the chronically online state of asexual discourse
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- čas přidán 29. 06. 2024
- Asexual discourse - a tedious internet spam war, or a snapshot of queer history? Guess we’ll find out that and more together… Go to ground.news/Rowan to spot any media bias on the issues you care about most. Save 40% on the Ground News unlimited access Vantage plan with my link to prioritize transparency and inclusivity in the news you consume.
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I was 50 years old when I heard the term asexual. I had never experienced sexual attraction and even kissing repulsed me. I never told anyone how I felt out of shame. Knowing there’s nothing wrong with me has been so freeing. I definitely identify as queer and I’m grateful that my queer friends accept me as such.
that's so wholesome
Same.😅 Not 50 yet but working to get there.
This is such a sweet comment! The shame is literally the worst and sometimes I still experience it. I know what it's like to feel like something is wrong with you, especially when everyone else around you is talking about sex and having it. Finally realizing that nothing is wrong with you is seriously so freeing, as you stated. I'm happy you were able to discover yourself. Finding out what the term asexual meant was one of the best things that ever happened to me. I hope you continue living a wonderful life, stranger! ❤
Hey from a young aroace person! It's always so nice to see the older generation coming to understand new things. It's especially cool when it leads to some of you discovering that you identify with those new things. I'm happy for you. Someday I'll be your age and just as comfortable with my identity. I look forward to that.
Same! Well, I was 54. And it was such a relief to find out that the way I am is a thing, and that there are others like me. When I was in my 20s and 30s I used to try to have relationships because I thought I was supposed to. But I never liked the physical aspect of things. I haven't had any kind of romantic or sexual relationship in over 20 years, and I always thought I was just defective, but I was much happier not trying. Now I feel much more at peace with who I am.
I'm sorry, but why did nobody say "Humping Humpback Whales?"
you're asking the important questions
Humpback Mountain
"Humping 'Backs have a Whale of a Time!"
i immediately thought the same thing, missed oppurtunity
Too easy! 😆
It’s weird that they’re like “aces don’t face discrimination” while discriminating against them
'You're not experiencing anything different that the rest of the world, everyone*else* experiences rape culture' (while justifying abuse of specifically us, because we don't feel attraction at the drop of a hat, so we're too ignorant to have a say in what happens in our bodies?). I feel like bigotry always tries to play the Oh no! We're not the aggressors, you're just too sensitive angle as though abuse is doing the victim some kind of favor :/ It's also weird that they act like they're the ones who are put out over being called out, more than the people who are being oppressed.
Yeah it was an absolute slap in the face to see that quote about how aces shouldn't take up space on suicide hotlines because those spaces should be saved for "people who actually need it" like HELLO?!?!?!?! And then they say aces face no bigotry 🙃🙃🙃
@@cottoncandie761 yea its bully behaviour.
There's no law against you not wanting to fuck. You're not being beheaded for it. Get over yourself.
People downplaying others by saying they don’t face discrimination _is_ discrimination and it’s so wild that they don’t see that.
Speaking as someone who took a long time to come back out as aroace after the ace discourse era of tumblr, I will always be grateful to the trans people who stood by us.
As a straight cis bore who dabbled with a bi person who got very crapped on by the lg part of their community, it's terrible that those communities so much mirror my experiences with political communities; it sucks and I resent it very deeply. I'm glad you've had some allies along the way, I hope more of us can be like that more often.
hell yeah! we are are brothers and sisters at arms
I think a lot of people miss that the exclusionist discourse wasn’t just coming for the aroace community but anyone deemed too much of an “ugly queer” who would hurt respectability politics. Yes, there was a lot of specific ace discourse but those exclusionists were usually also the terfs that want to shun the T in LGBT.
It’s the terf and exclusionist crowd that also started the big q slur because queer is too ambiguous and it makes it harder to define people out of the community when they don’t have to pick a letter
I was completely oblivious to the ace discourse because I wasn't really public about being acespec since I wasn't entirely sure. Eventually I found the tail end of it and was like "wow, people are assholes."
I'm all of the above, so I literally cannot separate my aroace identity from my trans identity. I guess the lesson is, never exclude anyone, because it may turn out to be you all along.
as a asexual person and perhaps someone somewhere on the aromantic spectrum, i think people forget how strongly people feel about sex and romantic relationships. i remember when i told my siblings that i might not want to have sex ever how they thought that was weird or something that was not really rationally and how this came from two very supportive queer people(and one of them were demisexual themselves). or that people want to know what you are up to sexually and how they think its their business. from the time of being a little kid to when you are a grown up people are constantly asking if you are interested in anybody or have a crush or slept with so and so. society thinks its important that you are in a romantic/sexual relationship even if it can be very conservative and weird about those things
allosexuals go absolutely bonkers when they can't get laid and I honestly don't get it lmao, sex is pretty fun but so are lots of things? I will never understand why allo people feel the need for sex on the same level as the need for food.
I really hate people who put a heavy emphasis on this like its the main point and it even had me question if I was just ace but uh no was partly due to having an emotionally unavailable family and that rubbing off on me. But now having a partner I do have those feelings but it rarely goes in the camp of attraction, romance (personally find it cheesy at times) or lust moreso I value emotional connection the most. I feel sorry for the folk who get swept up in thinking that physical attraction and flirting is "love" when it isnt when its only isolated by itself.
I feel every bit of this
I have such distinct memories of elementary school and how I could hardly befriend any of my male classmates because it would come with nonstop teasing from my peers who we must be iN lOvE and dAtInG just by being a girl and boy who enjoyed each other’s company.
I remember constant discussions of crushes and being grilled about revealing mine and being told I was liar when I said I didn’t have a crush. I’d be needled about it as if I was just too shy or secretive instead of honestly not having a crush. I’d either have to just toss out a name or wait until they got bored and moved on, calling me a sore sport or something.
Even when we’re young, everyone around you goes on and on about romance and crushes and the kids in my class in 5th grade even where talking about who they wanted to bang. The aro/ace experience starts early.
Ugh this. It’s so gross this is socially normalized to always know someone’s business. And to assume someone always wants this. It’s harmful to ace people and SA survivors alike.
Folks would rather uphold the sanctity of the label's definition than submit to the fluid and formless human experience
So then what's the point of calling someone straight or gay or bi or pan or cis or trans or nonbinary, then? Why does that matter so damn much if it's just a "fluid and formless human experience"??? Or do you not believe in orientations or genders at all?
Those labels obviously exist and have meaning but they don't (and can't) definitively and completely capture all people and all experiences. I mean even just consider the fact that these are Western words from a particular time. In other cultures they have different ways of understanding gender (e.g. two spirits) and the way that we understand gender/sexuality evolves over time. In 200 years there will likely be different understandings, with different language to match. Labels are social constructs and therefore limited and changeable. They aren't facts handed down from high @thekarret2066
@@thekarret2066 Think of it this way: you already accept that nonbinary exists. Therefore, you've already expanded your definition of gender from the basic 'there are just men and women' to 'people can be whatever gender they are, actually'. So, you've accepted that male and female still exist, while nonbinary, agender and so on, can also exist harmoniously. To some people your open-mindedness towards gender is horrifying. "There are only two genders!!" You're already way ahead of those people.
In the same way, things like genderfluidity, demiboy and demigirl exist. The act of giving them a label 'defines them into a gender box' while at the same time those label strictly define 'experiencing more than one gender'. They're labels all existing harmoniously.
The ability for someone to experience more than one gender or more than one sexuality doesn't mean others stop existing. After all, how can someone say they're fluid between being a man and being a woman if 'man and woman' stop existing?
If you're gay, and you know you're gay, then you're gay. I'm ace, and I know I'm ace, so I'm ace. If one day I experience a change in sexuality, then that doesn't mean I wasn't ace at the time. When I started T, I was _terrified_ that my sexuality would change, because it isn't uncommon for trans people's sexualities to shift when they start HRT. Luckily it never did, but once I accepted that fluidity was just a part of life, that terror went away. Luckily I stayed ace though!
(Unfortunately, when people say 'sexuality/gender is fluid', it gets people's backs up, because at first glance it sounds like a queer version of what bigots say: "You're not really X, you'll grow up and be Normal in the future". But it doesn't mean that. It just means that sexuality and gender is fluid for some people, and being open-minded about it _towards other people_ is good, both for you and for everyone else.)
Ok let's not exaggerate for the sake of "accepting" everyone. Sexual orientation isn't a choice, fluid or changes over time. You're born with your sexual orientation the same way you're born with the genitals you have. Just because your PERCEPTION of your sexuality changes doesn't mean the sexuality itself changes. Who you're attracted to can't change, how much you're attracted to them however can. That however doesn't mean your sexual orientation can change. IT CAN'T 💀
@@thekarret2066 the point is that we still NEED these categories, because society is still very much ruled by patriarchal rules and expectations. They are tools, enabling us to put our experiences into words, build communities, support each other and advocate for each other, but they are not "real" in the mathematical sense. They are social constructs, models, common denominators that allow us to abstract and discuss beyond the individual, and they are there to serve their purpose as long as needed. Ultimately, I wish for a society where people can express themselves however and be with whoever they want, without being ostracized and discriminated against (yes I'm also a gender abolitionist). However, I do understand why a lot of people might disagree with this take, because it is one that can easily be misrepresented and abused by the right/anti-queer/anti-woke etc, who often don't even (want to) understand what a social construct even is... and so on...
For anybody that thinks "well how can you experience medical discrimination for being asexual", picture being a woman that never had interest in sex and imagine needing any kind of ob-gyn exam/checkup/screening... the older you are the worse it is, it gets immensely dehumanizing.
Would you be interested in elaborating? Obviously youre under no obligation, but as an allosexual amab, it is unclear to me what exactly you mean. I guess my central sort of confusion is rooted in the belief that any obgyn visit that is in any way even approaching appropriate should have zero sexual undertones.
Thinking further I guess im assuming youre referring to a blanket discomfort felt in any interactions with others related to that whole region? In which case, what sorts of things might a medical professional do to mitigate this discomfort?
@@tsawy6 no my dude, I am referring to medical attitudes towards "virginity", one of the stupidest concepts thought up by man. And you would assume that in current year 2024 that wouldn't be an issue right? Nope! You get treated as a rare wondrous animal, made of crystal, to be touched only with the lightest touch. No actual in depth exams for you! Only external stuff, no matter if it isn't as useful!
I have been on the cusp of buying a big ol' toy just for the sake of getting rid of this stupidity once and for all 😡
@@tsawy6 I think my reply got eaten by some filter T.T long story short, no, it's not a discomfort about my body. It's about the nonsense idea of "virginity". I have had deadass a medical professional tell me "no we can't do this exam you need, it would deflower you" god I am still so angry
@tsawy6
The usual, people absolutely do not believe you when you say you aren't having straight sex. In my country, women pay extra on private health insurance due to pregnancy being a potential risk factor. Asexual, lesbian and infertile women cannot opt out of this because anyone could just claim to be these things to get out of paying. I can't imagine getting birth control for hormonal health reasons being very easy either in certain places if you're not in a straight relationship.
@@rainpooper7088yep, have to explain to my obgyn that I use bc so I don’t vomit my guts out every month and before she checked under the hood she didn’t think I was telling the truth about not being sexually active at all.
Why on earth are exclusionists not called "ace inhibitors", what are we doing here people
underrated comment
Because that name is too cool to give to a bunch of dweebs who try to suck the fun out of everything
girl djdjddjsj
LMFAO PLS
I adore this term 😂
In person, every single person I’ve ever met will go ‘oh of course aromantic / asexual people are queer!’ Yet on the internet, people want to create strong boxes of queer enough and not queer enough, which ends up being the complete opposite of what the community should be.
That’s not even mentioning how exclusionary of aro so many of ace accepting spaces are- apparently it’s okay to be ace, because ‘we can feel love too!’
Basically. I get off the internet. Aroace people don’t deserve to be debated.
(Edit: yes I know platonic love is just as valuable, my point was that in a lot of online ace spaces people don’t believe that, so they hyper focus on romantic love)
I think what tiny adult me would have wanted in 2016-2017 would have been to have a queer hangout space with other queer people to do social things and organize. By then, I was too far along in my journey of self-discovery and self-acceptance for online ace spaces to really be useful to me - I knew what labels described my experience (completely asexual, completely aromantic), and the overemphasis in ace spaces on "hey, asexual people can be in healthy romantic partnerships, too!" was neither helpful nor particularly affirming to see. Like, I feel love, but not the kind of love those talking points are referring to.
Online is very online. There are so many queer community debates there that you never see in real life. The reality is that online communities are where most people go when they are first figuring their shit out. Definitely was in my case. I did pick up some bad ideas (trans related versus ace related) that evaporated almost immediately upon getting involved with the reality and diversity of the queer community in real life. It's much easier to have these black and white hard line opinions online where it's easy to segregate by belief and micro labels. Much harder in the wild where people mix, have super interesting queer intersections and everything is shades of grey and broad blurred lines.
I do find what you said about the aro/ace divide weird and interesting. I know several aro/ace people, including my son, and one or two not ace but aromantic people. But I don't believe I personally know anyone who is ace but not aro. Not an expert nor do I doubt they exist and are valid, but it doesn't feel common to me. But maybe that's an online thing.
i'm 20, and i've identified as ace since i was about 15. i was super active online and saw all this discourse, and was so scared to mention it to anybody irl out of fear that they'd respond the same way - the first time i ever told anyone, i was drunk at a party (don't drink underage, kids, do as i say not as i do), and just sorta blurted it out bc i'm a chatty drunk lmao. they looked at me and just went "oh, okay, cool. i'm not." and that was the end of it. everybody at that party was queer (we all met at the same youth group lol) and not a single person gave a shit - anybody who has cared, in my experience, was not anybody worth knowing in the first place. the same generally goes for a lot of queer discourse in my experience - as soon as you bring it into reality, you realise how little anyone really cares.
Though labels are meant to help people form connections with others and understand themselves better, I find that they cause too much divide sometimes. People get too caught up on the semantics, caring more about the technical definitions of words rather than why they exist in the first place. I'm a queer woman, but any labels beyond that just don't work for me.
And I think that's, as you said, an internet thing. Too much time to stop and argue. In person labels are, at most, a quick way to generally describe yourself, and then it doesn't matter.
I have the same experience with polyamory. People on the internet tend to be a lot more gatekeepy and bitter. But at the pride parade I saw poly flags, and no one contests me in person when I say/imply that polyamory is queer. Still, I think it's also important to remember that even on the internet, the people saying that asexuality and polyamory isn't queer are just a vocal minority.
it took me an extra four years to admit to myself i was ace because of ace discourse - this stuff really does destroy a self-discovery pipeline
Same. Realized when I was 13 but only accepted when I was 20 because I assumed the people online knew me better than me for some reason
i ended up reconnecting with an old friend years after coming out as ace. upon me coming out to them, they told me that they actually just figured i knew the entire time we were friends, and just didn't mention it because i seemed uncomfortable with discussing it. so basically, they figured it out before i did, meanwhile i was too caught up in panicking abt what other ppl thought of me and questioning whether i was Ace Enough To Count to see what was apparently horrendously obvious, lmao
Me too! It was especially bad when I tried opening up more and share my experience online, because there would constantly be someone saying i need therapy or writing these paragraphs about how asexual people can still feel sexual attraction and have sex. But since my experience is not feeling any of that, it made me think I wasn't valid and like theres something wrong with me. So for a while I said I was demisexual to pretend like I was "normal". Fuck the discourse.
@@missliv.404 I LITERALLY did the same thing!
Seriously! I used to identify as a lesbian as a teenager but when I grew up and stopped going through puberty hormone hell, I realized I’m non-binary and aroace. One time I found my old tumblr login and the stuff I had reblogged about aro, ace, and NB people was HUMILIATING like why did I do that.
it reminds me of the "gold star lesbian" discourse, like it's all about who is "gay enough." so exhausting. we don't need to tear each other down when we are constantly being attacked by homophobes and transphobes. stand together.
