The Real Reasons Why People Play Shotos
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- čas přidán 29. 08. 2024
- #fightinggames #streetfighting #guiltygear
We talked about why people play zoners and grapplers, so next, let's talk about why people play the shoto archetype in fighting games.
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I've gravitated towards shotos in a few games now and I think the appeal for me (and probably some others) is the stability of the character in the game in terms of phases, ranges, and matchups. Shotos have tools for all phases of the game and for all ranges of play, even if they skew a little stronger in one phase or another. Because of this well-rounded tool set, they tend to lack hard losing match-ups. This keeps me from ever feeling out of control or without agency in a match-up or situation.
this right here
Well said.
I think u are exaggerating this too much. Lot of the people just don't want to touch the entire roaster of characters and diving deep into the game
U know that if u pick this character u will be 'almost' get rewarded for playing. There is no this "nerdy" shit.
Why I should wasting my time and losing the shit out instead of picking the BASE?
@@malenkoechado4445 huh
@@malenkoechado4445 bro what are you talking about
Smash players were calling Kazuya a shoto because their definition of shotos is really just "character from non-smash fighting game," with the primary shared characteristics of those characters being command inputs and automatically turning to face their opponent. The reason they use this term is because the first two characters added in this style were Ryu and Ken. These characters gained the shoto moniker rightfully, but when more FG characters were added, they inherited the name erroneously.
This is where 95% of the confusion comes from, and why the FGC keeps clowning on smash players lol.
Absolutely. I was just about to comment this. The smash definition of a shoto is not the traditional fighting game definition. It is, as you said, a guest character that has motion inputs and automatically faces towards the opponent.
Let's be honest here, that's not the _only_ reason the FGC keeps clowning on Smash players. lmao
@@_Jay_Maker_ its funny too since there are arguably shotos that are within the smash universe without other fgc characters
@@davidtinfoil9324 mf super mario is more shoto than kazuya
@@davidtinfoil9324 Mario is a shoto
shotos just make you say "im heckin nice" when you win
and go on a soul searching journey when you lose
‘I must work on my oki, I must work on my spirit’
i guess that's why, from time to time, you get the teabagging kyle players. he just did run up on me several times and I didn't react to it at all. i deserve all that bag.
That's exactly the feeling.
Get a good read on the opponent and win the round: I am a genius
Try to do something saucy and lose the next round: Oh no!
Dragon Install and Ky j.D are a trap!
@@AchedSphinx Ky running at you full screen based on a prophetic dream he had 2 weeks ago telling him that this run up grab will hit
It ties into picking a shoto to feel like they "really" beat you, but lots of new players pick shotos to "really" learn the game. The feeling is that since they have a basic, default toolkit they won't get you relying on a character gimmick that ignores an important part of the game, you have to learn the "correct" response straight up. Think of all the new Street Fighter players picking Ryu; its not just about main character energy, its also a dedication to learning.
Yep, this is why I usually pick shotos.
An important tip for new people is to still play who you think looks cool. Some people don’t like shotos because they can feel too “bland” and a lot of new players have a more casual mindset of “hit buttons and watch cool shit happen.” I do love to use shotos to learn mechanics in fighters that I’m personally new to.
It's also important to mention that shotos have their priviledges as well, even if they don't have explicit gimmicks.
Unless the character is truly abysmal, there's no such thing as picking a character that doesn't ignore some part of the game and doesn't "carry you" in some way.
@@eduardoserpa1682 Needs more upvotes. Shotos tend to have 'better in class' tools compared to the cast. The good ones rarely, if ever, have worst in class or bottom end iterations of tools. Their footsie buttons, invincible wakeups, anti-fireball tools, or fireball are almost always pretty good, especially compared to the rest of the cast.
@@sylascole5254 I mean, they do act as crutches, but you can kind of choose which crutch to leave behind when you branch out to different characters. Works like a charm tbh
Also, I think the shoto gameplan is so straight forward that it turns into a safe entry for new games. picked up kof? use projectiles with Iori and punish jumps with his reversal. picked up Strive? use projectiles with Ky and punish jumps with his reversal.
Even if it is nowhere near effective or representative of how you should play, it is something that a lot of beginners will do. So it is good that basically all developers put "shotos" in their games
I still remember my first steps in fighting games, trying the Shoto type was the first time I understood 'yo, don't just run in and push buttons'.
I realized I could throw fireball and wait for the other guy to do something stupid.
That first match where I realized 'he jumps every single fireball' and beat him for it got me hooked.
The transferable skills bit is important lol, that's how you get stuck as a "shoto player." I've always joked that the more of an obligation the game is to me the more likely I am to be playing the main character. Edit: Also I felt a little bit of salt starting to get baked into that they?! Which Kyle (or Narukami) hurt you?
