Hello you savages. Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - chriswillx.com/books/ Here’s the timestamps: 00:00 What Actually Makes an Attractive Face? 05:30 Why Masculine Faces Can Cause Concern for Women 13:56 The Different Signals of Make-Up & Tan 18:17 What Makes an Eye Attractive? 20:20 Why We Are So Drawn to Faces 26:28 Do Women Like Muscular Men? 31:34 Do Men Like Heavier Women? 42:11 Men’s Tastes Are Shaped by Social Ecology 46:10 Is There a Generally Attractive Waist to Hip Ratio? 54:27 What Role Does Height Play in Attraction? 1:02:12 What Happens When the Female is the Breadwinner 1:12:14 Worst Mating & Dating Myths 1:16:00 Are Women Really More Picky Than Men? 1:26:00 Discriminating Based on Hair Colour 1:30:59 Do Men Want Wider Age Gaps as They Age? 1:35:16 How Attractive Are Tattoos? 1:41:20 What You Need to Know About Stated v Revealed Preferences 1:51:37 The Counter-Signal of Saying ‘I Don’t Know’ 2:01:28 Where to Find Macken
Hey Chris! I really want to know if you've seen the recent top NETFLIX show "CAN I TELL YOU A SECRET?" It's from your neck of the woods! The accents are the same to my ears, anyway..without getting into too much detail- I questioned for a good while if it was a parody, or would ever find a grain of reason. or if the 4 people filmed in it also produced it... I'd love to hear what you think of this culture banger from Northern England, and if it's an accurate representation of how exciting and scary "true crime" gets in those parts. Maybe I was too harsh on the 2 part limited series! Maybe i need more compassion for the poor victimized igfluncers? Idk.. I HOPE you can talk about it sometime bc I watched it the WHOLE (miserably frustrating) TIME thinking.. "Chris would probably love to tear this up' 😂 👏🏻
@@Rickai85 Indeed, very synchronistically symetrical. I wasn't right on the sentence, but I was also very close to the place where he said it as I read it.
Bois, I'm still just tryin to calculate my mating success over here - is it number of mates? Quality of mates? Sex over a lifetime? Forget it; I'm goin back to bar hoppin.
Around 19:30 he talks about how eye color matters less if you're in a room of people with the same eye color, but if you're the odd one out color wise, it may benefit you. This reminds me of one time when I went to a Lamborghini dealership. They had like 10 of the same model, and it made them seem sooo much less interesting and valuable, compared to seeing one alone on the road. I was taken aback by how subconsciously they seemed so much less cool when there were a bunch of them sitting together in one place.
Way back when (I'm dating myself here), I crossed the English Channel on the ferry & there were two Lamborghini Countachs down below where the cars were. I remember thinking it was so cool & glamorous to see them in person.
Not true. You missed the pattern. What makes you attractive depends on the context, but it's always the thing that's rarer - because evolution strives for diversity. So: bearded when all others are clean-shaven and vice versa, blue eyes when all other eyes are brown, etc. Look at your surroundings, and you will know how you can stand out from your peers.
I'd say attraction comes down to different permutations of: looks/evolutionary traits personality (funny/witty, intelligent, integrity, self-esteem, honesty, emotional/social intelligence) finance passion/hobbies/skills. Then people have different "genre" preferences: business, intellectual, creative, sporty/warrior, rational, religious/secular etc. Then there are unhealthy (physical/emotional abusers), taboo(kids/animals) and superficial (gold-diggers, trophy-wives)attractions . In most cases, I think being a well rounded, emotionally and psychologically healthy person and having average or above looks = An attractive person.
Being a guy with a very feminine face myself, I can definitely attest through my own personal experience that there are a lot of women that are very attracted to feminine features in men. Men are made to believe that if you aren't hyper masculine in every way then you're destined to be an incel, but in reality this is not true. I'm 26 but look like a 16 year old because the way my face is, and very often get bullied and shamed for it, but at the same time a lot of girls have told me that I am very attractive. Dudes are always shocked whenever there is an attractive girl interested in me because I am the complete opposite of what you would call a "masculine" male adult, and because of this I was made to think something was wrong with the way I look, but I'm beginning to accept myself for who I am now.
This also lines up well with the studies around the pill, which causes women to go for more feminine faces (ie. caring in appearance) whereas once off contraception - there is a swing to classic male looks. Talking notable shifts, not everyone of course. Fellow youthful face owner, now bearded, and noticing a distinct shift in the type of women who approach me now.
Chris is a Purple Pilled Alpha. His beliefs conflict with @hoe_math, Rollo Tomassi (The Rational Male), Rich Cooper (Unplugged Alpha), Dr. Orion Taraban (Psychacks), etc.
Yup once he claimed tall girls have dating the hardest I knew what kind of guy he was 😂😂😂. He also won't admit that lots of women value status and preselection over anything in most cases.
No. He tries not to overstate the case or misrepresent the data. Instead, he draws reasonable conclusions that don't satisfy our desire for simple black or white answers to complex topics.
@@CulinaryGuide nah he doesn't live in the real world if he thinks dating is harder for women in any capacity. He also claims more men don't lower their physical standards which I definitely don't agree with. Most men date down.
Chris Williamson got him here. He won't admit that women believe in hypergamy, but it's true. I can tell you that I've dated many PhDs in DC (I have just 2 bachelor's). They tell me that I'm very attractive and a good person, but ultimately end up leaving me, because I don't have the status (careerwise), or don't make as much funds. Hypergamy is very real!
Well, to be fair, if a woman is going to make herself vulnerable enough to put her career aside to give you children, then it stands to reason that she wants to make sure that you can pay the bills while she's mothering in the early years of those children's lives. I chose to marry a carpenter and suffered greatly for it because I had to work full-time and then come home and do everything. It was not fun. It was not pleasant and I missed out with my daughter a lot because I was run ragged due to the fact that I did not participate in hypergamy.
@@Mmmmkaaay The point is that even when financial security isn't a factor women still date hypergamously. Its dating up SOCIO-economically. Its not just about $$$...its about the mans status. Finances play a large part about the mans status and is the easiest thing to measure. But its not the only criteria that women use to date hypergamously.
I didn't say it wasn't real. Women clearly mate "hypergamously" in terms of resources, on average, and express preferences congruent with that. Me and Chris were chatting about how flexible these preferences and behaviors may or may not be. To be frank, I think most people will be able to hear that our discussion was not at all about "Is it real?" but whether it is flexible enough to accommodate recent social shifts.
@@R-vw3uz Well what else is factored into "status" besides money? Fame? I mean, not many people are famous in proportion to the population. Perhaps this speaks to the fact that successful women have a harder time finding a mate because they think in their mind. Well, if I have a PhD he should at least have a PhD too. Now that women are educated, it's harder for them to find a man that is at least at the same level. Whereas a successful man will marry a bartender just because she's hot and doesn't care about what her job is or how intelligent she is.
Macken probably runned my favorite podcast ever with "Species", as a big fan of animals and biology he was the only person to ever go into so much detail about so many different animal species that i've ever seen, TV shows would never trust their viewer into being smart enough to be given so many details, but Macken did. And so really, I can never promote that podcast enough, it's really something to experience.
I'm gonna give the simple forbidden (partial) answer to why faces matter: Physiognomy. A person who is angry all the time will display this on their face. A person who is anxious, stressed, sleep deprived, etc. Your attitude through life will reflect on your face and be readable.
The irony is they're essentially arguing for inferred traits based on physical ones, which today is considered racist. Yet we have no problem when it's got a scientific label like speciation.
I agree with tinyknott. I'd add that faces are individually identifiable. You'd have to know a person very well to identify them from their hands or from their body/walk with the face hidden.
Thank you so much for having me on, Chris, it was a pleasure. And thank you for your continual promotion of the evolutionary human behavioral sciences; it suits you better than club promotion!
I looked into data on wealth and marriage I saw a paper last year showing that for birth cohorts from 1890s to 1970s, for men, income explains more variance throughout time So, income is now more important than the past for men for their odds of marriage. For women, income negatively predicted marriage, till the last cohorts in the study, so wealtheir women got married less in the past, but for the latest cohorts in the study, it was about equal for wealthier and less wealthy women, but it is moving in the direction of wealthier women being married more. So income is increasingly more important, especially for men, throughout this time period, and it is beginning to become somewhat important for women
During the podcast I heard you mentioned something about the reasons for infidelity. If you should read this could you direct me to any information concerning infidelity.
I appreciate that someone with an anthro background is entering the evi psych conversation- you are badly needed! 🙏🙏 thank you and keep up the great work!