'gold star' was forced on lesbians for not sleeping with men, it was a derisive thing that people said to us (like 'ohhh do you want a gold star for being so special?') and it is hurting nobody for lesbians to reclaim it ✌ any other gbtq person can do whatever they want but lesbians are policed like crazy sooo.
Of course we need to tear each other down, that's the inevitability of exclusionary ideology. Here's how these things literally always go:
1. Identify Problems with your life.
2. Identify a stereotypical type of person who causes those Problems. This is the Enemy.
3. Attribute malicious intent to the Enemy; believe that the Enemy is deliberately scheming and conspiring to cause your Problems.
4. Form a group of people who have identified the same Enemy as the cause of their own Problems.
5. Define a shared identity for the group, rooted in persecution by the Enemy.
6. Isolate the group from the Enemy by establishing exclusionary locations, so that the Enemy can no longer cause Problems.
7. Realise that your Problems are still here.
8. Rationalise the continuation of those Problems as there being Enemies within the exclusive space - infiltrators or sympathisers.
9. Begin a witchhunt to discover and expel the Enemies within the space, by defining virtuous behaviours and opinions.
10. Attempt to embody the defined virtuous behavior so as to avoid suspicion of being an Enemy, and signal to the group your virtue.
11. Exile from the group anyone with low virtue - particularly those with contradictory opinions.
12. Go to 7 and repeat, now with a smaller, more extreme, more insular group.
You see this everywhere an exclusionary group exists, they end up defining virtue, creating a group membership identity, and then focusing almost entirely on self-policing. It's why for example there isn't really a continuous spectrum of Christian fervour, you're either a mild, low-commitment, cultural Christian, or you're a hyper-invested, probably fundamentalist zealot, with very little in-between.
@@yurisei6732well said
seriously. especially when compulsive heterosexuality is such a normal experience for all queer people. you don't get a little gold star, you're equally hated by homophobes as non-gold star queer people are. the need to feel better than others or special is natural, but you need to also be self-aware.
The what discorse
I am asexual, and I don't participate in ace spaces online, really. Honestly even this video thumbnail/title just gave me anxiety lol. It's just... not worth it? It's all in-fighting, "discourse", posts about aphobia, questions of "are ace people queer" x1000, ace people calling each other not ace because they can experience arousal, other ace people being weird/negative about queer allos, why should I look at any of it? After I got info from the community about my sexuality, I just peaced out
It sucks, since it seems like it would be nice to have a fun community of people who I could relate to, but it's just... not lol
Exact same thing here. It’s nice knowing there is others out there, but so much of what is shared in online spaces is just negative or uncomfortable. I think it’s very ironic that I felt that “I don’t belong”even when I’m at the very end of the spectrum as I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of others had the same feeling despite being ace in a wholly different way. Even more ironic is that the main reason I pulled away from those spaces is that I was sick of seeing so much discussion about sex. Overall the energy and the vibes were just off
Thanks for the reminder that I feel the same. I clicked on this video to see exactly what it was about (since titles and thumbnails are usually insufficient), listened to a minute then scrolled through the comments, and now see it's more or less the same discourse I've seen before. I like to stay aware of core issues each community may face, I may even engage in it a tad, but overall I'll leave it at this here too.
Advocating is an entire calling in duty, and not everyone is up to it. Far too many problems start and continue from couch "advocates" arguing just to argue without truly understanding the nuances or putting in the work to enact actual change.
Yep same
it's a bummer to hear that so many people feel this way. I wish I could help all of y'all find positive supportive ace communities, in your areas or online! i haven't personally been involved in the biggest online ones so i can't speak on them but i've had good experiences with my local ace/aro meetup group (a benefit of living near a big progressive city) and with the associated Discord, as well as the sort of accidental ace communities that arise in fandoms by people just realizing there are lots of ace people around.
@@ReadWithJill im a little confused by this comment because this thread seems to be all ace people discussing their experiences with ace communities and infighting etc? I don't disagree that allos shouldn't dictate ace things but im missing how anyone was suggesting that they should
Bringing peace offering in the form of chocolate cake and garlic bread.
*clinks breadsticks* To the peace offerings
The Ace community will also be accepting ethically sourced dragon's eggs, astral minerals, and fine decks of playing cards as peace offerings.
@@lilpetz500 Dragon Eggs remind me of ‘Dragon Tales’ for some reason
@@cottoncandie761
*eats both breadsticks*
much appreciated ;)
Finding out that I'm acearo helped me so much, broght me SO MUCH relief, but I think people forget how much emphasis exists in sex and romance to validade a relationship.
Yes to this! The extraordinary amount of invalidation I have faced as aro ace my whole life even from people who are suuuuuper evolved and either support lgbt rights or are queer themselves is exhausting. Wanting sex of some sort is seen not only as the default but the natural thing and anything other can and must be medically treated. Soooo tired. ❤❤
Finding the aro ace “label” (so to speak) has given me such a sense of validation for my nature and peace of mind.
Finding aroace language was really the last piece of the puzzle to understanding myself, my needs and gave me the space to realise I don't need to force myself into an awkward partnership that doesn't really work for either of us.
Deep meaningful bonds with those around me are more important and fulfilling to me, and finding other aros, aces and queer people has really validated my own self and way I feel.
It's so important that these voices are heard and supported, for the sake of others who are struggling against having to conform to typical expectations of romance & sex.
People put so much value on sex in relationships. They’ll treat it as a benchmark for if it’s healthy or going to work out, as if it’s the deciding factor on whether a relationship lasts
@@xtrff2024 Literally. It’s so tiring. Plus this harms people who are survivors of SA too.
I’ve always thought of it like being nonbinary vs being trans: some nonbinary people consider themselves trans too but others consider themselves only nonbinary. Some ace people might consider themselves queer for one reason or another or don’t for other reasons. It really is up to the individual ace person to decide where they feel comfortable 😊
But that’s the issue: some people make it very unwelcoming and uncomfortable for ace people who DO consider themselves queer. And honestly I think it’s a shame that people are exclusionary.
I’m waiting for the nonbinary vs agender discourse
@@franjkav please don't speak it to existence 😭😭😭
But like... trans is the opposite of cis. If you aren't cisgender, you're transgender. Non-binary ppl (like myself) are always trans since we aren't cisgender.
I'm not the label police though and if people wanna claim to be non-trans enbies, that's their choice. To me it always seemed like internalized transphobia in order to distance themselves more from binary trans ppl and the trans discourse.
@@franjkav"agender" fits neatly into the nonbinary label. You will however find people who say that nonbinary people aren't queer unless they're attracted to people with the same genitalia as them, because they view the queer experience purely in terms of wanting sex with a partner whose genitals are the same. As you can perhaps guess, this is mostly cisgender people who have never thought about their gender.
Haaaa this discourse is the most weird and stressful for me because I'm AFAB demifemme. I wouldn't call myself trans because I don't feel the need to distance myself "enough" (i got no effin clue what enough would be just i don'tgot it according to my brain) from my Gender assigned at birth to feel like I fully belong, but I'm also not really cis... so I just sprta feel like I'm sitting on the edge of the trans community not really belonging but also i really love all my trans and enby friends and adore seeing them live their best lives.
Can't believe I'm saying this, but I honestly preferred the "Are the straights allowed at pride?" discourse.
I would assume a lot of the people who want to exclude straights from pride are the same ones who want to wield the gavel when it comes to deciding who is and isn't queer. Can hardly gatekeep if you don't have an invitation list...
thats also still very much happening sadly, as well as ace discourse :(
oh i've been seeing an increase of that lately, with the "should bi women bring their straight boyfriends to pride" thing going around. it's insufferable 💀
Any "should blank be allowed at pride"discourse is so stupid. If they feel safe at pride and aren't hurting anyone why not
Straights are 100% allowed at pride, the whole point of pride parades is to show your support of the LGBTQ+ community. By definition, allies can and should be there if they're able.
One of the things that compels me to believe that, if they want, asexual people belong in the LGBTQ community is that I don’t want my community to be defined by suffering. While it is a reality of the queer community, I do not believe that it has to be a reality forever. Therefore, I do not want exclusion or inclusion to be dictated by some sort of measurement of suffering.
and the idea that ace people don’t suffer discriminatory violence is completely inaccurate. don’t look up the stats about ace folks and “corrective” SA for example unless you want your day ruined. 🙃 i agree with you though, the lgbtq+ community should not be completely defined by suffering. it’s about identity first.
Yeah being queer should be fun, if I'm thinking about our discrimination all the time that's not fun. It's important to talk about but I'm not just a punching bag
I think defining almost any minority by its suffering is inherently unproductive to any possible activism. It's important to acknowledge past hurt but to act as if the hurt is a built in part of the identity prevents anyone from making any progress towards getting rid of that hurt.
Here is the problem: the modern origins of racial, sexual, etc identities is based on oppression. Feminism, gay liberation, black power, etc would not have existed without an opressive force to fight against and such oppression come from the caragization of people in particular boxes and basing a hierarchy off of them. Suffering is not inhernet to being gay, a woman, trans, or non-white but these groups have a history of suffering and they do suffer in their present.
@@redmaple1982 Also fyi you should be careful about this argument with gender and feminism. It's in the realm of what TERFs use to say that since the modern identity of womanhood is based on historical oppression and imposed hierarchies, transwomen aren't truly women without a cis-woman's specific biology and upbringing.
I think that labels both liberate and restrict. When I was in high school, discovering Asexuality and Demi Wiki pages relieved me from feeling "broken." We know sexuality is a spectrum, why is it so hard to accept that perhaps it is a intersectional, moveable one? This reminds me of the discourse of "gold star" gays, as though being intimate with certain partners invalidates a person's queerness. Growing up, one of my Mom's friends told me that he didn't know he was gay until he had dated both men and women. Compulsory Heterosexuality aside, this anecdote drives home my belief that discovery and change can be part of a person's lifelong relationship with sexuality. Also, if you go around policing other's sexuality, get a better hobby.
I think the idea of “straight/straight-passing privilege” does sometimes lead to things like “gold star gays” and biphobia/aphobia
I've been espousing the better hobby agenda for as long as I've been online too. There's really no need to spend so much time nitpicking about how people experience their sexuality. Sexuality is def a spectrum regardless of which one it is, and people need to get used to it already... And a particular fuck that to the gold star discourse, that is SO fucked up and rooted in so much purity culture bs, like it's genuinely disgusting to me to exclude people based on who they've been with.
Re: labels both liberating and restricting, I always compare labels to cats and boxes: if the cat sits in a box, let it. But don't ever try to cram a cat in a box it doesn't want to be in.
This is really true, I think on the hand I kind of hate labels in that labels come with stigma and baggage and assumptions that may not be true.
But in the other hand once you can name something you can understand it and digest it and talk about it more, you can find community and understanding.
Also labels tend to not take into account reasons why things are the way they are, like it can be a huge combination of factors that explain human behavior it not just be I am the way I am because it’s in my DNA.
I have a lot to say on labels;
For example, you could argue on a technicality that I’m bisexual. I’m attracted to more than one gender. But those genders don’t include men. So I call myself a lesbian. Because non men ask questions and inquire, and women know they are included, but I don’t get creepy men.
But the minute I have said I was bisexual men immediately include themselves.
And I also feel that hyper specific labels can really help. I as a baby gay used hyper specific labels to really just explore what I actually was thinking and feeling, and it opened up what I could possibly be allowed to feel, and I’ve since moved away from that but it made a world of difference to me.
I think labels have the ability to hold power as much as any words do- and that allows them to be very helpful and sometimes harmful
The internet really needs to sit down and have a talk about the difference between descriptive labels and proscriptive labelling. They _are not the same thing._
This is a *very* good observation
Not really. Descriptive labelling always results in prescriptive labelling. That's just how our brains are wired - words mean things, so when we hear a word we know, we expect it to mean what we think it means. We need to switch from focusing on descriptions of people to descriptions of behaviours - nouns to verbs. This is how we'll stop forcing baggage onto everyone we talk about; a statement about what someone does says nothing about anything else they do, whereas a statement about who or what someone definitionally "is" or "qualifies as" will always, unavoidably, cause people to make a lot of assumptions.
I was trying to write something about possibly being aromantic but the autocorrect made it into aromatic 😭 I am benzene now
benzene!!!!
I once came out to a friend on messenger and was non-plussed when they laugh reacted... us aromatics have gotta stick together 🙃
To be fair, benzene is a much cooler thing to be than human anyway.
So true. I’m actually an essential oil diffuser
benzene is so toxic though!
My cat has a beautiful delicate incense-like aroma when he's just been bathing himself. If you are aromatic, you might just be a well-looked-after cat!
I've never understood why people make a distinction between a "true" identity vs one "caused by" trauma or disability. With trauma, you can't un-live it; it's something that happened to you. And you can't always heal every aspect of your trauma. Sometimes you just have to incorporate "this thing happened to me and changed me in these ways" into who you are. And disability is similar; it affects how your body and/or brain function on a fundamental level. Why do we think that only people who haven't experienced trauma or disability get to have "true" identities? Are they not also the sum of everything that has happened to them? Thinking "would I identify this way if I weren't traumatized/disabled" is an exercise in futility. There is not a hidden untraumatized/able-bodied version of me hiding somewhere. My trauma and disability are "true." (I should note that I don't ID as asexual, but this topic comes up a lot with queer identities in general so I'm speaking from a similar experience.)
It reminds me of things I've seen involving childhood trauma, and the anxiety and grief surrounding "I don't know who I was before my trauma because it occurred at the earliest point in my life". Who we are is affected by our experiences. Very, what's the term, but it's where you point to genetics as being immutable and "destiny" or something. That's how people come off when it comes to "true identities"
There's already an offensive belief that asexuals are actually just sick and need to be treated. I feel identifying as ace from trauma, illness, or medication give legitimacy to this preconception. I don't want my sexual orientation to become a synonym for symptom. Though i don't think my opinion is common in the ace community
To answer your question, its cishet people's fault, like Rowan pointed out early on in the video. The original rhetoric, at least in the Western world, was that homosexuality and transsexuality were mental illnesses with an array of causes. Maybe a woman thought she was a lesbian because she just really hated men. Maybe a man thought he was gay because he had been SA'd by a man. So on and so forth. That was kinda the dominant thought process for cishet people and that idea still exists. So the lgbt community thought to resist this idea by instead saying "no, its not because of trauma. This is naturally who I am. I would be this way even if I wasn't traumatized". You're allowed to disagree with this but this idea is simply a counter to the original narrative put forth by cishets. I don't think the "born this way"/ "true identities" narrative would even exist if we didn't live in such a violently homophobic/transphobic world.
Speaking as someone who is a CSA survivor, there is a difference between trauma and being ace. Like trauma is something that blocks you from engaging in your sexual attraction, it's like wanting to eat cake but being scared to because last time you had cake there was broken glass in it, I can get therapy to get me to trust eating cake and feel safe with cake again. But with an asexual they would never feel that desire to eat cake, sure they might like cake and have some when offered, but they never crave that cake. As for disability, there are ways disabled folks can engage in sex that goes outside of penetrative sex, there's medicine to help with libido and lubricants. But all that stuff isn't going to solve lack of attraction. Like there's this growing issue of gaging someone's allosexuality based on their sexual engagement and well that's just generally unhealthy and just as harmful as gaging someone's asexuality based on lack of sexual engagement
It's the difference between living with a disfiguring injury or not, and is a matter of health.
The traumatised mind is indeed different from an untraumatised mind - in a similar way to how scar tissue is different from normal tissue. And scar tissue is, in that sense, 'abnormal', a moving away from how you were 'supposed' to grow, in a negative, less healthy way.
And we can see which state is healthier than the other - that is, which is more likely to be associated with, cause, or lead on to further problems.
Pain is not a good thing. Pain is the body's signaling of things 'going wrong', moving away from a better, less troubled state of being to one that is worse for us. Trauma is mental pain. You shouldn't want it, and it is by no measure 'good'. One cannot say that a traumatised being, a traumatised state of identity is any more acceptable a turn of events than one can say that someone having their face ripped off in a machine shop accident is acceptable.
