Used Arborist Ropes Break Super Low!?
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- čas přidán 8. 09. 2024
- Cody Zimmerer gave me 1/2" used arborist ropes that broke at 11kN and 12kN which is super low compared to my 10mm static climbing ropes that break around 18kN. Cory Grossman gave me some new rope of the same type and they broke almost twice as high at 20 and 21kN. Used 3/4" double braided bull run rope broke at 20kn which is also pretty dang low for how thick of a rope it is.
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Something very important to note about the rope you tested : Samson Blue Streak is what it looked like. This is a 16 strand climbing rope, very different than kernmantle rock climbing ropes. 16 strands are designed to be entirely cover dependent, they do have a core, but the only purpose that serves is to stabilize the rope and keep it round. So, as your using it, the load bearing component is what is wearing out so these ropes degrade in strength constantly over time whereas kernmantles protect their load bearing component unless the sheath is breached. I’m a little surprised by the bull rope but we do get their breaking strength from a bollard so like you said the knot weakens it a lot. When we rig really big stuff we add a wrap under our running bowline in a half hitch around the price being rigged to take some force off of the knot and dissipate it through the half hitch. You also aim to catch large pieces dynamically and softly so you don’t shock load it with 10k lbs.
Good point with the rope construction, I guess it's also worth noting that I use sterling atlas for my rigging line and that's a 32 strand construction with a 4.1% stretch at 10% of mbs. Drenaline, another popular climb line, is also 32 strand construction. So there's definitely some variables to play with there.
Yes. To your point, half hitch + running bowline combo very likely doesn't experience 50% reduction in MBS (unlike most knots would). Half hitch + clove hitch is also extremely common as well. Both of these knot combos are used almost exclusively on higher loads. Higher load logs are bigger diameter by nature and would have much better surface area to spread the MBS on the half hitch before the knots. Combine this with the fact that we use porta-wraps (aka: break tubes, bollards?) with no knots whatsoever.
Exactly. Which is why you should always use a friction saver when climbing trees.
Our work is also about positioning. We don't take big whippers a bunch. If you do then something happened that you were not paying attention to. Keep safe in them canopies treeple! Thanks for braking into our rope life.
"6 strands are designed to be entirely cover dependent"
Is that why the core looked like random surplus fiber?
I’m both a rock&ice climber and an arborist… 2 things to keep in mind about the low breaking strength of arborist ropes; #1…these ropes are NOT meant to be fallen on! Arborists use their ropes for positioning only (so safe load limits can be lower)…if you’re actually fallling on your rope, you’ve done something very, very, very wrong! #2…arborist’s ropes are subject to WAY more abuse than virtually any rope that is used for rock and ice. The amount of abrasion an arborist’s rope is put through daily would make most rock climbers cringe (and immediately replace the rope!). Bull ropes are meant to catch falling weight, but again, they are catching heavy, “lead” falls (with a static rope) over and over again EVERY DAY while still being subject to the abuses that the arborist’s personal ropes receives! (So, while bull ropes begin life very strong, their breaking strength goes downhill fast after being used for a few jobs!). And, like any expensive tool that is used daily, arborists try to get the maximum use out of their ropes before retirement, often waiting to retire them until they have DEFINITELY become questionable!
I've agree in all my years of climbing I've never fallen and shocked my rope, I've done big swings back in to the tree trunk from branches but they are always controlled swings. The only other close thing is when you have a top rope and you are spiking a tree and you slip and fall back into your harness
Yaay arborist content! Very exited!
Loving the arborist series! Thank you
Im hoping to see you test a Portawrap.
I do tree work myself and I want to point out that the ropes we work with aren’t designed to be very static. It’s polar opposite. These ropes are designed to stretch as much as possible to catch the load we are rigging off the tree so that the pieces coming down don’t put much force into the tree in which the climber is in.
I think you're referring to the bull ropes used to move the branches. This is a blue ox static rappelling/ climbing rope in the test. You wouldn't use your climbing rope to haul with. These type of ropes aren't designed to take falls, but to keep constant tension while prusik climbing or rappelling.
I use larger sizes of rope not so much for extra strength but for ease of hand griping the lowering lines.
