As someone who has been behind the scenes in movies, I GUARENTEE that letter was 100% Michael Bay. NO LOW LEVEL CREW MEMBER WOULD SAY THAT SHIT EVER!!!! They would NEVER get hired by anyone else ever again cause an actor would say "no I don't want people lying on me" and their manager would zip them out of their faster than the director could fire the crew member! And his later statements cement that for me. He has a god complex, he hated her for not worshiping him and made her pay for it. And he reveled in it.
It 100% reads like his own letter written after having his ego even slightly dented by her open and honest comments. He probably wouldn't mind her saying he was a dictator on set but calling him awkward, something that does not paint him as a powerful, confident and masculine man, resulted in him taking his deep insecurities and targeting her for it.
I worked as a technician in the theatre during college and we would never ever trash the actors to their faces (unless we were really good friends with them). We would never say anything negative about the actors to the director unless they were doing something unsafe. But generally we kept our opinions about the actors to ourselves and didn't share them outside of the technician circle. So it definitely does feel odd that "crew" members were signing off on this letter and claiming to have written it
It reminds me of Tenet, a film with timelines that are so genuinely misleading and chaotic was hailed by majority a success, but little women with 2 parallel timelines with very obvious different colour gradings was considered confusing, with a male (Nolan) directing the former and a woman (Gerwig) directing the latter
@@sorel7342 didn’t his wife get recorded saying that she lied about that and was actually abusing him? I can’t speak for the rest of it but that part in particular is misrepresented
@@ef1876 wasn’t that recording faked or if not do you know where it exists? Because I’ve heard people mention it, but i haven’t been able to find it, and the court docs indicated that some other stuff from depp’s side isn’t true so it’s confusing
I love how lately so many people are coming to her defense and apologizing or calling out the horrible way she was treated. Same with Kristian Stewart.
I think how Kristian Stewart was treated was because of those god-awful Twilight movies. I mean, teen and tween girls loved them and other very young people liked them. Those of us who are life-long horror movie fans would have only liked them as B-movies are comedies. It might have been how her character was written or how she was directed, but if I heard Kristian Stewart in those movies was a barely animated animatronic doll, I would have said "Oh! Not a terrible actress! A great animatronic doll!" And, to be honest, the Twilight movies are still my only exposure to her actual existance. So, I know nothing to defend against that notion.
@@That80sGuy1972 You should watch her embody Joan Jett on the movie The Runaways (2010), she did an amazing job :) I couldn't believe she was the same actress from Twilight lol so I blame it on the directions she was given. Besides, nobody pinned her co-star as a bad actor during that time, even though his character is equally awkward to watch (he himself said it million times in interviews) so there's that. Sarah Z did a thorough analysis on this phenomenon: czcams.com/video/l4QEFLhlh-Y/video.html
@@lina.7954 Also she was in a movie 4 years before Twilight called 'Speak' where she is amazing. Especially since her character is selectively mute through out the movie, so she has to carry the movie in her expressions.
everything that happened to Megan Fox is genuinely horrifying. i'm 15 and in 10th grade, the same age Megan was when she did the waterfall scene, and i feel sick about it. it's so shitty to think that they did that to a young girl.
Yea. I’m a 14 year old girl and in my mind I know that 15 is obviously very young, especially for a girl being instructed to perform in the way that Megan Fox was. But it didn’t really click for me until Rowan said that Megan was in tenth grade when the film was shot. Tenth grade. That’s only a year older than I am right now. I’m horrified.
@@MechaJutaro I know you're a troll. But damn, you have no integrity, do you? Making sexual comments about a minor, great job. I'm sure your parents are so proud.
@Jessica Buttgereit Bad Boys 2, which the video is talking about, came out when she was 17 which means she was younger during the filming. Not sure where you're getting 23.
@Jessica Buttgereit I’m very sorry, but you’re very much still a child at ages 16 and 15. You’re barely even an adult at 18 and 19. As a teen, you’re still developing, maturing, and living under the authority of adults. Actually, your brain doesn’t even fully develop until you’re 25.
I hate how we are taught to hate women just for existing and not being perfect. When I was little it was so easy and popular to hate women like Taylor Swift, Kristen Stewart, and Megan fox and that sad thing is I had no idea why I didn't like them, I just saw all the hate they got in the media and thought it was correct. It was all so clearly sexism and I can't believe I didn't know it.
You say while most films, especial action films revolve around killing men in the most brutal of ways and the bad guys usual are just that... bad ''guys''.
@@satangavemeataco419 I mean, most movies are just... about men, especially action movies. A lot of them don't even pass the low bar of the bechdel test
Dudes hated the movie cause they came to leer at Fox’s exploited body, not to have their dudebro exploitation of women’s bodies commented on in a negative light.
I do like Jennifer's Body but as an Asian woman re-watching it in recent years, I don't like the movie using some racist jokes regarding Thai food smelling and Chinese nail technicians.... and how they treat the exchange student. And Diablo Cody talking about how the Thai food joke is one of her fave jokes in one of the interviews in recent years.... not a good look.
Yeah in some ways the movie is VERY 2009, the quippy writing style that worked well for Juno didn't work as well for Jennifer's Body, and certainly wouldn't work if it were being made today.
@@margaretcummings4146 Yeah, like I would have loved the movie if it weren't for those jokes. As entertaining as the movie is, it takes me out of the movie every time characters say those things and I'm reminded of how othered I am as an Asian woman and for this white woman to write that joke thinking it's actually funny.
Yes! This is my biggest problem with the film, which to be honest I do not like overall. I can't put my finger on it, but something about it just doesn't quite work. Like how @Margaret Cummings pointed out that the quippy dialogue style that worked so well in Juno somehow didn't translate in Jennifer's Body despite it being the same writer; I can't figure out if it was the writing, the editing, the acting/on screen chemistry, or some combination of factors, but like with the dialogue, you can feel the whole film trying so hard but falling flat. But I could probably get past all those issues and maybe give it a mediocre rating if it wasn't for the jokes. 98% of the jokes are racist, homophobic, sexist, etc. punching down jokes. And they aren't even creative or original offensive jokes at that. Those jokes should bar the movie from being called a feminist film like some people are trying to claim it is. Feminism that isn't intersectional isn't really feminism, and white feminism needs to die already. I can't believe that in more recent interviews with Diablo Cody, I think for the 10th anniversary a few years ago, she said she wouldn't change anything about that film. Like really in 10 years you haven't grown at all or learned anything and would still stand behind your boring ass offensive jokes?
I’m so here for Megan Fox being celebrated and apologized to. I was always so frustrated at the treatment she got back in the day. She was a good actress who everyone treated as strictly eye candy
Diablo Cody deserves a collective apology as well. I remember the media being full of negative comments about her body, her past as a sex worker, blah blah blah and all of that as evidence that she was overrated and whatever. It was awful the way she was torn down.
I think she's made jokes in a few of her movies and shows that she DOES need to apologize for. The mainstream media never cared about those though and attacked her for her dialogue style when it's honestly not that different to Whedon's and he literally abuses his actors. That is to say, Hollywood owes her an apology and she owes the people one.
@@adoresessy101 I'll be honest, it's been years since I've seen it and I don't remember those instances specifically. But it does sound to me like something Jennifer or any of the other unsavory characters would say, with the purpose of showing them to be flawed characters. I think it should be noted that Karyn Kusama directed the film, and would have removed any anti-asian sentiment that offended her or she didn't see serving a purpose to the story. I could be entirely wrong, but I think that if DC wrote racist jokes into the script, they were from the point of view of the characters (who are mostly, aside from Needy and her bf, very bad people), not from DC's pov herself.
@@amandamarinovich6164 yes but then she said those jokes were some of her favorites. Meaning she found racist jokes funny, not offensive to show character flaws.
She is overrated. But that's because she's working in a system that would rather talk up one female screenwriter than make room for more female screenwriters.
what’s wild is when Jennifer’s Body was released I WAS the target audience in age gender preferences ect, but I had no idea because of the marketing and it was videos like this that made me realise it was worth watching. It’s a modern cult classic but the problem with that niche appeal is the attention often comes too late and I feel genuinely mad that for years the only projection of Megan Fox I saw was the version marketing and transformers wanted people to see.
I don't think I've sad catty things about her... but I sure have for other women. It never occurred to me that I did NOT know the facts. This video and your comment have changed my perspective. Time for me to change. Thank you.
The main point is that Media wanted her to be the sex symbol of the decade similarly to Marilyn Monroe and Angelina Jolie. They wanted her to be like those ladies because she is similarly to them uniquely beautiful. Comparing fairly unexperienced Fox to such movie icons is quite detrimental for her. People definitely wanted more from her and viewed her as an actress for male gaze when she didn't deliver it outstandingly she was rejected. Hollywood didn't turn that narrative to show that she is a person who plays a character but unfortunately she was mostly sexualized in movies especially directed by Michael Bay (he still didn't learn his lesson he doesn't treat female characters as people but sexy love interest with no personality whatsoever). It's Hollywood that failed Megan Fox and put great expectations on her. I think that people at that time weren't prepared for such a movie hence now that we get more of them Jennifer's Body was discovered. Movies made by women with actresses like for example Birds of Prey and the fantabulous emancipation of one Harley Quinn can be made because there is an audience who watches them.
