Its legitimately one of the most baffling decisions because it derailed Sansa’s entire character arc from the past 4 parts and also made Littlefinger look like a complete fool when careful maneuvering has been the thing that got him on top.
Yeah, but they wouldn't be able to show all the abuse porn without Sansa marrying Ramsay, how will she become a 'strong, independent woman' who 'knows how to play the game of thrones' if she isn't raped and assualted? But seriously speaking, this was the most baffling decision they could make plot wise. They just butchered everyone's character arcs. I stopped watching after season 5 exactly this reason.
To be fair, the last time Littlefinger did anything genuinely smart in the show was when he betrayed Ned. Even his plan to kill Joffrey made no sense and only worked by pure dumb luck. Book Littlefinger also isn't quite the master planner he tries to sell himself as, but at least he's really quick on his feet when it comes to improvising and sensing opportunities. Show Littlefinger is just an idiot who puts up a good show. He reminds me of the villain from Glass Onion, but with the difference that the showrunners genuinely believed they were writing a smart character. GRRM himself has said that he considers show Littlefinger the character furthest removed from his book counterpart.
@sushmitaraodesaraju6330 i actually seriously doubt that was their thinking. I personally believe they only wanted the abuse porn so that they say "look how edgy our material is"
@@callnight1441 Yeah, could be that too. But if the edginess was the only point, they could've stuck to the book plot with Jeyne Poole marrying Ramsay. Or stayed true to Euron Greyjoy's arc in the books. That storyline is full of edgy and actually interesting material. But then D&D would've needed to actually commit to the show and the plot, and I guess that was too much work. The only reason I say that they wanted to make Sansa a strong female role model was the way they framed the story around her and Arya, like giving them all the major story points and the way they made the other characters talk about them. I love a strong female character, but I absolutely do not condone them destroying every other character's arcs in order to boost up the fan favourites. Edit: Grammar
@@BlackwoodSupremacy Exatly. Lack of Tysha reveal was a huge issue for the story. Sort of destroyed also Tywin's death scene, because it made no sense that Tyrion was upset that his father called Shae a whore. Why would he freak out about it? :D So I fully agree, show died together with Tywin.
That was the moment season 4 ended. You can already see the downgrade as Martin left the show in season 5. People start doing retarded things. There's less attention to detail. Decisions dont make much sense. Thigns happen because the script demands it.
As usual, the books made this plot line a thousand times better. In the books, Littlefinger actually intends to marry a disguised Sansa off to Robert Arryns heir, Harrold Hardyng, then he plans to have his ‘beloved nephew’ meet with a little accident, so that Sansa’s new husband would become the new Lord of the Eyrie, meaning Littlefinger would effectively become the Lord Paramount of the Vale through his control over Sansa. Not only that, but since Sansa is a Stark through her father and a Tully through her mother and technically a Lannister because of her marriage to Tyrion, Littlefinger could potentially gain control of not just the Vale, but the North, the Riverlands and even the Westerlands. Therefore, in the books, Littlefinger plans to essentially acquire the loyalty of FOUR of the Seven Kingdoms JUST through Sansa’s marriage alone. Meanwhile, in the show, he had her marry the Boltons with nothing to gain and basically everything to lose.
@@uwe4999 No, the heir to Robert Arryn is Harrold Hardyng. Why would Sansa be his heir? Not only is she a woman, she also has no legitimate connection to the Vale except through her aunt.
@@AlexanderTheBloodraven I think the above poster meant Robb Stark, but for the vale, the same reason Lysa ruled as Regent after Jon Aryns death. Marriage to Harry the Heir rallies the lords of the vale to her cause, one child later she becomes the Regent should anything happen to Harry.
@@TheJosmanI somewhat agree. It was cool but could've been much better if there were actual consequences for Cersei and the peasents in King's Landing didn't just forget about it completely.
@@wasso9951 I agree, however, both the fact that no one seemed to care about the Sept's destruction and Cersei's out-of-character reaction towards Tommen's death were season 7's fault. If Season 7 had 10 well-written episodes i can see them showing the peasants' reaction and the consequences the Sept's destruction had for Cersei. In my opinion, Cersei should've become the mad queen after Tommen's death. She'd have been an amazing villain, but instead we had Cersei staring at the window for two seasons and Daenerys becoming the mad queen out of nowhere.
@@TheJosmanAlthough the explosion was cool, that’s not Cersei. Cersei never ever made any show of power that spectacular. She was always subtle. It was really out of character for Cersei to blow up and basically make every people in King’s Landing hate her. Cersei is smart enough to know that blowing up your entire competition to the throne is going to get you killed. One of the best example of Cersei’s power play is in season 1. She crowned Joffrey immediately after Robert’s death. That was subtle because she already establish to the people that Joffrey is the heir and if anyone challenges, that’s a rebellion. She knew Ned will challenge her so she had Ned as a traitor. This is the subtle thing she does. She doesn’t display her sadistic attitude towards the world. Blowing up the Sept was pretty cool but it was so out of character that the show runners didn’t understand what to do with Cersei afterwards. They didn’t understand Cersei even after 6 seasons of writing her screenplay.
Not to mention Sansa is also a Tully, and would have been instrumental in getting the Riverlands to side with the Eyrie if she publicly revealed herself... She's also at the point the heir to Winterfell so Littlefinger and Sansa could have also easily shook the Boltons off their power by getting the other Northern lords to rebel since practically most of the houses hated them. Season 5 is the tragic downfall in to a pit of stupidity and nonsense to what was once the greatest show on television.
THANK YOU. Everyone says that only season 7 ans 8 were bad, but in my opinion they started going back ever since the decisions of Dumb & Dumber became more prevalent over the original story (especially after the original story ended bexause the book have yet to be completed). Season 5 is already filled with bs, but it's almost bearable. Season 6 is flat-out bad. Season 7 is a pile of steaming garbage. And Season 8... we don't talk about Season 8. Season 8 never existed, as far as I'm concerned.
That storyline was so awful...I don't understand, how the writers came up with it, honestly. Like...random people off the street have better ideas. *shakes head*
@@raraavis7782they gave Jane pools story ro snasa in the show in the books Jane was snasa friend and disappeared after book 1 to come back in 5 and she's made to marry ramsay and they say she's Arya even tho she's not
Honestly the biggest disservice this plot did was to Sansa. Years of subtle growth and development that chipped away at her innocence and honour until she was finally ready to start playing the game and it all gets flushed down the drain in favour of “I got r***d so now I’m badass and ruthless and don’t need to grow at all for the next 3 seasons.”
The single worst change from novels to show. It wasn't just terribly written and trite torture porn, but also just a horrendously stupid move from a character who is supposed to be one of the smartest players of the game of thrones.
Plus forcing a character who has suffered so much to face more for absolutely no reason is just tasteless. Some of the changes genuinely made me raise my eyebrow at the D and D bros, because it comes off as genuinely disconcerting.
@@stingerjohnny9951It's just their lack of ability to come up with good ideas. It's also clear they didn't care too much about the books or else they would have followed them closer
@@MrFredstt I don’t think it’s that they didn’t care about the books, they just got complacent and lazy, all the while rushing towards the end for a Star Wars spin off that went nowhere. And that is now their legacy. Karmas a bitch huh? 🤣
The problem is that they haven’t introduced Sansa‘s best friend Jeyne Pool who gets wed to Ramsay in the books as a fake Arya and gets tortured and abused like Sansa in the show (even worse tbh). This plotline is essential to Theon and Ramsay as well as Stannis and Jon (the latter two are trying to rescue her so Stannis gains Northern support). As they were unable to do the same as in the books but also couldn’t omit the storyline completely they decided to sacrifice Littlefinger and Sansa for it to work
The way you panned it out sounds a whole lot better than what we got. It felt sexist of the writers to give Sansa the rape arc, and then use it as a pathway for character development. Contrary to popular belief, rape does not make a woman go from a poor, sad little thing to a badass b*tch.
How's it sexist though? People getting raped on television has been depicted a number of times and depending on the CHARACTER they deal with the emotional trauma in different ways
Because everybody knows just having a vagina makes you a badass. Hey stop being antisemitic. The writers are 2 Jews and they have more victimhood points then your vagina.
And that's why cutting all the side characters and side stories worked AGAINST the show writers. They wanted to include the Boltons marrying "Arya", but they couldn't do it as it was written so we got the Sansa arc no one asked for or wanted
One of if not the smartest schemer in all of Westeros does something this dumb ? Then is dumb the rest of the show . They ruined littlefinger from this point onward . Littlefinger either will try to marry Sansa himself in the books or more than likely continue with his plan to marry her to the heir of the Vale as a way to secure the Vale for himself
@@philippeblais8594 Well, no, the Tully's have no claim to the Vale. Lysa is regent because she is the mother of the heir, but the succession is strictly through the heir, it doesn't revert to Tully's.
