Mr cruel has to be either a cop or detective. No civilian in the 80s would know that much about forensics to cover up his crimes so effectively. He took every possible precaution, meaning he knew exactly what they could and could not catch him with, possibly out of personal experience while working cases. We now know the EAR/ONS was in fact a police officer and used his training to cover his tracks. I think it’s highly probable mr cruel did the same. At the very least he was someone well versed in criminal forensics.
Or works at the airport, alot of these family's are foreign to where they are. Working as an air port cop you learn alot about family's coming in down to they names.
@@ryanbuesnel5064 Thanks for pointing out that there is a debate on the viability of the firmer lecturer from Melbourne university as the prime suspect. He may be Mr Cruel but the suspect is a conspicuously small guy, if the ACA video footage is anything to go by. Mr Cruel was of average height according to reliable witnesses. The offender spoke in a rough, uneducated voice. Something that the suspect has never been accused of, and he speaks educated English and fluent French. Suggestions he also spoke Yobbo are proof by lack of evidence. And at 50 the offender was a trifle on the old side in 1991 to be scaling 2 metre walls with a 5 ft plus teenage girl in tow (don’t believe any tosh about her being a small height, as even her mother said she was tall). The essay that the suspect wrote c. 1970 equating successful criminals with great artists is hardly new or alarming. And despite police and media getting excited by this, the work is surprisingly poorly written, contains mistakes and breaches of academic protocols and the ending looks hurried. And police would have it that the suspect morphed into the criminal mastermind Mr Cruel. I could go on but the reader probably gets the idea by now. Anyway, thanks Ryan for a thoughtful be concise post.
I will never forget watching Mr and Mrs Chan and her heartbreaking words, and her husband next to her, trying to remain stoic and strong for her, but barely holding up himself. And those letters…my goodness, so plaintive, so heart-rending. These were terrible times in Melbourne, and we were all devastated when Karmein was found. Even though a longer time had passed, there had remained some hope that he would release her, as he had Sharon Wills and Nicola Lynas. No comfort can be found in the suggestion that Karmein put up a struggle and managed to unmask him, and was therefore stronger or more of a “fighter.” Thirty years later, it seems a remote possibility that Mr Cruel will ever be found. It is still a haunting memory, not just for the victims, but for all of us who tried to help, or prayed, that Karmein would be found alive - and the police, who seemed to pull out all stops in their investigation (except for those responsible for the ineptitude in the processes of data-gathering and data security.) It is horrifying to think that he may be walking amongst us now. One (or more than one) has information that could crack this case. What is the reason for their silence? If we can find that reason out, we will be closer than ever to solving these crimes. The passing of each decade doesn’t let these people off the hook. It doesn’t make what they know less important, and it doesn’t take the trauma of any of it away. People have short memories? No, not with this one. It will always be difficult to forget those dark days - even if this perpetrator is finally caught. He’s like a stain that you will never be able to get out.
Listening to Karmein's mother is horrible; I can physically feel her pain through her voice, and I'm profoundly saddened for her and her family's loss. I can only hope they find their peace.
Hearing the mother pleading really hurt to listen to. I can easily listen to or read about horrific murder cases without issue, but I strain to maintain emotional composure when listening to the pure sorrow of someone who has lost a loved one.
The devastated and heart broken crying made me hurt, but it was the letter Karmein's mum wrote to "Mister Kind [...] With love from the Chan family" after it that absolutely broke me.
@@hawkstajeffhawksta9229 if he was in his 20 or 30's isn't probably dead. Hell even if he was 40 he may not been dead. Most girls children and parents said he was between 20 something to 40 something
An interesting aside from police and media is how come the offender and the kidnap victim (of 13 April) were not spotted by anybody.? The answer to this is simple: it was moonset. And even if there had been a moon it would have only been about 2 % visible 🌒. Added to this, the new traffic control system at Foote St-Reynolds Rd had turned Church St (which the offender used to make his escape) into a very quiet minor road, with correspondingly less traffic.
Getting a gun back then was super easy, if he was a cop, he could pick one up even easier off a raid or even just a crim. Getting a gun now is still bloody easy. I’m talking “black market” guns, not from a gun shop. There was a heap of old WW2 Webley Mk IV revolvers around back then too, returned soldiers etc just kept them. Anyway that’s my opinion from experience and hearing the tales. Cheers from Canberra Ps. A smart criminal would never have a gun license or Atleast a bloody license attached to a gun they would use on a job. That would be ridiculously stupid.
Dear mushrooming, you’re spot on here. At the time of the Mr Cruel crimes the daily newspapers used metric measurements almost exclusively, which in this case was a mistake. For instance in my work as a stationery buyer and in a hobby (model railways) I used metric measurements exclusively, but I always thought of people’s height in terms of imperial measurement. As far as I can remember only the Geelong Advertiser had the foresight to use both measuring systems in their articles back then on these crimes. Thanks for bringing the subject up. Police also should use a bit of commonsense here and issue both when reporting on, say, a kidnapping. Speaking of measurements, Karmein Chan’s height was never released by police and / or the media. Police said she was small, her mother said her daughter was “really tall”. It truly was appalling that the public were asked to look for a teenage kidnap victim but denied knowledge of how tall she was.