I agree with everything and just want to point out how the effects of those same expectations on Marilyn and Angelina really speak volumes. They were treated the same Angelina was also very very young and it affected them tremendously, so even if one may consider Megan was too young to hold up to what was being asked of her, if we look at all the others, it's hurtful and sometimes devastating for all the women that were put under that gaze and expected to fill that role, we should be aware of it always and not only for teenage actresses because we have proof that its harmful for the women who are asked to go through this even if they later succeed in de-atached themselves from this ...trope? idk.
Unfortunately this is how the industry treats young women. I do remember seeing interviews with Megan Fox saying that, she doesn't like when women are pitied against each other. And as for me looking back on my thoughts on Megan Fox i just thought she was pretty and not a great actress. But now looking back on my thoughts, i was an idiot and didn't understand how the industry treated young women. I hope Megan Fox makes a comeback and people think more critically about the industry.
My sister also likes to talk about how Megan Fox wasn't a great actresses....which I never really had much to say over the matter. She's in very few things to begin with and horribly type casted. My sister loves to point out when a woman is a bad actress and shits on them for only being liked for their looks. But when I say Channing Tatume is a horrible actor. She has nothing to say because she's the one that likes him for his looks 😂
@@greeneyesgirl467 even in the dvd commentary the directors are like in multiple times of the movie go "that should be the poster" or "we wanted to use that there"
It’s so funny you’re posting this now - I just read an absurdly condescending article in a mainstream Canadian news publication that basically was a thinly veiled excuse for a 40+ year old man to complain about Megan Fox and her boyfriend being publicly affectionate on social media. As our culture continues to evolve and we revisit these unfairly maligned female figures like Britney Spears, Janet Jackson, and even Stephenie Meyer - we NEED to have a conversation about the way we have, and clearly are STILL treating Megan Fox.
@@pantarhey540 Oh, totally agreed! I’d say Meyer‘s treatment of indigenous peoples and cultures is one of the most galling of her many, many missteps. It displays a profound level of ignorance, entitlement, and privilege, and it’s very much not worth defending. That said, the way Meyer herself was treated and discussed during the heyday of anti-Twilight discourse was totally despicable. “Criticisms” of her, and her writing, were often thinly veiled and extremely sexist personal attacks, with many people disparaging her religion, intelligence, skill, and making unfounded judgements about her character, and frankly, worth, as a person. I highly recommend Lindsay Ellis’s video called “Dear Stephenie Meyer,” it examines the issue in a thorough, academic, and empathetic, way. Thank you for bringing up Twilight’s race issues actually - they’re even more upsetting in retrospect every time I am reminded that the actual real life Quileute people are still publicly crowdfunding to move their community out of a disaster zone and to better, safer, higher ground. (This is called the “Quileute Move To Higher Ground” initiative. Everybody please support if you can.) Certainly a celebrity writer of Meyer’s profile could be a great deal of help to the Quileute people in that situation. She could contribute some of her vast monetary wealth, most of which she made on books and films appropriating the Quileute name and misrepresenting their culture. Or she could use her large public platform, and legions of adoring fans, to help draw attention to the cause. Despite how effective this could be, she has decidedly remained silent on the issue. Not even so much as a retweet or social media share. That even after using them to build her fortune, she won’t spend a penny of it to help them, I think, says more about her character than anything she ever wrote in the Twilight books, and it is absolutely worthy of criticism. My point in invoking her name here in the first place was not to diminish that, but rather to acknowledge that the tone and tenor of public discussion and critique of Meyer, and her work, was consistently tainted by sexism and misogyny. Mainstream Twilight discourse didn’t spend time deeply considering the ethics of appropriating indigenous cultures - it either hid itself behind a disingenuous veneer of ‘concern,’ (“the relationship is problematic / unhealthy,” “Bella is a bad role model,”) or was outright “Stephenie Meyer bad.” This reminds me of what Feminist writer Jo Freeman would call “Trashing.” “It is not disagreement, it is not conflict, it is not opposition. These are perfectly ordinary phenomena which, when engaged in mutually, honestly and not excessively, are necessary to keep an organism or organization healthy and active… Trashing is a particularly vicious form of character assassination which amounts to psychological rape. It is manipulative, dishonest and excessive. It is occasionally disguised by the rhetoric of honest conflict, or covered up by denying that any disapproval exists at all. But it is not done to expose disagreements or resolve differences. It is done to disparage and destroy. Whatever methods are used, trashing involves a violation of one's integrity, a declaration of one's worthlessness, and an impugning of one's motives. In effect, what is attacked is not one's actions, or one's ideas but one's self.”
@@B.Arthur Hello Braden Lock, We watch the same videos here on youtube: Lindsay Ellis and Contrapoints offered some thoughtful insights, Sarah Z covered the topic with great care... I understand why you defend Steph this much, but sadly enough I grew up in an uninformed environment, and Meyer's cliches happen to trigger something nasty inside of me. Civilized (genius) and non white, have always been portrayed as a mismatch. The clash between white civilization and the non white's primitive attempts at this civilization have often been the topic of anti-emancipatory humor. I happen to be situated in a brown body with an impulsive "dog brain" (ADHD). Despite the learning difficulties I got a philosophy degree cum laude last year, but no matter the overcompensation, the reality of being on this specific intersection induces some guilt in me. Am I reinforcing stereotypes? You know, the stereotypes that Stephie likes to rub all over the pages and force into the movies? I respect Meyer. I don't owe her work any repect though. It got in my teens, when I read it... a few times... and the books started falling apart... because I wouldn't stop rereading it. Won't reread it. The random rule to instantly make vampires very pale, the fights with the movie director concerning a black vampire, the impulsive, physical abuse coming from the non white creatures etc. don't sit right with me. Especially after falling in love with her! The cheesy escapism that fueled the naive fantasies of 12 year old me... aaaah what a weird phase that was! It's not escapism anymore. It's white escapism, or neurotypical escapism, or maybe escapism for anyone but me. It hits my reality: it violates my integrity, t declares my worthlessness, what is attacked here, is the credibility of my existence. “Within these perspectives, misrecognition shows not just a lack of due respect. It can inflict a grievous wound, saddling its victims with a crippling self-hatred. Due recognition is not just a courtesy we owe people. It is a vital human need.” Charles Taylor on The Politics of Recognition Excuse my impulsivity. Just like my blackness, it's the nasty that I can't wash off.
Meyer is underrated. Twilight & The Host have their issues, but also have some interesting ideas. But "The Chemist" is great! I put it up there with James Bond/Jason Bourne.
it's so weird to hear that people disliked this movie due to lack of sexiness, because I remember when it came out I bounced off it specifically because of how oversexualized the marketing made it seem
I never wanted to watch it because the marketing (and title) make it seem like it’s just an excuse to ogle at Meagan Fox. It was so over the top in the sexualisation, I assumed there was no plot underneath. It’s no wonder the audience who bought tickets were disappointed
People just wanted to see what they were shown in the marketing. If I went to see a movie that was marketed as a horror movie but turned out to be a kids' movie instead, I'd be disappointed too.
Megan Fox's Michaela was the most well written character in any of the Transformers movies and it went completely over most of our heads, because she was just THAT sexualised that it drowned everything out
I still cannot believe that Bay's letter was ever considered a measured and/or appropriate response to Megan's interview. Like, I would love to know how some people's minds work, I'm so baffled.
Amanda the jedi has a video about Jennifer's body too. It's really good, but she moreso talks about how it has become appreciated after it's initial release. This video focuses more on the content of the movie, so I like that I can recommend both of these because they don't overlap.
i love that they don't overlap - i had to stop myself watching amanda's video until after i'd edited mine because i didn't want to accidentally copy any of her ideas/be filled with a deep sense of pointlessness at someone else doing a video about the same movie better than me haha
Chris stuckmann's review of the movie was great as well. Also I've heard the new movie freaky has a similar thing going for it. But yeah I like how the film is both a time capsule of 2009 and also how ahead of its time it is. One thing I heard about in when you were talking about listing to monster stories in horror generally the charecters that have had sex are often the ones that die first where as with cherry falls that trope is re versed and is about a killer who kill the virgins of the school so the kids there are in a rush to get laid so they don't die and in jenifers body it's important she was a girl because I doubt a guy seducing a girl into places like the woods or in a house that's not fully built in a part of town that's not being developed yet. I doubt that would work but since the guys that jenifer is targeting care more about getting laid then anything which is really clever.
megan fox has been done so dirty by interviewers, the media, people she’s worked with, and just the public in general. she seems like such a smart, capable woman and it’s a damn shame that people can’t look past sexism and misogyny.
