Why Do Critics Hate Prog?
Vložit
- čas přidán 21. 10. 2021
- In this video, we're taking a look at some of the most common critiques of progressive rock from major music critics over the years. Progressive rock has been treated pretty harshly by critics over the years, so this video is dedicated to thinking about why that might be the case, and what problems the big critics had with the genre.
Because of their prominence as tastemakers and critics, a lot of this video focuses on Lester Bangs and Robert Christgau, and what they thought of the genre compared to others, such as punk music. Many of their critiques are the same ones that we still hear today, from internet commentators and modern critics. Often, Prog is considered by critics to be pretentious and somewhat "tasteless", sacrificing feeling and emotion for show off-y composition and instrumental acrobatics. We'll try to make a case for this not entirely being the case.
We'll also put a lens to the Prog community, and see whether or not the fans (snobs) contribute to some of the negative stereotypes around progressive rock, and how this feeds into the critical response to the genre.
-----
Special Thanks to my Patrons on Patreon:
Darren Baker
Ben Guevara
Eric and Sheri Carbenia
Evan Satinsky
/ isitprog
Check out the patreon for early access, members only videos, and extras! From now on, you will only be billed on months where a video is released, I'm sorry about my erratic upload schedule! Changes to patreon pledges will be updated upon the next upload.
----
Citations and More:
Blenders 50 Worst bands (list only)
www.morrissey-solo.com/thread...
Lester bangs, The Clash essay
books.google.com/books?id=riL...
Suppers ready fan
• prog fans
Robert Plant and Brian Johnson
• Robert Plant greets Br...
I've had it with Prog fans! (Video)
• Ep #507: I’ve HAD IT W...
Lester Bangs
• Lester Bangs about music
articles
/ lets_talk_was_rock_cri...
www.jimdero.com/OtherWritings/...
www.klcc.org/post/cant-prog-r...
www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...
www.thestranger.com/slog/2017...
www.odt.co.nz/entertainment/m...
commentary
/ this_music_is_pretentious
/ under-cooked-raw-music
Horror Sound Effect by F1Fan0001
• Horror Movie Violin So... - Hudba
![[柴犬ASMR]曼玉Manyu&小白Bai 毛发护理Spa asmr](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/0TsXQ7z2Dh4/mqdefault.jpg)
"It's not pretentious if it is actually good" - some guy in a king crimson video
100%
"pretentious" is such an another way of saying "i don't get it so it means its bad".
In other words, it's only pretentious if you're pretending.
@@zackzallie8735 I think a lot of those critics didn’t know enough about music to criticize the music, so if you went out of their comfort zones and played above their heads, they had to feel resentful because they didn’t know enough to honestly and objectively criticize the music. So they couldn’t patronize these guys like they could those who played less complex music. They probably really resented the more instrumental stuff, because with regular pop songs, they could at least latch on to the lyrics to act like they had something relevant to say.
I’m not a big fan of David Lee Roth. But he had a great quote about music critics. “The reason the critics all love Elvis Costello is because they all look like him.“
Is this Prog? czcams.com/video/qIbI9I8Xvdc/video.html
@@joetit5969 the hell?
That's a nice quip, though it's a cheap shot. And it avoids addressing the reasons why people might enjoy EC's music. I mean, I like a lot of prog rock, and I also like Elvis Costello--and I'm far from the only person who's able to appreciate both.
The problem with critics like Christgau or Dave Marsh is that they are musically illiterate and yet have bully pulpits (by virtue of their status as critics) that put them in the position of being tastemakers. Lacking any vocabulary to speak about music qua music, what they write about is its associated social phenomena or the superiority of their own taste. And their tastes are based, in nearly every instance, on assumptions which come from extra-musical sources, often from the world of cultural politics.
@@matthewweber3904 David Lee Roth, in my opinion, is one of the least likable people on earth. The reason that quote stuck with me as being memorable was probably because, not only was it funny, but it was just about the only thing that guy has ever said or done that I didn’t find annoying. Lol.
But I have to admit. He sounds fine on the Van Halen records. Somehow it helps when you don’t have to look at him. 😁😁😁
Good old Dave.
Rule of thumb #1496: no critic using a phrase like "reflexive (maybe even somatic) negativism" should accuse others of pretentiousness and self-indulgence.
"Most rock journalism is people who can't write, interviewing people who can't talk, for people who can't read." - Frank Zappa
“Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.” - Frank Zappa
There's also a video where he goes through each prog band and calls them each not really that progressive.
The dancing quote has been attributed to about 8 other people alongside Zappa, so who knows. I don't think it was him. Great quote though.
“F all them writers with a pen in their hand
I will be more specific so they might understand
They can all kiss my A but because it’s so grand
They best just stay away”
“Packard Goose” Frank Zappa - Super Genius
@@midnightchaseproject do you know how to find this video
@@project8466 Look up "Frank Zappa Interview 12/8/1984" there's a lampshade left of zappa
What many people don't understand is that technique and harmonic and rhythmic complexity can enable a musician to express more than they otherwise would have.
I agree;Technique Is a way to expréss something in your brain, it's the dexerity that allows you to close gap between the ethereal and the tangible.
if the audience can't understand the complexity, it's noise, not communication.
@perfectallycromulent I definitely don't think we should have complexity in music just for the sake of it. That wasn't implied at all in my comment.
I think many prog fans are also fans of other genres - including punk, metal, hip-hop, etc.
Variety is the spice of life.
That's probably true to some degree but probably not so much the genres you mentioned with the exception of metal which does seem to have a lot of crossover. Punk and rap/hip-hop not so much.
I love Prog of course but also folk ,psychedelic space rock ,kosmische musik,jazz rock,soundtracks
Totally true, especially younger fans.
@@unknown6390 Young prog fans have some of the most eclectic taste I've ever come across. A young prog fan who also loves hip-hip and stuff like post-punk is very common.
The ironic thing about these critics complaining about pretentiousness are their own reviews. Have they looked in the mirror and read their own prose? Talk about pretentious!
It occurred to me that most punk fans of the day wouldn't have read past the first sentence.
Most, (not all), music critics are people that failed as musicians/songwriters
Prog is pretentious, cope harder.