It's good to support those who have been through traumatic experiences. But it is never, ever healthy to encourage someone to remain fixed in that traumatised state, or identify with that trauma. That's straight-up dangerous for them. In the same way that it is far better for physical scars to heal, to fade away and be replaced with healthier, ordinary tissue, so it is with mental trauma.
I can't watch this video for a while. I will come back to it. As an ace person who is so tired of being told I don't belong with the queers or the straights, so I don't belong anywhere .... This topic is too venomous for me. I will come back to this one Rowan, I promise. Your takes are so well researched and compassionate. It must have been painful to cover this as an ace person yourself. Thank you. I'll return
yeah, same, i legitimately have trauma from it, and not in a 'oh, this hurt me' way, actual trauma. It's hard out here, because coming out as aroace can get you a venemous reaction for queerphobic cishet people, so to see queer people partaking is...yeah, it was tough. It's interesting to see how people are realizing those calling it out from the start were right and the queer people excluding aces are all aligned with terfs now, i think their intentions are much clearer and more people are starting to see it, and if it helps, we don't need anyone to tell us what we can and can't do, we know our experiences more than anyone and are welcome in queer spaces on the very basis of being ace, not in spite of. Much love.
@@Gii7077 💚
@@Gii7077It also isn't a coincidence that the same people hate trans men in particular, and are often biphobic. Nearly identical rhetoric. Sending much love
you belong and we love you
@@luckyowl9191 thank you 🫂
My knee-jerk response to albatrosses being called seagulls led me down a wild rabbithole. They're actually closer related to penguins than seagulls, apparently!
Damn, I always just assumed they were like seagulls but bigger.
@@Michael-es4dt I knew they were *different* from gulls personally, but I figured if I looked it up they'd still be each other's closest relatives. Apparently not! Convergent evolution is so wild ♡
There were gay albatrosses but there were also separately lesbian seagulls. Neither statement is wrong, but they’re separate events
Like what some other people have brought up, people forget the emphasis on romantic and sexual attraction in society. My entire life conversations have often been based around love lives and people asking me about crushes, do I have a boyfriend, is there that "special someone" yet, and other things like that. The first reaction my very supportive mother had when I came out as an asexual, was telling me how I'm too young to know, and the "what about the kids?" argument. When I brought up that I would probably end up getting a vasectomy her first thought was to tell me a story about how doctors denied her friend from the procedure because of these reasons-
* What about your husband?
-divorced
* What about kids?
-Already has 2, doesn't want more
* What if you want more in the future?
- She doesn't (plus adoption is a thing)
* What if your future husband wants more biological kids?
- Oh well
* Oh well, still no because of all these what ifs
She ended up getting denied either way. My mother frequently tried to fear monger me into no longer being out and proud. She has gotten better, but she still brings things up like that. I don't doubt what she told me won't happen, in fact I know it's incredibly likely, especially since I don't conform to any gender identity, to add to the fact I myself am a sex repulsed asexual.
Stay safe, and love yourselves.
getting a vasectomy is treated much differently that getting one’s tubes tied. that probably happened to your mom’s friend because they’re female. I believe (at least in some US states) that women who are married can have their husband’s sign off on that procedure. No similar restrictions for men (or women over 25)
We also don’t acknowledge how mentally harmful these questions are expectations are. I have immense shame and fear about being unlovable and dying alone because our society is built on romantic sexual relationships and the expectation that they are the final goal of life, the only way to safely and comfortably live and die.
Oh gosh, this is giving me war flashbacks with my own interactions with adults who care about me. But oblivious to how harmful it is for me.
I salute (if virtual hugging isn’t your thing) you, fellow sex repulsed ace person. 🫡
I had similar issues with my dad, who is the one who found the ace label and showed it to me in the first place. He changed from just asking if I have a boyfriend to also asking if I have a girlfriend, which (he claimed) wasn't discriminatory because he was was asking about both. I had to give very black and white explanations to anything I explained to him because any hint of contradiction or messiness would lead to arguments. Much easier to say I'm 100% aroace sex-repulsed no libido than to have to explain (to my dad!) that ace people don't have to be aro and some of them don't mind sex and sometime we have libidos and then listen to his uninformed opinions as he explains my aceness to me.
He also shared a story about how he was denied the vasectomy he wanted when the mother was pregnant with my youngest sister. The argument from the doctor being "What if she miscarries and you need to try again" and my dad's argument being that he didn't want a third kid in the first place. (The mother lied about / sabotaged birth control, it's a long story.) While I would very much like my own reproductive organs to not exist, I've got basically no chance that anyone would allow the surgery considering my age, perceived gender, and lack of medical problems.
I have something that I cringe at everytime I remember it. I was in year 6, people were asking about crushes and the question had come around to me.
I apparently did not fully know what I crush was beyond someone you love. I answered the question with one of my family members. My reasoning , “a crush is someone you love right? I love my family, so maybe that’s a good enough answer for them right?” Without thinking of the implications. 🤦♀️
Nope, everyone laughed because funny Alabama thing probably, smh. I didn’t consider what they found so funny either until I remembered it ages later 🤦♀️
I'm demisexual and bi and I struggle to feel included in LGBTQ+ spaces because my relationship is very straight-passing. It's frustrating to have to constantly explain that "no, I'm still ace and bi, my partner's gender presentation has no bearing on my sexuality."
Shout out to the fellow demi bi people! Yeah it's frustrating having to combat both biphobia and acephobia but I'll be damned if people try to invalidate me and drive me out of a space that should be inclusive. I'm queer and the relationships I have with others doesn't change who I am and how I identify myself
Doesn't sexuality define what gender you want you're partner to be? So yes, your partners gender has a bearing on your sexuality. if you weren't bi and were instead single sex attracted, then will you still argue your partners gender has no bearing on your sexuality?
@supportchaos8392 no.. your partners gender doesn't matter to your sexuality. sure, it may be an indicator, but not always. prime example is gay men who hide the fact they are gay in straight relationships for years, even having kids in said relationship. Not only can people lie, being bisexual means you like both. Its like strawberry and chocolate ice cream... Just because im eating and loving the strawberry right now doesn't mean i don't think the chocolate is also fn delicious. I just cant pick both at once unless I get a bigger bowl (be poly)
What does it matter if you're in a straight relationship? If you're bi you're still bi, you're still attracted to the same sex.
The entire concept of "straight-passing" drives me up the damn wall.
I wish all of us who, for one reason or another, were excluded or made to feel unwelcome in LGBTQIA+ community/spaces, could invent teleportation and hang out together.
Much love to you.
making these extremely rigid boundaries around labels will always exclude people who are questioning from realizing theyre queer. it has taken me a long time to learn i am lesbian because i dont feel a repulsion towards men and heterosexual sex as well as struggling to imagine a lesbian relationship since there are so few representations of lesbians and what is there doesnt fit how i see myself and what i want. it is extremely difficult to figure out these things when the "born this way" and "i always knew" rhetoric dominates all discussion around queerness (and not the fun kind of domination).
I haven't paid attention to aroace discussions online for a few years but it's interesting for myself and other aces it's kinda the opposite. I was always told you can only be asexual or aromantic due to SA and trauma not "born this way". Something has to be medically wrong with you etc. Because alloromantic people cannot conceptualize someone wanting to be without sex or single willingly 🥴🤦🏽♀️. I'm assuming the gatekeeping about the examples Rowan used about the people who have lost attraction and libido may be a result of aroace people like myself who were treated cruelly. I still have knee jerk reactions about people IDing as ace due to trauma unfortunately but I get it's not those people who are the problem. Inclusivity is never the problem. Heteronormativity interferes with self discovery and acceptance for all people cishet and queer.
Ah the "I always knew" rhetoric messed with my ability to accept I was trans for a long time too. Part of it was that I didn't know afab people could be trans, the only trans people I knew of were trans women. But also I didn't have the "I knew I was a boy when I was five" experience that was so often talked about.
It encourages such a lack of exploration and makes it seem like you have to know right here right now where you stand and how you feel. There’s such hostility towards people dipping their toes into queerness which know they aren’t allocishet but don’t know how to identify quite yet. Like damn if you gonna demand all these identifying labels you might as well ask for their social security number next
This is me. I'm in my mid-30s, and I didn't realize I was ace until VERY recently because I experience some sexual attraction (infrequent and weak, but not zero). I thought there was no way I could be ace because of that. It's been hard sometimes. Because I thought I was "normal," I struggled in my relationships. I didn't realize that the majority(?) of the population experienced sexual attraction differently than I did. I find all kinds of people attractive, but that attraction practically never connected to a desire to have sex. My partners often felt hurt because they thought I wasn't attracted to them because of this lack of desire. It almost ruined my relationship with my now-spouse because I felt like the world was telling me that if I didn't want sex with them then I wasn't really in love with them.
It wasn't until I said to a friend, "I could never have sex in my life, and I wouldn't care." And they responded, "Yeah, I don't think that's normal." They didn't say that in a bad or judgemental way, but simply as a statement. That compelled me to look more deeply into it. I found out about the ace spectrum and realized the grey ace identity really fit with my experiences. It's been such a relief to realize that there's nothing wrong with me. I don't "suffer from low libido" and need some kind of treatment. It's okay for me to be the way I am.
It has made me feel queer, but the "discourse" that I ran across in my research has made me apprehensive about participating in queer circles online.
The impact of the discourse unfortunately had a lasting effect on me. I realized I was ace long before I realized I was a lesbian. But even in super accepting queer spaces, I’m quicker to tell people I’m a lesbian rather than reveal I’m ace out of fear that it will spark some sort of argument or questioning of my identity.
In general, I think the conversation is shifting to be less vitriolic, and I’m very interested to see where it goes from here. Really loved this video, and I’ll definitely be thinking about it for a while. It was much needed and a very refreshing take on things.
Sending love to all my fellow aces
this is so real, i had the same trajectory in figuring out i was an ace lesbian. i think my trepidation about telling people about my asexuality comes from a different place, but a similar source: as i come of age in the community and meet more queer adults who have 10-15 years on me or more, i’m a lot more hesitant to reveal my asexuality to them than to queer people my own age. i think zoomers with discourse blogs don’t scare me like they used to (and thankfully they’re a LOT less common to encounter in the wild, in my experience) - now the fear is that Real Adults who touch grass will think i’m a tiny little baby because i just kiss girls and don’t fuck them. and i think that came out of the discourse too - the fact that the culture-makers and the viral posters of the 2017ish ace community were all young teenagers (or at least behaved that way), the way exclusionists would mock us for being childish and puritanical about sex, the insistence that no Real Adult queer person who was in the trenches before like 2010 could ever take us seriously. i’m sure i’ll graduate past this anxiety one day, but in the meantime it’s a bummer. it’s hard enough to be taken seriously as an adult when you’re a neurodivergent 22-year-old who’s broke and can’t drive, i didn’t need this shit too lmao
yes, I'm an aspec lesbian and I feel very similarly! Lesbian is also just more known and easily understood by most people, so it avoids the process of debating your own existence that ace does :/ I wish people would just cool it and listen to each other
As an asexual/aromantic woman, I identify as a part of the queer community. I think my experiences align with lesbians' in a lot of ways. We are both women who are not attracted to men in a heteronormative society.
All the time I get people assuming that I'm straight and I'm going to marry a man one day. It kind of chips away at my spirit.
Additionally, I have told a few people that I'm aro/ace, and I would describe that as a "coming out" moment. It's scary. You don't know if they'll understand your orientation or treat you differently for it.
i’m an ace lesbian who identified as aroace for seven years (and tbh at the time i wasn’t wrong) and i’m totally with you on this. my lesbian friends made me feel so seen and hopeful in my sexual identity when i was first figuring my shit out. i felt a deep kinship with the lesbian community long before i was a part of it, because they paved the way for me to live my truth and showed me what my future could look like when imagining one felt impossible. so yes 100 times over, solidarity!! lesbians and aroace women are sisters and we’re so fucking powerful together
For me it was the other way around. I identified as a lesbian for six years before changing to ace and then aroace. I still feel deep kinship with lesbians and will still watch something just because there is a lesbian (I don't with gay men) It feels strange to be culturally so engrained with lesbians despite not being interested in dating/sleeping with women. I still feel sapphic in some intangible but present way
I'm an aspec lesbian, and I very much feel the same! I found it more frightening to come out as ace than lesbian tbh, bc it leads to more questioning.
It's disappointing when I try to discuss the similarities in lesbian & aroace women experiences with other lesbians online and it's received negatively :/ but honestly it might go over better as an in-person conversation!
As an ace lesbian I couldn't agree more
I'm not ace. I am a lesbian (discovered late, unfortunately), and feel a strong kindship with ace enbies, women and femmes, and their experiences, that I couldn't put words to or quite figure out.
Thank you so much for finding those words and helping me understand why.
Another experience that we share is aggressive treatment from men who are offended/bothered by our lack of interest in them (and appealing to them).
The safety, strength, comfort, and community we could find together, based on those shared experiences, sounds like a wonderful thing. I've experienced it in person with my ace honorary sibling. Hopefully, our communities will recognize this and embrace each other as the natural allies we are.
(for full disclosure, I'm AFAB intersex. I've passed for a girl/woman and been treated as one for my entire life, so again, we share those experiences. If that makes anyone uncomfortable or I've inappropriately presumed solidarity, I'm so sorry).
I am not asexual myself, but I’ve never thought of asexuality as something that should be excluded from the queer community simply because it sits outside of the cis/het sexual norm. Didn’t know it was something that people debated! Thanks for your perspective ✨
I’m not either BUT… when I was growing up post sexual revolution and during the sex positive feminist movement, there was a persistent and infuriating belief that all women were asexual by default.
It had been the norm since the Victorian era.
Most laws were based on propping those beliefs up.
If women were not asexual something was wrong with them, and they should be. To this day women are labeled “sex addicts” if they experience desire once a week.
In 1973, 2 years before I was born, research came out saying women did not have sexual desires, sex drives or fantasies. It was absurd but again had been the belief for decades on end.
NOW… I want to make this very clear.
I’m 100% for people only doing what they are comfortable with. I want everyone to be themselves and be respected, as long as they are not hurting anyone.
There is nothing to correct. People have their reasons for everything.
That said…
The argument that asexual people are being discriminated against seems entirely fictional to me.
A lot of it pulls from the exact same stereotypes and rhetoric used by Christian Nationalists and lesbian separatist radfems.
Many people still think women are or should be asexual. They do want to turn the clock back and attempt to force it through legislation.
There have been groups actively working to roll back the 1960s sexual revolution, which was primarily about rolling back terrible legislation that oppressed every group (straight, gay, people of color, etc), for 6 decades.
I am almost 49 years old and the idea that sexual liberation has been the norm in my lifetime is laughable.
People had to fight tooth and nail to be able to consent as an adult, without serious legal and social repercussions.
I see a lot of aces basically buying into arguments that I see as a threat, especially in the current climate.
I’m in GSA at my school… I (aroace) am the secretary and my friend (also aroace) is the copresident. There was a girl who, upon finding this out, was like “but you guys aren’t actually queer”. I don’t think she realized that we’re both nonbinary, but it shouldn’t matter, because we are. I’ve also had friends tell me I may as well be straight. It’s very strange.
@@middlenerd178 Yeah, it’s weird. I’m demisexual and bigender, and bi (both romantic and sexually). It’s so odd. I know I had a lot of internalized acephobia because of dealing with my own feelings and SA, and I hope others can grow like I did.
Edit: Whatever reason they have acephobia.
@middlenerd178 that's why we need to align ourselves with the bi community. We can both relate to "if you can appear nOrMaLly, why don't you"
Like Jan, if it's that easy why don't you just join me and be ace. These idiot think big people can just switch off their arousal to the same sex like they think we can turn on our arousal to opposite sex.
My bisexual roommate and friend believes ace people shouldn’t be considered part of the queer community because they aren’t really oppressed by society…have been kind of afraid to tell her I’m aroace ever since lol
I wish there was more comfort with the idea of identity being a fluid thing that can change over time without repercussions. There wouldn’t be this intense defining of asexuality and whether those using the label due to trauma or medication or whatever should be allowed.