I was hoping they would discuss on tattoo section of the podcast about a study where they found childhood trauma is linked to tattoos and piercings. Would have been interesting to hear how that affects dating behavior and how some people find others with similarities attractive. The study is called "The association of childhood abuse and neglect with tattoos and piercings in the population: evidence from a representative community survey"
Interesting, I'll have to find and read that paper. Especially since my childhood involved quite a bit of abuse and neglect, yet I only have one tattoo and no piercings at 43 years old. The tattoo was done as a memorial to my father after he died from cancer.
I think he's also aware of the fact that a lot of people might take what he says very literally and get down on themselves/seriously affect their self-image. He states he's very data oriented, and so what he says might be more interpreted as a singular objective truth, instead of reflecting the wide variety of preferences and so on...
2 points if I may. 1) opportunity. I know you touched on it but 'opportunity' must be absolutely on the top of the reasons why we end up with who we do, and 2) have you ever included studies into 'Arranged marriages' and how views of one's partner changes over the years. How well do 'Arranged marriages' work. Does the 'wisdom' of the elders actually help in matching couples into productive loving relationships?
Many intelligent, creative men realized that industrial Jobs and classroom education were stifling and monotonous so decided to break free and live with less security and less money while pursuing more meaningful entrepreneurial side hustles, or technical professions where we are our own bosses. Many want work where they have more control over everything and don't mind finding ways to live with less, like getting used instead of new things for example. Many women are doing the opposite, they are putting effort into schools and Jobs now so that they can be independant, have money for travel and property. Women are finally able to get into that lifestyle we are getting out of. Women dont like this because men aren't going for the big bucks like before, yet women want to work so choose to focus less on being there as a partner for a man. It can be easier for women to see men as less than them, unmotivated, undeserving because of this. Men who stay in the 9 to 5 work are often unhappy, boring, uncreative, tired, too busy, sick, and generally worn out by the grind. That's why man began rejecting the industrial employment once they had the chance. Some women can become overly proud of themselves and can fall to the game of pushing others down to lift themselves up. Some lack the compassion and patience they once needed to be in harmony with men now that they don't focus on that as much. Others are distracted and ambitious, thinking of relationships as impossible and too much trouble with all the other stuff they have to do to make it. There is also more of a culture that is synthetic, toxic, unhealthy, nutritionally deficient, alcoholic, smokers, weaker bodies,mentally ill, ugly people. Many people are so into their smart phones that they ruin the time they used to be 100% deeply engaged with a partner. They are distracted, not making eye contact, you need to repeat what you say to them 3 times, their posture is bad, its a selfish dynamic, that an untested technology is producing. Women wanted out of the role of homemaker so the traditional roles went out the window for them. Men decided that if women dont have to follow the rules they wont either. So they can get what we wanted too, an endless stream of dates with no commitmentment or children, no need to spend years on a boring education or a job working for all that extra money a family needs, etc. Now they can focus on drugs, video games, and short term pleasure instead of the bigger disciplined game of family, relationships and work. Now that religión is out of their way some don't feel obligated to think of morality or traditional practices as valuable for them.
Wow usually long YT comments are dumpster fires but this was eloquent and compelling. There's some real tragedy in men and women passing each other by like this.
Jordan Peterson’s whole argument about that woman not being attractive has to do with the wide-spread condition of metabolic disorders which is a crisis in the society and how there’s an attempt to normalize it, specially in light of having just come out of a pandemic with those who suffered the most were those who had those conditions.
you're right. Fat is just the outward appearance of something that internally is life-limiting to millions. 1/4 of the population has fatty liver disease! $4.4 _Trillion_ spent on healthcare is mostly due to that, and that's going to grow to consume all spending yet the stupid US govt. subsidizes this....@@GlutenSensitivityReader
It's odd that these "metabolic disorders" don't seem to exist in Third World countries and never seemed to occur when widespread famine and hunger were a constant threat.
@@jonsnowight9510 incorrect , there are plenty of lesser well off countries that have just as bad an obesity problem because they allow mcdonalds into their country.....
Also it's funny because men get more and more shamed for everything while women get encouraged to do more and more antisocial behavior. The average college girl would be diagnosed with BPD 15 years ago.
@@SpartanHoplite360 that's the point, only a gynocentric society would complain about patriarchy. It's like how redditors like to complain how sexist and right wing Reddit is, which is something you could only say if it wasn't ironically. It's a typical tactic of cultists to continue purging
Well I am overweight so I appreciate the fat models, especially when they're not hourglasses or pear shapes. It's hard to know how clothing will fit on me when I don't see it in different size models. I don't look to them for aspirational beauty but as-is presentation. I don't understand why that's offensive to people.
I’ve been asked over 10 times this winter if I have kids. I’ve never been asked this question once before but this winter I’ve really grown out a beard. Finally I have an answer to this riddle. Thanks Chris and Macken
One thing I think is very wrong is to say that there's no "should" in this question. Health should be attractive, because health is largely heritable and healthy offspring are better to have than not healthy offspring. Anyone whose instincts get rewired away from favoring health will find their lineage ruined over time. This "ultra objectivity" is a cop-out. Just assume that successful long term propagation of the species is good. Now you can say should and should not.
I would be interested to know if, as societal tumult increases, men and women prefer more muscular mates, and as the perceived danger goes down, the desire for muscularity decreases. Considering that environmental factors are contributing to resource scarcity while the world population continues to grow, a future involving combat for scarce resources - land, food, WATER, - will become a reality, and perhaps muscularity in both men and women will signal an ability to survive.
As a single dude who just came off a couple “failed” dates (just not working out but I’m dating with the priority of seeking a long-term relationship), this podcast is absolutely fascinating. I wish you guys talked for 4 hours.
@@murphymackenappreciate it. I’m a little rusty in dating. A buddy recommended I go on a bunch of dates. Work past the nerves and get comfortable with it again. But you gave me a few tips in podcast that I can work on long-term
This dude is a grifter who says a bunch of bs to cater to women and his academia colleagues. Don't buy into this. The most important thing is passing the looks threshold
A better comparison of male facial features versus female facial features than beards versus no beards would be strong jaw lines versus soft rounded more feminine jaw lines.
@@maxpower19711 That is the misconception. Most of these guys are not or only partially feminine and posses very above average masculine features as well, with the jaw being at the forefront due to it being a highly dimorphic visible feature. Dense and dark facial hair, especially beard still remains correlated strongly to androgen receptor sensitivity and can be indicative of a mens other (masculine) features as well. The mixed results in the studies arguably stem from women simply not being sincere, considering most of these studies are surveys. Women are culturally wired to preserve their "good" self-image before others and therefore to be cautious with public acts, that could be controversial. It used to be literally life threatening for a women to be totally genuine in past times. Truth is, reasonable physical Masculinity in a male is most often and undoubtedly preferable, at least for female sexual arousal. Obviously larger stature in form of height or general body frame is extremely dimorphic and desirable for women, while also being a less controversial female preference in society. Consequently women are not afraid to admit the obvious in a socially safe environment.
I believe that women's preference for a partner's social status is protean and varies greatly depending on context. For example, a woman who identifies with a hippie lifestyle might view a man proficient in playing the guitar as possessing an attractive status. Conversely, a successful lawyer may initially look for a partner who shares characteristics with high-profile figures like Harvey Specter. Yet, due to the rarity of such ideal partners, she might instead value other traits that signify competence and respect. Consequently, her options could include professionals like policemen, soldiers, or firefighters, artists from various disciplines, or even a charismatic friend who has recently opened a restaurant. Even if she earns more than her partner, this does not imply that he holds a 'lower' status. The fundamental desire is for a partner who is competent and esteemed. Nevertheless, I find it more challenging to imagine women aspiring to be with the archetype of the attractive, stay-at-home man. Will societal views on this shift swiftly? I tend to think that while behaviors might adapt over short periods, the underlying preferences, which are embedded in evolutionary biology, are likely to evolve over much longer timescales.
I loved that you addressed the “archetype” issue. I think what makes us attractive or not is whether we value what's best in us and leverage it to our advantage. Seeking our best version also involves this.
“Even if she earns more than her partner, this does not imply that he holds a “lower” status.” This. I recall Jordan Peterson recounting a study where women were judging men’s attractiveness on their picture yet attached some characteristics about the person. It was basically how much wealth they have in addition to their level of competence. In a nutshell, you had the useless poor guy who obviously rated low, the useful rich guy who’s going to rate highly, but they also had the rich guy who didn’t earn his wealth and appeared incompetent so he was rated lowly. Then there’s the “poor” guy that was also a valued, well respected and trusted member of his community that people looked up to that rated highly which reinforces your point that absolutely, “the fundamental desire is for a partner who is competent and esteemed.”