Test more arbor knots, like a video about rigging knots specifically to show which ones hold up better as far as strength and untying after being under load. Another video could be to test abor style anchors, and even further more testing some trees themselves, which would be pretty hard to create content for but, if you could somehow show some differences in rope angles and how that can affect your anchor point depending on the species of wood, and the diameter of the anchor point. All just ideas to work with🤷 but there's definitely alot to be done as far as arbor style break testing. Also, one abrasion testing, as some people do natural crotch rigging which is far more abrasive on the rigging line and will burn it up, where as pulleys and rings are more gentle. Also, when we use a portawrap "lowering device for limbs, wood, etc" it tends to hockle the line pretty bad, and I always wonder , aside from being annoying, if having a super twisted up line affects anything other than the way it runs through your hands. Love the content and can't wait to see more.
Yeah, a super twisted up rope would be a cool test. Portawraps twist ropes up really bad.
Those results are very interesting. Even as “bad” as those used ropes performed, it is rare to hear of them failing in use. Thanks for running the test.
Yes we lie, over state the weight of the pieces of wood we drop. Only with a crane do we get accurate weights. Cranes use steel rope, and yes they are very big pieces of wood. Cranes are expensive to operate.
Ryan, please test clove hitch + half hitch combo around various size log diameters. Also running bowline + half hitch combo. Also regular clove hitch with no half hitches.
I use Petzl Axis 11mm in the tree. Climb SRT and you rarely need to worry about rope abrasion. The most abrasion my main rope sees is when i pull jt up on my throwball. The advantages of a slightly skinner line are huge when you have thousands of pounds of sticks dangling around you. Skinny enough to work with the device I like & wide enough to pull myself up it with one hand.
You make a good point which is that for an arborist abrasion resistance is probably more important than mbs.
Arborist rope is often that size because it works best with hitches and mechanical devices used in tree work. Not necessarily because of the strength needed. Because of this how the rope handles knots and how the rope interacts with mechanical devices is often the reason people chose a rope and not based on how strong it is.
Double-braided ropes are always weaker, per unit linear mass, than true kernmantle ropes. That is because the fibers in the "core" have a substantial lay angle, and the vector force along the fibers translates to a smaller force along the rope axis. Cosine theta and all that.
Use bowline or double. In the industry we call everything else "knife knots", as that is what they are to themselves and you'll need one to get it apart.
Knots that roll over themselves and not bite are the standard on static ropes, like bull or 16strand. Kernmantles have less hand and need biting knots
Awesome 👍 I use Samson Dynasorb II 1/2” rope for tree work rigging. It is amazing for knots, as it is has a soft hand to it, but pretty sturdy feeling. It’d be interesting comparing different brands for their knot-ability and static break test with different knots, such as the Daisy Chain Hitch, a hitch loaded through a half hitch (like how a branch would/could be attached), and a Zepplin Bend attaching 2 ropes together.
Daisy chain is my knot. Been loving that for 10 years on tree work. Always unties no matter what happens
@@ericharris893 Exactly! 💯. And that’s awesome!🌳💪
Not an arborist, but I do climb trees and do work in them using ropes.
I like a 1/2 inch rope because I have to grab it and pull, and the thickness is easier on my hands than something 10 or 11mm.
The most likely time the rope will see a shock load is when there's 20+ feet of rope and a twig breaks dropping you a few feet - some stretch is nice for shock absorption, but a ton of strength doesn't really matter. If the rope sees 5000 pounds, my pelvis is seeing 5000 pounds - so I'm probably dead anyways.
I realize it’s not really your thing but I especially enjoy the arborist content. Anything rope, knot and gear related! 👍🏼
Loved this video thanks for posting. One thing I have been playing around with that I would love to see a break test on is a cambium/friction saver. Lot's of different kinds, camp makes one I have. Seems like they could easily double as a rock climbing anchor. LMK what you think. Thanks for all your hard work.
I would like to see the difference between the pull test and the drop tower test.
I would love to see a video where you test a regular bowline against a locking bowline and a yosemite bowline. And whatever other variants you can think of.
super excited to see this bowline / figure 8 comparison, really curious. Never touch a figure 8 in arborist work but when rock climbing I only use the figure 8.