I feel this comment a lot. GG Strive is my first GG experience and I gravitated towards Ky because almost every other character is specialized in some way, making the game feel more like an obligation to learn. Ky is just so easy to understand and play so I get to have fun with less time commitment.
I like shoto's because of their tool kit. I personally define a shoto as a beginner friendly character with command specials that are - a projectile for space control, a meterless reversal and a special that doubles both as a combo tool as well as a movement option for neutral. Has a tool for every situation and is a "jack of all trades" character. I like those characters and gravitate towards them in FG's.
Oh yeah. . .they also need plus mids 😁
Yea damn, you got me lol, that's exactly why I like playing shotos. Even the whole "I beat you with fundamentals" stuff. You didn't say this, so this is a little bit of a strawman, but it's not that I think "cheaper" characters are less skilled or that I'm only really winning when I win with fundamentals - but its that I like winning via the fundamentals. I want to overcome all the BS other characters have to offer with just the sword in my hand and say I did it. As you said, its similar to the grappler mindset in that sense.
A shoto vs shoto is definitely exactly what you talked about though - there's no excuses for losing, and when I win, I know I won because I was "better", in that round at least.
Sol is my main in all three Guilty Gears I've played. You touched on this with mentioning that main characters are usually shotos, but being a main character usually means more character development which can help players be more attached. Call me a nerd for caring about the GG story, but for all its faults I find Ky and Sol to be compelling characters with enjoyable arcs. I haven't branched out to other fighters yet so I'm not sure if I can call myself a shoto player or just a Sol player; my biggest draw to playing him is that his combos are just fucking fun. Every other character I've tried either has to work twice as hard to do half as much damage (Milia, Chipp) or they just press 3 buttons (Nago, GL) and it doesn't look as cool. Nothing wrong with those characters, but as you said I like the reward of winning my "honest" neutral and doing my stuff so if my reward isn't cool or fun then I lose interest.
All that said, I love the diversity of characters in gear and don't feel like my losses are because my character just doesn't have as much bullshit. It's nice having a universal toolset that can adapt to whatever insane shit the other character can throw at me and I enjoy playing a variety of matchups. My favorite is probably playing Sol against Axl in Strive because it feels like I have "fair" tools to get in, and he has equally "fair" tools to keep me out, and my reward for landing that one CH c.S is super satisfying.
Nah you're valid for caring about the lore.
@@NemSumeragiexactly gg's lore goes fucking HARD
If it's in the game you're valid for caring about it imo. I feel very similarly about Sol, I wanted to play him before I knew anything about Guilty Gear just from his looks, theme, and what I read about him as a character. Turns out he's fun as fuck and I've since played him across Strive, Rev 2 and +R.
I feel the same way with ryu. I'm a huge nerd for lore and ryu's story was just compelling to me
I feel one reason people likes shotos is because they are kinda of a jack of all trades, master of none. They can zone a bit with fireball + shoryuken, they can tick throw, and they can use the tatsu to move in. It is perfect for someone that is new to get acquainted with the mechanics/different possible play styles of the game. But also old players might love it to stay flexible enough to cover more matchups and express their personal play style.
It kinda ties up with it, but a lot of main characters of different fighting games are designed as shotos to be a good starting point for new players. And main characters/poster boys have extremely high usage rate. A lot of people might like the archetype simply because of this relation.
Feeling like I “really” beat you is quite accurate, but also, I’m a big fan of having a decent tool for every situation. It’s nice for your character to not be absolutely screwed no matter the situation (unless the shoto is just a bad character)
Finally something for us
Another shoto W
one slight addition
shotos also occupy a space that lets them have a level of forward momentum that other archetypes don't have as much of without sacrificing a lot defensively like say a "rush down" archetypical character
For me personally, there's one main reason why I often end up choosing shotos, it's the versatility. I like feeling like I have the tools necessary to fight everything in the game as it helps to minimize bad Matchups, I can go into every fight without worrying about what my archetype loses to and feeling like I've lost before I even started. Funny enough, this is also why I main greatsword in monster hunter, I don't have to worry about elements or ammo or super unique skills focused on my weapon.
Interesting topic. Good amount of it makes a lot of sense. One thing I think you might have missed tho is the risk. The risk of a real DP like Sol or Ken as opposed to say a charge reversal like Guile or Leo is that commitment you have to hit forward. There's something about 623 that makes the 6 so special when you get it right. THAT'S the dopamine that I look for in a shoto. Like Kensou is my favorite KOF char (sucks he's not in season 2), cuz his DP and FB are 421 and 214. Safer for dealing with hops, but I do NOT consider him a shoto for that exact reason. Not the same risk.