On that note wealth doesn't always symbolise competence, but also you can't be competent and poor. Let say you have a set of skills but your not using them to your advantage you may highly esteemed and good natured, but can we say this person is competent? However to bring it back to evolutionary biology part of nesting is measuring how resourceful your mate is. I don't understand why men didn't evolve to have this as well, because they're also parents (maybe it's a social conditioning as some animals have some type resource seeking ritual for nesting). So if the guy is poor, it unrealistic to stick with that guy. And it is not personal but this is one of the things women have to consider when they're preparing to have a child. It is necessary to ensure that your offspring has a safe environment to grow up and you are also financially secure enough to tend your 100% to them in their infancy (like be present). So it contradicts what you said on women not caring about wealth. However as you said context is important if you are not marrying maybe man's wealth don't matter as much.
A friend of mine had a car accident when she was a kid, she flew thru front window, got stuck in it with neck exposed and carotid artery exposed. They saved her, did basic reconstruction surgery as good as they could 30 years ago. She grew up embracing her scars, she is confident, strong, entrepreneur, independent, has cue of men running after her, and always posts on social media that her scars made her value in herself and others the inner beauty. She often gets asked why doesn't she want to do plastic surgery to remove the scars, she says she wouldn't be true to herself self if she would remove the scars 😊
I am not a scientist myself, yet a woman who always preferred tall and slender, yet more feminine-faced guys, so I can speak out of my experience. NO. I liked such guys even as a pretty young person, before I was taking any birth pills. Later, when I was taking contraceptives in my thirties, nothing changed - I still had the very same preference. So from my perspective - no, never. My idea, on the other hand, is this is because of neotenic preferences - more feminine faced guys look a) more like cute babies, so they are easier to be loved and cared for just like babies are, and b) they seem not to be as dangerous as masculine-faced, strong males. So, it's both good sides: it's both more positive (more love) and less negative (less danger).
Seems pretty straight forward, both men and women tend to enjoy seeing feminine features, hense most advertising tends to show attractive feminine women
@@realistic_delinquentgender is literally BASED ON THE EXISTENCE OF SEXES…. If they are different, it’s because people keep stupidly using Gender in place of Seggs
He mentions that women are putting in a lot of work with makeup, etc, but they seem to put in very little work into their personalities, avoiding high body counts (if you know what i mean), fitness (at least in my area), things that would actually make them more attractive to men.
The problem with selecting women for low body count is you’re also selecting for low sex drive . This preference can cause you to end up stuck in a sexless marriage if you are obsessive about it .
@@jposhpaws2588 HORSE MANURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 🐎 💩 I got a low body count but I’m hornier than pack of Triceratops. Check yo self before you wreck yo self. Brother 😂🙏❤️
@@monikawojciechowska8964why? I’m a man and I enjoyed listening to it. the guest does seem very female friendly tho, so it does make sense that women would like it
@user-zv7cs7xe1x that's kind of my impression. Some statement made by red pill men seem to be 'the holy truth', and then comes someone like Macken who says 'well, that's not what the data seems to suggest ' and all of a sudden men go mad. No wonder his audience is mostly women, men prefer to watch something that doesn't deny their red pill ideology and doesn't hurt their ego.
@user-zv7cs7xe1x I'm not going to criticize anything they have to say about women. Similar to my view on feminism, I would have no position in which to argue if the claims were only about women. That's not the case, though. As long as they're making claims about men that are more reflective of women's perceptions of men than an accurate assessment of the average man's perspective, then I can't see it as anything more than pandering. In the end, this is just more fuel for division.
This was great, very insightful. I love hearing different perspectives because many times two things can be true at the same time. Dialectics is important to understand in conversations like this. I believe when it comes to problematic behavior, it is a human condition problem rather than a gender problem. Men and women can do horrific things, and with the differing characteristics of both sexes these actions may manifest differently. Men and women shouldn’t be against each other, men and women together should be more forgiving towards the gender as a whole. Men have done terrible things to me and I know there are some cruel people out there, but I’d never blame the gender as a whole..I know there are some wonderful kind men too. Once we realize this we can function a lot better in society ❤
I think preference for socioeconomic status is very malleable, but preference for status overall is not. In a more egalitarian society with more social safety nets and affordable housing, how much wealth one has does not matter as much in proportion to other potentially attractive traits. Anecdotally, I don't make as much money or have as advanced a degree as my partner, but I'm very attractive in other masculine ways, e.g. athleticism, bravery, assertiveness, martial ability, etc.
Macken Murphy is more concerned about his career than speaking the truth. If you want to know who rules over you its the ones you are not allowed to speak ill of.
20:00 I'd say that the externality of facial appearances being more valued and observed when compared to other body parts like your example (hands) is because of multiple reasons, I'll name a few that I can think of on the top of my head, I'm not an expert but im just using logical reasoning impose a hypothesis. 1) Your face is closer to the sun than the rest of your body so theoretically it would absorb more UV damage when compared to other body parts and so it's a better judgement for genetic damage. 2) We naturally look at peoples faces more than other body parts because thats where our externalities of expression lies, like our eyebrows, eyes and mouthes/teeth. 3) The skin on the faces is quite thin compared to elsewhere which would lead to better observations of constricted blood vessels and thus tiredness, think about your eyebags (the thinnest skin on our bodies) and if your tired then that means you've exerted more energy to produce, meaning your more likely to have worse survival traits. 4) Our teeth can allow us to determine someones diet, as we all know sugar makes our teeth yellowish and thus it would signal excess consumption and so your more likely to have beneficial survivial traits, its the opposite now however due to the processing of sugar cane. (Edit) 5) Our heads obviously contain our brain, the most important organ to our survival and the size of our face and damage to the face is a more significant factor for possible brain damage and possible inflamation. 6) Our hair tells us quite a bit about our nutritional obtainance and thus our level of nutritional consumption meaning were more likely to have beneficial survival characteristics. That's the 6 things I can think of but there could be more, like eye colour to determine genetic diversity, how big our nasal airways are so we can absorb more oxygen, etc.
*The Guest and the Topic are very eye-opening and are a confirmation of what most people would expect without the influence of outside sources.* *It is always a blessing to be able to reevaluate your opinion while listening to a well-educated, well-spoken guest.* *_The world doesn't seem to be so black and white after all_*
Macken just did a podcast with FD Signifier, I think Chris and Macken might be in oposite sides of the ideological spectrum, or maybe not in oposite sides but definitely far away from each other ideologicaly speaking.
*1) Within the first 30 min, Murphy claims that sex & gender are different. Wait a sec, that's idea smuggling.* The sex/gender distinction is ideological, not scientific (as we know from the ideologues like John Money and Judith Butler who appropriated the term "gender" to that end). I'm still waiting to see if Chris questions Murphy about his ideological bias. *2) Murphy disparages lay people who cite a study without extensively knowing findings in the field.* By that logic, individual studies are essentially worthless. *3) Murphy seems to disdain people who translate "theoretical" ev psych findings into "application."* But practicality is precisely what makes science relevant.
@@rafresendenrafresenden.1644 _sex & gender ARE different_ No, they are not, and simply asserting they are doesn't make it so. Moreover, *the sex/gender distinction is a purely ideological belief not backed by any evidence, data, or reasoning,* so anyone espousing it deserves all the scrutiny and skepticism as a pusher of any other religion.
@@rafresendenrafresenden.1644 _sex and gender has been study for thousands of years_ Sex and gender have been *studied* for hundreds of years (the concept of modern scientific "study" only originated after the 1700s). Sex referred to male/female as usual, and *gender was always and only a linguistic term referring to nouns as male/female/neuter in languages like Latin* (gender was NEVER applied to humans until ideologues like Money and Butler did so after the 1950s). I tire of having to educate you. Read more before commenting on a topic you clearly know nothing about, or try to troll elsewhere.
This was a great episode. Also, I think tattoos are very attractive, but it does depend on the tattoos. It can really highlight your great taste, or lack of taste
SCIENCE: Most of my followers are women. My mentor is a women. Coincidently, I don't seem to say anything that may be deemed offensive about women. I use extreme outliers to introduce doubt. I mention something that "may not be true" because it could support my story - which is totally a good scientific practice. Using correlational studies and not mentioning that there could very likely be confounders or other bias to not draw causal conclusions. CONCLUSION: Sad this kind of propaganda might work to convince the average person who thinks this all sounds Science and is a lot "nicer".
As long as it doesn't contribute too much to your overall looks 'balance', and minor scar etc can actually add to attraction from females e.g. jason Mamoa or Anakin skywalker in RoTS
A factor that came to mind a few times was expectation of family, specifically parents. Even friends. Whether it’s looks or social economic preferences and actual choice.
The pill probably affects those results, I would think... Do we know if that's a factor that has been considered in these studies? Because we do know that it affects choice of mates...