Like how Stewart redefined herself and showed she had more talent than her more infamous roles led many to believe, I think Fox has potential to really shine... If she got the chance to work with a script by Sorkin or another writer who can write fast smart and witty dialogue, I think she’d reveal that she could hold her own. Too many times I've seen insanely skilled and intelligent actors get typecast as basically “superhot mannequin” because they are only viewed through the male gaze. But I love seeing what happens when they get the chance to show off their skills with intelligent scripts.
I remember reading a post on tumblr ages ago: “I’m not like other girls, so don’t treat me like how you treat other girls”. The concept of ‘I’m not like other girls’ can also be seen as a way to separate and distance oneself from the profile of victims of sexual assault, one that is modest, not sexual, and doesn’t “ask for it”. However this is a logical fallacy, as sexual assault is not logical. X was dressed as Y, and did Z risky thing does not equal sexual assault, nor is it warranted. Misogyny in women can be a way of trying to separate yourself to avoid victimizing yourself, but Jennifer’s Body is a way of confronting that by, just like Rowan said, reflecting the mirror back onto that judgement.
this is slightly off topic but i remember how devastating victim blaming was to me and how that tied into my own internalized misogyny. i was molested as a child and had convinced myself that i had to have done something to deserve it, it didn’t matter that i was only 8, by the time i was 13 i was 100% convinced it was somehow my fault. looking back, it breaks my heart but now i can understand where those ideas came from and i can begin changing the way i view myself and my trauma. i think it’s important we continue to have conversations about how victim blaming ties into “not like other girls” phases and internalized misogyny
I remember seeing Shia talking about how they got a model to replace Megan in the transformers movies cause models are used to being told to be sexy and know how to move their bodies for cameras. After that interview knew Shia was gross and the set had to have been toxic.
Honestly I DESPISE the way people and the industry have treated Megan Fox, espically because Jennifers Body shows that she has some AMAZING range acting wise.
As a man who was a teenage boy when the film came out I really appreciate this revisiting. I remember myself and my male friends being SO hype about the film because of Megan Fox and the marketing. We didn't hate the film or fox from what I remember. Although I remember personally feeling some disdain for her as her career progressed and in the light of the transformers "revelations." I feel quite bad for jumping on the bandwagon even if I never went after her myself. Like so many women before she was forced into a particular kind of role and presentation and then actively vilified for it. It's disgusting and it needs to stop. Thanks again for the video.
I really like the explanation of how making a plot a "girl" thing just takes a female character and how neutral things are "male" by default. I think I was 7 when I realized that male was the cultural default when my guy friend would expect me to play boy games but would not be ok with playing girl games, and when I learned to draw from a book where the default cartoon was male and you added things on for female cartoons
I hope Megan Fox comes back to acting, we did her wrong. I was 15 when the movie came out and very much a closeted bisexual filled with internalized misogyny, I wish I would have known better
it's so striking in those interview quotes how she was absolutely screaming for help and everyone not only ignored but used it to push her down further
As a 28 year old enby who identified as male for over half my life, I have greatly enjoyed, and continue to enjoy, many a movie aimed at teenage girls. Many of them, like the Princess Diaries, remind me of my mom, as we would often watch them together when they played on TV.
jennifer's body to this day is one of my favourite films of all time. It's subtext is way too complex for some of the people who rated it and really needs an good ol' queer womans lens to be enjoyed at full capacity. I think this film also exposes the issue of marketing and 'target audiences' really well. This film and others in the venn diagram of it's genre deserves to be celebrated by the types of people who love it most!
Yhara zayd has a similar video called “Jennifer’s Body & the Horror of Bad Marketing” that i recommend! i love this movie and i’m so happy that it and Meghan Fox are finally getting the recognition and love that they deserve
honestly, I think the best bit of advertising the movie got was the music video for panic at the disco's new perspective, which actually did a weirdly good job of showing the movie itself, and actually gave me a pretty good idea of what it was.
30:22 That’s so toxic of him to express, considering she starred in a movie some years before she got cast in Transformers (someone correct me, but I think it was with the Olsen twins who were big stars back then). Being granted loads of millions to do a movie and the massive push from press that comes along with it, is not the same as being some amazing person who ”turns” people into stars. This man is in dire need of humbling himself, because without all the financial funds he wouldn’t be in that position and that’s down to other people...it’s not a one man’s band to put together such a huge project a movie actually is. Sounds like superority complex the way he had to talk about these actors and his own involvement in ”making them stars” . All of them had been working in the industry before working with him. Take Affleck for example he did ”Good Will Hunting”, which came out before ”Armageddon”. Placed in its right context the statement lacks substance. Shia is obviously not ok, but work wise he even had a big role in ”X-Files”, which clearly must have lead him to other big projects from a very young age. And Will Smith had ”Prince in Bel Air” that had already made him a big name within the industry, way before ”Bad boys”.
Clicking on a Rowan Ellis video and getting some surprise Shonalika content is like biting into a delicious pastry and finding an entire other delicious pastry inside of it.
I remember going down the Megan Fox rabbit hole middle of last year and being disgusted by how she's been treated and the behind the scenes of her movies. She is so much more than she's been pigeon holed and forced into. I'm disgusted how people have treated her and managed to manipulate her image and everything. Megan Fox deserves a come back and one that comes with respect.
✨ some things ✨ 1. check the description for content warning info 2. this video was (as suspected) demonetised/running "limited ads" immediately - so if you want to support my videos and have some spare dollars so i can hopefully do this full time soon - www.patreon.com/rowanellis and ko-fi.com/rowanellis 3. hopefully see some of you at the aftershow - looking forward to hearing your thoughts/questions: stereo.com/heyrowanellis
I remeber seeing the trailer and thinking it was aimed at straight men that think lesbians are hot and not watching it because of that. I only recently found out its nothing like that and i wold probably enjoy it.
I loved Jennifer’s Body, and Diablo Cody should be more appreciated. This movie, and Juno, are amazing and they both cover unique female issues. It’s interesting to see how many people hate on these movies just because they explore femininity in a way that isn’t accepted
My dream is Jennifer's Body become a TV series, the plot is phenomenal and super engaging, an anti-hero like Carey Mullingan in Promising Young Woman, revenge story like PYW but the gurl actually kills the guys, I would love to watch it
There's a really great series on netflix called Dare Me. Its not horror (it's a thriller tho!) but there are a lot of overlaping themes with jennifers body, particularly the nuances and complexities of female friendship in highschool and the sexualization of teen girls it's reaaaaly good have a look if you want to :)
@@madnessends2477 yes, she's a victim that later on perpetuated the abuse she had suffered, making new victims. so what? should we only watch media that features nothing but morally good characters?
the bit about internalized mysogony turning women against themselves and eachother SHOOK me. I remember BEGGING my mom to let me dye my hair because I was blonde haired, blue eyed, and not very smart. I hated that I was so similar to the 'dumb blonde' characters that were usually villainous, and always there to be laughed at.... and I hated myself for being like them. I never even concidered thatlittle girls shouldn't have to feel like that until now.
The character, Anita, expressed they never liked the nickname ”Needy”. They did put in her real name in the script. Other than that you share very interesting thoughts surrounding this movie.
i have a tonne lined up for this year!!! so glad you enjoyed, i'm really loving having other people on for a lil pop of their special interest/expertise :)
the quote "The reality is, I'm hidden amongst all the insanity. Nobody can find me." gives a whole other meaning to the song Through the Trees by the movie's band Low Shoulder...ik the song had a meaning in-universe but now it feels like the female audience now talking to Megan, we know how awful it feels and we wish this hadnt happened to her im interpreting the song on a total new and emotive level so brb gonna go cry
That last part how there's mostly white male reviewers is something I noticed and... Does anyone have any recommendations for cool female or non-white movie reviewers?
Loved your video! And what you talked about men not liking videos that are supposedly associated with teenage girls, reminds of what Bo Burnham and 8th grade. He talked about how that film is about his experience as an adult man having anxiety everytime he has to do a comedy gig - and 8th grade is about a movie about a preteen girl going through anxiety.
Really good video. Looking back recently on how easily I dismissed so many female celebrities (Britney, Janet included. Hell, Monica Lewinsky too) as whatever they were claimed to be by the media/those in power due to a mixture of naivete, disinterest, and internalized misogyny has been horribly eye opening. It's really awful to think how easily women could be blacklisted/targeted/maligned to an audience that (like me back then) weren't interested enough to really suss out the truth, and were too inundated with vicious female stereotypes to know when we were being fed one. I hope those days are over and they can get their justice and their well-deserved comebacks. Hopefully blind trust in racist, patriarchal systems is at its end. I owe a lot of female celebrities a major apology
I have always related to heavily to this movie and I really just thought it was because my name is Jennifer. This video has truly broken down the way it relates to trauma for me, and it's been ✨MINDBLOWING✨ today. That, and fully breaking down the level of absolute misogyny. I'm shook 😶
A video doing a deep dive on Jennifer’s Body and its context will always have my appreciation. Genuinely good movies marketed at teen girls seem to be indistinguishable from bad or mediocre ones for a lot of reviewers. It makes one wonder what kind of teen girl movie (if any at all) they would deem “worthy.”
