What Are Electrical Grounds on My Boat?
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- čas přidán 23. 12. 2020
- We have a great question from Amel. He says, "I have seen a huge amount of misinformation regarding the electrical grounds on boats. They confuse the neutral with the negative and the grounding system. It would be great if you could explain who is who and when they can and can't be linked together. Thank you!"
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Yes please do a long vid on grounds :)
Duly noted!
Agreed! Still want the long version of why the little Honda generators are a bad idea too! I think it has something to do with grounding as well.
I AGREE! This would be a video that a lot of people would respond to.
I vote for the long video on grounding! I promise to watch all of it!!!
Noted!
I'm new to boat ownership and am tackling a project boat. I started with very little boat electrical knowledge. I'm finding such great basics on youtube and enjoying the "ride". Fascinating. Grounding info/principles seemed so complex to me when felt it probably shouldn't be. It's actually refreshing to hear it's complex for the longtime experts. Thanks.
As usual very informative and interesting! Thanks for all of the work you do to better educate members of the boating community!
We appreciate you watching our content - happy to know it's been valuable to you!
No messin' I'd love to see that 2 hour video on grounds!
I think it'd take me longer...including galvanic isolation.
What's so ironic is the wire most people think is the simpliest and "you don't really need it" is by leagues the most complicated.
I'd also love to see how galvanic isolators stand up to modern household noise on the PE.
For terminology simplicity, I refer to the P(rotective)E(arth) as the Earth as it is Planet referenced (or hull referenced in the micro planet that is a floating installation)
0Vdc as the negative.
The ground is when you connect the DC negative to a chassis or framework.
C(ircuit)P(rotective)C(onductor) is an earth connected to a chassis or framework.
Personal preference I much rather a Green Earth Bus and a Black/Yellow DC Ground bus linked. It's more straight-forward than throwing it all together.
Very nice, please make a long video about groundings
Noted
Excellent as always. TY I will be moving up in boat size soon. I am in WA. You will be my preferred electrical contractor.
Wow, thanks!
Fantastic response & helpful too … I’m still scared but appreciative … & thank you.
Jeff as always EXCELLENT material my friend. You are my GO TO guy!
Thanks Mike!
Mahalo from Maui in your grounding explanation
Glad to help
I definitely wouldn't be bored by a 2 (or 8 hour :p) video about grounds :)
In Europe it seems most boats don't have a tie between AC ground and DC -
Different pro's and cons to that and it ofcourse all depends on the system design.
Rabbit holes everywhere.
Thanks Koffi for sharing.
That's because galvanic currents*. The boat gonna get corrosion. It eats the least noble metal (sry if the terms are wrong)
thanks, interesting information..
You're welcome
Definitely think Jeff should bring this subject down to earth and give us a good grounding in groundings. I'm sure he can have this subject ground down into simple terms with his earthly knowledge.
Thanks for the inspiration, we have a grounds video on our horizon.
This is the best ever seen about grounds on a boat
Hey! Is it the same thing with at steel hull? Should you have common ground connected to the hull?
Hey, i am installing solar panels on my steel sailing yacht. I noticed that on the panels there is a ground/earth marking. All solar panel installations, on steel sailing boat, i watched never mentioned hooking up the panels with a ground wire.
Do i need to attach the solar panel to ground of the ship?
Like to hear from you.
WKR Herman.
Thanks. So i recently added a blue sea ELCI at my Charles transformer secondary. I also added a neutral to ground bond at this now, “first major disconnect”. Previously neutral was not bonded at the transformer.
Shore power works great. I recently got my Northern lights 16kw generator serviced and running again.
Heres the issue. When I switch over to gen set power at my main panel (mid ship). The gen set breaker trips immediately. However, if I manually open the ELCI at the transformer secondary first, then no trip and everything works fine off the gen set. Trying to figure this out. Any suggestions? Thanks
I just have an out board and starter batt.
I want a lighter adapter installed on console. Where do I ground the lighter adapter?
Can i connect my multiplus II chassis grounding to grounding bolt of lynx distributor? And then ground from ditributor to negative DC?
I have a woven ground wire that has disconnected itself from the inside of the hull coming from my mast.
