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You Missed the Point of MGS4
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- čas přidán 13. 10. 2020
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2008's METAL GEAR SOLID 4: GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS was certainly well received upon release, but it's become a bit of a joke on the internet in the decade plus since. Though even the creators of the game have admitted the MGS series was never meant to have such a definitive conclusion, and that the game was initially created due to intense fan pressure (including death threats), could it be there's more to MGS4 than its harshest critics would have you believe?
In this brief yet succinct video, I analyze the one thing people seem to be missing about MGS4: the whole point of its existence. Beyond catering to fan demands for 'one last mission' as Solid Snake, MGS4 remained, I claim, 'loyal to the end' - loyal, to what MGS as a series has always been about: subverting and even challenging player expectations, in a fourth-wall breaking way.
Liquid Ocelot is a second hand reboot of Liquid Snake delivered through a second hand.
Hes not even that, since nothing he does or says is even evocative of Liquid Snake
Still a better character than both Ocelot and Liquid from Phanton Pain.
I guess ocelot got second hand smoke too 🚬
To be fair, Ocelot wasn't really liquid, but was just acting. Doesn't he admits it at the end of mgs4? I'm sure it is at least implied at the final battle.
@@supremeworld87 I actually like Ocelot from TPP. A gentler Ocelot because he's working with t̶h̶e̶ ̶l̶o̶v̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶l̶i̶f̶e̶ the legendary Big Boss is a breath of fresh air from the character. Underused, sure. But still charismatic.
To be honest I never had the feeling that this game was bad in any way, or that the fanbase didn't like it. Yeah, it's basically a fan service orgy but it's also very critical about a lot of things. I still love it like the first time I played it.
My only real complaint about it was the lack of gameplay. I was only able to play MGS2, MGS3 and Peace Walker before MGS4, since I got the Collection used at GameStop so the MGS1 download was already use but still loved this game except for not having enough gameplay.
I often see complaints on MGS4 for so call "ret-con". People with this kind of view just have to read carefully how Kojima cleverly left a door for an in-universe explanation in his writing (for instance his explanation on the 12 original Patriot members being dead 100 years ago, which was mentioned in the end of MGS2, was explained as a result of a "whole load of crap" information extracted from GW).
Frankly, I think MGS4 was a good closure to the MGS saga, explaining everything and even bring us back to Shadow Moses where everything began. In fact, I think they could have gotten so far (from a story perspective alone) only because Kojima wrote the story of MGS1 in such outstanding quality to lay the foundation for the subsequent games. To this date, I still like MGS1 most and wanted a remake, but at the same time, the revisit at Shadow Moses in MGS4 as a look back in life makes this franchise even more epic...
@@stormmeansnowork Amen, dude!
@@stormmeansnowork This is good, isn't it?
@@Saladinos Pretty good
Now it makes sense why mgs 4 was followed by "why are we still here?"
MGR: *To slice every cyborg and destroying nano senators of course.*
The next mainline Metal Gear game was Peace Walker, not Phantom Pain.
Its true, dragged back by an abusive studio to try more milking of the genius even after he delivered both his magnum opus and then his grand finale. V is almost an open letter some of the time
@@Rad-Dude63andathird that only adds to my point
The line that follows is the answer: "Just to suffer?"
What Jorin said about everyone looking for the "real Big Boss" brought an interesting thought to my mind: Big Boss is more of a meme than he is a person, even in the Metal Gear universe.
Haters got mad but I LOVE how Phantom Pain retconned Big Boss out of the 1st Metal Gear game, replacing him with Venom. Remember when you saw the REAL Big Boss? Nope! Chuck Testa! Just a meme, an idea, a shadow. Not merely clever storytelling, but also a veiled threat at his own idiotic fandom: keep pushing, & you'll get further away from the Real Metal Gear Solid, not closer.
@@TheSoulHarvester He's technically still in the first game. You just don't kill him. But it does further emphasize the idea that anyone can be big boss. In fact it takes the idea from MGS4 when Johnny finally stands up and basically takes over for Meryl. Solid snake becomes replaceable. Big boss becomes replaceable. In the end, none of it really mattered. And I think that's why it matters ironically.
@@LithFox that's postmodernism, babey!
Yeah, the most important thing Big Boss says to Snake in that mid-credit info dump is, "HEY DUMMY, GO BE A HUMAN BEING FOR THE FIRST TIME IN YOUR LIFE"
@@LithFox The same concept applies to MGS2 with Raiden replacing Snake, That anyone can be moulded into a great soldier in the right environment and circumstances, Yet it makes the subject of Snake more impressive whilst simultaneously non essential.
Especially how in MGS4 Raiden saves snakes ass a multiple times too.
I always love to see these videos because everyone has a different interpretation.
Hey Raiden, how is that MG Revengeance sequel going?
@@strikeforce1500 Konami is playing us like a damn fiddle.
Metal Gear is everything just as much as Kojima is God
We can all agree that MGS4 is a masterpiece though (true MGS fans)
Jared Martin my good man, I couldn’t agree with you anymore.