@@torinju I know that. And Littlefinger planned on securing the Vale by marrying Sansa to Harold Hardyng. Making her the new lady of the Vale when Robin Arryn dies.
@@philippeblais8594 Well, we don't ACTUALLY know that. Its what Littlefinger tells Sansa, but he isn't exactly the most reliable guy in the world. Its not exactly the best of all plans anyhow, at least from what we know so far. There is every possibility that Harold would totally ignore whatever Sansa said once he became Lord. Though I suppose that might be why Littlefinger is teaching her to play the game. So she would be able to take power in the Vale, behind the scenes.
It's pretty clear D&D saw Sansa as a vehicle for "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" with a side of "Remember, kids, even if you were upper crust, if you had a vagina your life sucked."
The problem is that they speedran everything up to S5, so by the time they got there there was so little 3 dimensionality in each character that without bulky novel material to directly adapt from the writers no longer had a context appropriate touchstone from which to write the characters in new situations without making them seem like increasingly brainless cardboard cut outs produced by lackluster screenwriters. Giving more time/episodes to each season would have helped this sooo much. It was clear after season 1 that they had a hit on their hands, at that point they should have made each season a 2 parter.
The showrunners intentionally sabotaged the latter seasons to try and rush the show so they could get Disney contracts for the last 2 starwars movies. Disney noticed and decided to black list them for what they did.
One of Disney’s few smart decisions. Especially since S8 was so bad that it took one of the most popular shows in history and turned the entire fan base against it overnight to the point where conversations and merchandise sales plummeted almost immediately
any septon could do the annulment they don't need a kings permission. So as long as they had a septon willing at the Vale or anywhere friendly then they absolutely could get the annulment
@@RequiemSolthis is not true. annulments are very rare and not any septon can grant one, especially without the consent of one or both parties in the marriage.
If Lannisters and Boltons ended up destroying each other, then Stannis could conquer the North and then the throne. Which is something Baelish wouldn't want since he knows Stannis would execute him
@@TheKingTywinLannister Sounds like you're underestimating Stannis. Along with Randyll Tarly, Stannis Baratheon is the best commander and military strategist in the whole Westeros.
I think Baelish intended for her to undermine the Boltons, and counted on the North's loyalty to the Stark name. After the defeat of the Bolton's, he expected her to rule the North, then marry her himself. He was quite visibly taken aback by Jon being named King in the North. I think he was also counting on her former naivety, and that she'd accept his claim that he didn't know Ramsay was a monster. Unfortunately for him, she finally started to smarten up by then
Once Bran came back, his plan is ruined though. There are places in Westeros where the eldest child could become the ruler regardless of sex, the the North wasn't one of them.
@@torinju yh but that still work as he thinks bran is dead and so bran coming back can mark the downfall of the schemer that is little finger bran can tell sansa all the things littlefinger schemed about and then sansa then uses this to take control of littlefinger
I think the show runners, Dumb and Dumber, needed a reason to have the episode BOTB. Also to further demonstrate that Sansa was a strong, savvy young woman capable of strategic planning and revenge.
Thank you for pointing this out. This is the main characteristic & justification that verifies why D&D should never be allowed to write anything again. It is a outright insult and obvious display of contempt of the audience.
The death of the Tyrells also was nonsense... Seriously, the Reach would have marched their armies to kibglanding and castarley rock together with Dorne and The Stormlands and even Riverrun... They all hate Cersei, not to mention the common folk aswell... They all hated Cersei and alot of them loved Margaery... Like what the???
I think Little Finger had no clue of the damage he was doing by marrying off Sansa. He greatly underestimated the Boltons. He also thought Sansa was ready to be just like Lady Margery and be able to manipulate the Boltons. So many errors.
Yeah it's something i've been wondering ever since i've watched the show. The only explaination i came up with is that too many people were aware Sansa was in the Vale, littlefinger was scared lannister' spies would find out so he decided to give her to the Boltons. In order to turn them against each other without anyone knowing he was to blame for her returning home.
Little Finger is a risk taking schemer, sometimes they pan out and sometimes they don’t. In this case Sansa would have been back in her home and Little Finger would have had the good will of the senior Bolton who controlled the North. All of this would have helped Little Finger get closer to achieving his ultimate endgame. Where the scheme went wrong was the secret fact (even for spies) that the junior Bolton was an intelligent and cunning psychopath. Even after that Little Finger managed to regain Sansa’s trust and good will, in till his scheme to turn sisters against each other led to his deserved demise.
they did this to have sansa get raped (add unnecessary shock value) and then in s8 have her say "im glad i was raped because i would've been the same person anyway"
I may be in the minority here but the show kind of made sense when it came to that. Littlefinger married Sansa off to the Boltons because he wanted Cersei to overreact. He knew that the Lannisters would see this as a betrayal but they couldn't act on it because they were still reeling from the War of the Five Kings and Tywin's death. He manipulated Cersei into allowing him to use the Vale's forces to seize the North from the Boltons-thus granting him control of the Vale and the North. If Roose Bolton tried to tell Cersei that the marriage was Littlefinger's idea the odds of her believing Roose would be slim-he's already betrayed one king and is betraying another, his word is not reliable. Even still, Cersei would not have the forces to fight Littlefinger because he would already have control of the North and the Vale. However, he miscalculated Ramsey's mistreatment of Sansa and Jon's rise to power.
One of the earlier inexplicable decisions. Asides from the power a marriage to the heir to the Vale would bring, Littlefinger also wouldnt part so easily with his last living link to Cat and it's clear he's also falling for Sansa. Littlefinger will shaft anyone bar Cat and with her gone (Lady Stoneheart aside) in the books he's not going to cast aside her daughter, who bears a good resemblance to her. Ransay marries Jayne Poole as Arya Stark in the books as well so the show is even more off the mark.
I think his plan was (tv series not book series) to make sure Sansa would be guardian of the North, then let Stannis or Lannisters finish off the Boltons and finally marrying Sansa who now “inherited” the North
Little finger was a moron in the show after they ran out of books season 5-8 is mind numbingly dumb…his trial and death cause of the bran 9000 robot is stupid
They didn't "run out of books". The real accurate truth is they omitted so much material from the books that various storylines were fundamentally altered/shortened and this became more catastrophic as time went on. GRRM even said himself that if the books were adapted more accurately then the show could've easily been 10-12 full seasons
This would’ve been outstanding but you know the show runners depended on GRRM’s work and when they flew past him the show suffered because they’re idiots and GRRM is the genius
Cersei can't really do much about anything going on in the North though. The point in the books of the Harry/Sansa marriage is to get the Vale to fight against the Boltons, but the show doesn't have time for that. He sends her to Winterfell so he can convince Sweetrobin to save her. Considering they didn't have time to introduce Jeyne Poole and Harry the Heir, I kind of understand why they did it. Of course they could have just made the whole series longer lol
Now, why would Littlefinger want Lannisters and Boltons at odds? How does Stannis Baratheon winning at Wintefell helps Littlefinger? Yeah, yeah he thrives at chaos, but he doesn’t just make chaos for chaos
It's also the reason for his downfall in the end. The show basically acknowledges it's a dumbass move yet still has one of the smartest political characters make it.
You made me realize how easy it was to fix this plot line. And also how D&D just didn’t give a shit about my high fantasy HBO show. Thanks for that lol.
If I recall S5 correctly, piting the Lannisters against the Boltons was exactly what he was trying to do. Right after he left Sansa at Winterfell, Littlefinger went straight to Kings Landing to inform Cersei about the marriege. But I agree that it would make a lot more scence if he Sansa spirited away to safty before exposing the marriege to Cersei.
"The Lannisters have never traveled this far North" - Roose Bolton. So what you suggest wouldn't make any sense either. Littlefinger in the show has Harrenhal, The Vale, and Winterfell after Tywin dies. Roose needs assurance that if need be he will have a valuable ally which he does in Baelish who controls the Lord of The Vale. Marrying Sansa off helps him secure The North through blood. Simple. Baelish stretches himself too far in every direction trying to play the game in as many ways as possible and thinking he could manipulate anyone. Cersei doesn't trust him, Olenna doesn't trust him and neither does the Bolton's. And surely Ramsey's child would have married the Lord of the Vale to secure bloodlines (going by the show). Baelish and Varys were spreading too thin for their own ambitions they were always easily discarded the entire time but they reach heights they never thought they would and got over zealous. That was the point.
