What Everyone Always Gets Wrong about WWII Grenades
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- čas přidán 12. 12. 2023
- In a lot of movies, TV shows & video games about World War II, the American MK 2 "Pineapple" Grenade & the German Stielhandgranate 24 "Potato Masher" are often depicted operating in much the same way, though in reality, these two iconic pieces of military equipment were actually quite different.
In this video, we'll learn more about the differences between these two grenades and how they're represented in popular media. - Zábava
While we always see Wehrmacht troops with stick grenades, the Germans actually used far more egg-shaped frags akin to the American Mk.2. Something like 70 odd million stick grenades vs. 80 odd million egg grenades. They also developed a slip-on fragmentation ring for the standard stick grenade as a result of the experience on the Russian front. They were issued on a 1 in 3 basis with standard stick grenades. Interesting facts I learned from another CZcamsr known for his diligent research of official German documents.
I was just going to write the exact same thing! I guess, we both watched the same youtube video. I never realized that Germany actually used more "egg-" than stick-grenades. My Father was on the Eastern front, and in 44 on the western front. I hope that our host corrects his video some day.
That’s a lot of boom
Steilhandgrenate (style-hahnd-gre-nah-teh)
The stick handgrenade was more "photogenic." Which is why you see more German soldiers with it. When your system is run on propaganda what is more "heroic" than a stormtrooper with a couple of stick grenades stuck in his belt.
@@timothyhouse1622 -- Actually, the "Potato Masher" style grenade was designed that way because of the ergonomics involved; the stick makes it easier to throw accurately, farther. The reason that the stick grenade was liked for photos - in both wars - is because throwing those grenades accurately was part of the "trench-clearing" tactic the Germans developed in WW1.
I don't know if it was more "heroic," but throwing the stick grenade was LOTS easier; the stick allowed the thrower to use a snap of the wrist, and it was much easier to throw without exposing too much of your body to enemy gunfire.
The Germans actually used more "egg shaped" grenades than the stick ones. They had frag sleeves for both which honestly makes them much more versatile. The reason the stick Grenade became more well known is that they were more visible in pictures being stuck through the belt rather than in a pouch. Hollywood also played its part, lots of prop choices are done for storytelling reasons rather than historical accuracy so props that are unique to one side or another play an important role in identifying things for the average viewer.
When I was going through Army basic training at Fort Polk, La. in the mid 1970's one of the areas we trained in was used as a grenade training range by WW II, Korean War, etc. trainees. I found all sorts of interesting stuff there in and under the sand. Probably the most interesting were a couple of the "pineapple" (U.S. MK-2) grenades that had simply swelled and split open lengthwise down the casing to release the explosion instead of breaking along all those little fragmentation lines and spewing sharp metal shrapnel in every direction. Obviously, it was a long time ago, but I also think the detonator was still screwed into the top of the grenade, minus the pin ring and flip-off spoon handle, of course. I also found "half shots" where either the top half or the bottom half of the grenade was pretty much intact, but the other half had been blasted off somewhere. On another note: the little "baseball" grenades we used packed one hell of a punch. They'd shake the ground you were laying on after you threw it. I always liked the German "potato-masher," because it had that stick, which let you throw it a lot further and with more accuracy. But, we didn't have any live ones of those to play with. Unfortunately. My dad brought back a metal case (about the size and shape of an attaché case) when he came home from WW II. It was one of the containers the Germans used to ship their stick-grenades. I think it held something like 15 of their grenades. He also said the German grenades were mainly just high explosive "concussion"-type, but that the Germans sometimes slipped "fragmentation sleeves" over the 'boom-boom' part. one of the things I liked about the U.S. grenades from that time were that the anti-personnel mines were threaded to allow the user to unscrew the flip-handle detonator and then screw the grenade onto the mine detonator. We played with all that stuff as kids -- they were 'inert,' though. And we did discover that you could get a bit of a 'bang' out of them if you punched out the fired percussion cap and replaced it with a #10 shotgun shell primer. We weren't very good at figuring out how to make a 'delay-train,' though, so they'd just 'pop' as soon as the handle flipped off. Growing up on a rural farm with a WW II vet for a father was a LOT of fun once all the other farm work was done. We'd set up mine-fields, etc. and 'play army' a couple of times a week with the neighbor kids. We were always hunting, shooting .22's and bows and arrows, etc. It's amazing how accurate you can get when you're practicing nearly every day. We shot a lot of walnuts out of trees with your arrows. We'd just take the metal tip off it so it wouldn't penetrate the nut and ruin it. God, those were the days! It's a shame so many kids these days don't have the opportunities we had. We even tried to do a POW camp with a tunnel! Of course, that was right after the movie "The Great Escape" came out. I remember digging through that shale was tough as hell. It wasn't a very deep or long tunnel because of that. Sorry for the long reminisce, but your video brought back so many memories. Thanks!
I read the comments exactly for this kind of story. A sort of "you set them up, and I'll knock 'em down" situation where the video feels around history like a blind person in a China shop, and then the comments have the actual story. I made black powder with my kids, home made fireworks for the 4th, until Karens got me in trouble. That said, they both know how to make black powder now, and one of them used a heat gun to speed things up. And it was the real deal; we used water and corning to create very fast powder. Pestle, mortar, all 3 ingredients right from amazon.