Can I reconnect with some kind of metallic adhesive or would it have to be welded by a welder ?
Hi, could you tell me how a M.E.N works on a boat (house boat)if you have Steel pontoons and all wiring does not get grounded to the pontoons or motor as the Electrolysis would corrode the metal components ? Thank you Dave Australia
Would it be best to have the engine as the ground collector for DC and AC grounds?
Question- recently purchased a VHS Radio for my fishing boat. It has a ground terminal on the back and was not clear where and how to connect this to my boat. The mfr. tech support sed to connect it to a DC (black wire) connection. I Don’t have a clue and don’t want to damage my radio.
Link to the 2-hour ground video you mentioned?
so, a AC green ground wire can be connected to the Negatve DC busbar???
Jeff I was checking out the conceptual diagrams on your boat after watching the video and noticed you don’t have a grounding/bonding diagram
Thanks Domenick, good suggestion, we'll make one.
I have been chasing a ground gremlin and your videos help but I still can't find the issue.
Hi Jeff, great video as always.
I support the comments bellow and would love to have a longer video on grounds.
I have a dual battery switch with two battery banks (engine and house) but have trouble to understand the connection they must have with the engine...how should it connect with the starter and the alternator?
I hope you can help we find everything on the net and I trust your judgement.
Hi Romain, both the house and engine battery DC negatives need to be connected together. In turn, the engine block negative needs to be connected to the engine battery, effectively making both engine and house battery grounded.
Another vote for a looong piece on grounds.
House battery is connected to a large bus bar and all other grounds connect there but for the start battery. The common connects to the engine via 3 foot cable. The start to the engine by a 3 foot cable. Should I ground the start to the common bus with a 6 foot cable or leave it the two ground connections to the engine. Have a main 1 / 2 both off set up.
Yep do a long in-depth video on grounds.
Good suggestion.
Advise please I have earth wires from my fuel filler, water filler waist outlet etc they all link back to a buzz bar .does it then have to have a wire connecting it to the battery same as the rest of the equipment??
Regards
Sounds like you are describing a grounding bus. Eventually all grounds should be connected together, including DC, AC, bonding, etc...
Yeah. “Grounds for dummies” vid, please!
Please do a grounds video. Cathode, anode, and magnesium use on boat metals would a plus
Duly noted.
Do y’all have a comprehensive course to train marine mechanics in the field? I’d be super interested in a diagnosis master class.
So if my AC 120 volt feed comes into my boat from shore power with a hot, neutral and ground. I can assume the neutral is grounded at the dock and Not ground it again in the boat? OR, should I tie the neutral to the common grounding point in the boat too?
In North America, the neutral and the ground should only ever be tied at the source of power. You should not connect neutral to ground on a boat. When marine inverters inverter, they do a a neutral to ground tie, but otherwise the neutral and ground are separated.
Does the negative bus bar need to be grounded or bonded to the metal on the boat (mine is fiberglass, so it will be hard to find a spot), or is the fact that it is connected to both negative batteries terminals enough to create an acceptable ground?
In most cases, the negative bus is connected to the starter / engine block, in turn the engine is connected to ground via the transmission, coupler, and propeller shaft. Some boats without this setup, will use a ground plate to provide ground to their DC negative distribution.
So how do you chase a bad ground? I have house and engine batteries on a different circuit.
Lights flicker when I use either.
Also in a bank of 4 house batteries in series the middle 2 drain while the outside stay at 6v
Then the inverter shuts down.
I wish I was smarter
The neutral and the ground must be tied together whenever the system is separately derived (no direct electrical contact between two sequential points - i.e. transformers, electronics - VDC systems, converters, etc.). A lightning protection system must be electrically isolated from the boat all the way down to the external (underwater) main ground bus (otherwise, the difference in potential that happens during a lighting strike will create an arch inside any electronics that make contact between ground and boat, even if turned off).
I have found that lighting will go where ever it can, it jumps throught the air with ease. grounding systems in buildings use braided cables and put it in pvc conduit to prevent it jumping.
This makes sense to me - to have everything concerning a lightning ground separate from the rest of the grounding system until it is outside of the boat. Do you have any references to share on this?