How did Bealish get the North giving away Sansa to the Boltons? The Boltons got the North,not him. Also sending her away meant that he could not plan to marry her to Robin anymore,in which case he could have controlled the Vale and the North at the same time,since in the show Robin actually survives the war and there is no Harrold Harryng. It made no sense to just give away his best asset
@@niccologregorutti9309 @niccologregorutti9309 There's no point in splitting hairs. Baelish gets the North's ALLIANCE because he delivers Sansa Stark. Roose was weary of rebellion in the show Baelish delivered assurance. That's all. Sansa is valuable but Cersei has the south and therefore has all of Westeros that matters. If Sansa and Robin married then he just has The Vale and maybe the North but only after a civil war takes place to remove the Boltons but they have the larger houses on their sides, Karstark, Umber, Glover, which is why Sansa and Jon have a hard time gathering soldiers even with them both alive. Baelish controls Robin so while it's not a formal control it's more emotional manipulation as he proves with Lord Royce. Baelish doesn't want the North he wants Westeros and while a good asset it rarely does anything south. Which is why he has an alliance with the Tyrells as well. All that's left is the Freys and Martells maybe he could have married one of Oberyns daughters or a Frey girl either. Sansa wasn't the main piece she was just another pawn in his game. But like I said he overreached and in the end lost to people who were born with power. His best asset wasn't Sansa in the South she was hated, the wife of the Imp and killer of a King. She was best North. Petyr's best asset was himself. A High lord in the riverlands. No doubt if he played the game a bit differently he would have been Lord Paramount of the Riverlands and married a Western girl and probably would've had all of Westeros. But like I said he overreached.
@@blerdmari sorry man but I don't agree,there is no reason to believe that he got the North after delivering Sansa to the Boltons,this is even supported by the fact that he literally overthrew the Bolton half a season later. If you were right he should not have helped Jon at the Battle of the Bastards,so the Boltons would have killed him and then regained Sansa,which would have brought back the previous status quo,of when Baelish delivered Sansa the first time
I can see the reasoning with two things here....First, He would put Sansa back into Winterfell, where she would be safe from Sersei, and he could manipulate Ramsey through her and control the North. (This has some holes because Ramsey would DEFINITELY have a reputation. And the fact that Little finger didn't know anything about him was surprising. I could only defend that with the fact that he was a bastard and no one cares about bastards.) Second, this was Little finger doing a "misdirect." He said it himself, that, "if you keep your enemies guessing they will never know your true goals." Not a great play, but that does lead to a third...Little Finger made a mistake. Which just shows how close to the "edge" he always was. He makes one mistake and it ends up getting him killed.
I haven't read the books yet, but it made sense to me once you found out littlefinger was the one who killed John aaryn. He was more obsessed with power than Sansa, and pitting the major houses against each other was the quickest way for him to have a chance at power. And if Sansa married a Bolton, who now had winterfell, littlefinger could use her to manipulate the boltons. And he knew the Northerners would be loyal to Sansa, not the boltons, allowing him to manipulate Sansa and control the north. He was all about power and manipulation
I never minded this part. Littlefinger was hopeless ever since the beginning, he was cunning but always failed to unfold the situation in his favor. The whole point of him doing this felt in the same line.
At this point in the show, Littlefinger lost all leverage with everyone. I was wondering why almost everyone on his contacts lists didn't off him at this point just to be safe.
As someone who hasn't read the book, this made no sense to me and I went online to see what was happening lol that's when I knew the show was going downhill, and people, including book readers, were defending the changes 😬
I personally didn’t understand why they chose to have her married off to the Bolton’s? Out of fans that watch the show they were pretty damn pissed off, knowing who Ramsey is. Another thing that I also want to add is that in the books there’s a girl who’s already gonna marry Ramsey. But she’s not even a stark. In fact, she is a friend of Sansa. She goes by Jeyne Poole who, by the way, was subjugated to so much abuse worse than Sansa. Like she is literally given off as a pretender of arya stark being forced to do so by the Lannister’s after her father and mother, or anyone that was a part of the stark household of service that were slaughtered. By the time it’s their wedding night Ramsey does so much damage to her in the most sickening way, forcing Theon to literally participate in the whole thing while raping a girl. Unlike Sansa, that was willing to try and escape, as well as prepare for death by Ramses lover, Miranda. In the books, she’s literally damaged like brainwashed psychologically, physically even afraid to leave Theon gray joy by that time is struggling to get her out of there. Before they do you manage to escape, and eventually they end up in the hands of Stannis Baratheon, to which she sent to the wall, while Theon is waiting, pending on execution.
It was so disgusting and they waited until the actress was 18 to do this it’s like they were waiting to violate her basically. GOT is the reason why intimacy coordinators are commonplace
Makes perfect sense to me. Sansa gets the North without going to war right away. He had the time to prepare while she was married to him. And if she had a child to him then she could kill him and be regent in his palace. He rule through her and that child. Ramasay could have killed off without going to war. Then he has two powerful kingdoms and closure to take the throne with Sansa for his queen. Sansa been scene as victim as well as the north and people wanting them to rule.
That is what he was trying to do, precisely. He even went as far as to strike a deal with Cersei to deal with whoever won the battle for winterfell and become her warden of the north. But then he got Cersei arrested by giving Olenna Tyrell the intell she needed
Always thought little finger wanted to earn Bolton’s favor at the same time have Kings landing lose the Bolton men because they were outnumbered on all sides. The boltons always thought they were safe because of how far they are.
I always thought he did this because he really believes Stannis would win the Battle for Winterfell. If so Stan is would protect her and name her warden of the north
i don't think he knew that ramsey was an unpredictable sociopath. roose bolton was already taken and Lf never met ramsey til became a lord and got promoted. pretty good bet to get that foothold, marrying a familiar and beloved face. did not count on the escape his perverations and sansa having help.
I always just figured the reason he married Sansa off to Ramsey was because he wanted to destroy the Lannisters and the Boltons by making those two houses war with each other, and then Littlefinger would come swooping in with the Knights of the Vale to pick off the survivors and maybe gain Sansa's favor back by being her rescuer. He figured he would win Sansa back and get rid of the Lannisters and Boltons, and then he would have control over the Vale, the North, and get a little closer to the Iron Throne, which as we know was his endgame all along. This is the only reason I can give to justify what he could have possibly been hoping for when arranging the ridiculous match.
The way I saw it was that Littlefinger wanted Sansa to return to Winterfell, to be proclaimed as who she was and the heir of the Starks ( all being thought dead). Littlefinger knew Ramsay was a monster, but said later that he hadn't known, but learning of it came to rescue her with the Arryn army of the Vale. He waited until the Boltons were weakened having just fought Stannis. I think he fully expected to find a traumatized Sansa overjoyed in Baelish coming to save her from Ramsay. She would be terrified and utterly dependent. Instead she was stronger, angry at him, reunited with Jon who had been named King in the North. Fortunately it will not happen this way in the books. In the books Little finger sent the Boltons Jeyne Poole the daughter of Winterfell's Steward who had been prisoner since Robert's death and had been talked into pretending to be Arya.
I love your content so much! I’ll watch every video you put out. Also my favorite way to troll people for YEARS has been to say “season eight was fine. Why you mad?” 😂❤
She needed to get North. She needed to get away from Littlefinger, and realize he would never love her, or anyone, as much as his own twisted ambitions. She needed to talk to Theon, find out Bran and Rickon weren't dead, Jon was Captain of the NIght's Watch. She needed to meet Brienne, claim her allegience. She needed to see Jon, realize for the first time how much she loved her brother, which is who he really was, no matter who his father was. She needed to claim Winterfell, find her proper place in the world, and her true strength and cunning, so she can be Queen in the North. Yes. In the books it's Jeyne who has to marry Ramsay and be tormented by him. Jeyne is one of many unnecessary characters GRRM dreamed up, who needed to get cut out, if the story was ever to end. She is one of many reasons why the books will never be finished. It was a better story. Simpler, more direct, more emotionally involving than victimizing yet another minor character. If you say rape should never be depicted, you shouldn't be reading these books at all. No, the problem was that people didn't care about Jeyne, she was nobody, so there was no identification with her. Jeyne was just going to be destroyed by Ramsay. Sansa destroyed Ramsay. That's a great finish, leading to one of the best scenes in the entire show--that isn't in the books. Like so many other great scenes in this show. "They're loyal beasts." "They were. Now they're starving." So tired of reading story critiques from people who don't know a good story from a hole in the ground.
