Are ammo companies lying about muzzle velocity?
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- čas přidán 25. 08. 2024
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In this video, I conduct a detailed investigation into what sort of muzzle velocities 23 different 6.5 PRC, 270 Winchester, 7mm Rem Mag, 300 Blackout, 300 Win Mag, and 45-70 Government factory loads from Barnes, Federal, Hornady, Nosler, Remington and Winchester are actually delivering afield when fired from rifles with 24" barrels (or 16" in case of the 300 Blackout).
Here are the specific loads and rifles I used in the test:
Bergara Premier Divide 6.5 PRC (24" barrel)
6.5 PRC Federal Terminal Ascent 130gr Terminal Ascent
6.5 PRC Barnes VOR-TX 130gr TSX
6.5 PRC Nosler Trophy Grade 140gr AccuBond
6.5 PRC Hornady Precision Hunter 143gr ELD-X
Browning A-Bolt 270 Winchester (24" barrel)
270 Win Hornady Superformance 130gr SST
270 Win Federal Power Shok 130gr Soft Point
270 Win Hornady Precision Hunter 145gr ELD-X
270 Win Remington Core Lokt 150gr Core Lokt
270 Win Winchester Power Point 150gr Power Point
Remington Model 700 7mm Remington Magnum (24" barrel)
7mm Rem Mag Federal Power Shok 150gr Power Shok
7mm Rem Mag Hornady Precision Hunter 162gr ELD-X
7mm Rem Mag Winchester Expedition Big Game Long Range 168gr AccuBond Long Range
Diamondback DB15 300 Blackout (16" barrel)
300 BO Barnes VOR-TX 120gr TAC-TX
300 BO Federal Fusion MSR 150gr Fusion
300 BO Winchester Power Point 150gr Power Point
300 BO Hornady Subsonic 190gr SUB-X
Ruger Hawkeye FTW Hunter 300 Winchester Magnum (24" barrel)
300 Win Mag Winchester Power Point 150gr Power Point
300 Win Mag Remington Core Lokt 180gr Core Lokt
300 Win Mag Hornady Precision Hunter 178gr ELD-X
300 Win Mag Hornady Precision Hunter 200gr ELD-X
300 Win Mag Federal Terminal Ascent 200gr Terminal Ascent
Marlin 1895 .45-70 Government (24" barrel)
45-70 Govt Barnes VOR-TX 300gr TSX
45-70 Govt Hornady LEVERevolution 325gr FTX
As you'll learn, I discovered a couple of very interesting things about the accuracy of advertised muzzle velocities when you shoot that ammo in a rifle with a long enough barrel.
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You are the most thorough guy on you tube not hating on calibers just stating facts. Breath of fresh air thanks!
I appreciate it!
I agree. And not taking other channels word for it. This is a great test and discussion.
Some of the 7mm magnums and 300 Winchester magnums have 26 inch barrels
I agree, both of my .300wm and 7mmRM have 26", in Rem 700s
True. 24" and 26" barrels are pretty common with both. Hornady and Federal both advertise their velocities with a 24" barrel for the 300 Win Mag and 7mm Rem Mag for the most part (Hornady's 178gr ELD-X load for the 300 Win Mag is one notable exception though and they specify a 26" barrel on their web site for some reason). In theory, you should be getting very consistent velocities that are a little faster than advertised if you're shooting ammo advertised to deliver a certain velocity out of a 24" barrel in a rifle with a 26" barrel. But your mileage may vary in real life though. Have you guys chronographed ammo in your rifles with a 26" barrel? What results were you getting?
@@Thebiggamehuntingblog I haven't tested much due to cost, part of the reason I turn to CZcams and channels like yours, Banana Ballistics and even the guys over at Vortex Podcast, however; I have run both over a cheap Caldwell Chrono and I get box posted velocities for the 7mm Rem Mag using Remington Premier 160gr swift A-Frame right at 2900+ fps, for the 300 Win Mag I normally hand load running 190gr ABLR at 3000fps and haven't tested any factory loads. Your video was interesting, I know a lot of work went into it.