That sounds really, really cool. I wish I would have had kids so I could do that kind of stuff with them. Back when I was a kid, most of our black powder we got from the hardware store or a local gun shop -- or, some of my dad's muzzle-loader friends would give us partial cans. They did this because we'd made up stories that black powder changes as it ages and it might not be as consistent when they're trying to hunt down that deer. "A new can would be better, honest." Unlike .22 LR's we never seemed to have a shortage of black powder or that nice, green cannon fuse. .22 LR's were $10 for the 500 round "brick," but we usually could only afford a couple of 50 round boxes every other week. They were something like $1.10 or so per box. Since you guys know how to make your own powder, maybe a good dad and kids project might be to get a flintlock rifle kit and put it together. Then, go out and find some good, hard flint and teach them how to knap it into gun flints. (If they got good at it, they could probably make some $$ selling them online or at reenactments.) They could also learn to make arrowheads and arrows, too. If there was one thing I could wish for right now, it would have been the ability to have spent more time with my father when I was a kid. I'm 68 now and it's not unusual when I'm fixing something on the farm or making something that I think about my dad showing me how to do it so many years ago. And don't forget sling-shots! There's a TON of fun you guys can have with those things.@@bansheedearg
@@luke_skywanker7643 great ideas, but I'm 53 and both my kids are adults now. If I make grandfather though, there will be trouble brewing. I think your stories are more interesting; I've never held a grenade, much less got to know their finer qualities. As to making flintlocks, I've made pneumatic spud guns and know my way around tools, it could be a future hobby and right up my alley. Thanks for the suggestion and Merry Christmas, my friend.
👍👍@@bansheedearg
Sling shots,we had "wrist rockets" and marbles. It was lookout pigeons. The statue pooping types, not like'tumblers' or others that people raise.@@luke_skywanker7643
My father disliked the pineapple grenade in WW2, said the german one was much more effective. He said the pineapple (made of cast iron) would disintegrate into dust when it exploded, except the lumpy base which could fly back in one piece and was as dangerous to the thrower as anyone else.
Yikes! That's quite an informative story - thank you for sharing!
It's a good rule of thumb that the minimum safe distance of a grenade is usually further than you can throw it.
This is wrong the american pineapple grenade doesn't disintegrate, big peices break off. Ive thrown similar russian/soviet grenades. The peices can fly very far. The us i beleive filled them with black powder or a small explocive charge in ww2 while the germans used high explosive but no cast iron fragments
I don't know about the US grenade, my dad (long gone now) was an instructor in the British army and talked about British WW2 pineapple grenades with a cast iron case. Said they explode to mainly dust with 2 large pieces from the top and bottom flying a long way in any direction.@@manchagojohnsonmanchago6367
Something you might not think about is the standard issue rifle for Germany was the Kar98K, which is a bolt action rifle. Trying to fight in urban combat or clearing a building with a bolt action rifle is gonna suck, unless you have something to stun/disorient the person on the receiving end.
True, and why the German infantry came to be called "grenadier ", the individual rifle took second place to maneuvering close enough not necessarily to shoot their enemy, but to throw grenades at them, like really direct artillery
Hey Hank, another interesting bit about the MkII that most media doesn’t show is that most early war MkIIs were painted yellow (another origin of the pineapple name) marking it as HE ordnance. This was eventually replaced with a yellow stripe around the neck of the grenade. This is almost never represented in movies and tv shows despite the fact that these yellow pineapples were still around late into the war.
On the subject of the grenade effects, having thrown a fragmentation grenade before, it is surprising how little flash there is. Just a big cloud of dust and smoke, Band of Brothers got this pretty accurate. I think it’s also understated how loud they are.
Yes! It is always interesting to see those early- & pre-war yellow grenades. And that's great to hear about the real-deal... I'm sure they're wicked loud!
Actually it was called a lemon early on. I sorry has a book about it.Yo
I said Osprey .
In the early episodes of the Pacific miniseries, one of the characters actually hands a bright yellow MkII hand grenade to his friend. It's a blink and you miss it scene, but I like that they show it in it's original color. Later on in the series when you see them they're the green with yellow indicator band.
I've seen ones with white marking s & copper inner liner.
In my service, I was trained in the use of the Swiss HG43, which was of the "Stielhandgranate" type. It contained 350g (3/4lb) TNT. The handle with the detonator had to be screwed into the bottom of the charge. The charge had an additional outside tread at the top and a matching inside tread at the bottom. Two or more charges could be screwed on top of one another by means of these treads. A grenade consisting of three charges or 1kg (2 lb) of TNT could be thrown by hand fairly easily. An add-on charge with 1.5kg (3 lb) TNT was also available. At the same time the outside tread could be used to screw the fragmentation sleeve onto the charge. It was designed to fragment into 100-ish pistol bullet or larger (plus thousands of smaller ones) sized shrapnels on detonation. In peace time it was illegal to use a live grenade with the fragmentation sleeve, because the trajectories and mass of the shrapnel was unpredictable and people could get killed over a mile away.