@@MisterLumpkin Oddly enough, that's not true nowadays. Most of the people I know who like Bad Brains are at least open to new kinds of music. It comes from both sides. In fact, they used to be a fusion band. There are videos from the early '90s where Henry Rollins practically begs kids to listen to their parents jazz collections. It's the pop-punkers and Blink-182 nostalgia crowd who are about as bad as the disco-revivalists. Impulsively defensive, AND unbearably pretentious about it. What a novel concept!
Criticism is an art, look at literature. The reason we HAVE knowledge of Shakespeare is the critics. But criticism is NOT 'two thumbs up' or 'I hate this'.
It's really funny because almost every prog band had a "let's have fun" attitude, they just wanted to break boundaries with the limits of music, calling that "pretencious" is just really wrong.
If they talk about painting, cinema, literature, they give thumb ups to everyone who go over the limits, but in music they hate it.
innovation gets trashed in painting, cinema, and literature as well. music isn't special here. plenty of movies regarded as classics now were ridiculed by critics and lost money when they were new. genres like horror exist in a permanent "lesser" status, one that has persisted since the dawn of film.
The only thing pretentious here is Christgau himself!
You could feel that they just wanted to have a jolly good time experimenting, writing about fantastical lyrics sounds like escapism to me not pompousness. But conservatism has always come to heads with innovators in music heck it was rampant around the time of Mozart and Behtoven.
Greg Lake in his book "Lucky Man" talks about how the critics hated him and ELP.
He said somethin like:
"I couldn't believe how much they hated us. They attacked us all the time, how we looked, how pretencious we were. Most of the time, they were personal attacks againts us, not e en about the music we played"
Prog has always been the underdog.
"Pretentious" has become one of the most horribly misused or misinterpretted words in modern english.
Its root comes from the word "Pretend," which is understood to mean "not real" or "fiction," or more in this context, "insincere" or "fake."
Its been misused ad nauseum for decades, like it means "full of one-self," "ego-driven," or "self-important," etc, which is not the same thing as being "fake" or "insincere."
Those who are ego-driven are not intending to be insincere. The driving of their own ego is purely sincere or real.
To paraphrase Neil Peart "Rush has been referred to as 'Pretentious.' We're not *pretending* to do or be anyone or anything."
It's become a buzzword for people to use when they feel the need to default on shaming language when they lack an actual point or opinion. These people will never see the irony of using the word "pretentious" pretentiously
@@hazardousjazzgasm129 lmfao you're spot on
Exactly, and I think to enjoy art the most it's best to put aside our ego and our prejudices to enjoy the work, not to speculate about the PEOPLE who made the work-lest that cloud our judgement. Even I'm guilty of enjoying some groups a little more than others because the people who made them looked hot or sexy to me, but if I were to judge them I wouldn't let that get in the way. It would be totally unfair! Prog can be campy and the people who make it can look like dorks or "ugly" and that can set people up to expect that they'll hear "bad", "ugly", or "weird" music. I used to be that way when I was a little dopey kid, and so were probably a lot of prog fans. Punk is sexy and dangerous, and I love it, but I would never let the handsome face of young Jello Biafra or Henry Rollins cloud my judgement enough to make me say Black Flag is better than Genesis or what have you. All music can be fun if we are open to it, some people take appearance and ego wayyy too seriously, punk and prog fans alike.
Since I was in my 20's in the 1970s this was my experience as a young man. I agree with almost every word of your piece. I had a simple way of dealing with people like Christgau. I used him as a contraindication. If he liked something I probably wouldn't buy it, if he hated it I almost certainly would. This worked very well.
He actually has pretty good tastes, overall. I just ignore his prog reviews
Christgau had very good taste in certain things, like a lot of singer songwriter, post punk and he loved the Stones, and a lot of his A+ albums of the 70’s were outstanding, but he definitely had a blind spot for metal and prog. I remember however, when he reviewed Yes, he would remark how much he loved Steve Howe’s guitar playing. He was also one of the few critics in the 70’s that was favorable to Led Zeppelin, so I’ll give him that
Quite right, not all bad!@@painless465
Agree. I mean, the man was in love with the New York dolls, for Chist’s sake.
I think those critics simply don't understand more complicated music.
Not sure if that’s true. Cuckgau likes Talking Heads and Television
@@heckinbasedandinkpilledoct7459and gave A- to king crimson's red
I consider myself a Lucky Woman; always valued my own opinion more than that of music critics. Thankfully, there has always been quite a few people like me!
I was going to say pretty much the same thing. I’ve never let anyone tell me what I should or should not like and never will. That applies to pretty much everything.
Let me guess, you think Phil Collins’ Testify is a great album.
Oooooh, what a lucky woman…she was…
Fuck yes!
One thing I noticed about criticisms of my favourite prog bands - even way back in the 70s - was the critics never, ever actually talked about music. It's obvious that most critics know nothing about music, and they are not even remotely interested.
So these critics do what all pretenders do when they are feigning knowledge - they focus on the personal, fashion and the political.
What I love about prog are the sound, the riffs, the ideas, the arrangements, the amazing musical effects, transitions, tension and killer climaxes. You'll seldom hear a peep about those things from so called music critics. They are frauds, and they have been perpetuating the fraud for half a century.
For some critics, I think the existence of prog itself is what is offensive to them. For critics prog is just too weird to be an acceptable choice of music. Sure, the aesthetics of prog are weird, but prog never balked at embracing the weird. That was always part of its identity.
And I've definitely noticed this pattern with not just prog, but music criticism in general where the critics focus first and foremost on the superficial aspects of a given genre of music. Its not WHAT the music sounds like, but WHO likes the music that's most important to critics.
"Falling for prog when young because of wanting a bit more from rock at a young age"( about 9:15, paraphrase)...exactly...after listening to popular bands/artists of the time, I wanted a bit more, both musically and for lyrics....prog bands always had interesting album covers, my first two prog albums I bought ( due to the album covers), in 1975....Kansas: " Song For America ", and Supertramp: " Crime of the Century " ( still my two favorite bands)...and have been a prog guy since
I also absolutely adore those 2 bands
Although these familiar critiques of progressive rock do irk me, I think they also may do more to keep the genre alive and discussed today than those who sing prog's praises. There's something tempting about 20 minute songs, bizarre concept albums, elements of musical theater, mellotrons, flutes, solos, polyrhythms, dozens of chords and callouts to classical music and jazz when somewhere there's a critic lambasting it all as pretentious nonsense.
