1962 Pontiac Catalina 421 SD: 4-speed, Super Duty Sleeper
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- čas přidán 2. 10. 2023
- It may be the world’s first true factory sleeper. As the Indiana Jones of the automotive world, the 1962 Pontiac Catalina 421 SD packed a punch that its exterior wouldn’t have you believe. On the outside its unassuming good looks and mild demeanor would have you thinking it’s all college professor, but pop that hood and its whips, bullets, and adventure.
It was produced by Pontiac to do one thing - rip down the 1,320 at the quickest pace possible and surprise the hell out of the competition while still looking like your dad’s commuter.
On this episode of Hemmings, TESTED Muscle, brought to you by American Collectors Insurance, Mike Musto experiences what is one of the rarest sleeper cars in existence, a 4-speed equipped, 1962 Pontiac Catalina 421 Super Duty.
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Buyers Guides and Articles:
When Smokey Yunick and others helped Pontiac dominate NASCAR
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Pontiac’s 421 Super Duty V-8 put the division on the radar in 1962
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1962 Pontiac Grand Prix 421 Super Duty
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BUYER'S GUIDES : 1963 Pontiac Catalina
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12 Seconds to Yuma - 1961 Pontiac Catalina
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#musclecar #catalina #americancollectors #Pontiac #Hemmings #MuscleCars - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Thank you, Pontiac. For what you did. You've made us all a little bit happier.
RIP Pontiac! It was so much more interesting when each GM brand had its own personality. Early 60s Pontiac was doing so much cool and innovative stuff
Couldn’t have said it better. Pure Poncho Passion Perfection.
Definitely one of the coolest cars ever factory built.
The Hellcat of the era
Absolutely
Oh what a glorious beast of a machine. I miss Pontiac, and I feel this was the coolest era for the company.
100% agree
DeLorean era Ponchos were da bomb.
These early 60’s Pontiacs are beautiful
Couldn't agree more!
As the proud owner of a '62 Cat (with a factory fender-mounted remote controlled mirror on the driver's side), and the 421 SD being my holy grail, I salute you sir for this video! This car and the 63s were so powerful that GM mandated they be tamed down in subsequent years. Anyone who questions their performance needs to chat with Arnie "The Farmer" Beswick! He, his original 62 dragster, and a large collection of SD's were all at the Pontiac Nationals this summer--definitely worth the trip! And the 8 lugs actually work well for braking as the aluminum fins shed the heat very efficiently--great engineering for the time and they look great! Thanks again for sharing, I need to go wipe the drool off my chin now--
That is cool.
Yeah, those brakes worked fine on the 64 Bonneville we had when I was a kid.
Got my first speeding ticket in that baby 2 weeks after I got my license.
"I was only blowing the carbon out of the 389 officer."
A friend we called
'Whitty had saved his seaman's pay and we went down to the dealer and ordered a Bonnaville convertible
Loaded even A/C 421 try-power fore speed auto . True 💕 LOVE
More Musto! We want Musto!
If you've not already... search "House of Muscle".
AGREED 👍🏼
Those hood scoops were off of early ford dump trucks, and were wildly popular with hot rodders in the early 60's because there were no companies making hood scoops. The were used on super duty pontiacs. They were not hood scoops at all but were heat release vents to let hot air out of the engine department of the ford dump trucks. The hot-rodders spun it around to let cool air into the carberater , some left the chrome grill/screen on while others removed it.
I’m a Ford/Mercury fan, but Pontiac had some of the best cars in the 1960’s. Beautiful cars.
John DeLorean
Pontiac had a good run. My pops passed down his 389 Bonneville convertible to me. It could drive up a wall. Remember the heater controls were like a radio. My Aunt had a 2+2 Catalina followed by a Grand Prix. My big brothet had a series of Firebirds. My cousin had a GTO. GM saved Buick ?? ( favorite of the lot: Firebird Sprint with OHC six, Sweet ).
The GM mid century modern styling was the best
Agreed
Pontiac sourced that hood scoop from Ford. It was a large commercial truck part. They also made a set of factory long branch headers for the SD engines most of which were cast iron but a rare few were made from aluminum.
No mention of the Wide Track.
Dad wore out a 62 421 Bonneville. It took him 180K miles to do it, but he got it done.
Way to go Dad! He enjoyed the hell out of it apparently.
