is a closed-cell foam that comes in "single-component" form. The closed-cell foam that contractors use on large-scale spray foam jobs is also known as "two-component" foam or polyurethane foam.”
Super information on keels!
Thanks...Patrick will appreciate that! -Rebecca
Like always, great video!
Gurit manufacture a range of resins called Ampreg. I used Ampreg 26 for years and it was fantastic.
Used it on hull of a Wally super yacht. I think it has been superseded by Ampreg 36 now.
It’s available in a range of hardeners- Fast, standard, slow, extra slow.
Ian, good information. I have been using the resins supplied by AMT, here in S. Africa. Their designation is SP106, which, I would not be surprised, is their Gurit, repackaged designation, for the Ampreg 26. Of course, West Systems has their general resin designated at 105 and I am told the SP106 is comparable to the West 105. I have been using the "slow" hardener but still it sets up faster than I would like, especially when mixing more than 200mg, or 6 pumps from my new metering pumps I ordered from the U.S.. I will have to see if AMT has the "extra slow" hardener. Thanks for your comment and information.
No problem. Check the Gurit web site out and compare the mechanical properties out on the data sheets see if they are the same.
The Carter range of boats made by Olympik in Greece have hollow rear sections behind their lead keels. This section is there to adjust helm and help downwind stability. The walls are fibreglassed 10mm ply, (total around 15mm per side) which stands up quite well to immersion but has near zero structural strength, on the other hand it is easily replaced when damaged. The owner is supposed to advise the boatyard where not to place keel support during haulout, if the owner is aware. YGWYPF
Took me a while to figure out YGWYPF...but so true! The builder of the Valiant 40 meant the aft of the keel to not be encapsulated lead, but didn’t want any hollows ;) Are the Carters race boats or cruising boats? At least the hollow is in the back. It seems like the boat in this video with the hollow in the front, is asking for a disaster since if that part is completely hollow, it is really more like part of the hull and could sink the boat unless it is watertight from the rest of the boat :) Rebecca
@@SailingBrickHouse-RVLife The Carter yachts were designed by Carter who had zero naval design education, for IOR offshore racing, low budget production and suited to cruising fitout and med charter ~45 years ago. The hollow section was put there to make the boat slightly less squirrelly for cruisers, whether it worked or required more hollow forward of the original keel to balance is debatable.
I added a rubber “bumper” on my keel as I grew tired of repairing the leading edge. I used stainless steel screws, and 5200 on the threads, in the holes and between the bumper and the fiberglass. I no longer own the boat and have wondered about the intelligence of the screw penetrations. It was a trailer boat so I guess I wasn’t worried about water infiltration.
It would be interesting to know if water ever got past those screws. I was thinking, after the 5200 was well set, the screws could be backed out and thickened epoxy injected into enlarged holes to seal the penetrations. Next time. thanks for your comment.
The boat, a Hake Seaward 24 footer with a shallow draft keel with wings simply could/would not make headway to weather once the wind exceeded ten knots. I tried every trick with the sails the manufacturer suggested but with no success. Now this model has a center board. Ha!
@@erichaskell if you ever need to do something similar again you can make solid plugs in the epoxy where the screws are going to go. This way the screws aren't causing aplace for water to get in. It's the same concept as when you back fill holes in a cored deck. One thing that I do different is that I'll add scraps of fiberglass to the holes in order to give the screws something to help bite into besides resin.
not all sail boats are designed to stand on there keel, the hull is designed to be supported by the water it displaces.
Yes, of course. You can see a number of sailboats hauled out in yards resting only on the leading, solid part, of the keel. That is fine if the owner and yard are very aware of this. "Bums On a Boat" have a video where the yard rested their boat on a trailer, putting too much pressure on the fairing, which caused it to buckle terribly. Nearly anything can sail around the world but if I am going to cross oceans on a "Blue Water" sailboat, and thread through the shoal water of the Bahamas and coral atolls of the Pacific, I want a keel that can stand on its own where a grounding might happen. I don't want a bad situation to turn even worse because of an underbuilt keel faring. Thanks for your comment. Your comments are always welcome.