This was a deadly grenade. Far, far deadlier than e.g. its NATO counterparts. It was also very versatile. Its biggest downside was the fact that it had to be thrown after the igniter was pulled, since it had no spring loaded clamp. Some recruits get scared when they throw their first live grenade, and they won't let go of it. That's no problem with Mills bomb type grenades but the HG43 would go off, thrown or not, leading to undesirably darwinistic outcomes. It was also somewhat bulky and heavy.
Another problem with those grenades is that the Swiss don't often have anyone against whom to use them! I jest.
Oh, that's one nasty little piece of work! I wish I had a couple of cases of them. U.S. army (old) here. We just had those damned little "baseball" style things.
Grenade training in the US...
There is a box made of thick logs and a hole in the ground with sloped sides.
When a trainee freezes and refuses to throw the grenade, a SGT "helps" him drop it and kicks the live grenade into the hole.
The small practice charge goes off in a big chamber underground so no one gets dead.
When you are a smooth operator, you can release the handle and reduce the time the grenade will be on the ground at the destination.
Five second fuses can give the enemy a chance to pick it up and return it. NOT GOOD.
The Swiss haven't been invaded for a reason. They take self defense extremely seriously, and don't skimp on weapons, in any way. That sounds like one badass grenade, perfect for throwing down hills and mountains. Yeah, i wouldn't bother trying to invade Switzerland. Everyone is armed to the teeth and constantly trained with the deadliest weapons available. No wonder their crime rate is so low. Everyone can defend themselves with expert deadly force.
@@OKOKOKOKOKOKOK-zn2fy I've always thought a "smart grenade" would be a good idea. Something with a an inertial system to tell when its been thrown, how far its gone, and what altitude it is, maybe a bluetooth sensor to tell how far it is from friendlies, and some other smarts. Aerial bursts over targets and variable fuses so people have no chance to take cover, run away or throw back the device. Even disarm if enemy not present so it can be reused, and cannot be used by the enemy if captured.
The Mk 2 grenade was not made of steel. It was cast iron. I learned this firsthand in the early eighties when my cousin found an unexploded Mk 2 in the woods near his house. We were 12 at the time, and he took it upon himself to remove the detonator and explosive fill. He brought it with him the next time he came over. It was, characteristically of cast iron, only lightly rusted. After I enthusiastically chewed him out for screwing around with explosives, I cleaned the rust off with the wire wheel in my dad's shop, oiled it up, and gave it back to him.
The grenade most likely ended up where it did during the First Army Maneuvers at Plattsburgh in 1939.
Cast was/is used for grenades due to ease of production by casting and its tendency to shatter.
True steel would not have been wasted for a grenade during wartime when it was valuable.
Which is why the American Grenade was considered a defensive grenade and the German concussive grenade an offensive grenade, I believe.
Exactly. You use the defensive grenade when everybody is dug in and friendlies should all be in cover. You use the offensive grenade when you have team members moving towards a target or just before you're going to rush a room to clear.
When I was in the military in Spain, we had a grenade that was of a can type: you used it like that, no shrapnel, when you were assaulting a spot, and it had to be less dangerous for the assailants; instead, you put the device into a shrapnel cup if you happened to be in the defendant part, because you were under cover into the trench and the grenade was more harmful to the assailants. Thus, the american grenade was intended for defending, and the german one for assaulting.
I mean the american grenade can be better for defending. But saying and assuming it was INTENDED without knowing and assuming from experience of other greandes , is a bit far unless you actually know why.
@@VexingWeeb They're actually classified as defensive and offensive grenades, he is correct. You use the defensive grenade when everybody is dug in and friendlies should all be in cover. You are defending. You use the offensive grenade when you have team members moving towards a target or just before you're going to rush a room to clear. You are attacking.
I love the grenade as a weapon,the way that it is represented on figures is amazing,and it is an amazing part of any figure for any modeller,so i am glad you covered the differences!
I'm really glad to hear it - thank you!
I would point out that the US Mk 2 is iconic to Americans. But for Commonwealth troops, there was a wide array of grenades available. Two of the most common were the type 36 or Mills bomb, a fragmentation grenade with an appearance similar to the Mk 2, and the Type 69, a smaller, concussion grenade.
I read some time ago that the US defense department designers thought about US GIs and Marines growing up throwing baseballs.
The training and transition would be easy than throwing a "stick"
Easy assumption to make.
There was a US attempt to capitalize on the ability of all right thinking American mens' baseball throwing prowess during WW2.
They indeed designed a baseball shaped grenade, it was called the T-13 Beano grenade.
New subscriber here. Just got back into scale modeling. I mainly like working on Military models, especially American WW2 vehicles. I was also a history major in college. I really appreciate how you tie in history to your work. You are one of the few that do. Your video production quality is really good as well. Keep up the great work and thanks for the channel
Thank you so much for your support! Glad to hear you enjoy the channel - happy building!
You'll like it here. I'm also one who just returned to the hobby after a long hiatus. Welcome back.
Great video - the difference makes it a little clearer WHY you can see photos of Americans carrying captured German grenades in addition to their issued grenades - a choice of effect .
Perhaps!! Good point
The stick grenade was basically an offensive weapon while the pineapple grenade was more for defense. Just learned that recently.
Good discussion. However, i would recommend covering the difference between an offensive and defensive grenade. It changes your discussion on tactics.
