Alan Moore's Biggest Writing Regret | The Killing Joke
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- čas přidán 27. 08. 2024
- The Killing Joke is, of course, a fantastic graphic novel, so then why does Alan Moore regret one of his most popular works? Let's take a look a look at why Alan Moore regrets writing The Killing Joke. Using the word copycat was a mistake! My fault!
Amazon link:
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It seems he doesn’t regret the story so much as the effect it had on the comics industry.
Yes, well said.
Actually, he said in an interview that he specifically regretted paralyzing Barbara Gordon and destroying the character of Batgirl, and having her stripped naked and humiliated. He said he contacted the editors at DC to get their permission first before he did that, and their answer shocked him. He said they said "Sure. Go ahead. Cripple the bitch". He was shocked to learn that the editors at DC had an open contempt and hostility towards female superheroes, particularly Batgirl.
Moore regrets and dislikes most things these days ...
Too true
What about Lost Girls? He should really regret that one. It's Cheese Pizza, for those of you lucky enough to not know about it.
Amazing video my friend. It sucks that Moore has to watch the comic book industry learn the wrong lessons from his works.
Bless 🙏
Despite how out-of-touch he is with reality and the fact that he is resentful of basically every comic book fan nowadays, at least Alan Moore and I agree about Watchmen. Tbh, between the two 'game-changers' released at that time, "Dark Knight" by Miller and "Watchmen" by Moore, I always preferred Frank Miller's version of 'Gritty'. He portrayed a world that was suffering from the lack of the classic hero, Batman is retired, Superman is now under the US's direct command. It was the fact that the traditional superheroes were missing that was the problem rather than a world where many of the major heroes were often as corrupt as the villains. The world was made better by Batman's presence and/or influence and he singlehandedly revives Gotham's hope and spirit by defeating that gang leader in that fight. The desire for justice wasn't dead it had just been dampened and restrained, waiting for someone to set it free. Watchmen ends on a consolation and compromise accepted by all but one hero, who is killed to maintain the lie. "Dark Knight" ends on a complete cleaning of the slate and chance for a new world built on the old sense of heroism and desire for justice. True 'Good' isn't a childish fantasy in Miller's vision, it is a high bar that is worth striving and hoping for.
Optimism is a theme lacking in a lot of new stories.
Miller believes in heroes, the ideal concept of it. Alan Moore doesn't, or believes heroes are fake, distractions, and only promote the status quo.
@@barriolimbas Alan Moore once said that an argument could be made that 'Birth of a Nation' was the first superhero movie and why superheroes wear masks and capes, yeah, Moore is THAT GUY
Great post. I love the way you describe TDKR. I've always considered Alan Moore to be a "grumpy old man". I love his stories but I don't really care what his opinions are.
@@barriolimbasthis, OP totally misses the point. Moore is not saying that heroes are as bad as villains, he just rejects that whole dicotomy completely. As they say, every villain is the hero of his own story, so for Moore it’s impossible to distinguish a hero from a villain, since both think they are heroes trying to impose to the rest of society their own idea of justice through the use of force and violence. Thus the concept of “who watches the watchmen”, implying that the idea of someone trying to impose their own morality to the rest of society by violent means it’s wrong by definition, no matter if that morality is right or wrong.
This was very interesting. Minor consideration though if I may. Though of the same era, I never found Gaimin to be a copycat. Moore became the touchstone for deconstruction in comics, but with the Sandman, ultimately I thought Gaimin found his feet, and seemed to create his own thing.
That’s fair. Looking back, I think “copycat” was a poor choice of words to express the influence Alan Moore had with the examples I chose to show. Thanks for watching!
Gaiman is a contempory of Moore not a copycat, came up with Moore along with Grant Morrison and a whole slew of artists like Bolland, O'Neil, Gibbons etc. He was the original rock star comics
The Dark Knight Returns (1986) was not a copycat. The Killing Joke came out in 1988. The Dark Knight Returns changed comics.
I understand. It was a mistake in scripting and editing. I shouldn't used the word copycat either. My intention was to say books like The Dark Knight Returns were influenced by Alan Moore's earlier work.
