Islamic Tradition vs. the Qur'an: The Question of Christianity in Mecca W/ Dr. Tomasso Tesei
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- čas přidán 5. 09. 2024
- This is a clip about the presence of Christianity in the original Qur'anic milieu and the different pictures of the original Qur'anic context given by the Qur'an itself and Islamic Tradition. This clip is taken from my interview with Professor Tommaso Tesei. If you enjoyed this video, please subscribe to the channel and like the video! Please be sure to check out the full interview, here: • Tommaso Tesei: Dhu-l-Q...
The biggest Christian community muslims had interaction with were in 1st Hijrah to Abassynia. That is when Surah Maryam and verses regarding Christians were revealed.
He suddenly knew Surah Maryam after he married Sauda who had come back to Mecca. 😂
@@toomanymarys7355 so your implying she taught him, yet she's not a prophet but he is LoL 🤣.
BTW can you give me reference to your claim about her?
@@A.--. he quoted apocrypha, made up legends, and thought it was scripture. You think Allah tricked him? Look up Sauda. Where did she live? When did she get back?
Thank you for bringing excellent scholarship to the world!
czcams.com/video/3TqocrII0gY/video.html
Its bogus scholarship and corner-cutting, shortcut-findibg, narrative-selling approach. A true scholar searches for facts to fill the gaps, not gaps to stitch a narrative.
Lets just focus on facts and not gaps. Thats how we will make progress togather. If everyone starts filling in gaps with their own narratives peoole will diverge in all different directions.
Mushriqeen were Idolaters and Ahle Kitab were people of Scriptures or past Prophets.
Again give References to verses so we can cross-check your assumptions and interpretations.
Just saying "tradition says' without quoting your source is like Engineer says "science tells us" instead of citing the exact paper or study.
Its a 10 minute clip! He can't say everything. Although I think tbf this chap has been overtaken research on rock inscriptions (also available ont his channel) that suggest the whole of the Hijaz was in fact monotheistic for 100-150 yrs before the Prophet. This changes the context of early Islam completely.
@@dodgysmum8340 Monothiests before Prophet Muhammad? LoL then why would they need to dispute.
@@A.--. But then how do you explain the inscription evidence?
@@A.--. its pretty hard to fake rock carvings from 1500 years ago.
@@dodgysmum8340 which one specifically? They have found done dated to life of Sahaba. The ones before the Prophet mention 1 god Allah which the Quraish believed in. Their sin was to associate partners (Laat, Manat, Uzza etc) with Him, made idols of them to put inside Kabba to worship and pay Homage to. That is SHZiRK.
If Christianity existed in Hijaz, where are their Churches and fortresses??
Even ruins of theirs would have been discovered by now.
2ndly: Islamic history acknowledge large population of Jews in Madina and surrounding area; if Christian populations existed why are they not mentioned at all??
3rdly: The Quran documents the conflict between Muhammad and Jewish tribes in Madina; if Christians existed in Hijaz how come they did not had any conflict with Muhammad??
So the fact is, Arab Christians existed in Yemen, Syria and other places, but there is no any evidence of Christianity in Hijaz. There were Jews, Traditionalist Arabs and Muslims. The audiences of the Quran.
When Christianity is mentioned in Quran it's part of Quran's normal debating with the people of the book, along side Jews.
Also the fact that Arab Christians existed on the fringes of Hijaz and some even fought the Prophet when his expanding state reached Roman borders, like Doumat al-jandal. Which is closer to Syria than Madina.
There are no Muslim ruins in Mecca.
That is why Mohammed stems from Petra.
From a scholarly perspective, what aspects Christianity do you think most influenced Islam as it's practiced today? Tangentially, what forms of Christianity do you think Muhammad would have likely encountered?
People would say Ebiobites or Nazarenes because they denied the divinity of Jesus. Some even think that Waraqa and Khadijah had embraced a form Nazarene faith. The narration about Waraqa in Islamic sources says (كان رجلا ننصر يقرأ الإنجيل بالعربية) he was a man who converted to Christianity (ta-nasar). The term is closer to Nazareene than Christian. Maybe they trained the Prophet to preach this form of idea about Jesus. However there is no evidence that there were ebionites in the Hejaz (Mecca and Medina) maybe he met some in his Journeys to Palestine and Jordan and came back to Mecca to preach this concept.
Arianisme
The British museum showed us the Ancient Pagan Syrians from present day Homs used to worship a Black Stone that represented their Sun god El Gabal or "Ilah al-Jabal" or Baal. The Black Stone was placed in their cube temple in Homs. It was taken to Rome in the 3rd century as depicted on Roman coins and later returned to the Syrians Pagans in Homs. The fate of the Black Stone beyond the 4th century is unknown. The popular academic opinion is that it would have been used for continued worship at another Pagan Baal Temple somewhere in Arabia.
Bethel (that is Semitic for House of God) stones have featured in Semitic religions for centuries. The black stone of the Kabba being one of many.
How long will you continue vomiting this nonesense, that seems completely ignored by Academics and experts alike. This conjecturing is only popular with the unhinged Christian fanatics in social media.
Trump supporters like kind of idiots. Hunging on to conspiracy theories.
Keep it coming any way.
We dealt with Petra conspiracy before.... it did not gain any traction. Experts just laughed at it.
Bogus nonesense and conjecturing.
I am sure you believe in your own delusional nonsense, probably copied from some Zionist chrstian website , written by a liar like Robert Morey who is in hel or Robert spencer. First I doubt that anyone in Syria Homs spoke Arabic which is closer to Greece than to Arabia. Secondly you can’t see black Color on Roman coin. Secondly most houses at that time are build in form of cubes. Secondly the Kaaba had more rectangular shape in the past. Thirdly the black corner stone has never been in the center let alone worshipped nor even mentioned in the Quran while black stones can be found all around Mecca and have no special significance.
