@Gary Pollard "The only thing found to be wrong with Dancing Brave afterwards was an eye injury thought to have been caused by kickback from where the turf course crosses the dirt track, but what that contributed to his performance, if anything, was impossible to say. He’d had a long season, and what was certain was that he didn’t give his true running". That obviously did not help but probably what beat the horse was dehydration, the amount of weight lost in the time it was over in America and it being a relatively new thing at the time for GB trainers to take their horses to the meeting. These days there is very little time from coming off the plane to the actual race. Yet back then it was thought horses needed time to acclimatise, which was probably true but they did not really know for how long and Dancing Brave had two weeks and had lost that weight. The accepted thinking now seems to be around four weeks to acclimatise or a smash and grab style visit, where there is little time between the flight and the race itself.
And he lost 15lb stuck in quarantine.. Can't help thinking it was loaded in the US horses favour.. But Manilla was a Great Horse too.. And Dancing Braves Half Brother..
Dancing Brave's trainer talking about Enable's chances at the Breeders' Cup. "Dancing Brave had done a long season and when one looks back there were just the signs he was probably going past his best and he got very dehydrated in California. "In those days we didn't realise that the best way to do it was to race them off the plane. We had him out there for a while. "He never got over the dehydration, so he never got back to his best racing weight. It was one of those things. "I'd have thought Enable would have a great chance. I think she should enjoy the ground and she is drawn two, which is good. "It will be wonderful to watch."
This race was always a huge risk for DB, after a long season. The slow pace, the round and round track, it was set for defeat all the way. I remember manila trainer , slagging off dancing brave afterwards, guy Harwood would have been a gentleman if it had been other way round tho ....
Manila: (1983 - February 28, 2008) * Sire: Lyphard * Grandsire: Northern Dancer * Dam: Dona Ysidra * Damsire: Le Fabuleux * Sex: Stallion * Breeder: Eduardo Cojuangco Jr. * Owners: Eduardo Cojuangco Jr. & Bradley M. Shannon * Trainer: LeRoy Jolley (R.I.P.) * Jockeys: Fernando Toro Jacinto Vasquez Jose Santos Angel Cordero Jr. * 18 Starts * 12 Wins * 5 Seconds * U.S.$ 2,692,799 earned (Current $6,347,548) * 1987 American Champion Male Turf Horse * Inducted to The National Museum of Racing and Hall of Fame in 2008 * Rest In Peace, Champion! * Greetings from Venezuela. Manila: (1983 - 28 de Febrero, 2008) * Padre: Lyphard * Abuelo paterno: Northern Dancer * Madre: Dona Ysidra * Abuelo materno: Le Fabuleux * Sexo: Semental * Criador: Eduardo Cojuangco Jr. * Propietarios: Eduardo Cojuangco Jr. & Bradley M. Shannon * Entrenador: LeRoy Jolley (Q.E.P.D.) * Jinetes: Fernando Toro Jacinto Vásquez José Santos Ángel Cordero Jr. * 18 Salidas * 12 Primeros * 5 Segundos * U.S.$ 2,692,799 producidos ($6,347,548 actuales) * Caballo Campeón de Grama en Estados Unidos 1987 * Exaltado al Museo Nacional de las Carreras y Salón de la Fama en 2008 * ¡Descansa En Paz, Campeón! * Saludos desde Venezuela.
DB's crushing defeat here, IMO, made his legacy overlooked by some of those Americans and make some stereotype thoughts towards the then European horse racing, while in the past US horse racing did deeply influence the European counterpart before the beginning of this century, since many of those then European top flat horses were bred in America, including DB himself. Besides, I guess this race also became one of the reasons why Frankel didn't go to the US decades later. I heard some of those yanks thought this so-called invincible thing would be eventually blown out of water by their local hero, Wise Dan.
DB had lost 15 pounds in quarantine !! .... so you saw nowhere near his best unfortunately. He didn't have his usual afterburner finish on the home straight. Always difficult having to ship horses to other continents to compete. Luckily with the Arc - that's a very short and easy trip. Everything else (US, Aus, .....) it's rather difficult and you won't get a true reflection alas.