Super keen for this arborist content, you have a nice outsider perspective that you don't see on arborist channels but you're also super knowledgeable about all the stuff, just looking at it from the eyes of a different type of climber. (hard to put into words, but its super interesting👍 )
Thanks for showing love to the arb community !! Break some harnesses 😂
Funny enough I believe my company uses the 16mm version of your white workhorse rope as bull ropes. They work well, we buy in bulk and retire them when they get too funky.
There was this one job where we were felling a huge eucalypt, and to increase friction we used natural crotch rigging (ie we used the tree and not pulleys/hardware). After two days of work the sheath of that rope was completely glazed…-> rope was retired.
This job is incredibly hard on your gear, especially on software. You have friction from the trees, you have chainsaws and handsaws and spikes coming dangerously close to your lines, you have fuel, oils and exhaust fumes to deal with… (I work in Australia, we have paperbark trees…they DO catch fire if your chainsaw gets a bit too hot…)
Thanks for the Arborist content, this is great
Very interesting as I am a climber, caver and arborist.
I'd like to see you use rigging rings ant port a wraps when testing rope breaking arborist ropes
That is an incredibly common rope amongst arborists it's also dirt cheap and hopefully retired pretty quick. It's a nightmare to work with it wants to twist because of the way that it was manufactured. But they're popular because they're cheap
Love it man! Thank you so much. I’d love to see data on how these rigging ropes would do under rigging conditions.
The majority of the time a rigging rope will be terminated on the rigged piece by a half hitch then a running bowline ( that’s been my experience at least) the bend radius on the termination end might be 48”. Then there’s the impact block block or rigging ring to consider, next the friction device.
Cool Video, thanks! - Kernmantles are the best for abrasion resistance and strength.
I am a tree climber. I use HTP 1/2" static for ascent and pulling/speedlines, but double braid is common for rigging.
A little nylon in the poly makes for a more dynamic rigging line for big wood, and some climbers prefer more stretch for shock mitigation.
More arb stuff would be awesome!
I’m enjoying your alternative series. I’d like too see more arborist videos. Leads into the saddle hunting realm. How about some cambium savers, and would you whip harnesses etc?
Love ur videos!
You need to consider fall dynamics. Most all arborist will never see a fall a climbing g rope could take. Arborist are top ropers.
One additional factor to consider regarding rope diameter is how hard it is to cut through it. When you are working in a canopy with a saw, it is much harder to accidentally cut through a 12-13mm rope (especially dual braided) than a light 10-11mm. Abrasion resistance, ease of handling and price will all come before max breaking strength, as all of them will be up to the international standards anyway.
Bull ropes like this get abused A LOT and I would not be surprised if they saw those kinda forces a couple times. I've seen slings broken at slightly dynamic loads (FF
Textiles have no protection against a chainsaw. There is no safety factor for 13mm over 11mm or even 8mm when faced with a chainsaw. Just like cable core "cut proof" lanyards. Watch treestuff's video that shows them get cut like fishing line when weighted. It's all false security. If it makes you feel better, cool, but don't trick yourself into thinking you're actually safer.
In reference to the bull rope, one knot is all that’s ever used to rig, with the rope generally running from the knot to a block with a huge bend radius down to a lowering device with a massive bend radius, so I think the bull rope in that configuration could easily take 5k lbs
knot sure what structure these ropes are. In sailing, we typically use a double braid, that may have a polyester outer braid with a dyneema core. The strength is of course in the core and the outer braid is there to protect the core & provide knot holding. It also served to make the knots larger which greatly improves the knot strength of dyneema by increasing the bend radius within the knots. If the core is not braided, it should be close to full strength, at leas I would have thought so.
As an aside, a 2nd hand boat I bought came with a worn single braid main sheet. That didn't last well at all, it looked OKish, but just pulled apart one day. Yeah, I just wanted to see at what point of wear that happened, didn't cause a drama. From this, it seems to me that braids are much more severely weakened by wear than an ordinary twisted rope, because all the fibres are on or close to the outside at some point, but a structure that keeps the bulk of fibres entirely inside, will be less weakened by wear.
A good rule of thumb that works for me is retire after 1 or 2 years of daily use.
And only 5 years of shelf life.
These ropes are basically just plastic, and will degrade with time. UV radiation degrades the materials much like a sun bleached poster, given enough exposure.
When a lot is on the line best to keep fresh ropes on hand.