Because if you’re able to change labels without judgement, then you can identify as ace and then if that becomes untrue for you later, you can change labels while still acknowledging that the time you spend as asexual was real and valid but it just isn’t who you are anymore.
And you see this type of label swapping as people discover themselves, like a lot of trans people will identify with gay or straight based on their attraction before they know they’re trans and then end up swapping that sexuality label once they figure out their gender.
But I feel like when people ID as straight, no gay, no bi actually and so on, people get annoyed more and more with each label change and act like that person is a liar or lacks identity. I think we need to accept the idea that people aren’t always going to hit the bullseye with who they are, and that people change as we grow and that it is ok to come and go between labels and communities. Phases are ok actually.
But I guess that contradicts the born this way narrative that demands you dig down and find some never wavering true essence of yourself as soon as possible.
I swear sexuality and gender is like picking a major.
Totally agree! I think it's easy to lose sight of labels being helpful tools for communication and not full encapsulations of every person’s individual experiences. I think a lot of the pushback around flexibility is somewhat based in anger against experiences of others invalidating their sexuality.
It took me a few years to be comfortable with the idea that I might not always identify as asexual. The reason I clung so hard to that label was because I was trying to prove something. I had a few experiences of people invalidating my sexuality and they made me double down on a “I have and will always be asexual” mentality. But those comments also got in my head enough that I put myself in some uncomfortable situations just to prove that they were wrong about me.
Eventually was able to figure out that I was just hurting myself by confining myself to a narrow box forever. I'm still working on getting comfortable going unlabeled in regard to romantic attraction.
YESSS! SOMEONE FINALLY SAID IT! I'm tired of being invalidated by people because my labels changed within the last few years.
Like good for you if your label has been set in stone since birth, but sometimes it can be more complicated for others@
I disagree - I think we need to stop obsessing about "what" someone is. Identity isn't a fluid thing, because identity isn't a thing at all. Fluidity, "changing over time", implies that you can "be" something at one moment and "be" something else later on, changing between the two things. But that's not how we actually work. We don't know who we are. When we say that we "are X", we don't know that, that's just our best guess right now, and it might even be coloured by a desire to be a type of thing we perceive as virtuous. When we later say "I'm Y", we didn't change from being X to being Y, we changed from thinking we were X to thinking we are Y.
This is why identity, and especially exclusionary behaviour based on identity, is so absurd - when you gatekeep someone else's identity, there's a not insignificant chance that you're mistaken about what you yourself are.
@@yurisei6732 I don’t think we necessarily disagree when it comes to the core idea. Like I get what you’re saying, but the thing is that labels can still be important for expressing how we feel and how we perceive ourselves. Whether or not you can truly be anything, you still need language to describe your experience even if that language can’t truly encapsulate the human condition, it’s the best we have. It’s just a tool to help express to others and explain how you feel and see yourself and I think because this tool of language can’t always hit the nail on the head, people shouldn’t be punished for exploring different labels. Yknow what I’m sayin?
@@yurisei6732Ok you're getting into a field of philosophy that isn't really applicable. Arguing there is no self doesn't help people who are being told their sense of self is immoral.
As a black woman who thinks she may be asexual, this video made me feel both seen and discouraged, haha
You may find “ refusing compulsory sexuality” helpful. It was written by Sherronda J Brown who wrote the book from a Black ace perspective. I found it very helpful as an ace but I know not all of what was discussed was for me
Check out the British activist: Yasmin Benoit! 💚💜
I highly recommend that you check out the amazing asexual and LGBTQIA+ activist, Yasmin Benoit. She is also an alternative gothic model who speaks about the importance of tolerance, acceptance, and an end to conversion therapy within the asexual community and greater LGBTQIA+ community. She also speaks about how being a black woman has affected how she is perceived in the LGBTQIA+ community. She speaks at universities, healthcare facilities, LGBTQIA+ events, and even law offices around the UK and teaches them about asexuality. She was the leader of the London Pride parade this year and also one of the leaders of New York Pride last year. She has won countless accolades for her work. Honestly, I find her discourse and her little space online to be very positive. I still struggle with being ace, but I see Yasmin's joy and love for herself and it makes me feel so good.
@@sarahc5608 Yeah! You totally beat me to it. Yasmin is such an amazing woman who has done so much for the ace, demisexual, and agender community!
This life as minority sadly
The only reason I disagree with the aces aren't queer comment is becuase viewing society through an ace/aro spec lens allows you to see how confining heteronormativity is and how pervasive it can be in LGBTQ spaces. As a cis-het person, I also feel like I'm not really apart of the LGBTQ community (I can't relate to a lot of the struggles and dont want to infringe on spaces with my straightness) but I view the aspec community as a place where people can go to when they feel like they don't fit the social script of western heteronormativity (have a lot of sex in high school and college, get married to one person, have kids). The ace and aro labels remind me that I don't need to worry about fitting into those scripts. Ace and aro communites open up discussion on what human connection and intimacy is.
Well put. A lot of people I talk to haven't considered love outside of romantic and family scripts, but there's so many different kinds of intimacy. I think everyone would be happier recognizing the valuable kinds of intimacy and support you can get from a whole network. Especially for men it seems like all of that is supposed to come from one sexual and romantic partner. Whenever I explain aromanticism to someone I feel like it opens something up. People are able to reassess their experiences outside of our comp-het social narrative. I hear so many stories!
i was going to comment something similar, i feel like anyone who isn’t ace/aro will just never see it through the lens we do. i am always reminded i’m asexual when hearing people worry about their partners refusing sex for a week or 2 or people breaking up for physical reasons. it’s baffling to me
@@souliewrldI remember on reddit once there was a woman asking what she should do in her relationship because she didnt want to have sex with her boyfriend. She liked him, she liked touching him, she wanted to stay with him but admitted to never caring about having sex and feeling repulsed when having sex although they didnt mind masturbation.
I commented saying essentially, "I dont want to label you, but have you ever looked into asexuality?"
They were awful to me because obviously they werent asexual, I cant read or I would have seen that they like touching themselves.
I explained that ace spec people can experience physical needs and have a libido, it would just be low. That it's way more complex and that looking into asexuality would be more about how the world treats what intimacy and relationships should be . I said I was ace and wasnt sex repulsed and also had some libido.
Their response was to tell me I wasnt asexual and was instead a freak for trying to convince them they were something they were so obviously not and that I had no idea what I was even talking about.
People dont realize that ace issues are important because how we label what intimacy, lust, and love is a discussion that needs to be had for the betterment of everyone-not just out and proud ace people. Nobody should be feeling they have to do anything to have a proper intimate and romantic relationship no matter their sexuality. But people instead choose to label the ace people as the damaged or wrong ones rather than accept that society itself is wrong.
First and foremost community can be built from oppression, but community is not only for the oppressed. I saw a post on tumblr from a person with lesbian parents who came out to them and had a supportive experience, lives in a queer friendly area and doesn’t/hasn’t yet faced oppression in their daily life. Do they not deserve community because they don’t ‘need’ it? Seeing how ridiculous that sounds, let’s apply it to the people who think that even though asexual people are a sexual minority, they don’t face ‘as much’ / ‘any’ oppression and are therefore not part of the community… Where does this thinking go? Should we no longer take pride in our ancestors who fought for queer rights once we have those rights in the future? Do we abandon community once we are guaranteed equality? When it no longer serves us?
Thinking that people should go through life individually is the first problem. The queer community is a space for uplifting people who are othered, and loving every part of ourselves. Why the hell wouldn’t asexuals be included?
-sincerely,
an asexual who has been through the discourse, found that it was stupid and terminally online, and logged off
Defining a community by oppression feels like crabs in a pot who grab any crab that’s starting to escape and pull it back down with the rest of them.
The goals of the queer community should be to alleviate and end oppression, but as conditions get better for one group, does that mean they’re less queer? If you are defined by oppression, you cannot end it.
@@Shoulderpads-mcgee I remember I once read this comment on a trans/terf discourse essay that, terfs love to define womanhood as this awful, joyless journey of only missery and discrimination and anyone who hasn't born into it obviously is not qualified enough to be "a woman" because woman=suffering but like... Then why is feminism a thing? Why do we fight for our rights to end discrimination, if womanhood is defined by suffering and misery? then eradicating it wouldnt it mean the death of womanhood itself??
If being queer is defined by misery alone, why do we fight for our rights then? What is all that awareness for?
Is always a really bad idea to define an entire community's worth and legitimacy by how much one suffers. Because then, that means the suffering is never allowed to end in order to maintain the "status quo" and the "purity" of the community
The problem is, when community is built from oppression, oppression is the central identity, the foundations, the lifeblood. And so eventually, everyone's validity within the community starts to get measured in terms of oppression, and people start wanting to set a minimum acceptable level of oppression for membership. This is why, in a hypothetical future where there's no homophobia or transphobia whatsoever, there would be no "LGBTQ+ community" - a community built from oppression dissolves as the oppression is alleviated.
@@yurisei6732 Historically, that isn’t true. There are plenty of communities formed by oppressed people which continue to support each other even after being freed or having fought for their rights. Entire countries even. ( I’d also like to mention that the fight for rights doesn’t stop even once you have them. they need to be kept) If everyone disbanded after achieving their goals, most African countries wouldn’t exist, South Korea wouldn’t exist, Taiwan wouldn’t exist, their would be no queer communities in Denmark, etc.
I personally belong to an organized community which started as a way to relieve local people from poverty and starvation, which now just holds annual barbecues for fun. Communities are a natural state of life.
It's always really hurtful to be told I don't experience oppression as a queer person, but when you told that story of the therapist immediately trying to do conversion therapy on an ace person I almost started questioning myself "did I fill our a survey somewhere?" but the wording was only slightly different from what I got told. I went to therapy for anxiety and my sexuality came up as a tangent and I went "Oh, I'm asexual, don't worry about it." but immediately my therapist started harping on about how that was wrong, it must be my anxiety, it must be my depression, my meds, it must be fixed! and I was like "I don't want to fix it, stop! Stop!"
Or the time an obgyn I was seeing for severe endometriosis pain told me "I've never met someone your age who wasn't sexually active" when I told her I wasn't. She then called me a liar and told me to take a pregnancy test. I had come into the office for severe bladder pain and an inability to control it, so I couldn't produce a sample for her on command and I was in agony, but she choose to berate me and call me a liar instead of offering treatment or assistance. Nevermind that pelvic pain was in my record.
I've considered myself ace before pelvic pain became a big part of my daily life, and it's a bit of a relief. So many people with my same conditions (endometriosis, pelvic inflammatory disease, interstitial cystitis, vaginismus) are extremely and constantly distressed with how all of these affect their sex lives, and that's at least one component I don't have to stress out about as much. As an ace with pelvic dysfunction though I do want to encourage other aces to seek treatment because your pelvic floor is for more than just penetrative sex, trust me you don't want to be incontinent in your 20s, it's absolutely miserable. Though a lot of resources for my conditions also over emphasize the loss of sexual function as if that was the worst part of any of these conditions and downplay the physical pain and fatigue and disability they cause as secondary or minor, which makes me feel more broken. It's a lot.
Avoid oxalates. Those gave me interstitial cystitis. Spinach, sweet potatoes, almonds . . .
The fact that this "doubting of identity" within medicine seems to always be accounts of women's experiences really highlights the continued problems we have with taking women seriously as patients. Within medicine, we have a habit of infantilising women, of deciding for them what their symptoms are, and even what counts as a symptom. We seem to do that far less with men. I'm not a woman, I'm not even particularly a feminist, but that's something that frustrates me immensely. Our most learned, respected people still fall prey to these pathetic biases.
The fact that society's perception of women places higher value on us being sexually available to a man than it does on us not being in pain tells you a lot about what is wrong with society.
When I first started telling people I was ace, I had several people tell me "oh, you must have been sexually abused as a child". I wasn't by the way, but the way people outside of the queer community (if they weren't telling me that it wasn't a real thing) immediately jumped to "she must just have childhood trauma" was kind of frightening. Like, I don't have something you can "fix" or understand better by giving me a tragic backstory, I actually just don't want to have sex with you.
^^^this ToT I remember going to a counselor in college and telling them I identified as ace and they immediately followed up with “oh…were you ever sexually abused?” Like you’d hope for better from a mental healthcare professional but i guess not!
Thank you so much for speaking up about this. I’m aroace, and it took me until my mid-20s to come to terms with my identity because I was so influenced by the “ace discourse” phenomenon. It really did have a lot of harmful effects.
People love labels more than other people at times
I identified as a nonbinary lesbian for almost 10 years, still ended up going on a couple horribly awkward and uncomfortable dates with some straight guys because I'm a people pleaser to my own detriment, and within the last year have finally been coming to terms with the fact that I'm not any more interested in dating or having sex with a woman than I would be with a man or anyone else. I'm 24, have never had sex or been in more than a month long casual relationship. I have no interest in dating and am generally uncomfortable with romantic PDA or the possibility of sex. I deeply do not want to be perceived as a sexual being. But at the same time, I also love fictional romance stories and have both enjoyed and written sexual fictional content. I very often feel like maybe it's all just in my head or a result of trauma and years of isolation, that more therapy would "fix me", that even if it didn't it would be easier and financially practical if I just went out and found a partner I loved enough as a friend to be willing to marry them.
Most aro/ace spaces and discourse online don't really feel like a place where I'm often visible, because I don't relate to the aro/ace people who are completely totally repulsed by sex, or the ones who don't want/understand the appeal of romantic and sexual relationships at all. All of my IRL friends are queer and very accepting of me, but I still don't feel like aroaces have much of a spot at the table when it comes to the conversation of queer liberation in the wider community. IMO it needs to be a more essential topic of discourse, and a more normalized element of queer culture, to simply not want a relationship period. Because that /is fundamentally/ queer, at least in the same way wanting multiple partners is. Western society and culture is not designed for adults to be single or on their own. We should be having that conversation and working to move that needle. But instead we get "aces at pride" discourse and "lol I don't want a girlfriend I want pizza" memes.
It's exhausting. I literally just want to feel fucking normal. I guarantee my homophobic father would rather me marry a woman than never marry anyone at all, which is why I'm infinitely more terrified to come out as aroace than I was to come out as a lesbian. We should be talking about that. Where is that discourse.
Super relatable. I came out as ace a full decade before I came out as aro because I was in denial bc there’s so much stigma around aromanticism specifically and I’m pretty romance favorable all things considered. Pple who believe people are chill with aromanticism have clearly never actually told decent numbers of people that they have no interest in being in a relationships
I know this one line isn't the whole point of what you wrote here, but reading "I deeply do not want to be perceived as a sexual being" made me very happy, I finally have a phrase to put to the feeling.
Like I was always generally sex-repulsed, the concept of it grosses me out, but most especially when anyone mentions involving ME in it. Like it physically sickens me to be sexualized in any way. Can I exist and just not be thought of as sexual in some capacity for simply having a female body, please and thanks
That being said, I'm aware that other people can do what they want and sex is a thing people do sometimes. As long as it doesn't involve me I don't really care.
Still want no part of it though
I agree. I feel like too much of the discourse revolves around the same like 3 topics and isn't even productive. Just people going back and forth where no conclusions are reached, no one benefits, and some are even driven away. in a world where aces aren't often accepted or understood, having a community that's supposed to create a safe space for aces be an exclusive, argumentative, battle-ground makes it seem not all that different from everywhere else.
I think there is actually a name for ace people who enjoy reading and writing about sex. I just can't remember it, But I does exist!
@@Sienisota it's aegosexual
The best quote I saw describe this was: *in a mocking tone** "erm, this sexual minority isn't part of the sexual minority group ☝️🤓" and that perfectly describes the ace exclusion nonsense
An issue I've found with the aroace community online is theres very little movement or sense of tackling tough personal issues with aroace identity.
I see a lot of people say "relationships seem so messy and stupid" etc or straight up having superiority over allos.