My essay on why MGS4 is a great game:
*YOU HAVE A METAL GEAR FIGHT WITH LIQUID OCELOT*
@@salk9943 Shameless fan service? Did you even watch the video?
Like it or not, this.video nailed it!.MGS4 was Kojima's Dear John Letter to the fans in which he.did add a few but hey! Remember the good times. Kojima gave us exactly what we asked for. We simply did not realize what we've done. Yes true, he stayed on to do most MGS5 but let's face it, as good as a lot of it was, it wasn't necessary. While I am thankful for MGS4. I realized he probably should've stopped at 3. I'm pretty sure he was well aware of what he'd done and.knew nothing could possibly live up to 3. That bar was set on impossible no matter how much we wanted it. 4 was it's death and we got exactly what we asked for.
@Franshisk can u form an opinion not made by a youtuber before you
My man solid snake gets absolutely shitted on for the whole series... especially for mgs4
Yeah all that being a huge effortless bad ass despite overwhelming odds (including recessive genes) in MGS1 and 2 not to mention OG Metal Gear 1 and 2 really shit on Solid Snake. Like wut? He was lied to sure, but there are characters in this series that get way more shit on than Solid. At least Solid maintains his dignity before becoming an old man.
How about Gray Fox getting constantly manipulated or Octocon's entire family pissing themselves with fear or Johnny's family constantly shitting themselves? Raiden alone gets shit on more in MGS2 than Solid in the entire series with being lied to, tortured, taunted by his fake AI handler and fake AI girlfriend, being stripped (of physical clothes and personal identity), and being rescued then shown up by Solid Snake who Raiden was basically VR trained to be.
@@habadasheryjones "or Johnny's family constantly shiting themselves" lol good one. Imo the character with the most fucked up story is venom snake /medic.
Take a look at Snake in MG2 and compare him to Snake in MGS1. Snakes big development arc covers from MG1 to MGS1, not MGS1 to MGS4.
@@bigboss6145 - That's the unfortunate thing. My first introduction to Solid Snake was in MGS1. But i never really got to play as that badass again in the same way. MG1 & 2 should be remade.
Very similar to the death of joel in the last of us. Death is an unpopular theme
Man, this Guy is faster than a heart attack.
Faster than fox die
sheer heart attack has no weakness
Faster than ocelot shooting
No offense, Scully
Yeah but the quality just isnt there
I think most people misunderstood it because they expected it to be the most espionage game of all time, but the world of MGS was always destined to end up on a war economy that controlled everyone and everything.
Good point
If you have the most of all time then it will no longer be the most next time and then again and again, morbius is a great example of this
@@ouchpotato2221the movie ever
This guy has made it his mission to become Metal Gear. His spirit is metallic and warrior-like. I salute thee.
That is why i respect him i go thank god he gets it unlike others who go on for hours and still don't get mad over retcones
I always thought that MGS4 was the perfect way to end the series. Sure the game play was different from the previous ones, but MGS4 was more of a first/third person shooting game than a sneaking game. They changed the game play mechanics to fit the narrative of the game that was explained in this video. I'm going to re play MGS4.
Well it is the end to the series even though we got V it's a prequel
@@jaredmartin7040 Nah. MGS V Still tried to answer questions that never needed to be answered. Big Boss Did not need extra prequel games. His story should have ONLY been MGS3 SE. We didn't need anything else after that.
@@Xxandrew01 opinion alert
AddaeAkono. Put it kn extreme mode and it won’t be a third person shooter anymore. Lol
@@Xxandrew01 Really? Portable Ops was excellent even if the gameplay left something to be desired. It saw his transition to becoming Big Boss. Peace Walker undid that, however made up for it by giving Big Boss closure on the Boss. I agree partially on the Ground Zeroes/ The Phantom Pain but I still enjoyed it.
It frustrates me when people hate on this game. I LOVED this game!
Wait people hated on mgs4? I mean I know the long cutscenes issue but this game was amazing
I couldn't find a good reason to why it's "a bad game"
It's a very good cinematic experience.The gameplay is unique and awesome, but there's a bit too few of actual sneaking/fighting.I loved almost every gameplay mechanic, from the Solid Eye to the gunplay.But it's good.Really good.
@@antalgergo2699 It was the perfect conclusion to Solid Snake's story. In my opinion at least :)
@@alecaquino4306 Same here.
Jack and Rose?
- "I'll never let go!"
I never thought they names refferrence Titanic
@@MrCebulsky this is also a titanic reference
Omg....never clicked on to this
BRUTHA!
IT'S BEEN FAR TOO LONG
DEAR BRUTHAA
The lastly, your pretty good👈👈
With the way MGS2 ended, there was no way fans would've been okay with the series ending at that point as it left more to be desired.
It should have ended the way its creator wanted it to
@@mooganify which left more to be desired by fans thus giving konami even more reason to get him to continue the series
@@asiatichebrew5100 Some stories are meant to have ambiguous endings. Look at Inception.
@@mooganify And then we have SE, PW, GZ and TPP
I have no comment on your actual comment I just wanted to say I really like your afro pfp
“This is Good, Isn’t it?”
