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Hornby Just Changed the Future of DCC with the HM7000
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- čas přidán 10. 01. 2023
- Hornby made a huge announcement in their 2023 range launch that could have a huge impact on the way that layouts are controlled using DCC.
Their new HM7000 system with Bluetooth decoders allows for direct control of locomotives without a base station. The decoders are also packed full of new features and look to be a real game changer.
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It can be integrated into existing
systems to control existing locos via the App. No lock into Hornby and overwritable chips via bluetooth is the game changer
is that using the HM7040 "dongle"? Where do I find if my Digitrax controller is compatible? thanks
It is nice to see Hornby catching up to other manufacturers. I am glad you mentioned that we have these features available in yhe U.S. already. Hornby likes to ignore that when they announce things.
Available in the US by Soundtraxx Blunami yes. But price for a decoder is +130$. No FREE downloadable sound library. App only for Apple smart devises. Hornby presents a complete system even compatible with decoders from others via a Legacy Dongle.
Besides for non US residents overseas transport and import taxes are more than the price of the product. The choice is obvious !
I can see an export opportunity!
@Richard Sweeney Why would Hornby need to mention what’s already available? This makes no sense at all😂
This seems a brilliant move from Hornby. It seems to provide what people are after by giving people a cost effective route into into digital whilst at the same time ensuring that you have to get it all from them.
It occurs to me that it might work for garden railways too (depending on the range). If you simply have to prove a constant 12v, this could be done with a battery.
agree, and if the loco pulled the battery in a special coach or wagon or tender the opportunities are inspiring.
Funnily enough I used Bluetooth to give remote control to a loco I built for my grandson's Brio train set. It's powered by a lipo in the tender. I'm very pleased with the result but one has to accept that the Bluetooth is not 100% reliable. One has to have some strategy in the loco code to deal with the communications loss, either stop or proceed at current speed or some such. Over the distances needed for a garden layout I think the range would be an issue.
@@ColinMill1 They address this in the website. Range can be extended by the inclusion of a "node" along the way. There will either be a stand alone module to act as a node or they say the decoders themselves can act as nodes, so a loco sitting in a siding half way down would do the job.
I'm going to give it a try in my garden, I'm hoping it isn't another Zero1.
@@GDGRailway47712 Yes, I would be reluctant to invest lots of time etc into a proprietary system just in case the company literally pulls the plug on it. Depending on the complexity of the layout I would either use a conventional RC system as many of these are open source with multiple manufacturers involved or I would use ZigBee as that has mesh networking built in. Unfortunately, I doubt I will get even a tiny way through my existing list of aeromodelling projects without adding railway to it (many years ago I was all set to model Dinting Museum in N gauge when they shut the place leaving a somewhat bitter taste to the project, though it remains boxed up in my workshop)
Hornby have said that the rage is 10 meters plus. Multiple decoders to any App/Smartphone, multiple Smartphones on a layout! So in an exhibition App is synced and secured to any number of locos.
I think that the new Hornby system is related to the 'Scalextric ARC PRO (App Race Control)' which has been around for a while and allows control of each car via Bluetooth and an App on a smartphone (or tablet). It means the technology is fairly mature and proven, indeed as Scalextric cars are going faster than locos, control should be better on a layout.
Finally LEGO trains have been using Bluetooth for a few years now!
Great to see the loco decoders, they seem like a fun and economical way to get sound if you’re just starting DCC for sure. I didn’t see the announcement but was there also any mention of accessory decoders with Bluetooth for turnout or signal control?
It's nice to know HM hammant & morgan are still in existence with Hornby :o)
I too am interested in learning more. Hornby certainly seem to have thought through the connectivity and compatibility with existing DC/DCC I think the big question will be how good the sound decoders are. If they are on par with other manufacturers then this could be a winner if they are equivalent to TTS then I think they may have a tough time. Be interesting to see if they are compatible with the Soundtraxx Blunami which does not yet have the British sound files as an option.
HM just makes me think of Hammant & Morgan (maybe that's my age; or maybe Hornby now owns that brand too?).