I used to think little finger wanted to sit on the throne, but it was much more than that. Since season one him and varice were already threats to the throne and could have taken it easily because of their deep networks. But they didn't because their motives were different varice lived for the people, while little finger wanted everything. Little fingers goal was chaos, to destroy everything that could stop him(literally and make his move)
Littlefingers plan was to marry sansa to the Bolton’s and then tell Cersei so he could rally the knights of the vale and she could send additional troops, after then be named warden of the north and also having his Robin in his pocket
I always thought Little Finger had some sort of dept to pay to the Boltons and this was his way out of it.. Or he thought Sansa could be "parked away" this way to pick up later as was his plan at the Eyrie, not antisipating about what monster Ramsey was...
'Chaos is a ladder'. It was going to be peace after War of 5 kings. When Sansa's identify were revealed to Lords of Vale, Baelish used Sansa Lannister marriage to put Boltans against Queen cersai... 'One House against another'... Unfortunately for Baelish, Ramsey's Sadistic game changed Sansa and when Baelish captured Winterfell in the name of Stark using Vale's Army, end result was fatal for her becos of " 3eyed Raven" and "Girl who z no one "
I still think in the book, whenever GRRM finish it. Sansa will be the ruler of 3 of the 7 Kingdoms. North, Vale and Riverlands. Thanks to Littlefinger. She’ll marry Sweet Robin or whoever is the Vale heir is, and the only surviving adult in the Stark and Tully families
Petyr’s loss in the dual against Brandon Stark is when he realizes, like Tyrion realizes, that his power lies in his mind. And that he’ll use his mind to climb higher than anyone thought possible for him. That he was no longer going to be a pawn for others, but use others as pawns for his own gain.
This is also something the books did different. In the book it was a different northerner girl that they claimed was Sansa. Theon recognized her and knew it wasn't her, but this was after he was emasculated. In his redemption arc he tries to save the girl and the books end without it being clear if they make it to safety. It's been a while since I read it, but I think that's how it was. And I don't think Little finger was behind it at all.
It doesn't make any sense, but the best I can justify it is Baelish sensed the Lannisters' time was limited. There's problems with even that assumption, but that's the only reason I'd see him being so blatant
i thought that littlefinger married sansa off to ramsay so that he could secure his alliance with the boltons, then double cross them and help the queen to beat them, securing his position as warden of the north and (at this point) guardian of the warden of the east. in one fell swoop, he would become the most powerful person in the seven kingdoms
It's crazy how dozens of CZcamsrs can come up with more interesting plots than award winning writers. Even crazier still when you realise they're able to explain these ideas in under a minute.
I think he intended for Sansa to marry into the Bolton family then for all other Bolton family members to strangely die simultaneously; leaving Sansa the legal lady of Winterfell and in complete power (Ramsey does something similar in the books). Granted, that theory for Petyr's plan obviously required him to murder the other Bolton once Sansa is officially married (and before bedding ceremony preferably.)
Brain numbingly bad is the best way to describe season 5. I'm currently rewatching the series, and season 5 has been by far the most excruciating to get through
It could make sense, Little Finger secured the Boltons as his allies, while in the same time causing them to eventually fight against the Lannisters because Tywin would take it as a great insult. With the North in Little Finger's pocket as well as the Vale, plus the Tyrell's after they jointly killed Joffrey, he could rise against the throne, like Robert's Rebellion, and seize it. Also, Little Finger loved Catlyn, so it could be a form of revenge to the Red Wedding.
So I think I understood the marriage to arrange an alliance as well as a manipulation through the chaos which is little fingers MO ( chaos is a ladder) by marrying her off to Ramsey, Littlefinger sphere of influence is now the north by aligning with Roose as well as the Riverlands since his wife is a Frey. He also has an alliance with the Tyrells because of death of Joffrey, and by way of Roose has some influence over the Greyjoy/iron islands because of Theon. The reason he feels compelled to rescue and change the terms is because of Roose Bolton Death. Along with his wife which nullifies that alliance, with the Riverlands. Ramsey had lost Sansa and Theon which left him vulnerable and without bargaining chips. With no one to align with it was only a matter of time so little finger played the hand available. Side note during this time he also was able to pin Joffreys murder on Tyrion which led to Tyrion going to trial ultimately killing Tywin which forced both Tyrion and Varys to flee leaving him as master of the board for a short period of time. If the events didn’t unfold as they did with Jon Snow returning from north of the wall who knows if he would have ended up ruler of the 7 kingdoms eventually
I think little finger knew they Lannister boat was going to sink and he was just trying to grasp on to something or everyone for alliances. “I gave you Sansa so if I need something down the line you owe me “
If I remember correctly after he sends her to the boltens he goes back to kings landing to meet with Cersei and says he will use the vale army to beat the boltens if she names him the warden of the north giving him the north, the vale and I believe the riverlands when he was given harenhal
Its legitimately one of the most baffling decisions because it derailed Sansa’s entire character arc from the past 4 parts and also made Littlefinger look like a complete fool when careful maneuvering has been the thing that got him on top.
Yeah, but they wouldn't be able to show all the abuse porn without Sansa marrying Ramsay, how will she become a 'strong, independent woman' who 'knows how to play the game of thrones' if she isn't raped and assualted?
But seriously speaking, this was the most baffling decision they could make plot wise. They just butchered everyone's character arcs. I stopped watching after season 5 exactly this reason.
To be fair, the last time Littlefinger did anything genuinely smart in the show was when he betrayed Ned. Even his plan to kill Joffrey made no sense and only worked by pure dumb luck. Book Littlefinger also isn't quite the master planner he tries to sell himself as, but at least he's really quick on his feet when it comes to improvising and sensing opportunities. Show Littlefinger is just an idiot who puts up a good show. He reminds me of the villain from Glass Onion, but with the difference that the showrunners genuinely believed they were writing a smart character. GRRM himself has said that he considers show Littlefinger the character furthest removed from his book counterpart.
@sushmitaraodesaraju6330 i actually seriously doubt that was their thinking. I personally believe they only wanted the abuse porn so that they say "look how edgy our material is"
@@callnight1441 Yeah, could be that too. But if the edginess was the only point, they could've stuck to the book plot with Jeyne Poole marrying Ramsay. Or stayed true to Euron Greyjoy's arc in the books. That storyline is full of edgy and actually interesting material. But then D&D would've needed to actually commit to the show and the plot, and I guess that was too much work.
The only reason I say that they wanted to make Sansa a strong female role model was the way they framed the story around her and Arya, like giving them all the major story points and the way they made the other characters talk about them. I love a strong female character, but I absolutely do not condone them destroying every other character's arcs in order to boost up the fan favourites.
Edit: Grammar
@@sushmitaraodesaraju6330yeah in the book Ramsay makes euron “get her ready” with his tongue on their wedding night
This is the exact moment the show went downhill
The exact moment was right after they abandoned the truth of the Tysha storyline. The show died with Tywin.
@@BlackwoodSupremacy For me, the show died when they made Stannis kill her daughter, that made NO sense
Absolutely
@@BlackwoodSupremacy Exatly. Lack of Tysha reveal was a huge issue for the story. Sort of destroyed also Tywin's death scene, because it made no sense that Tyrion was upset that his father called Shae a whore. Why would he freak out about it? :D So I fully agree, show died together with Tywin.
That was the moment season 4 ended. You can already see the downgrade as Martin left the show in season 5. People start doing retarded things. There's less attention to detail. Decisions dont make much sense. Thigns happen because the script demands it.
As usual, the books made this plot line a thousand times better.
In the books, Littlefinger actually intends to marry a disguised Sansa off to Robert Arryns heir, Harrold Hardyng, then he plans to have his ‘beloved nephew’ meet with a little accident, so that Sansa’s new husband would become the new Lord of the Eyrie, meaning Littlefinger would effectively become the Lord Paramount of the Vale through his control over Sansa.
Not only that, but since Sansa is a Stark through her father and a Tully through her mother and technically a Lannister because of her marriage to Tyrion, Littlefinger could potentially gain control of not just the Vale, but the North, the Riverlands and even the Westerlands.
Therefore, in the books, Littlefinger plans to essentially acquire the loyalty of FOUR of the Seven Kingdoms JUST through Sansa’s marriage alone.
Meanwhile, in the show, he had her marry the Boltons with nothing to gain and basically everything to lose.
She's the heir to robbs kingdom
@@uwe4999 No, the heir to Robert Arryn is Harrold Hardyng. Why would Sansa be his heir? Not only is she a woman, she also has no legitimate connection to the Vale except through her aunt.