Good video, just one point, the "Pineapple" or mills bomb, grenade was first issued in 1915 to the British army. The ridges and waterproof coating were designed for grip in wet and muddy trenches. Take care..🎉
I was attached to the Swiss army on a close combat course in 1983. We used their stick grenade, live firing in a specially built village, room to room. As you say the stick grenade went boom but not a lot of shrapnel. However, they also had a shrapnel casing which could be screwed onto the outside of the grenade, so you could either use this one when in defence (throwing from cover), or with no casing use the grenade in attack, when you and your section where more exposed. Good piece of kit. We also used it to detonate improvised explosives which we built from C4/petrol etc.
Another issue: Those two kinds of grandes behave differently when you throw them and when they land. The egg-shaped grenades tend to roll further. So by adding the stick you get more precision.
and range
@@mortar5282 Quite skeptical about the range. After all heavier = less range. He doesn't say what the weight is, but given 3X the explosives and the stick, I'm guessing the German grenade is heavier, and therefore likely won't be thrown as far.
Maybe you get more precision after it hits if the stick truly does roll less on average, but I'd guess you get far less precision on the initial landing point. Granted maybe given Germans don't play baseball so they can't throw very well. But Americans during WW II would almost all would have been throwing baseballs since they were children, and the Mk 2 is very similar. I'd guess most of them could hit quite well with it given it just has to be close, not exact.
stick is basically extending ur arm man@@shannonkohl68
Hello Hank. Hope all is well with you, my friend. You did a great job explaining the difference between the American Hand Grenade and the German Potato Masher. Definitely, the hand grenade, it did more damage. I'm glad we used them during these conflicts. Again, thank you for sharing this military history with the modelling world. Kudos to you.
Thank you very much - glad to hear you enjoyed!
Nice video my friend. At least the US and German grenades were generally safe to the user if used correctly.
The Italian "Red Devils" with an "All ways" fuse that didn't always work (Breda 35 OTO 35 and SRCM 35). Throw it and it might go bang............or not.
It might just lie there and go bang randomly or if accidently disturbed.
The Japanese Type 91 and 97 were similarly horrendous. Dodgy fuses (didn't like the humidity!) and I don't like the idea of smacking a grenade head on a hard surface to activate it.
The frightening British "sticky bomb". Arrrrgh!
Thank you for the informative and entertaining vids. Cheers 🦘🦘🦘
I'm glad you made this video. I have explained this to others that the German 'potato masher' was an assult grenade in the past. The lesser known german frag grenade was used as frequently but doesn't get the screen time.
True, I've read that the Germans used Defensive (frag) grenades even more than the HE potato mashers, but the HE just "looked" much better in the pictures and are much easier to notice - if you picture a guy with a HE on a stick on his belt, you see it. If he has Frag grenades (shaped like eggs) in his pocket, you don't know about them.
czcams.com/video/Oq7oOhpzrX4/video.html I believe this video covers it a bit
@@kalkovonschpritzendorf1914 JJ really has some good videos.
I like the kind that blow up in slow motion in a huge fireball while you and your quirky buddy(who doesn't like you but somehow you've found a way to make it work) dive for cover in the fore ground being perfectly framed by the explosion in the background.
Excellent and INTELLEGENT explanation. By 1974 we had FIVE different grenades issued to us, and maybe five more available for "special usage", NOT including smoke and "tear gas", or signal types (like a flare that burns on the GROUND), and "flash-bangs" for "non-lethal" use. Until the movie "We Were Soldiers" came-out, I'd never seen a white phosphorus grenade in a movie.
Good video! I seem to remember in Band of Brothers there’s a really good but horrifying example of a GI being caught by the blast of his grenade combined with glass from a shop window - adrenaline overtaking training I guess. One thing you didn’t mention was that stick grenades could thrown about 20% further than a UK or American grenade, that’s definitely an advantage in combat.
In case you're interested, Japanese tests of Molotov cocktails showed that they worked best if you had some sand in them (1/2 or 1/3 of the way, I don't remember exactly). The ballast helped you throw them further and more accurately.
Despite the iconic m24 being thought of as the typical German grenade, they produced and fielded far more M39 Eirgranaten or egg grenades. I've owned both types as a collector. "Frag sleeves" were designed for both the m24 and m39 grenades. However, original examples are hard to find these days.
Great video, informative and straight to the point doing the job in 5 mins, unlike many bloated Videos on CZcams.
Great video, thanks! I've always wondered if there was an advantage in one over the other as it relates to throwing accuracy and distance.
Think you nailed it. Was interesting to see how the weapon was deployed. In the films you show. Great work.
Great info once again Hank! Very interesting!
Thanks so much!
Those Stielhandgranate grenades, having on offset weight balance, could be thrown a considerable distance, in comparison to other types of grenades due to the centrifugal, end over end whipping force generated. When coming to rest on angled/un-even ground surfaces after being thrown, unlike other grenades which might simply roll off/away, the SHG would generally stay put, pivoting its heaviest part in the direction of gravitic incline....
-Imagine the force of the going blast wave when theyd used the 'SHG 7 pack' arrangement?