I remember seeing on Larry Puckett's channel, when he reviewed the Bluenami decoders available in North America, someone saying that they're already popular with Lego railway enthusiasts, as they can just connect the decoder between the batteries and the motor. And clearly there's no need for anything with an bluetooth enabled decoder to have pickups from a track at all. It opens up a whole new realm of possibilities. E.g. you could even take a bluetooth-chipped loco to a club or a friend's layout and run it there, without needing to worry addresses etc. I guess it would run perfectly well on a DC layout too.
It'll be interesting to see if other chip manufacturers join in too: a big company like Hornby (with all their related brands) is surely going to give an impetus to wider adoption.
Hi Andrew, HM is still Hammant & Morgan I believe 👍
Something I'm curious on, is how much distance range do you get with the new decoder?
And what happens when it looses signal with the controller/phone if out of range?
Blue tooth distance is about 50 meters, i suspect that the decoders have been programmed to bring the train to a stop if loss of signal occurs same as model planes. In R.C planes they usually are programmed to circle or land.....
Morning Rob, HMDCC definitely an interesting development. Downside for me seems that it would be a 'lock in' to Hornby as I suspect you'd want all locos on your layout controlled in the same way. That may or may not be an issue, will depend on the individual I suspect. Great technology though and very positive move to make DCC more accessible.
One of the most interesting aspects of the launch for me though was the acknowledgement at the start that '23 will be a catch up year - giving them the chance to deliver on promises made previously. That felt like an important bit of realism from them and was very pleased to hear it.
Hi Chris, I agree, I'd like all my locos to be controlled in the same way, but from what I've seen it doesn't have to be a total commitment to Hornby's tech and it might integrate quite well with existing systems.
I was so happy when Hornby said they were going to have a catch up year. I've got a few pre-orders that I've given up hope of ever seeing. They rarely provide status updates and they've got so much going on that sometimes it feels like some models just keep getting pushed to the back of the production line.
They did have a track-fitted bluetooth adapter that would let you control your other decoders (in a centrally controlled DCC setup) via the bluetooth. At least I think that's what it's meant to do.
@@little_britain definitely keen to learn more about it
@@LittleWicketRailway agree re I think you'll be able to mix and match. Interesting strategy from Hornby though I think overall.
What I'm worried about is random people controlling your locos while being at an exhibition with just a app
That could make for an interesting exhibition! 🤣
I don't think that is possible.
😂😭😭😭
Hi there I like the sound decoder I've been having a hard time finding the one's with the sound file that I need and I've had to fit a non sound chip .so this looks pretty good to me, just gotta see how they work and the final cost. Thanks for the heads up
You can technically run over 9000 locos with one app. Impossible practically but shows capability
Bluetooth decoders are already available from Soundtrax. The original TSUNAMI has been upgraded to BLUNAMI.
Are these available in the UK?
@@LittleWicketRailway You can 'import' them and a single Blunami will cost you + 200£ after shipping and import taxes.
@@phil36310 : they are pretty pricey here in the US without the costs you would incur.
Nicely presented Rob, but I'm still yet to be convinced about DCC per se. Even our grandson (13) into all techy stuff, is not generally impressed, having helped operate a layout or three at exhibitions. I've seen several layouts then have gone pear-shaped at exhibitions because of DCC, and a mate who did a show recently took his DCC layout but after one day changed the kit back for the second day as he was fed up 'spending all day punching buttons'. I am working on a new layout and I use H&M kit, (Neanderthal!) which cost three parts of nothing and is bomb-proof. I even get kit given to me (a box-full of point solenoids)
Horses for courses I guess. Keep the info coming though, I'm always interested to hear about it.
Curious how open the sound file format is. There could be a thriving ecosystem of fan supplied sound files.
Yes I was thinking of someone like Mouldy Raspberry who has superb sound on his videos. Not just locos but background noise like birdsong, coach doors slamming, etc which adds an extra ambience.
I'm a bit surprised you didn't mention the e-link with Railmaster software, which this seems a logical development of.
Hi Ninoinoz, maybe I should have mentioned e-link, but I've never actually used it and the exciting part for me was the development of the decoders rather than the controllers. I can't see Hornby developing computer control software, it's a bit niche. It'll all be apps for smart devices now.