Would have loved him to have been put away after the Arc & kept in training as a 4yo, but his Stud value (and the 80's trend of early retirement for top class horses) meant that was not going to happen. But Brave's one of the Greats, He will never be forgotten🏇😊
"I rode him five times and never got beat with him. He beat all the champions in the Breeder´s Cup. When people ask me what´s the best turf horse I´ve ridden, I say Manila" Jose Santos (April 26, 1961 - ) Hall of Fame jockey Greetings from Venezuela "Lo monté cinco veces y nunca tuve tropiezos con él. Venció a todos los campeones en la Copa de Criadores. Cuando la gente me pregunta cuál es el mejor caballo de césped que he montado, digo Manila" José Santos (26 de Abril 1961 - ) Jinete del Salón de la Fama Saludos desde Venezuela.
One race to many for Dancing Brave after starting off in the Craven in April. I was lucky enough to be at Sandown to see him win the Eclipse. All time great horse.
A fit DB would of beat these no problem off a fast or slow pace. The 2K G was slow and he flew past a champion sprinter in the last 2f. The Arc was a fast pace and he passed 8 Gr1 winners in 1f. Theatrical was average in UK and a good 14lbs below DB. DB almost died a few months after this race with Maries disease. One race too many but it was worth a try he was that good. Its a shame Triptych, Sharastani or Shardari did not run here as they would of been a good yardstick to see now far below DB performed.
A sad end to a great career. It hurts to watch it. You're right, she shouldn't have gone and deserved better. The most exciting and charismatic horse ever.
Theatrical ran in the 1985 Epsom Derby behind Slip Anchor, but like many horses then went over to America where conditions and other arrangements probably suited him better. I remember watching this race live in the UK when C4 did the coverage. The Americans, in my opinion, fixed this because I have never seen American horses start a race so slowly, even over this distance. Dancing Brave was invited over to run, but it was a bad decision, and rather added to the his mixed fortunes of what I would consider a controversial, if at times brilliant, career.
@@michaelmarra5921 Reasons and excuses are not the same thing. Theatrical was nowhere near the class of Dancing Brave, yet Manila struggled to beat him.
It's coincidence and irrelevant that they were left had tracks considering once coming off the final bend then it is a long straight regardless as to which way the course turns. The issue with what way a course turns mainly matters in jump racing, where if say a horse is constantly jumping out to its left on a right-handed course then it will need constant correcting its racing line after each obstacle, when it is losing ground each time. Punters hear that said about a jumps horse and then repeat it as a reason for a flat racing horse as if it actually matters.
@@RO-uf9ii OK so maybe take your own advice then considering you seem to think it is OK for you to express your views but apparently not for me. Not really sure either how you decide something is said from words on a screen and no tone, like if it was spoken.
So tired of people who are not aware of the toughest grass horse ever. as well as a number of fantastic races on the dirt...the immortal Round Table........Just check out his record.......SEC . never carried more than 126 lbs......RT hardly ever carried less than 130 lbs......won with 137 lbs in the Hollywood Gold cup... also horse of the year 2 times leading grass sire for a few years........people just check out his record as well as you tube vid..... he would crush Sec. at equal weights.......the most over -rated horse in racing history.......the euros would have also crushed Sec,.....he was great, but not the greatest ever.
@@robertdelacy3434 Many great horses fail at stud, just one of those things, Frankle got it right just in time, once they get past their third or fourth crop and don't produce anything of real note the breeders start looking at other stallions and they start getting sent mares of lesser quality.
That's ok nightowl, was more directed at the person who said he was a terrible sire. I am 59yrs old, and Dancing Brave was the finest, and also unluckiest most brilliant horse I have ever seen. Good enough for this lifelong fan of the sport of Kings. All the best!
"I rode him five times and never got beat with him. He beat all the champions in the Breeder´s Cup. When people ask me what´s the best turf horse I´ve ridden, I say Manila" Jose Santos (April 26, 1961 - ) Hall of Fame jockey Manila: (1983 - February 28, 2008) Sire Lyphard Grandsire Northern Dancer Dam Dona Ysidra Damsire Le Fabuleux *18 Starts *12 Victories * 5 Seconds *Earnings: U.S.$ 2,692,799 *American Champion Male Turf Horse (1987) *Inducted to The National Museum of Racing and Hall of Fame (2008) Greetings from Venezuela.