Exactly. Telling someone they didn't do a good enough job is actually a good thing because the ones who will actually go above and beyond will do so anyway and it gives those without that level of ambition something to think about. Christgau talks about having friends who liked Genesis. The reality is he's just a really good writer who somehow made a modest living out of telling people how he felt about popular music. While most of the commenters on here seem to have a little Christgau living rent free in their heads, the point is to call all music into question so that it doesn't get too full of itself.
Antichristgau held a grudge for years when someone mispronounced his surname. This is all you need to know about this man and his character.
When asked "so what do you like to listen to" I usually respond with "some things that you'll probably like but mostly things you won't ". That's a good way to start the conversation. Sometimes you get lucky and find a kindred spirit in Prog, other times it ends there. I'm far more tolerant of others musical interests than then are of mine. No problem, I've been doing it for well over 40 years now it's all good. If they called themselves reviewers instead of critics maybe I'd give a shit.
Variety is the spice of life. Long live PROG.
yes so many influences blues ,jazz ,folk ,classical ,psychedelia ,electronic music
Absolutely nailed it! Christgau always struck me as someone as pretentious as the prog bands he criticized. Thought he had a bit of an ego as well, if the story about his title as the Dean is correct. Prog is a genre you gotta meet on its playing field, not with bias, just like any other genre. You can’t just write a five sentences and call it a day, at least in my opinion.
(Also it was really funny seeing my Jerma/Suppers Ready meme show up here. Never thought I’d see it lol)
Is this Prog? czcams.com/video/qIbI9I8Xvdc/video.html
I think it's funny that he called himself the Dean. Like everyone literally STILL has a bone to pick with him and he called himself that as a dopey twentysomething
Apples and oranges honestly, I hardly like any prog at all. I hate most of it.
You know that’s a really good point. This whole pretentious thing just makes me nuts it’s like this broad sweeping discounting of the music. It’s such a trope. And you’re absolutely right Chrisgau Who is more pretentious in any of this stuff
@@curly_wyn your loss
I'll admit, I'm a prog snob and not ashamed of it. We all know it's the best genre in music 😉
but it’s not
As a massive fan of prog rock, I've also sometimes wondered about just WTF the band was thinking at the time that they wrote a piece. But then on the other hand, I've more than often marveled at the complexity of the songwriting, the majesty of the playing. I love the band Transatlantic. Check out the Whirlwind album. &6 minutes long and it's pretty much just one song. Amazing! I'm also a fan of long Sci Fi books. I don't really want the quick get to the chorus pop song. I want to be transported to something deeper. Those 2 critics were the pompous asses, not the bands. They just don't get the joy that prog provides.
I have two personal theories as to why critics hate prog.
Theory #1: One’s natural compulsion to interject personal taste into a thoughtful examination of art will manifest itself heavily when critiquing prog, due primarily to the genre’s leanings of pretension, oddness, and newness; all naturally antagonistic traits when examining life in general.
Theory#2: Critics are assholes.
One must be careful to distinguish between pretentiousness and ambition. Michelangelo was accused of pretentiousness by contemporary critics when he finished the Sistine Chapel ceiling. Now, no sane person would call it that. He had grand aspirations for his art and he achieved it. It ain't pretentious if it works.
That Christgau guy calling anything "pretentious" is quite a hoot.
Christagu should not be taken seriously specially with Prog.
Cuckgau is a good resource in terms of punk and regular rock. Just ignore his prog reviews
Critics hate prog because it's suburban and middle class like them. They would rather be tough and prole but they're not. They resent this.
Exactly. They are the people my punk friends and I would have referred to as poseurs in the 80s. Wannabes. Desperate to be seen as hip and with it by elevating a genre that was meant to be raw and primal to some sort of PoMo screed against prog. No true punk ever read their reviews anyway. We were too busy listening to music.
Great analysis. I'm a bit old (...), and one lie the music critics repeat a lot when I was young was that punk came to take down the "pretentious progs" from the radios. Well, the progs were rarely listened in the radios at the time... it was the times of disco, R&B and Abba, anyway. And punk barely scratched the dominance of pop from the top of the charts, too. Then you learn that Johnny Rotten was heavily influenced by Pete Hammill, and in no time the best punk musicians created post-punk, with Magazine having a keyboard player and a synth solo in its debut album!! So I like Zappa, and Velvet, and Crimson, and Wire, and Chic, and Eno, and Gentle Giant, and Kinks, and Prince, and Steely Dan, and Frith etc. and it's OK. It's all good music.
Yep, absolutely.
You're absolutely right, punk gets a lot of undeserved shit from progheads on account of this imaginary "rivalry" or the idea punk "killed" prog. Punk's taking the bullet that really should be aimed at disco (which isn't bad music either, it just genuinely deserves the blame for shifting the industry more towards commercialism).
Thanks for the comment, very insightful
Yep. I was 16 in 1976 and like everyone I knew, ignored Punk - it just wasn't of any interest. It didn't change a thing to the albums I bought, the gigs I went to or the radio shows I tuned into. Now, as a 62 year old I still love the Prog albums I bought back then - and Punk? It just seems so quaint now!
Post-punk is great, but prog rock fucking sucks. It’s inaccessible drivel.
Indulge me, if you will. I have my own theory on the reasons why Prog was so hated on- back when I was young (the 70's)and right to this present day (though I sense some minds are beginning to change while looking backward). I ask you, what is the most precious myth of the rock and roll scene? Why, it's the one where and three or four guys can pick up a couple of guitars and a drum set and close themselves off in a garage and create music that goes to the top of the charts, right? I mean we're all familiar with that one- heard it all our lives. Well, Prog is hear to tell you that "No, any four untrained guys can not go in a garage and come out with Tarkus, 21st Century Schizoid Man, All Good People or any one of a thousand prog pieces." The musicians who inhabited the Prog world were mostly classically trained, well schooled, geniuses and prodigies. Like the super handsome guy who comes in and makes off with the most desirable girl in the town- they confirm the worst fears of the run of the mill losers who were hoping against hope that someday, if they hung around long enough, she might fall into their laps. You never had a chance, you know it and, most importantly here, THEY know it.