The only downfall of listening to this amazing podcast is that we can't see the police sketches of Mr Cruel...words don't do justice to how terrifying that homemade mask was that he wore...
I think Mr Cruel was a student of forensics and law enforcement he also was an electrician by trade to pay for schooling. He had a very high IQ and was an analytical thinker and planner. I believe the plane noise were a recording like the robbery red herrings he left. I do not believe he stopped i believe he got his degree and left the area or possibly the country. Most of the abduction and crime scenes are near electrical sublet buildings and electricians, especially Line Men know very complicated knots and most are highly intelligent.
Yes there was a theory that he had moved to Australia and was Mr Cruel. Though since they caught Joseph James DeAngelo its been confirmed he was not Mr Cruel.
They could go door to door in the areas like around airports and record their conversation with the male resident and play the recordings back to the released girls. You could narrow the playbacks to a certain criteria eliminating at least half of the potential suspects.
Apart from this probably being illegal, the logistics would rule it out as there were up to a million homes in the flight path/s where the offender’s lair, may or may not have been. Even with the “27,000 persons of interest”, the logistics would be dauntingly next to impossible for a 40 member taskforce. Playing back the audio of, say, the top 10 suspects while being interviewed may seem reasonable but voice identification would probably be as difficult as eye witness identification, especially since there are suggestions that the prime suspect (or the real offender?) may have disguised his voice. If such a notion was even attempted, it may play into the hands of the defence, especially if two victims chose different voices. And after, say, hearing a 100 or so men’s voices on tape, there would be the danger of victims’ memories being influenced or tainted by this procedure, something the defence would be sure to bring up.
I hate to say this but it seems like it is not gonna be easily solved..I'm really starting to lean on this person being related to cops.. he knows about DNA evidence he knows how the police work.. working that hard to get rid of evidence..its crazy that he didnt slip up..he knows what hes doing most likely
Three shots to the head sounds like possibly a fit of rage and, perhaps, was something he got no pleasure out of. Nothing was said about him enjoying torturing his victims, so maybe he was even horrified by it and it turned him off to future occurrences on the grand scale they had been.
Probably killed the girl as she could of made some sort of I.d him she might of seen his face so he had to kill her so it make sense to why he killed her
have they looked into suicides after the time Karmain was taken? I can't help but think that if she confronted him so he had to kill her the guilt was to much and he took his own life.
I doubt it. People like him dont care either way, dead or alive. That girl shouldnt have played with fire. I'll have my daughters listen this so that they have enough common sense to not antagonize a rapist/killer. Because thats how corpses are made. 🤔
@@belladonna5904 It depends on the psychological profile of the killer. If the killer wants to see fear in his victim, he’d prefer his victim to fight him, instead of submitting to his desires. As fucked up as it is, you show the killer you don’t care he’s kidnapped you.
@Gemma Dann I am right. Never take a threat from an armed psychopath lightly, its that simple. But this whole case is so awful its hard to say it like that, its just insensitive, but there is definitely a lesson to be learned.
Some people are giving the absolute worst advice here. Never let them take you to a second location. Either they kill you when you're trying to escape or take you somewhere else and torture you before killing you.
How he knew where the girls lived makes one wonder. Someone that has access to school students' personal details like name and address where they work.
It’s highly unlikely the offender was a teacher at PLC, and for these reasons. 1. The Nicola Lynas kidnapping took place on a Tuesday night at her home on a regular school week (3 July 1990). All other Victorian students were at school, too. Staff at the College would have been able to demonstrate they were in attendance there while Nicola Lynas was held in captivity somewhere else. 2. The offender spoke with a rough, uneducated voice, according to the Lynas’ sisters, Fiona and Nicola. Someone who spoke in an uneducated voice and said words like “Bozo” would be remembered forever and a day in an exclusive girls’ school. 3. The number of males working at a girls’ school like this is very few, and the number of unpartnered ones even more of a rarity. Partnered staff generally had alibis. 4. Police ransacked the homes of male staff members and measured their shoe sizes, etc. They drew a blank. A much strong line of investigation was the theory that it was someone who had a grudge against the school. Trouble is that could be anybody including someone the College didn’t know. Police went through a list of people who had issues with the school and also drew a blank. They then moved on to men who had some connection with the College even fleetingly. This included electricians, bus drivers, delivery people, visiting sports’ coaches, you name it. Police didn’t have any luck here. The problem of “it must be a teacher”:angle is that this does not explain why 2 students were in primary school elsewhere, and 2 were secondary students at PLC. No-one can explain this state primary school-private secondary college divide. And a relief teacher theory shows a real lack of understanding on how things work. PLC would only employ outside state relief teachers as a last resort. Most of this would have been done in house. And lastly, do not believe the urban myth (and Victoria police & FBI profile mistake) that all Mr Cruel crimes took place during school holidays. Nicola’s school mates sang “Happy Birthday” in her honour when they heard of her release at the College morning assembly on 6 July 1990. Because it really was her birthday. It’s all in the State Library of Victoria newspaper archives. Sadly the FBI profile is a complete dud! I hope I have been helpful here.