@@anthonymillevolte3470 National Electric Code - Grounding. The best method of mitigation is by using electronic surge protection device.
@@josidasilva5515 Thank you. Are these standard consumer devices, or something that goes between the ground and the neutral bonding in the boat? During multiple lightning strikes near my house, we saw arcs shooting out of the sockets repeatedly - shutting off the main breaker didn't help, since it came up through the ground side. I know people who've been struck (they aren't the same afterward) and my cousin's boat nearly sunk after having its hull peppered with holes. So, lightning rattles me a bit when it comes close...
hey Jeff, you can't just tease us with a 2 hour video, we want it all
I'm not sure how to ask this question without confusing the topic further. But if I connect my grounding system to the engine block with the DC negative wire is attached and those grounding wires run back to say the metal casing of an inverter don't I create a situation where if I accidentally touch a positive wire to that case I get a short and possibly sparks?
Did you ever get this question answered?
I was a sparky on board ship. Ships ground was thru the haul into the sea back to earth. Now a boat would be thru the motor. There are many grounds as mentioned electronic equipment for one, the common may be polarize in order to operate properly. I know it's not a ground, mechanical or electrical. In laundry washing machines a Wascomat older machine would have alternating common thru out the machine crazy how would like to trouble shoot that LOL. I know it's a common & not a ground too. A cars ground is a floating ground not going back to earth thru rubber tires that's why it's one of the best places to be in a during a storm & not a boat etc... I had my runnings trying to understand grounds too like Jeff said. I'm sure one could have a Doctorates in Electrical Engineering & could run into a ground situation :)
For we know its earth & electricity sometimes goes where it wants & is hard to understand!...
If we could figuring out where lightening is going striking the ground that sure would be a wonder, maybe Tesla could ?
Thanks for sharing Martin, appreciate your insight as a sparky.
Are you saying that on an outboard equipped boat there is no need for bonding to a hull ground as the outboard has a negative cable attached to the starter and charging system, thus the aluminum body of the motor which is usually painted, acts as a ground to the water? One would still have to connect the thru hulls to that. I'm thinking maybe you meant inboard shift drive boats where the shaft is not painted or coated and somehow has a ground applied to it thru the cutlass bearings. I bought a used boat. It has a bonding ground plate. Nothing is hooked to it. Should I connect the bronze thruhull to it somehow (seacock is mylar) and the thru hull is threaded into it. Boat is trailered. I don't think I have an RF ground to the VHF radio or FM radio, just the power wires, pos and neg. As you can tell I'm trying to put two and two together to grasp the picture of marine bonding and grounding specifics and peculiars.
@@hoobeydoobey1267 Electricity always needs a route back to its source. You cannot keep it from returning to where it was generated. That is 100% of the entire principal. The confusion comes in when people start calling things "earth" and "ground."
All you are doing, is creating a way back to the source of power.
In AC, the "ground" as it is called, is a safety feature. If there is a break in the circuit and it cannot get back to the source (NOT the earth, the power plant that generated the electricity), the electricity will follow the next easiest way to get back to the power plant. We create the "ground" system to allow the electricity a way back to the power plant, via the natural conductivity of the earth (but it is not going to the earth, it is going to the power plant via the earth).
If you did not have a ground wire in your house, and there was a fault, the electricity would be forced to the next easiest way back to the power plant via the ground (literally because the power plant has huge copper rods driven into the earth to complete the circuit, the same way you ahve a copper rod drilled into the earth outside your house), and that easiest path back to ground might be through a persons body.
So with that concept, a ground in a boat has nothign to do with the earth or dirt or anything like that.
The power is trying to get back to the source, aka the battery, or the generator, etc. Just like a vehicle, there is no need for the electricity to ever go back to ground, there is no where for it to go once it gets there, it wouldnt want to go there.
So in DC, the ground is just a way to bring everythign back to the battery and be sure that everythign is connected.
Bonding is much more complicated but much simpler on most boats because you are removing the earth and our man made conduits to it from the equation.
Lightening protection is the only system that actually involves the earth from the boat (because power is trying to return to its source, which in this case, actually is the earth). It is separate from your electrical system and gives a huge beefy way, the path of least resistance, from the top of your mast to the ocean, bypassing your electrical system.