Honestly, a great step forward. Using existing "generic" hardware for the "command station" (a smartphone or a tablet), is a way to make great economy. Something as basic as a Gaugemaster Prodigy Express costs GBP 175, and it exists for ages ! I had bought the American original, made by MRC, for roughly the same price corrected from inflation, in... 2006 !
Great positive point, you can digitalize your whole fleet without changing something on your analogue layout : just buy your decoders one by one for your engines, and keep using anything analogic for everything else until you can digitalize it. Zero investment outside the decoders for your engines in this scenario.
Just two things missing in this range : an 8 pin decoder of the "chips over the pins with no wires" variety and a 6 pins one. There is OO engines with 6 pin decoders (Hornby Pecketts anyone ?) that won't being able to be upgraded with this technology. Maybe next generation of decoders... By the way, all the TT 120 Hornby range is equipped with next-18 sockets, something to consider...
Ironically, it's the brand which have the justified reputation of billing extortionate prices that makes something great for people who wants a DCC system at an entry-level price...
I have spent 25 years buying Hornby Locos ready for my retirement layout, and have a range of analogue, DCC Ready, DCC fitted and Sound fitted. This sounds amazing and almost certainly I will use the HM7000, but it raises a lot of questions for me in regard to starting my layout. I have nickel silver track (Hornby). Will the wiring of the power to track need as much work done when I get round to it? What power supply will I use to run the track. I only have basic analogue control at the moment.
It sounds like it will work with an analogue controller, you have to leave the controller on full power all of the time to provide full voltage so you can't run another train on analogue at the same time. The only question doing this is how many locosyou can have on track with one controller, a basic analogue controller only puts out 1/2 an amp which is enough for one loco but will struggle with a sound fitted one. Better analogue controllers are still only 1 amp which is fine for usually double heading on analogue and maybe 2 sound locos or 3 non-sound. Beyond that you'd be best with the proper 15v power supply which will be 3 or 4 amps in total and run a fair few locos simultaneously.
I am interested in the 6 pin and the Next18 decoders as I do N scale? I am assuming that there will be a possibility to make our own sound projects and burn them onto the decoder? I have UK and American N scale model trains, so I am interested in this new BlueTooth DCC system.
I'm not sure if you can create your own sound files, but if you can then that would be amazing!
I’m looking forward to the TT 120 scale and the HM7000
As an engineer I ask what’s the problem they are trying to solve? I’ve been able to control my DCC system via my smart phone for years. With DCC via the track you can also set CVs without a programming track if you have a decent command station.Those decoders still look big
Fantastic that the Japanese train manufacturers still consider the most exciting products they make to be the actual trains.
Funny how premium tomix, cosmic, kato et al controllers actually try to replicate how real trains operate, something that appears to be ignored by every other analogue or digital control system.
Bought an hm6000. Worse mistake was thinking that example had to be a dud, and buying another one, and discovering that no, they are all that bad.
Hello - Do you know if this HM7000 will be able to record as you can with the Railmaster?
Hi Paul. I've never used RailMaster, but do you mean record a sequence of control inputs so that they can be replayed by the computer/app? I don't recall anyone saying that will be a feature, but the app hasn't officially been launched yet, so can't say for certain. Should know more this month. It's a good idea.
I was not aware the USA alreary had Bluettoth decoder chips. I have been wondering how other manufactures ( e.g. Bachmann ) would work if you put a Hornby chip in them 🙂
Product called Blunami decoder. It is more expensive than what Hornby will be offering. An issue with most Bluetooth setups is the distance from the transmitter to the receiver. In the US , regulations state, in an application like this, the signal cannot exceed a certain range, measured in feet. I’d guess other countries may have similar regulations, but I don’t know. I’d suspect the Hornby decoder would work because it is plugging into the DCC plug. All the magic happens on the decoder chip/PCB.
The new decoders seem great if you're interested in sound. However if you're not and already have a dcc system, changing to this system is quite expensive.
I'm quite happy to control my trains with 8 pin dcc decoders and probably will continue to do so.