-6 Stielhandgranate explosive body cans, sans stick, held together within a round-ish '6 pack' frame, being open in the middle where you could then slip & lock a singular SHG into the center, the central primary grenade then detonating the other 6 when primed....>BIG BOOM
It is my understanding the "fragmentation lines" on the USA Mk.2 grenade (basically a copy of the British Mills Bomb) were not for fragmentation, they were to give the soldier throwing it a better grip on the grenade during wet and muddy conditions (such as the trenches of WW1). Plenty of videos exist showing those grenades do not fragment along those lines.
Yeah, I did a research project for Western Civ II on German developments in Infantry and Defensive Doctrine during WW1, and the primary concussive effect of the German grenade was a surprise to me. It makes total sense when you consider the tactical intent of stormtroopers, but reading Ernst Jünger’s memoirs for color commentary quotes, and seeing repeated references to being in close proximity to an exploding potato masher and not catching shrapnel was a little confusing without that tidbit of info .
The stick grenade was more situational, it could be used for concussive effect in an assault or slip on a fragmentation sleeve in a defensive role.
Stick grenade looks cooler, and the points you mentioned make it one HELL of a beast. I'd go with it.
Thanks for clearing that up I always thought they did the same job but in your video clearly not
Great video, it should be mentioned the grenade depicted in movies tend to explode as if they're an artillery shell, they tend to explode with a dull "crump" and smoke than huge fireballs.
In Switzerland the stick grenades were like LEGO you could screw a frag sleeve or an additional explosive sleeve. Or you could assemble several in a row to a boom stick ( cant throw it anymore but a great way to remove stuff)
The French army uses both types depending on the usage. They call them "offensive" grenades (blast grenades) and "defensive" grenades (fragmentation ones)
As a Royal Engineer, we had little use for hand grenades, we had Hayricks, Bangalore torpedoes, MKVII anti tank mines, Ranger AP mines, Rapid Cratering Kits, plus a whole lot of other cool stuff that made a big bang!
I used both the *HG43* (Stielhandgranate) and the *HG85* ("Pineapple") during my time in the Swiss army as a _Grenadier_ . The old HG43 was a monster with about 300g TNT. You could also screw two (or more) heads together, or a _shrapnel_ sleeve. The grenade was detonating between 5.5 to 6.5 sec. and we almost always did _cook_ the grenade (i.e. counting to 3 before throwing it, needless to say, strictly forbidden). So on the upside, longer reach (despite the weight), better accuracy, _shrapnel_ or not, additional heads On the downside, no way to resecure it, almost impossible to use as a mine, and heavy and cumbersome to carry.
I did not know that. Movies do tend to overlook that. I was aware the mk2 was a frag but never really knew the details of the stick. I haven’t seen every war movie made but just one scene portraying its effect like a big flash bang instead of just an explosion would dispel that. A game could do it too by just disabling your functions for a while as long as you are outside the actual destructive blast.
Thanks👍
That's a great idea!
Don't be fooled by the use as a flash bang, the concussive force of that much TNT will absolutely kill you at close range, too.
Switzerland had a stick grenade to the late 1980s.
A shorter handle, initially we got them with wooden handles, later plastic, and a large explosive load.
In exercises we removed the Splittermantel, a screw on shrapnel ring that differentiated the use, defensive, with the ring, or assault, without.
This grenade was known as the HG43.
You committed a fundamental flaw in not talking about the Model 39 "Eihandgranate", M39 or Eierhandgranate 39 which was more common than the type-24 (Stielhandgranate 24).
Excellent analysis. I would choose the fragmentation grenade. It did much more damage
They are different tools for different jobs. The analysis is flawed unfortunately because it does not clarify enough that these are classified as "defensive" and "offensive" grenades. In fact, the Germans did have frag grenades, too, and they used them more than the stick grenades. They just aren't as iconic. They used the stick grenade in the same way as we use flash bangs today, to clear out areas in urban fighting, where you don't want shrapnel going through thin obstacles, hitting team members. And in enclosed spaces the high TNT content is more reliable than a frag. Of course, they used the frag grenades in the typical way you see in Hollywood.
The Germans did make a charge head for the stick grenade that had a waffle pattern to it intended to fragment. These came out later in the war, after they realized how handy a frag grenade really was. They also updated the activation of the grenade to start the fuse. Going from the old style twisting off the bottom cap and then pulling the string to a simple pull knob at the top you just pulled up. This style was first introduced with the German egg grenade and then after its success was adopted for use with all grenades.
_"These came out later in the war, after they realized how handy a frag grenade really was."_
That would be really surprising, given that Germany produced far more egg grenates during WWII than Stielhandgranaten.
Thanks. I never knew that about the M24!
A frag grenade is primarily a defensive grenade. An HE grenade is primarily an offensive grenade.
Some other factors that can effect the way these grenades perform are the ground conditions, the surroundings and the weather…..
Very good explanation. After WW2, the Americans actually investigated how the MkII fragmented and discovered the cut grooves didn't really matter that much and this is why us see the later M26 "Lemon" Grenade and still later M67 "Baseball" grenade. the US also made concussion grenades and these were used more in tight spaces such as house to house fighting and in tunnels to cause cave ins. The Germans also had a fragmentation grenade and they were used quite regularly - the Eierhandgranate 39 (egg hand grenade). These were made as both offensive and defensive variants. The Stick grenade was very much an offensive grenade. In any case the egg grenade lacked the iconic look so it is often neglected to the foot notes of history.