A very good basic description of the common misconception most people have of what is a ‘ground’ and what its actual purpose is!
So are you saying that where there is no grounding plate on a boat then an Inverter casing earth wire should be connected directly to the DC Negative Buss Bar????? There is no external grounding plate on my Jeanneau DS41 nor can I see any earthing wires connected to either the engine block or saildrive
Hi Jeff. I have a question i cant seem to find any information on. I have a sailboat that recently had an issue with stray current which ate a hole in a through hull. She is pulled out of the water now, but in going through the wiring and tracking down the stray current (fixed) i discovered that there is still a 200mV potential between the negative battery cable and the bonding wire - with battery completely removed. Is this just residual galvanic potential due to maybe some dampness between some metals, or is there something i should be worried about before putting her back into the water. I just cant think of where this may be coming from, except maybe the fuel transducers (fuel tanks bonded). But even pulling them reveals no change. Trying to find an expert opinion before scheduling a relaunch. No experts at the marina as is in Mexico, and lots of opinions there....
the bonding bus should be directly connected to the battery neg bus (as should the AC green ground) so you should have 0v. It sounds like your bonding system might be isolated from DC neg. do you have an ohms reading between the bonding system and DC neg?
@@PacificYachtSystems Well, that is where it gets a little weird. There is continuity between the negative terminal and the bonding wire. At the negative terminal, with battery connected, I have 0 volts, all the way through to the negative bus bar. However, when i check the voltage between the connected negative terminal and the bonding wire, i see 0.2 volts on the VM. Doing a bi-section type disconnection of the bonding wire connections, i find a 0.2v potential showing up where the bonding wire is connected to the first fuel tank i encounter inline. I disconnect the fuel tank and notice that i have 0.2v showing up on the fuel tank, and carried through the fuel lines - thus showing up on the bonding wire when connected. The 0.2 volts remains present even when i completely remove the batteries.
The user manuals for some of the new electronics I am getting in the mail seem to think their products deserve more than a grounded negative bus bar. Do electronics sensitive to noise in the RF benefit from a path that takes them further down the chain, closer to the actual source of grounding? From what I am reading, it seems that I really should have an RF neutral bus bar closer to the bottom of the boat. And what about lighting grounding? Someone has suggested in these comments that the lightning ground path should be connected on the outside of the boat, which makes a hell of a lot of sense to me - I prefer all of that as much of that excitement to remain on the Faraday cage that my boat is willing to be. I really don't want to inadvertently invite lightning into my boat because it is more convenient to bond things that way. And that's only the DC side! I'd love to hear a discussion on these topics with you, a physicist, EE expert, and (of course) Nigel Calder! My sense is that there might not be a consensus on all of these issues - and I'd be OK with that...
If the manual specifies a RF grd, then strongly suggest you do too.
Unfortunately have limited experience with lightening protection system.
Hi Jeff. I'm having new aluminum fuel tanks installed on the boat. There previously were connected to the bonding ground from the builder. The guy installing the new tanks want to connect them directly to my DC ground in the console with my electronics. Which method is the best way to install them?
Hi Keith, that's a hard question to answer right or wrong. Most boats don't have a dedicated common ground and instead use the DC negative as the common ground. Assuming your DC negative is properly connected to ground, then you can connect your fuel tank to DC negative.
@@PacificYachtSystems What do you mean in saying "your DC negative is properly connected to ground"? DC negative is the negative battery post, in most instances. And "ground" is a buss bar attached to that battery post? "Properly connected" means with a conductor capable of handling the battery current? Just trying to get my mind wrapped around all this. Thanks.
I am putting in a new fuel tank . I asked the tank builder who said the ground should go to the battery negative. Instead of all these grounds / bonds going to the battery shouldn’t a ground bar be brought to an area then all the grounds bonds be tied to that bar?
please a video on grounds I would love to see it.
Working on it.
@@PacificYachtSystems Thank you
Great
Thanks Pepe.