This explains some of why music critics disliked the musicians and , perhaps, the music. I'm guessing some of my Prog favorites might not have suffered less musically educated interviewers very well. It might have been frustrating trying to communicate with someone who just doesn't have the chops to understand the concepts of what you're trying to do. I've heard conversations that were painful, where the musician comes off as taciturn, short, even pompous- those probably didn't translate to very positive album reviews. So, why didn't the record labels (the ones making a ton of money) intervene, you ask?
(What follows is a very abridged version of a crazy theory of mine, but this is a comment and not an article.)
Turns out these musical geniuses were very hard for the labels to control and, as long as people desired this kind of high end music, they were impossible to replace. Normally, the labels could have exerted pressure on critics to protect what had become cash cows for them, but they chose not to. Perhaps they felt music needed to change to a format that was more accessible to lesser, more easily replaced talents. This would require dumbing down the audience to accept an inferior product, but I digress. The true measure of whether Prog was great was how it affected so many other already established great musicians. Did the Who, the Beatles even the Beach Boys become more or become less Proggy during this era? Ever read Pete Townshend's comments on King Crimson?
Regardless, it doesn't bother me in the slightest that there's all this hate for Prog. It remains one of my favorite genres of music. It spoke to me 50 years ago and it still does today. It wasn't meant for everyone, in fact its' inaccessibility only ever made it more attractive , Food for thought.
Remember that a lot of prog musicians were self taught. Phil Collins, Steve Hackett, all the members of Rush. Jon Anderson was never super technically gifted as a player either, his music has a very DIY approach going on.
4 guys *can* shack up in a garage and just write prog stuff. That's how The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway was made after all.
And there it is. The most unreadable pile of literary vomit I’ve read in a while.
@@curly_wynHoly crap you cried all over this entire comments section!
As far as i can see it most journos who say they hate prog are just as, if not even more pretentious than the genre they claim to hate.
In England at least, they are usually upper middle class toffs who claim to hate prog so they can seem more down with the people.
I have always loved prog (good 70s prog mind) for its experimental nature and how you can listen to the songs multiple times and still get something new from them.
I always thought of prog as the “get your money’s worth” genre. They pack so much phenomenal talent and music in every song. They even make longer songs so you get more that way too.
Prog people aren't even talented. I learned how to play most of it when I was six. If you played guitar once a day for two weeks you'd be doing more than all prog guitarists combined.
@@midnightchaseproject fracture
@@GiornoGiovannaGangstar Hell yeah.
@@midnightchaseproject naaaa there is no way you can play archillies last stand by zep with only two week practice
@@pillowrabbit832424 Anyone can, and people with talent can do it in an afternoon.
Those who can, do. Those who can’t, teach. Those that can do neither are critics.
A lot of music critics do teach.
@@midnightchaseproject And what have I learned from them? That most are no talent hacks with a thesaurus.
@@frankgh1 You're really using your noggin huh?
@@frankgh1 How many books have you written?
@@midnightchaseproject What’s the problem? Are you a triggered, unpublished music critic? You can’t find anything else to do but defend leeches? Go back to your book writing. I’m not interested in you or you opinions.
Just got into prog a year ago didn’t even understand what I was listening to for a while it felt like digging up a dinosaur happy there are other fans out there
I feel the same, it's like finding an artifact and you're trying to figure it out.
Point of note, most Prog artists are of UK or European origin. These critics are not. America while I love it does have a tendency to dumb down most things. Contrast UK critics of the same era e.g. Charles Shaar Murray there is much more appreciation of Pro, notably the creativity, musicianship.
That is just another example of the pretentiousness of prog fans. Automatically accusing America of dumbing things down any time someone doesn't like something categorically British (at least to begin with). You do realise the States had jazz and fusion, right? Prog pales in comparison to those as far as musicianship is concerned, and they also have a distinct lack of what is typically abundant in prog music from the 70s.........pretentiousness.
@@handzar6402 Elitism =/= pretentiousness
Yeah, good. Fuck all that pretentious but more importantly inaccessible drivel.
@@curly_wyn That's not what that word means
@@handzar6402 I'll, personally, just admit that I hate the United States.
I was just watching a bit of an interview with Ian Andersen saying that Thick as a Brick was a spoof concept album mocking other prog bands for making super pretentious concept albums 😆 I’m glad they all did though because I love them!
Given Christgau's supposed aversion to pretentious bollocks, his writing doesn't half sound like a lot of pretentious bollocks.
That was the first thing that struck me.
Why do people care about what critics have to say? They don't build statues of critics.
I love prog rock and have been listening to it for almost 50 years. One side effect is that a lot of other types of music sounds flat and I can't listen to it.
music isn’t meant to be a perfect, mathematical equation - all of the feeling, emotion and intensity in more traditional, blues and folk or jazz approaches comes from those unique characteristics of playing imperfectly - if rock music was always perfectly in tune, it’d be boring…like prog rock.
@@iphner43 I have no problems with rock and jazz. But I do find pop music very bland.
@@catherinegrimes2308 So the Beatles or the Animals or the Turtles or Emitt Rhodes or Sly and the Family Stone or Stevie Wonder or Marvin Gaye are all bland? Got it, makes sense.
@@iphner43 Well done!
You sound a bit pretentious. Not surprised, though.
The thing you are missing is class analysis. There was a perception at the time that bands like the Ramones and Clash were working class, while a band like ELP was bourgeois. There is some truth to this, but the most bourgeois band of the time was certainly the Rolling Stones, despite it's street-cred, and the progs in Yes weren't particularly bourgeois at all in the 1970s.
That's definitely an important element that I didn't really get into! Thanks for pointing it out, that's an interesting discussion to have.