Yea those Valiants are notorious for blisters, but only for certain years, like around 1975 on... I wouldn't be counting on blocking the boat on the back of the keel. Resin alone doesn't have a whole lotta strength with out FG -it's just plastic after all- but I agree it is better to have the void filled. Too bad you couldn't get any two part closed cell foam to pour in there .BTW, I HATE grinding FG...My 2 cents
All suited up and in the cool weather of Richards Bay, I don't mind the fiberglass grinding too much on my own boat. I couldn't imagine doing it as a regular job! All the other tropical climates we have passed through, it was always too hot to think about doing work like this, and being all wrapped up in safety gear.
A rubber band at the bottom of the keel is ok. But it's the first time I've heard of a hollow front so as to add some weight to it. A chain could do the job. In extreme weather conditions bringing all weight (chain, anchors, and what not…) to the center of the boat is essential. But then again if there is not access to the hollow part at the front keel you may as well consider it a crash box which supplement the rubber band. In fact it does a different job : preventing the keel to shear from the hull in case the boat crashes on a rock at full speed : it's been seen more than once. 5 TO 6 knots on a 7 tons boat (or more) can be considered full speed : I saw a 700 kilos cast iron ballast broken and 3 stringers broken after such an accident that occurred in the conditions I described above…
My remark goes contrary to comment made in this video : a solid front will not dampen the effect of the crash, on the contrary. To me this is counter productive.
As for DEFLECTION I just don't understand what you mean : ALL materials MUST have deflection, otherwise they shear. It's like saying a jumbo jet wing shouldn't deflect !!!… They deflect a lot, fortunately !!!… Many ideas on YT show deflections on super tanker, plane wings, etc… As for filling the inside of the hollow part of the keel I don't know. Myself I wouldn't mind knowing that I would never allow a crane to lift my boat with straps around the keel : this is not where the boat should be lifted from. Nor would I worry about beaching : as long as the structure of the keel is not affected the boat can rest on it.
Just my remarks about the issue.
Enjoy sailing ! …
All great observations. There are, almost always, at least 3 ways of doing it right. I certainly agree getting the anchor chain out of the bow and nearer the center of the boat. If we ever bought another boat, that is one thing I would look for. I don't know why designers keep all that weight in the bow. The hollow bow of the new boat shown, is for getting it in proper trim after launch. It does seem that would be a great place to store anchor chain. But, as you point out, having the cushion of a hollow bow could be a good thing.....if it were made of steel which I believe would be less likely to breach as fiberglass would. But if the anchor chain was stored there.....maybe that would eliminate much of the cushion. It isn't just the bow though, we have seen boats on the rocks which went up sideways. It was the bottom and sides of the keel that got the heavy scrapes and thus my interest in having a strong one. I am no expert in anything in life, so anytime you think I err in these videos, please let me know. It is always good to hear from knowledgeable mariners.
@@SailingBrickHouse-RVLife I agree with Vincent. These hollow parts are there to act like a cushion. Otherwise if you hit something with your keel, all the force coming from the crash will concentrate to the point where the keel is joined to the hull, so it can break.
But an other important point is that keels are not there just to provide weight, but to counteract the sideways force of the wind when it hits your sails. At speed the keel's vertical area acts in the opposite direction to the wind on your sails. These two vectors cancel each other out, and the remaining vector will be your speed. Without this vertical area, your boat would roll more, also the boat would go more sideways.
So there is every chance that the hollow part of your keel was intentional. The designer put there enough weight, and then added more vertical area, using fiberglass for the reasons above.