I have never felt like I outplayed somebody simply because I used a shoto and they didn't. And to be honest I don't know too many shoto players who call this, thought you definitely know a lot more of them than I do. But I feel like it's not about feeling more skillful or some illusion that shotos are more honest. But that rush when you get that reaction dp that you shouldn't have been able to fit in the reaction window, but you did. Or that callout DP, the umeshoryu if you will, where you just threw it out in footsies and just fucking knew it was going to hit and it mattered. And you know it crushed them. You know it put doubt in their game. And then you did it again and could feel them losin it.
But it all starts with that 6. That commitment. That I don't give a damn what your blockstring looks like I know you're gonna leave this gap here and I know you're gonna get greedy and I know you're gonna eat shit because I had the balls to serve it, even if it meant getting blown up when you block...but you didn't, did you? I knew it. Oki? Try it now, I dare you.
That's part of the rush of playing a shoto. You can't just flick up for your reversal, you need to take the time for the motion and need to stop blocking to do it. It's not about feeling more skillful cuz you might not be. But you can still blow up even a better player if you have the balls to take the biggest risks with a shoto. Sure you can play a shoto safe and rounded. But if you let it rip and you win, goddamn it feels good.
another thing that helps is if you play a series you can trust your main to be there (most of the time) if you play one of the primary shotos. I usually have a shoto myself as a secondary just because, even if they work a bit differently between games, I can generally trust them to show up every release if some other character I fell in love with didn't make the cut this time.
I'm a shoto player through and through.
I want a shoto's versatility, not to leverage strength, but to hone.
my goal is practice.
I will play your game and I want to go uphill both ways.
‘You play a top tier because he’s busted.
I play a top tier because he just happens to be a shoto.
We are not the same’
I was never that into Sol, until I got more into GG and listened to Ride The Fire a few times. Ky just seems like a chill dude, so I played him a lot too.
They’re about the only shotos that I ever want to play, but I’d play Joker if P5A ever came out
9:36 I relate to many of your points but especially the last two. When I first started playing, I picked up Ken because he had main character energy but he was the "cool" and "relatable" one. My experience learning a shoto for a long time means I can easily pick up another shoto in any other fighting game.
These days, I prefer to play highly unique characters that take a lot of time and investment to figure out. But, I can always switch back to a shoto as a pocket character while playing casually. Good vid.
from nothing, the shoto
from the shoto, everything
to the shoto, all returns
in shoto we trust.
Honestly, the "really beating you" thing has biased me against shotos. The idea that winning and losing means more or less depending on the character you play strikes me as a weird elitist mentality.
Especially when, as you pointed out, shotos usually aren't made to be weak. Ky has really great pokes. He's designed to out neutral you in that respect, which is just as much of an advantage as getting nasty 50/50s on knockdown or disgusting command grab set-ups.
Release Sol is probably a better example. A strike/throw shoto that DOMINATED. I wouldn't say Release Sol beating Release Faust was a definitive sign of the shoto player being fundamentally better.
That whole mindset has always rubbed me the wrong way.
Anyway, I just wanted to algorithm comment.
Just a small correction, Kazuya's electric isn't invincible (at least in tekken). It's just really fast, plus on block, and difficult to whiff punish so challenging it can be pretty tricky.
He has a few frames of ducking at the start of the move so he can go below highs and hit you. Not invincible to anything else though.
I love shotos because they help me learn the game as opposed to learn the character. Because I already played characters like Ryu in the past, I was able to come into GGXX and Strive focusing more on things like RC, burst, etc without having to grasp my character’s specifics at the same time. That, and because of the all-rounder nature of shoto’s, youll never be in a situation where you doubt the fundamental nature of the matchup or your character as a whole. They might be better or worse than average, but never so awful that youll feel a loss of control.
I play em because they are the everyman character. I feel like they never really have any awful match ups, they can usually do a bit of everything just really well rounded, so it just feels like a pick you can never go wrong with investing your time into playing.
Hey man, just wanted to let you know this kind of video is interesting to watch and i appreciate the work you're putting on them.
Thanks for making quality content
I play shotos because they tend to be the most physically attractive characters. LK is spot on about the cool guy with a sword factor.
Shotos are my mains of choice with rushdown being second. I love the accessibility they have by having all the tools and their ability to be viable. At this point, I also want to be the main character of my own story so I gear towards that. If it’s a legacy franchise or existing license, a lot of my favorite characters are Shoto types and/or I’ve been playing them for years so I’m going to continue playing them
I've always thought when I saw shotos frequently winning tournaments it's because they might not be the best character, but they're great at allowing you to stick to solid choices in risk/reward and they have less technical things to worry about executing or setting up. I also think the combo of solid fireball to control space and good AA DP is very strong when you're trying to take minimal risk.
Fundamentals are what help you in the most situations and which other, more specific skills, depend on to be used. Like the word's literal meaning, they are the fundament that the rest of the house is built on.
For example, being able to smack people in neutral, move well so you don't get smacked, whiff punish, anti air, etc, are fundamental skills (different games have different fundamentals though. Marvel fundamentals =/= Street Fighter fundamentals).