I like to remind people that everyone in Genesis are self taught musicians. The only one to get any formal training at all in their formative years was Tony Banks, and he quit lessons before he turned 10.
The Ramones and Clash actually had something to say, which besides accessibility I think is the most important thing in music.
@@curly_wyn "Hey, ho! Let's go!" - Ludwig Wittgenstein
I fucking love the Ramones, but they weren't saying anything. The Clash were, but they had like two and a half LPs worth of listenable material.
@@progrock thanks for your great analysis the class aspect is important but I must be an exception then since I'm a prog lover with marxist leanings and a great interest in George Orwell 's books and ethos
In a word - Prog makes Christgau and Bangs feel stupid. And they think they're smart. Bad news!
Except unlike most “prog” artists, they actually were. So sad.
@@curly_wyn oh, really. Try listening to Robert Fripp, Tony Banks or Steve Howe.
As fun as it is to make fun of cuckgau, he does seem genuinely erudite
Performative Prog snobbery is amusing because it gets under people's skins.
Is this Prog? czcams.com/video/qIbI9I8Xvdc/video.html
@@joetit5969 This would've made the playlist of WNYU's New Afternoon Show in the early 80s as a novelty song.
When I was at school, it was the greatcoat wearing longhairs who eventually cut their hair, dyed it green and narrowed their jeans, everyone else just carried on listening to pop, disco and Northern Soul.
Perhaps we all have a tendency to criticize what we don't understand and music critics it seems are no exception.
I really like this genre. I have a hip hop background, and this sounds the same as the debate in hip hop about oldschool/lyrical rap vs. modern/pop rap. People are quick to criticize what they don't understand. Ironically, the fact that they call it pretentious kind of lends credibility to the idea that it's meant for a more sophisticated or intelligence audience. IMO, most of these critics are massively projecting their insecurities.
Rick Wakeman was interviewed by a critic who didn't like prog. The interviewer said to him "It's pretentious, self-indulgent, overproduced and overdone" to which Wakeman replied "yeah, good, isn't it?"
ELP did put out some stinkers but to put the DOORS on a list of 50 worst bands? Insanity. I love Zappa, Beefheart , King Crimson but after the 70s my tastes went backwards to the blues.
THE DOORS? That isn't even disliked by the general public!
I've found that one can instinctively like something and then come across someone criticising it - for whatever reason. When the person doing the criticism, is a noted'critic' and human nature being as it is, this can profoundly affect one's reactions to it.
This can happen in any walk of life, but is especially rife in musical/artistic areas.
Good video!
I have to say that I like Christgau's opinions most of the time: I really appreciate the honesty in declaring his bias, i.e. which kind of genres he openly dislikes (prog, metal,...), and, for the rest, he seems quite open minded (he has listened to and praised a lot of different kind of musics, from rock to hip hop to jazz to punk to pop to experimental)
What amuses me is that he appreciates Henry Cow avant-prog craziness (there's even a photo with him and Chris Cutler!), which makes the question even more complex and interesting.
Critics like him don't like things that seem "nerdy" which prog. What's ironic about this is that he is a nerd.
For most metal I don't disagree with him. It's just that he seems to have no discernment between good and bad prog. And there's a lot of bad prog. But once you realize he is a VU/punk/post-punk guy at hart, everything he says falls into place. Lyrics, in a word.
I think the oft-repeated cliche' is that Punk put an end to Prog Rock but that may be an exaggeration to say the least. Although the critics featured here are American and The Ramones are specifically mentioned it was here in The UK that Punk truly took off as a musical phenomenon. It's hard to quantify what some of these critics and people in general felt before Punk but my impression is that being a Prog Rock fan in those days was probably easier than coming out as gay. You could walk around with your Prog albums tucked under your sleeve, openly declare your love of the genre, wear a T-Shirt of your favourite band, a Yes one, a Genesis one, an ELP one etc. and few if anyone would think any less of you. But according to the frequently churned out mantra Punk came in and everything changed. Prog bands became "dinosaurs" and an entire class of musicians and music fans became vilified perhaps ironically even by some of the same music critics who championed some of those bands previously. But Prog never ended completely. Far from it. Some of the bands even continued well into the '80s and beyond and became even more successful than ever before; notably Genesis, albeit with a more radio-friendly Pop sound much to the chagrin of many of their earlier fans. It's a myth that Punk "killed" Prog I think and maybe even a myth that it was entirely down to Punk. I suspect a backlash of some kind was probably inevitable sooner or later anyway. Punk may have just accentuated it. But for many years love of Prog Rock was the love that dare not speak it's name. A whole genre of music may have been tarnished unfairly. But maybe the tide could be starting to turn back the other way again. Perhaps now the genre can start to be appreciated more favourably again.
I was 16 in 1976. I was aware of Punk but ignored it. It just seemed silly and worthless. I still queued for Genesis tickets, bought Yes albums and listened to Alan Freeman. Punk didn't change a thing!
I mean, prog punk/jazzcore is a thing that exists, so there shouldn't really be a rift between punk and prog
@@Gibusnipu Truth. There's been cross-polination between punk and prog from the very beginning. Keith Levine of Public Image Limited took guitar lesons from Steve Howe of Yes and there was stuff that came out of the immediate postpunk era that have a prog influence like The Pop Group, The Cardiacs, later Talking Heads, Minutemen etc. The music was more stripped down production wise but it was still creative, technical and challenging. There were also older people like Captain Beefheart and the entire Krautrock (Can, Neu, Kraftwerk, etc) movement that bridged the divide as well. In turn, you can't listen to King Crimson and Rush's work in the early 80s and not hear the influence of the more progressive edges of postpunk/new wave. You can hear that punk meets prog thing in some of the stuff that came out on SST Records (Blind Idiot God, Alter Natives, etc) in the mid to late 80s, and then a bit later with bands like Dazzling Killmen, Nomeansno, Don Caballero, etc. Nowadays there are people like guitarist Mick Barr whose various projects are extremely technical but delivered with stripped down direct DIY production etc.
@@gustavmarieman, Cardiacs kicks so much ass. They're the greatest to me! 🔥
@@GibusnipuPunk took a lot of inspiration from Krautrock, though more so postpunk and Krautrock was often lumped in with prog, so I find it hilarious that there was a rift to begin with.