I feel like MM is someone who has read all the right things but still just doesn't get it - Everything he says is like he is trying to avoid saying something that might be perceived as negative or "shaming" someone.. He just can't connect the dots..
This guy doesn't understand that jordan Peterson wasn't attracting the model. He was attacking the woke ideology that is the source reason for why she was on the cover.
I think it’s also worth remembering - similar to women - men aren’t necessarily looking a certain way FOR women. As a guy who is always in the gym, we’re doing it for ourselves and even honestly for other guys and the bond - vs to get a woman.
Just wanted to note, that when I’m looking at a guys height on a dating site, I’m always thinking about it in relation to myself. I’m 5’4” and I prefer a guy that is not so tall. But I’m definitely more attracted to a guy with broad shoulders and nice arms 😊.
What a man finds attractive when looking for a long term relationship can be very different from what a man finds attractive when looking for a recreational use only relationship. Most women do not know that there is a difference between the two.
Tons of people talk about how facial attractiveness is very important (WHICH IT IS) but having a healthy bodyfat percentage is literally the best thing you can do for facial aesthetics. For ~95% of people, the reason why they're not attractive is for 1 of 3 reasons 1. Too Fat 2. Don't have a wardrobe 3. Don't go to the barbershop every other week. Rarely is somebody, especially facially, is FUBAR.
Macken presents himself well and has interesting points, but I wish he would commit to a side in arguments. He should contextualize the research he’s familiar with ie western men tend to prefer a BMI in women between x and y.
The waist to hip ratio for women having little to no bearing on fertility kind of reminds me of the female preference for tall men, on the assumption that they are better fighters. Doesn't necessarily pan out but it may be the best indicator you've got just on first look.
6:28 - who would ever say ‘we decide’ what’s masculine and feminine? Dimorphic traits dictate that inference. It’s most certainly not a will-based decision in that regard.
Agreed. For example, people tend to focus on the left side of the face. Similarly, people tend to focus on one facial feature over others (the eyes), so they may not have a balanced view of the overall masculinity and femininity in one's face. That bias doesn't eliminate difference.
Women don't generally want a large age gap ... YES. It's men that want this, sure, but not women. (Ok, let's see all the disgruntled RP comments roll in 😂)
could you elaborate? I've never heard it questioned that women (especially young ones) prefer older men. I'm legit interested to hear the opposite take
@@jasonfabo7126 well I’m 20, me or any of my college mates are not with anyone above the age of 23. Honestly most people date their own age even 1 or 2 years age gap is kind of rare. For me personally, I wouldn’t date someone 3 years older also because I’m in a very different phase of life than some who is 24 and up. Men who are older wanting to get with me just makes me feel like they only want me for my age and they have this sort of revenge fantasy on women their age because they did not get attention when they were younger. I also do not feel safe around older men approaching me.
I always thought the Romeo and Juliet age gap made more sense considering women supposedly mature about 4 years faster than men. And honestly I wouldn’t mind a large-ish age gap. At 32 the youngest I’d go is like 25
@@RM-gq5jv I can understand your point of view, but honestly a good chunk of us (not all cause I get what you mean) are normal guys. I don’t exclusively look for younger women, but I wouldn’t mind it. And tbh the whole “life phase” makes little sense. We all go through life at different rates. I graduated with a bachelor’s degree at 26. I lost my virginity at 27. By that logic, I’m like 5 years behind on life. I’m 32 now with no house yet. So I’m further behind. I grew up poor and lacked resources if you’re wondering. I’m average in intelligence as well. Also it’s kind of a cultural thing. In Mexico, for example, age gaps are pretty normal. In many other countries it’s normal to have a bit of an age gap. In college my 22 year old female friend dated a 29 year old guy who was also in college. I just ask for open mindedness that not all older men are monsters. If I find a woman who is 30, great. If I find one who is 25, great.
@@joaquin67 I get that but there’s a difference between a 20 year old and a 25 year old. By 25 you’ve been an adult for about 7 years and know a bit about what you want in life.
One satisfying result from my dissertation research was proving that laypeople's predictions about the outcome of my research were the exact opposite of what the facts stated. They were biased in their predictions because of preconceived prejudices against a particular pattern. Objectively measuring this pattern allowed the actual behaviours to be revealed. Very satisfying to point at a figure and say 'the facts don't lie'.
I think claiming that morbid obesity is ever attractive is an impossible stretch--sure, there is going to be variety between populations that is mediated by the environmental factors, but people find signal of physical health attractive... If you are so skinny that you are starving to death, thats not attractive. Likewise, if you're so fat that your health is in serious question, that's also not attractive almost by definition.
Obviously you’re looking into the context of a Western who grew up in a society that doesn’t experience food scarcity. They literally said that a woman who is obese (now I don’t think they specify how obese in the episode) are more attractive in certain parts of the world where there are food scarcity because being chubby is linked to social economic status in a poor and starving environment.
@@TheRedemptionRain just to add to your point, he does mention some societies find women at BMI 38 attractive, and that's pretty clearly heavily obese.
I think you missed the point where it was attractive was in a place where people tend to have a lot of food problems. I don't want to attack you but this is the problem people have, they take a result, take the context out and apply it to the wide population...just no
On average, men are bigger and stronger and so historically have been the default protector/providers and women have been dependent on them. This lead to men focusing more on obtaining money and women more on maximizing their looks. We both are attracted to both. As society has changed and the ability to provide depends less on physical size, relationships are shifting to be more about compatibility than sex for money. It's not that men are less attractive or women just want your money, it's just that those have been the typical gender roles. When everyone can protect and provide for themselves and take care of their appearance, these differences will minimize.
Money hasn’t been a thing historically. It was mostly hunting for resources “food” men were chosen for their athletic bodies, height “tall, and the popular hunter skull “defined jawline” and health which can be assessed from face. these all were and still indicators of male ability to acquire resources “food” and physically protect his family. But also testosterone is on the decline and men aren’t as physically active as before which could explain the mass decline in male physical attractiveness. However this data was conducted from dating app’s profile so I don’t believe most men are unattractive, but mostly just those who are on dating apps.
The gender differences in caring about looks are actually bigger in Western countries. The gender differences in caring about income are smaller in Western countries, but this gap will never reach 0 as long as women are the ones who get pregnant and give birth.
Good grief. It’s ok if you like bigger gals. No need to be offended on behalf of women. He talked around the answer for half an hour… reiterating his non-answer.
I'm dating a man with a fairly masculine face (the brow ridge, a strong jaw line, hirsute) but he has a somewhat feminine physique (he is very slender for a man, with a slender chest and arms) and certain mannerisms that are vaguely feminine, which i had noticed that I like. I dated a very masculine guy once and he was too masculine for me. Very aggressive, sexually, and - weirdly - too strong. It was fun for a bit, but ultimately overwhelming.
I stopped listening when this guy said that Peterson was delusional to call that woman unattractive. This guy's mostly female audience must love this bs. My mom almost threw up when i showed her that "model"and she's from a poor country Also just because some starving tribe finds fat women attractive because "she must have food" doesn't make it remotely relevant as evidence by men's repulsion
I fail to see any point in history, including those of food scarcity, where I prefer a hambeast over a defined, well proportioned woman. IDK, call me crazy, but a hambeast shows gluttony, sloth, and greed in character which proves to be rather awful motherly traits. I also fail to see the point in history with food scarcity where a woman would even be able to be a hambeast. It's scarce remember? She also has to actually move around to acquire that food, resulting in caloric loss. A well-defined woman who goes to the gym signals not only an abundance of caloric surplus (because she needs calories to exercise), but the discipline and physical prowess, which are traits I'd love to be expressed amongst my children. It also shows way more drive to be able to all that than sit around and eat to get fat. I also don't think it's fair to criticize Peterson's view when you are referencing data from an archaic age. Assuming your hypothesis is correct, food scarcity is NOT a thing at the moment, therefore the input variables change. It takes very minimal effort to be a hambeast at the moment. It might be why most people don't find them attractive.
When it comes to attraction, it's about behaviors that we all taught from at an early age. Unfortunately those who weren't taught, they are the ones who will struggle. On top of that, society treats attraction as a black box experience where it will just happen when you are confident in yourself. In reality, its all hormonal and psychological which will increase attraction. Its like when singers purposely dress seductively to increase tickets sell. Its a market gimic and they paid people to work it out for them. Its funny because in others stages of life we explain things in step by step action. For example, im training to be a doctor, and im actually told step by step how to talk to a patient. Im even taught how to make someone open up and listen to you. It would be nice if people would do the same thing with dating because all of it is transferable
Ya I had to spend 10,000 hours djing to offset my stutter. But by the time i left my bedroom err "the studio", I had aged out and had to deploy one of their own. Social rank perception hacks and nekkidsxy body count exploits ftw ! :D
My sales training classes have been very useful in dating. Specifically, the IMPACT method is basically a hack to find out how to appeal to what the other party wants. It works really well in dating women, because they love it when you ask questions about them.