Hornady is most definitely misreporting the velocitiy for their 7PRC Precision hunter 175 eldx and has come out publicly admitting as such. (See Ron Spomer's podcast interview with Hornady). They say this is due to the powder shortage and they have had to switch powders. The box still says 3000 ft/sec but most people are getting closer to 2800. The 7PRC is a long range precision rifle and 200fps makes a big difference at 500 and beyond. The 7PRC is basically a 7 rem mag at those velocities even with the high BC 175 eldx compared to a 162 eldx out of the 7 mag. While we can understand and give them a break for having to deal with the powder shortage, what is not OK is them not adjusting the advertised velocities on the box hoping we wouldn't notice.
Here are the details of my experiences with 7mm PRC velocities: czcams.com/video/4z28TJTQ-Rg/video.html
FIRST WORLD "PROBLEMS" VOICED BY HORNADY HATERS. GET A LIFE, LADIES.
Yeah this is the issue with the powder shortage. No reasonable person is blaming them for choosing accuracy over velocity. I’m blaming them staunchly for not being up front about it in their advertising. And when they got caught, they didn’t admit their error, just made excuses for the error. This is the problem: they are no longer trustworthy.
My Weatherby ammo is expensive but it gets the velocity it says.
I've shot very little Weatherby brand ammo myself, but I've heard lots of other people say similar things to what you just expressed: it's expensive, but tends to shoot accurately and deliver velocities very close to advertised.
Back in the early 70's one of the Gun Digests had a great article "Bull with the Figures". The early Speer reloading manuals also used to have tables of the velocities they got using their rifles and factory ammunition. If you have access to one of these manuals from around 1962 , check out the factory velocities they got with the 7mm Rem mag and factory ammunition.
Do you recall what specific editions of the Speer reloading manual had that data? I have an older edition myself, but don't recall seeing that info on the 7mm Rem Mag you mentioned
@@Thebiggamehuntingblog Speer Manual numbers 6, 7, 8, 9 & 10
Let me see which one I have...
Eventually someone that's does the tests correct!!! Thanks as always great vids!!!
Thank you!
I saw something similar to this on Reloading Weatherby. I'm glad to see multiple CZcamsr content creators calling this out.
Right on!
Awesome video. This was a lot of work
100%!
They lie about b.c and having temp stable powder. I quit calling it lying and now call it "marketing".
Who is lying about BC?
@@Thebiggamehuntingblog well hornady reworked the polymer tips because what they said on the box wasent what dopler radar was showing. They said that tips deformed mid flight on there podcast, but much more clear and better educated. Also nosler is not consistent bullet to bullet (mainly referencing accubond personal experience) handloaded 160ab in 280ai on targets out to 1000. Berger was more consistent. I don't really shoot game over 600 so it don't matter. Do a test @ 600 yards 5 rounds on dash that are hot then 5 in sealed bag in cooler. Love the content. Marking is just stretching the truth as much as the lawyers say they can defend.
@@JVR-gd7zw I don't believe for one second that their tips were melting! Nope, no way.
Very thorough, as always. Really appreciate these vids John! Keep em coming
Thanks, will do!
Very helpful. Many thanks. Well done.
Very good video, John. Anyone contemplating shooting game at longer ranges should shoot the ammo they plan to use through a chronograph beforehand so they can know the actual trajectory they are getting to make an ethical shot. You can’t simply look at the chart on the box of ammo and go by that - at least not for longer ranges.
100%!
Agreed! You shouldn’t shoot game past what you’ve verified at a range first
I have a Bergara premier approach 6.5 PRC and I had the same result with the terminal ascent.
Tell me more
based on interviews with Hornady spokesman on Ron Spomer re 7 PRC they have been forced to adjust recipe due to powder not available. will always be errors between claimed ammo and what reloaders and shooters find so many variables.