Long Live Bunkie.
I can remember my dad adding outside rearview mirrors to our 63 Chevy II 300 wagon. The Feds started regulating safety in 1966, like dual master brake cylinders, outside rearview mirrors, among other safety innovations. Most requirements were mandated for 67 model year. On mirrors, GM sold a kit to dealers for installation. Came with placement sheet, bracket, screws & chrome mirror.
After January 1, 1975, every motor vehicle shall be equipped with a mirror mounted on the left side of the vehicle and so located as to reflect to the driver a view of the highway to the rear of the vehicle.
Thank you!
My goodness that interior is SWEET! The lines on it are so nice, too.
Fantastic car! Pontiac made some great cars early - late 1960s.
Yes indeed!
I had a 64 Catalina with the smoothest running six cylinder. It was incredible.
I've heard you could hardly hear those running.
Love the early gm bubble tops. Mo Musto!!!
We do as well!
i had a 62 grand prix black on black 348 hp 389 with a T10 4 speed wide ratio and 323 rear gears, wish i had it today, all time favorite car.
That was the beginning of the era when certain car dealers of the various makes in your area would be the dealership you went to and talked to the salesmen in the "performance department" about what you wanted. They would set up the order sheet with the correct parts numbers that gave you something like the Pontiac you drove. They were knowledgeable and a couple of times my friends went to order a certain model with a certain engine/transmission and would be told they couldn't do it but if you could wait until next September that may change. Sure enough you could then order what you wanted. Thank you for the ride down memory lane. As you said there were a handful of that model built but it wasn't alone in the horse power race and purpose built cars that ended when the government and the insurance companies said that era was over.
What a time to be alive!
Can you imagine trying to do that today?
@@drivebigmuscle8080
Imagine walking into Mr. Norm's Dodge Dealership and custom ordering your street or strip drag car and they custom built what you wanted. It was a fascinating time to sure but then if you were there you'd be 80 years old like I am. Everything has a price. It wouldn't happen today because there are too many people who think they can live your life for you and keep you safe because you aren't as capable of doing it as they are.
Interestingly, armed with enough money and the proper parts numbers, you could drive out with a racer just like the ones on the tracks of the day, whether circle tracks, drag strips or road courses. This was true of Ford and Chrysler, as well. Although the money involved was significantly more than your mom's '62 Bonneville or your dad's '62 Grand Prix, it wasn't enough to buy a house. It was usually slightly more than your dad's boss's 1962 Cadillac Fleetwood Sixty Special. The hard part wasn't getting the money; it was getting the parts catalog codes. The codes for the president to send missiles to Moscow were about as easy to get. Today's race cars are only cars in the sense that they have four wheels and an engine. Usually you need enough money to buy several houses to field a race car on the track now.
Slightly off the subject, if you knew the kid at the Sunoco station, you might get him to sell you Sunoco 260 racing fuel - a mythical unlabeled spot on the Sunoco pump dial that was rumored to dispense gasoline so fierce that, equipped with it, you could beat a Cobra with a Rambler. It came at a significant price premium over Sunoco 240 - like everyone else's high-test. I paid for Sunoco 260 every Friday night and now that I am almost an adult, I suspect I was hoodwinked.
Holy shit thats a beautiful car!
It was elegant and tough at the same time!
Excellent car. The Gilmore museum is one of the best car museums I have ever been to. What was sad though is that through that whole well-done video, we never got to hear the car. I mean seriously.
Noted for next time.
That is such a clean simple design for 1962. Other cars of that era were over the top futuristic with fins and do dads. I like the elegant simplicity of that car.
Same.
Every car in 1962 had this look. Fins started to fade in 1960.
When I was in high school, a neighbor down the street whose father worked at Pontiac got one in burgundy with wheels like these. It was smokin hot! It also had some aluminum panels, I believe hood and doors. There was not stock car that could keep it with it. He also had a set of slicks that he would use at the drag strip, and sometimes on the street. His father was an engineer and they did some other things to it ,like dump pipes or cut off exhaust pipes.
I can still see it going down Woodward Ave doing stop light drags!
I love reading and hearing stories like this. Makes me feel like I was there! And I'm in my 40s
Yup - he opted for the lightweight package!