Yep, but I'll be getting the bluetooth converter for my ELite, using the app, but still will buy cheapo non-bluetooth decorders.
Sounds good, but checking the hornby website I find my phone and tablet listed as not compatible with the app. Others may want to do the same first before getting too excited….
I will be interested to see if they are truly NMRA compliant and if they support ABC functions?
I was intrigued by the bluetooth connectivity. However, I was pleasantly surprised by the magnet NEM couplings that Hornby are producing. I know, Accurascale have announced some too. I have standard NEM couplings and they cause me derailing issues. So I am very interested in these couplings as I've heard good things about Hunt couplings.
@Aussie Pom What for magnetic couplings?
I agree this was the standout announcement from Hornby, but like you would like a bit more detail. A demonstration video would be nice too. In theory though it sounds excellent.
You asked some good questions. Another is will the system support accessories like points, lights, etc? Since there's an accessory module for the HM6000 system I'm assuming there will be something similar for HM7000.
To be honest I've wondered for a while in this wireless age why DCC incorporated extra wiring and clutter which could surely be done away with and was looking at some wireless stuff at Warley.
There are videos on CZcams
Interesting - direct control to the loco, power from the track & with 9 second stay alive potential for complexity on reversing loops etc to go away - you'd just need strategically placed unpowered track to prevent shorts rather than getting polarity right.
Thinking on - its more like a DCC killer - if the track just needs to supply AC/power - everything else is controlled wirelessly + if everything else has stay-alive power backup then power supply needs to be short resistant/restartable & ALL complexity over wiring reversing loops/points etc goes away.
Wonder whether it could be used with JMRI at any point?
You'd like to think that some of the geniuses working on JMRI would be able to get this stuff connected.
@@LittleWicketRailway Will be interesting to see if the makers of Train controller, I Train and even Rocrail get on board with this.
Am I right in thinking that you must use bluetooth to control a HM7000 loco even on an existing DCC layout? It would be nice if you could control the loco by DCC or bluetooth.
I'm pretty sure they will work as normal DCC decoders. You won't have to use the Bluetooth.
@@LittleWicketRailway As you say Rob a lot of clarifications required
I found the announcement a bit perplexing (probably an age thing) so thanks for making this much clearer. There are already people dissing this, but they are probably Hornby haters/luddites.
Hi Jane. It won't be for everyone, but it shows that Hornby still have a desire to lead the way with new technology, I think it making the hobby more appealing to the "app generation" and it's a very cheap way to get all the benefits of DCC which many people view as prohibitively expensive.
Bluetooth and an app just makes financial sense for any company doing it. No more having to design a controller ecosystem, just use a smart phone. Do I like it? Not really but I’m getting used to it. I like a handheld controller with a knob to turn. But then maybe some enterprising person can design an iPhone add on or an Arduino or raspi device.
Time will tel on this idea as there are a number of potential issues, firstly how much drain on you phone, possibly safe with a tablet having longer battery life. However I feel the biggest issue will be once you are controlling several locomotives and other devices such as signals, as the each unit will have its own Bluetooth chip, then you in to communicate with each chip you will need to hook you Bluetooth, which takes time, while you locomotive is heading to the points and another locomotive, so you are all ready switching between three devices at least, add more and this is rapidly becoming like spinning plates.
As I read it, the bluetooth decoders communicate between themselves, so you only have one connection between your phone or tablet and all of your locos. That should make it easier as you can just swipe between locos and accessories.
I hope the Bluetooth connections are reliable. I have a 6000 and the Bluetooth is troublesome to connect as it drops out a couple of seconds after the light stops flashing. I use android.
It looks like a good system as long at is it compatible with existing DCC systems. I'll get some to test. Lets hope they fit into the TT:120 or they produce some that will in the future.
Hornby TT sets with 7000 are due late summer 2023 according to the latest Hornby mag video.
It all looks great so far ! But like you say there's still a lot to be answered like how about using your normal DDC already spent out on the TTS sound will you have to have 2 separate power supplies?
I got the impression that you could still use conventional DCC, that these chips do not need a conventional DC supply?