Alan Moore is the spoiled child that doesn't share his toys because he thinks the other children won't play with them properly. Maybe he's right, maybe he's wrong, but that's the impression that I get.
I always took his behavior as disgust with capitalism because he is an anarchist.
@@BitsofLit I think it's absolutely hilarious that the graphic novel Pax Americana (written by Grant Morrison, art by Frank Quitely) is just Watchmen but with the characters Moore originally wanted to use and I can't imagine how much that pisses him off.
Maybe Alan Moore doesn't like the modern comic industry because he sees on it a reflection of himself, brooding, cynical and overly critical, everyone wants to deconstruct even though there's nothing else to deconstruct anymore, and it seems Alan Moore has become so detach to everything he just dislikes everything and everyone as well.
Ha!
I think Alan Moore expressed his regret for writing _The Killing Joke_ in the nineties, when the postmodernist phase of superhero comics was starting to get exhausting. I think he probably finds the state of the comics industry to be in a less depressing spot today than it was then.
I didn't care for the animated adaption of the story. It just seemed like it was done to satisfy Bruce Timm's obsession with a Batman and Batgirl relationship.
I don’t particularly care for the comic so I’ve never seen the animation either.
@@BitsofLit The comic in this case was better because it didn’t contain a Bruce and Babs ship, but I see what you mean.
There's a key element to Killing Joke and all the other "comics for adults" that has to be taken into consideration. At the time, each medium, from books to film to comics, and at last, television, needed to cast off the knee-jerk, pearl-clutching performative morality coming from the religious right. It was stifling creativity, and because it was so all-pervasive, it was stifling the country. Transgression is an important part of culture. It keeps people awake and conscious about what they consider right and wrong. It's all too easy to come up with a formula, like the old Comics Code Authority, which itself was created to exploit the moral panic stirred up in the 50s and drive the excellent EC Comics company out of business. It was actually the brilliant Karen Berger, editor of Alan Moore's run on Swamp Thing in the 80s, who went to bat to drop the CCA on that book, and Jeanette Khan, DC's greatest editor-in-chief, who agreed to let Alan's book run without it.
Comics had been pushing against those constraints since the end of the 50s. When Batman '66 came out, Batman comics were already moving into darker territory with writers like Denny O'Neil and artist Neil Adams. And in fact, I'd say that the Batman show itself was a pointed satire, making a cartoonish mockery of 50s values. Marvel Comics rose to prominence by offering a grittier alternative. By the time The Dark Knight Returns came along, Chris Claremont had long since turned the X-Men into a brutal indictment of the religious right's moral panic. So Frank Miller's Batman, and Alan Moore's superhero deconstruction Watchmen, were the final transgression against the 50s idea of what comics were supposed to be.
The problem with transgression is that, once moral authority has been unmasked as hypocrisy, there's no one left to transgress against. But the thrill of transgression remains. So what's left? Very quickly, Watchmen gave way to Killing Joke, then Brat Pack, Marshal Law, Preacher, etc. The "edgelord" comic was born, transgressing against good taste for no greater purpose than to outrage. Alan Moore in general tries to reveal the falseness of moral constructs in order to try and find better ones. But Mark Millar, Garth Ennis, and the rest of the edgelord generation just wanted to crap all over anything anyone holds sacred, not in search of wisdom, but just for lols. "You mad, bro?"
Killing Joke wasn't innocent of that kind of transgression. It wanted to be extreme to make a point, but in its zeal, it crossed a line into exploitation. Alan would be the first to admit that. He knows exactly what he did. And he didn't do it alone. He proposed the idea, and editor Denny O'Neil was more than happy to agree to it. "Cripple the bitch" was the direct quote I heard (albeit second-hand.) And neither Alan nor Denny considered that the twist might become DC canon. Killing Joke was produced in the days before Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns became the official roadmap to the future of comics. By the time they realized, the damage was done.
Ultimately, there's no going back to the way comics used to be, and even if they did, it would benefit no one. But transgression is no longer transgressive if it's the company line. It's not getting away with anything, it's just increasing vulgarity and negativity for its own sake, outraging no one but straw men. And anyone who points out how toxic or abusive it's becoming is painted as that straw man. I think we can all agree that comics, especially DC comics, need to be toned down. They used to appeal to younger readers as well as teenagers and adults, and it'd be nice if they veered back in that direction, a little more Avatar and a little less Saw.
