Honda Element Stalling When Cold Part 1
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- čas přidán 2. 08. 2024
- Follow along as I struggle with this 2005 Honda Element and ultimately I don't know what's wrong with it...
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Exhaust valve clearance is a well known problem for cold start misfire on the 2.4 K. Easy enough the check valve clearance, and is recommended maintenance at 120,000.
Looked like 202,000 miles on this example
Wouldn't a valve anomaly have showed up on the running comp wave form?
Came here to suggest this as a possibility
My suggestion as well, get the feeler gauges out!
The cams wear down as well as the metallurgy was bad for some eras of Honda 2.4.
Use Honda map voltage pid for valve adjustment recommendations. 0.7v good. Anything above 0.7v is suspect. Yours is at 1.38V
You can also see the valve overlap and clearance using a pulse sensor on your pico. #4 intake pulse pattern indicates tight valves (39 minute mark). The signature “M” is missing on pattern.
Brandon Steckler actually used this exact engine as an example in his book to diagnose tight valves using a pulse sensor on the intake.
I was waiting for this video ever since you mentioned it on S. Tippins podcast. I don't have any ideas besides maybe a Valve adjustment because of the missing M in the exaust waveform. I find I get a nicer exuast capture using a hose that Brandon from Jarhead diagnostics makes. It has springs that keep it centered in the middle of the tail pipe and absorb the shaking, I use that with his pulse sensors. Hope you get it figured out, looking forward to part 2!
Thanks for the detailed ride you've brought us on. This reminds me and shows what testing is all about. I have a saying here at the shop, most of the crazy involved testing shows you what it's not...meaning you have confirmed what works well and you're still digging to find the flaw. I've got plenty of experience on this Honda K platform. Few things to note, which I know you are aware of...this has to be something that affects all cylinders/ whole engine....I've had complete cylinders be down and still have no stalling issues like this, if they did stall from mechanical failure it would be consistent in my experience, but again the failed cylinder mechanical issue would be very pronounced. The IAC is very common on this to not "act right" and obviously dictates idle. I have also had a primary O2 do something very similar as yours, I was very surprised how much it affected it mechanically. meaning causing it to stall. I know you showed the original one at the end but that's where my mind was going so not sure. The other thing that can be farfetched is make sure the correct engine is installed, I've seen people install different variations that don't belong but bolt in all do to price. As far as the pressure testing, the exhaust trace is more usable during cold cranking not so much during idle, that is just used for misfire detection (exhaust idle monitoring) The same for the intake. cold craning capture gives you a better idea of the mechanical state and health of the engine, running captures sometimes don't even show pulls but it looks like yours did.
Overall, again thanks for the detailed testing ride and main thing I would say is to hopefully find the key factor that is affecting the whole engine. looking forward to part 2
I agree with people suggesting tight exhaust valves. Maybe you could do a leakdown test on the engine when it's cold. Any leakage out the tailpipe would indicate tight valves. Used to be very common on CRV's in the early 2000's.
I agree with checking valve clearance. Simple & quick , one of the #1 causes of rough/poor running Hondas . Valves don’t have to be perfect, but they do have to be all the same. T-body also has to be spotless or it really screws with map fueling at idle & warmup
I think I would agree with the valve adjustment issue. Seems like I had a V6 accord setting rich codes. If I’m not mistaken I think the MAP should be around 0.9V at hot idle and EGR position at 1.2V. It looked like you were at 1.3-1.4V on MAP. Hope this helps and keep up the great work!
I'd check valve clearance. I had a case where the valve clearances were too tight on a CRV and it caused an actual rich condition, especially at higher rpms.
As someone else stated here, I've had similar issues with Honda's of that vintage related to valve clearance issues. I had an Accord that the valves had been adjusted to the wrong specs, and some of the fuel vapor was blowing by the valves, causing the O2 readings to be very rich, which caused the ECM to keep leaning it out more and more, to the point where it would stall out. Once it warmed up it would pretty much run right, but the fuel trims were showing very rich. I struggled with that one for a lot longer than I'd like to admit. After running a battery of tests on it, I said what the heck, let me check the valve clearances, and that fixed it.