That's correct. I covered the 7mm PRC in more detail in a previous video (to include some things Seth and Ron didn't talk about) and you can learn more here: czcams.com/video/4z28TJTQ-Rg/video.html
Good video. I am beginning think that the quality of the barrel is the really is a big factor in velocity, the interior finish and such. I did the same type of test last year with my rifles in .308, .223, 7.62x39, and .270. I was mostly concerned about the .308, as it's my hunting rifle. It's a custom 700 with a 22" barrel. I tested 25 different factory loads, and all but one were at the box velocity or better for an average, and the one that wasn't was Barnes Vor-Tex 168gr and it was 50 fps slow. All of those same loads were a minimum of 150 fps slower in a 20" Browning BLR from the late 70's, some were 200 fps slower. The ten 7.62x39 loads that I ran through a Howa 1500 Mini with a 22" barrel were also spot on the box velocity for an average. I only had one .270 load, Hornady 140gr American Whitetail, through an old Mossberg Maverick 22" barrel, it was 250 fps slower than the box velocity. Interesting enough, the .223 loads (15 different loads) weren't consistent across the board in a couple of 22" barrel T/C Dimensions. This I found a bit perplexing, as those T/C 5R barrels were very smooth and those rifles still shot MOA or better with every load. Some were spot on the box, some were much slower, and Winchester 5.56 white box was 300 fps faster in the T/C (gasp I shot 5.56 in a .223), and 400 fps faster in a 16" AR in 5.56. There was little to no difference between the 16" and 22" barrels, most loads were within 50 fps in the two rifles, even given the 6" difference in length. The two most consistent loads in both rifles, velocity wise, were ADI 55gr Blitzking and ADI 69gr Matchking,
You make an excellent point with regards to barrel quality. It's much harder to measure "quality" than something simple like length, but it undoubtedly has an impact on velocity (not to mention accuracy).
The definition of accuracy:....the quality, condition, or fact of being exact and accurate. Come on Hornady
Vary good video! Really enjoyed it! Makes me want to and get out some factory stuff.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Right now, I don't trust Hornady's numbers.
Doing your own testing is the only way to go. If the ammo from a similar length barrel is in ballpark on average, +- 10%, I would not "dis" the mfg. for their numbers, because different guns different temps and elevations, etc. However, if I were getting wide extreme spreads from the ammo during a session, I might have more of a problem with some of their claims. I am not going into long distance precision shooting with factory ammo anyway. I have been fairly pleased with most hunting ammunition and almost all my shots will be UNDER 200 yards.
Yeah, that's the ticket. I've chronographed A LOT of ammo (far more that what I included in this video) and I haven't encountered any deviation in performance from advertised that was large enough to cause issues inside 200 yards (even with a shorter barrel).
10% in my opinion would be too extreme of a deviation. If advertised velocity was 3000 fps then your talking about 300 fps slower
Crazy how many people complain about .223 velocities while being ignorant that they were with a 24” barrel?
Props to you for giving a fair shake to the manufacturer.
However they really should be required to list the test barrel length of their gonna state a velocity? It just makes sense to me?
100%. I know that Hornady does indeed specifically state the barrel length they obtain that velocity with on their web site for each specific load. They're the only company I can think of off the bat that does that though...
@@Thebiggamehuntingblog I believe every box of ammo should state the test barrel. Like their should be an industry watchdog that requires ammo to either not list a velocity or if they do they must list the test barrel? I would also like them to be required to list if it uses a lower than standard powder charge, but that’s another story…
Some factor ammo uses faster burning powder and you can obtain the same speed even from short barrels.
That's a good point and you can definitely do that with some cartridges. And I plan on investigating that in more detail soon...
Wish you had included the 300 PRC.
Maybe in the future!
G K. U.S.A. My Browning Bar in 150gr
308 Win. and 22 inch barrel gave me the same velocity as my 25 inch Nato (.308) Ishapour rifle. It also gave the same velocity as my friend's 30-06 using the same ammo. My 150gr Hornady and his Rem 150's in his Rem. 742. The 150 gr. 308 with 22 inch barrel seems to be the most efficient load in that caliber even though I used the 165gr load in both .308 and 30-06 for Wisconsin woods hunting. The .30-06 in 165 and 180gr have about a 100 fps advantage over the 308. Not a big dif
Very interesting!
Ammo companies should be required to put test barrel lengths on the box. Shouldn't be a problem if they aren't trying to be dishonest in their reported velocities.
Agreed
I agree but how about they state what powder type they are using. Don’t have to say how many grains but lot numbers mean nothing unless you buy and test them.
Required by whom? We don't need more government intrusion in our lives.
Great video! Thank you!
Glad you liked it!
I have a question. If you sign in a rifle at 85° during the summertime then do nothing else and go hunting and the temperature is 40°. What will the results be? will it have the same point of impact will the groups differ?