Those valliants by uniflight had a big problem beyond the simple blisters, the blisters happen even above the waterline because of the resin they switched to during the vinylester resin shortage in the mid 70's and their contracts they had with the military where they had to use fire retardant resins (don't know why they used it on non-military). They added a fire retardant chemical to polyester resin and it rejected the chemical over 84 degrees Fahrenheit. The best way to repair it permanently is to peel the gelcoat and use radiant heaters along the hull to heat the laminate and keep it at least 200 degrees Fahrenheit for 24 hrs. You will have a black goo leaking out of the laminate. Then glass over with a 6oz fiberglass cloth and vinylester or epoxy... Good luck
Some want to blame the blister problem of this era of Valiant 40s on "fire retardant resin" which then seems to indicate all fire retardant resins are bad. Is it correct that the U.S. Coast Guard requires passenger carrying vessels, for hire, to use fire retardant resin in their construction? If so, then it would seem Valiant bought from the wrong supplier. 18 years ago, long before I bought into this boat, it was peeled from the waterline down and glassed over. I can see in many areas they did not go deep enough with the peel. I would really like to know if they did as you suggest and heat things to 200 degrees F for 24 hrs. That seems like a very good process. Thanks for your information and any follow up info you can give us.
@@SailingBrickHouse-RVLife the best way to check if it has had the heat treatment is to grind back a small area and heat it. It is very possible that the people who peeled and glassed the hull thought this was a simple osmosis problem, but it looks like you have blisters above the water line as well. This would be the fire retardant chemical problem. I worked with the naval architect who designed for uniflight on this in Anacortes, wa.
@@joeytedder This V-40 is definitely from the blister era caused by bad resin. All owners of this boat knew and so did the people who peeled below the waterline 18 years ago. Hopefully, this grind job will last at least another 18 years.
Sink and epoxy threaded sleeve on the bottom of the keel then bolt the rubber to it with washers, just a thought.
Sounds like something to consider.
great video as always....
Thank you, Wayne.
Yes West Systems epoxy is expensive. But it works perfectly EVERY SINGLE TIME. Epoxy has a shelf life and can be also effected by light and temperature. I’ve used West Systems epoxy that was twice as old as it should have been and stored in a hot dock locker. It was used on a non critical function and it was strong, not brittle and cured normally. Try that with cheap stuff and you get a lot more work getting off the tuff taffy.
Fully agree with staying with the name brand products even when they cost more.
&Patrick Childress Sailing
You have gone through the blender on this project. All you need is more problems. Been there, done that. No fun. Red skies at night to you.
Always thought it was ballast up front and deadwood in the back.
"deadwood", that sounds like a very old term. The designer of the Valiant 40, Robert Perry, calls it a keel faring.
Iron or brass plate works too.
Thanks
My GOSH! just start the video by making your point. What is this? A childrens mystery video?
Thanks for watching…
Awesome video.
Nothing like a well made wooden yacht with solid lead keel Silca bronze keel bolts holding it on.
You never hear of a keel or rudder falling off those old boats like what happens to the new production boats. Hopefully now that we have a more solid keel faring and all the resin blisters have bee ground out and laminated fair, maybe the worst of the maintenance on this 43 year old boat will be done.....for a while.
What a job!!
yes
I know, Andy, (boatwork tody) has change to Totalboat products. They sell on Amazone, but it maby still hard to get. Some job you have done with her. I liked the rubber. But it must be hard to bend around the front of the keel. Nice ide thou.
Fair winds ,,,,/),,,,,,
That is the problem working on our boat in foreign countries, familiar products are not always available. I just used the Gurit, P106, and it is very good epoxy, like I would expect an epoxy to be. Thanks for your comment.
It would be interesting to know what kind of drag that rubber on the keel added.
It certainly is not streamlined on the front and wonder how that could be improved. There are boats all over the Bahamas and the Pacific that could have used that rubber cushion on the bottom edge and better still if it wrapped up a ways on the side of the keel.
love it ... oh .... i think i seen yalls videos before on sosailize ... you share on there ? Anyway .. good job .. keep it up :)
Yes, I had been posting there but not for a while. Now that you mention it, I should put that on my list. Thanks!