My boat won’t start up I have the positive and negative cable hooked up to my battery and the ignition wired I’m missing a wire and not sure where
Make sure you have 12 Volt at the starter solenoid. Also make sure your ignition key is powered by 12 VDC and confirm that your panel is energized. When starting your engine, you should hear a click from the solenoid, even if the engine isn't turning over.
I don't know how the AC ground and DC ground would be tied in together. Can't be directly could it?
Yes Good question. My Blue Seas instructions says to join the two, but I hear a lot of discussion contrary. Would like to hear something difiniitve
@@mrwrapper I would always choose to follow manufacturers instructions over internet talk
how about DC ground/-/black wire distribution trough a steel hull? like how it is done in our cars? is there somethin wrong with that?
Don't wire it like a car and use the hull for ANY return path to your batteries, there should be 1 point only from your DC neg distribution to the hull, Same with AC protective earths, they go back to the AC earth bar only, then link the AC and DC distribution.
@@nicholaskeur why exactly? What is wrong with wiring it like a car
You do not want any current running through the hull, it creates corrosion problems,
You dont want to be using your hull to carry the current by default. You will rust out.
@@RealHankShill please explain why, a lot of people are claiming this but no one can explain..
Am I understanding correctly that for boats without an AC system the ground for the DC is just the negative/common side?
For DC and AC system, being grounded means having a connection to the water, generally achieved through the engine block -> transmission -> propeller shaft.
If being grounded means a connection to the water via motor, propshaft or similar, what do you do if you don’t have a motor, and how crucial is it?
@@mikemcdougall193 If you don't have a motor, you likely don't have a prop shaft and prop, meaning no current-carrying metal contact with the water. I'd imagine the best bet in that scenario is to create a through-hull port with a heavy copper rod protruding a little into the water to which you can connect your common ground inside.
@@PacificYachtSystems My fiberglass catamaran has two motors in the water, both acting as grounds. I see some cats having Dynaplates installed. How are those used as ground? And, how are they connected to the DC ground buss?
Ground is on the engine grounding terminal or bus, if boat without engine ... there is no electrical ground.
I could watch that video.
I gotta do it.
Yes please a one line and wire size for bond.
I have a ground buss behind dc panel.this refed off lip04. At this location is the old negative from last house battery should i tie this old house negative to the ground bar and connect the other end to the start battery negative ?
Im concerned with return path as start battery closer to negative buss.
Thank you
Omg now I’m very much confused that just made the water very murky for sure. Not I just need to bring my boat to you
That's not good, what's your question?
:). Haha. Bonded. How can you ground yourself in the damn water. Lololol. I totally get it now. Thanks bro!
Glad to help Dustin.
it is sooooooooooo freaking complicated, I still haven't figured it out.
It's grounds, it's suppose to be hard.
@@PacificYachtSystems I know that
Still dont understand shit .. sorry :(
Have one light with ground, just grounded it to the housing of the lamp. But i have a set of windshield wiper that also needs ground.. where to put it? Same ground as the lamp? Or can i ground it in its own housing aswell?
12v DC system - Norway
Thanks for help!
A DC circuit is generally made of a positive and negative circuit. The negative circuit, is connected back to a battery, and in turn most boats have the battery negative grounded by the engine block. Some DC items want to also connect to ground. In that case you need to run a seperate circuit to the battery negative (which is effectively your DC ground).
Given this, how do you properly wire an alternator that’s grounded to the engine block via its case / mount so that its output is picked up correctly by your battery monitor? Won’t the chassis grounding throw off the monitor’s ability to read the alternator’s output even if you run the alternator’s ground wire to the load side of the monitor shunt? Thanks!
Jeff is incorrect and confused
Ground does not exist out on the water, the engine has a grounded connection or bus, negative from battery and all other electrical reference to ground connections are at that point , simple
Just watch Mr Lopez, simple.
poor video. Did not answer the question asked
Hi MT, thanks for your candid feedback.
Common grounds on boats are AC, DC, Bonding, and RF.
@@PacificYachtSystems Am known for calling a spade a spade! Why didnt you say that in the video? By the way lightning ground should be separate from others or you will burn out every system on your vessel.
No info on this video, only babble
This guy only do is talk.
Thanks for the feedback Orlando.