And like yeah, relationships do seem tough and full of drama, but people have them for a reason, right?
These responses feel almost childish, like it doesnt address the complexity of romantic or sexual relationships and the value they have and how that relates to platonic relationships.
Because I'm somewhere on the A-spectrum/grey, but I feel lonely, my acesness has really inhibited my ability to find a partner because those feelings are just rarer. And theres so little culture around addressing that, mourning that or solidarity and giving advice.
Its just "allos are so silly caring so much about sex" and "garlic bread"
When I first realised I was ace I grieved beyond belief, but I felt like things would get better and I'd have community but I feel even more isolated and alone.
And this isnt even getting into the financial and social issues of being aroace or single. It all just feels really juvenile and like we're avoiding the elephant in the room.
HARD agree!!!
Memes are fun and all, but when ace spaces are JUST memes and not deeper, more nuanced discussions, it feels less comforting to be in those spaces and more superficial. This is Tumblr, not Target!
It often leaves me wanting for actually tangible emotional support and understanding.
How interesting! Ace/aro here and one thing that kept me from getting especially involved online was it seemed full of demi sexual and grey sexual people and that is all real and valid just not something I could personally relate to. 🤷♀️ Guess that depends where you are online. Sorry your experience seems the other way around.
As an ace/aro who used to have a very very negative view on romantic relationships I can say being around mature people and witnessing healthy relationships really helped turn my opinion around. But I had to be exposed to actual ok or healthy relationships and especially when you're younger that can be super hard to find. It also didn't help I was being exposed to a narrative that said "everyone will leave you or view you as expendable compared to their current romantic partners"
Anyway your loneliness is valid and I am sorry. Romantic and sexual partners can be complex and we do live in a society that expects marriage kids and regular sex. I wish you luck in your romantic pursuits. The main advice I give to those looking for romantic partners is remember you are a whole human unto yourself, take time and don't settle. Take care!
BIG agree here! In the decade or so since I realized that I was aroace, the community topics are still centered largely around explaining us as confusingly as possible to others, making each other feel "valid", and pushing for media rep. Maybe medical biases will come into play as a talking point, but it's usually in terms of "see, we're oppressed too" to aphobes instead of "how to fix this problem". And like you said, they just ignore how much of a financial penalty the world puts on anyone who isn't partnered up (something I'm especially noticing now that I'm in my 40s).
My personal theory is that due to so much of the online ace community skewing towards lifting voices of people in their 20s over most others, they focus on the topics that resonate with that age group. They're less likely to run into having doctors assume you're after a partner/family or dealing with banks that won't lend to you due to being single, so those get ignored in favor of far more frivolous achievements. And there is seemingly no dedicated ace community that exists offline unless you are on a college campus, so you don't have an alternate set of voices & concerns. It's just very frustrating.
What's the elephant in the room? Genuine question because I don't lurk that spaces often.
My guess is many of the aces/aros shaming sexuality and romance are in fact kids, and I say this bc when I was a teenager I felt very ace and was sort of the same: I just didn't understand how people could value something so vulgar, temporary, and alienating, so I distanced myself from it by mocking it. Plot twist, I realized I actually was gay and just super repressed, and over time I grew to understand the other side of the story. My personal issue is that such shaming rhetoric echoes a lot of puritanical, misogynistic, and homophobic talking points and goes largely unchecked
I’m also an ace lesbian and used to be one of those “straight ace people aren’t lgbt” people and the thing that changed my mind was entering the dating scene and having a hard time because of my asexuality and people not liking that(not that they have to, I get why it’s tough for people with the mismatch in sex drives). When I was younger(a teen, I’m 21 now), I felt my asexuality was a trivial detail compared to my lesbianism, but oh boy did dating teach me I’m wrong. Still single btw😔😔😔
I’m sorry that happened to you. I’m in my late 20s and I have to admit I stopped trying to date for a while because it was just too annoying to explain to even women that I’m not sexually attracted to people and no I’m not saying you’re ugly.
Looking back at my teenage years, I wouldn't describe that experience as anything but a stereotypical queer teen experience. I was segregated by straight people because I simply did not experience heterosexuality. I never bonded with other girls by talking about boys or relationships. I did experience homophobia, because I was percieved as queer by straight people. The fact that some queer people think I can't be considered queer because of my asexuality is just crazy.
I'm sex-favorable, demisexual and in a relationship. I have had sex with my partner (less often than we'd like; it's a long-distance relationship so we can only rarely see each other) and enjoyed the experience. I'm still asexual because 99% of the time, I have more in common with aces than allos. A lot of allo culture, especially in fandom spaces, revolves around how hot certain people are, and I do not relate to that in the slightest.
I am glad someone mentioned it (the fandom stuff). I don't feel attracted to real people, so I'm lost when people find fictional characters hot. Sometimes, they really don't make their case (hello Tumblr sexymen😂😂).
im ace and demi-aro and married to a straight man. its so hard to be understood as queer, especially in the southern US, as the most positive recognition i get is my husband has 'an energy of a man with a bi wife'. i cling to any aroace friendships i make because im freed from the convos about whats attractive in a person.
@lydiasims6412 speaking of friends, how many aroace friends have ya made, online and irl?
@@yourhorseyepona7309 not many online, i've met several through my several years in graduate school and at research conferences/queer networking events and we've kept in touch over social media/text. i also came out in college, but a few of my college friends i kept around came out somewhere on the aroace spectrum. in the conservative southern US, im careful to come out around groups who are more likely to be okay with queer identities (very proud liberal/non traditional religious people living in the south). it isnt easy to meet ace people, but ive been pushing to meet people and be out in some capacity when i feel safe (im always out as ace, not as much as my demi-aro/gender identity), and ive found people and been connected to ace people they know. unfortunately ive faced some acephobia or a weird neutrality/non acceptance, but i still fall back on my friends who are supportive even if they aren't queer.
Same "I'm still asexual" situation but also completely opposite here lol : I don't have sex, I've never felt attracted to people of any gender even the pretty ones, I've never felt romantically involved either, but I still enjoy romance entertainment very much and I feel some kind of attraction to fictional characters. I'm still asexual too because it doesn't reflect in any way in real life. Damn you 1978 Clark Kent/Superman for confusing me !
I'm someone who's somewhere on the aro-allo spectrum. I'm genderqueer and identified as a lesbian for a lot of my life. I think a lot of my aromanticism and occasional sex repulsion comes from childhood trauma, so I rarely speak up in aro-allo or aro-ace spaces for fear of delegitimizing the struggles of people who fight for as you called it, the "born this way," view of asexuality. I spend time with a lot of friends on the aro-ace spectrum who mostly didn't go through that kind of trauma. I think viewing the multiplicity and intensity of friendships and QPRs and different forms of love speak only to what queer liberationists have fought for. Sexuality and gender can be fluid and we are so afraid of that. I do not love that I went through trauma, but I do love loving people in queer, atypical ways. I love seeing asexual people and aromantic people sort out what kinds of connections bring them joy, whether or not they see me as one of them :)
I dream of the day when everyone will feel safe and supported enough to embrace that fluidity. It's so beautiful and honest!
I'm so sorry you've felt excluded from aro spaces. For what it's worth, as an aroace who hasn't experienced that kind of trauma, I don't think we gain anything from excluding people who have. Sexuality and romantic orientation are more complicated than simply nature or simply nurture. We don't gain anything from gatekeeping our own community in this way to try to be perceived as legitimate by people who will never truly accept us. You and I are equally aro and I hope someday that's a universally accepted truth 💚
Honestly this is something that those who have trauma need to talk about, like I'm allo and romantic, I avoid relationships because frankly I'm afraid bc of my trauma with CSA, like I have the desire I experience the attraction, it's just that I don't feel like I am in the safe enough headspace for that and honestly, that's OK. Like my identity shouldn't be gaged on how much experience I have in those fields and the fact I do feel attraction is enough, like I'm not any less of a bisexual because I'm not in a relationship, if that makes sense. Like trauma only affects how we engage with and view things, it doesn't change attraction, like someone isn't going to become a lesbian because something bad happened to them, it might change their views on relationships with men, but it doesn't make them magically attracted to women instead
@@GraveyardMaiden Except there are plenty of people who's attraction does change, either just over time or because of something like trauma. Otherwise terms like erasromantic, erassexual, caedoromantic and caedosexual wouldn't exist - enough people have this experience that those terms exist and just because it isn't the experience you have doesn't mean other's can't have had that experience.
@@aodh7 My friend when you talk to those people, you find out that 1) they're mixing up repulsion/ aversion for lack of attraction or 2) are getting out of some comp-het/ allo/romantic tendencies. Because let's be real in this society asexuality is misconstrued as lack of sexual engagement, and people are taught that being hetero or being in romantic/sexual relationships is the default that they must fit into. SECONDLY the whole "trauma changes sexuality" is debunked conversion therapy nonsense that mental health professionals tell folks that only retraumatizes survivors bc it constantly makes them have to relive their trauma as part of their identity.
If anything: The non ace queer people should understand why we should be included, because like them, we aren't accept as 'regular/normal' either by the 'default' either. We too face weird hardships no reason. I am baffled that this is still remotely a discussion in 2024.
We are definitely considered strange, odd, a perversion of the "norm," which is an actual and older definition of the word "queer." So...
When I was just barely starting to figure myself out as an ace person, I asked my therapist (who I got along great with) if she could council me about my orientation, to which she readily agreed. I then proceeded to tell her about my experience and how I was questioning that I might be ace, all while watching her attitude change drastically to one that was very cold. Our conversation ended abruptly on the note of “Asexuality isn’t a real and the people who call themselves that label are confused”. I knew what I was experiencing was real, but it totally shut down any potential council and help I could have received (and needed! I felt alone and lost about it at the time) because I recognized that THIS was not a safe person to discuss it with. I figured it all out ok in the end, but it did take me an additional 3 years and I really wish I had ANYONE to turn to and guide me during that time... Professional medical and mental health spaces are where activism and destigmatizing is still needed the most I would argue.
As a very horny aroace, the chronically online discourse surrounding asexuality really annoys me to no end. If one is online so much, why spend so much time fighting about how fellow queers are experiencing their sexuality, go and play a game or watch a movie or something. Do something positive for once in your life.
I was a victim of sa and had a restrictive eating disorder throughout my teens when most people develop feelings of sexual attraction and illness. I'm disabled and experience chronic pain. I don't know if I was asexual before all this, I don't know if I will continue to be asexual when I become further away from these traumas, when my chronic illnesses are better managed. I'll never know whether I was born this way or not. but right now, asexuality and demiromanticism and the more specific terms below them (like sex repulsed) give me language to describe my experiences and my boundaries, they fit as my identity. I'd like to think that's enough to be valid.
Thanks so much for this analysis! As a white, cis ace woman, I've basically felt excluded everywhere.
I was rejected by my friends because I hadn't 'grown up' (read: expressed sexual interests in those of the opposite sex) like they had, so for me, my asexuality has always been distinctly queer. Thanks in large part to the vitriol aimed at asexuals by queer people at the height of the ace-discourse I'm still not sure if I'm welcome at places like Pride, to the point that I either don't go, or don't specify what my identity is. And now that I have a (cis male) partner, I'm faced with those within the community who feel I'm not ace enough because we sleep together - even though I feel more sure of my asexuality than ever. Even in feminist spaces, I've been treated with hostility when arguing that maybe sexual liberation should not just be about being able to have more sex without judgement, but also the freedom to not be seen as sexually available at all.
If this is true for me, I can only imagine what it must be like for people with less privilege than I do.
My personal stance is: if asexuality as a term helps you in any way, feel free to use it. I don't care if you later decide that the label isn't for you, or you don't want to use the label at all, if we as a community can support you, you're welcome. I always compare labels to cats and boxes: if the cat decides to sit in a box, let it be. But never, ever decide to cram a cat in a box it doesn't want to be in.
As someone who has described the labels I picked for myself as “boxes I was trapped inside”, I love the cat metaphor at the end! Definitely going to use it from now on
@@dinosinthefuture I'm so glad! It has really helped me explain things :)
If a therapist told me they'd talk me out of asexuality, I'd stop everything and just stubbornly argue with them over it. Ain't no one talking me outta shit and I'll defend myself to the death. Worst case scenario, I'd walk out that office and demand my money back for time wasted.
I think I’d ask them to repeat themselves, and once they did I’d walk out of the office not to return. They clearly aren’t qualified to deal with me yet and I’d let them know. I have just lost my patience with some people.
@@xtrff2024 Fair. I'm just typically a more argumentative type person, so I wouldn't mind making a bit of a scene.
That’s fine, but not everyone has that option. Teens and children jump to mind, as do people who are being treated for other “serious” psychiatric disorders and are forced to do therapy. If you’re already labelled as “mentally ill”, many providers treat you as an unreliable narrator by default. Not being believed about sexuality or gender is sadly just a reality for mentally ill and disabled people.
@@lousielouise8716 I was in therapy for having a psychotic break from reality, if my therapist said that shit, I'd still fight them on it. She assumed I'd want a partner, I told her no, and she dropped that line of inspection and didn't return to it that I can recall. I also was a stubborn as fuck child and it was a struggle to ever get me to do anything I didn't want to do. My mom gave up on most things that didn't matter. I've always been extremely strong willed.
exactly! its incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to make someone like something or to convince something they are one way. eventually theyll fall out of the told behavior. as long as they have no interest in or reason for changing, a person will not change. id say its more harmful to try and get someone to change if they dont want it.
I'm going to be real as a CSA survivor the whole "Ace because of trauma" is deeply rooted in conversion therapy rhetoric, a lack of understanding of mental health and trauma, as well as holding up toxic views on sex being a goal post that people have to cross to be valid in their sexuality. Secondly there's a difference between having a lack of libido/ in ability to engage in sex and lack of attraction. Like people with trauma or medical conditions CAN get help to aid them to be able to engage in their attraction through therapy, meds or engaging in different forms of sex. None of that stuff will give people attraction, it can increase labido, or allow people to engage with sex, but it will not give people attraction trying that on someone who's ace is like trying to turn an apple into an orange. That said just like how we shouldn't gage asexuality based on celibacy you shouldn't gage allosexaulity around sexual experience/ engagement
the way i try to think about identities is that they are clouds, there are things that are very clearly "part of the cloud" and "not part of the cloud" but clouds are fluffy and vaporous there is quite alot of blurry areas on the borders that are kinda apart of the cloud but also kinda not.
in fact whether something is apart of the cloud is mostly just arbitrary line drawing.
however you end up defining the border of the cloud there will be at least someone who disagrees with you.
it's not that lines are useless, but they should be acknowledged as vague and malleable.
as a gnc lesbian i've always stood strong w asexual/aromantic folks online bc if i get called a "he/him lesbian" by some random instagram 19 year old instead of being respected as butch (my identity) one more time i'll go postal. it's entitlement, it's people believing they can control how someone else exists. asexual people are seen as "not ordinary" by a heteronormative society just like more "common" queer identities. it's not meant to be us vs each other, it's us vs the people that bring us down.
Last year, I was watching Heartstopper, and I realized I related to Isaac. It was the first time I felt that way about an ace character or even personal accounts of real-life asexuality. For me it was a tipping point based on years of emotions I hadn't really known how to label.
For one thing, I am someone with trauma and disability informing my sexuality. I'm Autistic, and I realized it as an adult, after years of sensory discomfort--that in the modern day has me often feeling overstimulated by positive emotions as well as sexual touch. I was also touched and treated inappropriately by a lot of people growing up, never able to really set my own boundaries.
After some research, I've decided to identify as aceflux. My sexual urges and interpretations range from repulsion to what I perceive as my "normal" depending on the day. It's been really freeing to explore my strange, morphing sexuality in a way that makes me feel less _to blame_ for everything.
I definitely think every person's experience is unique to them and deserves to be treated with that level of care. I want the grace for others that I am able to give myself.
Kinda reminds me of the "Bi" vs "Pan" discourse. Defensive othering can probably be attributed to most discourse occuring within marginalised communities, imo.