Doing combos is also a fundamental skill, but it's less fundamental than the above, because if you don't have good neutral, you'll never get the opening necessary to do the combo. Hitconfirming is actually more fundamental than combo execution.
Having good okizeme is a fundamental skill, but it's less fundamental than the ability to win neutral and get a knockdown in the first place, because you'll never get to use the latter without the former.
A specific tod off of a counterhit that's space and character dependent is not a fundamental skill, because it's rare and relies too much on too many other skills to ever be used.
I met you once at a tournament in Montreal long ago. Anyways you wouldn't remember but you were a nice guy and I like your videos. That is all
I pick Shotos because they are usually rock solid, and a great way to learn the intricacies and nuances of whatever fighting game you're playing. They are usually a great stepping stone to playing other characters when you have a good grasp of system mechanics.
I play shotos in almost every fighting game( Ky, Akuma, Jin) I touch because I like having a tool for every situation. The jack of trades archetype ensures I’m almost never in a situation where I’m helpless. There’s always something to do, whether it’s zoning with fireballs or pretending to be a grappler with tick throws, or pretending to be a rush down character with frame traps and simple strike/throw set ups, or playing footsies with pokes. You’re never bored and you’re never stuck with a singular win condition that bottlenecks your gameplay. This is just an opinion of course.
I think the shoto popularity is pretty simple. They're well rounded. Everyone tells beginners their supposed to play the shoto character. They are a kind of fighting game Rosetta Stone, lots of transferable skills between games means less work learning any given game.
I've always considered shotos less as a specific handful of tools, but moreso characters within a game that are specifically designed to be versatile and well-rounded within a given game's ruleset. This probably is because my first fighting games were 3D fighters, which are far lighter on projectiles and have nigh nonexistent air games, but still have certain characters that are built around flexibly and efficiently using the core game mechanics to secure victories. It's vague, obviously, but I do think this more general definition still lines up well with what your interpretation of what feeling shoto players run on; beating you fair and square.
I've always found shotos very uninteresting to play, but very important as learning tools. They offer a uniquely clear window into the game's clockwork, which is so regularly obscured in this genre. Even without playing them, analyzing their kits' designs can simultaneously analyze the fundamentals of the game and how it's "supposed" to be played compared to the games you're already familiar with. This has been supremely useful in making things click into place with games that were refusing to do so with my previously learned patterns.
I like the slight differences in shoto kinds of characters like Ryu/Sol/My/etc. It's just fun to see the different forms the archetype takes. Plus it provides a good foundation to learn and game and keep some consistency across titles as I learn and improve. No matter what new and weird mechanic an FG has, a good DP on wakeup is still invincible if your opponent doesn't read it.
The shoto mantra: "I'm just better ❤️"
I've always sorta thought that Shotos are relative to the game they come from. They are representative of the "default" toolset that their game is built around. Like how Fillia is the Shoto of Skullgirls, and represents how fast-paced and high flying that game typically is. And in Strive, there's a lot more emphasis on aggression and rushdown with Sols buttons being kinda stubby, but they advance a lot. And how Giovanna is still kinda built as the third shoto of Strive because there is much less emphasis on things like fireballs, but she has a step dash and a lot of special moves that advance and really aggressive but straight forward Oki.
This is what Shotos should be. I think LK’s definition is a little too street fighter specific. If we’re gonna use it as a general fgc term, then we need to generalize it to apply to other fighting games. I agree w u 100%
I mean, if you want to call fillia a shoto then she still fits the general characterization of dp, forward advancing move (the spike ball move) and drill could be a projectile. For a shoto in that game tho, i generally think of annie 9 times out of 10. But i dont think SG is a game that has characters that only fit one archetype. They usually check 2 or 3 boxes, or else they make their own archetype.
I personally wouldnt call gio a shoto either. Shes built closer to a cammy imo. But this is all just my opinion. Take it or leave it 🤷🏾♂️
I won't argue, your definitions have the nuance that I have xome to over the years. I'm far from a tournament winner, but yeah, shots players like the readability of what you do vs what happens, and the options presented, neutral, space control, offence, defence as the basics. Shotos are that. So playing one and doing the right thing at the right time feels like fundamentals, which are transferable skills.
So fo one to have mastered that, feels good man.
well by this definition Kazuya is a shoto so long as you only look at smash since he has the laser eyes which fill the roll of the projectile.
I play Shotos because they are versatile and often have good mobility. That's all I need to have fun. I have all the tools I need to succeed and I can look cool while using them.
As someone who mainly plays shotos you were definitely spittin' cause I play them for all the reasons you listed.
I will add one that goes to what you were saying about the phases. Shotos always have options for every phase of the game. It is no point where they feel like they're kind of just waiting with nothing to do. Which adds to their appeal for me.