What I find attractive as a 36 yr old female: Height doesn’t get me, I’m 5ft 6. I’ll be with tall or short. I prefer a man clean. He can be hairy or not, I just prefer one who is manicured and clean. One who wears fresh clothes and their style matching mine. If they have a beard, they keep it clean. For body shape, one that likes to be outdoors. I’m not into chubby men, reason why is their future health. If they are a bicyclist or hiker is a massive plus. One who is a little tan but not dark or pale. A smile with clean teeth. They don’t need to be straight. Someone I can talk with, someone I can let my hair down and feel comfortable with. Someone who is patient and easy going. 😎 that’s my mix.
In today's cultural landscape, Chris symbolizes reality, while his guest embodies the formal educational institutions. The dynamic between them is truly uncanny.
How attractive beards are totally depends on the individual and their beard. Some look clean and are shaped in a way that suits the individual's face shape. They look good. Some just look like they're storing crumbs from previous meals and scratchy/uncomfortable to kiss. Whether the beard fits in with the rest of the person's style and demeanour vs looks like it's based purely on not wanting to / forgetting to / being too lazy to shave matters. Just as you'll find many different websites helping women choose the right clothes for their body shape I think men could use a website helping them to select a beard style that suits their face. I'm not surprised at all at the huge variation in research results RE beards because beards themselves and how they compliment the face they're on are sooo variable.
The most attractive eyes are much larger than normal, bigger pupil size of course and color doesn't really matter. Not to wide or narrow on the face as well.
Is there a study where women grade men by testosterone? Is there any correlation on the women level of testosterone and the man’s level of testosterone? Or the perception of high/low testosterone?
"Ive got a broken nose from boxing. What does that tell protential mates, it says for some reason I 'couldn't handle it', right?" I've actually heard numerous women say that my broken nose makes me look much more rugged, masculine and overall more attractive than if it was "some cute little perfect nose". In fact I think all of us can agree some form of damage (crooked nose, scars, etc) make people look much more attractive vs weak.
There's some research on this. For scars, it may help w short-term (but not long-term) attractiveness. But a broken nose is going to be a bridge too far for most (pun intended).
My husband was totally unfazed by the beginnings of his cauliflower ear from bjj, in fact I think he actually thinks they look cool...Can't say I was as excited 😂
@@tempsodaas a non-Jiujitsu guy with a lot of BJJ friends, I've always felt like cauliflower ear extends far beyond the border of what counts as "attractive damage". It just looks gnarly as fuck. The same way a bump in the nose bridge is one thing, but a massively split lip is another. Uncommon severe soft-tissue damage is rarely attractive regardless of the circumstances.
Yeah he is talking bullshit here. Depends on the context. A guy who is not a stranger to physical confrontation, could definitely be a protector. Rather than a beta male who is scared of conflict
I loved this episode, and thought the interaction was good. Yes, there was a lot of “in general” and caveats, but I think that was to be fair to the research.
As a guy who suffered what my surgeons called "catastrophic facial trauma" (complete nasal avulsion and lacerations to the upper right of the face and forehead) I do pretty ok. It was a car accident, I was passenger, my scars are bad ass though. Oh yeah 6 surgeries and I got a new nose made.
I enjoy hearing new information. It came across a little toward the pedestalizing of women, but that was expected from the mouths of young men. The one takeaway I found most interesting was the attractiveness of women (by size) related to the economic environment. But for the most part it seems that the data is all over the place, bc people are complicated and diverse and more interesting than we can even comprehend on paper.
Hello you savages. Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - chriswillx.com/books/ Here’s the timestamps:
00:00 What Actually Makes an Attractive Face?
05:30 Why Masculine Faces Can Cause Concern for Women
13:56 The Different Signals of Make-Up & Tan
18:17 What Makes an Eye Attractive?
20:20 Why We Are So Drawn to Faces
26:28 Do Women Like Muscular Men?
31:34 Do Men Like Heavier Women?
42:11 Men’s Tastes Are Shaped by Social Ecology
46:10 Is There a Generally Attractive Waist to Hip Ratio?
54:27 What Role Does Height Play in Attraction?
1:02:12 What Happens When the Female is the Breadwinner
1:12:14 Worst Mating & Dating Myths
1:16:00 Are Women Really More Picky Than Men?
1:26:00 Discriminating Based on Hair Colour
1:30:59 Do Men Want Wider Age Gaps as They Age?
1:35:16 How Attractive Are Tattoos?
1:41:20 What You Need to Know About Stated v Revealed Preferences
1:51:37 The Counter-Signal of Saying ‘I Don’t Know’
2:01:28 Where to Find Macken
Great show today. Happy belated birthday
As a female, anything over 6’2” is just too much. You become like a newborn giraffe - awkward. 😂
Hey Chris! I really want to know if you've seen the recent top NETFLIX show "CAN I TELL YOU A SECRET?" It's from your neck of the woods! The accents are the same to my ears, anyway..without getting into too much detail- I questioned for a good while if it was a parody, or would ever find a grain of reason. or if the 4 people filmed in it also produced it...
I'd love to hear what you think of this culture banger from Northern England, and if it's an accurate representation of how exciting and scary "true crime" gets in those parts. Maybe I was too harsh on the 2 part limited series! Maybe i need more compassion for the poor victimized igfluncers? Idk.. I HOPE you can talk about it sometime bc I watched it the WHOLE (miserably frustrating) TIME thinking.. "Chris would probably love to tear this up' 😂 👏🏻
This is hands down the most attractive guest you've had
Congratulations on your first citation 🎉
“Able to withstand the insults of their environment” one of the smartest things I’ve heard and explains why symmetry is attractive
Literally read this as he said it. Creepy
Well said!
Health & regularity of development seems to sum it up- a visible signal nothing terrible went wrong during development.
@@Rickai85 Indeed, very synchronistically symetrical. I wasn't right on the sentence, but I was also very close to the place where he said it as I read it.
“Hey ladies, I don’t have horrific facial trauma.” Is going in my tinder bio.
😂 I'd go with "do my conspicuous fat deposits look big in this?"
Bois, I'm still just tryin to calculate my mating success over here - is it number of mates? Quality of mates? Sex over a lifetime? Forget it; I'm goin back to bar hoppin.
😂😂😂@@tempsoda
😂
lol'd@@tempsoda
Around 19:30 he talks about how eye color matters less if you're in a room of people with the same eye color, but if you're the odd one out color wise, it may benefit you. This reminds me of one time when I went to a Lamborghini dealership. They had like 10 of the same model, and it made them seem sooo much less interesting and valuable, compared to seeing one alone on the road. I was taken aback by how subconsciously they seemed so much less cool when there were a bunch of them sitting together in one place.
Great observation
Scarcity creates more demand…
Way back when (I'm dating myself here), I crossed the English Channel on the ferry & there were two Lamborghini Countachs down below where the cars were. I remember thinking it was so cool & glamorous to see them in person.
Basically to sum that episode up "No one really knows for sure"
Indeed. Like most podcasts.
Not true. You missed the pattern. What makes you attractive depends on the context, but it's always the thing that's rarer - because evolution strives for diversity. So: bearded when all others are clean-shaven and vice versa, blue eyes when all other eyes are brown, etc. Look at your surroundings, and you will know how you can stand out from your peers.
Depends on the girl in my experience
Truth@@Mjr47
I'd say attraction comes down to different permutations of:
looks/evolutionary traits
personality (funny/witty, intelligent, integrity, self-esteem, honesty, emotional/social intelligence)
finance
passion/hobbies/skills.
Then people have different "genre" preferences: business, intellectual, creative, sporty/warrior, rational, religious/secular etc.
Then there are unhealthy (physical/emotional abusers), taboo(kids/animals) and superficial (gold-diggers, trophy-wives)attractions .
In most cases, I think being a well rounded, emotionally and psychologically healthy person and having average or above looks = An attractive person.
Being a guy with a very feminine face myself, I can definitely attest through my own personal experience that there are a lot of women that are very attracted to feminine features in men. Men are made to believe that if you aren't hyper masculine in every way then you're destined to be an incel, but in reality this is not true. I'm 26 but look like a 16 year old because the way my face is, and very often get bullied and shamed for it, but at the same time a lot of girls have told me that I am very attractive. Dudes are always shocked whenever there is an attractive girl interested in me because I am the complete opposite of what you would call a "masculine" male adult, and because of this I was made to think something was wrong with the way I look, but I'm beginning to accept myself for who I am now.