@@AlexanderTheBloodraven I think the above poster meant Robb Stark, but for the vale, the same reason Lysa ruled as Regent after Jon Aryns death. Marriage to Harry the Heir rallies the lords of the vale to her cause, one child later she becomes the Regent should anything happen to Harry.
@@Conman101But, even so, it is clearly explicitly stated Jon is Robb’s heir in the books.
@@x-omnistar-x9602 but sansa has a stronger claim to the north if robb starks will is not revealed
Season 4 was the last good season and I will die on this hill
What are talking about? Season 4 was the last season.
I agree that the show went downhill after S4. However, the Sept of Baelor's explosion in S6 was one of the best moments in the show.
@@TheJosmanI somewhat agree.
It was cool but could've been much better if there were actual consequences for Cersei and the peasents in King's Landing didn't just forget about it completely.
@@wasso9951 I agree, however, both the fact that no one seemed to care about the Sept's destruction and Cersei's out-of-character reaction towards Tommen's death were season 7's fault.
If Season 7 had 10 well-written episodes i can see them showing the peasants' reaction and the consequences the Sept's destruction had for Cersei.
In my opinion, Cersei should've become the mad queen after Tommen's death. She'd have been an amazing villain, but instead we had Cersei staring at the window for two seasons and Daenerys becoming the mad queen out of nowhere.
@@TheJosmanAlthough the explosion was cool, that’s not Cersei. Cersei never ever made any show of power that spectacular. She was always subtle. It was really out of character for Cersei to blow up and basically make every people in King’s Landing hate her. Cersei is smart enough to know that blowing up your entire competition to the throne is going to get you killed. One of the best example of Cersei’s power play is in season 1. She crowned Joffrey immediately after Robert’s death. That was subtle because she already establish to the people that Joffrey is the heir and if anyone challenges, that’s a rebellion. She knew Ned will challenge her so she had Ned as a traitor. This is the subtle thing she does. She doesn’t display her sadistic attitude towards the world. Blowing up the Sept was pretty cool but it was so out of character that the show runners didn’t understand what to do with Cersei afterwards. They didn’t understand Cersei even after 6 seasons of writing her screenplay.
Not to mention Sansa is also a Tully, and would have been instrumental in getting the Riverlands to side with the Eyrie if she publicly revealed herself... She's also at the point the heir to Winterfell so Littlefinger and Sansa could have also easily shook the Boltons off their power by getting the other Northern lords to rebel since practically most of the houses hated them.
Season 5 is the tragic downfall in to a pit of stupidity and nonsense to what was once the greatest show on television.
THANK YOU. Everyone says that only season 7 ans 8 were bad, but in my opinion they started going back ever since the decisions of Dumb & Dumber became more prevalent over the original story (especially after the original story ended bexause the book have yet to be completed). Season 5 is already filled with bs, but it's almost bearable. Season 6 is flat-out bad. Season 7 is a pile of steaming garbage. And Season 8... we don't talk about Season 8. Season 8 never existed, as far as I'm concerned.
That storyline was so awful...I don't understand, how the writers came up with it, honestly. Like...random people off the street have better ideas. *shakes head*
@@raraavis7782no
@@sengoku1846
No what?
@@raraavis7782they gave Jane pools story ro snasa in the show in the books Jane was snasa friend and disappeared after book 1 to come back in 5 and she's made to marry ramsay and they say she's Arya even tho she's not
The plot you explained sounds way more like something Littlefinger would do than how it played out in the show
I said the same thing!
Littlefinger clearly wanted to marry sansa himself
Unfortunately the show took its own turn
Yeah and they did absolutely nothing with that info lol
Yes I would love to be littlefinger and marry Sansa hahaha
@@MrMannyhw
She was a child at the time.
@@legion4902ready to bleed ready to breed.
Honestly the biggest disservice this plot did was to Sansa. Years of subtle growth and development that chipped away at her innocence and honour until she was finally ready to start playing the game and it all gets flushed down the drain in favour of “I got r***d so now I’m badass and ruthless and don’t need to grow at all for the next 3 seasons.”
yh if there gojng to do that they needed her to grow after killing ramsey which she kind of did but maybe not enough
The single worst change from novels to show. It wasn't just terribly written and trite torture porn, but also just a horrendously stupid move from a character who is supposed to be one of the smartest players of the game of thrones.
Feels like on par with book Robb being full on honor and show Robb being full on hunting pussy....
Plus forcing a character who has suffered so much to face more for absolutely no reason is just tasteless.
Some of the changes genuinely made me raise my eyebrow at the D and D bros, because it comes off as genuinely disconcerting.
@@stingerjohnny9951It's just their lack of ability to come up with good ideas. It's also clear they didn't care too much about the books or else they would have followed them closer
@@MrFredstt I don’t think it’s that they didn’t care about the books, they just got complacent and lazy, all the while rushing towards the end for a Star Wars spin off that went nowhere. And that is now their legacy.
Karmas a bitch huh? 🤣
The problem is that they haven’t introduced Sansa‘s best friend Jeyne Pool who gets wed to Ramsay in the books as a fake Arya and gets tortured and abused like Sansa in the show (even worse tbh). This plotline is essential to Theon and Ramsay as well as Stannis and Jon (the latter two are trying to rescue her so Stannis gains Northern support). As they were unable to do the same as in the books but also couldn’t omit the storyline completely they decided to sacrifice Littlefinger and Sansa for it to work
The way you panned it out sounds a whole lot better than what we got. It felt sexist of the writers to give Sansa the rape arc, and then use it as a pathway for character development. Contrary to popular belief, rape does not make a woman go from a poor, sad little thing to a badass b*tch.
More like rape is humbling enough to make a girl go from "bossbitch" to a poor, sad little thing.
Reminds me a lot of I spit on your grave
How's it sexist though? People getting raped on television has been depicted a number of times and depending on the CHARACTER they deal with the emotional trauma in different ways
I'm not sure you understand what sexism is.
Because everybody knows just having a vagina makes you a badass. Hey stop being antisemitic. The writers are 2 Jews and they have more victimhood points then your vagina.
And that's why cutting all the side characters and side stories worked AGAINST the show writers.
They wanted to include the Boltons marrying "Arya", but they couldn't do it as it was written so we got the Sansa arc no one asked for or wanted
Sansa desperately need this thou
@@TheKingTywinLannister …why?
Yeah, probably.
One of if not the smartest schemer in all of Westeros does something this dumb ? Then is dumb the rest of the show . They ruined littlefinger from this point onward .
Littlefinger either will try to marry Sansa himself in the books or more than likely continue with his plan to marry her to the heir of the Vale as a way to secure the Vale for himself
Littlefinger could have also used Sansa to get the vale to fight off the Freys and Boltons to claim both for Sansa. As she is half Stark, half Tully.
@@philippeblais8594 Well, no, the Tully's have no claim to the Vale. Lysa is regent because she is the mother of the heir, but the succession is strictly through the heir, it doesn't revert to Tully's.
@@torinju I know that. And Littlefinger planned on securing the Vale by marrying Sansa to Harold Hardyng. Making her the new lady of the Vale when Robin Arryn dies.
@@philippeblais8594 Well, we don't ACTUALLY know that. Its what Littlefinger tells Sansa, but he isn't exactly the most reliable guy in the world.
Its not exactly the best of all plans anyhow, at least from what we know so far. There is every possibility that Harold would totally ignore whatever Sansa said once he became Lord.
Though I suppose that might be why Littlefinger is teaching her to play the game. So she would be able to take power in the Vale, behind the scenes.
Everyone got dumber and they still won. The Knight king got smarter and somehow still lost.
I honestly believe the only reason they did it was to throw in some abuse p*rn
And good it was
That's sick
It's pretty clear D&D saw Sansa as a vehicle for "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" with a side of "Remember, kids, even if you were upper crust, if you had a vagina your life sucked."
@@TheKingTywinLannisteramen
@@stefaniekasal8620dont kinkshame
It's at this point you realise that everything after season 5 doesn't make sense
After s4*
The problem is that they speedran everything up to S5, so by the time they got there there was so little 3 dimensionality in each character that without bulky novel material to directly adapt from the writers no longer had a context appropriate touchstone from which to write the characters in new situations without making them seem like increasingly brainless cardboard cut outs produced by lackluster screenwriters.
Giving more time/episodes to each season would have helped this sooo much.
It was clear after season 1 that they had a hit on their hands, at that point they should have made each season a 2 parter.