I get why Alan feels regretful, but this was the cost of participating in the social conversation on the level he did. He pushed the envelope, and ultimately, he pushed it too far. But that's what needs to happen for people to re-evaluate what their values are. We can all look at The Killing Joke as the point where transgression becomes exploitation, desecrating something genuinely sacred. It marks the place where mindless pearl-clutching meets a real moral quandary. It was a bad choice that started an important conversation.
Fantastic input! I wouldn’t want to go back to comics before anyway. I like to see different trends, even if they can be egregious. It’s an art form that should evolve!
Not only is he Killing Joke the single best Batman story ever written, it's the best one shot comic of all time.
it’s definitely not loool it’s great but barbara basically gets fridged and was only saved because ostrander is a chad
@@doodoo5594Please leave Gail Simone's "Fridging" bullshit out of this.
@@funkyweapon1981 call it what you want, but babs gets fucked over and it’s not even her comic
Sorry, it's here to stay. You can either get with the program or get the fuck out
it certainly is popular for a reason
Then there is Paul Pope's Batman: Year 100. Definitely masterclass work, for mature audiences, keeping it grim and feeling real, but Batman as a positive guy full of questions and can-do hope straight up even if world around tries to stay nasty. That work would probably also not exist without The Killing Joke. Go read that, and feel way less guilty, a proof that there is high quality goodness and stuff without psychotic murder avenger mentality.
Thanks for the recommendation!
people liked Rorschach for the reasons Moore wanted people to hate him, People like Killing joke for the reasons Moore want people to hate it.
Funny how that works
It's hard not to like Rorschach because even though he's not a good person Moore gives you a complete understanding of why he is the way he is that makes sense. But he might be talking about people like Snyder who talks about Dark Knight Returns and how it's the one comic book movie he would return to and use the panels as storyboards. I feel like a page and a few panels is missing from his copy. Things like rubber bullets, and saying guns are for cowards would probably not make it in the movie.
"I've never really liked my story in The Killing Joke, i think it put far too much mellow dramatic weight upon a character that was never designed to carry it"
I can't help but agree with that quote from him to a large degree despite my fondness of stories like Killing Joke and Dark Knight Returns.
Alan Moore had no idea how to end it. Somewhere down the line he felt that the story derailed at some point and threw his hands up.
Nah, Batman started dark. Everything prior to the comics code was based on pulp detective comics. They're all violent dark comics. All those G rated comics came from the 50s-60s. Then Denny O'Neil brought him back to being a dark character in the 70s. This all happened way before Death in the Family. Batman's "camp" years are insulated between 20 years of his 80+ year history. The other 60 years he's been a dark brooding character. Yeah, his camp years are the era he got his first hit show so that makes it stand out more. But like I said, it's such a small era that defines the character to this day. It really shouldn't.
fair enough! I should've done more research to make a better video. My mistake!
@@BitsofLit no mistake taken. It's just a common misconception about Batman's history. Most people think this.
Moore is right. Watchmen and Killing Joke work because of their departure from what was the norm
To Alan Moore it's just a story about Batman and the Joker. The concept of One bad day is not as important culturally and politically as the themes for V for Vendetta and Watchmen. Barbara Gordon's maiming wasn't really that much of a big deal to him They were, to Moore, non entities.
I really need to read V for Vendetta
I think The Authority comics do a good job of overcoming these tropes by presenting heroes that are principled and good while still challenging real institutional power. It is still subversive without falling into the typical grimdark tropes that have taken over the comics industry.
I'll have to have a look some day!
@@BitsofLit I should amend that it still has some over the top cringe edginess at times (mostly from the villains), but it has a refreshingly optimistic outlook on superheroes as well. It rejects the idea that super heroes would all be sociopaths and narcissists and that many would be authentically good people.