People who don't properly recognize Manila, a 3yo at that, as absolutely brilliant are simply not the"knowing" horse people they think they are. Excuses, excuses, excuses!!!! Silly!!
Excuses excuses excuses. Very good horse but not great. As I’ve said over and over the European jockeys stink when it comes to rating horses. They’d be just average in America. And let’s stop with dehydration. Lol if he was dehydrated he’d never be near any of these horses
Thanks for adding this! Such a shame Dancing Brave didn't give his true running, after getting a clod of dirt in his eye.
@Gary Pollard "The only thing found to be wrong with Dancing Brave afterwards was an eye injury thought to have been caused by kickback from where the turf course crosses the dirt track, but what that contributed to his performance, if anything, was impossible to say. He’d had a long season, and what was certain was that he didn’t give his true running".
That obviously did not help but probably what beat the horse was dehydration, the amount of weight lost in the time it was over in America and it being a relatively new thing at the time for GB trainers to take their horses to the meeting.
These days there is very little time from coming off the plane to the actual race. Yet back then it was thought horses needed time to acclimatise, which was probably true but they did not really know for how long and Dancing Brave had two weeks and had lost that weight.
The accepted thinking now seems to be around four weeks to acclimatise or a smash and grab style visit, where there is little time between the flight and the race itself.
And he lost 15lb stuck in quarantine.. Can't help thinking it was loaded in the US horses favour.. But Manilla was a Great Horse too.. And Dancing Braves Half Brother..
Dancing Brave's trainer talking about Enable's chances at the Breeders' Cup.
"Dancing Brave had done a long season and when one looks back there were just the signs he was probably going past his best and he got very dehydrated in California.
"In those days we didn't realise that the best way to do it was to race them off the plane. We had him out there for a while.
"He never got over the dehydration, so he never got back to his best racing weight. It was one of those things.
"I'd have thought Enable would have a great chance. I think she should enjoy the ground and she is drawn two, which is good.
"It will be wonderful to watch."
Simply put Dancing Brave was Pegasus,
The greatest horse .
No excuses for DB, I taped this on my VHS and noticed DB had turf kicked up into his eye turning in to the straight.
This race was always a huge risk for DB, after a long season. The slow pace, the round and round track, it was set for defeat all the way. I remember manila trainer , slagging off dancing brave afterwards, guy Harwood would have been a gentleman if it had been other way round tho ....
Brough "Is this the Wonder Horse"
Yes, In England & France he put up some Awesome races performances 🏇🏇🏇🏇💥💥
Manila:
(1983 - February 28, 2008)
* Sire: Lyphard
* Grandsire: Northern Dancer
* Dam: Dona Ysidra
* Damsire: Le Fabuleux
* Sex: Stallion
* Breeder: Eduardo Cojuangco Jr.
* Owners: Eduardo Cojuangco Jr. & Bradley M. Shannon
* Trainer: LeRoy Jolley (R.I.P.)
* Jockeys: Fernando Toro
Jacinto Vasquez
Jose Santos
Angel Cordero Jr.
* 18 Starts
* 12 Wins
* 5 Seconds
* U.S.$ 2,692,799 earned (Current $6,347,548)
* 1987 American Champion Male Turf Horse
* Inducted to The National Museum of Racing and Hall of Fame in 2008
* Rest In Peace, Champion!
* Greetings from Venezuela.
Manila:
(1983 - 28 de Febrero, 2008)
* Padre: Lyphard
* Abuelo paterno: Northern Dancer
* Madre: Dona Ysidra
* Abuelo materno: Le Fabuleux
* Sexo: Semental
* Criador: Eduardo Cojuangco Jr.
* Propietarios: Eduardo Cojuangco Jr. & Bradley M. Shannon
* Entrenador: LeRoy Jolley (Q.E.P.D.)
* Jinetes: Fernando Toro
Jacinto Vásquez
José Santos
Ángel Cordero Jr.