Well this is the second time I've been told Jennifer's Body was not what I would have thought it was. Yeah they definitely screwed up the marketing campaign.
"male perspectives are the default, unless otherwise specified" *so true!!* it also ties in with "tomboys" generally being viewed (by men/by the patriarchy) in a neutral (if not positive) way and "girly" boys generally being viewed in a negative (or even downright repulsive) one. masculine things become the ideal, the norm, while femininie things become secondary - and therefore lesser or inferior. (unless in a specifically sexy or objectifying etc context)
I've since come to terms with why I haven't reacted like other guys at what's supposed to be "hot" for cismale guys (turns out I'm just on the ace/aro range, no biggie), but I remember watching this movie on rental (it didn't even make theatres in Sweden) and wondering why everyone was saying it was awful, because I thought it was a fascinating, good movie and Megan Fox was in fact pretty darn good in it. Friend of mine has about the same opinion, though he's not ace like me, he's just fairly secure in his personality.
I'd love to hear you talk and analyse how the internet treats Brie larson and captain marvel, I think that would be interesting! and would love to hear you talk more about the handmaiden omg
I've seen this video a while back in my recommended and saved it in my "watch later" playlist, and boy I'm glad I did. This video was truly amazing and so well explained by the both of you. I've truly enjoyed it and I like how one of the underlying theme in it is that awareness takes its time. I'm glad to live in an era where we realized and decided it was time people were aware of issues which had been swept under the rug for so long.
please make a video about all those iconic "chick flicks" you mentioned at the end being universally loathed by straight male critics. i loved your take on jennifer's body and meghan's ridiculously unfair treatment and i know you'll make some very interesting points.
A couple months old on the comment here, but yeah. Lindsay Ellis points out in her series on the films how a) Fox's character has a whole lot more going on, plot- and character-wise, than our intended protagonist, among her diagetic issues being that she isn't taken seriously because of how she looks, while the camera framing and visual language doesn't take her seriously for anything but her looks and b) there is SOMETHING, I don't know what, but something about Michael Bay having her character be named MIKAYLa BAYnes. She also touches on a subject that Dan Olson also has a whole video on, how anyone who would use Sam Witwickey as their presumed audience identification character kinda... really has to hold their audience in contempt.
In the whole metoo movement, I'm having a hard time with people 'suddenly waking up' to how women in the industry have been treated. Like we've been ridiculed for the longest time and now we have to be happy that they chose to acknowledge it themselves.
Loved the video! I have an unrelated question, would you be interested in making a video about male anti heros vs female anti heros? I noticed that people like these types of male characters sooo much but when it comes to the female version its suddenly "idk i dont like her". Yeah no shit, sherlock! I guess in a way it applies to jennifer? I think people want women to be likeable all of the time, i think seeing a video from you about that topic it would be cool! I hope you can get around it.
Internalized misogyny: This gets absorbed by us trans women as well, and we get internalized transphobia as well. Women fighting together are soooo much stronger! Remembering that us fighting each other (unless we're actually competing for the same thing lol), is helping those who want to keep us "in our places". Just this trans girl's thoughts P.S. I was still closeted when the bad treatment of Megan Fox happened, and as usual the true inner part of me was appalled and taking notes... I've always been hyper sensitive to how women are treated (which of course makes HUGE sense now lol), and it is so discouraging in a conservative area. Anyone, especially someone who looked "male", sticking up for women was immediately shamed, which of course drove me deeper into the closet. People who appeared to be women faced the same casual privileged dismissal that happens when misogyny reigns supreme in a social space. At least the world is SLOWLY changing. All together we can continue this trend, maybe accelerate it even
it's so messed up how a letter like that could ruin someone's career....it's clearly gross and spiteful, it sounds like the insults a man throws at a woman after she denies him sex... hopefully people would react differently now but idk
I saw this movie in theatres when it was released and so thoroughly enjoyed it I bought it (I own maybe 5 movies? I almost never watch a movie more than once) as soon as I could. I remember seeing scene when she gets in the van after the bar burns down and the visceral feeling it gave me. And that you could tell that Needy (on some level) recognized what was happening and felt powerless to stop it, and that Jennifer was in shock at that moment. And then everything that followed. The complexity that came in the wake of that, the complexity of Needy and Jennifer's relationship before that and after it and during it; it just wasn't something you got from major releases at the time, especially for female characters. And I also knew immediately that it was going to flop. I was really sad about that, I'm happy this movie is finding its audience now and getting the appreciation and thought it deserves.
Honestly I can't wait for Megan Fox to have a full come back
Depending how this year goes, 2021 could be it. She’s got a lot of films that she started filming in 2020. Fingers crossed
Michael Bay sabotaged her career. She was better than those movies.
I loved her in the Machine Kelly video , I honestly believe that she will and KILL IT!
@@Molly-ml1wn Michael Bay sabotaged his own career , and I hope Ronan Farrow does a piece on him !
We
As someone who has been behind the scenes in movies, I GUARENTEE that letter was 100% Michael Bay. NO LOW LEVEL CREW MEMBER WOULD SAY THAT SHIT EVER!!!! They would NEVER get hired by anyone else ever again cause an actor would say "no I don't want people lying on me" and their manager would zip them out of their faster than the director could fire the crew member! And his later statements cement that for me. He has a god complex, he hated her for not worshiping him and made her pay for it. And he reveled in it.
Definitely! Hate that man
It 100% reads like his own letter written after having his ego even slightly dented by her open and honest comments. He probably wouldn't mind her saying he was a dictator on set but calling him awkward, something that does not paint him as a powerful, confident and masculine man, resulted in him taking his deep insecurities and targeting her for it.
@@rosiejl2798 you really understand a man when his ego is threatened, it all comes spilling out.
It reads like from a position of entitlement an ego, like who in his crew would have that but him.
I worked as a technician in the theatre during college and we would never ever trash the actors to their faces (unless we were really good friends with them). We would never say anything negative about the actors to the director unless they were doing something unsafe. But generally we kept our opinions about the actors to ourselves and didn't share them outside of the technician circle. So it definitely does feel odd that "crew" members were signing off on this letter and claiming to have written it
it's not scary because it's "all just special effects"???? did they want real people to die onscreen? what
It's scary because it could happen to any of us (plain rape and murder). It doesn't matter if there are many special effects or no, right?
Of course "difficult to work with" is mostly a major career obstacle for women; for men, it's part of the "difficult genius" mystique.
you are absolutely not wrong
And everybody's on board until he starts "acting gay"
It reminds me of Tenet, a film with timelines that are so genuinely misleading and chaotic was hailed by majority a success, but little women with 2 parallel timelines with very obvious different colour gradings was considered confusing, with a male (Nolan) directing the former and a woman (Gerwig) directing the latter
@@sorel7342 didn’t his wife get recorded saying that she lied about that and was actually abusing him? I can’t speak for the rest of it but that part in particular is misrepresented
@@ef1876 wasn’t that recording faked or if not do you know where it exists? Because I’ve heard people mention it, but i haven’t been able to find it, and the court docs indicated that some other stuff from depp’s side isn’t true so it’s confusing
I love how lately so many people are coming to her defense and apologizing or calling out the horrible way she was treated. Same with Kristian Stewart.
Yes
I think how Kristian Stewart was treated was because of those god-awful Twilight movies. I mean, teen and tween girls loved them and other very young people liked them. Those of us who are life-long horror movie fans would have only liked them as B-movies are comedies. It might have been how her character was written or how she was directed, but if I heard Kristian Stewart in those movies was a barely animated animatronic doll, I would have said "Oh! Not a terrible actress! A great animatronic doll!" And, to be honest, the Twilight movies are still my only exposure to her actual existance. So, I know nothing to defend against that notion.
@@That80sGuy1972 You should watch her embody Joan Jett on
the movie The Runaways (2010), she did an amazing job :) I couldn't believe she was the same actress from Twilight lol so I blame it on the directions she was given. Besides, nobody pinned her co-star as a bad actor during that time, even though his character is equally awkward to watch (he himself said it million times in interviews) so there's that.
Sarah Z did a thorough analysis on this phenomenon: czcams.com/video/l4QEFLhlh-Y/video.html
@@lina.7954 Also she was in a movie 4 years before Twilight called 'Speak' where she is amazing. Especially since her character is selectively mute through out the movie, so she has to carry the movie in her expressions.