Wait a minute, didn't The Authority lead to the creation of The Elite? A superhero team who represent that 80s notion that the classic hero doesn't fit in with more contemporary cynical world-views? That the hero now must be an anti-hero to fit in with the world (which in other words is the comics landscape)? And I thought being a sociopath is apart of Midnighter's character. It is a deconstruction of the superhero as I remember it. I don't really recall them having a very positive message. I didn't finish it but what I remember it wasn't really that. I am prepared to be completely wrong about that so please correct me if I'm wrong.
@@juliangrant9718 I only read the first series (29 issues) and don't know about The Elite so I can't speak to that. From what I did read I thought The Authority aligned with a principled code of utilitarian ethics. Their mantra was that it wasn't enough to save the world, they needed to make the world into a place worth saving. They topple dictators, provide humanitarian aid to people in need, and challenge the global hegemony of the US government. When conventional super heroes save the day, the world goes back to business as usual with all its injustice. Their heroism starts and ends at preserving the status quo. What sets The Authority apart is that they are not just super heroes, they are also activists for a better world.
@@juliangrant9718I don't think you're wrong, I'm pretty sure the Authority are technically authoritarian "superheroes" it's why they're name is what it is, there is very little wholesome about them, unless you grew up in the USSR then it's probably wholesome to them
the more i learn about alan moore, the more he just seems like an utterly depressed individual. i don’t trust anything he says because it’s all filtered through a relentless anhedonia. it’s like he accomplishes something, it doesn’t fill the hole inside him, and he works backwards to figure out why. perhaps this is projection because i’m the same way, but it’s just something i’ve noticed over the years.
Yeah many people with depressive feelings combined with low self esteem subconsciously use a mask to cover up how they really feel about things so that they can feel more comfortable when facing society
I always took it as an expression of his disgust with capitalism because he is an anarchist, among other things that are counter to his culture
If Alan Moore were a teenager today, he would absolutely be the asshole writing Peppa Pig creepypastas.
The Killing Joke's idea of Joker's multiple pasts was kind of annoying to me and Endgame made it worse.
haha true
if I were moore, I'd regret writing it because it's a stupid story. not one hour before he paralyzes and violates barbara gordon in the hopes of tormenting his friend into madness and batman just shares a laugh with this malignant sociopath???
Haha this is why I didn’t make this video about how deep and meaningful the story is. It’s pretty bad, though I think the paneling is well done
Do you get why the story was called "The Killing Joke"?
After Batman proves to Joker that he was wrong about Gordon and tries to reach out for him one last time Joker's telling him a joke about the absurdity of the two's relationship.
It's kind of heavily implied that Batman could have reached his breaking point with Joker in that moment after all the horrible things he's done to everyone and finally ended him.
The paneling on the last page shows Batman grabbing the Joker before changing the perspective to the ground away from the two and leaving us with the question if Batman actually just killed the Joker.
I think it's a cliffhanger that's more so a metaphor on the fact that it's too late for both of them to change and that one of them is eventually going to have the others blood on their hands.
Entering full video essay style I see.
I Guess so haha, i don’t have the energy to make those hour long ones though 😵
@@BitsofLitSo naturally you'll make one of those 15 hour videos.
How’d you know? 🤠
@@BitsofLit I got a sense for these things.
If Batman’s laugh with joker at the end were BWAH HA HA HA, the whole story would be perfect.
BWAH HA HA HA
Interesting video.
Although, the "volume" was way to low for me (til the point that I needed to use closed captions...).
I tried with my phone first, and then with my TV (but I needed to increase the volume really high).
Again, interesting... (And I agree). I'm not even gonna mention the animated movie 😒
My apologies! While editing, I had headphones on. I will keep users like you in mind in the future. Sorry for the trouble! The less said about the animated film, the better.
This video sounds like it was narrated by Scarecrow.
I've been found!
Good video, except that you showed Frank Miller’s The Dark Knight Returns when you were talking about copycats. Dark Knight came out in 1986 and Killing Joke came out in 1988.
That is true, but Alan Moore’s influence on comics started before The Dark Knight Rises came out. Miracle Man came out before it, as well as Swamp Thing and V for Vendetta, parts of it anyway. Looking back, I wish I took more time to make this video and made it longer to build a stronger argument with more clear editing, but there’s always the future. Thanks for watching!