This ^^
Best explanation I've seen about this problem.
I second the tight valve. Pull the valve cover and set each valve clearance with a feeler gauge. I know it looks fuel related but this cold stalling is a classic symptom. They get tight around this mileage. Bet you have to loosen most of them.
I agree with Honda valve clearance issues but if it's too tight then as the engine heated up you're symptoms should almost get worse correct? They would tighten up even more with heat. Just my 2c. I know on a typical motocross bike with tight valves they won't even hardly start when hot. I can see an intermittent valve sealing issue but tight valve for a misfire that goes away once it's hot doesn't seem likely to me.
@@halvorsonmx Only seen this once on an element and mine was worse than Jake's. As soon as you can to a stop it would stall, idled awful, and ecm was pulling max fuel out. The fix video is out. The valve adjustment did stop the stalling.
thanks for the reply. Now I know to keep that in mind!@@TheShop10
That was a smorgasbord of learning ! Thanks so much for sharing your time and knowledge with us and feeding our hunger !! Extraordinary detail ! The best thing is the way you explain things - it’s super good 👍🏼 !!
Glad you enjoyed it! Cause I didn’t 😂 lol
The map sensor is a key input for fuel control on Hondas. Tight valves will cause low engine efficiency/vaccum. Typically on a good engine map voltage is .85v to .95v at operating temperature. Anything above 1 volt, the PCM interprets has the engine having a load and adds fuel excessively.
Check your engine vacuum with a manual gauge. I suspect you will
Find it at 15”-16”.
I did and it matches live data.
Very interesting case, Jake! If it's not the spark, or the injector, or compression, it could be odd behavior of a valve, but your test said otherwise. Very curious to see Part 2
i have never liked fuel pressure on analog gauges, its like ac gauges, but with a micron gauge you see the real deal on ac. wished they would make a better fine measurement gauge for fuel. i ve watched when bench testing injectors over time and that volume test really exposes injector issues .maybe one day the tool manufacturer will make one for us. could you use the pressure transducer on the fuel rail and watch it as you energized the injector, just a thought
Hello sir .
Thank you again for a great video .
Finally I’m happy cuz I’m like you this time .
No matter how many times I watched mister berny Thompson or mister Brandon stickler I still don get any of the waveform whethe intake or exhaust.
The compresión a little bit 😂
For rich condition.. It may be cause of stuck open purge valve.. And ecu not throwing code for it
Hi jake,I'm from over the pond in England,definitely check your valve clearances but check the cold start sensor.i think if it was valve clearance it would play up more when it got hot.
ALIGN your exhaust pocket and not your TDC Compression, different compressions will happen at different times and even advanced for an actual compression leak showing the lower compression is early which is not at true TDC, simply compression peters out early. EXH Pocket will be in actual timing chain/belt time vs the crank at the point where the valve opens if you do not expect a valve issue. As you know a compression leak will also show a vacuum in the exhaust pocket but the actual valve timing should be the same location as the EXH valve opens. Of course there are valve adjustment/wear issues that can affect very small visual alignments. I see that your vacuum transducer is the type of waveform that I like and I can see at the top of the curve shows the exhaust valves are all slightly out of adjustment with the two little humps on top or the single little divot, the hump on the left (EXH) ought to be slightly higher than the hump on the right (INT but not the same cylinder as the EXH signature). These show valve overlap and valve minute timing adjustment/wear. Since you are a fan of Bernie, you should also follow his rule of a shorter and stiff hose as a longer hose will allow buffering of the actual waveform. You can see a repeating pattern in every 4th vacuum hump there is a pronounced point on top, this is a valve adjustment/wear/minute timing and that point is higher than the other.
RICH BIAS, either the AFR and HO2S are in the wrong holes if possible, or the connectors are backward if possible or the AFR is skewed. I did not like your injector buzzer tool as I did not think it buzzed long enough. Thanks for all the great case studies.
Your process showed me everything i wanted to see. Map, compression and pulse sensor. Maybe would of did a full pull at wot. Ill have to remember the overlays feature for pico, im still learning, so that helps alot.
Yea, I'm still a beginner with Zero pico skills!