That Is perhaps the greatest end Line in history.
Metal Gear Solid francise is more then a game. It's life
Life imitates art. Metal Gear.
@@marisseandgale5365 bdautiful.. just beautiful... And everything comes to an end. Leaving a legacy behind.Metal Gear did just that.
Mgs2 was way ahead of its time. Check out some videos about it if you haven't seen them
It was simultaneously both conveying this message, and wanting the franchise to essentially die. 2 was to be the last, but he was begged back. 3 was to be and epic show to end it all, but then was begged back. The exhaustion shows, and you can say he tried to kill it. But these points encourage contradicting results. 4 failing in the eyes of fans was both the best and worst thing. Worst thing cause that was the franchise send off and it very well could of killed the franchise. Best thing because it showed that the audience wasnt totally hopeless. The industry was yes going in the monotone fps direction, but there was a now known desire for more than just that. 5 was a brilliant piece to end on, but it has that paradoxical conflict. It was to be the end again, but if it way too good the a 6 would be encouraged. But not good enough and it wouldn't be satisfying. Then he gets kicked near the end and Survive kills the franchise. So I guess everyone happily sadly wins and loses?
I think 2 was never supposed to be the last one. Kojima is too slick to just leave loose ends like he did at the end of that game and expect to not make a sequel . 4 I think was the send off and it still is but I think Kojima has such love for the snake character and the political and cultural understanding of contemporary history that he can't help to make something that is relevant for it's day and also 20 years from when it was made
@@prometheusrises I can agree. All I have to comment on is that didn't he actually state that his initial intent for 2 was to be the end? Your point of 4 can strongly more stand for the creation of 3 coming from 2. Its clear he loves his work, and hes known to have a side of perfectionism. There are so many concepts flowing at once to reason for each decision hes made, that we cant easily discern it to one thing, bit I think the oversimplified generalizations get the basic ideas across. Not read to write my own video essay in the comments.
Kojima went back to Mgs so many times after being "done" thag it's obvious that a part of him was never prepared to fully let go. He was as addicted as the fans antagonizing him.
maybe he was trying to kill the series with 5, by throwing so much money at it.
@@kingnro1 This is demonstrably incorrect. You basically have to call Hideo a liar for this to be true; he's very adamantly expressed the exact opposite of this multiple times.
"you see, it was bad on purpose". The never ending tale of MGS fans.
The Phantom Cope.
This is the excuse always used as copium. Like with the new Matrix movie
This game is very fun. Beat it like 25 times lol
Damn
Same
Those are rookie numbers.
@@FluffyBunny9002 does it help that I played it that many times without any milk? 🧐
The way the weapon system, for instance, is done in the game lends itself so well to replays. There were so many guns in the game and so many ways to play with those guns and their respective modifications that I am drawn towards replaying it. I'm replaying MGS2 right now and 4 might come next.
I thought the point was Kojima screaming "Let the series die and move on with new characters before things get even dumber than 4!"
And then we got phantom pain.
@nigel_bd That's why it's called the phantom plot, but for all its faults there's still one more game that came after.
The one we don't talk about.
@@kinggeo8545 *It* is not even "Metal Gear" anymore. It's a bastardization of everything Kojima created all those years ago.
@nigel_bd if you’ve played all other MGS, don’t sleep on V. I say this as someone who put it off for years and kinda hated it at first. The main thing is that the moment to moment gameplay is maybe the best and most engaging of any game ever made, no exaggeration. Super smooth and super deep. It plays nothing like 4 (I like 4 by the way). The problem is, V is not really even an “MGS” game in many ways. Plays much differently and has a totally different tone. The story is basically not there, what’s there is a lot darker and more serious than the other games, and it comes across as contrived and unfinished (whether that was deliberate or not). There are some genuinely brilliant/moving parts though, and the overall meta concept/twist is classic MGS. At this point, it’s my second favorite to play after 3.
Hence, MGS was a millstone, a curse that Kojima was bound to.
Death Stranding was Kojima's first work as a free man
I didn't miss the point. I think there's many different reasons to like or dislike the game or individual elements to the game. A lot of these themes started in Metal Gear 2. Big Boss is back because it's a sequel and that's what happens in sequels and you can see these themes echoed in every subsequent game upto Phantom Pain where you can't even have a body double anymore, but rather a "mental copy." Volgin was literally a walking corpse and everyone is damaged in some way desperately trying to regain what was lost, hence the name Phantom Pain. It's a cover song of a song that was written by someone else long before and it's what you get when you seek more and more of something. Nostalgia can be painful becaus it reminds you of happier times in the past. Reboots, Remakes and the like are made because people long for the past, but you end up with cheap imitations of something from long ago that has turned to ash at this point. It's no wonder you're literally called "Punished Snake" in MGSV or "Old Snake" in MGS4.
I always thought this game was fantastic. Sure, there's a few points here and there that I thought could've been improved on, but overall it was a truly phenomenal experience, and a great sendoff to the series
I just replayed MGS4, first time in maybe a decade, the idea that fans think its a disappointment is sad.