@@BitsofLitCool discussion. You have to remember that Frank Miller took over the writing and art on Daredevil in January of 1981, over a year before Warrior began publication. He was already pushing the boundaries of comic storytelling, before he'd even heard of Alan Moore. It wasn't until 1984 that Moore would take over Swamp Thing, 1985 Eclipse would begin reprinting Miracle Man, and 1989 before DC published V for Vendetta.
@anotherfatbeardedmantalkin5893 thanks for the reminder. I’d like to return to this subject in the future and iron out the details so I don’t overlook these kind of details. Well, it was a start at least!
Moore was the original hipster. Believing in his own worldview and changing routinely if too many people agree with him. He pretty much pioneered something, taking outdated and childish comics and adding enough reality to them to evoke real thought into the character make up. And then when people take up the same exercise he bashes their work as pedantic and uninspired, even his own work is similarly bashed. I just don't listen to the guy anymore.
sometimes it's best to separate the art from the artist and, of course, form your own opinions
Lets not overlook The Bojeffries Saga also written by Mr Moore and featured in Warrior magazine.
I loved it.
i've never heard of it. I'll look into it.
I like Alan Moore. I despise his politics. But I think From Hell is one of the greatest masterpieces ever made. But his comments are absolutely egotistical. He is not the sole reason for comics not getting over that dark deconstruction influence. It was a wave of comic writers in the 80s who pushed that boundary. Moore was apart of it, but not the sole reason. I would say Frank Miller is more influential with that era of deconstruction than Alan Moore is. The difference is Miller actually deconstructs the comic industry, not society. The Mutants in TDKR are a clear reference and criticism of the X-Men's popularity when Claremont joined. They even all wear visors like Cyclops. He's literally calling them ideological terrorists who are not heroes whatsoever. They're a destructive youth movement run by a cult leader. Moore deconstructs society using flawed heroes. He has to make them fit in to that worldview. The characters almost write themselves that way because you need archetypes. That's why he wanted the Charlton Heroes for Watchmen because they all fit his archetypes for that story. I always thought Moore's complaints were never really about setting any tropes. His complaints were always about the way he treated Barbara and breaking the mystery behind Joker's origin. He thought he was breaking taboo that he shouldn't. I'm not trying to downplay any influence Moore has on the industry. He's one the most prolific comic book writers in history. He deserves all the respect and all the credit to those are influenced by him. But he is not the reason why comics can't get over that hump. Movies are far more influential than people realise. The day they make a succesful film that looks completely traditional and positive like the Christopher Reeve Superman, the mood will shift back to a far more lighter affair with comics.
Same. Not a fan of his world view but I like his taste in pulp stories and stylistic tendencies. Movies do pave the way for the tone of everything that follows, we're past the age of subverted franchises, MCU schlock and grim tv shows, I think. It's just hard getting creatives in a position right now with how things are to make a new tone to stories. With the big companies losing more money we'll see shakeups next year to change how things are made imo
I feel like the animated DC universe before the more New 52 era adaptations for older audiences was that golden age of optimism for me, mainly Justice League and Unlimited, Teen Titans, The Batman, Batman The Brave and The Bold, ect including the earlier animated movies adapting comics, it was an era I felt pride in having lived in cause it felt so genuine and good spirited for comic book heroes.
Killing joke was one of the first Batman comics I bought. I only got it because of Alan moore who I grew up reading when he wrote for 2000ad
I’d like to read more of his work from early on
@StriketheSunMD try halo Jones, future shocks and skizz. All graphic novels.
Great video! You definitely deserve more subscribers
Thanks so much!
Repeating this here so others can laugh: I think it's absolutely hilarious that the graphic novel Pax Americana (written by Grant Morrison, art by Frank Quitely) is just Watchmen but with the characters Moore originally wanted to use and I can't imagine how much that pisses him off.
Fantastic haha
I like Moore- Swamp Thing was a wonderful comic and I really like Top Ten. That being said anytime I hear him talk about comics I think about how he intended Rorschach to be unlikeable and yet that character ended up being a fan favorite. Perhaps he's not the best person to look to for critiques of his own work.