The scarcity mindset is a horrific problem. Our resources are ironically so limited because we are divided. If we were collectively making demands, we would TAKE what is needed for everyone in community, from those limiting and causing harm. That's what Stonewall was about, that's what solidarity is about
I do consider myself asexual. Sex isn't necessary and I'm not out here going ooh, sexy I want to sleep with them. I've gone 24 years with no sexual interaction, that includes kissing. I think it's just something you do with your partner to feel special.
Same. I view sex as one, of many, forms of intimacy one might share with a Partner.
I'm 18 and honestly I just have no interest.Maybe if I was in a relationship, but I doubt it.
SO REAL
Same here. I got nothing against my friends, but I can't relate to how seriously they take their sex lives.
@@itsme-bm7xbYou might awaken that longing once you find someone youre genuinely attracted to. I never felt that urge at all into my near late 20s until I found someone that genuinely attracted me more for her personality but all in all its not something I feel like Im starved for but any form of intimacy with someone you love always is nice.
Just chiming in to add to the voices saying this discourse has turned them away from self-discovery. I’m not asexual, but I’m suspicious I may be aromantic and simply never realized it because it was never talked about in my circles. Over the years I’ve tried to dip my toes into exploring aroace spaces and discussions but I immediately get hit with Level 4 Discourse every single time. Most recently it was last week when I was trying to do more research into aromanticism and others experiences with it. There was nastiness everywhere I turned and once again I’m taking a step back from it because it’s just exhausting.
Hope you'll find yourself. I am of no help since I am sure that I never even had one crush.
Sorry you had this experience! That really sucks. I do feel like aromanticism is even less understood and respected than asexuality. It took me so long to come across the word and then determine that yes, it does apply to me (I'm aro-ace). I do feel a lot of relief and comfort being able to say I'm aro after many confusing years of not wanting to date but wanting an affectionate intimate partnership. There are some cute couples on CZcams in QPRs, I wonder if that would be a less-exhausting entry point if you ever feel like dipping a toe in?
Sending you a lot of support as someone who primarily identifies as aromantic. I got really lucky because I first heard the word and the split-attraction model in DMs with a friend, and didn’t do a lot of research into the topic but instead just sat with the definitions of the terms. Every time I tried to look into it I was floored by the vitriol and often juvenility surrounding the term and was so utterly frustrated I just decided to remove myself from the space. However, the reality is that the word is the best one to describe my life experience, and to the very few people I’ve come out to, that’s who I describe myself. It took me about 6 months of sitting with it and a lot of grieving/acceptance to even come to that point, and it’s taken years to even consider being minimally public about my identity. Unfortunately, even today there’s a lot of vitriol and negativity surrounding these things in online spaces. However, the way I feel, it’s important to have language to describe myself and my experience regardless of how some nitwit I don’t even know on the internet feels about my self-expression. It’s not affecting their life. Using “aromantic” has really helped me accept who I am and give me a different framework for my life that would have been impossible and caused a ton of harm if I hadn’t had it.
I discovered asexuality on tumblr about 2 months before the internet decided it didn't like them. I had the "baby gay" moment of being really excited that there was a word and community for how I felt and who I was. Then it was ripped away in unnecessary cruelty. But I still saw posts about gays and lesbians getting to enjoy their "baby gay" moment and general queer positivity. And being 16 years old with no family and friends in the real world and all of the Ace community gone underground, how am I still alive. Why even. I got really, really angry in an unhealthy manner. I still don't tell people I'm Ace and I'm 25, they don't believe me, they refuse to care. Relationships are impossible (also I live in Texas) when there's this sexual expectation and when you're Demisexual people really don't want to hear it. I've had sex with people! I just don't want to have sex with someone who doesn't care if I live or die I can't do it and I don't have that "spark" to WANT to get to know someone when we meet. It takes me awhile to be like, "hmmmmmm maybe?" But by that time the person is gone. Does anybody want to organically build a relationship anymore or do we have to be married tommorow I can't handle it anymore
I am a 24 year old demiromantic demisexual Enby. I've ao far been in 3 relationships, one was a QPR with my best friend at the time who was also aroace. We were "girlfriends" for about three weeks before deciding that a different title fit us better.
The more normal relationships I have been in were both straight appearing with men who I had known and been good friends with for 1 or more years before we started dating. That's kinda the only way I can imagine eer dating anyone, I tried to go on a date with a guy who asked me out right after meeting once, and that is _not the vibe for me_
All of these people I met just living my life and making friends, I think that's the only way I could imagine having any kind of long-term relationship.
do i understand the question is about more than just "can they be at pride"? Yes. Is my answer to should ace people be at pride "how are you going to stop me?" Also yes.
Well, for what it's worth, I say you're most welcome. I suppose the only thing I'd caution is, well, that little anecdote about college LGBT centers banning any PDAs in case it made an ace uncomfortable, it's probably good to remember that there there's a lot of LGBT people not able to relax about holding hands anywhere else or something cause people are 'uncomfortable looking at it.' ....I can see that rubbing people the wrong way, not that 'makeout session' would be the right atmosphere either. I just remember my college LGBT center being a place where people could act naturally and I'd be particularly sruck by people napping there together cause their own dorms weren't safe for that.
@@OllamhDrab what college was that???
Pride is just generally kinda mid idk if ace people wanna be there
I love seeing the ace group at the parade the only time I’ve been. I’ve only been out 2 Perth prides 😊.
@@OllamhDrabSince when is hand holding PDA????
Canton Winer’s work on Gender Detachment has been immensely helpful in my own gender journey. I’ve never felt tied to my gender, but always felt apathetic about doing anything to change my identity or appearance. It’s literally a non-issue, and doing anything to assert an agender identity would make it BECOME a public issue in a way that’s antithetical to the whole point of it not being something I engage with. It’s great to know how many aces out there feel the same way.
WAIT that is an ace thing?? My self-discovery actually started with me questioning my gender at 16 (after some acquaintances had come out as trans and had taught me a lot), but I quickly realized I didn't mind my body or being perceived as female per say, mainly the expectations that came with it (of being sexual, wanting to show your body and be seen as attractive, and perceiving others' bodies in certain ways). Thank you for bringing up this concept, it makes a lot of sense to me :0
I look forward to sending this to everyone who will all tell me to stop looking at stuff like this and instead just go out and hook up instead of accepting that I have no interest on a sexual relationship...
0:13 Speaking of gay penguins, Paul Castle has ‘The Pengrooms’ and ‘The Secret Ingredient’
Omg I love Paul and Matthew and their dog Maple!
Paul's books got banned recently, so gotta throw all the support we can 😭😭❤️❤️
@@MillyKKitty The update is that his books were sold out
It really does make me happy to no end that I am seeing so many in the asexual community speaking out in support of orientation/identity as fluid. My romantic/sexual orientation has changed over the years not as a result of experiencing trauma, but processing it and integrating it. I celebrate that. Proud of my community for being able to have these discussions and take on new ideas.
i identify as bisexual now, but when this discourse was HUGE on youtube and twitter, i identified as asexual, and MAN I do not miss this discussion being at the forefront of my feed. i know a friends mom whos demisexual but heteroromantic, and she actively rejects being placed in the LGBT community (shes an incredible ally, dont worry, her son / my friend is asexual and biromantic, and trans, and shes so incredibly supportive and understanding of him). the door is open for asexual people, but, like most labels and communities, choosing it and defining it is up to the individual person.
I don't like the idea that the queer community should be accessible only to those who suffer because of their queerness. Call me an idealist, but I think we should define ourselves by something other than our capacity to suffer.
Frankly not even all queer folks do “suffer” I had supportive family and didn’t really have stuf happen to me. Doesn’t mean laws can’t magically not affect me though
whats the queer community? There's the gay community and lesbian community.
@ladygrey4113 exactly, I've grown up with a loving family and good support group of friends but I also know I need to worry to make sure my future self won't have to suffer either
I agree. To live is not to suffer.
New sub lables! Ace by experience, ace by birth, ace by circumstance, and ace by nunya! Most would be nunya, because nunya business is a pricacy setting.
i snorted so hard i hit my head (my coworker now knows im ace)
And in the circumstance bracket, we have the intermittent or temporary ace. I went for about five years after I became disabled with flat zero interest in sex. Not the first time that's happened in my life and then it came back, but it lasted so long I thought it was permanent this time - which would actually be very convenient as a middle aged single disabled woman with adult kids, because finding a partner is vanishingly unlikely.
Now an interest in sex is creeping back into my life, but it's not what it was when I was young and abled and wanting another baby. And if I managed to bring someone home for that purpose, I don't even know if I'd have the energy to do anything with them anyway. Also the two people I find attractive that way both live on other continents, so there's that.
Give it another five years and I have no idea where it'll be at.
Can't we all just get along??? Like bro. I no want sex. Why that issue????
Because many allo queers have unresolved issues that they look at folks who don’t experience sexual attraction or interest and project their own insecurities on us as if we’re the ones saying it. Similar to homophobic men who panic that men find them attractive when literally nobody talked to them there was just a gay man in the same room.
In the perfect world, the difference between an ace man and a gay man would be the same as the difference between an ace man and a straight man.
I think the root of many many issues in our world, including this one, is that some would rather us all be the same and/or refuse to merely accept those that are different from them and focus on their own lives. maybe it's also partly needless meddling and misplaced empathy.
15:04 my problem with these examples is that they talk about libido, not sexual attraction, so I feel like part of this argument is adding confusion to what the concept of asexuality is.
(not to say that the people in these examples aren't asexual of course, that's not my place. Just talking about the possible confusion around the definition of sexual attraction vs libido, since these are often just tied together for people when really they're two separate concepts)
@@kristenbarho7463 I totally agree with you that attraction and libido signify different things going on inside a person, and the allosexual world all too often forgets that they are not entangled by default in every person. However, I also want to point out:
As an anegosexual who experiences what *I* would call sexual attraction, but has Absolutely Zero desire for acting on said attraction, and am repulsed by the idea of engaging in sexual activity with others, the emphasis on "attraction" as the dividing line between asexual and allosexual should be reexamined. It may be true for most people who identify as ace, but not all. If we make a distinction between libido and attraction, we should also be able to make a distinction between how sexuality manifests in our thoughts and how it manifests in our behavior, i.e. how we engage with sexuality outwardly, with our society.
@@experimentalwrites3403I always go with, labels are to be useful. If its useful to call yourself asexual then do it. I knew a guy online who called himself bi because he enjoyed sex with both men and women. even though he was only attracted to men it didn't gross him out to have sex with women, so even though he is technically homosexual it was more useful to consider himself bi.
@@experimentalwrites3403"anegosexual"
Well that's enough Internet for today
It feels like in order to make your “both sides” framing work you’ve picked out a version of inclusionism that isn’t actually very inclusive. It’s entirely possible to believe the asexual community belongs under the queer umbrella just as much as the gay, bi, and trans communities do, while also believing the ace label should be broad and fluid and include all those varied facets of aceness you described. We can be inclusionist without forcing a “born this way” narrative on asexuals (in fact rejecting people who become asexual later in life wouldn’t be very inclusive); we also don’t need to insist someone must be “born this way” to be gay or bi or trans. And yeah, if an individual ace person doesn’t consider themself queer that’s totally fine; the same should be true if a gay person doesn’t consider themself queer, or a bi person or a trans person etc.
Great points about the "gatekeeping" and born this way narrative. I ... honestly hadn't thought about that aspect much because when someone describes themself as asexual, I just accept them. I don't need to know how or when or why someone came to the conclusion they are ace because it's not *my* job to decide who is or isn't *however-they-identify*. I think it's quite gross for people to speculate or try to figure out a persons personal "aceness" or discredit them for not being "born this way", you wouldn't do that to other kinds of queer people, aceness is no different, there shouldn't be an extra barrier to that identity.
This discourse literally drove me off of tumblr. I just could not take the cognitive dissonance of people who spoke on end about how dangerous and scary it is to ever say "no" to a man would turn around and say that asexuals couldn't possibly be facing any danger due to them being ace.
Same. I also do not understand why "I am not straight, because I am not attracted to anyone" is such a difficult concept to grasp.
@@vesnafall right?! In this marriage/child rearing obsessed society how??? How do they not get it???
@@arurora5474 It's a mystery A MYSTERY I TELL YA.
38:53 this bit reminds me so much of the discourse about respectability politics particularly in the trans community, and how we need to present as "normal" or "cis passing" or whatever, lest we be "complicit" in our own discrimination. it's ironic how, in a movement revolving around not necessarily fitting into the norm and that fact being okay, people make this point, especially as appeasing the phobes doesn't make them respect us.
True.
To relate it back to ace discourse, it doesn't quite fit to me because I want the clarification for clarity's sake. There's no confusion over what a tiger is. There no confusion over the general idea of the color blue - maybe specific shades/hues could lean a little more purple or green, but the majority of the time, we know what blues look like, even if there can be a wide variety. To me, a person who craves and desires sex for the sake of the sex itself is more like saying orange is blue.... they are diametrically opposed, it can't work; they make a muddy brown, not blue. You can't make orange blue by any stretch of the imagination. No shade of orange will be blu-ish and no shade of blue will be orange-ish.
I couldn't care less what aphobes would think of what constitutes an ace person, I have a simple litmus test: If you can imagine your life without sex and that seems ideal to you, you're ace. I don't care how you got that way, how long you've been that way, or if you tried out sex just to make sure you truly don't feel you need it, or you had some other external reason for having it, if it's not ideal for you, but you're willing to compromise for external reasons, you still count as ace to me because inherently, you don't need it to feel complete in life.
Aphobes can go eff themselves. I want the clarity for my own sake and for the sake of people who want some actual answers not some flowery "whatever you decide feels right~~" like... no, straight, gay, bi/pan and ace are like the four cardinal directions of sexuality. Having a clear roadmap to things can really help people out. I don't want people stumbling around in confusion, or thinking they can desire sex for literally exactly all the same reasons allos want sex and still go around calling themselves ace like that makes any sense. I don't want confusion or misinformation to spread, and I don't believe aphobes are the only ones spreading misinfo. It's the misinfo I don't like, not .... not looking presentable to people who are dingbats anyways.
@@thekarret2066Asexuality has nothing to do with not wanting sex. Someone CAN want sex and be ace, because like every other sexuality, it's about your attraction, not your actions. They can even prefer a life with sex than a life without. Ace just means experiencing no sexual attraction or, in terms of the umbrella term, experiencing it in limited amounts or under limited circumstances. There's a billion reasons an ace could want sex.
A lesbian is still a lesbian regardless of having had or not had sex with women, of wanting or not wanting it, because they have the sexual (and romantic) attraction to women. And the same goes for the other sexualities, including ace. An ace is still an ace if they have sex or not, if they want sex or not. The only thing that defines a sexuality is attraction.
You can not want aces "desiring sex and going around calling themselves ace" all you want, but your biases don't make that person not ace.
@@aodh7 The definition of sexual attraction is desiring sexual contact with another person.... if someone actively wants sex, they are experiencing sexual attraction.
"Sexual attraction is attraction on the basis of sexual desire or the quality of arousing such interest." - aka if you desire to connect sexually with a person, you are experiencing sexual attraction towards them, even if you don't think they LOOK particularly appealing, which is AESTHETIC attraction, NOT sexual attraction.
Perhaps they have no romantic attraction, perhaps no aesthetic attraction.... but they ARE experiencing sexual attraction if they need sex to be fulfilled in life.
For us having all this split attraction model shit, it sure is wild how people can't comprehend that someone can be allo and not have other forms of attraction.... Fucking wild.
And then I get called biased. I'm working off the frameworks we and the community itself built.
I've also given a LOT of examples of how an ace can want sex for external reasons and still be ace, so good job acting like I'm shutting out every ace who ever has sex. Not fucking listening to me.
I'm merely saying if you have an inherent desire for partnered sex, that's sexual attraction and thus you are not ace if you have such an inherent desire.