I thought how it was interesting that you show how grapplers and shotos are two sides of the same coin (strike/throw)
What can I say other than, "They work!"? They're usually super stable characters too. Can almost never go wrong with a dude who's basically MADE for the game y'know?
Easily lets you learn the feel of the game too whether you're completely new or coming from another game
Hearing LK ask if Kazuya is a shoto, hurts my brain.
Well, is he?
I'd like to know if shotos exist in 3D fighting games and who they are.
@@smoothsavage2870 Akuma in Tekken 7 i guess counts.
Fairly close for me though i think it also applies to the inverse as well for me. When I lose I realistically have no excuses. Even if the shoto may not be high tier at a given point in time, I know that I have tools for basically any given situation. If i lose an interaction it rarely feels like I got counterpicked or had to deal with a crippling character fault. That loss was just me, and I know where to improve for the next time.
there's another aspect where, possibly controversial take. Reliance on super high execution isn't fun for me. i get the appeal but i don't like having to play a character where that execution is make or break. For ky in strive specifically, it doesn't really feel like its my ability to effectively just follow a sequence for a combo or oki, but puts more weight on the pure decisions I make in a way.
My definition of Shoto is a bit broader - they're the archetype that best models the dynamics of a specific game's system mechanics. They don't need invincible DPs/Fireballs, but they typically have them, because they help those characters model the general game's ground game. They are often easy to use, but not always.
MIshimas definitely qualify (with high barriers for entry).
I've considered Melee's Captain Falcon the unofficial Shoto of that game, due to the character having the most extreme representations of every meta-defining system exploit the game has to offer (except things like Shine Cancel, obviously).
Sol is a Shoto modeling Strive's Strike/Throw emphasis from the Ken side. Ky is doing the same thing from the Ryu side. Ultimately, everyone in this game is on a Strike/Throw spectrum.
The problem with defining shotos as "the model of how the game is meant to be played" is then shoto doesn't mean much to some one who isn't familiar with the given game, and it's not too useful if you know how the game is played since you've already moved beyond the bounds of vague archetypal definitions. And it's not at all useful for talking about broader trends in fighting game design if the only definitive connective tissue between them is "they're the one on the box art"
Especially when you can use a much clearer description to convey that idea than an old iffy term from 90s arcades, like "the fundamentals character" or something.
@@commiekin There's a lot wrong with this post. First, "Model of how the game is meant to be played" isn't representative of what I posted. You might feel like it's some essentialization because you're keen to dismiss it - but it's wrong.
Secondly, a lot of Shoto players tend to plateau with the characters because they lose focus on what the archetype's strengths are. I think my definition can help with that. Feel free to disagree.
Lastly, this is just fighting game nerd talk. This whole discussion is only going to be useful to a small subset of an already small subset. This is like coming in to a discussion of Pokemon card players trying to optimize MTG slang terms and telling them they're wasting their time.
@@SLFKimosabae " they're the archetype that best models the dynamics of a specific game's system mechanics" are your words. That is a description of a character who is good at that specific game's fundamentals, who is the model of a game is "meant to be played" on a basic level.
Also the idea that you should play to your archetypal strengths is not good advice. You don't get better at playing a character by thinking of how their archetype is meant to be played, you get better by thinking of their specific toolset is used.
For example if some one asked you how to play Kazuya better and you said "remember the strengths of a Mishima type" you haven't really told them anything because there's many different characters identified as Mishimas. There's three or four pure Mishimas - Kazuya, Devil Jin, Boring Jin (Some people might disagree but whatever), and Heihachi - who play differently from each other and use a similar toolset to emphasize different elements of the game, and then you have all the more Mishima light characters - Kazumi, Bob, and even Armor King.
Even in this video two characters are identified as Shotos - Sol and Ky - who are not going to be helped by being given the same advice of "play more like a shoto." Pot doesn't need to think about how Zangeif is played, they have different problems and different tools to solve them. (e: Or an even more extreme example, MB's Kouma and Zangief) There are some transferable skills and ideas, sure, but those are things you learn as you learn to play your character.
And yeah this is nerd talk but the point of verbiage and terminology is to be useful. To have utility. To convey meaningful information neatly and cleanly. Archetypal definitions can't convey a deep understanding of a character's toolkit but it can be useful for giving a quick if shallow impression of how a character plays to people who aren't familiar with the game.
That doesn't really work very well if you have to then also explain a game's unique quirks and meta and all that. At that point you might as well just explain how a character really functions.
Like as an outsider, you calling Captain Falcon Melee's "unofficial shoto" doesn't mean anything to me, and I'm going to bet people who are familiar with Smash are going to use more specific terminology to talk about what he's capable of and what he's good at rather than relying on an extremely broad archetypal term. e: Meanwhile, to use one of the few Smash terms I kinda understand, once I know what defines a space animal I've gotten an immediate impression of how at least three different characters kinda play.