@@penguinvic4188 Maybe the police could have played back interviews they had of main suspects to the 4 girls in the hope that they might recognise his voice.
@@jamesglenn4266 Playing back the voices of major suspects to the victims may not be admisible evidence in court (i.e. courts are loathed to find guilt on DNA evidence alone, and with voices the defence could argue their client merely sounds like the offender but isn’t, etc) but as an investigative tool it could prove useful. Brian Elkner’s voice is on a clip from A Current Affair, and he speaks in an educated voice. The offender spoke in an rough, uneducated voice and used expressions more akin to tradies, like “Bozo”. Suggesting Elkner spoke fluent English, French and Yobbo, is proof by lack of evidence for the latter. No one in the print media seriously believes Elkner is a good candidate for Mr Cruel these days. Even so, I still think your suggestion re. voices, has merit. I hope all this is of interest to you.
@@penguinvic4188 Yes it is thank you. I think it's fair to say that Mr. Cruel had seen these girls in the community somewhere before he assaulted them. Meaning seeing them in the flesh as he referred to Sharon Wills by name.
An aside to the narrator: I found this podcast 2 weeks ago; like it, and decided to listen to all cases in order. Unless you identify who/what early on, I avoid looking up info beforehand. All of which is to say, I wish you wouldn't have spoken of the 1st two children abducted in the past tense. You made it seem (initially) that they had been killed - or then that Mr Cruel would maybe grab them again and kill them. Very upsetting, until I realized you simply misspoke...
Was it ever considered that Mr Cruel may have been a somewhat debt collector for the "well to do people" who lived in these suburbs the crimes took place. It is well known that these crimes took place in the wealthier suburbs of Melbourne's east. Wealthy people have always used criminals and gangsters to collect debts owed to them. Could people in the community of these suburbs the abductions took place new who Mr Cruel was all this time. You would be wary not to snitch on someone that has good connections with wealthy people wouldn't you.
Brian Elkner makes an unlikely suspect and no-one in the media takes this seriously these days. Firstly, he’s a bit on the short side to be the offender ... just watch Ch 9 TV A Current Affair program and it’s pretty obvious. 2. Elkner spoke with an educated voice v the offender who spoke with an uneducated, rough voice according the Lynas sisters, (who were present when he kidnapped Nicola on 3 July 1990). Police got excited when they uncovered an essay by Elkner from the 70s that equated the successful criminal with the great artist. This is hardly a novel idea, think of Raffles the gentleman thief of fiction fame. Worse, Elkner’s piece of writing is actually very poorly produced (multiple spellings of the same name - Cato & Caton etc- and failure to correctly state who the person actually is when more than one person has the same name - Cato again & Longinus etc). Police fell for the trap of thinking Elkner near genius for dropping in large slabs of untranslated French in his writing. And we are supposed to believe that Elkner who severed time in jail in the 70s for unsophisticated sex crimes, somehow morphed into a master criminal? Proof by lack of evidence! this is. Sorry for the rant but I think police made Elkner the prime suspect because they didn’t have anything better. I hope my answer has been helpful to you.
Have the australian checked with police of other countries to see if similar crimes. Gave ommiteed there wondef if he worked abroad sometimes and that accounts for gaps
Maybe not. He had a round Asian face and dark hair. The Lower Plenty victims said he had ginger / brown hair and an oval face. There is no evidence that he visited the Cantonese restaurant of the family of his last victim, and the mother didn’t recognise a police photo of him. No one has shown that he had connections to the specific 66kv high voltage electricity grid, put forward by researchers. Added to this the offender had a real thing for highly intelligent girls, bordering on genius. This in itself is unusual, suggesting an academic. He was a high school dropout. These is some circumstantial evidence, and he should be on the list of suspects, but that’s about it for the moment.
@@penguinvic4188hello mr p vic I have seen you around. ok points taken and i dont disagree , but one point seems strange to me and your not alone in saying that about Mrs Chan not recognising him, in my opinion that doesn't mean a thing; because she was not involved in seeing him anyways. why is this even a factor ? why would Mrs Chan have seen the perpetrator of the Mr cruel crimes, why should she recognise him ?
@@0warami_7oo You’re right, in the sense the perpetrator is more likely to have struck if the lady restaurant owner has never seen him. The trouble was people were posting on the internet, without any evidence or knowledge, that he must be a regular customer, because he lived within a km. Now the lady concerned had an encyclopaedic knowledge of her customers and their children. Several former customers have testified to this. The other thing was that he was half-Chinese but looked 100% southern Chinese. A Chinese restaurant owner will always notice Asian or Chinese looking customers (it’s a badge of pride to get regular Chinese customers). The other thing is people have postulated that he sold his dim sims to the victim’s family. If they sold dim sims (and this was an upmarket Cantonese restaurant), they would probably make their own (at least they would know what went into these). In the case of Lee, he was a pub man. People who knew him have testified to that. That’s where he’d meet his associates.