The grooves were just so you can grip it better.
@@Ken-fh4jc, which explains why after WWII they investigated how the grenades actually fragmented and determined the grooves were ineffective and they moved on to an easier to produce M26?
It is a common misconception the pineapple design was to improve fragmentation. It has nothing to do with the fragmentation it is just so you can grip it better.
Very informative.
Thank you!!
Somewhere I read an article on the German Granade. They had "sleeves" that would slide over the "charge". They could be stacked. Their purpose was to create more "fragments"
Stoßtruppen mark of approval on this video! Wunderbar explanation
I worked with a guy who was in Vietnam, fairly briefly, because he was a machine gunner in an M113 and was riding along a road while some ARVN troops were clearing bunkers along the route with concussion grenades. Well, they were supposed to be using concussion grenades, but someone threw a frag grenade that bounced off the front of a bunker and exploded outside, sending a tiny piece of steel through my coworker's liver. The doctors told him it was a "million dollar wound" and he was going home. While he was in the hospital he got word that his father had committed suicide. He was 18. Good times.
He was a really sweet guy to work with.
Interesting video. I'd always assumed that the Stielhandgranate 24 casing housed ball bearings like an S-Mine did as they look very similar.
Cool info. Thanks!
Thanks for watching!
I seriously - in my whole career - never ever heard someone claim things about these grenades. Your title therefor is completely of the facts. Nevertheless you are completely right about how these grenades functioned and still function. So great explanation and elaboration, but your title man. I can understand you want views, but keep it sane man. Good luck with your channel.
My father-in-law was in a heavy company of the 5th SS Wiking division on the Russian front and he always kept 2 stick grenades with him. One was kept in his belt and the other was in his boot, or as he said, "one for him and one for me."
One thing I think you missed that I think is notable to mention. I the difference in how one could throw each grenade. I have not thrown either of these but at first glance I would argue the 'throwability' of the potatoes masher would be a lot easier due to its design than the Amercian contemporary. Just the fact its on a stick would seem to make it easier.
I would like both types. Thank you
Maybe I have a bias. As an officer in the Swiss army, I've done both types. The stick grenade was clearly my favorite. I could aim it more precisely, and if necessary I could screw two or more on top of each other to increase the effect.
The German Stick grenade had that long handle which allowed the user to hurl the grenade much further. However, the long handle could easily be grabbed by the Allied soldiers and tossed out of their fox holes (rendering them useless). The pineapple grenade did not suffer from the same drawback, and could not be easily retrieved and tossed back. Also, in urban settings the pineapple grenades could be tossed into windows or over walls to kill/maim the enemy without a significant risk to the user (or his fellow soldiers). Also great for tossing into armored personnel carriers.
Something to chuckle about. The Germans had Hand grenade throwing as a sport discipline. The record throwing a Stielhangranate was 78 meters.
I personally would opt for the pineapple; I would assume they are lighter and take up less physical space so you could carry more of them
We were trained at how to smoke a grenade, at Ft Leonard Wood in ‘98.
It was nerve-wracking but so fun!
Letting it smoke for 2 seconds in your hand before you throw it so the enemy doesn’t have time to grab it and throw it back at you before it explodes.
Well, that was informative.👍
Thanks very much!
One issue with the Pineapple grenade was it's way of fragmenting... Because the casing doubled as the shrapnel there were many instances where only one side of the grenade would actually blow out and fragment as intended... Explosions taken the path of least resistance even if that path isn't obvious... Modern frag grenades have pieces of metal inside them that are designed to be blown apart and act as the shrapnel instead of the casing acting as the sole source of the shrapnel... In many cases I think concussion grenades would be preferable to frags when clearing buildings especially in areas where the strength of the walls isn't known or isn't that good, e.g. if you're clearing a building using the method of throwing a frag in first you do run the risk of the shrapnel actually coming through the wall and hitting whoever is stacked outside getting ready to clear the room or building... A concussion grenades would work similarly to a flash-bang with a bit more bang, ok, a LOT more bang... But less of a chance of hurting the assault team......
Good observation, Germans actually had both types of grenades and they used them just how you describe. Use the stick grenade exactly like a flashbang when you are attacking, use the frag grenade when you are defending and everybody (on your side) is dug in
Is there any difference in the range these can reach? The lengthened handle of the potato masher may help a lot, as it lengthens the arm movement
Yes, you the reach is greater with the stick hand grenade.
G'day Hank, it's a no brainer. If you want to do bodily damage to the enemy and your blokes aren't in harm's way; then use a frag grenade. If you want an effect like a modern day 'flash bang' then it's a stick grenade for the job. Mind you, I'd rather be a way off doing overwatch with my sniper's rifle.
Got to say, you've got an impressive collection of 'props' there in your studio. Military surplus supplies must be more affordable in the US. Where I am it costs a fortune.
Really enjoying your videos, glad I subscribed! Cheers, Bill H.
Excellent. Thank You. FYI I've had some experience with the Flash-Bang grenades and it's not pleasant.
I've thrown some heavy dummy grenades in training and i noticed their shape changes a lot where it's gonna go. For exaple throwing them at dirt the MK2 will bounce towards unknown direction and it might not go exactly where you plan it to go sometimes, the M26/M61 will roll and might do the same, the M67 will roll too but it wasn't as bad from what i remember. The good thing with the german M24 is that you can drop it further and won't move much from that spot. Downside is it takes much more space and its uncomfortable to carry.