😢 I guess we can still learn up together
wow tricky one indeed as mentioned here i would definitely check vale clearances for tge cold strat issue it don’t cost much and it rules them out . hard to tell because mics pick up every thing but that sure had a rattle but sound . not having hand on i a hard call but it really does seem to have an over fuel issue but that is only going buy the trim data and hegos. tell you man you get some real doozies that’s for sure brother 🤪🤪🤪
At first I was thinking a sticky injector but the comment below about adjusting the valves sounds like this guy knows Honda pretty well. Good luck . There should be enough ideas to go at this thing with a different perspective and you’ll get it and learn something new
Good luck man
I haven’t seen part 2 but looks like fuel contaminated oil from the misfire causing rich condition. I look forward to seeing the fix!
Check engine oil. If smells like gas, change it and reset the fuel trims.
I had a fuel pressure regulator blown diagram pulling fuel thru vacuum hose on a Nissan no codes ran rich and stalled a lot
If the diaphram was blown, it will not hold fuel pressure after powering off the pump, and in the video you see it holds, more than once.
personally, i prefer to troubleshoot a/f with current. Negative current means cutting fuel, zero current = lambda of 1, positive current adds fuel. You can confirm with air fuel ratio pid as shown at 9:44 of the video.
Easy way to rule out coils or fuel injectors.....swap places. If misfire moves, then it's obvious, If misfire stays, then it severely narrows down the problem. I've also recently seen a video about adjusting the valves.
Empty Amazon boxes come in handy. I use them as toy houses for my birds (the larger birds love shredding them).
Regarding your exhaust wave pulses: I wonder if they’d look “cleaner” with the muffler removed (due to the chambered muffler deflecting pulses).
Nice round so far, my self to confirm if the valve adjustment is acusing and issues, my first step is check the map voltaje at idle should be below .9v on good engine at idle at sea level , with vacuum gauge 20 to 21 inhg , if something points there to valve adjustment, next test is delta sensor on exhaust and on intake I like the absolute pressure sensor , i see you use the sensor they looks weird particularly exhaust
Good video and a tough one. I am leaning towards a leaking EGR Valve from carbon buildup. Valve adjustment would not hurt and a look at possible coolant weeping in cylinder 4.
Sound idea...I too thought of that.
However, I believe the EGR function is performed by valve overlap on this engine. 😪
Spoiler alert!
Having watched part 2, I came back here to see if Ivan was in the comment section...
...didn't see him.
Some K-series engines had an EGR valve. The others used valve overlap for EGR.
I'd also try and block off the PCV valve.
Good luck Jake!😉👍
Check fuel injectors, I did a 19 honda fit. It would have random misfires. Long story short, I sent them out to be checked and there was only 1 good injector, 2 of them were flowing to much and 1 was hardly flowing anything. Never mind, I didn't watch all of the video before I commented.
First I would check if it has an 02 sensor or Air fuel ratio sensor in the upstream position ( parts catalogs shows both for that application ) the scanner information is showing it to be an AF sensor . then if it is plugged into the right connection I just did an 05 Element that the Cat and sensors were changed and the connectors were backwards ( they will plug into each other ) I believe Bernie Thompson said that if the valves were tight or burnt it would show up in the in cylinder wave form pattern in the exhaust pocket as a little glitch/bump . I seem to recall Ivan had a case study with the same situation not long ago...Thanks Jake at PHAD
Hi Jake, very common on this MAP engines and EGR systems. Most likely you have either an air leak or a stuk EGR valve.
Thanks for the video,I think the head cylinder gasket or the head cylinder itself making this issue.
Jake. I love the fact that your able to put it out there when a vehicle is kicking your arse. From what I can see is that you may be getting a false rich issue. Given that it is a speed density issue the only sensors that affect your fueling are your wide bands and yojr map sensor. Given this I would force the engine into a default mode by unplugging the maf with the engine and ignition off and see if you have the same issue. If not, do the same with your oxygen sensors and try again. One otber thing, What is your engine temp sensor telling you. Good luck.
Thank you for the waves forme I like to le tar more mister jake.
I had one of these K series that was so full of sludge and baked on carbon it used to plug the spool valve (backof head) up with shit and stall and idle rough
A possible explanation may be an intermittent leaking injector.