Groups will impact lower due to the colder ammo. Rifles should be zeroed in at as close to the conditions that they are going to be used as possible.
If it’s with factory ammo, powders used for them are really temperature sensitive so you might see a loss of velocity. Will it change your groups? they can but not drastically
Cold bore will be the same unless major temp change
Yes and no in my opinion no because I'm sure major ones like buffalo bore, underwood, hornady, federal, and many others do chrono their own rounds but at the same time yes they lie because they sometimes use unrealistic barrel lengths like 20 inches for 5.56 while most people use 16 inch barrels or as an example hornady superformance 223 advertising 2900 with a 75 gr bullet but from a 24 inch barrel while most people are probably running 16 inch barrels or 308 ammo speeds coming from 24 inch barrels while alot of folks like 20-22 inch barrels since they are more handy
You make a very good point about Buffalo Bore in particular. They're the only company I can think of at this instant that provides velocity data for multiple barrel lengths. You also make a good point about companies advertising their velocities with longer barrels than what most people commonly use with some cartridges. 24" barrels are pretty common with stuff like the 270, 7mm Rem Mag, and 300 Win Mag like I tested in this video, but for example (as you mention) the 308 is much more common in rifles with a shorter barrel. Just another example of how the details are important!
Another well-done video.
I think we are seeing the same issue with chronographs that has been seen with bore scopes. People thinking that things are an issue that really aren't.
People were taking game just fine before everyone had a chrono in their back pocket. Nothing has changed folks.
This is a huge problem with .22lr. They say it's high velocity, but what they don't say is that it is only HV out of a rifle.
That's a good point. I'm planning a video where I'll investigate 22LR velocities out of a rifle and pistol with the same ammo...
🤔thats because 22lr stands for 22 long rifle. Key words 22 Long Rifle its self explanatory.
As always, good stuff.
Glad you enjoyed it!
@@Thebiggamehuntingblog Next can you do a video settling once and for all that the Savage .300 is the greatest cartridge of all time. And that the Savage model 99 is the greatest rifle of all time. Schnabel fore stock, pistol grip, checkered, cresent butt stock, octagon barrel, black walnut stock, iron sights, sling rings, round counter, 26" barrel. It can be engraved or not- I'm not a picky person.
This is a video almost everyone is waiting for. Thank you.
Good video and good advice. Your mileage may vary 👍
Thanks 👍
Why tell the truth? Nobody will buy it then?
Huh? The truth matched up pretty well with what was advertised for most of that stuff...
@Thebiggamehuntingblog I've personally crono'd Hornady in 30 06 and 7mm Rem. -175 fps in the 06 and -195 fps in 7mm opposed to the advertised performance. My 2 Browning rifles aren't liers.
@Thebiggamehuntingblog Also I will never use ELD bullets on anything I intend on harvesting and eating. Exploding bullets = wasted meat. Course I've only been hunting over 50 years. Gone back to reloading. Only bonded bullets for me.
26 inch is usually standard .
Dadgum ….that video cost some scratch lol
Don't I know it!
@@Thebiggamehuntingblog just found your channel. Thanks for the info
Welcome aboard!
Reading your title I can tell you probably went to school in East Texas too 😂 I went to Palestine
Oh jeez! Thanks for pointing out that typo!
Nonsence Not all barels are created equal same with rifles and ammo if a load produces velocities with an ES of 80 ft/ sec you are good
I wouldn't call changing your packaging with every new powder supply "lying." The information is always just general information and your barrel will always be different than their test barrel anyways but it is intended to generally convey the load parameters within reason. That said, should you care more about how the load performs in terms of velocity and disregard consistency when it changes? I know at least one manufacturer loads for stability and accuracy, with velocity not at the top of the list. Perhaps they should have to list SD/ES numbers too? Proven group dispersion? It's all just controlling variables to deliver a great product that will perform different in your barrel than anybody else's.
All in all, I was pleasantly surprised at how close almost everything performed relative to what was advertised. I often hear from viewers about velocities they've observed that are wildly off, but I've yet to see that myself and I've chronographed A LOT of ammo in addition to what I showed in this video. And I think you're also correct about consistency. Same thing with accuracy. I'd prefer a slightly slower load that was very consistent and shot accurately in my rifle over one that was faster, but fell short in those other areas.