Also Arborists usually don't climb on knots, they have an eye of some sort on the harness end up through a crotch of a tree or in a pulley of some sort at the top then wrap tied around the base of the tree so never usually directly loading a knot with high forces.
Umm what about your hitch? Isn't that a knot?
Hey this is so mega awesome - I'd love to see videos on those specific topics, cause we've been having mamy discussion about it. Also suits for rock climbing i guess:
In treeclimbing your ropes get wet, you dry then frequently and so in. And if you don't, they mold inside of the bag. If they don't mold for too long obviously you wash them in the machine, what you can do only so many times cause if chemical right? So those different situations would be great to have tested.
Also "out if date" carabineers, pulleys, and definitely different climbing systems (but they are obviously expensive and should be hard enough to break, like TazLov, roperunner, zigzag, etc)
Static ropes don't overload attachment points either... limbs load dynamically and too much stretch puts loads up to and past the loading strength of the anchor point. Meaning a limb will flex, then a rope will stretch and continue applying load. While a static will only let the limb load itself.
I wonder how many people are using trees to train for big walls. I am planning my own drop tests to see if 1/2 inch lag bolts in oak, with hangers, are super good enough. Not sure where to air this message, but I would bet I’m not the only person with climbing holds and bolts on trees in their yard! Would be sweet to see various training scenarios tested.
What you say at 3:00 i think is very important considering the D : d ratios. Proper sized gear needs to suit the rope you use clearly.
Would you please use some gallium on aluminum carabeaners? The galluium will undermine the entirity of the carabeaner in minutes. I just want to see more carnage.
So many factors on arb rope as to how it wears devices used bend radios vs rope diameter ect
you should create a rope abration mashine to test ropeabration without other factors such as uv, how old it is, etc
Make more arborist videos please Ryan there interesting
Great video
Instead of those Scaffold Knots on the carabiner, try a Gnat Hitch. It'll be easier to untie and will have better security against motion.
Thanks for this!
I use 7/16” HTP kernmantle and never had an issue with it
Everyone it seems in the fire service uses sterling 12.5mm HTP. Would raise some eyebrows with brake test videos
Well this was terrifying.
You could try an Anchor Hitch it’s very easy to untie
Microtears? That old arborist rope was frayed AF.... :)
I wonder if more rope in the system would limit the strand at a time breaking seeing as no rope is perfectly static. Kind of a knot per foot of rope kind of equation.
Someone else commented on the rope being almost entirely mantle dependant. This is still common in many ropes, but the thick 13mm isn't really used in modern arboriculture.
It still exists and there's still people out there climbing on 13mm lines with a Blake's hitch. But they're mostly people who started in the 90s and never changed with the times.
Modern ropes generally are more core dependant, though not usually as much as sports ropes. And they're generally 11,7mm that seems to be the magic number in most of our mechanical climbing devices. And it's still thick enough that it's easy to grab, but significantly lighter and easier to handle than a 13mm.
Also bear in mind, for ce certification of arb ropes and industrial climbing ropes (En1891) climbing ropes need to hold 15kn at termination. They're generally tested with the factory Splice and with a figure eight. So they will get different results with different knots, but they're simply not tested with different knots because that's how the standard is written, despite the fact that we generally don't use figure eights anywhere in our systems. So your 12kn is below standard, but the rope also looked worn enough that I'd have retired it a good while ago.
I do have a 5 year old rope that's still in visually good condition, but has been used a fair bit. I might try to see if I can manage to Splice some eyes in it (it's pretty hard on worn ropes) and send some over. I'll have to see what shipping costs from sweden. 😂
Wait... they tear the phone book one page one at a time! Crap, I have been doing it the hard way. I never knew.
I've got a pull test proposal: if you tie your rope into a loop using either a double fishermen or a reef knot and pull it with carabieners as usual, where does it break? At the carabieners or in the knot?
I'm not a big fan of the double fisherman's as an anchoring knot because it is so hard sometimes to get untied at the end of a long day. Have you guys tested the anchor bend?
Super interesting! "Thicker does not mean stronger automatically"... What material are these super thick arborists' ropes?
Hemp
nylon, polyester, vectran, and a few other fibers
@@xephael3485 Arborist ropes are made of the same thing rock climbing ropes are made of.
Climbing/rigging ropes are practically always polyester or a polyester/nylon blend.