@@0warami_7oo It has also been put forward that the victim’s family must have owed NL money. Again no evidence. Around 1990-91 NL’s dim sim factory was in real financial trouble. The reason he participated in the failed airport robbery was to get money and pay off his creditors. Under these sort of conditions, it’s hard to see NL lending money to anyone, let alone the victim’s family. And this is important. The offender didn’t write on the victim’s family car the words PAY BACK (meaning pay back money owed) but PAY-BACK over two lines on the windscreen, which of course means “revenge”. The hyphen makes the difference but is obscured by the angle of the photo. Several journalists have made the mistake of only seeing PAY BACK and have come to the conclusion the victim’s father may have owed money to criminals, etc. Whoever wrote on the car wanted to look intelligent. In 9 words or so, there is a hyphen, comma and an unusual word (ANON). Not your average high school dropout or hitman. One thing the FBI profile almost certainly got correct is that the offender was well-read. The thing is, was NL well-read?
@@penguinvic4188 thanks PV now that makes much more sense , that does make it seem less likely NL was the perpetrator with that strength story . good work
I have so many nightmares all the time about this person so many dreams that are the same. I’ve seen so many psychologists it’s not funny. All I see in the dreams is a person working as a train conductor with a black balaclava collecting tickets. I see him wearing a black mask as well. He would prey on his victims then rape them in a green uniform With the black mask then wake up and Go to work on his early shift.
I think the man NEVER wanted to kill the girls, her mothers admission, that she would have taken off the eye blind says volumes, and, he being so shocked by his act,(killing) never would have repeated the act.(kidnap). Just saying, my opinion you know. Peace be unto you.
Dear Manj Sher, Let me assure you that staff (admin, teachers, janitors, cleaners, etc.,) were some of the first people detectives looked into at the school the last two victims attended. Almost all got cleared straightaway. The reason. They were attending their school work duties when Nicola Lynas was being held captive for those 50 hours on 3 July to 6 July, for this was a normal school week for her college and for the rest of Victoria’s school students. It’s all in the State Library of Victoria newspaper archives. But what about the 1991 FBI profile that said all 4 incidents took place during school holidays? A complete dud ... not remotely true ... a Victorian police error ... which they then handed over to the FBI. These days it’s generally agreed in the court of public opinion that the offender is or was a police officer. How true this is or not is subject to debate.
@@manjsher3094 Police obviously missed someone because the offender was never caught. Back then in 1991 police and the college drew up an enormous list of people who worked at the school, visited the school (as in sports coaches), tradies who did repair work, etc. Can’t fault the police here, they even measured the foot sizes of these men! One question though? Why a janitor (who I might add lived on the school grounds and couldn’t take his holidays during school time)? Why not a teacher? Why not a bus driver? And how could the college janitor/s be involved when the first two victims went to state primary schools miles away? Liked your question, though, but I can assure you the janitors and gardeners were in the frame but were cleared because they were at work when Nicola Lynas was kidnapped.
@@michelehicks3873 I have supplied information here that is not on the media record in an effort to aid those who are interested. If you have a question on the cold cases I am more than happy to answer these. I also think it’s important to know the 1991 FBI profile and covering letter of 24 April 1991 is badly flawed and some of its conclusions are based on an error.
Mr cruel has to be either a cop or detective. No civilian in the 80s would know that much about forensics to cover up his crimes so effectively. He took every possible precaution, meaning he knew exactly what they could and could not catch him with, possibly out of personal experience while working cases. We now know the EAR/ONS was in fact a police officer and used his training to cover his tracks. I think it’s highly probable mr cruel did the same. At the very least he was someone well versed in criminal forensics.
Well obviously
Or works at the airport, alot of these family's are foreign to where they are. Working as an air port cop you learn alot about family's coming in down to they names.
@Gemma Dann apparently there’s a post in the mr cruel Reddit where the user thinks it’s her perv stepdad
The prime suspects is a former lecturer at Melbourne University, although there is a lot of debate on his viability.
@@ryanbuesnel5064 Thanks for pointing out that there is a debate on the viability of the firmer lecturer from Melbourne university as the prime suspect.
He may be Mr Cruel but the suspect is a conspicuously small guy, if the ACA video footage is anything to go by. Mr Cruel was of average height according to reliable witnesses.
The offender spoke in a rough, uneducated voice. Something that the suspect has never been accused of, and he speaks educated English and fluent French. Suggestions he also spoke Yobbo are proof by lack of evidence.
And at 50 the offender was a trifle on the old side in 1991 to be scaling 2 metre walls with a 5 ft plus teenage girl in tow (don’t believe any tosh about her being a small height, as even her mother said she was tall).
The essay that the suspect wrote c. 1970 equating successful criminals with great artists is hardly new or alarming. And despite police and media getting excited by this, the work is surprisingly poorly written, contains mistakes and breaches of academic protocols and the ending looks hurried. And police would have it that the suspect morphed into the criminal mastermind Mr Cruel.
I could go on but the reader probably gets the idea by now.
Anyway, thanks Ryan for a thoughtful be concise post.
I remember the Karmein Chan case and the desperate pleas her mother made publicly. It was heart wrenching. So sad to hear she was killed. :(
I used to know karmeins mother so when I heard her cries for mr cruel to bring Karmein back I almost cried
Really? How
I will never forget watching Mr and Mrs Chan and her heartbreaking words, and her husband next to her, trying to remain stoic and strong for her, but barely holding up himself. And those letters…my goodness, so plaintive, so heart-rending.