This was a masterpiece and a great conclusion to a great franchise.Great video btw, it just gave me some greater insight of the hidden messages of the game. See whats happened to Star Wars, Marvel, superheros movies, remakes and spin-offs, it makes a whole lot of sense.
And more than a decade later people still don't grasp the fact that MGS4 (and Kojima's way of doing thing in general) is more than the sum of its parts.
All the apparent filler and all the cheesyness and all the bloat, are there to guide you toward those unforgettable moments that make these stories so inimitable, so unique.
You can't truly appreciate "that" moment of silence and clarity, unless you come from noise and madness.
MGS4 is designed around contrasts, moreso than the others.
I have my own gripes with it, but structurally and thematically is a 10/10.
MGS4 is a tricky one. When I got my ps3 (it came with mgs4) I was so excited to play it and it DID NOT disappoint. I saw all the characters I loved. There were throwbacks and nods to all the previous games. I completed it a number of times and I had felt that it was the perfect finale to the series.
Fast forward a number of years MGS5 a game that mechanically is better in most ways left me feeling somewhat like "I wish it had ended it at 4" narratively speaking at least. But I went back to mgs 4 at a friends house and I found it a deeply irritating experience with constant codec "interruptions" that were once a joy.
Mgs4 is the ending. Mgs5 is not
But codecs/cutscenes "interruptions" always were in the series.
@@maxrates Cry about it
@@TheKrowkaBoomgs2 is way worse with codecs
The meaning of the FOXDIE plot point wasn't that anyone could be Snake. IIRC it was meant to be a timer for the clone's lifespan but mutated into a spreadable virus after a certain point, essentially making Solid a walking bio-nuke with a timer.
3:50 Sooo goddamn true. The Gulf War was (a la Baudrillard) a simulation of all the wars America had fought before. The two sides were on two different planes of reality.
Another wonderful video, sir.
Seeing the Middle Eastern wars as parodies of World War 2...Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, ISIS, Taliban...at the end of the day you start to realize they're parody Hitlers.
3:44 This is known as St George retirement syndrome. After George defeated the dragon, he went around looking for other dragons to conquer, which ended up being bears, wolves, then rabbits and eventually thin air. This metaphor can also be applied to activism.
Ah the original COD 1- 4. games about war.
(Reference COD4 years layer)
Every game after, all action movies.
@@TheLPRnetwork WWII cod were pretty brutal back then, same with MoH, now they've devolved into mindless dopamine pewpew
This metaphor cannot be applied to activism. Not sure why you said that. It fits perfectly with the MGS franchise tho.
@@TheSoulHarvester Both COD & Destiny have been trying to remake the glory days of COD4 & HALO 1-2.
I'd say activism fits the description.
@@TheSoulHarvester Of course it can. Modern feminism is a great example. The great dragon has been conquered generations ago, now we have a modern generation who desperately want to be remembered in the same light swinging at thin air.
What I like about Metal Gear is the story. When Metal Gear snake eater came out its release and played it. It all started to come together especially when I noticed this is not solid snake this is the original snake " Big Boss" . Plus there was "the boss" before big boss. When Metal Gear solid 4 came out. It showed a message that sometimes we forget about the meaning of the past. The boss is message was misinterpreted when she had died. Eva probably was nostalgic when he saw Solid Snake almost look like Big boss when he was young. When Big Mama said "my have you grown" to solid snake. It is full circle in the MGS world.
I think Kojima wants to move on from MGS series after 2 and hand the series to younger staff. It felt like that after he became ZoE and Boktai producer and tried to make both IP popular. But sadly both IP doesn’t do that well...
My take. MGS4 was a dear John/Love letter to the fans. While it offered a ton of fan service and I for one am grateful for that. I don't think I'm the only one who got choked up at the return to Shadow Moses. If you played all the MGS before this, you get it. It drives the bittersweet message that all good things must come to an end and Big Boss's final line before dying makes it very clear. However, I think 5s ending going the pulp fiction route was incredibly genius as it brought everything full circle. It ended right back where it all started in 1995, Outer Heaven and explains how Big Boss was able to return in MGS4.
You always seem to miss the fact that Kojima is usually also talking about neoliberalism from the perspective of a Japanese Socialist.
"MGS has surpassed merely a series and become for many who play it an almost religious crusade for truth and life everlasting."
*tugs collar*
I think the jonny and meryl romance is the worst thing a video game has ever subjected me to and is entirely pointless
I think not, there teach player "let them go the past and start the new one"
@@kerryvanskonsol792 that was a big part of the message of metal gear solid 2 and that game is way better then 4
Liquid?
Snaaaaaake
BROTHER!
LIQUID!
SNAAAAAAAAAAKE!!! IT'S NOT OVER YET
Just finished mgs4 last night, thanks bro i loved it
What? I love mgs4, & still play it today!
"You ever think about quitting?"
"This is good, isn't it?"
can you imagen, Meryl telling Johnny, " i can called you snake tonight? ".