The showrunners intentionally sabotaged the latter seasons to try and rush the show so they could get Disney contracts for the last 2 starwars movies. Disney noticed and decided to black list them for what they did.
Karma!
And yet Disney still sucks
As bad as disneys star wars movies were, sure they didnt get hired ?
One of Disney’s few smart decisions. Especially since S8 was so bad that it took one of the most popular shows in history and turned the entire fan base against it overnight to the point where conversations and merchandise sales plummeted almost immediately
What I still don’t understand is how we’re supposed to ignore the fact that she’s already married! You can’t just marry someone else, right?
In the books was stated that since sansa and tyrion's marriage wasn't consumated it could be annulled
@@raulyfenaseniorbut she’s accused of killing the king with Tyrion who would annull it for her
any septon could do the annulment they don't need a kings permission. So as long as they had a septon willing at the Vale or anywhere friendly then they absolutely could get the annulment
@@RequiemSolthis is not true. annulments are very rare and not any septon can grant one, especially without the consent of one or both parties in the marriage.
@@RequiemSolonly the High Septon can annul noble marriages
If Lannisters and Boltons ended up destroying each other, then Stannis could conquer the North and then the throne. Which is something Baelish wouldn't want since he knows Stannis would execute him
Stannis didn’t have the men to directly take the throne from the north
@@wolflaf911 Assuming he'd gather a larger army in North after the defeat of Boltons
You wish 😂
@@TheKingTywinLannister Sounds like you're underestimating Stannis. Along with Randyll Tarly, Stannis Baratheon is the best commander and military strategist in the whole Westeros.
That’s actually a good point! It wouldn’t benefit Littlefinger for Stannis to come out on top.
I think Baelish intended for her to undermine the Boltons, and counted on the North's loyalty to the Stark name. After the defeat of the Bolton's, he expected her to rule the North, then marry her himself. He was quite visibly taken aback by Jon being named King in the North. I think he was also counting on her former naivety, and that she'd accept his claim that he didn't know Ramsay was a monster. Unfortunately for him, she finally started to smarten up by then
Honestly, it would've been cool to see Sansa slowly become a rallying cry for people like Wyman Manderly as the Boltons regime slowly fell apart.
Once Bran came back, his plan is ruined though. There are places in Westeros where the eldest child could become the ruler regardless of sex, the the North wasn't one of them.
The thing that makes the most sense is to stick with the Jayne Poole storyline in the books.
Don’t put more thought into a show than the Writers did mate, all you’ll get is a headache.
@@torinju yh but that still work as he thinks bran is dead and so bran coming back can mark the downfall of the schemer that is little finger bran can tell sansa all the things littlefinger schemed about and then sansa then uses this to take control of littlefinger
I think the show runners, Dumb and Dumber, needed a reason to have the episode BOTB. Also to further demonstrate that Sansa was a strong, savvy young woman capable of strategic planning and revenge.
He fast travels to King's Landing and tells Cersei about it and asks to be Warden of the North when he's already Lord of the Vale
Thank you for pointing this out.
This is the main characteristic & justification that verifies why D&D should never be allowed to write anything again.
It is a outright insult and obvious display of contempt of the audience.
The death of the Tyrells also was nonsense... Seriously, the Reach would have marched their armies to kibglanding and castarley rock together with Dorne and The Stormlands and even Riverrun... They all hate Cersei, not to mention the common folk aswell... They all hated Cersei and alot of them loved Margaery... Like what the???
man, at this point your videos has convinced me to read the books.
I think Little Finger had no clue of the damage he was doing by marrying off Sansa. He greatly underestimated the Boltons. He also thought Sansa was ready to be just like Lady Margery and be able to manipulate the Boltons. So many errors.
Littlefinger had a network of spies, comparable to that one of Varys.
Yeah it's something i've been wondering ever since i've watched the show. The only explaination i came up with is that too many people were aware Sansa was in the Vale, littlefinger was scared lannister' spies would find out so he decided to give her to the Boltons. In order to turn them against each other without anyone knowing he was to blame for her returning home.
Little Finger is a risk taking schemer, sometimes they pan out and sometimes they don’t. In this case Sansa would have been back in her home and Little Finger would have had the good will of the senior Bolton who controlled the North. All of this would have helped Little Finger get closer to achieving his ultimate endgame. Where the scheme went wrong was the secret fact (even for spies) that the junior Bolton was an intelligent and cunning psychopath. Even after that Little Finger managed to regain Sansa’s trust and good will, in till his scheme to turn sisters against each other led to his deserved demise.
He wouldn't be so risky, to marry Sansa off to Ramsay, without knowing a heckton about him.
@@matthiasschuster9505 like I said, the fact was secret.
they did this to have sansa get raped (add unnecessary shock value) and then in s8 have her say "im glad i was raped because i would've been the same person anyway"
Yes contrary to what the writers think SA doesn’t just make a someone a badass genius
It wasn’t rape. They were married and making love. It was beautiful. Even Bran said so.
@@TheKingTywinLannister bro you keep being weird in all these comments
@@albibarry2999 seems weird only to commoners 😆
Ah yes, the "just don't think about it" seasons 😅
I may be in the minority here but the show kind of made sense when it came to that.
Littlefinger married Sansa off to the Boltons because he wanted Cersei to overreact. He knew that the Lannisters would see this as a betrayal but they couldn't act on it because they were still reeling from the War of the Five Kings and Tywin's death.
He manipulated Cersei into allowing him to use the Vale's forces to seize the North from the Boltons-thus granting him control of the Vale and the North. If Roose Bolton tried to tell Cersei that the marriage was Littlefinger's idea the odds of her believing Roose would be slim-he's already betrayed one king and is betraying another, his word is not reliable. Even still, Cersei would not have the forces to fight Littlefinger because he would already have control of the North and the Vale.
However, he miscalculated Ramsey's mistreatment of Sansa and Jon's rise to power.
One of the earlier inexplicable decisions. Asides from the power a marriage to the heir to the Vale would bring, Littlefinger also wouldnt part so easily with his last living link to Cat and it's clear he's also falling for Sansa. Littlefinger will shaft anyone bar Cat and with her gone (Lady Stoneheart aside) in the books he's not going to cast aside her daughter, who bears a good resemblance to her.
Ransay marries Jayne Poole as Arya Stark in the books as well so the show is even more off the mark.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think his plan was (tv series not book series) to make sure Sansa would be guardian of the North, then let Stannis or Lannisters finish off the Boltons and finally marrying Sansa who now “inherited” the North
But why wouldn't he wait till the Boltons are beaten, and then return her heroically.
Little finger was a moron in the show after they ran out of books season 5-8 is mind numbingly dumb…his trial and death cause of the bran 9000 robot is stupid
They didn't "run out of books". The real accurate truth is they omitted so much material from the books that various storylines were fundamentally altered/shortened and this became more catastrophic as time went on.
GRRM even said himself that if the books were adapted more accurately then the show could've easily been 10-12 full seasons
He must have caught the same disease that Varys and Tyrion caught.
Sansa's story in the Vale makes so much more sense. I can't believe how they treated Littlefinger in the show, he was a complete idiot 😂
It's amazing and sad how you were able to easily think of a much more logical and interesting scenario than two award-winning screenwriters could.
how is it more interesting when the only change is that Sansa leaves instead of staying?
This would’ve been outstanding but you know the show runners depended on GRRM’s work and when they flew past him the show suffered because they’re idiots and GRRM is the genius
Cersei can't really do much about anything going on in the North though. The point in the books of the Harry/Sansa marriage is to get the Vale to fight against the Boltons, but the show doesn't have time for that. He sends her to Winterfell so he can convince Sweetrobin to save her. Considering they didn't have time to introduce Jeyne Poole and Harry the Heir, I kind of understand why they did it. Of course they could have just made the whole series longer lol
"Time is not something you have, time is something you take"
Now, why would Littlefinger want Lannisters and Boltons at odds? How does Stannis Baratheon winning at Wintefell helps Littlefinger? Yeah, yeah he thrives at chaos, but he doesn’t just make chaos for chaos
Maybe he think the Bolton would be too strong to fight off on his own
Marriage is by default a public event. People need to know that the two are joined in marriage or else their children will be seen as bastards.
By secretly he means that litlefinger would try to seem that had nothing to do with him.
@@jankasolis61 I stand corrected. Thanks for the reply
@@jankasolis61he literally did in the show tho
It's also the reason for his downfall in the end. The show basically acknowledges it's a dumbass move yet still has one of the smartest political characters make it.
You made me realize how easy it was to fix this plot line. And also how D&D just didn’t give a shit about my high fantasy HBO show. Thanks for that lol.