These were terrible times in Melbourne, and we were all devastated when Karmein was found. Even though a longer time had passed, there had remained some hope that he would release her, as he had Sharon Wills and Nicola Lynas. No comfort can be found in the suggestion that Karmein put up a struggle and managed to unmask him, and was therefore stronger or more of a “fighter.”
Thirty years later, it seems a remote possibility that Mr Cruel will ever be found. It is still a haunting memory, not just for the victims, but for all of us who tried to help, or prayed, that Karmein would be found alive - and the police, who seemed to pull out all stops in their investigation (except for those responsible for the ineptitude in the processes of data-gathering and data security.)
It is horrifying to think that he may be walking amongst us now.
One (or more than one) has information that could crack this case. What is the reason for their silence? If we can find that reason out, we will be closer than ever to solving these crimes. The passing of each decade doesn’t let these people off the hook. It doesn’t make what they know less important, and it doesn’t take the trauma of any of it away.
People have short memories? No, not with this one. It will always be difficult to forget those dark days - even if this perpetrator is finally caught. He’s like a stain that you will never be able to get out.
the mother screaming gave me goose bumps jeez
Listening to Karmein's mother is horrible; I can physically feel her pain through her voice, and I'm profoundly saddened for her and her family's loss. I can only hope they find their peace.
Oh Lord.... Karmein's mother..... so heartbreaking.
Hearing the mother pleading really hurt to listen to. I can easily listen to or read about horrific murder cases without issue, but I strain to maintain emotional composure when listening to the pure sorrow of someone who has lost a loved one.
I've become quite desensitized but had to skip that, it was disturbing, especially the quiver of her voice.
Oh The Mirth
Couldn't stand it either☹️☹️🥺!!!
The devastated and heart broken crying made me hurt, but it was the letter Karmein's mum wrote to "Mister Kind [...] With love from the Chan family" after it that absolutely broke me.
This is the one piece of shit that I hope they catch. Out of all the unsolved cases in the world, I want this case to be solved.
He's probably dead
@@hawkstajeffhawksta9229 if he was in his 20 or 30's isn't probably dead. Hell even if he was 40 he may not been dead. Most girls children and parents said he was between 20 something to 40 something
Hearing the Mothers plea for Karmeins return made my heart break 💔😞 it has me crying at work
An interesting aside from police and media is how come the offender and the kidnap victim (of 13 April) were not spotted by anybody.? The answer to this is simple: it was moonset. And even if there had been a moon it would have only been about 2 % visible 🌒. Added to this, the new traffic control system at Foote St-Reynolds Rd had turned Church St (which the offender used to make his escape) into a very quiet minor road, with correspondingly less traffic.
A very interesting case..Thanks
I live in eltham, Melbourne which is next to the restaurant Karmein’s mother owned she was such a nice woman
i live in eltham too and my friend knew karmeins mother as well
I don't live in Eltham and I didn't know her mother.
I don't even live in Victoria and all I know is Stacy's mom has got it goin' on
I bet they didn't interview any police
It just occurred to me that gun law changed in 1996 in Australia, so Mr Cruel would have had to get a gun license for the weapon he used.
Why? Couldn't he just have either kept or destroyed his gun?
Not if he is a cop
I doubt he'd use his work weapon. That's too sloppy. Plus if he is an officer he could have access to weapons from many sources most illegal.
Not if he had one from before the laws were passed.
Getting a gun back then was super easy, if he was a cop, he could pick one up even easier off a raid or even just a crim. Getting a gun now is still bloody easy. I’m talking “black market” guns, not from a gun shop. There was a heap of old WW2 Webley Mk IV revolvers around back then too, returned soldiers etc just kept them. Anyway that’s my opinion from experience and hearing the tales. Cheers from Canberra
Ps. A smart criminal would never have a gun license or Atleast a bloody license attached to a gun they would use on a job. That would be ridiculously stupid.
I would say he moved abroad. Many police forces in other juristicions are completely clueless. I say this from experience.
Thank you for adding in Imperial measurements !
Dear mushrooming, you’re spot on here. At the time of the Mr Cruel crimes the daily newspapers used metric measurements almost exclusively, which in this case was a mistake. For instance in my work as a stationery buyer and in a hobby (model railways) I used metric measurements exclusively, but I always thought of people’s height in terms of imperial measurement. As far as I can remember only the Geelong Advertiser had the foresight to use both measuring systems in their articles back then on these crimes.
Thanks for bringing the subject up. Police also should use a bit of commonsense here and issue both when reporting on, say, a kidnapping.
Speaking of measurements, Karmein Chan’s height was never released by police and / or the media. Police said she was small, her mother said her daughter was “really tall”. It truly was appalling that the public were asked to look for a teenage kidnap victim but denied knowledge of how tall she was.
The only downfall of listening to this amazing podcast is that we can't see the police sketches of Mr Cruel...words don't do justice to how terrifying that homemade mask was that he wore...
I think Mr Cruel was a student of forensics and law enforcement he also was an electrician by trade to pay for schooling. He had a very high IQ and was an analytical thinker and planner. I believe the plane noise were a recording like the robbery red herrings he left.