This guy is a scholar?
È vero che il Corano abbia ampiamente parlato del cristianesimo nonostante che non ci sono delle comunità cristiane vicine però questo può essere esteso per molti altri soggetti citati nel Corano. La semplice realtà che il Corano è un libro comprensivo!
Greetings Dr Gabriel. Are you planning later on to post the whole interview?
It is posted under the videos section.
@@ExploringtheQuranandtheBibleThe city of Medina has never been Jewish since ancient times
Abu Bakr thought he was a Christian. He named his oldest son Abd al-Rahman. There were a number of slaves who had been Christian when captured and enslaved as young children in Mecca, too.
Hahahaha
@@ibrohimh9976 Where is the name Rahman from?
@@toomanymarys7355 The name Rahman was used by the ancient inhabitants of Saudi Arabia and the Republic of Yemen
@@toomanymarys7355 Abu Bakr was not a Christian but a Muslim
@@ibrohimh9976 Yes, it was. By which ones?
Probably it would worth to evaluate the quranic emergence not necessarily in a mekka - medina context, but in a syriac christian dominated area, such as the euphratee. The musrhikun themselves look like being the trinitarian christians, rather than pagans.
Hence the quran is predominantly preaching vs mainstream christianity
Good conjecturing. But facts are very different from mare conjectures.
@Said Hashi why conjectures?
The Quran is largely engaging syriac literature, from the peshitta to the apochripha
The Quran uses many syriac liturgical turn of phrases and as Arabic had no literature until the quranic rasm, the authors made use of syriac
The Quran makes reference about Christianity to correct its theology, Like God having a son, or having intermediary between God. Those are examples of what the Quran called "shirk".
If you re over the marks it actually confirmed Jesus divinity
Get Anna Bonta Moreland on the channel to discuss her view on how Muhammad ‘could’ have been a genuine prophet from a Christian perspective.
Also get Khalil Andani on to discuss the Qur’an’s view of the Gospel.
Great suggestions!
@@ExploringtheQuranandtheBible Oh, and Wilhelmus Valkenberg to discuss Nicholas of Cusa’s view on Islam and the Qur’an.
Neither faith could be there & then represented by its theology, nor by its formal liturgycal habits [if perhaps some transmitted corpus of text, much oral & else] - the church body at its margins & the not yet islam; what comes to mind as a sampler of the register of the gestures of Faith are the five pillars... [toatealepraznicului]
The Quran’s engagement with Christianity is actually pretty basic, and there’s very little to indicate that the Quran was developed in some flourishing Christian setting. The engagement is more indicative of a response to missionaries that may have come in contact with the Meccans and Medinans. So rather than getting into deeper debates that were occurring in the north (Syria, Iraq, Jerusalem), the Quran presents a generic, yet effective and time-tested counter that responds equally well to all Christian sects that appeared not only in the seventh century, but also before it and even to the present day. By presenting a paradigm where Jesus is a prophet and not divine or the son, this clarifies any confusing aspects of Trinity that still confuse Christians to this day.
The Quran appears to be a text developed BY the Christian missionaries for the Arabs-albeit non-Trinitarian Christians.
@@tjbergren Your statement appears to be anecdotal, but if it is not, then Can you please share the material evidence that supports your hypothesis?
@@mohammedahmad8039 I decided to delete my comment because it wasn’t as thoughtful as I would like. You asked a good question and it is difficult to respond to years of puzzling together what was actually happening in the 7th century instead of what Abbasids put forward 150-350 years later.
I do not trust the Abbasid narrative unless it is corroborated or at least shadowing early and external 7th/early 8th century evidence.
I often refer to Robert Hoyland’s “Seeing Islam As Others Saw It” and Gabriel Reynolds’s outstanding CZcams channel, “Exploring the Quran and the Bible” with too many resources here to recount.
I don’t think there is evidence of the historicity of Mecca as found in the narratives.
I think there is growing evidence for the Quran originating as an Arabic translation of a Syriac lexionary, or, and this is conjecture, but possibly a liturgical drama meant to persuade Arabs to convert to a form of non-Trinitarian Messianic Judaism in hopes of capturing Jerusalem and expediting the apocalypse so prominent in the Quranic material.
@@tjbergren So I was correct in stating your statement was anecdotal. I was hoping for a response with something more conclusive, but you are correct, your theory as you have expressed it does amounts to nothing but conjecture, And the tip of the irony for me is that if you accept the argument of the Quran being an older document based on what the studies of the early manuscripts inform us, then I find it ironic that you don’t have to look for a rebuttal for your argument outside of the narrative of the Quran itself.
I hope you agree that you don’t even have to believe in God or the Quran to appreciate the irony
Thanks for the response Tim, I appreciate your honesty
👍😁👍
Well, of course there wasn't any Christians, as Mecca didn't even exist. Mecca is a later invention.
Petra
i agree, i think it is time to look for a different context for the quranic emergence
You guys better known it. Who is capable of inventing a dying God would think that other invented a whole city. Claudius Ptolemy's map from the second century contains a city in the western arabia by the name of Macoraba.
@@torotorotaxi5367 Well, if YOU think it's time, then we should all probably sit up and listen......
@@paghal11 yes
So if you look how much the quranic rasm is rich in Syriac literature and you combine it with rock inscriptions which contain a similar Arabic in Syria and you see where the largest groups of Arabs lived, then the most probable place of origin is along the Euphrates in the area between edessa and al hira