Rich when cold could be residual fuel and would explain the strange cadence which seemed similar to mechanical resistance ie fuel hydro lock.
Wouldn’t be the first time a failed component passed a test.
I bought that injector pulse tester from your Amazon store. I had been wanting to get one for a while now. I modified the ends as well but put some connectors on the end so that I could use the adapters in my AES Wave connector kit.
Oh that’s a good idea!
Hello
Hello
I've had this exact symptoms on quite a few different type vehicles most the time it turned out to be poor fuel or a small amount of diesel or something in the fuel that caused it not to ignite real well cold.
Looks like you have the problem fixed that's great.
Cold start rough run and rich could be a valve clearance issue not sure if these have hydraulic tappets/lifters but on BMWs with m54s ive had this issue where lifters get scored in the lifter tower bores
I would start two places. I have seen speed density engine do this you have a vacuum line going to the MAP that is collapsing under vacuum. I have also seen a leak EGR valve cause this. Think Vacuum Leak. You have to remember that in a MAF engine vacuum leaks will always cause a lean condition. On a MAP car it will do the opposite when you are at idle or low rpm and it will go away under WOT because the leak becomes insignificant compared to the throttle position. A leaking EGR would make sense, that the leak goes away as warms up. I have a Quad 4 once that had a cracked piston ring and was causing this as well, but your compression looks good.
If the valve adjustment is not the problem, I would put a camera in cyl 4 when cold in the morning to look for coolant contamination. At 200k, it's a possibility.
I just watched 2 videos concerning that same problem leaking water in cylinder causing cold misfire then after warmup it went away no problem it’s passed the compression and leak down text cold but warmed up it failed the leak down and the problem was found. Blown head gasket
With the rusty injector, this does make sense at this mileage.
@@ktcarroll4723It's worth noting when using the head gasket dye rev up the engine while you're testing. Sometimes you won't catch a bad head gasket at idle
I had an aftermarket temp sensor, out of calibration on as S10 do the same thing.
Check Tps sensor on kseries they are known for stalling when there’s vibration there some aftermarket sensor like acuity the build a sensor it won’t stall when the engine vibrate hope it helps it happens to me on my civic same problem
I recently had a vehicle which had fuel trims all over the map. Some days it would idle rough when cold. Would set some nonsensical codes, especially under very light throttle while driving. If you drove it hard, no problems. Problem ended up being a slightly bent catalytic converter, upstream exhaust flange wasn't sealing properly (curb incident?). Might be worth corking the exhaust, pressurizing it, and spraying soapy water on everything from the head to the downstream side of the cat.
For the cold stalling issue, I would scope cam, ckp, ign and inj signals for the first run. For the 2nd run I would scope ecm's all ecm's powers and grounds and I look closely what do I miss when the stall happens. As for the rich condition, I suspect a faulty purge. All injectors look fine.
Nothing drops out when it stalls
Pull the injectors and bench test them, check spray patterns. Clean throttle body. Perform idle relearn, hope that helps❤
Haven't watched the entire video. But maybe a good idea would be to do the intake and exhaust pulse tests when the engine is cold. A lot of things change in terms of volumetric efficiency when the engine warms up.
I spent a week on a lean condition on a toyota corolla 4cyl. Running every test i could i since i did not knew the injector spray/amount..i replace them, problem solved..14 ford mustang rich condition.. Pcm here it goes..not wrong diag.. fuel injectors solve the issue..one thing that i learned either lean or rich as soon as i start the engine, the oxygen sensor signal started to move towards the issue..
Interesting. Well maybe not after a few months of it being around.
I don't have an in cylinder transducer - I'm guessing if there was a lack of exhaust valve clearance you would have seen that on the scope?
I've seen where fuel washes passed the rings and then it's in your oil-- and it will suck fumes through the PCV and give a rich condition. Also, it can suck fumes through the purge valve from the tank if it's not sealing correctly.. Number 4 injector could be dripping fuel, yet still spraying the correct amount (but I would think that would have shown up in your test). But you did test the injectors fairly quickly and didn't really give them a chance to bleed down before your spray test. maybe your fuel regulator is a bit stuck and it's not bleeding back into the tank correctly and it's causing the fuel pressure to be TOO high and spray too much fuel? I can't think of any other way it's getting extra fuel than those.