Looking forward to the one about blisters. Apparently you filled up the rear of the keel ? or close to it ?
I filled up the voids as much as I can tell. As the designer said, "There should be no voids in the foam...." so I do expect this to take care of any oilcanning when blocked on the hard and strengthen the area in case if we should ever wind up hard on a reef. Read through the response to Catherine, the comment just below yours for more details on what and why I did what I did. The resin blisters are a common problem for the mid and late 1970s Valiants. Today I found 2 more, small, blisters, but I think this is pretty much near the end of opening thing up. In a month or two, maybe the reassembly can begin. In the mean time, there have been plenty of other projects to complete.
That looks like the handrest from an escalator belt. If it is, there is a good chance it has a "C" channel in it and the bottom of the keel has a matching rail (mechanical bond) that the belt slipped over. The edges bonded with adhesive to keep water from ingressing. Interesting concept.
That is a great idea for making the attachment. No one else has suggested that a C channel and matching rail.
I may be wrong but I think you would be better off with a very hard, smooth surface on the bottom of the keel. Stainless steel would be good or maybe a very hard epoxy or other synthetic material. I believe the belt will have enough give for whatever the keel strikes to sink in and grip causing the boat to slow down very suddenly and increase the impact load. You will likely be much better with a material that will slide and divert the impact energy causing the boat to rise up and slide over the obstacle. A swipe always does much less damage than a direct impact whether you are talking about boats, cars or even athletes. The belt would only really be useful to set the boat down on a hard surface during haul out.
Отличная работа. Киль должен быть мощным. Эпоксидная смола, отвердитель , стекловолокно, свинец. При ударе он должен выдержать несколько тонн веса.
Я добавил много стекловолокна вдоль нижней части киля и на стыке киля с корпусом. Теперь сильнее, чем когда-либо. Мы едем в Огненную Землю на южной оконечности Южной Америки, поэтому лодка должна быть в хорошем состоянии. Спасибо за просмотр нашего видео.
YA dobavil mnogo steklovolokna vdol' nizhney chasti kilya i na styke kilya s korpusom. Teper' sil'neye, chem kogda-libo. My yedem v Ognennuyu Zemlyu na yuzhnoy okonechnosti Yuzhnoy Ameriki, poetomu lodka dolzhna byt' v khoroshem sostoyanii. Spasibo za prosmotr nashego video
Patrick
Always enjoy your video's and your tips... although I am not sure of your work on your keel... there is no real internal strength to just liquid reason... that keel of yours would give me lots of concern and sleepless nights,, for me I would replace the keel with a solid one . I have seen many of boats that had failure from poor construction and it happens at a time when you are working the boat and need it.. get the boat to South Africa Cape Town and remove and replace it, Yes it is expensive but what is your life worth. It does make me love my Pac Seacraft even more ...they never compromise on there hull integrity and have never seen one blister..
Robert
North Star
TR, yes, in boat yards you see it and from advise of others, many boats should not be supported on any portion of the keel faring. I don't think one could consider such a boat a "Blue Water" sailboat. But if an owner knows about the situation, that is his discretion to live with it or fix it. Many live with it. At this point, 12 years into our voyage, I have chosen to address it, just like the resin blisters. The "oil canning" on our faring was never that bad but I felt it should not be there at all. It is my feeling, with the voids filled, the foam will help carry the loads to a greater area of the hull. If someone does not think so, that does not matter. I am confident that our boat faring is far, far, stronger than it has ever been. The blisters on this era of mid 1970s Valiant are well known and what makes the boat affordable for many owners. Other makes of boats have had similar problems. I have been anticipating for the past 5 years to get to Richards Bay and do all this work. These repairs will serve Rebecca and me well and I certainly hope new owners, some time in the far distant future. Look at the comment reply I gave to Catherine Secula, just above your comment for more insight into why I approached the repair as I did. Thanks for your comment, and we will certainly meet up, one day, in CapeTown.