@@thekarret2066 Yeah sexual attraction is attraction "on the basis of sexual desire", meaning that person A seeing/interacting with person B and feeling sexual desire for them is them feeling sexual attraction, and person B "arousing such [sexual] interest" in person A means that person A is experiencing sexual attraction to them. Notice how the definition you provided of sexual attraction involves person A being sexually aroused BY and/or feeling sexual desire FOR person B. It isn't that actively wanting sex means that you are experiencing sexual attraction. It's if a person causes you to have sexual desire FOR them, if they cause you to be sexually aroused BY them, then you are feeling sexual attraction. I never said anything about it having to do with how someone looks so I don't know why you're assuming I'm confused about the difference in sexual and aesthetic attraction, and why you're being so rude about it.
Someone needing sex to be fulfilled doesn't mean they're feeling sexual attraction at all. Someone can need sex in life to be fulfilled for a million reasons and still never feel sexual desire for a person or sexual arousal because of a person.
I also never said anything to suggest I don't think someone could be allo and not have other forms of attraction, so again i don't know why you're being so rude about it.
And yeah I will call you biased, because you're misusing the definition of sexual attraction and of asexuality to say that people who are ace aren't ace, just because you don't like them being considered ace. You were the one who said you don't like misinformation, so I'm just correcting the misinformation that you were spreading that has the potential to harm aces.
You've given examples of these "external reasons" where? Because in the comment I replied to there was not a single example. All you said was that aces can't want sex, which is untrue, and that there may be "external reasons" that they have sex. Fair point that my comment does imply that you were shutting out any ace that has had sex, since I did include the lines about "having sex or not", while you did mention aces can have sex and therefore clearly weren't doing that. My intention was to show that both action (by saying "having sex") AND desire (by saying "wanting sex") does not equal sexual attraction (being sexually aroused by a person/feeling sexual desire for a person), but evidently I didnt do that well, so my apologies there for implying you were shutting out aces who have had sex when you didn't. The rest of my comment still stands, because a person wanting sex does not equal sexual attraction. An ace can want sex and still be ace - there are reasons aces want sex that have nothing to do with feeling sexual desire for a person or being sexually aroused by them.
I am listening to you and I'm hearing you misuse the definition of sexual attraction. If someone wants partnered sex, that isn't sexual attraction. Again, by the definition you provided, sexual attraction is feeling sexual desire for and/or sexual arousal because of the object of that attraction. An ace can want partnered sex for a multitude of reasons and still never feel sexual desire for or sexual arousal because of the person they have chosen to have sex with. There is a difference between 1) wanting sex and 2) wanting sex with a specific person because that specific person arouses you/makes you sexually desire them.
Again a lesbian is still a lesbian regardless of if they want sex with women or not, because either way they still feel the sexual (and romantic) attraction to women. An ace is still an ace regardless of if they want sex or not, because either way they don't feel sexual attraction - they want sex for some other reason than their sexual partner being sexually arousing/sexually desireable to them.
@@aodh7 And what is sexual desire? "Sexual desire is an emotion and motivational state characterized by an interest in sexual objects or activities, or by a drive to seek out sexual objects or to engage in sexual activities" So if someone experiences a drive to seek out sexual activities, they are experiencing sexual desire, and if they are orienting that towards partnered sex with one or more people, those people are the objects of their sexual desire, thus they are sexually attracted to the person/people they are having sex with. I believe aces can have an absence of this interest or motivational state, but still engage in sex for external reasons - for their partner's benefit, to have kids, to pay the bills [sex work], and things like that and still totally be a valid ace. But if you have the drive to seek out sexual activities with another person, that's sexual desire, upon which sexual attraction is based, therefore is not ace. The only exceptions to this are the graces/demis who only RARELY experience this [like one a year or once every few years to needing to spend a long time forming a deep emotional bond with someone before the potentiality for the desire to kick in] as fitting in the spectrum because more often than not, they don't experience this and thus relate more to the ace experience than not.
I'm frustrated that people don't seem to be considering the possibility because they'd rather claim asexuality than be allo and maybe anaesthetic or aromantic and allo. If it comes off as rude that's not really directed at you, it's general frustration. I also have a tendency towards forward bluntness that can come across as rude.
How. How can you need sex and think that's not sexual desire? What's the difference between sexual desire and needing sex to be fulfilled in life?
I refer to my previous comment about the rudeness, also I'm not saying YOU specifically, but it seems like people in general, who are poorly educated, are latching onto the idea of asexuality without fully exploring all the different attraction types and are using inappropriate labels to describe their experiences, and it leads to unhelpful chaos where we need visibility and coordination to raise awareness that this is a legit thing. If people are being so blase and willy nilly with these terms, without fully understanding them themselves, how do you expect the general public to become properly educated on asexuality and all of its nuances? I just watched a video where some chick called herself "sex-positive" when she meant "sex-favorable" and that bothers me as someone who is "sex-positive" in that I think sex is fine and healthy and awesome for people who want to have it, but I do not under any circumstances want it, but she used it to mean that she's willing to compromise and have sex, but that term is actually "sex-favorable." Mistakes like this are extremely important. It's spreading lies and misinformation about asexuality and that's not helping us, just because there are more people incorrectly appropriating the term for themselves when they aren't properly educated on what the terms mean.
I guess I'll wait for your response on how is sexual desire different from needing sex to be fulfilled in life to be able to respond to you saying I'm spreading misinfo. I don't believe I am. There are multiple aces, who've been in the community for over a decade just like I have, who agree with me, so clearly I'm not the only one.
Thank you for acknowledging that. I don't like being misconstrued as some "gold stars only" type of ace; I know life is messier than that, and just like how gay people can start het families because of comphet reasons, so too can an ace person, before realizing they're true sexuality. Some might even feel like they need to have a lot of sex before they fully understand what the hullabaloo about sex is, and after having it, still don't get it and finally decide they've done as suggested and "tried it" and it didn't work. That's another external reason that makes total sense to me.
I'm still gonna need to wait to see about the answer to how sexual desire differs from needing sex to have a fulfilled life, as that is the crux of our disagreement. To me, it sounds like someone wanting as much sex as an allo wants sex for literally all the same reasons that an allo wants sex and I cannot see how there is a difference between that and an allo person. It sounds like calling the color red "green actually".
So explain to me what that difference is because I don't see it. Just like that meme from The Office, to me, it's the same picture. I don't see how it's not allosexuality but with a lack of aesthetic attraction, or a lack of romantic attraction, instead of a lack of sexual attraction.
And how is a lesbian a lesbian if she doesn't want sex with women? Unless you mean a homoromantic woman, in which case, that's fair, but I'm talking in the sexual orientation specifically, how is a woman homosexual if she doesn't sexually desire women? If she doesn't have herself a "type" of woman that she likes or finds herself consistently drawn to, how is she a lesbian? If she isn't sleeping with women, she can still be a lesbian, but that doesn't mean she doesn't WANT to sleep with them. It simply means she doesn't have the availability to or have her type around to be willing to pursue a relationship that she inherently wants and would be miserable without.
And again, agreeing to having sex for external reasons, like the ones I laid out throughout this comment, doesn't mean that in their ideal world, if they could completely control everything - including their partner's level of sexual interest - that they wouldn't choose to not have sex. My personal litmus test for asexuality is, in your ideal world, would you be content with never having sex again for the rest of your life? If the answer is "yes" - even if reality doesn't reflect the ideal, if you'd ideally want that, you count. If the answer is "no, I would be miserable if I could never have sex again" I fail to see how that qualifies as ace.
Also I liked your comment, because although you disagree with me, you're being fair and actually engaging with me instead of trying to talk down to me, at least so far, so I appreciate that.
As an aroace cis woman, being considered queer has always been super important to me in a way that's hard to articulate. I think some of it was learning about my identity online (at the height of the ace discourse) and so desperately wanting people to understand how deeply not heterosexual I was. I think a lot of that also came from growing up in the suburban southern US in a softy homophobic Christian community, where it was just really important to me not to have to partner a man and to understand (esp. for myself) that my experience was real and not imaginary.
More recently, I've gotten into a relationship with another aroace woman and we use traditional language like girlfriend bc it's the easiest way to explain things to people. And that has been so weird, bc now folks essentially read me as a lesbian where before they read me as straight and there's this strange mixture of that being validating and also being weirdly erasing. Because before it was their assumptions of heteronomativity shaping their perception of me, but now I'm actively describing myself and my relationship in not quite accurate ways for the sake of simplicity. I think it's esp. complicated because I've always been super comfortable in my asexual identity but have really struggled with aromanticism, in part because it felt like there was even more stigma and less representation as an aro person than an ace one. And now being read as in a relationship feels like an explicit denial of my aromanticism (which is not wholly accurate, but is my emotional experience). So queer has always felt like this safe, ambiguous word where all of me fits but I didn't need a power point presentation no one asked for to explain myself and it's also never been a word I felt totally comfortable using as a cis, fairly femme woman.
On the other side of things, two of my best friends are demi women (generally) attracted to men and have always identified, generally, as straight. Their aceness and straight(ish)ness has always made sense to me.
All of that to say that humans are inherently messy and queer identities are inherently messy and aceness is inherently messy and I'm very grateful for the nuance of this video, although it's exactly what I expected.
Edit:fixed typos
I relate to this so much!!! A few years behind you, but I hope I will also find a platonic relationship. It's been hard but rewarding to get to a place where I can say, "I just don't want that," and "I really want this" and taking myself out of hetero- and amatonormativity has been really crucial. I wholeheartedly agree that we're all messy, and should be, and at the same time finding the identity "aroace" feels like a place to rest and feel whole.
I think one of the consequences of this discourse, at least for me, is that I fundamentally can't identify with the asexual orientation anymore. I call myself queer, but don't know where I fit anymore-- or if i fit at all. In order to feel accepted in LGBTQ circles, I tend not to get into the specifics of my sexuality.
Also, a lot of resources about asexuality insist that you, the questioning person, are not broken. But I've always felt fractured. A part of me wants to be "fixed" so I won't end up alone as everyone around me pairs off with "their person" while the other part knows that's wrong. I've been on a medication since I was 14 that has a low sex drive as a side effect which has led me to always wonder whether I was "born this way" or if I'm just the result of an anti-depressant side effect, as well. My guess is a lot of people that fall under the asexual umbrella don't feel like they were born with this relationship with sex and sexuality.
Absolutism has been harmful to my own relationship with sexuality and I think asexuality definitely has relevant intersections with health issues, trauma, and societal expectations (western, in this regard) that should be considered when engaging/understanding this "discourse."
Anyways, sorry for oversharing lol, it's just really neat to see videos like yours giving a nuanced take on "ace discourse" and hope it can help ppl get a better understanding of this "so you're basically straight" sexuality haha
I SO feel you. I can't even write a coherent comment for you because I'll start crying. I always read about this ace experience of finally finding your label and not feeling broken. And I absolutely feel broken. Honestly, I don't want to overshare, but thank you for this comment. Usually people have such a clear cut vision of their sexual identity, but I feel like I'll never understand myself.
I remember being on tumblr when The Discourse was very big and being ace myself, I got very tired of it very quickly and it's one of the many reasons I basically left Tumblr altogether even though it had been a big part of my life before that. Thank you for doing such a nuanced video on the whole thing.
Something that another person briefly mentioned in a different comment is how difficult it can be financially if you're aroace, and I wanted to expand on that a bit since I personally have been worrying about it a lot recently. As someone who's had incredibly shitty experiences with roommates AND romantic partners I've just accepted the fact that the best thing for my mental health is to live alone. But it's fucking expensive. So expensive, in fact, that I really can't even entertain a job in the field I want to work in (Theater/Film) because the pay is usually low and inconsistent. And I don't have someone to spilt any bills with. Of course this is more of a capitalism issue, and obviously it doesn't just affect aroace people, but the cost of it all is truly something I don't ever hear anyone talk about and I wish there were more helpful resources for how to survive this capitalist hellscape on your own.
Probably because, like you said, it's not an aroace issue. It's capitalism. And it's talked about a lot in anticapitalistic and socialist spaces. So maybe it's time to check out a new "community" if you're interested in that kinda things
I think a lot of people REALLY don't understand the diversity of experiences that fall on the ace spectrum (or can if people understand them that way). I love that you're talking about the true range. The more time I spend in ace spaces, the more I see the ways we're similar but even more the ways we're massively different.
I've been online-only out as an aroace since I was 33 (which is about a decade ago), and I've learned that there really isn't a single solid ace community. On Tumblr & Xwitter you get one built around validating each other while arguing with exclusionists, and the focus is usually on pushing oriented aces/aros who can conform to "acceptable" relationship models easier than those of us who are aroace or are sex averse. On AVEN's boards, you get the sneering "lol dating is stoooopid" circle that isn't keen on ANY kind of relationships, but they also don't concern themselves with any kind of meaningful activism (i.e. fighting against medicalization of asexuality or the social penalties of not being partnered). And on Reddit, of course, you get the circles that are indistinguishable from incels due to their misogyny & hostility. All of them tend to be youth oriented and more concerned with matters like TV characters than anything that affects real-world life.
Add to that the lack of an offline, in-person ace umbrella community - except for meetups almost always held solely on college campuses, thus enforcing the youth focus - and I don't know about others, but I can safely say that there is no true "ace community". People keep thinking that asexuality is a "new" or "online" orientation because of these factors as well, and there's no real effort to push back on it. If you're an adult who wants to have someone represent you to fight for actual things that matter and not just fandom nonsense, especially if you have a family that won't allow you to be out & vocal like I do, you're kinda screwed over. It's very frustrating.
TW: sexual harassment, homophobia, transphobic, aphobia
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Personally, I feel like separating my asexuality from being a trans woman is not possible, as they both impact my experiences.
I assumed I was a straight man until I was 21 because I was interested in women. I valorised my lack of sex as being more gentlemanly than others, as I grew up in music/drama departments surrounded by horny teens. Only by realising I am ace, did I also realise I am trans. And in both cases I skirted around terms for a long time as I felt unable to commit. In both cases, I had to process the self-denial in which I blamed not being attractive/skinny enough and finding excuses.
And in both cases, I had to process trauma when I'd been suppressing lots of emotions.
I had been bullied for being "gay" all through school, so I'd not wanted to be queer as it felt like those bullies would be proved right.
I had to confront how my mum had told me countless times "There's a lid for every pot"; and how she'd referred to trans people being a "popular fad" like being a lesbian in the 90s.
And I had to confront the fact that I'd been sexually harassed by boys and girls through high school and sixth form, how that made me feel about my body and physical contact.
I don't know if my experiences caused me to sex averse rather than sex neutral. But I don't think I care, because it is who I am. I'm far more sex positive since realising I'm ace, because I can just leave myself out of the picture and appreciate what it means for others.
My sexuality and gender are two factors which impact my interactions: how I am perceived, and the scope for interactions with others.
But I also think that these are some of the less interesting things about me; my oddities are far more varied than just my queerness, but it's something I can find community in.
I hope all who read this stay safe and well. It's not always easy, so take things at your own pace and not have all the answers.
The number of times I've heard people call a relationship unhealthy due to a lack of sex is mind boggling. If you're a woman who doesn't want sex, that's normal and you should just submit to it anyway. If you're a man who doesn't want sex, you're not really a man. None of us can apparently have healthy relationships because only sexual romantic relationships are healthy and fulfilling, so I guess we'll be alone and lonely forever. No, none of those things are problematic, traumatising, or alienating at all.
I always err on the side of inclusion, if there are ever any doubts. I do not know the lived experiences of other people, I can't read their minds, and I have no business dictating what labels they feel most comfortable using for themselves. I say no matter what your reasons are for being ace or aro, if that's what you feel best describes you, then that's who you are. If this changes at a later time, that's fine too, because people discover new things about themselves all the time, and sexuality can be fluid. You're the one who knows yourself best.
I'm aroace, and I have never experienced anything beyond aesthetic attraction. Discovering this part of my identity as a teenager involved loneliness pain, grief, and relief - and I only even had the vocabulary to describe how I was feeling because of Tumblr. Then 2016 hit and "ace discourse" became what it is now. As a very young adult at the time, the online atmosphere was so incredibly vitriolic that I was too scared, isolated, and ashamed to seek out queer community offline, where I could have easily found it. Instead, I put my head down and moved on with my life without that community, and that's a shame.