I am almost 28 and people think I am 19 and I not a single person in my entire life said something nice about my looks
@@deralufe9094 well I think you're stunning. There. Now go on have a fab day ❤
Have you dated any of these girls? Genuinely curious. In my experience a woman's words are worthless - only her actions communicate truth.
This also lines up well with the studies around the pill, which causes women to go for more feminine faces (ie. caring in appearance) whereas once off contraception - there is a swing to classic male looks. Talking notable shifts, not everyone of course. Fellow youthful face owner, now bearded, and noticing a distinct shift in the type of women who approach me now.
@@andyk9735 Yes I have. I have fucked up most of my dating opportunities up due to my own internal issues, but I never had trouble getting girls.
1:39:54 "Sometimes you don't want to look more beautiful, you want to signal underlying personality traits."
Brilliant concise summary of that point!
Now we also need a podcast with hoe_math hahaha
He will never do hoe_math. The dude is scared to have a discussion with Rollo Tomassi. Hoe Math's work is derived straight out of The Rational Male.
This would be great 🙌
Was going to comment this
Hoe_math would probably take a sledgehammer to a lot of what Chris believes
Chris is a Purple Pilled Alpha. His beliefs conflict with @hoe_math, Rollo Tomassi (The Rational Male), Rich Cooper (Unplugged Alpha), Dr. Orion Taraban (Psychacks), etc.
Ok . This guy seems very conscious not to offend women
He's in academia, he has to tow the party line
his career depends on it lmao
Yup once he claimed tall girls have dating the hardest I knew what kind of guy he was 😂😂😂. He also won't admit that lots of women value status and preselection over anything in most cases.
No. He tries not to overstate the case or misrepresent the data. Instead, he draws reasonable conclusions that don't satisfy our desire for simple black or white answers to complex topics.
@@CulinaryGuide nah he doesn't live in the real world if he thinks dating is harder for women in any capacity. He also claims more men don't lower their physical standards which I definitely don't agree with. Most men date down.
Chris Williamson got him here. He won't admit that women believe in hypergamy, but it's true.
I can tell you that I've dated many PhDs in DC (I have just 2 bachelor's). They tell me that I'm very attractive and a good person, but ultimately end up leaving me, because I don't have the status (careerwise), or don't make as much funds.
Hypergamy is very real!
Only two bachelors!? 😁
Well, to be fair, if a woman is going to make herself vulnerable enough to put her career aside to give you children, then it stands to reason that she wants to make sure that you can pay the bills while she's mothering in the early years of those children's lives. I chose to marry a carpenter and suffered greatly for it because I had to work full-time and then come home and do everything. It was not fun. It was not pleasant and I missed out with my daughter a lot because I was run ragged due to the fact that I did not participate in hypergamy.
@@Mmmmkaaay The point is that even when financial security isn't a factor women still date hypergamously. Its dating up SOCIO-economically. Its not just about $$$...its about the mans status. Finances play a large part about the mans status and is the easiest thing to measure. But its not the only criteria that women use to date hypergamously.
I didn't say it wasn't real. Women clearly mate "hypergamously" in terms of resources, on average, and express preferences congruent with that. Me and Chris were chatting about how flexible these preferences and behaviors may or may not be.
To be frank, I think most people will be able to hear that our discussion was not at all about "Is it real?" but whether it is flexible enough to accommodate recent social shifts.
@@R-vw3uz Well what else is factored into "status" besides money? Fame? I mean, not many people are famous in proportion to the population.
Perhaps this speaks to the fact that successful women have a harder time finding a mate because they think in their mind. Well, if I have a PhD he should at least have a PhD too. Now that women are educated, it's harder for them to find a man that is at least at the same level. Whereas a successful man will marry a bartender just because she's hot and doesn't care about what her job is or how intelligent she is.
Macken probably runned my favorite podcast ever with "Species", as a big fan of animals and biology he was the only person to ever go into so much detail about so many different animal species that i've ever seen, TV shows would never trust their viewer into being smart enough to be given so many details, but Macken did. And so really, I can never promote that podcast enough, it's really something to experience.
Fav comment. Recording a new ep tomorrow btw.
I'm gonna give the simple forbidden (partial) answer to why faces matter: Physiognomy. A person who is angry all the time will display this on their face. A person who is anxious, stressed, sleep deprived, etc. Your attitude through life will reflect on your face and be readable.
The irony is they're essentially arguing for inferred traits based on physical ones, which today is considered racist. Yet we have no problem when it's got a scientific label like speciation.
@@Galvvyyeah, but now everything is considered racist. Legit i've heard people saying that learning another language is apropiation.
I agree with tinyknott. I'd add that faces are individually identifiable. You'd have to know a person very well to identify them from their hands or from their body/walk with the face hidden.
Your subconscious manifests through your physical body
@@user-jb5my7ly5fIt is Appropriation, taking and spreading, but it's not Misappropriation which the bad thing or theft for cool points or profit.
There is a big difference between short-term and long-term mate selection
There's also a big difference between r and k selection
"Not allowed" to notice that there's a gap between various groups in that context
Thank you so much for having me on, Chris, it was a pleasure. And thank you for your continual promotion of the evolutionary human behavioral sciences; it suits you better than club promotion!
I looked into data on wealth and marriage
I saw a paper last year showing that for birth cohorts from 1890s to 1970s, for men, income explains more variance throughout time
So, income is now more important than the past for men for their odds of marriage.
For women, income negatively predicted marriage, till the last cohorts in the study, so wealtheir women got married less in the past, but for the latest cohorts in the study, it was about equal for wealthier and less wealthy women, but it is moving in the direction of wealthier women being married more.
So income is increasingly more important, especially for men, throughout this time period, and it is beginning to become somewhat important for women
During the podcast I heard you mentioned something about the reasons for infidelity. If you should read this could you direct me to any information concerning infidelity.
Ugh, what a detestable attempt at frame control.
Let's make it simple..money makes any man attractive to a woman..fact😂😂😂
I appreciate that someone with an anthro background is entering the evi psych conversation- you are badly needed! 🙏🙏 thank you and keep up the great work!
I was hoping they would discuss on tattoo section of the podcast about a study where they found childhood trauma is linked to tattoos and piercings. Would have been interesting to hear how that affects dating behavior and how some people find others with similarities attractive. The study is called "The association of childhood abuse and neglect with tattoos and piercings in the population: evidence from a representative community survey"
Interesting, I'll have to find and read that paper. Especially since my childhood involved quite a bit of abuse and neglect, yet I only have one tattoo and no piercings at 43 years old. The tattoo was done as a memorial to my father after he died from cancer.
don't think this guy is man enough to call himself out that way.
I experienced 0 childhood trauma and have tattoos. I think they’re just more normal now
Really interesting conversation. However, it feels like everything Macken says, goes through a certain filter first…
Agreed
A bit like he was the training model for Gemini
I think it's a good sign that he's being thoughtful about what he's saying
He's gotta keep his job.
I think he's also aware of the fact that a lot of people might take what he says very literally and get down on themselves/seriously affect their self-image. He states he's very data oriented, and so what he says might be more interpreted as a singular objective truth, instead of reflecting the wide variety of preferences and so on...
2 points if I may. 1) opportunity. I know you touched on it but 'opportunity' must be absolutely on the top of the reasons why we end up with who we do, and 2) have you ever included studies into 'Arranged marriages' and how views of one's partner changes over the years. How well do 'Arranged marriages' work. Does the 'wisdom' of the elders actually help in matching couples into productive loving relationships?
Arranged is not the same as forced. Arranged = they have a choice to say no if they do not like them. Do not find them attractive etc.
"There is no exquisite beauty... without some strangeness in the proportion." - Edgar Allan Poe
7footer, stealing this, thanks
I love that quote. It’s been true for the types I’ve been attracted to.
Many intelligent, creative men realized that industrial Jobs and classroom education were stifling and monotonous so decided to break free and live with less security and less money while pursuing more meaningful entrepreneurial side hustles, or technical professions where we are our own bosses. Many want work where they have more control over everything and don't mind finding ways to live with less, like getting used instead of new things for example. Many women are doing the opposite, they are putting effort into schools and Jobs now so that they can be independant, have money for travel and property. Women are finally able to get into that lifestyle we are getting out of. Women dont like this because men aren't going for the big bucks like before, yet women want to work so choose to focus less on being there as a partner for a man. It can be easier for women to see men as less than them, unmotivated, undeserving because of this. Men who stay in the 9 to 5 work are often unhappy, boring, uncreative, tired, too busy, sick, and generally worn out by the grind. That's why man began rejecting the industrial employment once they had the chance. Some women can become overly proud of themselves and can fall to the game of pushing others down to lift themselves up. Some lack the compassion and patience they once needed to be in harmony with men now that they don't focus on that as much. Others are distracted and ambitious, thinking of relationships as impossible and too much trouble with all the other stuff they have to do to make it. There is also more of a culture that is synthetic, toxic, unhealthy, nutritionally deficient, alcoholic, smokers, weaker bodies,mentally ill, ugly people. Many people are so into their smart phones that they ruin the time they used to be 100% deeply engaged with a partner. They are distracted, not making eye contact, you need to repeat what you say to them 3 times, their posture is bad, its a selfish dynamic, that an untested technology is producing. Women wanted out of the role of homemaker so the traditional roles went out the window for them. Men decided that if women dont have to follow the rules they wont either. So they can get what we wanted too, an endless stream of dates with no commitmentment or children, no need to spend years on a boring education or a job working for all that extra money a family needs, etc. Now they can focus on drugs, video games, and short term pleasure instead of the bigger disciplined game of family, relationships and work. Now that religión is out of their way some don't feel obligated to think of morality or traditional practices as valuable for them.