I’m having a hard time imagining anything more pretentious than listening to a piece of music and thinking, “I’m going to write an essay delivering a judgment on this”. At the same time, I think some amount of pretension is a good thing - during our all too brief lives in a cold and uncaring universe, we need to inject as much meaning into things as we can. Better to puff ourselves up and risk over doing it than to succumb to cynicism, denigrating aspirations to the numinous for the sake of “rawness”.
I think that a good way to sum up those critics or closed minded people is to say "anyone that worships a single genre above all is probably a very boring person" 😴
Is this Prog? czcams.com/video/qIbI9I8Xvdc/video.html
Yeah, that same goes for prog
@@curly_wyn ...you say it as an attack but that's exactly what this guy meant. I'm starting to think you are a music critic.
Man I love that video you used of Gryphon performing live. Really glad to know it’s getting the attention it deserves.
There's a lot to be said for simplicity, and I certainly liked my share of pop and romantic music. But at the same time, it can be too repetitive and boring. More complexity in the music, be it the structure, time signature, the length, or whatever, can be more interesting, especially when done well. I suppose Bangs and Christgau think that JS Bach and Mozart were also pretentious and grandiose.
Punk and other garage band music may indeed be a back-to-the-basics, close to the heart or pulse or reality, or whatever they want to call it, but is that really all that someone wants from music? Simple basics? Put Mary Had a Little Lamb to power chords and call it a day, then! Or would that be too melodic and historically referential?
Yes, it is. That’s what I want and prefer. Fuck all the pretentious “complex” horseshit. All I want is a good rhythm and groove and that’s all.
@@curly_wyn Complexity isn't necessarily "pretentious". More importantly to me, if a song can't capture my mind as well as my ears, then I'm going to be bored with it fairly quickly. And a "good rhythm and groove" can be pretty complex in itself.
Its ok to enjoy simplicity for a moment. Not everything has to be a trojan horse.
@@zackzallie8735 I absolutely agree. It's okay to enjoy simplicity for a *moment.*
But how many moments does it take before you no longer enjoy it?
@@macsnafu Its a personal thing that anyone can enjoy simple things easier than some people
Subbed! Great presentation and vocal delivery, hope you get all the success you hope for!!
As Zappa said in an interview for some bands, the answer to know if a band its or not prog its to respond "sometimes".
So happy you used Circus of Invisible Men as the background audio!
It took me a while to understand why I liked some prog rock bands but couldn't stand others. It finally came to me, prog bands that are primarily guitar oriented (e.g., Pink Floyd, Yes, Zappa, Jethro Tull, early Rush, etc.) have a feel I enjoy; however, bands focused on more keyboard, synthesizer, and etc., are less interesting to me. This discovery may not help anyone else, but it helps me understand my like/dislike of prog.
But now that you know, wouldn't it be fair to reapproach the keyboard oriented bands and listen to them with your new perspective? I'm only saying this because I used to be the same way until I began diving into other prog groups that where exactly like that and I began to enjoy them as much or even more than guitar-oriented bands. Egg, if you haven't listened to them already, is a great place to start because they have many moments where they dive into heavy, subversive riffs with gnarly tones like their fuzz bass and fuzz organ. It's shockingly forward thinking and reminiscent of metal in a way that's entirely their own. Anyway, cheers mate. Keep rocking!
@@unknown6390 Thanks for the suggestion... I'll give them a try.
@@jydymyyyr9630Cool! Also to be more clear don't expect Egg to be like that alll the time. The Polite Force would probably be the best introduction to them
So you don't like van der graff generator i suppose
In terms of over technicality, it is indeed impressive to watch someone play an over complicated solo but sometimes I feel it can go to a point where the excitement wears off and it's very tiring to listen. A song with a perfect balance of completely blowing off then parts to lower you down and give you some space to take it in or vice versa always works for me
Sounds like you're talking about dynamics.
That's totally true. "Excess" in music to me was always about expectations. It can be rewarding when you can expect music or any art to dive into maximalism. Supper's Ready is a fantastic example of a success in maximalism whereas an overly long guitar solo that isn't dynamic enough would be a bad example.
Same
Everyone that finds themselves watching this video, should take a listen (if you already haven't) to The Tangent's album, "The Music That Died Alone". The song is great, and the lyrics are right on point.
Hide in the heart in a secret place
Spirit locked behind our public face
Lost in our forgotten years
Imprisoned by our mental peers
Playing on, through the Ethersphere
Playing on, nothing interferes
And in our own sweet time
In our darkened homes
We'll sneak a listen
To the music that died alone
Played across such jambled staves
Stay through dictated waves
The bar lines slash like red-tape
Across the manuscript of life
All its melodies are traped in templates
And designer culture's knives
Playing on, through the Ethersphere
Playing on, even if no-one hears
And in our own sweet time
In our darkened homes
We'll sneak a listen
To the music that died alone
We hide such high ambition
Behind the vestige of smiles
Deny such thoughts' existence
With cheap "one liners" for a while
Feeding to the critics
All the things that might have been
Who turn ambition to pretention
To outmoded and obscene
Sell our dreams
To the mainstream's sway
Mould our lives
To a typecast for today
We pay people to destroy us
In the media every day
So we'll all know our place and keep it
And never want to move away..
Hi just the feeling of a long time prog lover : I've been into Prog for over 20 years I'm still moved by Yes ,next may I will see Camel on stage I also love psychedelic rock.And next april I will see Steve Hackett ,I will die with my soft spot for Prog I'm good
Well put. I’m actually planning to make my own video on the topic, so I felt I’d give my thoughts on the question here.
I think you’re spot-on with the punk comparison. A lot of rock critics perceive rock as an inherently “youthful” and “immature” genre, at least in terms of aesthetics and general “feel” if not composition. They call it “pretentious” because they view any attempt to create rock which is not “youthful” and “immature” in terms of aesthetics and style as rock “pretending to be something it’s not”. Prog rock was viewed as so-called “low culture” - rock music - pretending to be so-called “high culture” - classical and jazz.