That neighbor had it figured out and per the pure joy of that rig
My dad had a green with white interior 421 2+2 convertible with the 4 speed. I did not know how much horse power it had. All I knew was at night when he was asleep, it was very fast. I loved his car.
In their day, a fantastic road car…high speed travel was Rock Solid. Super good suspension system and great power train 👏🏻👍🏻👏🏻👍🏻👏🏻
My first car in high school was a former Allen County Sheriff’s personal cop mobile - 1963 Catalina 421 HO ( Not SD) with a floor mounted 3 speed. My left leg was much stronger than my right leg after a few months of that clutch! It didn’t really need 4 speeds - the torque was awesome ( and so was the fuel consumption!)
Did you nail any of that high school snatch in the back seat?
@@seeharvester With a back seat that size, I hope he nailed ALL of it. Carry on.
@@RemingtonArmy-
Yes Sir! :)
I wanna drive It too!Nice presentation Mr Musto.. one of my old bosses had one of these parked in his tool & die shop in Franklin Park Illinois....
My Dad had a Pontiac Grand Prix similar to the Catalina, also a 62 model. It also had the 8 lug brake/wheel design, the automatic transmission, and the console. Very nice car you have there!
Thanks for sharing! Anything done to it?
No, he kept it stock, he loved the power that car had. His favorite car of all.
@@hemmingsmotornews
The National traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1966 addressed safety standards, including rear visibility, and although it did not specifically require mirrors, they started to become standard equipment in the mid-to-late 1960s. -Car and Driver Magazine
THANK YOU!!!! I was waiting for this!
Leno often mentions that before 1967 auto designers could do whatever they wanted, making the great era of auto design.
I remember 1962. I was a you kid starting grade school. I never seen one with a hood scoop.
Wonderful car and really enjoyed the ride-along. When I was in high school, I owned a baby blue '63 with the same body style. Just a trusty 389 2 bbl. with the Slim Jim automatic (newly rebuilt). Beautiful car and good memories. I owned it for a year and then sold it to my grandfather as his '60 Belair did not have power steering or brakes and my Pontiac was a bit fresher. He drove it for five or six years with no issues. I needed something more economical for commuting to the U of M. Now I can fantasize about having one with the SD motor.
They're simply brilliant machines and ride like a dream
63 might have been even prettier. A 63 GP is my fav
@@richardmorris6365 Building one now. Cameo White w/black interior.
Love the styling. It's killer!
Good to see Musto back on video.
More to come!
That is a beautiful car. Dark. Love the drop on the back of the roof. Pontiac had their game on. And somebody had the sense to get the best factory options.
In person it was such a stunning car...
Very, very cool Pontiac!!❤😮
Few cars back then, even few luxury cars, had right side view mirrors, although they were usually an option.
Seats in those days didn’t have side bolstering because they weren’t designed to be flung around curves like a Porsche. They were designed to drive serenely down an interstate.
My 64 Catalina was ordered without outside mirror, no console, no power steering or brakes.. heavy duty clutch with clutch assist, 389 Tri Power, now a 455.
When I was a young lad a neighbor owned one of these I was hypnotized to say the least watched as Carl ( the owner) checked adjustments and shined up the top of his car . He kindly instructed me about waxing the lower areas of the car ( which he inspected my work) after an afternoon of buffing and inspecting he said do ya wanna go for a ride ? It was the first time I exceeded 100 and on a two lane tar and chip road I've been addicted to speed since.......Thanks for the first thrill of a lifetime wherever you are Carl Boss
Those were the days! ❤
Thanks Mr. Musto, that car looks fantastic as well as the Gilmore Car Museum
I used to dri e around in my buddies 55 Belair , all stock , original , it would transport ya back into the day. As a certified Pontiac freak , really enjoyed your work.
1972 455HO T/A
1990 ZR-1 Corvette #2822.
The hood scoop is sweet!!! Simple and clean!
Glad I found the guy again.
Me too! 😁
Reminds me of my '64 Bonneville convertible. Fire engine red with a white interior. Had the 370 HP/3-2 421 engine, automatic. No posi !! (destroyed driver side tires !!)
So, YES.. I get it !! Pontiac had it going on !!
I really miss the 60's cars....