Wow. You articulated our society very well. I'm impressed.
Wow usually long YT comments are dumpster fires but this was eloquent and compelling. There's some real tragedy in men and women passing each other by like this.
Jordan Peterson’s whole argument about that woman not being attractive has to do with the wide-spread condition of metabolic disorders which is a crisis in the society and how there’s an attempt to normalize it, specially in light of having just come out of a pandemic with those who suffered the most were those who had those conditions.
He could call them fat and he'd be right. They don't care. They'd say "So you're calling me FAT?"
you're right. Fat is just the outward appearance of something that internally is life-limiting to millions. 1/4 of the population has fatty liver disease! $4.4 _Trillion_ spent on healthcare is mostly due to that, and that's going to grow to consume all spending yet the stupid US govt. subsidizes this....@@GlutenSensitivityReader
It's odd that these "metabolic disorders" don't seem to exist in Third World countries and never seemed to occur when widespread famine and hunger were a constant threat.
@@jonsnowight9510 incorrect , there are plenty of lesser well off countries that have just as bad an obesity problem because they allow mcdonalds into their country.....
@@jonsnowight9510maybe because they aren't fat
As with all social scientists, Macken Murphy is quick to chastise men’s behavior, but will caveat into oblivion any antisocial behaviors from women
Yes. Academic people are unable to be completely honest
He contradicted his own logic by chastising Peterson which shows how manipulative he is
Also it's funny because men get more and more shamed for everything while women get encouraged to do more and more antisocial behavior. The average college girl would be diagnosed with BPD 15 years ago.
Almost as if we live in a gynocentric society not a patriarchy
@@SpartanHoplite360 that's the point, only a gynocentric society would complain about patriarchy. It's like how redditors like to complain how sexist and right wing Reddit is, which is something you could only say if it wasn't ironically. It's a typical tactic of cultists to continue purging
As a woman When I see an outfit modeled by an overweight model it turns me off. I’m not attracted to the outfit anymore.
@@eduardomartin8510 So why do white women promote Lizzo so much?
Same. I want to get an idea of how the clothing will look on ME. Since I'm not overweight I just can't picture myself in the outfit.
@@suezcontours6653because if she's "attractive," then how hot are they?
@@KhanSphere What? Nobody thinks Lizzo is attractive, she's a stereotype
Well I am overweight so I appreciate the fat models, especially when they're not hourglasses or pear shapes. It's hard to know how clothing will fit on me when I don't see it in different size models. I don't look to them for aspirational beauty but as-is presentation. I don't understand why that's offensive to people.
I’ve been asked over 10 times this winter if I have kids. I’ve never been asked this question once before but this winter I’ve really grown out a beard. Finally I have an answer to this riddle. Thanks Chris and Macken
Lol. You look 40. Riddle solved
This man speaks like someone who doesn’t want to lose their job
Yeah so unauthentic and not genuine. I got that impression too.
One thing I think is very wrong is to say that there's no "should" in this question. Health should be attractive, because health is largely heritable and healthy offspring are better to have than not healthy offspring. Anyone whose instincts get rewired away from favoring health will find their lineage ruined over time. This "ultra objectivity" is a cop-out. Just assume that successful long term propagation of the species is good. Now you can say should and should not.
I would be interested to know if, as societal tumult increases, men and women prefer more muscular mates, and as the perceived danger goes down, the desire for muscularity decreases. Considering that environmental factors are contributing to resource scarcity while the world population continues to grow, a future involving combat for scarce resources - land, food, WATER, - will become a reality, and perhaps muscularity in both men and women will signal an ability to survive.
As a single dude who just came off a couple “failed” dates (just not working out but I’m dating with the priority of seeking a long-term relationship), this podcast is absolutely fascinating. I wish you guys talked for 4 hours.
Good luck mate.
@@murphymackenappreciate it. I’m a little rusty in dating. A buddy recommended I go on a bunch of dates. Work past the nerves and get comfortable with it again. But you gave me a few tips in podcast that I can work on long-term
This dude is a grifter who says a bunch of bs to cater to women and his academia colleagues. Don't buy into this. The most important thing is passing the looks threshold
A better comparison of male facial features versus female facial features than beards versus no beards would be strong jaw lines versus soft rounded more feminine jaw lines.
Exactly. Timothee Chalamet is very feminine, but has a very sharp jawline, and Gen z girls are obsessed with him
@@maxpower19711 That is the misconception. Most of these guys are not or only partially feminine and posses very above average masculine features as well, with the jaw being at the forefront due to it being a highly dimorphic visible feature.
Dense and dark facial hair, especially beard still remains correlated strongly to androgen receptor sensitivity and can be indicative of a mens other (masculine) features as well.
The mixed results in the studies arguably stem from women simply not being sincere, considering most of these studies are surveys. Women are culturally wired to preserve their "good" self-image before others and therefore to be cautious with public acts, that could be controversial. It used to be literally life threatening for a women to be totally genuine in past times.
Truth is, reasonable physical Masculinity in a male is most often and undoubtedly preferable, at least for female sexual arousal.
Obviously larger stature in form of height or general body frame is extremely dimorphic and desirable for women, while also being a less controversial female preference in society. Consequently women are not afraid to admit the obvious in a socially safe environment.
I believe that women's preference for a partner's social status is protean and varies greatly depending on context. For example, a woman who identifies with a hippie lifestyle might view a man proficient in playing the guitar as possessing an attractive status. Conversely, a successful lawyer may initially look for a partner who shares characteristics with high-profile figures like Harvey Specter. Yet, due to the rarity of such ideal partners, she might instead value other traits that signify competence and respect. Consequently, her options could include professionals like policemen, soldiers, or firefighters, artists from various disciplines, or even a charismatic friend who has recently opened a restaurant. Even if she earns more than her partner, this does not imply that he holds a 'lower' status. The fundamental desire is for a partner who is competent and esteemed. Nevertheless, I find it more challenging to imagine women aspiring to be with the archetype of the attractive, stay-at-home man. Will societal views on this shift swiftly? I tend to think that while behaviors might adapt over short periods, the underlying preferences, which are embedded in evolutionary biology, are likely to evolve over much longer timescales.
Mine was "pro-teen" since moving beside a highschool in grade 2.. :)
I loved that you addressed the “archetype” issue. I think what makes us attractive or not is whether we value what's best in us and leverage it to our advantage. Seeking our best version also involves this.
“Even if she earns more than her partner, this does not imply that he holds a “lower” status.” This. I recall Jordan Peterson recounting a study where women were judging men’s attractiveness on their picture yet attached some characteristics about the person. It was basically how much wealth they have in addition to their level of competence. In a nutshell, you had the useless poor guy who obviously rated low, the useful rich guy who’s going to rate highly, but they also had the rich guy who didn’t earn his wealth and appeared incompetent so he was rated lowly. Then there’s the “poor” guy that was also a valued, well respected and trusted member of his community that people looked up to that rated highly which reinforces your point that absolutely, “the fundamental desire is for a partner who is competent and esteemed.”
On that note wealth doesn't always symbolise competence, but also you can't be competent and poor. Let say you have a set of skills but your not using them to your advantage you may highly esteemed and good natured, but can we say this person is competent? However to bring it back to evolutionary biology part of nesting is measuring how resourceful your mate is. I don't understand why men didn't evolve to have this as well, because they're also parents (maybe it's a social conditioning as some animals have some type resource seeking ritual for nesting). So if the guy is poor, it unrealistic to stick with that guy. And it is not personal but this is one of the things women have to consider when they're preparing to have a child. It is necessary to ensure that your offspring has a safe environment to grow up and you are also financially secure enough to tend your 100% to them in their infancy (like be present). So it contradicts what you said on women not caring about wealth. However as you said context is important if you are not marrying maybe man's wealth don't matter as much.