* 18 Salidas
* 12 Primeros
* 5 Segundos
* U.S.$ 2,692,799 producidos ($6,347,548 actuales)
* Caballo Campeón de Grama en Estados Unidos 1987
* Exaltado al Museo Nacional de las Carreras y Salón de la Fama en 2008
* ¡Descansa En Paz, Campeón!
* Saludos desde Venezuela.
Both of Dancing Braves defeats were on left handed tracks
RUBBISH!!!
..Left-hand track had nothing to do with his defeat in the Derby, watch it again- The JOCKEY thought He was on Pegasus!!!
@@jcanyiam8309 it’s not rubbish he didn’t handle the track in Epsom come down tattenham corner he was all over the shop lost couple lengths there
@@kieran3389 I agree Greville did Nothing wrong at all
DB's crushing defeat here, IMO, made his legacy overlooked by some of those Americans and make some stereotype thoughts towards the then European horse racing, while in the past US horse racing did deeply influence the European counterpart before the beginning of this century, since many of those then European top flat horses were bred in America, including DB himself. Besides, I guess this race also became one of the reasons why Frankel didn't go to the US decades later. I heard some of those yanks thought this so-called invincible thing would be eventually blown out of water by their local hero, Wise Dan.
Let's see; Theatrical, Dancing brave, Estrapade, and Manila in the same race? Wow!!❤️🙏👉🇺🇸
DB had lost 15 pounds in quarantine !! .... so you saw nowhere near his best unfortunately. He didn't have his usual afterburner finish on the home straight. Always difficult having to ship horses to other continents to compete. Luckily with the Arc - that's a very short and easy trip. Everything else (US, Aus, .....) it's rather difficult and you won't get a true reflection alas.
Would have loved him to have been put away after the Arc & kept in training as a 4yo, but his Stud value (and the 80's trend of early retirement for top class horses) meant that was not going to happen.
But Brave's one of the Greats, He will never be forgotten🏇😊
@@steveo7165Two races it would be lovely to have seen, Nijinsky v Mill reef and dancing brave v reference point
Got at,this wasn't the dancing brave we all know and love.
"I rode him five times and never got beat with him. He beat all the champions in the Breeder´s Cup. When people ask me what´s the best turf horse I´ve ridden, I say Manila"
Jose Santos
(April 26, 1961 - )
Hall of Fame jockey
Greetings from Venezuela
"Lo monté cinco veces y nunca tuve tropiezos con él. Venció a todos los campeones en la Copa de Criadores. Cuando la gente me pregunta cuál es el mejor caballo de césped que he montado, digo Manila"
José Santos
(26 de Abril 1961 - )
Jinete del Salón de la Fama
Saludos desde Venezuela.
The commentator is woeful 😂
This race was a tactical masterpiece it took the sting out of dancing braves finish
One race to many for Dancing Brave after starting off in the Craven in April. I was lucky enough to be at Sandown to see him win the Eclipse. All time great horse.
A fit DB would of beat these no problem off a fast or slow pace. The 2K G was slow and he flew past a champion sprinter in the last 2f. The Arc was a fast pace and he passed 8 Gr1 winners in 1f. Theatrical was average in UK and a good 14lbs below DB. DB almost died a few months after this race with Maries disease. One race too many but it was worth a try he was that good. Its a shame Triptych, Sharastani or Shardari did not run here as they would of been a good yardstick to see now far below DB performed.
A sad end to a great career. It hurts to watch it. You're right, she shouldn't have gone and deserved better. The most exciting and charismatic horse ever.
He
Won £90 on Manila.
Theatrical ran in the 1985 Epsom Derby behind Slip Anchor, but like many horses then went over to America where conditions and other arrangements probably suited him better. I remember watching this race live in the UK when C4 did the coverage. The Americans, in my opinion, fixed this because I have never seen American horses start a race so slowly, even over this distance. Dancing Brave was invited over to run, but it was a bad decision, and rather added to the his mixed fortunes of what I would consider a controversial, if at times brilliant, career.
malcs0 :47 for a half mile is not slow for a mile and a half turf race in America. In fact, :47 would be considered slightly aggressive.