@@Darkrose517 thanks for the recommendation! I'll check it out :D
everything that happened to Megan Fox is genuinely horrifying. i'm 15 and in 10th grade, the same age Megan was when she did the waterfall scene, and i feel sick about it. it's so shitty to think that they did that to a young girl.
my heart sank when I heard how young she was
Yea. I’m a 14 year old girl and in my mind I know that 15 is obviously very young, especially for a girl being instructed to perform in the way that Megan Fox was. But it didn’t really click for me until Rowan said that Megan was in tenth grade when the film was shot. Tenth grade. That’s only a year older than I am right now. I’m horrified.
You've gotta slip into a bikini and dance under a waterfall, now Peyt. Put it up on CZcams
@@MechaJutaro I know you're a troll. But damn, you have no integrity, do you? Making sexual comments about a minor, great job. I'm sure your parents are so proud.
@@MechaJutaro Even if you're joking, this is horrible. Saying that to a minor...yikes. You should just stay away from people.
She was 15 man that's a kid that a full on child and they dressed her in a bikini and paraded her for men to drool over. A child.
Who'd have thunk that men in positions of power are pedophiles. Not me no siree
At least they didn't show her with alcohol!
/s
michael could easily be good friends with weinstein, birds of a feather
@Jessica Buttgereit Bad Boys 2, which the video is talking about, came out when she was 17 which means she was younger during the filming. Not sure where you're getting 23.
@Jessica Buttgereit I’m very sorry, but you’re very much still a child at ages 16 and 15. You’re barely even an adult at 18 and 19. As a teen, you’re still developing, maturing, and living under the authority of adults. Actually, your brain doesn’t even fully develop until you’re 25.
I hate how we are taught to hate women just for existing and not being perfect. When I was little it was so easy and popular to hate women like Taylor Swift, Kristen Stewart, and Megan fox and that sad thing is I had no idea why I didn't like them, I just saw all the hate they got in the media and thought it was correct. It was all so clearly sexism and I can't believe I didn't know it.
The hate people gave Taylor Swift was unreal. What, she made love songs? Like 90% of musicians already did? How dare she.
Ikr people have always treated Tay Tay like SHIT and I have never understood why
You say while most films, especial action films revolve around killing men in the most brutal of ways and the bad guys usual are just that... bad ''guys''.
Truuue
@@satangavemeataco419 I mean, most movies are just... about men, especially action movies. A lot of them don't even pass the low bar of the bechdel test
Dudes hated the movie cause they came to leer at Fox’s exploited body, not to have their dudebro exploitation of women’s bodies commented on in a negative light.
Yep. This exactly
I'll also add her literally eviscerating the dude-bros and then feasting on their entrails.
*edit spelling
@@adorabell4253 do you think sexual violence is feminists when its directed at male victims? Did you think Midsommar was empowering too? 🙄
@@madnessends2477 Where the hell did you get any commentary on feminism from these comments?
@@madnessends2477 you clearly did not pay attention to this video
I do like Jennifer's Body but as an Asian woman re-watching it in recent years, I don't like the movie using some racist jokes regarding Thai food smelling and Chinese nail technicians.... and how they treat the exchange student. And Diablo Cody talking about how the Thai food joke is one of her fave jokes in one of the interviews in recent years.... not a good look.
seconding this
Yeah in some ways the movie is VERY 2009, the quippy writing style that worked well for Juno didn't work as well for Jennifer's Body, and certainly wouldn't work if it were being made today.
@@margaretcummings4146 Yeah, like I would have loved the movie if it weren't for those jokes. As entertaining as the movie is, it takes me out of the movie every time characters say those things and I'm reminded of how othered I am as an Asian woman and for this white woman to write that joke thinking it's actually funny.
Agreed
Yes! This is my biggest problem with the film, which to be honest I do not like overall. I can't put my finger on it, but something about it just doesn't quite work. Like how @Margaret Cummings pointed out that the quippy dialogue style that worked so well in Juno somehow didn't translate in Jennifer's Body despite it being the same writer; I can't figure out if it was the writing, the editing, the acting/on screen chemistry, or some combination of factors, but like with the dialogue, you can feel the whole film trying so hard but falling flat. But I could probably get past all those issues and maybe give it a mediocre rating if it wasn't for the jokes. 98% of the jokes are racist, homophobic, sexist, etc. punching down jokes. And they aren't even creative or original offensive jokes at that. Those jokes should bar the movie from being called a feminist film like some people are trying to claim it is. Feminism that isn't intersectional isn't really feminism, and white feminism needs to die already.
I can't believe that in more recent interviews with Diablo Cody, I think for the 10th anniversary a few years ago, she said she wouldn't change anything about that film. Like really in 10 years you haven't grown at all or learned anything and would still stand behind your boring ass offensive jokes?
I’m so here for Megan Fox being celebrated and apologized to. I was always so frustrated at the treatment she got back in the day. She was a good actress who everyone treated as strictly eye candy
Diablo Cody deserves a collective apology as well. I remember the media being full of negative comments about her body, her past as a sex worker, blah blah blah and all of that as evidence that she was overrated and whatever. It was awful the way she was torn down.
Not that she deserve any of those vile comments, but did SHE ever apologize for writing racist Asian jokes in Jennifer's Body?
I think she's made jokes in a few of her movies and shows that she DOES need to apologize for. The mainstream media never cared about those though and attacked her for her dialogue style when it's honestly not that different to Whedon's and he literally abuses his actors.
That is to say, Hollywood owes her an apology and she owes the people one.
@@adoresessy101 I'll be honest, it's been years since I've seen it and I don't remember those instances specifically. But it does sound to me like something Jennifer or any of the other unsavory characters would say, with the purpose of showing them to be flawed characters. I think it should be noted that Karyn Kusama directed the film, and would have removed any anti-asian sentiment that offended her or she didn't see serving a purpose to the story. I could be entirely wrong, but I think that if DC wrote racist jokes into the script, they were from the point of view of the characters (who are mostly, aside from Needy and her bf, very bad people), not from DC's pov herself.
@@amandamarinovich6164 yes but then she said those jokes were some of her favorites. Meaning she found racist jokes funny, not offensive to show character flaws.
She is overrated. But that's because she's working in a system that would rather talk up one female screenwriter than make room for more female screenwriters.
what’s wild is when Jennifer’s Body was released I WAS the target audience in age gender preferences ect, but I had no idea because of the marketing and it was videos like this that made me realise it was worth watching. It’s a modern cult classic but the problem with that niche appeal is the attention often comes too late and I feel genuinely mad that for years the only projection of Megan Fox I saw was the version marketing and transformers wanted people to see.
The way people treated/treat Megan just makes me sick. No one should be treated like that.
Same. Ten mins in and it's so difficult to keep watching.
I don't think I've sad catty things about her... but I sure have for other women.
It never occurred to me that I did NOT know the facts.
This video and your comment have changed my perspective. Time for me to change.
Thank you.
The main point is that Media wanted her to be the sex symbol of the decade similarly to Marilyn Monroe and Angelina Jolie. They wanted her to be like those ladies because she is similarly to them uniquely beautiful. Comparing fairly unexperienced Fox to such movie icons is quite detrimental for her. People definitely wanted more from her and viewed her as an actress for male gaze when she didn't deliver it outstandingly she was rejected. Hollywood didn't turn that narrative to show that she is a person who plays a character but unfortunately she was mostly sexualized in movies especially directed by Michael Bay (he still didn't learn his lesson he doesn't treat female characters as people but sexy love interest with no personality whatsoever). It's Hollywood that failed Megan Fox and put great expectations on her. I think that people at that time weren't prepared for such a movie hence now that we get more of them Jennifer's Body was discovered. Movies made by women with actresses like for example Birds of Prey and the fantabulous emancipation of one Harley Quinn can be made because there is an audience who watches them.
I agree with everything and just want to point out how the effects of those same expectations on Marilyn and Angelina really speak volumes. They were treated the same Angelina was also very very young and it affected them tremendously, so even if one may consider Megan was too young to hold up to what was being asked of her, if we look at all the others, it's hurtful and sometimes devastating for all the women that were put under that gaze and expected to fill that role, we should be aware of it always and not only for teenage actresses because we have proof that its harmful for the women who are asked to go through this even if they later succeed in de-atached themselves from this ...trope? idk.
why is it that any time there is an attractive female actress they are automatically given the label of a "sex symbol" nobody does the same for men.
Unfortunately this is how the industry treats young women. I do remember seeing interviews with Megan Fox saying that, she doesn't like when women are pitied against each other. And as for me looking back on my thoughts on Megan Fox i just thought she was pretty and not a great actress. But now looking back on my thoughts, i was an idiot and didn't understand how the industry treated young women. I hope Megan Fox makes a comeback and people think more critically about the industry.
My sister also likes to talk about how Megan Fox wasn't a great actresses....which I never really had much to say over the matter. She's in very few things to begin with and horribly type casted.
My sister loves to point out when a woman is a bad actress and shits on them for only being liked for their looks.