Patrick ,
Thank you so very much for your reply . I do understand where you are coming from with your chosen fix , although for me the keel would come off and a new solid keel put on to replace it , but I also understand the expense of doing such a job as that... a very big undertaking . And yes many boats of that era had blister problems and was a long and expensive repair job . Consisting of a haul out , stripping grinding all blisters and then putting the boat inside and drying the hull out , and a lot of moister testing prior to striping a 1/4" off the bottom to repair and fair in a new bottom with vinyl-ester resins so they would not blister again... and if that process was not done correctly ... a Nightmare , just like a bad house guest , they keep coming back... lol
Robert
North Star
Miss your videos Sir
Yes I miss them too -Rebecca
West System may be 'Expensive' but guess what, it works ! You have likely spent more time f'ing around, and cleaning up from using lowest bidder stuff, than you could have saved by using the right stuff.
"do not spoil the ship for a ha'porth of tar"
Go down the row of comments, about 6 down, to John Edwards and learn something about epoxy. West System is not available here in S. Africa.....so if you were in a location where West is not available, what would you use?
Full apologies Patrick. Indeed, I was not aware of your location or with the difficulty of getting a suitable equivalent.
BTW, I would be happy to ship you some.
@@ferhomme96 Thanks for the nice offer but like a lot of things, the shipping is far most costly than the product, especially to S. Africa. We want to install a small heating stove in the main saloon since we will be heading for the very south of S. America. Just the shipping of the stove to Richards Bay, S. Africa, would run about $1,200. Rebecca just flew back to the U.S. and will be looking in the second hand stores for a very large, hard, suitcase to carry it back in. There is no easier place to do boat work than in the U.S. where so many of the boat parts are available and cost a fraction compared to other places in the world.
Pearson 424, the aft end of the keel almost has enough space to install a phone booth in it!
There is no keel access in a Valiant 40. Do you know the wall thickness of the P-42 keel? That would be very interesting to compare to the 3/8" of my V-40
We added 1" thick iroko to the bottom of my cat's keel it was stuck on with Sikaflex and is still holding strong, even though it has been beached many times, I launched the boat in 2000.
It does seem a wood like iroko would stick better than a rubber conveyor belt. Good idea. Sikaflex is a brand. What form of Sikaflex did you use?
Hi Patrick, as it was 19 years ago I am not sure but looking at the data sheets I would use Sikaflex 292. There were no mechanical fastenings, I made sure the fibreglass was cleaned down with acetone and after shaping the Iroko and doing a trial fit I applied the Sikaflex to both surfaces. It was then chocked and wedged in position whilst it cured. It will have a tendency to slide so I wrapped some blocks in packing tape and clamped them either side of the keel to keep the wood in position. The excess Sika was scraped off and wiped clean whilst wet, acetone or meths will remove it. The packing tape meant the blocks did not stick. Cheers Roger
One could attach a strip of steel to the keel as long as the plate is stepped and glass built up around it. Which is most likely what that rubber strip is. Think about this the rubber driving boot on an airplanes wing shouldn't stay there either that rubber "boot" is most likely surrounded by strips of metal fashioned like the wing boot with screws and bolts every few inches then epoxy and fiberglass encasing it to the edges keeping water away from from the "attachment plates" with the screws and bolts.
You are developing some interesting attachment possibilities here. Thanks.
That can't be good having water flowing out of your hull when you drill a small hole into it. How do you find the spots that need to be drilled? Moisture meter or is there a blister?
It is a very visible bubble that goes a layer or two deep. Some blisters go deeper.
If you placed structural material between the two sides of the keel (like a fiberglass rod) this would have added MUCH more structural integrity. I'm not sure your repair will really make a difference when you support the keel from the aft.