Arborists use more exotic materials/rope designs for friction hitches so they won't melt to their climb line, stuff like Technora, Kevlar and Aramid. Sometimes this is mixed with polyester, sometimes it is used as a sheath around a core made of something else, and sometimes the whole rope is made out of this material.
@@verteup WRONG! If arborist ropes were made of nylon (like rock climbing ropes) they would melt almost immediately due to the multitude of ways arborist ropes are subjected to massive amount of friction (& HEAT!). Most “traditional” arborist rope is made of polyester…some of the newer styles have some higher-tech materials in them.
Please touch the poison ivy rub it's the quintessential climbing line
It should be considered that these ropes are intended for a more “TRS”/ascension style as opposed to a leading style we would use in sport climbing
You should break test those cheap amazon “climbing ropes” to see if the ratings they claim are accurate.
The loading methods used, particularly in your 'bull rope' section, do not accurately depict the loading scenario they would be used in, while in action. I would not be surprised to see a significantly higher peak load, if loaded appropriately. Namely, with rigging lines, you would see a piece with a running bowline, backed up (closer to the rigging point with a half hitch). This would then run up to a pulley at a high point in the tree, straight down to the base, where a port-a-wrap (or similar) manages friction. No where in this system would you see a bend radius such as if ran over a biner, or pulled straight against an overhand/ 8 knot. I would be genuinely curious to see what real rigging lines, certainly not what was used here, loaded in real use scenarios would break at. I know it's been many months since your last 'arborist' series video, but I would love to see another! I would be happy to advice regarding ropes to test, as well as loading patterns 🤘
Wouldn't a thicker rope se proportionally bigger bend radiuses in the same knots if connectors are proportionally bigger too?
I've left kernmantle arborist rope hanging in a forest from a 260ft mountain ash for the last 2 years .
I have over 500 SRT climbs & been told it's unsafe .
Do you have any tests on ropes that are old and been left outside in the elements ?
try and book mark your tree next time. (use some cheap throwline or paracord for this). Research and rec climbers do this all the time.
@@canadiankiwijay I've been climbing the same tree for 2 years , I know where it is .
I'm not sure what you mean ?
@@justinzaff Gotcha. Rather than leave your rope in the tree, leave something cheap and non-PPE but which allows you to get your rope installed quick.
@@justinzaff Use paracord or throwline as a place holder for your rope, so you can remove/store it but not have to reshoot for the same tie in. That's what he means. Unless you just don't want to pack out your rope due to a hike or something.
2 years is a lot of UV degradation. If it's a nylon rope, don't trust it. If it's polyester, it may still be within specs, but I'd be real wary of climbing on it.
If you accidentally tickle your rope with a running chainsaw, you definitely want your rope to be 13 mm
Love that half dome piece in the back .. where did you get it?
my dad made it. osb plywood! haha
@@HowNOT2 it's awesome!
Not surprised given how much abuse these ropes receive. They're constantly exposed to dirt and dust. They are used in highly abrasive environments. They get shocked over and over. That will wear them out quickly.
a phonebook? what's a phonebook?
guarantee you've saved someones life by now.
[redacted wrong assumption regarding ropes for arborists]
Normally people don't really want their ropes to grip the tree. They may be using a moving rope system over a branch of a tree, and friction in that system is just going to be more work for them. I think the reason for thick ropes (half inch/12mm +/- a little being pretty standard) is because a lot of "tree climbing" is actually rope climbing, so arborists want something thick that is easy to grip, and they generally don't have to carry ropes far, so the extra weight isn't a huge deal. However, it seems that there is a general trend toward slightly smaller ropes (11mm, 7/16th), probably so the stuff runs through mechanical devices better.
As for strength, climb ropes should have a tensile strength of at least 5400 lbs when new per industry standards. It should also be noted that ropes tend to fail at knots, so even if a rope does have the required tensile strength, its practical strength may be far less.
Edit: No worries about the wrong assumption. Stating a reasonable hypothesis and then waiting to see what people say back is a great way to understand things.
Can we see og comment?
You're probably get a little bit more out of it if it's spliced rather than all those hard knots 🪢
I make my work belt lanyards out of 16 Strand and love it but I also don't let it go so long that it's Shaggy
You should break test those cheap amazon “climbing ropes” to see if the ratings they claim are accurate.