If I recall S5 correctly, piting the Lannisters against the Boltons was exactly what he was trying to do. Right after he left Sansa at Winterfell, Littlefinger went straight to Kings Landing to inform Cersei about the marriege. But I agree that it would make a lot more scence if he Sansa spirited away to safty before exposing the marriege to Cersei.
I always thought that was a strange move by Littlefinger. It felt like it was done just so we could see Sansa be tortured.
"The Lannisters have never traveled this far North" - Roose Bolton. So what you suggest wouldn't make any sense either. Littlefinger in the show has Harrenhal, The Vale, and Winterfell after Tywin dies. Roose needs assurance that if need be he will have a valuable ally which he does in Baelish who controls the Lord of The Vale. Marrying Sansa off helps him secure The North through blood. Simple. Baelish stretches himself too far in every direction trying to play the game in as many ways as possible and thinking he could manipulate anyone. Cersei doesn't trust him, Olenna doesn't trust him and neither does the Bolton's. And surely Ramsey's child would have married the Lord of the Vale to secure bloodlines (going by the show). Baelish and Varys were spreading too thin for their own ambitions they were always easily discarded the entire time but they reach heights they never thought they would and got over zealous. That was the point.
How did Bealish get the North giving away Sansa to the Boltons? The Boltons got the North,not him. Also sending her away meant that he could not plan to marry her to Robin anymore,in which case he could have controlled the Vale and the North at the same time,since in the show Robin actually survives the war and there is no Harrold Harryng. It made no sense to just give away his best asset
@@niccologregorutti9309 @niccologregorutti9309 There's no point in splitting hairs. Baelish gets the North's ALLIANCE because he delivers Sansa Stark. Roose was weary of rebellion in the show Baelish delivered assurance. That's all. Sansa is valuable but Cersei has the south and therefore has all of Westeros that matters. If Sansa and Robin married then he just has The Vale and maybe the North but only after a civil war takes place to remove the Boltons but they have the larger houses on their sides, Karstark, Umber, Glover, which is why Sansa and Jon have a hard time gathering soldiers even with them both alive. Baelish controls Robin so while it's not a formal control it's more emotional manipulation as he proves with Lord Royce. Baelish doesn't want the North he wants Westeros and while a good asset it rarely does anything south. Which is why he has an alliance with the Tyrells as well. All that's left is the Freys and Martells maybe he could have married one of Oberyns daughters or a Frey girl either. Sansa wasn't the main piece she was just another pawn in his game. But like I said he overreached and in the end lost to people who were born with power. His best asset wasn't Sansa in the South she was hated, the wife of the Imp and killer of a King. She was best North. Petyr's best asset was himself. A High lord in the riverlands. No doubt if he played the game a bit differently he would have been Lord Paramount of the Riverlands and married a Western girl and probably would've had all of Westeros. But like I said he overreached.
@@blerdmari sorry man but I don't agree,there is no reason to believe that he got the North after delivering Sansa to the Boltons,this is even supported by the fact that he literally overthrew the Bolton half a season later. If you were right he should not have helped Jon at the Battle of the Bastards,so the Boltons would have killed him and then regained Sansa,which would have brought back the previous status quo,of when Baelish delivered Sansa the first time
The thing that makes the most sense is to stick with the Jayne Pool storyline in the books.
@@fightsports66to be honest that storyline is butt 😂😂😂
It happened just so we could have Battle of the Bastards
But then it still wouldn't explain why Sansa would go along with his plan? 🤔
I can see the reasoning with two things here....First, He would put Sansa back into Winterfell, where she would be safe from Sersei, and he could manipulate Ramsey through her and control the North. (This has some holes because Ramsey would DEFINITELY have a reputation. And the fact that Little finger didn't know anything about him was surprising. I could only defend that with the fact that he was a bastard and no one cares about bastards.) Second, this was Little finger doing a "misdirect." He said it himself, that, "if you keep your enemies guessing they will never know your true goals." Not a great play, but that does lead to a third...Little Finger made a mistake. Which just shows how close to the "edge" he always was. He makes one mistake and it ends up getting him killed.
I haven't read the books yet, but it made sense to me once you found out littlefinger was the one who killed John aaryn. He was more obsessed with power than Sansa, and pitting the major houses against each other was the quickest way for him to have a chance at power. And if Sansa married a Bolton, who now had winterfell, littlefinger could use her to manipulate the boltons. And he knew the Northerners would be loyal to Sansa, not the boltons, allowing him to manipulate Sansa and control the north. He was all about power and manipulation
The boltons get Arya to marry ramsey in the books not sansa
I never minded this part. Littlefinger was hopeless ever since the beginning, he was cunning but always failed to unfold the situation in his favor. The whole point of him doing this felt in the same line.
Like they were just finding a way to connect the characters for no reason other than another plot.
That first image is jarring
Super jarring. I was looking to see if anyone agreed, it seemed just overtly creepy and sexual for no reason.
Showing that dwarf when he said brain numbingly bad 😂
At this point in the show, Littlefinger lost all leverage with everyone. I was wondering why almost everyone on his contacts lists didn't off him at this point just to be safe.
Well you are forgetting the other part of Littlefinger’s plan that involved sending Lancel to the High Septon. That kept Cersei otherwise engaged.
And that made no sense too. How does Baelish send Lancel to the High Septon? Lancel is already one of them
@@davidlewis5312 but did Lancel spill the beans on what he and Cersei were up to at that point. Clearly not.
It makes less sense because in the books he was trying to poison Tyrion so he could marry Sansa
As someone who hasn't read the book, this made no sense to me and I went online to see what was happening lol that's when I knew the show was going downhill, and people, including book readers, were defending the changes 😬
I personally didn’t understand why they chose to have her married off to the Bolton’s? Out of fans that watch the show they were pretty damn pissed off, knowing who Ramsey is. Another thing that I also want to add is that in the books there’s a girl who’s already gonna marry Ramsey. But she’s not even a stark. In fact, she is a friend of Sansa. She goes by Jeyne Poole who, by the way, was subjugated to so much abuse worse than Sansa. Like she is literally given off as a pretender of arya stark being forced to do so by the Lannister’s after her father and mother, or anyone that was a part of the stark household of service that were slaughtered. By the time it’s their wedding night Ramsey does so much damage to her in the most sickening way, forcing Theon to literally participate in the whole thing while raping a girl. Unlike Sansa, that was willing to try and escape, as well as prepare for death by Ramses lover, Miranda. In the books, she’s literally damaged like brainwashed psychologically, physically even afraid to leave Theon gray joy by that time is struggling to get her out of there. Before they do you manage to escape, and eventually they end up in the hands of Stannis Baratheon, to which she sent to the wall, while Theon is waiting, pending on execution.
Please we need a remake from season 5 upwards where you write the script
wtf is with the first picture?
Thank God I wasn’t the only one to think this. That first picture feels really creepy!
It was so disgusting and they waited until the actress was 18 to do this it’s like they were waiting to violate her basically. GOT is the reason why intimacy coordinators are commonplace
Makes perfect sense to me. Sansa gets the North without going to war right away. He had the time to prepare while she was married to him. And if she had a child to him then she could kill him and be regent in his palace. He rule through her and that child. Ramasay could have killed off without going to war. Then he has two powerful kingdoms and closure to take the throne with Sansa for his queen. Sansa been scene as victim as well as the north and people wanting them to rule.
That first pic tho😤
Right?
There was comment earlier that said "That is absolutely one stacked teenager!"
I think it got removed🪦
@@browniebearI agree with that comment
They did that in the show for shock effect. It was just bad tv.
That is what he was trying to do, precisely. He even went as far as to strike a deal with Cersei to deal with whoever won the battle for winterfell and become her warden of the north. But then he got Cersei arrested by giving Olenna Tyrell the intell she needed
Littlefinger said Cat 2.0 let’s go!
Why would he marry Sansa to Ramsey in the first place?
Sansa needed some touch love
I’m n the show little makes sense, D and D were horrible writers
Always thought little finger wanted to earn Bolton’s favor at the same time have Kings landing lose the Bolton men because they were outnumbered on all sides. The boltons always thought they were safe because of how far they are.
I always thought he did this because he really believes Stannis would win the Battle for Winterfell. If so Stan is would protect her and name her warden of the north
czcams.com/video/UTuaonjAULo/video.html
In this clip it is shown how Cersei make the little finger protector of the North as a result of his plan.
i don't think he knew that ramsey was an unpredictable sociopath. roose bolton was already taken and Lf never met ramsey til became a lord and got promoted. pretty good bet to get that foothold, marrying a familiar and beloved face. did not count on the escape his perverations and sansa having help.