Fixed...please Manila smoked him...and he was only getting better, as a 4 year old he was even Better!
Everyone get over it, Manila proved who was BEST!! Keep coming up with your SILLY excuses!!!
@@michaelmarra5921 Reasons and excuses are not the same thing.
Theatrical was nowhere near the class of Dancing Brave, yet Manila struggled to beat him.
Bear in mind that on the two occasions Dancing Brave lost it was on left handed tracks .
And tight turn left hand tracks too...
Very true
It's coincidence and irrelevant that they were left had tracks considering once coming off the final bend then it is a long straight regardless as to which way the course turns.
The issue with what way a course turns mainly matters in jump racing, where if say a horse is constantly jumping out to its left on a right-handed course then it will need constant correcting its racing line after each obstacle, when it is losing ground each time.
Punters hear that said about a jumps horse and then repeat it as a reason for a flat racing horse as if it actually matters.
@@seanscanlon9067 Have a day off Sean, u r so passive aggressive, more important things in life...
@@RO-uf9ii OK so maybe take your own advice then considering you seem to think it is OK for you to express your views but apparently not for me.
Not really sure either how you decide something is said from words on a screen and no tone, like if it was spoken.
So tired of people who are not aware of the toughest grass horse ever. as well as a number of fantastic races on the dirt...the immortal Round Table........Just check out his record.......SEC . never carried more than 126 lbs......RT hardly ever carried less than 130 lbs......won with 137 lbs in the Hollywood Gold cup... also horse of the year 2 times leading grass sire for a few years........people just check out his record as well as you tube vid..... he would crush Sec. at equal weights.......the most over -rated horse in racing history.......the euros would have also crushed Sec,.....he was great, but not the greatest ever.
Wonder how many of those horses were on drugs.
in fairness believe you me Dancing Brave was abit shite here not quite as game as a pebble not quite his self but he had lovely hooves
Manila was the best
No he was not.
Quite sad to see a great racehorse run his last race in defeat.
He was a terrible sire
@@robertdelacy3434 Many great horses fail at stud, just one of those things, Frankle got it right just in time, once they get past their third or fourth crop and don't produce anything of real note the breeders start looking at other stallions and they start getting sent mares of lesser quality.
His son won the Epsom Derby in 1993 , Commander In Chief, Yeah really terrible! Smh.
@@MrMrdonpitbull I didn't realise that.
That's ok nightowl, was more directed at the person who said he was a terrible sire. I am 59yrs old, and Dancing Brave was the finest, and also unluckiest most brilliant horse I have ever seen. Good enough for this lifelong fan of the sport of Kings. All the best!
The Lincol NGA> 86 22 56=11
Manila.... The best American grass horse ever#Dethroned the wonder horse😉
Secretariat was greater on turf.
@@connorduke4619 secretariat was greatest ever imho and im a brit
Kingslayer_nation 123 Lyphard class
"I rode him five times and never got beat with him. He beat all the champions in the Breeder´s Cup. When people ask me what´s the best turf horse I´ve ridden, I say Manila"
Jose Santos
(April 26, 1961 - )
Hall of Fame jockey
Manila:
(1983 - February 28, 2008)
Sire Lyphard
Grandsire Northern Dancer
Dam Dona Ysidra
Damsire Le Fabuleux
*18 Starts
*12 Victories
* 5 Seconds
*Earnings: U.S.$ 2,692,799
*American Champion Male Turf Horse (1987)
*Inducted to The National Museum of Racing and Hall of Fame (2008)
Greetings from Venezuela.
People who don't properly recognize Manila, a 3yo at that, as absolutely brilliant are simply not the"knowing" horse people they think they are. Excuses, excuses, excuses!!!! Silly!!
Excuses excuses excuses. Very good horse but not great. As I’ve said over and over the European jockeys stink when it comes to rating horses. They’d be just average in America. And let’s stop with dehydration. Lol if he was dehydrated he’d never be near any of these horses
biased and blinkered,the judges in uk and ireland say he was the greatest,15kg of weight he didnt take the travelling it hppens
You sure talk some crap.
@@davidfoster2006 fantastic input david