This was a good video, but "Metal Gear Solid 4 was a mistake" did it better, I think. It was definitely longer, but it gets into details of both the narrative and the development surrounding the game.
well i mean you're comparing a 3h long video to a 11 min one... obviously one would go deeper into details than the other
I cant help but think his choice of words at the start is a shot at that video.
Which i hope he didnt just go off the title and actually watched it. Its clear that Steak Bently cares very much for it.
I cant help but think his choice of words at the start is a shot at that video.
Which i hope he didnt just go off the title and actually watched it. Its clear that Steak Bently cares very much for it.
some ideas are easier to convey that others
Oh snap i was GUNNA SAY WHERES MY MGS4 vids!??????!!! Thank you!!!
It's always the same thing "this mgs game is really misunderstood, your interpretation isn't correct, instead it's this"
Liquid Ocelot only exists because Kojima regretted killing off Liquid Snake. He didn't plan on making so many sequels, but if he knew ge was going to be making so many sequels he wouldn't have killed off Liquid Snake. That is the reason Liquid Ocelot exists.
Thank you for making a video essay I can watch that isn't like 4 hours long.
Dear Mister Jorin Lee,
I have a very personal reason for making this request, and I'm specifically making it of you because I trust you to take it seriously. I'd really like someone to talk about the actual significance of the mustaches. I imagine you understand the basic premise behind the design decision already. I'd be happy to share what I can of my own research and conclusions. Believe it or not, I am fairly certain there is something deeply significant being presented by Hideo Kojima himself in the imagery of Old Snake versus Liquid Ocelot.
I'm interested
facial hair in metal gear
Trololololol
Liquid Snake: Genetics are superior.
Solid Snake: My skills are superior.
Naked Snake: I'm the original best.
Venom Snake: Hold my fulton...
I'd say MGS4, and by extension Kojima really just berated fans and spat in their faces with this game. If you've built up this devout fanbase that loves your work it's only understandable they'd want to see more from it. Is it really that bad for people to just wanna see Snake kicking ass again? That's like an artist building up a fanbase and then calling them all idiots for following and loving their work, and expecting more songs from them. Like what? Please get over yourself Kojima.
This was literally a love letter to the fandom with so much fan service. The game really flexed the Cell architecture of PS3, tying the story up, cameo’s etc. He couldn’t have done more.U can always go back to older titles for young snake, I liked grouchy fed up Snake on his final mission. It was imo an epic and legendary conclusions.
the mgs series is so god damn good, its so sad it wont ever be the same.
I liked the game, was it perfect? Not a chance, but I think the game was fun
This is the best metal gear solid game in my opinion, the gameplay and controls are the comfortable and improved, the details, the new camouflage system but mostly the story is amazing, made me finish it 3 times in one year, the stories behind the boss fights is also very interesting and haunting.
I'm not convinced that Hideo planned this all so meticulously. But this is a great essay, and I hope the upcoming movie takes it into account and includes layers of interpretation. I would agree that I did not 4 as much as all of the others.
He absolutely was making it up as he goes
You Missed the Point of Peacewalker! please do it
Peace walker is in my mind the best in gameplay, Themes, and music
How far ahead do you plan your vids it is literally amazing how you keep up with the content output while keeping a brilliant quality to both production and research
Production always takes a back seat here.
Really like the analysis here - not to dig in too deep, I'm also curious if people have thoughts on the hugely bloated nature of the cutscenes. I'm playing this again for the first time since I originally played it as a kid on release, and the thing that still strikes me the most is just how aimlessly directed most of the exposition cutscenes are. This is part of my replay through MGS, having just wrapped 1-3, and those games are FULL of talking heads blabbing out the exposition, but it feels much more dynamic, more excitingly directed. In 4, we spend 12 full minutes getting introduced to our belching merchant. The game itself seems to acknowledge this bloat, allowing you to run around with the MK II during the mission briefings. Intentional or not, I think it really adds to the unsatisfyingly abrasive feel of the game.
Yeah because kojima had full control on mgs4 unlike the previous ones
Crazy to see not only a positive video on mgs4 but one under an hour lmao
Even though it was my first mgs game, i understood the overarching theme, although, only after playing the other games in the series i was able to fully understand the complexity behind the storyline and get most of it's references and details,obviously.
It still is the most special to me for personal reasons, but they are all unique, can't pick a favorite.
how presumptuous of you. I didn't miss the point of MGS4, you did
I didn't play it until 2015 and when I returned to Shadow Moses as a man in his 30's who played mgs1 as a 14 year old I was overwhelmed. It was like my life came full circle and related and do relate to Snake's character more than any other. I was brought to tears because like Snake I've lived many years alone but kept pressing on fighting the good fight.
Absolutely outstanding. I'm sure you're not the 1st person to lay all this out, but this is an absolutely elegant summary. Anyone who sees your sprawling filmography & thinks to accuse you of over-relying on verbosity has their criticism stopped dead in its tracks here; proof that your at-times rambling exposition is a result of indulgence, not intellectual or rhetorical weakness. We can choose to invest the time, or not, but there's no longer a question as to whether you're capable of brevity.