I always just figured the reason he married Sansa off to Ramsey was because he wanted to destroy the Lannisters and the Boltons by making those two houses war with each other, and then Littlefinger would come swooping in with the Knights of the Vale to pick off the survivors and maybe gain Sansa's favor back by being her rescuer. He figured he would win Sansa back and get rid of the Lannisters and Boltons, and then he would have control over the Vale, the North, and get a little closer to the Iron Throne, which as we know was his endgame all along.
This is the only reason I can give to justify what he could have possibly been hoping for when arranging the ridiculous match.
The way I saw it was that Littlefinger wanted Sansa to return to Winterfell, to be proclaimed as who she was and the heir of the Starks ( all being thought dead). Littlefinger knew Ramsay was a monster, but said later that he hadn't known, but learning of it came to rescue her with the Arryn army of the Vale. He waited until the Boltons were weakened having just fought Stannis. I think he fully expected to find a traumatized Sansa overjoyed in Baelish coming to save her from Ramsay. She would be terrified and utterly dependent. Instead she was stronger, angry at him, reunited with Jon who had been named King in the North. Fortunately it will not happen this way in the books. In the books Little finger sent the Boltons Jeyne Poole the daughter of Winterfell's Steward who had been prisoner since Robert's death and had been talked into pretending to be Arya.
I love your content so much! I’ll watch every video you put out. Also my favorite way to troll people for YEARS has been to say “season eight was fine. Why you mad?” 😂❤
She needed to get North. She needed to get away from Littlefinger, and realize he would never love her, or anyone, as much as his own twisted ambitions. She needed to talk to Theon, find out Bran and Rickon weren't dead, Jon was Captain of the NIght's Watch. She needed to meet Brienne, claim her allegience. She needed to see Jon, realize for the first time how much she loved her brother, which is who he really was, no matter who his father was. She needed to claim Winterfell, find her proper place in the world, and her true strength and cunning, so she can be Queen in the North.
Yes. In the books it's Jeyne who has to marry Ramsay and be tormented by him. Jeyne is one of many unnecessary characters GRRM dreamed up, who needed to get cut out, if the story was ever to end. She is one of many reasons why the books will never be finished.
It was a better story. Simpler, more direct, more emotionally involving than victimizing yet another minor character. If you say rape should never be depicted, you shouldn't be reading these books at all. No, the problem was that people didn't care about Jeyne, she was nobody, so there was no identification with her. Jeyne was just going to be destroyed by Ramsay. Sansa destroyed Ramsay. That's a great finish, leading to one of the best scenes in the entire show--that isn't in the books. Like so many other great scenes in this show. "They're loyal beasts." "They were. Now they're starving."
So tired of reading story critiques from people who don't know a good story from a hole in the ground.
PREACH!! 🙏
I used to think little finger wanted to sit on the throne, but it was much more than that. Since season one him and varice were already threats to the throne and could have taken it easily because of their deep networks. But they didn't because their motives were different varice lived for the people, while little finger wanted everything. Little fingers goal was chaos, to destroy everything that could stop him(literally and make his move)
He knows always one Stark has to be in winterfell and he was preparing Vale to attack.
Littlefingers plan was to marry sansa to the Bolton’s and then tell Cersei so he could rally the knights of the vale and she could send additional troops, after then be named warden of the north and also having his Robin in his pocket
Damn...There was so much going on in the show, I didn't even realise Big Toe's Decision to marry Sansa off was pointless
I always thought Little Finger had some sort of dept to pay to the Boltons and this was his way out of it.. Or he thought Sansa could be "parked away" this way to pick up later as was his plan at the Eyrie, not antisipating about what monster Ramsey was...
'Chaos is a ladder'. It was going to be peace after War of 5 kings.
When Sansa's identify were revealed to Lords of Vale, Baelish used Sansa Lannister marriage to put Boltans against Queen cersai...
'One House against another'...
Unfortunately for Baelish, Ramsey's Sadistic game changed Sansa and when Baelish captured Winterfell in the name of Stark using Vale's Army, end result was fatal for her becos of " 3eyed Raven" and "Girl who z no one "
I still think in the book, whenever GRRM finish it. Sansa will be the ruler of 3 of the 7 Kingdoms. North, Vale and Riverlands. Thanks to Littlefinger. She’ll marry Sweet Robin or whoever is the Vale heir is, and the only surviving adult in the Stark and Tully families
Petyr’s loss in the dual against Brandon Stark is when he realizes, like Tyrion realizes, that his power lies in his mind. And that he’ll use his mind to climb higher than anyone thought possible for him. That he was no longer going to be a pawn for others, but use others as pawns for his own gain.
Finally somebody else is saying it.
That shyte made zero sense at all.
D&D should jailed for this.
This is also something the books did different. In the book it was a different northerner girl that they claimed was Sansa. Theon recognized her and knew it wasn't her, but this was after he was emasculated. In his redemption arc he tries to save the girl and the books end without it being clear if they make it to safety. It's been a while since I read it, but I think that's how it was. And I don't think Little finger was behind it at all.
"There must always be a Stark at Winterfell."
"The North Remembers."
Little Finger did right.
Because Littlefinger lost all intelligence by the end 😂
It doesn't make any sense, but the best I can justify it is Baelish sensed the Lannisters' time was limited. There's problems with even that assumption, but that's the only reason I'd see him being so blatant
i thought that littlefinger married sansa off to ramsay so that he could secure his alliance with the boltons, then double cross them and help the queen to beat them, securing his position as warden of the north and (at this point) guardian of the warden of the east. in one fell swoop, he would become the most powerful person in the seven kingdoms
It's crazy how dozens of CZcamsrs can come up with more interesting plots than award winning writers. Even crazier still when you realise they're able to explain these ideas in under a minute.
Agree; it was also much better to establish Theon’s heroic turn for him to save Sansa’s nobody friend than Sansa herself.
I think he intended for Sansa to marry into the Bolton family then for all other Bolton family members to strangely die simultaneously; leaving Sansa the legal lady of Winterfell and in complete power (Ramsey does something similar in the books). Granted, that theory for Petyr's plan obviously required him to murder the other Bolton once Sansa is officially married (and before bedding ceremony preferably.)
Brain numbingly bad is the best way to describe season 5. I'm currently rewatching the series, and season 5 has been by far the most excruciating to get through
It could make sense, Little Finger secured the Boltons as his allies, while in the same time causing them to eventually fight against the Lannisters because Tywin would take it as a great insult.
With the North in Little Finger's pocket as well as the Vale, plus the Tyrell's after they jointly killed Joffrey, he could rise against the throne, like Robert's Rebellion, and seize it.
Also, Little Finger loved Catlyn, so it could be a form of revenge to the Red Wedding.
So I think I understood the marriage to arrange an alliance as well as a manipulation through the chaos which is little fingers MO ( chaos is a ladder) by marrying her off to Ramsey, Littlefinger sphere of influence is now the north by aligning with Roose as well as the Riverlands since his wife is a Frey. He also has an alliance with the Tyrells because of death of Joffrey, and by way of Roose has some influence over the Greyjoy/iron islands because of Theon. The reason he feels compelled to rescue and change the terms is because of Roose Bolton Death. Along with his wife which nullifies that alliance, with the Riverlands. Ramsey had lost Sansa and Theon which left him vulnerable and without bargaining chips. With no one to align with it was only a matter of time so little finger played the hand available. Side note during this time he also was able to pin Joffreys murder on Tyrion which led to Tyrion going to trial ultimately killing Tywin which forced both Tyrion and Varys to flee leaving him as master of the board for a short period of time. If the events didn’t unfold as they did with Jon Snow returning from north of the wall who knows if he would have ended up ruler of the 7 kingdoms eventually
Never thought about that, but yeah what was the reason, I can't think of one
I think little finger knew they Lannister boat was going to sink and he was just trying to grasp on to something or everyone for alliances. “I gave you Sansa so if I need something down the line you owe me “
If I remember correctly after he sends her to the boltens he goes back to kings landing to meet with Cersei and says he will use the vale army to beat the boltens if she names him the warden of the north giving him the north, the vale and I believe the riverlands when he was given harenhal
I think He is subconsciously finding it pleasurable knowing Cat's offsprings are suffering.
yeah if we are going by that perspective then it sort of makes sense
The way literally every fan rewrite works better than what D&D came up with
Yeah, I always wondered what his plan there was. He didn't seem to be the guy who did something without getting something