Punk tapped into that image of youthful rebellion in the purest form possible, eschewing the image of “high art” and “high culture” which prog affected. Despite the fact it was just as theatrical and performative as prog, with the shocking and rebellious image being just as much a form of stage theatrics as Emerson’s spinning piano or Gabriel’s flower hat, the theatrics and aesthetics of progressive rock are evocative of performance art and stodgy “high culture”, while the theatrics and aesthetics of punk are evocative of youthful rebellion and “edginess”. Critics, whether consciously or not, see those latter elements as core to rock and the former as anathema to it.
Punk is definitely better and I agree with those critics on it. Prog rock is…ugh.
@An Aesthetic Win You don’t like musical talent and you have the attention span of a gnat. You can admit it. It’s ok.
Great video!! Your channel is awesome I'm so glad I found it
For anyone who lived through the mid to late 70's is that while the critics loved punk music, unfortunately, the public didn't. In the UK and US charts, disco was more far more popular. Take a snapshot of the UK charts at the time and it's full of novelty songs and Disco. Prog rarely featured except in the album charts and was still hugely popular. Punk didn't really feature in either charts. I'm not knocking punk, bands like the Clash and the Stranglers gave us music of the time and I liked some of it, but there was an awful lot of dross out there. Also at the same time in the UK was the birth of bands who were called the new wave of heavy metal, Def Leppard, Iron Maiden and AC/DC. Ask yourselves, how many original punk bands and new wave bands are still recording and selling out live shows into the 90's and 00's, compared to other genres of music from the same period. In summary, you had a conundrum between critics and audiences. It seemed what the audiences loved, the critics hated and vice verse. Try comparing album or record sales of prog/rock bands with those of punk bands during the same period. In the UK, the bands that was killing it during this period were ABBA, Saturday Night Fever and Fleetwood Mac Rumors.
The irony is that many punk band members secretly loved prog rock. Only they couldn't admit to it and risk undermining their punk ethos and street cred.
I do not know. It is like calling Beethoven "pretentious" for writing the 9th symphony with its "grandeur" and "effectivement". In the pass there was popular music, that popular music continued living but some musicians started doing more challenging and even virtuoso music looking for the limits of what coud be done. If critiques started criticizing musicians looking for more than the just popular, perhaps we never would have the baroque, classic, romantique and other great compositions that now we can enjoy. A concerto by Paganini, that is still heard, could be considered a 'show-off" piece, a Strauss' Tone Poem? an excessive "concept" piece and the same is applicable to other great works that are now considered universally beautiful. My children enjoy Genesis, Yes, ELP, Gentle Giant, Premiata Forneria Marconi, etc. and do not make any difference between what is good now and those groups. They appreciate them because they grew-up listening to those groups with me. But I loved when one of them tells me to lend "The lamb lies down in Broadway" or whichever to have something agreeable to listen on their work. And a smile, when they typically said: the more I listen the more I like this record.
Love your channel. Looking forward to new videos!
To me an artist can be seen as pretentious when they are ambitious in their work but fail to meet the full potential at the end result. A prog band like Yes were ambitious but I always felt that they met the full potential of what they were aiming to achieve.
Well, you know what they say: One likes to believe in the freedom of music but glittering prizes and endless compromises shatter the illusion of integrity.
@@progrock Could you rephrase that please?
"This is the correct opinion but you can't say that" 😂
This is an amazing video man!
Thanks dude! Glad you liked it.
“If you think that it’s pretentious, you’ve been taken for a ride”
Amazing video. There should be a whole lot more views, but then again, there should be a whole lot more prog rock fans than there are.
If I would have paid attention to the negative criticism of Bangs , Christaug & others of their ilk I would have missed a lot of great Progressive Rock records since the onset of the Timeline ...
What about the records they championed? Christgau liked Steely Dan XTC, and Randy Newman just to name a few. The Beatles were one of his favorite bands. That wouldn't be missing out. Why are you people assuming that every person who reads Christgau is under some sort of spell where they can't think for themselves? Where they have to listen to everything he likes and nothing else? Is that how you operate? Do you often have to protect yourself from reading anything you might blindly follow? He had friends who liked Genesis.
@@midnightchaseproject Zero contradiction
It's just that the music critics of that era were just a bunch of hipster losers who were secretly jealous that they can never play any instrument on the same level as the prog bands. In fact they were all basically musically illiterate and all they wrote was based on their political views and taste which they somehow thought is important or significant. They were the very definition of pretentious themselves.
Great video! Think we are all guilty of being prog snobs at one point or another.
very nice video, thanks!
Most art and music critics are a joke. Urinating in a jar and throwing a cross in it is high art or rotting meat with bugs on it. A masterpiece! Once the bands who played punk learned to play there instruments it was over. It's high concept antiart! As with all art good composition is looked at with distain by the most pretentious person in the room, todays critic.
Those that can - do.
Those that can't - criticise.
R. Christgau calling anyone pretentious is rich. He needs to look in the mirror.
i think the whole thing is music critics care more about pop culture because they are pop culture observers. not music listeners.
When this video is shorter then some Prog songs. Anyways this was a amazing video I found. Thank you for it.
I have yet to read a music critic that I agree with. They hate what they don’t understand and love what most people hate.
2:25 - That is exactly the reason why "Critics Hate Prog".
Or at least, why they did in the Seventies. The critics back then tended toward a strong, developed aesthetic consensus - hammered out in late-night coffeehouse bull sessions and at campus parties, where they listened to Dylan and danced to soul music. Electric Dylan's combination of dense, poetic lyrics and simple, rootsy music was, I think, their ideal. Anything fitting in with that - The Velvet Underground, for example - was golden. Anything defying it - like Sgt. Pepper, the emerging British prog genre, or Zappa - was not.
One opinion I dislike about prog is accessibility, the genre definitely has some pretty in-accessible stuff (that kinda goes for all extremes of each genre) but looking back its not neccessarily the most difficult genre to get into (i'd argue its easier than metal or punk, I mean a guy like me with ADHD should be more likely to not touch prog with a ten foot pole) a lot of the original 70's prog had stuff had stuff that was more balanced and easy on the ear, the issue is reach. I'm certain that the average joe who enjoys their music would be down to listen to one of Camel's 5 minute jams or experince some of Annie Halsam's vocal performances for the band Renaissance but they'd have to be told about it from someone who knows about that music because they'll never be handed that music by spotify or youtube.