But when I say Channing Tatume is a horrible actor. She has nothing to say because she's the one that likes him for his looks 😂
@@greeneyesgirl467 even in the dvd commentary the directors are like in multiple times of the movie go "that should be the poster" or "we wanted to use that there"
It’s so funny you’re posting this now - I just read an absurdly condescending article in a mainstream Canadian news publication that basically was a thinly veiled excuse for a 40+ year old man to complain about Megan Fox and her boyfriend being publicly affectionate on social media. As our culture continues to evolve and we revisit these unfairly maligned female figures like Britney Spears, Janet Jackson, and even Stephenie Meyer - we NEED to have a conversation about the way we have, and clearly are STILL treating Megan Fox.
I like how the trailer has a "come and watch horny boys" thing to it and u watch it and it's such a good film.
Meyer didn't handle anything non-white too well... Kind of a bummer to realise this after so many years defending her so much.
@@pantarhey540 Oh, totally agreed! I’d say Meyer‘s treatment of indigenous peoples and cultures is one of the most galling of her many, many missteps. It displays a profound level of ignorance, entitlement, and privilege, and it’s very much not worth defending.
That said, the way Meyer herself was treated and discussed during the heyday of anti-Twilight discourse was totally despicable. “Criticisms” of her, and her writing, were often thinly veiled and extremely sexist personal attacks, with many people disparaging her religion, intelligence, skill, and making unfounded judgements about her character, and frankly, worth, as a person. I highly recommend Lindsay Ellis’s video called “Dear Stephenie Meyer,” it examines the issue in a thorough, academic, and empathetic, way.
Thank you for bringing up Twilight’s race issues actually - they’re even more upsetting in retrospect every time I am reminded that the actual real life Quileute people are still publicly crowdfunding to move their community out of a disaster zone and to better, safer, higher ground.
(This is called the “Quileute Move To Higher Ground” initiative. Everybody please support if you can.)
Certainly a celebrity writer of Meyer’s profile could be a great deal of help to the Quileute people in that situation. She could contribute some of her vast monetary wealth, most of which she made on books and films appropriating the Quileute name and misrepresenting their culture. Or she could use her large public platform, and legions of adoring fans, to help draw attention to the cause.
Despite how effective this could be, she has decidedly remained silent on the issue. Not even so much as a retweet or social media share. That even after using them to build her fortune, she won’t spend a penny of it to help them, I think, says more about her character than anything she ever wrote in the Twilight books, and it is absolutely worthy of criticism.
My point in invoking her name here in the first place was not to diminish that, but rather to acknowledge that the tone and tenor of public discussion and critique of Meyer, and her work, was consistently tainted by sexism and misogyny. Mainstream Twilight discourse didn’t spend time deeply considering the ethics of appropriating indigenous cultures - it either hid itself behind a disingenuous veneer of ‘concern,’ (“the relationship is problematic / unhealthy,” “Bella is a bad role model,”) or was outright “Stephenie Meyer bad.” This reminds me of what Feminist writer Jo Freeman would call “Trashing.”
“It is not disagreement, it is not conflict, it is not opposition. These are perfectly ordinary phenomena which, when engaged in mutually, honestly and not excessively, are necessary to keep an organism or organization healthy and active… Trashing is a particularly vicious form of character assassination which amounts to psychological rape. It is manipulative, dishonest and excessive. It is occasionally disguised by the rhetoric of honest conflict, or covered up by denying that any disapproval exists at all. But it is not done to expose disagreements or resolve differences. It is done to disparage and destroy. Whatever methods are used, trashing involves a violation of one's integrity, a declaration of one's worthlessness, and an impugning of one's motives. In effect, what is attacked is not one's actions, or one's ideas but one's self.”
@@B.Arthur
Hello Braden Lock,
We watch the same videos here on youtube: Lindsay Ellis and Contrapoints offered some thoughtful insights, Sarah Z covered the topic with great care... I understand why you defend Steph this much, but sadly enough I grew up in an uninformed environment, and Meyer's cliches happen to trigger something nasty inside of me.
Civilized (genius) and non white, have always been portrayed as a mismatch. The clash between white civilization and the non white's primitive attempts at this civilization have often been the topic of anti-emancipatory humor. I happen to be situated in a brown body with an impulsive "dog brain" (ADHD). Despite the learning difficulties I got a philosophy degree cum laude last year, but no matter the overcompensation, the reality of being on this specific intersection induces some guilt in me.
Am I reinforcing stereotypes?
You know, the stereotypes that Stephie likes to rub all over the pages and force into the movies? I respect Meyer. I don't owe her work any repect though. It got in my teens, when I read it... a few times... and the books started falling apart... because I wouldn't stop rereading it.
Won't reread it. The random rule to instantly make vampires very pale, the fights with the movie director concerning a black vampire, the impulsive, physical abuse coming from the non white creatures etc. don't sit right with me. Especially after falling in love with her! The cheesy escapism that fueled the naive fantasies of 12 year old me... aaaah what a weird phase that was!
It's not escapism anymore. It's white escapism, or neurotypical escapism, or maybe escapism for anyone but me. It hits my reality: it violates my integrity, t declares my worthlessness, what is attacked here, is the credibility of my existence.
“Within these perspectives,
misrecognition shows not just
a lack of due respect.
It can inflict a grievous wound,
saddling its victims with a crippling self-hatred.
Due recognition is not just a courtesy we owe people.
It is a vital human need.”
Charles Taylor on The Politics of Recognition
Excuse my impulsivity.
Just like my blackness, it's the nasty that I can't wash off.
Meyer is underrated. Twilight & The Host have their issues, but also have some interesting ideas. But "The Chemist" is great! I put it up there with James Bond/Jason Bourne.
it's so weird to hear that people disliked this movie due to lack of sexiness, because I remember when it came out I bounced off it specifically because of how oversexualized the marketing made it seem
I never wanted to watch it because the marketing (and title) make it seem like it’s just an excuse to ogle at Meagan Fox. It was so over the top in the sexualisation, I assumed there was no plot underneath. It’s no wonder the audience who bought tickets were disappointed
People just wanted to see what they were shown in the marketing. If I went to see a movie that was marketed as a horror movie but turned out to be a kids' movie instead, I'd be disappointed too.
Megan Fox's Michaela was the most well written character in any of the Transformers movies and it went completely over most of our heads, because she was just THAT sexualised that it drowned everything out
1000% agree. She had way more character than sam who was just running around screaming.
Lindsay Ellis discusses this very idea in one her videos. I highly recommend it.
I saw it as a child young enough to see past these things, thank-god, she was the only good thing in the movie.
'Its still Twilight for girls. Twilight for gay girls.' *zooms in to face*
I still cannot believe that Bay's letter was ever considered a measured and/or appropriate response to Megan's interview. Like, I would love to know how some people's minds work, I'm so baffled.
Amanda the jedi has a video about Jennifer's body too. It's really good, but she moreso talks about how it has become appreciated after it's initial release. This video focuses more on the content of the movie, so I like that I can recommend both of these because they don't overlap.
i love that they don't overlap - i had to stop myself watching amanda's video until after i'd edited mine because i didn't want to accidentally copy any of her ideas/be filled with a deep sense of pointlessness at someone else doing a video about the same movie better than me haha
Yhara zayd also has a great video about it too though they branch out from just talking about Jennifer's Body.
She's really great. I love both videos.
Chris stuckmann's review of the movie was great as well. Also I've heard the new movie freaky has a similar thing going for it. But yeah I like how the film is both a time capsule of 2009 and also how ahead of its time it is. One thing I heard about in when you were talking about listing to monster stories in horror generally the charecters that have had sex are often the ones that die first where as with cherry falls that trope is re versed and is about a killer who kill the virgins of the school so the kids there are in a rush to get laid so they don't die and in jenifers body it's important she was a girl because I doubt a guy seducing a girl into places like the woods or in a house that's not fully built in a part of town that's not being developed yet. I doubt that would work but since the guys that jenifer is targeting care more about getting laid then anything which is really clever.
megan fox has been done so dirty by interviewers, the media, people she’s worked with, and just the public in general. she seems like such a smart, capable woman and it’s a damn shame that people can’t look past sexism and misogyny.
Like how Stewart redefined herself and showed she had more talent than her more infamous roles led many to believe, I think Fox has potential to really shine... If she got the chance to work with a script by Sorkin or another writer who can write fast smart and witty dialogue, I think she’d reveal that she could hold her own. Too many times I've seen insanely skilled and intelligent actors get typecast as basically “superhot mannequin” because they are only viewed through the male gaze. But I love seeing what happens when they get the chance to show off their skills with intelligent scripts.
Charlize Theron in Monster comes to mind. I'm surprised it isn't mentioned in the video.
@@lina.7954 Absolutely.