I do not believe he stopped i believe he got his degree and left the area or possibly the country.
Most of the abduction and crime scenes are near electrical sublet buildings and electricians, especially Line Men know very complicated knots and most are highly intelligent.
brilliant. electrician by trade and leaves his victims at electrical sublet buildings..
@@xcidgaf are you being sarcastic?
Anyone else see similarities to the Golden State Killer? >_>
Yes there was a theory that he had moved to Australia and was Mr Cruel. Though since they caught Joseph James DeAngelo its been confirmed he was not Mr Cruel.
Redwoodrebelgirl
They did definitely and definitely rule him out...
2 disgusting disturbing BASTARDS though😒😒!!!
@@rachels2cents325 You keep using this emoji 😒😒
No
They could go door to door in the areas like around airports and record their conversation with the male resident and play the recordings back to the released girls.
You could narrow the playbacks to a certain criteria eliminating at least half of the potential suspects.
Apart from this probably being illegal, the logistics would rule it out as there were up to a million homes in the flight path/s where the offender’s lair, may or may not have been. Even with the “27,000 persons of interest”, the logistics would be dauntingly next to impossible for a 40 member taskforce.
Playing back the audio of, say, the top 10 suspects while being interviewed may seem reasonable but voice identification would probably be as difficult as eye witness identification, especially since there are suggestions that the prime suspect (or the real offender?) may have disguised his voice.
If such a notion was even attempted, it may play into the hands of the defence, especially if two victims chose different voices.
And after, say, hearing a 100 or so men’s voices on tape, there would be the danger of victims’ memories being influenced or tainted by this procedure, something the defence would be sure to bring up.
Yes any material or information gathered by the police when they entered people’s properties under false pretences would be inadmissible as evidence.
I hate to say this but it seems like it is not gonna be easily solved..I'm really starting to lean on this person being related to cops.. he knows about DNA evidence he knows how the police work.. working that hard to get rid of evidence..its crazy that he didnt slip up..he knows what hes doing most likely
Also funny how you went over that in the video I didnt even listen all the way threw before leaving that first comment lol
Skeleton bones
I also believe that it's quite a fishy 🐠 coincidence he knows so much about forensics....😒😒😒
I don't think he'll ever be caught...
I think a van driver. Using secure knots. You have to learn those. And in a van, you have a lot of time to think.
@Gemma Dann l used to drive a van.
@Gemma Dann l didn't. Lorry drivers use knots to tie stuff down. And most lorry drivers are serial killers
Is there a list of items missing. He may have kept.?
Ex Telecom Technician
Three shots to the head sounds like possibly a fit of rage and, perhaps, was something he got no pleasure out of. Nothing was said about him enjoying torturing his victims, so maybe he was even horrified by it and it turned him off to future occurrences on the grand scale they had been.
Probably killed the girl as she could of made some sort of I.d him she might of seen his face so he had to kill her so it make sense to why he killed her
These people are void of a soul
Poor things
I personally think that it was a veterinarian who runs a horse farm near the airport.
Care to elaborate? I am genuinely interested in your theory.
What makes you say that?
Sounds like something the real Mr. Cruel would say.
Was he one of the known suspects joseph or just someone you have a suspicion about?
Norman Leung Lee was Mr. Cruel. He was killed by police in 1992. Mr. Cruel never struck again after his death.
This is a very 🤔 interesting sad & disturbing case😒😒😒...
Could he be in prison for something else? That word account for gaps between attacks.
have they looked into suicides after the time Karmain was taken? I can't help but think that if she confronted him so he had to kill her the guilt was to much and he took his own life.
I doubt it. People like him dont care either way, dead or alive. That girl shouldnt have played with fire. I'll have my daughters listen this so that they have enough common sense to not antagonize a rapist/killer. Because thats how corpses are made. 🤔
Bad advice. You need to antagonize them to have a chance of surviving..
@@belladonna5904 It depends on the psychological profile of the killer. If the killer wants to see fear in his victim, he’d prefer his victim to fight him, instead of submitting to his desires. As fucked up as it is, you show the killer you don’t care he’s kidnapped you.
@Gemma Dann I am right. Never take a threat from an armed psychopath lightly, its that simple. But this whole case is so awful its hard to say it like that, its just insensitive, but there is definitely a lesson to be learned.
Some people are giving the absolute worst advice here. Never let them take you to a second location. Either they kill you when you're trying to escape or take you somewhere else and torture you before killing you.
Could the lair have been a motel or granny flat?
Could Mr cruel be a teacher at Presbyterian ladies college which at least 2 of his victims attended?
How he knew where the girls lived makes one wonder. Someone that has access to school students' personal details like name and address where they work.
It’s highly unlikely the offender was a teacher at PLC, and for these reasons. 1. The Nicola Lynas kidnapping took place on a Tuesday night at her home on a regular school week (3 July 1990). All other Victorian students were at school, too. Staff at the College would have been able to demonstrate they were in attendance there while Nicola Lynas was held in captivity somewhere else. 2. The offender spoke with a rough, uneducated voice, according to the Lynas’ sisters, Fiona and Nicola. Someone who spoke in an uneducated voice and said words like “Bozo” would be remembered forever and a day in an exclusive girls’ school. 3. The number of males working at a girls’ school like this is very few, and the number of unpartnered ones even more of a rarity. Partnered staff generally had alibis. 4. Police ransacked the homes of male staff members and measured their shoe sizes, etc. They drew a blank.