A rod, like an earth quake bolt, is an interesting idea. Like the designer of the boat said, there should be no voids in the foam. Any deformation/oil canning, occurred when blocked in the area of the largest void. As the designer of this boat says, "There should be no voids."
@@SailingBrickHouse-RVLife At the very least, even if no bolt is used. Adding some finely (and not too much) fiberglass in the polyester resin would have added strength. Trying to adhere something to foam is futile, the foam will always delaminate.
Gurit is a reliable brand. I have been buying carbon fibre from them for nearly 20 years.
Yes…good product for sure
Hi Patrick, I hate grinding fiberglass! But you were well dressed for it. By the way, I still have the good Hobie sunglasses you sold me.
If we ever went to live again in the U.S., Montana would certainly be a consideration. I lived in Colorado for years, but it is too crowded now. You have a great life style. Sunglasses.....hmmm could those be Glacier Glasses? If so, that is going waaaay back to St. Thomas.
@@SailingBrickHouse-RVLife , I could be mistaken, but it seems to me that you came to my boat repair facility on Lake Union back in the eighties and were selling some great sunglasses. Am I mistaken? That's a possibility for sure! Montana isn't very crowded. I think the winter cold keeps people out.
You have a very good memory. I most likely did have some left over Style Eyes, Glacier Glasses I had been selling in St. Thomas. I left there in 1985 and moved to Alki Beach for a while. I don't remember, selling glasses in Seattle area but probably did. I do remember visiting a repair facility that needed someone to install a VHF radio but I did not get the job. Amazing how many seafarers, like Robin Graham and, Dan Spurr moved from the coast to live in Montana. In 1974, when I moved from Miami to Colorado, people asked if I missed the ocean. I would say no; there were so many things to do in the mountains which changed with each season. In 1978 I moved back to Miami to sail off to the big blue. It is amazing, if you are the person I talked to about a job, how the paths of sailors cross....even on the internet!
@@SailingBrickHouse-RVLife , it could have been you. If so, I probably had hired someone just previously. You're an easy guy to remember!
Patrick another Montanan here just getting into sailing what's a good beginning vessel. And place to look for said vessel
Like your videos, you have a lot of good tips. Also have seen you in the comments on my channel. Subscribed 😀👍
Thanks Tino. Subbed back.
Try french quality : Sicomin . I did work with it , it's high quality , very reliable .
i agree, i would have used a high density expanding epoxy from them
Interesting
Pretty much epoxies should all be the same. However a good epoxy producer should provide proper mixing instructions which is your real problem. Think of epoxy as like lego each resin has a determined number of points that plug into the determined number of hardener points 1 to 1 that is what determines the mix ratio that can vary somewhat but is a set number once mixed if the mix ratio is wrong then the excess points unplugged become flex points or soft points excess hardener can cause other problems too like staining and chemical smells. Now I say they should all be the same in that the components pretty much all come from the same suppliers (well a small group of them at least) the brands you see even wests all use the same suppliers as they are just compounders and marketers. I have worked in that industry for about 38 yrs as a development chemist (well maybe a bit longer than that but who's counting) now I sail allot more ":)
John, Thank you for that great information. I experimented and found that unmarked resin set up far better with a 2:1 mix. The sales people in the shop don't know what they are selling. Where in the world are the biggest epoxy component mfgrs. located? Also, that Kossan glue, any idea what they use for a thickener to turn the resin into glue? Cotton fibers?
@@SailingBrickHouse-RVLife Glues can use several things but fumed silica is most common and best but yes cotton fibre wood fibre wood flour ground minerals like limestone, mica, talc. silica are all used to a greater or lesser extent. I am retired but the main resin makers used to be Korea USA and China probably still the same the hardeners are usually USA or Europe though China is growing. Usually manufacturers try to make mix ratios whole numbers so do some tests sounds like 2;1 is good but can be 4;1 too rarely 3;1 but GP resin packs are 1;4 or 1;2 with an occasional 1;5. Remember to be careful with the hardeners they are the insidious toxic part if you become sensitised to them then it can be very debilitating particularly if you get sensitised to all amines because then your own body wastes will slowly eat you away (rare but not impossible).