*What follows is only my understanding of things, I could be wrong*
If you already have a DCC power supply connected then the Bluetooth decoders will be able to get the required voltage from that, so no need for another power supply.
You can control your Bluetooth locos via your phone app and your non-Bluetooth locos using your normal DCC command station (you can also control your Bluetooth locos using the normal DCC command station as they should function as normal NMRA decoders).
AND if you get the Bluetooth legacy dongle that will connect to your Hornby DCC command station then can control your regular non-Bluetooth decoders via the app too. Per the website, "It is possible for all locomotives fitted with either a Hornby HM7000 or conventional decoders to be operated using the HM|DCC Bluetooth® system via a smart device. To do this, an HM7040 Legacy Dongle must be plugged into the RJ12 socket of an existing DCC Base Station, such as can be found on the Hornby ‘Elite’ or ‘Select’.
Having connected the Legacy Dongle, ALL locomotives can be controlled either by a smart device or the Base Station, however only those fitted with an HM7000 type decoder can have their CV settings changed while remaining on the layout. All other models must have their CVs changed in the conventional way."
@@LittleWicketRailway Thank you so much for the info being a bit older takes a bit more getting around it lol regards Paul
@@LittleWicketRailway I took the opposite from it. That they won't work from an existing DCC controller, all they take from the track is the power supply. It looks to me like the first thing that happens on the decoder is a bridge rectifier, which would obliterate any DCC signal.
I have one overriding thought about Bluetooth; it rarely works continuously and reliably and almost always glitches out when I need it the most.
So, your train is proceeding happily and Bluetooth does what it does best, stops working - then what?
Bang.
Does this mean I don’t need a Nce power cab ?
A very important question is will the app work with Android phone and tablet or is it just an Apple operating system; it would be nice to have an open source app that work with all operating systems and all dcc protocols including the marklin's protocols.
I think the announcement said smartphones and tablets, no mention of iOS or Android. So, hopefully both.
The HM6000 app works on my Android Samsung Galaxy and I think it's been developed by the same team so it should work on both systems.
List of devices here d63oxfkn1m8sf.cloudfront.net/2716/7336/2071/HM.DCC_-_HM7000_Incompatible_Device_List_9-1-2023.pdf
How will this work in an environment where there’s lots of system. What about those who don’t want to use smart phones as controllers.?
This will be ok, but, a lot of us don't model British railways, myself it's Irish railways so sounds available I doubt it very much
Just saying the app isn't bad for computer hardwired to the track but if it on your phone or wireless it could be like Lionel's app where it well let's say it ain't good. If they take Lionel's Bluetooth controller tech where mix it with dcc controller. You could have a non wired Bluetooth controller with the functionality to control multiple locos with multiple functions.
Blimey! You can really rap it out!
I think a slower delivery should be your New Year Numbet One Resolution.
But I think I have understood it all, after a couple of run-throughs and log-ons to other channels and sites, and am looking forward to trying it out.
Will it all work as advertised? Probably not.
Call me a cynic if you like
I’ll call you a cynic if that’s ok. Why wouldn’t it work?
@Haymarket 47 In my experience, 'new' IT products often have bugs. To misuse the John Lewis slogan, 'Never Knowingly Undersold'
It’s about time somebody broke the fit up that has been the price of sound decoders. I think that we as railway modellers have for the past few years been getting ripped off with the cost of the hobby rising exponentially.
It is about time Hornby caught up with the rest of the world. A lot of locomotives they have are quite expensive. I have used the Hornby TTS system, it is pretty poor quality unfortunately.
I am in two minds about the bluetooth system. It does look like it may be easier to program these, but I am worried Hornby will not include a lot of features and possibly make the bluetooth side proprietary to their app, even if the DCC follows the standards. Sorry if I sound a bit skeptical. Unfortunately experience with Hornby has made me see them as more interested in money than the community.
Hornby's TTS isn't poor quality.
@@LNER985 I've used several TTS devices. The build construction and the performance is pretty poor for the price Hornby charge. I am an electronics engineer and the build quality of TTS devices I have used is severely lacking.