Current day prog is a different matter though, a lot of the bands there have gone completely off their rocker in terms of trying to sound sophisticated leading to lack of proper structure and more just random instrumentation wankery.
Only commenting cause you mentioned Vacant. Such an underrated piece that is an exceptional prelude to Stream of Consciousness.
I think it’s impossible to be pretentious in music. If the music was made, how can the band be less good as they pretend.
Because it's too powerful for them
As a musician (drummer and guitarist) I always hated punk. I just found it boring. Basic drum beats, simple guitar chords. I like something that challenges me. I want to have to read charts to figure what the hell is going on. Something that I have to study to figure it out. This is why I love prog and jazz music. If I could find a punk group that challenges me as a musician, I might give it a chance. Thats not to say some simple music cannot be good, but it's just boring to play.
I love punk among many other genres, but I also agree with you. As a guitarist, never have I ever bothered to learn to play a punk song. Too basic and not challenging at all. I want to learn something when I learn to play new songs.
Critics be like "I don't get this music. They must think they're better than me"
Because critics like something that looks vagely like Music but it's not
why would you listen to critics in the first place? no thanks. i'll make up my own mind.
Ah, yes.. The Clash... the guys who gave us Sandinista... Three whole LPs utterly devoid of pretentiousness. 🤣
As a classical fan as well I come across this all the time from people into just classical and romantic era.
They have certain qualifications on what they think music is supposed to sound like and express and disregard modern and contemporary classical music as meaningless academic noise.
As much as I do like Beethoven, I enjoy Xenakis, Stockhausen, Varese, Webern, Messiaen far more.
Snoobs and critics of all kinds are just a sack of sh**t
Who takes any notice of critics, we would all still be using stone mallets if they had their way
Answer-- Prog is INTELLIGENT music and most critics aren't the sharpest knives in the cutlery drawer...
I think it's more that prog is nerdy and critics want to come off as cool and hype.
Sure but your wording will read to other people that intelligent people will resonate with prog and nobody else. This just isn't true and it never will be. Critics aren't all completely dumb, of course not, it's about expectations and experience. Christgaeu EXPECTS rock to satisfy a primal, almost juvenile desire, and he didn't have the experience to engage with the music honestly-which is why his writing focuses so much on the image of the musicians and not what they're doing. And to be honest, no one should really be professionally criticizing media if they're going to approach art with such a pedestrian framework. Otherwise why would we critique if we aren't going to respect the artist and be unbiased?
I think the psychological dimension which best characterises Prog lovers is curiosity. Curiosity is correlated with both positive (intelligence) and negative (ADSH, psychopathy) psychological patterns. Prog listeners may have a high self-esteem, but so do artists of all genres. Classical pianist Yuja Wang confessed in an interview that she is narcissistic. Meekness is not a character trait which goes well with public performances. That might be a self-selection effect.
I wouldn’t say prog is pretentious, because they know what they’re doing. But maybe indulgent is the word. As in overplaying. There’s still amazing prog works out there.
Also Robert hates it because it’s not raunchy and rebellious like traditional rock. But then, not all rock is. Plenty of soft indie songs.
You make many points I've been making for years.
I like to draw the analogy between having rock critics, that have some sort of idealized view of rock (simple, raw, not musicianship oriented), review prog. It would be like sending a restaurant critic, who does not like sushi, to review a sushi restaurant. Of course, you aren't going to get an unbiased, good review, not matter how good it is.
Let me add, the problem may stem from having the word "rock" in the name of the genre. Rock critics then think it is fair game for them to review, since they believe it is within their purview. Even if they are entirely unqualified, and biased, to review it.
Not to mention, there are plenty of subgenres of prog, that have very little to do with rock, in the first place.
For example: much of the subgenre, avant-prog, has much more to do with modernism in classical music, than rock. Univers Zero, Thinking Plague, Art Zoyd, Henry Cow, for example, often come off sounding like contemporary classical ensembles, than any form of rock.
And many bands of the prog subgenre of Zeuhl (influenced by Magma), sound as much like progressive jazz ensembles, as they do rock. Bands like: Magma, Setna, Eskaton, Free Human Zoo, Universal Totem Orchestra, etc.
Would any of the mainstream rock critics, have enough intellectual honesty, to recuse themselves of reviewing an avant-prog album by Thinking Plague, even though they are included in the umbrella of prog?
I used to hate progressive, so i understand common people who dont like it, but it seems weird that the critics hate this genre. I think it is an american phenomenon only!
I’ve seen British critics hate on prog as well. It’s just not good music.
PRMBA can be quite cringe sometimes when his bias oozes out in his rants
Progressive rock misses the mark on being commercially successful but that's about it. Lol.
And that’s bad IMO. Accessibility is to me the most important thing in music.
@@curly_wyn That's sad. I would never have fallen in love with guys like Coltrane if accessibility was all I cared about. I thought A Love Supreme was random gibberish my first listen, but now that album makes me cry like no other. Just makes it seem like superficial first-impressions are paramount, which is a close-minded way to navigate art, and even life in general
@@curly_wyn If accessibility is the most important thing in music, then I guess Katy Perry's music is more important than Beethoven's.
@@curly_wynA lot of your favorite music is unaccessable in plenty of ways, taking a look at your playlists. It's not a one way street, buddy.
@@curly_wyn If you think accessibility is the *most important* thing in music in general, it gives the impression that you do not want to be challenged (even in the slightest).
And similar to what Unknown said, being "unaccessable" is actually pretty broad. Someone somewhere probably thinks punk is just some tryhard angry brats screaming into a mic. Maybe some of it is, but given your expressed taste in punk you'd know better. Same thing with prog, classical music, hell even early industrial music and noise music/"music" (depending on who you ask).
I love Prog but i also like Punk, New Wave, Metal Alternative Rock and Rock and Roll. I try to mix it up.
Was Robert Christgau the Stanley Crouch of rock critics 🤔