I'd like to give heads up to the Verdun / Isonzo / Tannenberg games which take great care in distinguishing between Frag and HE grenades. Both the amount of "supression" is different (you'll get stunned more by the HE if you survive) but unlike the HE, which a pretty solid kill radius and most people are safe outside that range, the HE grenades do hit people randomly - sometimes at very large distances like 15-30 meters from the explosion. But at that distance it comes down to just bad luck - the chance of a shrapnel hitting you that far away is very small. But not zero.
Context is super important for these. An American marine defending a foxhole from a Japanese banzai might enjoy a box of mark 2s. However, going room to room in stalingrad clearing them out at close quarters might rather a concussion grenade that isn't gonna cascade shrapnel through walls and doors and hit you too.
The "pinapple" grenade was replaced by the M26 grenade inj the 1960s. The M26 has a smooth sheet metal body and an ovoid shape, Inside the body is a prescored metal spiral which will fragment into LOTS of small fragments rather than the fewer and larger fragments of the older cast iron pineapple. The older model M2 or M2A1was around for some time until stocks were exhausted. In 1971 i had replacement soldiers sent to my infantry platoon in Viet Nam carrying pineapples. We disposed of them pretty quickly and re-equipped them with M26s. At the same time there was the M67 "baseball" grenade which had a spherical body and was developed on the theory that Americans had plenty of experience with throwing baseballs and would be able to throw a ball shaped grenade further and more accurately. We didn't like it as well as the M26 because we felt that it was easier to booble and drop than the ovoid M26. The M67 in various forms is the standard US army hand grenade today. There was also the smaller "golf ball" grenade (I don't recall the Mark number) which was about the size and shape of a golf ball. We never used them because they were even more prone to being boobled and dropped than the baseball shape.
LTC (R) US Army
I've always thought that the baseball or pineapple would be the easiest for a westerner to throw, given our experience with ball games like baseball. Never understood the German stick grenades, as being so unnatural and odd to carry and throw.
Logistics play a crucial role in determining the optimal grenade choice. If there's a vast supply of grenades available, a fragmentation grenade seems more favorable. This is because you can strategically launch numerous grenades from a secure position, relying on them to reduce enemy numbers. In contrast, as highlighted in the video, a concussion grenade may lack effectiveness without simultaneous infantry involvement.
The video fails to point out that Germans had both types and used them for different roles. This is more evident when you realize they are literally classified as offensive vs defensive hand grenades.
Two of my Mom's uncles were in the 29th Infantry Omaha Beach DDay +1. One of them was awarded the Bronze star, the Silver and a Purple Heart. My Mom remembers in 1945 when he came home from the war. He took her fishing on a hot summer day so he was wearing shorts. His legs were covered in shrapnel scars from either a German frag grenade or a mortor round.
2:35 "You can see all these pebbled bits of steel designed to create shrapnel" - Serrations on the grenade exterior have minimal effect on the fragmentation. Interior serrations however do: The Germans supplied fragmentation sleeves for the Steilhandgranate and the Eiergranate with highly effective internal serrations giving effective and less random fragmentation than either M2 or Mills Bomb grenades. Source: Ian W Hogg.
A grenade designer would add, that the external serrations on the M2, Brit and Soviet grenades would at least promote good grip in muddy or slippy conditions - because they don't have a handles.
Dad who was in ww2 suggested probably as many people were killed with their own gernades than the enemy, he knew of a number of accidents. He also said, which you never see in movies, you do a 2 count before throwing(it was part of the training in the Canadian army) so they could not throw it back at you.
Remember that fuse was made by the lowest bidder. I only cooked of grenades when I was clearing a bunker or a building.
They do have a nasty habit of bouuncing off trees 😮
My Dad was almost killed by a green replacement who panicked and dropped the grenade (US). And to make it worse, this was stateside training! His shoulder hung carbine caught it in the stock. He went on as a LT with an artillery platoon in the Pacific. Couple other near misses … guess the fates determined I would be here today.
When I served in the US Army (1972-1992), we used the M26 fragmentation grenade and its smaller counterpart, the M67 concussion grenade. The M26's lethality was measured this way: LD50 = 5 meters. Translated, this meant that 50 percent of those caught in the fragmentation radius of 5 meters could be expected to receive fatal injuries. Of course, this did not consider air or confined area bursts. Consequently, all other explosive munitions were expressed i.e. 81mm frag had LD50 = 30 meters; 105mm artillery frag had LD50= 50 meters, and so on. I wonder what the Mk II's LD50 was?
Germans had both types of grenades, they also had a sleeve added to the stick grenade to produce frags. They also can strap several stick grenades to create a grenade used against vehicles.
The WW1 German stick grenade also had ribbons attached to the stick to improve accuracy and enable dropping vertically into a trench.
It's interesting that in Company of Heroes 2, the German units that actually get access to the M24 instead of rifle grenades have the stick grenade act as a frag. The German forces also get 'concussion' grenades in their arsenal, so I can only assume that this 'standard' grenade has the frag sleeve over the M24.