@@TheBeaker59 Would there be any problem with using common baking powder as a thickener?
@@SailingBrickHouse-RVLifeI don't know really never heard of that I guess so but it would become a little porous with time in a moist environment.
Do those hull blisters happen to "all" boats or does the newer materials (fiberglass and resin) prevent them (do they come back)?
For these Valiant sailboats, there was a run from about 1976 to 1981 where they had this resin problem. Far more common, on a lot of other make boats, are the much smaller osmotic blisters, but they only appear from the water line down.
The answer is no! The way the boat is layed up is most important! Some manufacturers don't take the care and time to save money!
Some boats have fuel or watertanks in the keel.
Yes…that’s true.
There is no way in hell I would drill large holes in my keel to fill in some hollow sounding areas. The load is carried in the skin, not in the foam. There isn't that much stress on that surface to need to be reinforced. Compare it to a surfboard, which is only about 3 layers of glass which is about 1/16 inch thick, and has a 180 lb man jumping up and down on it, and it doesn't break.
Are you saying surf boards are hollow on the inside? All surfboards I am familiar with start out as foam blocks then glassed over. Without the foam, not even a light child could stand on it. And this is the point I am making about my keel fairing. As the designer of this boat says, "There should be no voids." With a mere 3/8" skin of glass, that is nowhere strong enough to support the load of the boat when hauled out of the water. I don't care what any one says, that foam adds structural support in a vertical direction. The one Valiant 40 of this era, that I know of, which most definitely has a full foam fairing, has no problem blocking anywhere on the keel, when he hauls out. This is a simple, "this works, that does not" demonstration. No theory or mathematical computation is needed. Having a fragile keel faring, is that what one would want in a "Blue Water" boat? That would not do well when bumping the bottom in the Bahamas or tapping on a reef in the Pacific. A "Blue Water" boat needs a strong keel, even the fairing part. Additionally, having no voids eliminates the possibility of water migration up to the keel bolts. Thank you for your thoughts. I am no expert on anything, just one who learns from my own mistakes. It is always good to get others perspectives.
The foam only holds the skin in place so the load can be carried by the fiberglass. Some surf boards use polystyrene, which is the material that cheap ice chests are made of, its very soft and you can push a hole in it with your finger. It works because it holds the two fiberglass sheets (top and bottom) far enough apart so the board doesn't fold. The point is a surf board has a 180 lb man bouncing up and down in the middle of a 9 foot board, and its only .0625 inches thick fiberglass, and its nowhere close to folding. Your keel is 6 times thicker, and there is no point load on it like a surf board. If you see some flex when its hauled out, there's probably nothing to worry about.
The skins on a surfboard, when flat in the water, are in compression and tension like the top and underside of a beam. The sides of the keel void without internal structural bonding/support are like the vertical web of a beam with little to no capping top and bottom to give it stiffness, they would have to be massively thick to be stiff enough for Patricks peace of mind. Totally different kettle of fish. And point load via impact, is exactly what Patrick's concerned about, yes, in the water, equalised pressure, but whack a bommie or rocks and you have a completely different situation.
Having said that, straight resin of any sort, without reinforcement, lacks strength and polyester resin, over time, as an adhesive, performs pretty poorly. I think, yes, the void is now filled, however I'm concerned that structurally, little has been achieved. I could be wrong.
The loads are in all different dimensions, as it bounces up and down and sideways through the waves. Drilling holes in the hull and squirting stuff in, is like taking a wild ass guess that you might do some good, hoping the resin might stick to something inside. If not, its just dead weight, and he'll never know if it adheres or not. That is no way to reinforce a hull. Its better to leave it alone.