I don’t see anything wrong with his own viewpoint on his own work. It’s his opinion, not a fact. I don’t need to agree with it. Swamp Thing is incredible!
@@BitsofLit I really appreciate the reply and I'm sorry I wasn't clearer. I didn't mean to suggest Moore shouldn't have an opinion, or that his opinions aren't interesting. I was just suggesting that asking any artist to critique their own work is like asking a parent to critique their child.
Also, if you haven't read Top Ten you should do so, it's really incredible and doesn't seem to get the recognition that Moore's other work does.
@@youareivan No worries! I didn't take it that way! I'd like to read all of Alan Moore's work, so eventually I'll get to Top Ten. Thanks for the recommendation!
I hate what he did to Barbra Gordon.
yeah, it's a bit much
Wasn’t The Dark Knight Returns released before The Killing Joke? This video suggests TDKR is a ‘copycat’ of TKJ.
Yes, I did a poor job with the editing and writing there. Copycat is a poor choice of words, but my intention was to say that these "copycats" were influenced by Alan Moore's early work like Miracle Man.
I've always had a distaste for the overly cynical and edgy trend in media, it works when it's the surprise, not as the main course of media consumption. It's why I can't stand so much tv movies and comics today it's just so full of itself trying to be subversive it just comes off as the next wannabe punk rocker who thinks he's unique
Ha, it is rare to find something sincere these days, isn’t it?
To be fair it still a decent and dark tale in the Batman mythos that still gets people talking about it.
True!
You should make a video about things that Alan Moore likes and enjoys. It'll be very short.
It would have to be a short 😜
Great job loved the laugh at end
Thank Mark Hamill!
The dark knight returns came out two years before the killing joke. It is weird and inappropriate to show it as you talk about “copycats”.
Poor choice of words and editing. I meant that the dark knight was influenced by his earlier works.
Calling the dark knight returns a copycat when it was published almost 2 years before killing joke is WILD.
It was meant more as a comment of his style, which became a big influence before that comic came out. It was a poor writing and editing mistake. My fault.
Neonomicon should be Alan Moore's deepest life regret.
haha
But making comics grim IS turning them on their heads. It's one way to do it, and I don't think it should be regrettable.
Fair enough. I think there’s room for all kinds of art.
@@BitsofLit absolutely. But I get your point and don't necessarily disagree.
I tried to read the killing joke 30 minutes ago, for the first time, I was in the middle of the video and I paused it to go read the killing joke. I was loving it. but then the Joker started having his sad background story flashback and I didn't like that, they lost me there. They ruin villains when you give them a sad story because now you are supposed to empathize with the bad guy and you are left with no villain!
The comic shows The Joker saying it may not even be the truth because he prefers having multiple choice backgrounds. He doesn't seem to actually remember what happened or just enjoys lying to justify himself.
Great vid. Keep it going
Thank you!
I read "The Killing Joke" just because I liked the other works of Moore.
Despite not being fond of the whole Batman-thing or any other classic superhero stuff, I thought: "ok, I'll give it a chance".
Well, even after considering that I'm biased, to me it's surely his weakest story.
I agree!
I agree - it's just become another trope.
Also I'm getting a bit tired of all the gore prn revelry in most of today's production pushed shows. There's this desire to push the bar more and more, to the point where it borders on mental illness. At a certain point in The Boys in particular I just stopped watching.
I have never had any interest in watching it. I don’t find evil Superman interesting.
@@BitsofLit Homelander - while a major player in the plot, isn't really the reason why the show has an audience I think.
I personally just found the oppressive tension of knowing that there is a group of government sanctioned, demigod like killers who are also mentally unstable and incredibly selfish running around both awe inducing and kind of terrifying.
Just a bit of a train wreck - holds you captive and horrified simultaneously
Moore is a great writer but he needs to get over himself. Time to come to grips with reality and remember you’re writing comics.
Haha
Could you whisper in more hushed tones, I almost heard what you were saying......
It was an issue with my audio equipment. My fault! Won’t happen again
A longer deep dive into Alan Moore or Frank Miller is something I would love to see.
The only reason I didn't is because I hadn't read more of Alan Moore's work. I'd like to return to Alan Moore's work in a long form deep dive in the future.