A much strong line of investigation was the theory that it was someone who had a grudge against the school. Trouble is that could be anybody including someone the College didn’t know. Police went through a list of people who had issues with the school and also drew a blank. They then moved on to men who had some connection with the College even fleetingly. This included electricians, bus drivers, delivery people, visiting sports’ coaches, you name it. Police didn’t have any luck here.
The problem of “it must be a teacher”:angle is that this does not explain why 2 students were in primary school elsewhere, and 2 were secondary students at PLC. No-one can explain this state primary school-private secondary college divide. And a relief teacher theory shows a real lack of understanding on how things work. PLC would only employ outside state relief teachers as a last resort. Most of this would have been done in house.
And lastly, do not believe the urban myth (and Victoria police & FBI profile mistake) that all Mr Cruel crimes took place during school holidays. Nicola’s school mates sang “Happy Birthday” in her honour when they heard of her release at the College morning assembly on 6 July 1990. Because it really was her birthday. It’s all in the State Library of Victoria newspaper archives. Sadly the FBI profile is a complete dud!
I hope I have been helpful here.
@@penguinvic4188 Maybe the police could have played back interviews they had of main suspects to the 4 girls in the hope that they might recognise his voice.
@@jamesglenn4266 Playing back the voices of major suspects to the victims may not be admisible evidence in court (i.e. courts are loathed to find guilt on DNA evidence alone, and with voices the defence could argue their client merely sounds like the offender but isn’t, etc) but as an investigative tool it could prove useful. Brian Elkner’s voice is on a clip from A Current Affair, and he speaks in an educated voice. The offender spoke in an rough, uneducated voice and used expressions more akin to tradies, like “Bozo”. Suggesting Elkner spoke fluent English, French and Yobbo, is proof by lack of evidence for the latter. No one in the print media seriously believes Elkner is a good candidate for Mr Cruel these days.
Even so, I still think your suggestion re. voices, has merit. I hope all this is of interest to you.
@@penguinvic4188 Yes it is thank you. I think it's fair to say that Mr. Cruel had seen these girls in the community somewhere before he assaulted them. Meaning seeing them in the flesh as he referred to Sharon Wills by name.
30:36
😮😮😮
An aside to the narrator: I found this podcast 2 weeks ago; like it, and decided to listen to all cases in order. Unless you identify who/what early on, I avoid looking up info beforehand. All of which is to say, I wish you wouldn't have spoken of the 1st two children abducted in the past tense. You made it seem (initially) that they had been killed - or then that Mr Cruel would maybe grab them again and kill them. Very upsetting, until I realized you simply misspoke...
This low life was a jack I think
Was it ever considered that Mr Cruel may have been a somewhat debt collector for the "well to do people" who lived in these suburbs the crimes took place. It is well known that these crimes took place in the wealthier suburbs of Melbourne's east. Wealthy people have always used criminals and gangsters to collect debts owed to them. Could people in the community of these suburbs the abductions took place new who Mr Cruel was all this time. You would be wary not to snitch on someone that has good connections with wealthy people wouldn't you.
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I think Mr Cruel is a teacher.
that's a nightmarish thought.
Prime suspect Brian elkner worked as a university professor…
Brian Elkner makes an unlikely suspect and no-one in the media takes this seriously these days. Firstly, he’s a bit on the short side to be the offender ... just watch Ch 9 TV A Current Affair program and it’s pretty obvious. 2. Elkner spoke with an educated voice v the offender who spoke with an uneducated, rough voice according the Lynas sisters, (who were present when he kidnapped Nicola on 3 July 1990). Police got excited when they uncovered an essay by Elkner from the 70s that equated the successful criminal with the great artist. This is hardly a novel idea, think of Raffles the gentleman thief of fiction fame. Worse, Elkner’s piece of writing is actually very poorly produced (multiple spellings of the same name - Cato & Caton etc- and failure to correctly state who the person actually is when more than one person has the same name - Cato again & Longinus etc). Police fell for the trap of thinking Elkner near genius for dropping in large slabs of untranslated French in his writing.
And we are supposed to believe that Elkner who severed time in jail in the 70s for unsophisticated sex crimes, somehow morphed into a master criminal? Proof by lack of evidence! this is.
Sorry for the rant but I think police made Elkner the prime suspect because they didn’t have anything better.
I hope my answer has been helpful to you.
Have the australian checked with police of other countries to see if similar crimes. Gave ommiteed there wondef if he worked abroad sometimes and that accounts for gaps
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Norman Lee ?
Maybe not. He had a round Asian face and dark hair. The Lower Plenty victims said he had ginger / brown hair and an oval face. There is no evidence that he visited the Cantonese restaurant of the family of his last victim, and the mother didn’t recognise a police photo of him. No one has shown that he had connections to the specific 66kv high voltage electricity grid, put forward by researchers. Added to this the offender had a real thing for highly intelligent girls, bordering on genius. This in itself is unusual, suggesting an academic. He was a high school dropout.