I've red quite a few of the comments a few asked will they work with your existing dcc unit mine being a digikeijs dr5000 , so do you have to use the hm7000 app to load the chip with the sound files and having a command station already can that then communicate with the chip as normal ,if it does then hornby will sell millions of them, if not hornby you've mist the biggest opportunity in model railway history................tony
I'm wondering if this all going to be too good to be true🤨🤨🤨
Will these decoders work on other branded locomotives such as Bachman / Dapol etc that are DCC ready? 😊
A simple answer : YES as long as these loco's are DCC ready with 6 - 8 - 18 or 21 pin.
As a standard DCC what is the reasoning to use that over standard DCC. Secondly if other manufacturers make Bluetooth chips will tbey need there own apps or interchangeable like a standard controller
I don't actually think it's as cheap as you first think. I have 40 loco's so buying the Bluetooth chips to replace the normal DCC ones they already have will cost over £1000, whereas Rocos Z21 cost me £500 and gives me the same app control of my locos.
If you've already invested in a system then I'd stick with that, I'm in a similar position. But imagine you're getting your first trainset, this is a way to get the benefits of DCC for basically the price the decoder. Previously it would have cost £££ for a command station.
@@LittleWicketRailway Even if all my locos were at the DCC ready stage, with no chips in them, it's still more expensive than regular DCC command station and decoders. (£800 decoders +£300 command station, Vs £1200 HM7000)
@peter sullivan again, this probably isn't aimed at someone with such a large collection of locomotives. Also, sound may not be your thing, but do that same calculation for sound decoders. The average retailer price for the new sound decoder is £60.
@@LittleWicketRailway I do agree there sound decoders are a good price and I will get a couple. As once you have downloaded the sound files, you can change a CV and then operate the loco on normal DCC. Where did you find the list of available sound files?
The stay alive will be essential for bluetooth control (that's why they have released these) otherwise whenever the locomotive loses power (for whatever reason) won't the bluetooth link drop off the phone app?
i ll stick with DC thanks :)
Good vid. However Zero1 again? Betamax? Still have my obsolete Zero1 in its box. Solving a problem that does not exist? Hornby's track record with DCC is awful, incompatible and substandard, doesn't install confidence as they bolt the stable door with what looks like another hair brained idea that was not well thought out.
Only time will tell with HM7000. I've actually been looking back at Zero1 recently and given it was launched in 1979 it's still got quite a few fans today. It was ahead of it's time, sadly didn't get the support it needed to really take off (phases 4 & 5 were abandoned) and was ultimately superseded by DCC, but it was the first controller that was truly digital, affordable and widely available. You've got a piece of history in that Zero1 box, albeit a largely worthless bit of history.
@@LittleWicketRailway Yes. Unfortunately unless any emerging innovation is adopted by NMRA standard body it won't be adopted by the market. Standards may inhibit pace of innovation, but it also protects early adopters from financial loss and obsolescence. I've invested in too many sound equipped DCC locos to consider another emerging experimental tech. I'm going to hold on to my pristine boxed Zero 1 as its a piece of modelling history.
@oceanfroggie the HM7000 decoders should work with any DCC controller and be NMRA compliant. How long the HM7000 app will be supported is a good question and we don't know if other Bluetooth apps would be able to also connect to the decoders.
In my opinion another Hornby closed shop, if it were open source fine, but it isn't. Another DCC dodge.
I think the decoders would work with any DCC system. So even if the Bluetooth functionality doesn't appeal to you this is still a programmable sound decoder for a reasonable price, hopefully with all the features a newly designed decoder should have.
@@LittleWicketRailway I'm pretty sure that reverse engineering this stuff would be pretty easy for open source hackers. If the major players sense market share, they will get teams dedicated to it. I reckon by a year's time, this will be considered pretty much open source. If Hornby were smart, they would licence it.
@@pierre-de-standing One thing I wish, is to have other manufacturers working on an open source protocol for Bluetooth DCC. Maybe based on Hornby's one if they are in...
just wish thery made a app to work on pc
The in and out zooming is bloody annoying to watch !
More complicated stuff,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,😒😒