I will never forget when, as a 6 1/2 year old, my dad brought me out to the garage to show me our new 1962 Catalina in January 1962. It was plain brown inside and out, but the design, as you have pointed out here, was so different than the 50's cars we and many others owned at the time. Even my mother, no car fanatic, used to remark how good looking it was for years afterward. I never got to drive it, though. That is my holy grail, if anyone wants to offer me a test drive in one.
Pontiac was so ahead of design's...cool memories!
The architecture of this car is A+++.
I love Pontiac. This was a great video.
Thank you!
Musto and a car review?
automatic thumb up
Elegant machine, understated - not often America makes something so good that's so restrained. I love it. It's as stunning at the Cadillac series 62 made the year before - 1961. Both the two-door versions.
All YOU Mike ✊🏼
I drive a super duty GTO yes a super duty GTO ..dealer option 1 in existence cub Collingwood my great uncle owned a Pontiac dealership and was 1 of the 13 dealers to get the ( Swiss cheese) cats in 63 Pontiac pulled out of drag racing and he ordered a 66 GTO sports coupe ( post car ) gutted it and shoved a 421 super duty Muncie 4 speed 430 gears and continued racing and it's a rare platinum silver color ..so yes I know those cars I have the pleasure of driving a super duty
Awesome story, thank you for sharing!
@@hemmingsmotornews look up Tonto 3 and Tonto IV those are my great uncles Cats he got the last one off the assembly line 1963 and also featured in Pete McCarthy s book
Its dealer installed so it doesn't count ,kinda like the 66 fairlane built by hollman and moody SOHC 427 4 speed basically dealer installed cool car none the less
Sure it counts it's a true 421 super duty ..dealer installed or not it's still a SD the badest of the bad
Who gives a shit
Yep! I want one! I won my first trophy at a car show in 1998 and I have never seen one of these at any show. EVER!! Thanks so much, and have a good cruise.
Very nice! What car did you own in '98?
I owed a 1977 Buick Electra which I had bought as a daily driver for $2,000 in 1993. It was a nice one owner car, so I kept it. I still have the car, and have owned it for 30 years now. It won a Gold Senior award at the 2022 Buick Nationals and awards at two car shows this year. Two tons of fun!@@hemmingsmotornews
One of my favourite cars ever. I love 1959 to early sixties GM cars, but this one stands out for me!
Agree - a favorite of mine is the split fin '59 Bonneville - just amazing
Talk about a rare piece! I really think of this as the Banker’s GTO. I’m surprised about the brakes to be honest. I’ve never driven one, but read so much good about these. I guess it’s all relative, in their day they were much better than typical but by today’s standards maybe not. In any event, thank you as always for taking us along. ~ Chuck
Thank you Chuck - and it was such a privilege to drive such a rare car - there was nothing about I didn't like - well, maybe the lack of side mirrors, but that's it!
Don't know what was wrong with this cars' 8-lugs but my Dad's '63 Grand Prix 4-speed and his '64 Tri-Power Bonneville would smoke the tires on a stop.
@@caribman10 Maybe it's because of my associating them with the pre-eminent cool cars of the day but, in my opinion, the Pontiac eight-lug wheels are the best looking factory wheels ever put on a car. They looked masculine and intimidating. This was made even better by the fact that they actually served a purpose - accommodating big brakes.
Everyone should have a car they look back at when they park it and never lose it in a parking lot!!!!!!
My neighbor growing up had a 62 Catalina, red / red, with a 389 (I think) and a four speed, all original. I loved that car. Very nice SD and a great review, Mike.
Appreciate that, thank you!
62,63,64 Pontiacs are my Tri 5 Chevys!
Us up here in Canada we were RIPPED OFF! All we got were X framed Biscaynes with Pontiac fenders on them! We were given 283's,327's & if we were real lucky the odd 348...NO tri-powers,NO 4speeds (just power glides) ,NO Kelsy/Hayes,NO Wide Tracks,NO fun! Mind you I still had about 6 of my fav 62,63,64 Pontiacs I was always SO freakin' mad every time I seen a US version! This one just Rocks!
I was an amazing car all around, beautiful and sinister at the same time.
Goosebumps. This is the Holy Grail
Amazing selection of options. To get to drive this car, I just can't imagine. Solid video.
It was definitely a privilege
My Grand Father had a variation of that car, 389, auto... it was beautiful
My father ordered a 66' Bonneville convertible, 421, 3x2, 4 speed. Dark green, black top and interior. A sleeper and absolutely gorgeous......