To be honest I don't think shoto is a very useful concept outside of Street Fighter. It's a bit like the term Mishima, and I don't think there's any way to make it a useful encapsulation of how a character plays outside of its originating franchise, but at least when you tell me a character is a shoto by the basic definition you've told me what some of their moves are.
As someone who enjoys shotos a whole lot, I'd say you pretty much nailed it.
I probably would've worded it another way, but the idea is still there. I find a lot of charm to playing shotos in that i know my opponent probably knows every tool I have and they mostly know what they can do about it. I enjoy Goldlewis a lot but every now and then you run into someone who just doesn't know how to respond to his bullshit and that doesn't feel very good to play.
As someone who likes to play friends a lot, who sometimes have less experience on the game, that's also very convenient. No matter the game or their experience with it, since they know shotos as a baseline, they always get to interact a decent amount.
People often tell me shotos are boring, but i honestly don't reeaaally care. Even if their tools are similar, the game they're in is usually different enough from other game that the experience is different. If I play Ryu and then I play Narukami, they obviously don't feel like I'm doing the same stuff, mostly because the characters they fight is very very different.
Accessibility is honestly probably the biggest factor, like yeah if I just got a game I kinda just wanna get online and fight people. I enjoy labbing a decent amount once I'm invested in the game, but it's definitively not the first thing I want to be doing. I think me not checking out a lot of FGC content on twitter, discord etc is also a factor since archetypes other than shotos tend to have a lot more worthwile tech to learn that can be hard to keep up with if you don't do that.
There are no i-frames on Electric Wind God Fist(EWGF). Also, and perhaps this is nitpicky, EWGF doesn't actually move Kazuya forward. EWGF is done out of a stance (crouch dash) that moves you forward, so it only appears that EWGF moves Kazuya forward.
yeah it's a plus on block launcher/whiff-punisher, not a yolo reversal move
It is invincible in smash though, and that's what started the discussion
Sagat is a Shoto. Fire ball, DP and Tiger Knee as your "traveling special move"
A shoto is the first character I pick in any fighting game I play, but is rarely the character I end up practicing with once I commit to the game. To me, has to do with 2 things that you touched on: Being the face of the game (and most likely the best known character in it), and being easy to pick up. If you played SFII Ryu, you can mostly play any shoto in any game on a first run-through.
Thanks for the content LK!!
I play Hyde because delayed rekka combos look sick.
K’ from kof xv is a good example of a shoto that is still considered to be a difficult character to play.
Akuma is another example.
He's strong but is made out of paper and his combos can be awkward and tight.
Tekken Kazuya isn't a shoto, but they made him into one in smash. Electric has a tonne of invincibility (normal wind god fist still has upper body invuln and dragon upper cut has even more full invuln, but it's a bit slow), his laser works more like a conventional projectile, and hellsweep also has some full body invuln instead of just projectile invuln. (They gave Kaz too much invlnerable frames imo, lol.)
I'm pretty new to fighting games and play shotos mostly because they feel very "adaptable" for the match up, like I can zone against low mobility, easy air control if I need to, decent mobility, decent normals...
Shoto's are kind of boring to me. They want to play their game strictly as it was designed when my favorite way to enjoy fighting games is to take a character who is weak and has an unorthodox fighting style and just learn to make something of it.
7:34 SFV Ryu was really good on launch too. like atleast top3 if i remember correctly
i've definitely learned and enjoyed other styles of character, but i never feel like i'm fighting at full power unless i have a fireball, an uppercut, and a tatsu. 😤😤
Spot on. I always play a shoto when I'm fooling around with a friend in a game they have, but I'm not going to pick up. I wanna be able to play, but not that bad.
Ky should be in the thumbnail instead of Sol, tbh.
This is pretty spot on. Especially the part about how I think I beat you with real skill. You can't tell me nothing after I win a Ryu mirror. I'm the smarter player, thus I win.
i play (top tier) shotos cuz *consistency*
I main Sol in GGS for the singular reason that he's the only character I know how to play. Specifically, because he's the character used in the tutorial mode. I've played smash for years. I tried Tekken 7 for maybe a week but didn't like/understand it since it was my first ever traditional fighting game and it provides *literally zero* resources for new players; I didn't even know you could block in that game until I looked up some tutorials online. Strive is really the first (and only) traditional fighting game I've actually been able to get into, simply because it had a good tutorial mode. And since the tutorial mode mostly uses Sol, I stuck with him online while I learned the fundies and have been basically stuck with him since.
I find it immensely difficult (or more importantly unfun) to learn new characters in Strive. Not just because every character's inputs and moves are so wildly different from eachother (at least compared to something like Smash) and it's so focused on combos (including basic BnB's) that you have no choice but to grind out in training mode before you can actually play, but I find it's particularly exacerbated by the fact that Strive doesn't have character specific skill-based-matchmaking.