I think 2 was never supposed to be the last one. Kojima is too slick to just leave loose ends like he did at the end of that game and expect to not make a sequel . 4 I think was the send off and it still is but I think Kojima has such love for the snake character and the political and cultural understanding of contemporary history that he can't help to make something that is relevant for it's day and also 20 years from when it was made
yeah like they talked heavily about the patriots and then expect nothing to come of it,what was suppose to happen was that kojima wanted someone else to make metal gear games but no one was competent enough.
y'all can tell yourselves this, but the fact is Kojima isn't a massive dork about his own productions they way the fans are. You were never meant to "find out" who the Patriots were, or any of that stupid lore shit. He loved his characters, & the narrative, which is why he planned to stop after MGS2 & leave them on a high.
He was "slick" enough to know what didn't need further explanation, but he wasn't slick enough to evade Konami blinding him with rolls of hard cash.
@@TheSoulHarvester nah
@@TheSoulHarvester But that wouldn't have been leaving them on a high, that would have been leaving them unfinished. Like, if the game had ended with the title card after Snake's post-credit monologue about genes and stuff, then sure, I could buy that as a sort of open ending to the franchise, even if it would have been a weak one. But it makes no narrative sense whatsoever to put another sequel hook at the end instead if you're planning to 'end' the franchise. Of course people are going to clamour for more MGS if you do that!
@@SwordSaint550 In real life, you will also often find mysteries that aren't resolved to your satisfaction. These aren't called "cliffhangers" or "sequel hooks," they're just things you have to wonder about for yourself, draw your own conclusions on, or shrug your shoulders & get over. Sometimes, a "weak ending" is preferable to "an unnecessary sequel."
Folks are always going to clamour for more Metal Gear. It's a great franchise, & a great story. That doesn't mean they deserve it, or that the director who helps make them should want to devote his entire career to making them. It definitely doesn't mean Kojima couldn't have gone on to make better things instead if he hadn't been spoon-feeding y'all increasingly bitter & sarcastic iterations of *the exact same story* until having to literally get himself fired.
Again, you guys are making excuses for yourselves but the reality is: Kojima was all but forced into continuing the series. Tell yourselves it was worth it, that he was well-compensated, that it doesn't matter because you want videogame, whatever, but claiming he wanted to make them is factually incorrect.
Wow, this actually makes a lot of sense. Looking at it through this perspective actually helps bring a lot of closure.
More then closure, it actually says about our repeated cycle that everyone is repeating.... I mean this has opened the box to see escape that loop which people keep repeating something else that I'm not even talking about.... all k say is 2013 was better and mgs4 is just is recycled, yongyea has been recycling....
Do not get it twisted, Komjima most likely LOVES making Metal Gear games, even if he acts like he doesn't and the secret moral of every sequel is "please do not ask me to make a sequel, i will make you feel like shit". He knows how to feed the MEME hype machine. $$$
There something to be said about this when after MGS4 released and the fans were either pleased or already happy with 2 or 3 being the last one, he came out all of a sudden with both Peace Walker and Rising, and later MGSV. Like, you were free to move on and back you go to plan and develop more games?
My favorite part of MGS4 was playing MGS1
More on MGS V TOO Please!
Always the mgs2 and mgs4 fans thinking they're smarter than everyone else for simping over games with a mixed reception
MGS2 and 4 are rad as hell, sorry the entire series didn't just defoo to James Bond in the Jungle and Blaustein's hammy localization hackjob by way of nostalgia goggles.
Yeah MGS2 and 4 had mixed receptions by fans initially, that doesn't make it any less true that they're both games that people have disregarded, misinterpreted, and yet have had views on them softened, through exposure and further contextualisation afterwards. Secondaries that haven't been there from the beginning, love to pretend the franchises started and ended with MGS3.
And for that reason MGS4 is my favorite game of the Metal Gear Saga
The rapid aging of snake was also like a middle finger to Konami, like guess what, he’s dead, can’t recycle him anymore. I love how MGS4 ties everything together and lays the story to rest.
And yet they made Peace Walker, MGS 5, MGR and Survive. We dont talk about Survive though
Konami: sure ....... BUT SNAKE IN SMASH BROS
i really liked metal gear acid 1&2 .
ac!d was something fresh for the series
its what we all thought we wanted at the time, so we are all guilty in a *sense* but idc, i loved it then and i love it now, especially now!
the title is ironic in the regard that OP seems to have gone down a manic rabbithole of “i dont like old snake”
idk about this one..
This channel is like the most hilarious thing I ever discovered. The guy over analyzes the most mundane things and esoteric connections and praises them as if that was the plan since 1987, I refuse to believe this isn’t high effort trolling, almost artistic trolling!
I thought the subversion of giving the fans want they want was clear. At the time everyone wanted to play as MGS1 Snake again and then we ended up with Old Snake. People also wanted the big badass action hero story of MGS1 reprised and instead we got a story about putting down our guns in a world where war is both cool and routine.