The deep grooves on the American grenade aren't there to make it turn into shrapnel but rather to give the thrower something to grip in mud, or inclement weather. A tightly coiled wire inside the grenade was the main shrapnel with that grooved outer case added shrapnel. The German grenade had more than one version but the two main ones were the high explosive version as described here but also another that had a metal sleeve that fit over the high explosive casing and would give some shrapnel. Another difference is that the stick grenade made throwing the German grenade a lot further than the pineapple grenade.
The classic MkII "pineapple" grenades of the WW2 era did not have a fragmentation coil as you describe but were simply cast iron in construction.
Cast steel was introduced with the M26 "Lemon" grenades of Korean War vintage.
The first US grenade to have a fragmentation coil was the M61 (basically an improved M26), also known as the "Lemon", superceded quite quickly my the lighter M67 "baseball" grenade.
I like how in movies a grenade will flip a car. Another two pet peeves of mine are that in movies they always show the view through binoculars as a horizontal figure 8 when it should be a single circle or how guns rattle with every move. If I had a gun that rattled like that I'd junk it and get a new one
There were a few other grenade types used as well that you havent mentioned, such as incendiary ones (white phos for eg). I won't list them here in case you want to do another video that includes them
Great video Hank! I'd take a Halo style plasma grenade... well... you did bring up video games... :D
Seems like the stick grenade is a better offensive weapon but the pineapple grenade is designed for defence. Great video.
The pattern on the American grenade is NOT designed to create shrapnel - it is to improve one's grip on the weapon. Take a look at examples of shrapnel produced by this grenade.
Seems like it would be easy to modify the potato masher with some stick on fragmentation. A self adhesive band of metal pieces would be easy to make, even with home made materials.
Interesting video, what the time frame on this granades befors Theo blod up?
These come down to the two main doctrines that were around: the allies (including the Americans) were primarily focused on the defensive fire line, ie stand and deliver and then move in - this is evident in the two main weapons used, namely the semi-automatic M1 Garand rifle and the .30 cal machinegun (I'll get back to those). The Americans saw the rifle as the primary weapon, with the machinegun playing second fiddle: you can have your guys lining up in a fireline, shoot and use frag grenades (also called defensive grenades) since you could throw it and then immediately take cover, so the risk wasn't overly high. The machinegun was quite overlooked in favor of the rifle.
On the other side of the hill you had the Germans, whose doctrine was focused on fire and movement. That's why they had much better machineguns than the Americans in their MG34 and 42 variants, but the rifles were just there to support the machinegun - which is evident in that during the entire war they used the oh so slow G98K bolt action rifle. But, that didn't matter too much since they also used the M24 grenades, also called offensive grenades, which they used for the purpose explained in this video.
That is not to say both types don't have their place - the Germans used sleeves to ramp up the fragmentation factor of the M24, and the Americans did use an offensive concussion grenade as well, the Mk III, and the Americans used bolt action rifles and the Americans semi-automatic rifles, both not in accordance to the doctrine.
The German Stielhandgranate 24 was like a modern flash-bang
Those are realy useful...in Return to Castle Wolfenstein!
this is a very good video, thank you. But there is no mention however, of the fuse time. Germans pulled with a string and the American's just threw the grenade. How long did each type have before they exploded? Thanks again
If I'm not mistaken there was a fragment casing that the German troops could fit over their stick grenades.
Edit: The pineapple grenade killed/wounded spraying shrapnel while the stick grenade used a shock wave caused by the explosion of the charge to kill/wound. Someone please correct if I'm mistaken.
Your right
You didn't mention the fact that a stick grenade can be thrown a lot further than a grenade without a long handle.
Because that's implausible. Think of all the sports like baseball, softball, etc. where athletes can literally throw a baseball with accuracy hundreds of feet. Nobody could do that with a stick grenade. Plus, a small ball like object will be easier to throw into small openings (windows, hatches, etc.). Notice, no modern military has adopted stick grenades, so that evolution alone proves the ball grenade is superior in all respects (weight, size, accuracy, distance, cost)...
In my first job, I worked with a German veteran who survived the Russian front and eventually surrendered to the allies on the western front. He said there was one crazy member of his unit in Russia who would set off a potato masher on top of his helmet while standing perfectly straight. He did this entertainment as a bet for cigarettes and wasn’t injured because the blast would go outwards and up instead of down like the allied grenades. Karl said the guy couldn’t hear them laughing at him though….
The stick grenade could be thrown further, however the frag could be rolled into a room or under obstacles or vehicles and you generally dont have to go into a room to clear it (depending on its size) after you lob in a frag, where's with a stick you have to generally go in a clear (again depending on size) because its just like a huge flash bang, I'll take a frag over stick in building clearing and save ammo, sounds bad but its life or death if you leave "stunned" enemies behind that might come to and decide to come up behind you later
Read a history of the American grenade in the 1950s. The grenade was originally loaded with a low explosive used to propel artillery shells. This was done so if one grenade in a box went off it couldn't set the others off. For a pineapple grenade this produced about a dozen large fragments which could travel over 30 yards. when loaded with TNT the armors counted 5000 fragments which traveled more like 5 yards. So they switched to TNT to reduce the chances of hurting the thrower.
once you pull the pin, and release the spoon, Mr. Grenade is everyone's enemy.