I'm just wondering, do people sail to South Africa for cheap boat repairs because theres isn't the same environment care you would have in other places in the world. It's worth noting that the dust release into the environment is there for a very long time!
No i dont think anyone sails here for that reason ;) I think that everone just sail here enroute to points west. Not that many actually do the extensive boat work, like a blister repair job that we did because of that!
Visas are a big pain. Possinly rhe ones rhat do stop and get hauled out. Its because they need it, or because of the affordable labor rates -Rebecca
You could fix the crack of dawn!
Haha...good one! -Rebecca
Barnacles? Paint?
Thanks for watching…
NOT A BOATER . Would you have gained any thing by adding lead shot to the resin mix ?
The problem was not knowing anything where the cave system of voids ran or how narrow the passage ways were or how much resin it would take, or anything, other than there were voids below a certain level. Thicker resin might have plugged a passage way and not run down to the bottom of the void. All I know now, is that it took a bit over 5 gallons of resin to get things solid again. Our boat is stable enough so really does not need more weight on the bottom, but I do want that fairing part of the keel not to be a flimsy mess in case we do hit bottom or wind up on a reef. Thanks for your comment.
Why not leave a ss drain fitting near the bottom of the hollow section just in case water enters and you need to drain it before it might freeze it do other damage?
As the designer of the boat says, "There should be no voids in the foam." Now there is no way water can get in the keel and possibly migrate up to the keel bolts and rust them. No freezing water either.
Ha....freezing water? Yeah...we are gonna maybe go to Patagonia...but in the summer thank you...Please Patrick...don’t take me anywhere that there will be freezing water!-Rebecca
I think I would have sought advice from both fellow sailors and yard workers before I set forth to buy resin locally and in unmarked bottles. South Africa is a hub of catamaran building. They must buy their resins somewhere. One or two of them might answer an email query.
As somewhat stated in the video, all the yard contractors use AMT Composites for a supplier of Gurit resin. That is the direction I have gone because of their recommendation. As an aside, I tried the junk resin at a 2:1 ratio and it performed much better. Some sales people don't know what they are selling.
Also...most of the resin used in the keel was the good stuff leftover from Malaysia. Only a small amount from the local chandlery was used before we got the great advice from local sailors and yard workers to try AMT Composites.
We are so happy to be in an area where people are aware of the differences in quality of things like resins, etc. SOUTH AFRICA IS SO AWESOME! - Rebecca
I thought polyester resin could dissolve some closed cell foams? I would always test a bit first.
I watched once as polyester resin ate right through polystyrene foam. Nothing seems to bother the foam used in the keel or skeg of this boat.
@@SailingBrickHouse-RVLife I have used polyester over spray can pu foam with no problem
Man the dock owner must have seen his electric bill & said what..... 2 hair dryer or 1,500 x 2 or 3,000 constant watts. 24 hour for a full month. Wonder what that electric bill was?
I kind of wondered about that myself, but there are so many high powered grinders and air compressors going all day in these haul out facilities, my hair dryers should have blended in well to the overall bill. But now all that is done and our electric use is minimal so it all balances out. Besides, I have only once found a "cheap" haul out facility. These operators know how to make money off of us cruisers!
The compressor are 1-3 hp motor about 200-300 watts. Grinder 150 watts? A ac startup about 1,500 watts then drop to 500- 800 watts. The similar would be some cooking or baking and day and night. 3,000 watts My guess added 300- 500 base on our high price electric bill in Honolulu. Not outrageous but he probably was going what the heck call them again. LOL
But your rights beside your are paying for that use of the facility & work tools. And dry dock fee are outrageous but no choice.
8:30 Do they make a sander disc 12:1 ratio for getting holes the right ratio?
James I’m sorry…I don’t know. You may or may not know that Patrick passed from Covid a few years ago. But I’m still sailing on Brick House…