Thank you for this, I've been attacked several times trying to make some of these points
I get what you're saying but MGS4 being a meta-commentary doesn't automatically make it a good game or a satisfying conclusion after so many years of build-up. If Kojima didn't want to make MGS games anymore he shouldn't left all his games on a cliffhanger, nor should he have stamped his name all over every title basically crediting himself as the sole driving force behind their success.
Exactly. Having a meta commentary theme doesn't excuse the retcons fan service, pacing issues and awkward presentation. The game isn't as terrible as people make it out to be but by the same rational it's not the misunderstood masterpiece. Eva shaming me as a player because first person shooter games were popular in 2008 isn't what I consider to be flaw erasing meta storytelling. People have good reason to criticize this game especially in comparison to other Metal Gear games.
@@habadasheryjones honestly I agree, but lets remember that kojima was forced to keep metal gear games out even when he wanted to end the series after mgs2. He left the story of 4 to the other writers but when he saw how terrible it was he had to come to fix it all. The story is like a parody of the metal gear saga and that is intentional 100%, but like you said, that don't make the game perfect; I don't think Kojima wanted that tbh since he knew people wouldn't be happy with ANY ending so that is why he had to kill almost everyone and making the only people alive parodies of themselves. It is a very smart move imho and this game makes the saga the best one ever made. I think it's sad that Kojima was forced almost 20 years to do the same games over and over till the point of making a parody fanservice game to end it all, and still that was good lol
But problem with this game is that majority of critique is just "i dont like this explanation so this must be retcon or asspull".
I don't know if I made a mistake or not but the story of MGS4 did actually kinda lost on me. I played the first game on PC back in the early 2000's and MGS2 a couple of years after that. I bought a PS3 in 2009 and got MGS1-2-3-4 but started to play MGS4 as it was the hot new stuff and went backwards from there for some reason. MGS4 and 3 were enjoyable but I kinda messed up some things by playing 4 before 3. It was a weird trip.
One of the trailer or teaser of MGS4 was all about "This is not FPS, it's MGS" or something like that. The video started with a group of soldiers in formation from the point of view of one of the soldiers. Snake appears and takes out the one whose point of view we're seeing the action.
I love the final fistfight scene. The mechanics are terrible but the trip down memory lane through the main themes from the previous titles has its purpose: it ultimately leads up to the poignant last leg of the brawl with Harry Gregson-Williams' "Old Snake" playing. You have two geriatrics beating the shit out of each other, being able to do so artificially through the syringe, with a terribly depressing song playing as you go through this tragedy. It's a sad moment for me, seeing how your favorite characters are now way past their shelf life struggling to keep up with the times.
I did not miss any point. This game was beyond awesome. My classic.
Every time you say "until next time Boss" I get an immense amount of goosebumps. I love your work man
I played 4 and loved it. It was always not just a game. It was a philosophical exploration. So when i go online years later and see people hating it, i was so confused. Glad to find this video.
I enjoyed MGS4 immensely back in 2009 and I think I still enjoy it now. In terms of gameplay, I never thought it was bad, except for Act 3. I was a child back then, and I loved that the game didn't punish me for killing all the red-named enemies in front of me. That was part of the entire point of the subtext. As I replayed the game as a teenager and as an adult going for non-lethal runs, the fact that I had still so much more to explore in terms of the material game (easter eggs, hidden mechanics and the like) AS WELL as it's philosophical subtext keeps making me wanting to rerun the game entirely. Like watching an old movie you've seen countless times, just to participate in it's cultural significance/contribution.
🐐 of Story Analysis on CZcams
None will top SuperBunnyHop
It's funny how the MGS "fandom" ( demanded more to consume, yet complained about the flavour of the new product.
> begged for more explanations and information, yet said it was stupid and too much when they got it.
> wanted conclusions, yet refused to accept them because it didn't fit THEIR narrative.
Enter MGSV. I genuinely wish Kojima would have stuck with the original ending of MGS4 and let the series die for good!
Great video, I've always been of the mindset that MGS4 was a great part of the series despite some shortcomings and it's very refreshing to finally see some likeminded opinions coming up in recent years. I love your analysis and thoughts of the different factors that play into the MGS4 powderkeg with a lot of things I never considered or realized myself! Proves that your arguments have a lot of thought and reasoning behind them.
I'm honestly very tired of most MGS4 "retrospectives" focussing entirely on the length of the cutscenes (which you can skip to your hearts content), the bloated story (which was never intended to be told that way in the first place) and the blatant fan-service (which, in my opinion, was well done for the most part and also feels like a well deserved "here you go but also fuck you!" from Kojima). Yet most neglect to acknowledge that Kojima games are always way more than the sum of their parts.
Well mgsv doesn't really change the ending of MGS 4, 4 is still the conclusion to the overall story. I get what you are saying though, I remember the fanbase had a collective stroke over MGS 2 and hated on a genuinely interesting and deep character for not being snake.
Real life is actually like this these days. Hideo Kojima saw the future
the only other game i can think of that pulls off the similar theme of " the hero has gotten old and the world has moved on.' might be yakuza 6.