The ignition coil firing line for cylinder #4 looks to be fixed. The other cylinders show the firing line rising and falling. This indicates the spark is not being subjected to the turbulence of the combustion chamber.
I've seen a defective (leaking ) brake booster cause these fuel trim issues. Easy check just clamp the hose if fuel trims go to normal replace booster. Hope it helps
🤔
Wouldn't this make it run lean?🤷🏾♂️
Ask Ivan!
I'm curious on that map reading....
I did ask Ivan lol
I wonder if after checking valve clearance if swapping injector 4 would at least see if misfire moved ?
Every 4th intake pulse had a sharp peak on the scope capture, the others had a M at the peak. I don't know if this helps.
Hey bro believe it or not I saw this same issue on scanner Danner premium where Paul and his brother were working on a Toyota Sienna that they noticed that the upstream sensor and the rear sensor were not agreeing with each other.And it ended up being the rear o2 they replaced it and the problem was gone.
Check valve adjustment and pcv valve, it may be stuck open those engines are know for big blow by
Also make sure airflow meter is no afm part
Grasias
The last time I seen this problem it turns out to be the computer. It would only do this cold start. A easy way to check is spray the computer with cold air. And if the computer is cold it will show up. It might be a good way to check. It is a very hard problem to fix. And the computer control's the fuel trim,s ...
Crank trigger had same problem with a dodge I had
Running exhaust pulses are very difficult (almost impossible to read imo) and I only use them to identify a misfiring cylinder. Cranking exhaust pulses are more defined and can display relative valve lash
I’ll try some cranking next time!
After watching Ivan for so long, I've been convinced there's nothing that can happen inside a cylinder that can't be seen with the scope. I don't know what I'd be looking at without some guidance and known good samples. @@autodiagyt
Would like to get a 5 gas analyzer with lambda like the ats analyzer for cases like this. Could see if it’s really reading close to a lambda of 1 out of the exhaust like the scanner says just to rule out a false rich or lean condition.
Yeah maybe one of these days I can afford one lol
fresh fuel would be my guest and valve clearance
Good video Jake. Saturated vapor canister or fuel in engine oil?
Makes me wonder if it's bad fuel somehow. Possibly someone put some diesel or 85 ethanol in it, and it's spraying the correct "volume" that it should-- but the octane being so wrong is throwing off the 02 sensors. I'm not exactly sure of the effects of these fuels though... Also, have you ever recreated the stall WHILE being scoped onto the injectors and coil power feed? Maybe you can see what drops out or why it's stalling: maybe the computer is dropping power to the coils or something? and no throwing a code for some reason?? Everything seems to check out, other than the fuel variable
There is a few things to check still. Would be good to have the 4 channels of the pico hooked up to ignition and injection While it stalls. If that is all looking fine . Then Gearbox torque converter locking up .. stalling it? AC compressor locked up clutch engaged stalling it?
EGR valve killing it with exhaust gas . Ignition lock circuit fault. 1 channel voltage on ECU ?
I can attest that adjusting your valves will fix a rich and stalling issue! All but two of my valves were well below half the spec for clearances. I’m running much closer to zero on short fuel trims and I have not seen one bit of indication of stalling. I think how good my engine sounds after has made me a fanboy again.
My 03 Element has 252K and starts, runs fine after cleaning throttle and idle air control. Then performing Honda's idle relearn procedure. Never set codes. Also check to see if PCV valve is is carboned up... my PCV hose was also collapsed.
Check out Danny's DIY for idle relearn steps if you don't have it.
Did you check open purge valve?
Check for vacuum leaks? Smoke machine and spray with carb cleanet the top of the engine by injector seals and gaskets…
Purge valve was checked and doesn’t leak. No vacuum leaks either.
Valve adjustment. Those elements for some reason the valves tighten up. Adjustment spec and thats it
Ambiant or thermostat temp sensors also could be why.