I remember reading a post on tumblr ages ago: “I’m not like other girls, so don’t treat me like how you treat other girls”. The concept of ‘I’m not like other girls’ can also be seen as a way to separate and distance oneself from the profile of victims of sexual assault, one that is modest, not sexual, and doesn’t “ask for it”. However this is a logical fallacy, as sexual assault is not logical. X was dressed as Y, and did Z risky thing does not equal sexual assault, nor is it warranted. Misogyny in women can be a way of trying to separate yourself to avoid victimizing yourself, but Jennifer’s Body is a way of confronting that by, just like Rowan said, reflecting the mirror back onto that judgement.
this is slightly off topic but i remember how devastating victim blaming was to me and how that tied into my own internalized misogyny. i was molested as a child and had convinced myself that i had to have done something to deserve it, it didn’t matter that i was only 8, by the time i was 13 i was 100% convinced it was somehow my fault. looking back, it breaks my heart but now i can understand where those ideas came from and i can begin changing the way i view myself and my trauma. i think it’s important we continue to have conversations about how victim blaming ties into “not like other girls” phases and internalized misogyny
I remember seeing Shia talking about how they got a model to replace Megan in the transformers movies cause models are used to being told to be sexy and know how to move their bodies for cameras. After that interview knew Shia was gross and the set had to have been toxic.
Honestly I DESPISE the way people and the industry have treated Megan Fox, espically because Jennifers Body shows that she has some AMAZING range acting wise.
She didn't deserve to get black listed just cause she didn't kiss Bay's shoes.
As a man who was a teenage boy when the film came out I really appreciate this revisiting.
I remember myself and my male friends being SO hype about the film because of Megan Fox and the marketing. We didn't hate the film or fox from what I remember. Although I remember personally feeling some disdain for her as her career progressed and in the light of the transformers "revelations."
I feel quite bad for jumping on the bandwagon even if I never went after her myself. Like so many women before she was forced into a particular kind of role and presentation and then actively vilified for it. It's disgusting and it needs to stop.
Thanks again for the video.
When do we get a movie with Megan Fox and Kristen Stewart together?
When alf season 5 comes out!
I really like the explanation of how making a plot a "girl" thing just takes a female character and how neutral things are "male" by default. I think I was 7 when I realized that male was the cultural default when my guy friend would expect me to play boy games but would not be ok with playing girl games, and when I learned to draw from a book where the default cartoon was male and you added things on for female cartoons
I hope Megan Fox comes back to acting, we did her wrong. I was 15 when the movie came out and very much a closeted bisexual filled with internalized misogyny, I wish I would have known better
it's so striking in those interview quotes how she was absolutely screaming for help and everyone not only ignored but used it to push her down further
I personally didn't like this movie but it really sucks that it flopped because of the marketing. I think people should watch it at least once
same, I own it on DVD and would absolutely encourage friends to give it a go. But I dont think I'd watch it again on my own
As a 28 year old enby who identified as male for over half my life, I have greatly enjoyed, and continue to enjoy, many a movie aimed at teenage girls. Many of them, like the Princess Diaries, remind me of my mom, as we would often watch them together when they played on TV.
jennifer's body to this day is one of my favourite films of all time. It's subtext is way too complex for some of the people who rated it and really needs an good ol' queer womans lens to be enjoyed at full capacity. I think this film also exposes the issue of marketing and 'target audiences' really well. This film and others in the venn diagram of it's genre deserves to be celebrated by the types of people who love it most!
As a lesbian, I quite enjoyed the movie. The scene where Needy and Jennifer kissed is a good scene and made my gay heart squeal!
The way people treated Megan Fox reminded me of the way they treated Britney Spears 😔 Glad these women are starting to get more people on their side.
Yhara zayd has a similar video called “Jennifer’s Body & the Horror of Bad Marketing” that i recommend! i love this movie and i’m so happy that it and Meghan Fox are finally getting the recognition and love that they deserve
honestly, I think the best bit of advertising the movie got was the music video for panic at the disco's new perspective, which actually did a weirdly good job of showing the movie itself, and actually gave me a pretty good idea of what it was.
Michael Bay totally wrote that letter. It's so his voice.
30:22 That’s so toxic of him to express, considering she starred in a movie some years before she got cast in Transformers (someone correct me, but I think it was with the Olsen twins who were big stars back then). Being granted loads of millions to do a movie and the massive push from press that comes along with it, is not the same as being some amazing person who ”turns” people into stars. This man is in dire need of humbling himself, because without all the financial funds he wouldn’t be in that position and that’s down to other people...it’s not a one man’s band to put together such a huge project a movie actually is. Sounds like superority complex the way he had to talk about these actors and his own involvement in ”making them stars” . All of them had been working in the industry before working with him. Take Affleck for example he did ”Good Will Hunting”, which came out before ”Armageddon”. Placed in its right context the statement lacks substance. Shia is obviously not ok, but work wise he even had a big role in ”X-Files”, which clearly must have lead him to other big projects from a very young age. And Will Smith had ”Prince in Bel Air” that had already made him a big name within the industry, way before ”Bad boys”.
Clicking on a Rowan Ellis video and getting some surprise Shonalika content is like biting into a delicious pastry and finding an entire other delicious pastry inside of it.
I remember going down the Megan Fox rabbit hole middle of last year and being disgusted by how she's been treated and the behind the scenes of her movies. She is so much more than she's been pigeon holed and forced into. I'm disgusted how people have treated her and managed to manipulate her image and everything. Megan Fox deserves a come back and one that comes with respect.
✨ some things ✨
1. check the description for content warning info
2. this video was (as suspected) demonetised/running "limited ads" immediately - so if you want to support my videos and have some spare dollars so i can hopefully do this full time soon - www.patreon.com/rowanellis and ko-fi.com/rowanellis
3. hopefully see some of you at the aftershow - looking forward to hearing your thoughts/questions: stereo.com/heyrowanellis
Demonetized and yet I had 5 commercials. You’re great! Thank you for your hard work
@@vic70ria wait really?? i have no idea how, it is literally saying "not suitable for ads" on my account
I remeber seeing the trailer and thinking it was aimed at straight men that think lesbians are hot and not watching it because of that.
I only recently found out its nothing like that and i wold probably enjoy it.
I mean there sure is fanservice in the movie. but it's not the point of the movie.
I loved Jennifer’s Body, and Diablo Cody should be more appreciated.
This movie, and Juno, are amazing and they both cover unique female issues. It’s interesting to see how many people hate on these movies just because they explore femininity in a way that isn’t accepted
Yeah, and all the hate those types of movies receive just prove all the sexism and misoginy they talk about.
2 years later and same thing applies to turning red as well
Ok I just watched Jennifer's body for the first time last night and WOW do I wish I could say sorry to Megan Fox.
My dream is Jennifer's Body become a TV series, the plot is phenomenal and super engaging, an anti-hero like Carey Mullingan in Promising Young Woman, revenge story like PYW but the gurl actually kills the guys, I would love to watch it
Except her victims were innocent. The movie literally turns a rape victim is to a sexual predator herself
There's a really great series on netflix called Dare Me. Its not horror (it's a thriller tho!) but there are a lot of overlaping themes with jennifers body, particularly the nuances and complexities of female friendship in highschool and the sexualization of teen girls it's reaaaaly good have a look if you want to :)
@@madnessends2477 yes, she's a victim that later on perpetuated the abuse she had suffered, making new victims. so what? should we only watch media that features nothing but morally good characters?
@@ihatehumans4264 wasn't SHE an innocent victim as well? and who the hell is saying her becoming a monster is empowering?
the bit about internalized mysogony turning women against themselves and eachother SHOOK me. I remember BEGGING my mom to let me dye my hair because I was blonde haired, blue eyed, and not very smart. I hated that I was so similar to the 'dumb blonde' characters that were usually villainous, and always there to be laughed at.... and I hated myself for being like them. I never even concidered thatlittle girls shouldn't have to feel like that until now.
I really hope that Megan Fox has this amazing career flip where she becomes the Tilda Swinton of her generation.
The character, Anita, expressed they never liked the nickname ”Needy”. They did put in her real name in the script. Other than that you share very interesting thoughts surrounding this movie.
Rosalie's backstory in Twilight also reminds me of that rape revenge thing
Her 10 year reunion interview with Diablo Cody was heartbreaking honestly
Great video as always but particularly thrilled to see Shonalika! More colabs like these please :D
i have a tonne lined up for this year!!! so glad you enjoyed, i'm really loving having other people on for a lil pop of their special interest/expertise :)
the quote "The reality is, I'm hidden amongst all the insanity. Nobody can find me." gives a whole other meaning to the song Through the Trees by the movie's band Low Shoulder...ik the song had a meaning in-universe but now it feels like the female audience now talking to Megan, we know how awful it feels and we wish this hadnt happened to her
im interpreting the song on a total new and emotive level so brb gonna go cry
That last part how there's mostly white male reviewers is something I noticed and...
Does anyone have any recommendations for cool female or non-white movie reviewers?