Living in that time period. I wish I would have realized how unique the times were. I got to drive a '70 Hemi Cuda. The earth shook when the Cuda started.A 70 SuperBird 440 6 Pac. You could not go the speed limit in town in first gear. The engine cammed out so bad at 3000rpm it would try to toss you into the windshield.. A 1970 428 Cobra Jet Mustang top loader 4 speed I owned two GTO cars 1966 & 1967. 67 was automatic, 66 was M22 and had a newer 400. 1965 4 door 4 speed Gran Prix with a 421 factory stock and it could bury the speedometer needle. We raced the SuperBird on the freeway on a late night
Pontiac got 144+ mph but the Bird left us like we were parked.
I found an unusual 1963 Bonneville in Dufur Oregon at the Goat Herders shop in 2012. I wish I had written down the VIN
I could be wrong, but I have reason to believe that 1964 was the first year requiring outside rear view mirror.
Thank you for getting specific on the scoop, I was curious. 👍
I freakin love the color of the interior. Pontiac interiors are much better than the usual black vinyl chevy’s.
Great Car.. Great Vid.. Mike Rules..
🙏
One of the best designs of all time. Love the outside,the interior & the motor OMG
There's not a bad line on it.
My landlord has a 1963 Pontiac Grand Prix. It's badass.
Excellent commentation, and video. What a superb car. And the museum, with the nostalgic settings? Fantastic. If I ever won the lottery, something I've always said I would do. Plus an A+W root beer stand, drive-in...ect. And let people rent similar cars of the era. How cool would that be. Anyway, thanks for the ride-a-long, and also many thanks for describing the drive-train, and stating the rear gear. Most never do. Well done.
Absolutely and thank you!
I've been waiting for this episode since the show debuted and boy did it not disappoint. Thanks for getting outside the muscle car mainstream. (To be fair that's twice since you also covered the Avanti)
Absolutely, and keep watching, we've got more great cars coming up!
Glad you enjoyed it!
ALL the GM two doors, and some fours, were the BEST looking GM cars! The Pontiac GP and the Olds Starfire!
There were all beautiful - I have an affinity for the '59 Bonneville - just stunning
Ooooof...so fine. Although perhaps not in the same performance league, my dad had a '62 Bonney with a 389 4bbl. Automatic. Nonetheless it had plenty of punch. Such gr8 cars. Pontiacs owned the tracks at the time.
Gr8 feature!
We had a 64 Bonney,389/4..early 60s were the best looking cars.
You always took time to enjoy looking at Pontiac . Buick and Oldsmobile competed well with each other throughout , 'The good old days' . . .
Everyone loved there cars . Girls , girls too .
T/C/E
Awesome vid of a awesome car by a awesome presenter!
🙏
Awesome channel love all your car stuff mike
Really appreciate that, thank you!
A neighbor family had a brand new 1960 Pontiac Bonnevile. In 62' our family car was a 55' Rocket 88 Olds 2dr ht.
I been in the high performance program about since I was 12 it seems like I put clutch in the big 421 good heavy cars you did a good job showing the big chief thanks
Thanks Mike. Nice to see you back.
Appreciate it!
The "Pre GTO" era. Love the old "wide-track" Pontiacs of the late 50's and early 60's.
My aunt's dad owned Boomershine Pontiac in Atlanta, the first Pontiac dealership in the South East. My cousin and older brother owned the Light Duty versions, all aluminuim front sheet metal. But they did not just own any Light Duty, but trade ins cars, my cousin's car was owned by Fireball Roberts. My brother's was Passionate Pancho owned by Arnie Berwick, the drag racer. These cars were sold so that Fireball Roberts could drive one in NASCAR. Fireball Robert's NASCAR Light Duty in in the Talladega Museum next to the race track. These cars were really the pre GTO of the time. Thank you for this post, brings back memories.
Thank you for sharing with us!
my favorite classic car.. saw a beautiful white one the other day
I had an uncle , you know that well off uncle , that had a SD 62 Catalina . I walked up to my barber shop one day and saw this white Catalina that looked a little different . It sat a little taller and had blue stripe tires that I'd never seen before . I looked inside , nothing special , blue bench seat , but wait. Is that a four speed . WTH ? Cool car . I walked inside and there sat my uncle in the chair . " Like my new car " he asked .