I've played Sol exclusively since I got the game and am now floor 9-10 in ranked. If I try to play any other character, there is no hope for me since I literally don't know what I'm doing. There is no learning to be had with a new character online in high rank. Training mode can only help you learn your inputs and maybe some BnB's. Figuring the situational stuff out and experimenting with different options is the most fun part about a fighting game for me, but there is zero opportunity for that when I am literally not allowed to play against similarly skilled opponents. I need a chance to stumble around with someone else who also doesn't know what they're doing.
Without a system like that though, the only solution I can think of for me in Strive is to just throw dozens of matches in a row to drop my rank so I can actually learn new characters against equally proficient opponents, but that feels dirty.
So I just keep playing my one character I know how to play because it feels like it's the only way that I'm 'allowed' to play the game.
i just gravitate towards main characters and they always had the jack of all trades so it was nice to play well rounded characters.
Personally I find the design, character and supers of some shotos appealing which is why I pick them up when I do, but for me they also give me a feeling of safety and control
I started on Gio, moved to Axl and I often find myself wondering if I'd started on Kyle or Sol, if I'd have gotten better at learning those "Fundamentals" and have been good enough to keep playing.
I act wait to see one for people that like Mix and/or 50/50 characters. That will be interesting.
Sol is my favorite shoto, he's the character I played a lot of times. Though I have problems against I-No, Bridget, Millia, Baiken, Nago, and HC :/
I liked to play some shotos for a long time for the exact opposite reason of "fundamentals".
Evil shotos like Akuma are often incredibly oppressive and feel unfair to play against because they have all the tools of the game.
I don't really like playing Shotos, so I kind of roll my eyes every time they add another one to Street Fighter. Although if I had to pick one to play, it would be Akuma since he's still pretty cool and he has the Raging Demon.
LK your videos are the best, literally info for the better players in gaming
General consensus: let's make the main character easy for everyone to play!
Virtua Fighter devs: WE LAUGH AT YOUR PROPOSAL!
10:47 "the challenge aspect of grappelers" as S tier AC potemkin does an unblockable lmao
I love playing shotos because I enjoy jumping into late fierce, eating stale bread, drinking water without any ice, watching the latest season of the simpsons, and dirt.
This is going to sound real weird, but hear me out "Shoto" just has a different definition in Super Smash Bros is the simple Answer. The actual Definition for Shoto still applies to any character that is one exactly in the game. It's just Smash has basically 1 Word describing 2 Different things.
Explanation:
The smash community is basically grouping a bunch of characters that play the sameway in game together. The characteristics are.
- The ability to Automatically Turn or Face who you're fighting.
- Actual Multiple Inputs That Perform a Move and also Enhances It.
These Are the important aspects of what makes the four characters (Ryu, Ken, Terry, Kazuya) unique in Super Smash Bros.
These are Shotos in Smash. The term should be changed to better describe those certain characters imo, but it's unfortunately just a case of a term that was once correct becoming wrong because of a newer game. Remember the only Shoto for awhile was Ryu in Smash Wii U & 3DS. That was still true in Smash Ultimate too, even with the Addition of Ken to the roster. It was all messed up though because of DLC with the inclusion of Terry. The community is just too used to calling characters with the traits described above as "Shotos" lol.
If I could replace what we should call them, I'd probably come up with something lame like Auto Turners, or Sameway Facers lol
i feel called out, but it's true though
Shotos are generally mid to low tier because their moves are all pretty vanilla and plain exception for example is GGS launch Sol which has his buttons being overtune
and if i land a hit with a shoto it's because i read my opponent correctly and no matter how salty my opponents are they know it too, and they can't complain aabout it without looking like a scrub
People play shotos simply because they are the “All-Rounder” characters. They excel at a lot of things and don’t really come with any major weaknesses. They not only are great beginner characters, but they also can, for the most part, get the job done because they aren’t hard to learn or even master.
Picking a shoto is having the option select of going completely ham with wakeup shoryukens and random tatsu and still beeing able to say:"But bruh, I'm playing basics."
You got me.
I also tend to enjoy the character personality of shotos more. That even handed, mentally loose, ready for anything, dedicated serious warrior vibe. No magic, no tricks. No super soldier, no immortal warrior, no angel or devil. A mere man, with just fist or blade, to stand against the tide.
I like Samurai Jack for basically the same reason I play shotos.
I do tend to play either the old karate man or the clean sword guy in every game. If they ever made the old karate man a lumbering grappler, I'd have a crisis of identity.
If I pick a character and there aren't any execution demands at all, I usually drop them within a week
Are you going to do one for "Gimmick" characters? Stuff like Jack-O', Arakune etc.?