Seconding this request
Amanda the jedi is f female but she is also white
These aren't quite video essay type movie reviewers but two CZcamsrs that do reaction videos which I find very enjoyable are Trin Lovell and Kennie JD
Kennie J. D
A number of women, occasionally a black person.
Loved your video!
And what you talked about men not liking videos that are supposedly associated with teenage girls, reminds of what Bo Burnham and 8th grade. He talked about how that film is about his experience as an adult man having anxiety everytime he has to do a comedy gig - and 8th grade is about a movie about a preteen girl going through anxiety.
I remember you talking really passionately about this on your podcast with Jazza and ever since I've been a hardcore Megan Fox stan
this video has been a long time coming haha
I created a character to be the sacrificial lamb. I’m hidden amongst the insanity. Nobody can find me.
.......
That really gives me the chills.
Really good video. Looking back recently on how easily I dismissed so many female celebrities (Britney, Janet included. Hell, Monica Lewinsky too) as whatever they were claimed to be by the media/those in power due to a mixture of naivete, disinterest, and internalized misogyny has been horribly eye opening. It's really awful to think how easily women could be blacklisted/targeted/maligned to an audience that (like me back then) weren't interested enough to really suss out the truth, and were too inundated with vicious female stereotypes to know when we were being fed one. I hope those days are over and they can get their justice and their well-deserved comebacks. Hopefully blind trust in racist, patriarchal systems is at its end. I owe a lot of female celebrities a major apology
I have always related to heavily to this movie and I really just thought it was because my name is Jennifer.
This video has truly broken down the way it relates to trauma for me, and it's been ✨MINDBLOWING✨ today.
That, and fully breaking down the level of absolute misogyny. I'm shook 😶
A video doing a deep dive on Jennifer’s Body and its context will always have my appreciation.
Genuinely good movies marketed at teen girls seem to be indistinguishable from bad or mediocre ones for a lot of reviewers. It makes one wonder what kind of teen girl movie (if any at all) they would deem “worthy.”
Well this is the second time I've been told Jennifer's Body was not what I would have thought it was.
Yeah they definitely screwed up the marketing campaign.
the handmaiden is the best, i’m sorry, i don’t make the rules
I saw a clip of it before, and I wanted to watch it, but I couldn’t find it. Now I get to watch it
I legitimately went to the theater solo to watch this as a senior in high school. Loved it.
The toe scandal was somethign that hit me strongly when i was a girl. The expectation is for women to be absolutely gorgeous... head... to toe.
The marketing team for that movie should serve jail time.
"male perspectives are the default, unless otherwise specified" *so true!!* it also ties in with "tomboys" generally being viewed (by men/by the patriarchy) in a neutral (if not positive) way and "girly" boys generally being viewed in a negative (or even downright repulsive) one. masculine things become the ideal, the norm, while femininie things become secondary - and therefore lesser or inferior. (unless in a specifically sexy or objectifying etc context)
oh my gosh i WAS NOT expecting that shonalika appearance, nice
I love this crossover! Shonalika's channel is amazing, as is yours!
idk why but when she said “twilight for gay girls” i absolutely broke
I've since come to terms with why I haven't reacted like other guys at what's supposed to be "hot" for cismale guys (turns out I'm just on the ace/aro range, no biggie), but I remember watching this movie on rental (it didn't even make theatres in Sweden) and wondering why everyone was saying it was awful, because I thought it was a fascinating, good movie and Megan Fox was in fact pretty darn good in it. Friend of mine has about the same opinion, though he's not ace like me, he's just fairly secure in his personality.
Did not expect to see Shonalika in this video but was so happy to! Their channel is so awesome and highly underrated everyone needs to check it out!
I'd love to hear you talk and analyse how the internet treats Brie larson and captain marvel, I think that would be interesting! and would love to hear you talk more about the handmaiden omg
Btw the film The Handmaiden is based on a book called Fingersmith by Sarah Waters and I highly recommend it as well
I saw an english period drama with this exact plot
@@blitva1 because its based on the same book.
I've seen this video a while back in my recommended and saved it in my "watch later" playlist, and boy I'm glad I did. This video was truly amazing and so well explained by the both of you. I've truly enjoyed it and I like how one of the underlying theme in it is that awareness takes its time. I'm glad to live in an era where we realized and decided it was time people were aware of issues which had been swept under the rug for so long.
please make a video about all those iconic "chick flicks" you mentioned at the end being universally loathed by straight male critics. i loved your take on jennifer's body and meghan's ridiculously unfair treatment and i know you'll make some very interesting points.
Seeing this pop up made my month, I have loved Jennifer’s Body since it came out and it’s always made me so sad it didn’t do well.
So great to see Shonalika here! This is a fantastic video Rowan. Love seeing the rise in Jennifer’s Body discourse!!
Why Megan Fox's character wasn't the main characters in transformers will always confuse me.
A couple months old on the comment here, but yeah.
Lindsay Ellis points out in her series on the films how a) Fox's character has a whole lot more going on, plot- and character-wise, than our intended protagonist, among her diagetic issues being that she isn't taken seriously because of how she looks, while the camera framing and visual language doesn't take her seriously for anything but her looks and b) there is SOMETHING, I don't know what, but something about Michael Bay having her character be named MIKAYLa BAYnes.
She also touches on a subject that Dan Olson also has a whole video on, how anyone who would use Sam Witwickey as their presumed audience identification character kinda... really has to hold their audience in contempt.
In the whole metoo movement, I'm having a hard time with people 'suddenly waking up' to how women in the industry have been treated. Like we've been ridiculed for the longest time and now we have to be happy that they chose to acknowledge it themselves.
Loved the video! I have an unrelated question, would you be interested in making a video about male anti heros vs female anti heros? I noticed that people like these types of male characters sooo much but when it comes to the female version its suddenly "idk i dont like her". Yeah no shit, sherlock! I guess in a way it applies to jennifer? I think people want women to be likeable all of the time, i think seeing a video from you about that topic it would be cool! I hope you can get around it.
Loved the Shonalika collab! (and the entire video obvs)
Internalized misogyny:
This gets absorbed by us trans women as well, and we get internalized transphobia as well.
Women fighting together are soooo much stronger! Remembering that us fighting each other (unless we're actually competing for the same thing lol), is helping those who want to keep us "in our places".
Just this trans girl's thoughts
P.S. I was still closeted when the bad treatment of Megan Fox happened, and as usual the true inner part of me was appalled and taking notes... I've always been hyper sensitive to how women are treated (which of course makes HUGE sense now lol), and it is so discouraging in a conservative area. Anyone, especially someone who looked "male", sticking up for women was immediately shamed, which of course drove me deeper into the closet. People who appeared to be women faced the same casual privileged dismissal that happens when misogyny reigns supreme in a social space.
At least the world is SLOWLY changing. All together we can continue this trend, maybe accelerate it even
Thank you for introducing us to Shonalika. What an brilliant human being! Definitely checking out their channel. 💁🏼♂️😘
Amazing video as always Rowan 😁 I've been meaning to watch Jennifer's Body for years so I'm definitely going to watch it as soon as I can now
Yay! Amazing video, and love Shonalika ♥️ great collab!
amazing video as usual!!!! you're so eloquent and your videos are so well written...here i think you dropped this 👑
I always look forward to your videos, and a Shonalika cameo as well.
Directors sexualize a minor until she is an adult. Solution: Blame the girl!!
Wait, what!!??
"let's be real their gonna do what they want either way" lmao😭😭😭😭
This video was absolutely sensational, and I hope you know how important the work you’re doing is. Thank you for making this content.
it's so messed up how a letter like that could ruin someone's career....it's clearly gross and spiteful, it sounds like the insults a man throws at a woman after she denies him sex...
hopefully people would react differently now but idk
I saw this movie in theatres when it was released and so thoroughly enjoyed it I bought it (I own maybe 5 movies? I almost never watch a movie more than once) as soon as I could. I remember seeing scene when she gets in the van after the bar burns down and the visceral feeling it gave me. And that you could tell that Needy (on some level) recognized what was happening and felt powerless to stop it, and that Jennifer was in shock at that moment. And then everything that followed. The complexity that came in the wake of that, the complexity of Needy and Jennifer's relationship before that and after it and during it; it just wasn't something you got from major releases at the time, especially for female characters. And I also knew immediately that it was going to flop. I was really sad about that, I'm happy this movie is finding its audience now and getting the appreciation and thought it deserves.
Thank you for laying all the facts down. I hope this makes an impact.
That’s a lot to take in. I never knew all of this, so thanks for the deep dive. Hope that we can all learn from this and be better
Just wanted to say I love to put on your videos while I'm writing, your voice is very soothing to listen too.
i am loving the great collabs lately :)
This is spooky timing - literally just finished my 1000th re-watch of Jennifer’s Body and was vibing to the soundtrack when I saw you posted this. 😧
Hey I've been struggling to come out tbh and your videos really help me out and put me at ease. Just wanted to say thanks.