These is some circumstantial evidence, and he should be on the list of suspects, but that’s about it for the moment.
@@penguinvic4188hello mr p vic I have seen you around. ok points taken and i dont disagree , but one point seems strange to me and your not alone in saying that about Mrs Chan not recognising him,
in my opinion that doesn't mean a thing;
because she was not involved in seeing him anyways. why is this even a factor ?
why would Mrs Chan have seen the perpetrator of the Mr cruel crimes, why should she recognise him ?
@@0warami_7oo You’re right, in the sense the perpetrator is more likely to have struck if the lady restaurant owner has never seen him. The trouble was people were posting on the internet, without any evidence or knowledge, that he must be a regular customer, because he lived within a km. Now the lady concerned had an encyclopaedic knowledge of her customers and their children. Several former customers have testified to this. The other thing was that he was half-Chinese but looked 100% southern Chinese. A Chinese restaurant owner will always notice Asian or Chinese looking customers (it’s a badge of pride to get regular Chinese customers).
The other thing is people have postulated that he sold his dim sims to the victim’s family. If they sold dim sims (and this was an upmarket Cantonese restaurant), they would probably make their own (at least they would know what went into these).
In the case of Lee, he was a pub man. People who knew him have testified to that. That’s where he’d meet his associates.
@@0warami_7oo It has also been put forward that the victim’s family must have owed NL money. Again no evidence. Around 1990-91 NL’s dim sim factory was in real financial trouble. The reason he participated in the failed airport robbery was to get money and pay off his creditors. Under these sort of conditions, it’s hard to see NL lending money to anyone, let alone the victim’s family.
And this is important. The offender didn’t write on the victim’s family car the words PAY BACK (meaning pay back money owed) but PAY-BACK over two lines on the windscreen, which of course means “revenge”. The hyphen makes the difference but is obscured by the angle of the photo. Several journalists have made the mistake of only seeing PAY BACK and have come to the conclusion the victim’s father may have owed money to criminals, etc.
Whoever wrote on the car wanted to look intelligent. In 9 words or so, there is a hyphen, comma and an unusual word (ANON). Not your average high school dropout or hitman. One thing the FBI profile almost certainly got correct is that the offender was well-read. The thing is, was NL well-read?
@@penguinvic4188 thanks PV now that makes much more sense , that does make it seem less likely NL was the perpetrator with that strength story . good work
Acknowledging his signature name as Mr cruel is just giving him status.These idiots just want notatary.
Might be peter scully
Not likely. Scully was 6 ft. Mr Cruel was of average height. Completely different MO.s too.
çops tried hard
I have so many nightmares all the time about this person so many dreams that are the same. I’ve seen so many psychologists it’s not funny.
All I see in the dreams is a person working as a train conductor with a black balaclava collecting tickets.
I see him wearing a black mask as well. He would prey on his victims then rape them in a green uniform
With the black mask then wake up and
Go to work on his early shift.
I think the man NEVER wanted to kill the girls, her mothers admission, that she would have taken off the eye blind says volumes, and, he being so shocked by his act,(killing) never would have repeated the act.(kidnap). Just saying, my opinion you know. Peace be unto you.
Janitorial at the school needs to be looked into. Just saying.
Dear Manj Sher,
Let me assure you that staff (admin, teachers, janitors, cleaners, etc.,) were some of the first people detectives looked into at the school the last two victims attended. Almost all got cleared straightaway. The reason. They were attending their school work duties when Nicola Lynas was being held captive for those 50 hours on 3 July to 6 July, for this was a normal school week for her college and for the rest of Victoria’s school students.
It’s all in the State Library of Victoria newspaper archives. But what about the 1991 FBI profile that said all 4 incidents took place during school holidays? A complete dud ... not remotely true ... a Victorian police error ... which they then handed over to the FBI.
These days it’s generally agreed in the court of public opinion that the offender is or was a police officer. How true this is or not is subject to debate.
@@penguinvic4188 they missed some one
@@manjsher3094 Police obviously missed someone because the offender was never caught. Back then in 1991 police and the college drew up an enormous list of people who worked at the school, visited the school (as in sports coaches), tradies who did repair work, etc. Can’t fault the police here, they even measured the foot sizes of these men!
One question though? Why a janitor (who I might add lived on the school grounds and couldn’t take his holidays during school time)? Why not a teacher? Why not a bus driver?
And how could the college janitor/s be involved when the first two victims went to state primary schools miles away?
Liked your question, though, but I can assure you the janitors and gardeners were in the frame but were cleared because they were at work when Nicola Lynas was kidnapped.
@@penguinvic4188 You have not said anything of importance regarding this case.
@@michelehicks3873 I have supplied information here that is not on the media record in an effort to aid those who are interested. If you have a question on the cold cases I am more than happy to answer these. I also think it’s important to know the 1991 FBI profile and covering letter of 24 April 1991 is badly flawed and some of its conclusions are based on an error.
He maybe just related to someone in law enforcement heard about the dna evidence and what not from them just talking
Do you have a soul?