Look I like you and your channel but "It sucked on purpose" is a horrible way to dismiss problems. Kojima is not in fact god. He can goof.
Plus making bad products on purpose still makes you a bad developer.
An actually skilled director and developer would know how to get across a point without making the product suffer for it.
That game was perfect though. It made my childhood. Play through after play through.
this was my first mgs game and honestly i loved it. as someone new to the world the game literally explains everything that’s going on who these people are why they are fighting. imagine someone handing you resident evil 3 or batman arkham knight and you never played any of the other games. how lost and confused you would be. how your view of those game may not be so good because you don’t understand what’s really going on..
well with me this game felt catered to me and could see why someone who’s played every single mg game ever made may hate all the flashbacks and all the over explaining but to me my brain was a sponge just taking it all in.
to me it’s the best mg game because it was not only my first experience but i’ve never had a game especially being that late into a series actually welcome me in and not expect me to know everything i moved along through each level learning more and more about this world and characters and all the crazy things that have happened from game to game. now compare that experience to playing mgsv talk about night and day difference. knowing the character i still felt detached and completely lost in the story.
i think mgs4 gets a bad rap for all the fan service but honestly it was a great idea for all the new people the game would bring to the franchise. if anything i wish more games welcomed in the amount of nostalgia this game enjoyed displaying in just about every single scene.
i can’t make you love this game but if you are watching this and you never played a metal gear game i strongly recommend mgs4 being the first you won’t be disappointed.
Is there a single military game that you like that isn't Metal Gear Solid?
I miss this beautiful game, I wish I could play it again.
Why can’t you?
@@DialloMoore503 It’s not on the PlayStation 4 except through PS Now (which blows) and I don’t have a PlayStation 3 anymore.
@@airborne_j4ck604
What happened to your PS3?
I bought my PS3 from a guy on Craigslist. I didn’t have that many games for it at first, but I recently got several games for off Amazon.
I have the machine, so I might as well use it.
@@DialloMoore503 I was updating it and then my house lost power in a thunderstorm. Completely fucked my system. It was a sad day
A little off topic but I finally got around to watching Guns of Navarone the other night. Great flick! The influences it had on other adventure films like Raiders were blatantly obvious. Thanks Jorin and keep up the good work
Great movie, have you seen force 10 from naverone? If not i recomend it as wel.
All the metal gear solid games are timeless and relevant.
For anyone into Twin Peaks, season 3 has a similar message
The fans don't understand the path\trajectory of evolution of MGS. They think in a static way. MGS4 is simply evolved, it still preserves some of the base characteristics of the old games. People don't understand this, they don't get the concept of change.
Idk what these MGS4 critics want. MGS4 went out with a bang. The whole game was soo epic. A great way to end the journey of Solid Snake.
It's too bad MGS4 will get written off by many people who would otherwise play it. It's an incredible game, thematically as well as gameplay-wise.
On top of what you said about the game’s acts moving back into the past glories of previous wars, they also seem to line up with the locations in the games in the series:
Middle East-Phantom Pain
Latin America-Peace Walker (+ Ground Zeroes, which is honestly more a continuation of PW than a prequel to PP in my opinion)
Eastern Europe-Snake Eater
Shadow Moses-MGS
Ocean Vessel/Structure-Sons of Liberty
Whether this is intentional or not I cannot say, but it is quite an interesting coincidence at the very least
Ironically, this game being bad is a meme. The majority of people wouldn’t come to that conclusion without being told to feel that way. Yeah there’s a lot of cutscenes, but nobody complains about that in the other games where the cutscenes are comparably long (and still get skipped by long term players regardless). MGS1 has like 24 guards in the entire game, ridiculous retcons, clunky controls even for the time, and half of it is shameless backtracking, but that gets swept under the rug because the MGS1 meme is that it’s sacred. MGS4 gets no such forgiveness for its flaws. MGS4 has great atmosphere, solid gameplay, some fantastic cinematics, and the most fully fleshed out dystopian military worldbuilding of any of the games. Old Snake is an absolutely classic character. Its meta commentary is just as deep, pervasive, subversive, astute as MGS2. Seriously, I challenge any MGS fan to go back and play through MGS4, skip all the cutscenes like you *know* you do every time you play Snake Eater, and see how you really like it.
People are sheep.
Skipping the Snake Eater cutscenes?!?! A greasy freebooter...
I couldn't disagree more, btw. I wasn't told by anyone to find the poorly paced dialogue excruciating, the recycled bosses underwhelming, and the weapon collection mechanic grinding. I can't recall a single standout moment of the stealth gameplay, it all felt directionless, in harsh contrast to the previous titles. It was far too easy to just run straight thru the storm of bullets in battlefields, I had to deliberately introduce self-imposed rules to even make those a challenge.
So... the thesis here is that MGS4 is lampshading itself? Nope, I don't buy it. I think you are reading too much into the homages and references made in the, at the time, "magnum opus" of a self-declared cinefile game director.
I really loved the rex vs ray battle.
when you dont reach the required age for retirement so you are forced to work.. this is what this game feels like.