Cause as a player of these kinda characters, I'd love to get analyzed like this lol
Lk talks about fighting games like he’s running a casino
"Shoto" in the context of smash discourse has been used to just say "poster boy character from a fighting game franchise". We don't have to go through the argument and the explanation every time to specify that kazuya is not a shoto, because no fighting game player would say it is (not saying smash is not a fighting game, just saying the community is often separate).
3:26 Why doesn’t Kazuya’s projectile in ultimate count as a fireball? That hitbox sure looks like one
Not sure why not in ultimate, but I guess in Tekken it’s a different move entirely. News to me.
Maybe the ultimate version is too fast(projectile speed) or too slow(active frames) to work as a “real” fireball. I think it’s mostly used for edge guarding, so I guess we could require it to be some level of neutral tool?
@@sumthinorother9615 Yeah, Kazuya is definitely not a shoto in Tekken, but he at least fulfills the upward move, sideways move, fireball thing in smash. Kazuya isn't a shoto in tekken, but I think he might be in ultimate lmao
it's a beam, not a fireball; the travel time makes the difference since you can no longer move independently of it onscreen
@@Jako3334074 Fair enough
Beautifully articulated!
I play shotos on occasion, but usually consider myself a player who makes the other player beat themselves rather than outskilling them on a fundamental level. I consider myself fully carried by character choice and getting the other guy to panic rather than being good myself. Usually I prefer characters with big range and big damage, some defensive tool like a parry or a good super armor move, and often a command grab. Characters like Nightmare (Soul Calibur), Hakumen (BlazBlue), Vaseraga (Granblue) XX Baiken, etc. Komachi in Soku, ABK Fritz, a million poverty games I shouldn't go into. Shotos are pretty much just side characters for me.
When you said outspacing/winning the midrange, and getting them to flinch or panic is the dopamine hit for a shoto player, that is specifically what I live for. But I guess for me that flinch is usually the fear of the command grab getting them to jump out of the corner, which causes me to instantly kill them. Hitting them with Vaseraga 2C CH is always the highlight of the set. All my smaller reward mixups are in service to getting them to make that one big, big mistake, whether it's over-committal in the corner or just a big read in neutral.
So it's kind of interesting that you'd say shoto players are after that same thing. Guess it's just in an "I did this" way rather than my own "you did this to yourself, now die" way.
anyway when's granblue rollback
As a Nightmare player I can relate.
I kinda like shotos but... Give me the one with the longest normals lol.
Currently playing Sin, just like I did in Xrd. I hope Beak Driver becomes the neutralizer it used to be
I like the cool guy with the sword. Swords are cool.
Even cooler when the sword happens to be a railgun
I like playing shotos because ofcourse they have reliable tools for any situation. But even with how reliable they are a shoto will tend to still lack in certain areas of the game. Which will most likely make you rely on the universal system mechanics that everyone can use in order to make up for those shortcomings. Which in turn like how the video says makes you feel like you properly beat your opponent.
IMO Shotos are for people that don’t want so deal with really tough matchups, and are willing to give up good matchups to reduce that. They still have non-neutral matchups, but matches with shotos will come down to who plays better more often than matches where neither character is a shoto. Most shotos are just honest characters.
I play them because they’re similar in all games often with the same inputs so it’s easier to go from game to game
For me I like mirror matches. Shotos are the most played characters so you get a lot more mirriors or get to vs the rival shotos a lot. It is the "i'm better" factor on the juice.
such a great vid
I mean I’m usually a grappler player, but I picked up Sol in GGST when I started cuz 1 I’ve always played Sol even when I started in XX (I took a massive break cuz I didn’t even know Xrd was a game until strive was announced 😅)
I played Alex in SFV tho and I gotta say they play kinda similar.
the smash community generally associates the term "shoto" to traditional fighting game characters as a whole, because ryu, ken, and terry are shotos, and now that's just what people call traditional fighting game characters in smash regardless of what the fgc considers a shoto
i guess that's why when i played nu I got some hate mail from time to time, but now that I play gio, no one says a thing. like damn, I really did throw 5 times in a row to comeback from a pixel of health. hold dat. gio has 1.5 of the 3 shoto traits so i'm considering her a bit like one.
I like knowing I have an option somewhere for any issue, never have to just suck it up
I hate playing as Shotos since alpha. It's like sf2 I graduated from Shotos and never want to get held back. Whole reason why I skipped SF3. The only og characters that made it in were both Shotos. Then 2nd impact another shoto. It's like why do I want to dumb myself back down?
I pick Ken over Ryu because his DP is on fire which makes it cooler
so, luigi is a shoto? he's got a tatsu, a shoryuken, a tatsu. Is that the piece that makes him a shoto? luigi has a shoryuken, but its not used as an anti-air (used in that manner his opponent recovers before him), but it is intangible.
Believe it, Luigi is my favorite shoto. The Ken to Mario’s Ryu.
I think you nailed it dude.