Pretty sure this car has VVT, and if the solenoid is sticking when cold, it would improperly adjust valve timing when cold. You need to do a deep analysis of valve timing using in cylinder test. Calculate exactly the intake and exhaust valve opening and activate the solenoid to see its range and that it comes back each time.
Try looking at the IAC
Engine oil coolant temperature sensors giving the right readings when cold then when it’s up to temperature it’s fine .
Cold reading is accurate
Did I see 200K on the odometer? If so I got to believe mechanically the engine is wearing out, the timing chain has to be stretched, cam lobes maybe worn down or the valves have beat up into the head making valve clearance tight, I see running compression looks good but it maybe a little on the low side on all the cylinders, I think static compression is around 200-220 psi. something like that. Carbon build up on the intake valves, like direct injected cars get, it runs worse when it's cold and better when it warms up.
Seems like you've looked at/scoped just about everything except for O2 heater circuits (could be causing an issue more so on cold start before exhaust is at running temp) and physically checking valve clearances (if all are slightly off it would show all cylinders a similar wave form and no oddities)
On narrow band sensors low voltage is lean high voltage is rich 0-1 volt. Wide band sensors low current is lean high current is rich. Negative to positive current.
Oil may be fuel contaminated.check purge flow, EGR, recheck the Map value is itcorrect?..check ,ground,timing, ,B1S1 responce,valve clearance.unplug 1 injector to see AFR.etc.
great video Jake was that a pico secondary igntion probe you were using ? if not where did you purchase it from ? thanks
No it's a cheap one from aeswave.com
Pull vacuum hose of the FPR and check if it's leaking fuel. Did you have a look at fuel rail pressure with the engine running?
Yes pressure while running was steady 50psi if I remember right. I'll have to go back and look at my pictures to know for sure but I believe that's what it was.
Does the temperature sensor on the engine temperature and air temperature show the correct temperature? Have you checked that the engine oil has not become old and thick?
I have a few pulse test of those that were valves due every 100k
100% on o2 sensors. Some use micro amps. Some only give you lambda. Etc. And I've had plenty of cars that are running rich or lean but lambda is .99 to 1. But of course those cars don't give you stft or ltft. So you have to find other ways to find exactly what the engine is doing.
But air leakage downstream of the throttle body tends to increase barometric pressure inside the intake manifold, which can cause a rich air/fuel mixture ratio that will be indicated by negative fuel trim numbers.
Vacuum leaks cause lean conditions.
True...
...on MAF systems.
But on speed density, even if it did raise the MAP voltage, it'd also raise the idle speed.
Has the P0341 OBD monitor been run (Can the TOPDON check for that?)
A 5 gas analyzer would help. To see if what is coming out of the tailpipe is the same as being reported.
What about fuel pressure regulator, Does it use a independent regulator? leaving too much fuel into system.
Carbon tracking on cylinder four you can see the spark going to ground before the plug
I’m not sure what you are seeing.
Have you done an im test if the evap canister purge valve is partially open and will allow gas fumes to enter the intake ?What is your voltage at the intake manifold sensor before 91 degrees of temp? The evap will not sistem will not work .Because you are on open loop, no codes will be set . Create a condition to tell the ecm that the engine is hot even if the engine is cold. Maybe it will set a code
Have you check the purge valve being stuck open? Idle engine and command purge off and close vent and watch ftp.
Yes I have.
Overly tight valve clearances... rich conditon is because its able to pump alittle fuel mixture out thro a held open ex valve during the compression stroke...
Does it have a speeds density kit which is installed inside the inlet manifold?
valve adjusments or head gasket failure maybe
Why you didn't hook up the scope first thing when engine is cold and the stalling occurs?
I am not a technician by any mean but i enjoy watching such content 😅
I have and it doesn’t show really anything different
Looks like this is a case of study for Mister Bernie Thompson
Could it be the gas evap valve not working as expected? Kind of stuck situation? No idea if this car has tank pressure sensor to raise code.
spotty aftermarket coil in number 4? try swapping coils.
Map sensor reading seems a little high of almost 7 psi I think should be around 3.8 at idle
That would be around 16 inches Hg. A bit low for sure.
I wonder if it is the trans pump having tcc lockup?