I hate the worry about "but how would the straights see us? How we would explain this?" we need to stop policing our identities for people outside the community, all experiencies should be welcomed and discussed with empathy
I identified as asexual for years, from my teenage years up until this year - I'm turning 26 in a month. I chalk up my asexuality to feeling a disconnect between my brain and my body or even different parts of my brain where I would be aroused by people and bodies but not feel attraction. I'm assuming that it was working through anxiety (that had nothing to do with sexuality to be honest) that allowed my brain to finally have the bandwidth to process sexual attraction so I could actually feel connected to my sexuality. It could also be a weird neurodivergent thing.
I don't feel asexual anymore, but the years I did identify as asexual were very real for me. I think I was genuinely asexual, but my circumstances changed and I no longer feel that way. It's definitely weird being on the other side of it. Sexual attraction is weird and it's a lot weirder now that I feel it more often and more intensely. I think it's nice to acknowledge that asexuality was a genuine part of me and while I don't experience that now, I wouldn't want to invalidate that experience and call it just a phase. I also think we should normalise the fact that humans and brains are complex and things can change and that's okay
The Nixon thing is so interesting...It sounds like if she's been happily straight and happily gay, she's either attracted to all genders or none - if there isn't a difference in how you feel about different genders then yeah, you can make a choice who you pursue for partners. But the fact of having those attractions (or not) in the first place isn't something you pick...
I'm often struck by how much ace and pan feel like sides of the same coin. I feel as though I could date someone of any gender (if I fell for them) because I'm equally unattracted to all of them. I genuinely don't understand why a lack of spontaneous attraction would mean I couldn't have sex with a person I loved and find a way to enjoy it. Or that sex would be any better if I were to suddenly find a person I was spontaneously attracted to.
Yeah, I was definitely getting a reading of "Someone who thinks that being bi/pan is being both straight and gay and not its own thing" from her statement.
@@Mockingdragonsex favorable ace, or sex neutral? thats what it sounds like at least
@@Mockingdragonit’s interesting you say that because for a lot of ace history, we were grouped into the bi community and many ace and/or aro people initially identify as bi or pan because ace and aros are equally attracted to the different genders, it just may take awhile to realize that attraction is zero haha
Personally I don't feel educated enough or comfortable speculating on Cynthia Nixon's experience, but I have found that in my experience, which I currently view through the lens of demisexuality but may be messier or better described by microlabels, I can kind of choose whether to look at people through a lens of being open to romantic attraction to them, sexual attraction to them, or neither. (I say "kind of" because I'm currently working on identifying other factors that play into that openness as well as whether/what type of an attraction develops once openness is achieved).
I'm bringing this up because I think in some ways, it could be oversimplified that I am choosing to be a lesbian both in terms of behaviors (i.e., seeking to date within queer spaces focused on wlw and nblw people) and in terms of the attractions I've been open to in the last ~10 years.
as someone who is both queer and 'asexual' (by your broad definition) due to trauma, I find the distinction between inherent sexuality and gender and experiences that may lead one to deviate from those incredibly important. talking about how your hypothetical 'not technically ace but experiencing a lack of attraction' people would benefit from information that would serve the ace community is, in my opinion, a strawman argument.
there are plenty of people outside of marginalised communities who may benefit from information designed for marginalised identities. but that in no way means they should now hold the banner of those identities and struggles.
it is also incredibly dehumanising to imply that someone whose libido/sexual attraction/sexual interest was affected by illness and/or rape should now be expected to identify with a label that is by definition borne of trauma.
ace people have always had and should always have a space in the queer community. society's push for sexual and romantic connection is systemic.
but by your metric, anything from trauma to political lesbianism should be lumped in with queerness as well. the born this way argument exists because it is inherent to our oppression. if you've been privileged enough to intellectually disconnect yourself from it, great, but that doesn't make it any less of a pillar of our existence.
Thank you so much for this comment ❤. I'm asexual and i found rowan's words painful. Asexuals are so commonly invalidated by being accused of being sick from trauma or illness. Rowan saying "actually, asexuality can be a symptom!". Really hurt me. Im so used to conservatives saying things like this but having it said "progressively" like this was new and stung in a way i haven't needed to cope with before. Your words really helped me! Thank you!
The major problem I see with conflating "inherent" asexual-spectrum feelings and identity with trauma/illness/medication-induced lack of libido, is that one needs to be accepted and the other treated (if the person wants). Putting them together will get people ignored or mistreated by partners, medical providers, and so on. Indeed, one person can well have both, and want one treated while the other is accepted.
Yes, some resources can be shared, but conflating them has great potential for harm.
Im so happy you're covering this. Im allo, but used to identify as ace when i was a teenager, so I understand the frustration and confusion that comes with being outside of the influence sex and sexuality have on the human experience -- AND i find it very triggering now when certain aces/aros dunk on any expression of sexuality ever, because i am gay, and grew up in a VERY sexually repressed environment. It messed me up for a long time. It took years of healing to overcome. So i really don't appreciate when people bring that sex-shaming rhetoric into queer spaces
nothing is more embarrassing to me than when some ace folks take 'sex-repulsed' and extend it into sex negative rhetoric bullshit. it's fine to feel a kinda visceral reaction-i get it because i have that reaction to the idea of someone seeing me as sexually attractive-but like, the moment our identity extends into how we see or interact with other folks is the moment where we need to take a step back and reconsider some shit
An interesting thing I’ve noticed in ace spaces online is a lot of sex-repulsed people claiming that ace spec people do not ever have or want sex.
@@Cocoanutty0it’s not that interesting. it’s one of the only spaces of a certain type. it attracts disproportionately more people of that type
I am a lesbian and I identified as ace before fully coming to terms with being gay. Even though I was raised sexually repressed I still had so much comp het and performative interest in trying to make it work and that created sexual repulsion. I appreciate Rowan wanting to break down the rigidity of the meaning of asexual, because it was safe and needed for me to do so to figure it out. Just wanted to share to another gay person who used to identify as ace.
@@TinyGhosty Just as long as y'all don't go around saying that any ole person who's claiming to be ace will grow out of that phase simply because it was a phase for you.
Out of curiosity, though, why did "questioning" not feel safe or needed enough for you?
Aspec people are like snowflakes, there’s no two that are exactly alike.
I almost got so frustrated 💀
The Ace-spectrum tries to give all people a space to discover themselves. Thats why its so broad. It doesn't want to exclude anyone who identifies with it because then it would do exactly what all the other sexual orientations did to Aces.
The Ace spectrum is so broad because it wants to give everyone who identifies with the label the space to discover themselves. The Ace Spektrum tries to not do what other sexual orientations did to Aces.
"That's god's work mama, she said: Hiiiiii ~"
That's everybody tho
I think my only real issue with your “born this way” explanation is equating no libido with asexuality by default. Asexuality isn’t desire or lack thereof alone - it’s directly related to an absence of *attraction* - if a menopausal woman who has no desire also doesn’t feel *attracted* to her husband sexually, then yea, I’d consider her fitting the broadest definition. But a lack of sexual activity isn’t the same thing as a lack of attraction. Ace folks can be sexually active or even hyperactive and still be asexual.
Yeah that and the "what about the guy on medication'. The man on meds is distressed by his sudden lack of interest, that doesn't make him ace. It means he needs to speak with his doctor. I'm no pleased with all of those examples being medical issues because it furthers the idea that "well it could be a medical problem". I'm not going to tell someone they can't say they are ace but conflating sexual attraction with libido and interest in general is the kind of stuff many aces are trying to debunk and tear down. Having an ace say those things is actually quite harmful. :(
I don’t think she meant that those examples were inherently asexual, but that those people experienced similar issues asexual people have (they could relate with asexual people and vice versa), could benefit from support groups or communities around asexuality, and/ or even self identity somewhere on the asexual spectrum.
@@nopeitsmx I can see that, I do wish they’d made that clearer if that’s the case, because it does read as “no sex = ace” at least to me.
@@bumblebeerror9019 oh! okay yeah i can see where you’re coming from
As a queer asexual my biggest issue with the community is the need to pry over anyone's reason for their asexuality. I am incredibly uncomfortable when people ask me "Why" I'm asexual. For some that can be an incredibly loaded question and no one is owed an answer for my asexuality.
Asexuals can be queer or they can not be, but for many your queer identity is immediately erased when you add that asexuality part into the mix. You can't be pan/ace you can't be gay/ace because how can you be attracted to all genders or be gay if you dislike sex? You can't be in the community you don't experience oppression.
Or you are treated as if you are sexually broken, something is wrong with you, the doctor wants to do tests to see why you're like this, they ask the same question over and over, they recc'd therapists that you didn't ask for. Friends and family offer unsolicited advice, they make comments about your lack of relationships or kids, if you do have a partner they make sexual innuendos or cheer that you "finally got out of that phase". People feel comfortable asking about your sex life, asking your partner inappropriate questions. Friends tell you that you're not asexual just have a mental issue, you need to get off anti-depressants or whatever medicine and you'll be "normal" again.
It is none of my business to question why someone is asexual or gauge if their asexuality is valid, and whether asexuality is a temporary stop on their journey or something they're going to be to for the rest of their lives if they are queer they deserve a seat at the table.
'There's no such thing as a gay whale' - crowd boos and throws popcorn
'...but there's no such thing as a straight whale either' - crowd falls silent, save a few confused murmurs, and slowly, cautiously, resumes eating popcorn
The video is good, but I do wish that she pushed back on the ‘asexuals don’t face discrimination’ a bit more, instead of focusing on why it shouldn’t matter. That’s factually incorrect, and that discrimination looks a lot like what LGBT folks face-conversion therapy, parental rejection, legal issues. Yes, asexual people can often fly beneath the radar. But that makes for a really lonely experience. There’s a good chance people literally won’t know the word if you tell them, and a good chance you never knowingly meet another person in person like you.
What is a community but a bunch of people bound by shared experiences? And is the rejection of asexual people a matter of ‘we have limited resources’ or is it a matter of ‘you’re weird, and we don’t think you are like us (and won’t bother to educate ourselves), go away.’ I wonder.
There's also the history of corrective SA on asexual individuals, which goes into so many other issues in of itself, like marital SA being legal in a lot of regions for simply being married.
I firmly believe that non-ace people tend to forget or overlook how important of a topic sexual intercourse is in society and relationships. For many sex and a need for sexual activity simply is a part of life. Something that I as an ace person cannot understand and vice versa. That feeling or lack thereof differentiates ace-identifying people (including everyone on the ace spectrum) from basically everyone else, which makes them the “weirdos”. Dunno its unsatisfying
My son (15) recently came out as ace, although it had been something discussed as early as 11. Not long before the official coming out, he asked me if he's asexual, does he have to be part of the LGBT community, because he didn't want to be. I told him that whatever labels he takes or doesn't take are his chouce, he gets to define that for himself.
I will admit, although not to him, at least not now, that my feelings were a bit hurt by that. As a trans, bi guy, being part of the queer community is important to me. But I do understand and accept his feelings on this.
First, parents aren't cool. LGBTQIA is one of his parent's "thing." As a teenager that's a pretty natural distancing behaviour.
Second, since I've come out, he's seen the negativity I've experienced, from issues with certain family members, seeing brutal anti-trans rhetoric in our city, to me experiencing two physical attacks. He's super, 100% supportive of me but seeing that crap, as much as I've tried to insulate him, has to have an impact.
And lastly, for him at least, being ace isn't an identity. It seems like it's more just a description of how his life is being lived. He's asexual the same way he's a-hockey. He has as little interest in hockey as he has in sex, relationships, and attraction, but he certainly doesn't define himself by his lack of interest in hockey. (A semi big deal here in Canada.) In fact the only reason he came out socially is because he was getting annoyed at friends bugging him about his lack of a girlfriend. Explaining the ace thing ended that apparently, which is good I guess.
Basically for him, being asexual isn't a big deal. The label is a useful tool but not a defining trait. He currently doesn't see himself as queer and that's his perogative. If that changes, I'll work to ensure that he feels included and until and unless that happens, I'll do my best to ensure that other ace folk do feel included now.
I don't think I can watch this video now-- it's triggering something in me and I honestly feel like I want to cry and be sick to my stomach. As a biromantic asexual woman there are some days that I truly wish that I was never born ace. The amount of hatred I get for simply existing is exhausting. There's people who constantly tell me that I need to be fixed with hormones, hypnosis therapy, or even forced sexual encounters. There's people who tell me that asexuality is a mental illness and that I better learn to love sex because I'll end up alone. Now there's freaking TERFS attacking members of the asexual community for wanting to dress sexy and not fulfilling traditional gender roles. I just want to be damned loved, accepted, and recognized with the LGBTQIA+ community. I'm too queer to be straight, but also feel like other people in the LGBTQIA+ community don' want me there. I want a space where I belong and feel loved in the LGBTQIA+ community. I finally found a queer ace activist, Yasmin Benoit, who I feel truly stands up for the community and was the parade leader for London Pride. We need to hold each other up in the LGBTQIA+ community especially where our rights our on the line. I just wish people would understand that sexuality is an entire spectrum!
My hot take is that most exclusionists were actually more upset about the split attraction model than asexuality and just conflated the two. I literally never saw a single one of them even acknowledge the existence of aroaces in their arguments or (what passed for) logic. Hell a ton of the talking pts were abt an ability to “pass” for straight by entering relationships or whatever and even beyond the BLATANT biphobia of that like. That clearly only applies to alloromantics????? Anyway I think part of the lasting harm from this even beyond the literal trauma they inflicted by straight up harassing children on the internet for daring to have a sexuality they deemed uncool (very queer of them good job 10/10) is that conflation, which both prevents allo ppl who might benefit from that framework in some way from engaging with it and forces those of us without literally any attraction to split to fragment our identities and mold ourselves onto a model that makes no goddamn sense for us bc not only is the aro community like fully separated now but also if I were to describe asexuality as lacking attraction to anyone regardless of gender ppl would literally angrily tell me I was wrong/it HAS to be specifically sexual, even tho that’s not how anyone talks abt literally any other sexuality, even when lots of ppl of that sexuality may also have split attraction (like just saying there are PLENTY of aro bisexuals)
oh my god this… when i was a teen i was super into all the microlabels and stuff (thanks tumblr) but as i got older i felt that i had an identity i almost couldn’t describe, where the primary driver was lack of romantic attraction but it came part and parcel with lack of sexual attraction. because of the SAM, if i just said “aro” that implied that i was allosexual, and vice versa, but saying “aroace” used the SAM to separate my feelings in a way that wasn’t accurate either. i usually say aroace now but i weirdly wish that asexual comprised the same breadth of meaning that “gay” or “bi” for instance does, in covering sexual and romantic orientations as a single feeling. i’m sure the SAM helped a lot of people but for me it’s just now made my identity harder to explain because people not in the community think it’s too specific and microlabel-y…
As a demisexual person I related incredibly strongly with the more standard ace experience for years - including sex aversion. I was part of the asexual community before any other part of the queer community that I also identify with. It was really formative to my understanding of myself and the world around me.
However, I would hate for my story (now very happily married) to be used to prove that asexuality doesn't exist. Even though I have always acknowledged that it is a spectrum and pointed out that I'm somewhere on it, I've had people both in the ace community and outside it imply that I don't belong there.
I was never 'fixed' and have not stopped feeling/being demisexual - it just presents itself differently now that I'm in a different place in my life.
I’m so glad Rowan talked about all this. I thought I was the only one thinking about how medication/life experience/neurodivergence interact with asexuality. What sends me into a confused spiral is whether I’m “actually” on the grey ace spectrum because I’ve been on birth control since I was 17 and do I really want to define baseline sexual/romantic attraction as something that can only be determined sans medication? That’s absurd. I would never say that to another person. I am also ADHD and any arousal/attraction is distracting and inconvenient. In my current (medicated) state I don’t want that, but who knows what I’d want (or not want) without it… and does it matter?