Long story short some Mopar guys were whipping everybody in town so he ordered the big dog . Lightweight SD Cat ! Funny thing 17 years later I went to work selling cars at the same Pontiac dealership . One of the old salesmen remembered when my uncle bought that Cat and had lots of cool stories about it . He whipped those Mopar guys too .
Oh, I'm sure the big cat put the hurt on a lot of cars back in the day
Hi I have always loved the looks of the Pontiacs of the '60s the first one I saw was my friends sisters boyfriend it was a new metallic blue grand prix with the spider mags. that's when the cars had character!
GM evaluated the brands under its roof very well, put out great models in the 60s and early 70s, the 421 Super Duty is just one of them, the fantastic car...
My 67' Ford F100 shortbed stepside that I bought in the mid 70s had a 352v8 with a 4:11 rear yet I had that thing on the highway cruising a 70mph on 3hr trips. I never even thought about it. Ran it to about 140 or 50k miles before the valves started ticking. That was a tough truck. Ran factory stock dual exhaust exiting in front of the rear tires under the running boards with glass pack mufflers. Custom turbine rims on all 4 corners.
Ford? 😜
YES. DEFINITELY. If you are ever near Kalamazoo, Michigan, do yourself a great, big favor and go to the Gilmore Museum. Nice setting out in the country. Many different eras of cars in different buildings. And the diner is a working restaurant. Spend the day. Buy a t-shirt.
Couldn’t agree more - the Gilmore should be on everyone’s bucket list
I remember growing up on dairy farm and I thinking had the coolest father. He had the fastest cars and Pontiacs were my favorites.
When I was 16 working at Duncuns Enco in 1968 (Exxon)Station, A guy dropped one of these off for service, and we had a great time test driving it.
BEAUTIFUL SUPERCAR
Beautiful. Love all things Pontiac. Always enjoy your reviews Mike 👍
Thank you!
I believe in Michigan, a driver's side rearview mirror was mandated in '65 or '66. I remember my father had a '64 Plymouth Valiant and it had no exterior mirrors. I recall him buying one once it was mandated in '65 or '66. Our new '67 Pontiac had a driver's side rearview mirror.
Thanks, a Classic..This PONTIAC Model really piqued my interest in “ Vehicles,& etc.”, in Fall 1962 ish(( unsure exact ?Date) seeing my first Pontiac SUPERDUTY ( ?) get gassed up, & looked over in Wolf Lake ,( Noble COUNTY)Indiana …. Anyways, memory has this one , White/ Drag strip livery, with slightly visible Headers / Cut outs, & supposedly After the US30 Drags ( SAT/ Sun) heading to Fort Wayne Indiana (;a Drag Strip slso), etc…I was probably 16 by then, interestingly probably had my First Car : 1954/FORD 2DRHT, with 57;289/ 4/BBL/ dual exh/Manuel, & mild custom, by Mechanic!!!!! Exciting times, esp in Car Fans….
In 1962 most GM cars were equipped a la carte. In other words there were no option packages you had to go down the list and pick the options you wanted. As example you could air conditioning and not order tinted glass you had to be careful. Probably the reason for no rearview mirrors was that back then they really did not work very well or they were overlooked on the order sheet.nothing was mandated back then. There were some options that were not available on certain models that would be stated on the option list.
I hate how so many people claim, "the 64 GTO was the first muscle car." Um ...no! The first was this car in Aug of 61 and the next month came the 62 Impala SS 409.
Although, some also argue that the first "muscle car" was the 1949 Oldsmobile Rocket 88 with the first Over Head Valve V-8 engine that most mass produced U.S. engines would be based off for *_decades!_* Most other non GM cars still had flathead V-8's for a few years.
Any teenager who could get the old man to buy one of these was the true talisman among us..
My parents had a 65 Bonaville, 421 6-pack! A frickin boat that was so fast! We would race my Nova and I would tell them if you beat my Nova, I’ll get my Mom’s car and we’ll race again!
PS studded snow tires on your Mom’s car makes sparks during the burnout 😂
It's the little things that make us smile!
Beautiful car! Nice video. My parents had a ‘62 Bonneville which was a smooth, good looking automobile with that attractive tricolor interior.
Amazing automobile.
Very rare.