A friend of mine had a car accident when she was a kid, she flew thru front window, got stuck in it with neck exposed and carotid artery exposed. They saved her, did basic reconstruction surgery as good as they could 30 years ago. She grew up embracing her scars, she is confident, strong, entrepreneur, independent, has cue of men running after her, and always posts on social media that her scars made her value in herself and others the inner beauty. She often gets asked why doesn't she want to do plastic surgery to remove the scars, she says she wouldn't be true to herself self if she would remove the scars 😊
❤
I am wondering if women prefer more feminine features in male faces because of the effects of the birth control pill?
I was wondering the same thing, I was hoping they'd bring it up
I am not a scientist myself, yet a woman who always preferred tall and slender, yet more feminine-faced guys, so I can speak out of my experience. NO. I liked such guys even as a pretty young person, before I was taking any birth pills. Later, when I was taking contraceptives in my thirties, nothing changed - I still had the very same preference. So from my perspective - no, never.
My idea, on the other hand, is this is because of neotenic preferences - more feminine faced guys look a) more like cute babies, so they are easier to be loved and cared for just like babies are, and b) they seem not to be as dangerous as masculine-faced, strong males. So, it's both good sides: it's both more positive (more love) and less negative (less danger).
Definitely No.
Seems pretty straight forward, both men and women tend to enjoy seeing feminine features, hense most advertising tends to show attractive feminine women
Yes.
I stopped watching at there are some differences between gender and sex. I’m just not entertaining these people anymore.
he's in the academia system - he doesn't want too get cancelled
@@realistic_delinquentgender is literally BASED ON THE EXISTENCE OF SEXES….
If they are different, it’s because people keep stupidly using Gender in place of Seggs
He mentions that women are putting in a lot of work with makeup, etc, but they seem to put in very little work into their personalities, avoiding high body counts (if you know what i mean), fitness (at least in my area), things that would actually make them more attractive to men.
The problem with selecting women for low body count is you’re also selecting for low sex drive . This preference can cause you to end up stuck in a sexless marriage if you are obsessive about it .
@@jposhpaws2588 HORSE MANURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 🐎 💩
I got a low body count but I’m hornier than pack of Triceratops. Check yo self before you wreck yo self. Brother 😂🙏❤️
@@jposhpaws2588 God, how I wish you were wrong about this. You're not wrong, though...
That's because make-up is easy and the other things you mentioned take actual effort.
@@jposhpaws2588 They may have strong impulse control
Really enjoyed the podcast. I could listen to you two for hours. Very interesting topics and discussion. Thanks!
One of my favorite episodes of this podcast
Women are going to love this episode.
And men are gonna hate it 🤷🏻♀️
@@monikawojciechowska8964why? I’m a man and I enjoyed listening to it. the guest does seem very female friendly tho, so it does make sense that women would like it
@@Fred-zt5ky I Don't mean all men, but he goes against some common narratives that men are convinced of and speak about all over the internet
@user-zv7cs7xe1x that's kind of my impression. Some statement made by red pill men seem to be 'the holy truth', and then comes someone like Macken who says 'well, that's not what the data seems to suggest ' and all of a sudden men go mad. No wonder his audience is mostly women, men prefer to watch something that doesn't deny their red pill ideology and doesn't hurt their ego.
@user-zv7cs7xe1x I'm not going to criticize anything they have to say about women. Similar to my view on feminism, I would have no position in which to argue if the claims were only about women. That's not the case, though. As long as they're making claims about men that are more reflective of women's perceptions of men than an accurate assessment of the average man's perspective, then I can't see it as anything more than pandering.
In the end, this is just more fuel for division.
This was great, very insightful. I love hearing different perspectives because many times two things can be true at the same time. Dialectics is important to understand in conversations like this.
I believe when it comes to problematic behavior, it is a human condition problem rather than a gender problem. Men and women can do horrific things, and with the differing characteristics of both sexes these actions may manifest differently. Men and women shouldn’t be against each other, men and women together should be more forgiving towards the gender as a whole. Men have done terrible things to me and I know there are some cruel people out there, but I’d never blame the gender as a whole..I know there are some wonderful kind men too. Once we realize this we can function a lot better in society ❤
I think preference for socioeconomic status is very malleable, but preference for status overall is not. In a more egalitarian society with more social safety nets and affordable housing, how much wealth one has does not matter as much in proportion to other potentially attractive traits.
Anecdotally, I don't make as much money or have as advanced a degree as my partner, but I'm very attractive in other masculine ways, e.g. athleticism, bravery, assertiveness, martial ability, etc.
Macken Murphy is more concerned about his career than speaking the truth. If you want to know who rules over you its the ones you are not allowed to speak ill of.
20:00 I'd say that the externality of facial appearances being more valued and observed when compared to other body parts like your example (hands) is because of multiple reasons, I'll name a few that I can think of on the top of my head, I'm not an expert but im just using logical reasoning impose a hypothesis.
1) Your face is closer to the sun than the rest of your body so theoretically it would absorb more UV damage when compared to other body parts and so it's a better judgement for genetic damage.
2) We naturally look at peoples faces more than other body parts because thats where our externalities of expression lies, like our eyebrows, eyes and mouthes/teeth.
3) The skin on the faces is quite thin compared to elsewhere which would lead to better observations of constricted blood vessels and thus tiredness, think about your eyebags (the thinnest skin on our bodies) and if your tired then that means you've exerted more energy to produce, meaning your more likely to have worse survival traits.
4) Our teeth can allow us to determine someones diet, as we all know sugar makes our teeth yellowish and thus it would signal excess consumption and so your more likely to have beneficial survivial traits, its the opposite now however due to the processing of sugar cane.
(Edit)
5) Our heads obviously contain our brain, the most important organ to our survival and the size of our face and damage to the face is a more significant factor for possible brain damage and possible inflamation.
6) Our hair tells us quite a bit about our nutritional obtainance and thus our level of nutritional consumption meaning were more likely to have beneficial survival characteristics.
That's the 6 things I can think of but there could be more, like eye colour to determine genetic diversity, how big our nasal airways are so we can absorb more oxygen, etc.
*The Guest and the Topic are very eye-opening and are a confirmation of what most people would expect without the influence of outside sources.*
*It is always a blessing to be able to reevaluate your opinion while listening to a well-educated, well-spoken guest.*
*_The world doesn't seem to be so black and white after all_*
Anyone else get the feeling Chris was not onboard with that majority of what his guest was saying here
Macken just did a podcast with FD Signifier, I think Chris and Macken might be in oposite sides of the ideological spectrum, or maybe not in oposite sides but definitely far away from each other ideologicaly speaking.
The reason I can talk to a wide variety of people is because I am not ideological. I just like science.@@matriaxpunk
Chris is left and panders but this guy is clearly a grifter for women
Yes 😄
@@user-tx4wj7qk4t Chris is left? Lol
*1) Within the first 30 min, Murphy claims that sex & gender are different. Wait a sec, that's idea smuggling.* The sex/gender distinction is ideological, not scientific (as we know from the ideologues like John Money and Judith Butler who appropriated the term "gender" to that end). I'm still waiting to see if Chris questions Murphy about his ideological bias.
*2) Murphy disparages lay people who cite a study without extensively knowing findings in the field.* By that logic, individual studies are essentially worthless.
*3) Murphy seems to disdain people who translate "theoretical" ev psych findings into "application."* But practicality is precisely what makes science relevant.
Yes; thank you. I'm so tired of this 21st c. trope. So dangerous and cruel. There's 2 sexes. That's it.
sex & gender ARE different
@@rafresendenrafresenden.1644 _sex & gender ARE different_ No, they are not, and simply asserting they are doesn't make it so. Moreover, *the sex/gender distinction is a purely ideological belief not backed by any evidence, data, or reasoning,* so anyone espousing it deserves all the scrutiny and skepticism as a pusher of any other religion.
@@disposbleacct sex and gender has been study for thousands of years
@@rafresendenrafresenden.1644 _sex and gender has been study for thousands of years_ Sex and gender have been *studied* for hundreds of years (the concept of modern scientific "study" only originated after the 1700s). Sex referred to male/female as usual, and *gender was always and only a linguistic term referring to nouns as male/female/neuter in languages like Latin* (gender was NEVER applied to humans until ideologues like Money and Butler did so after the 1950s).
I tire of having to educate you. Read more before commenting on a topic you clearly know nothing about, or try to troll elsewhere.
I feel like this whole discussion could be encapsulated with "People like positive rarity"
I would be interested in whether hip to waist ratio and facial symmetry are universally appealing to men regardless of total mass.
Evolution of desire is great book that will share insight on this. Have you read it?
I have not but I will add it to the list!
I love how positive Chris speaks about his listeners.
This was a great episode. Also, I think tattoos are very attractive, but it does depend on the tattoos. It can really highlight your great taste, or lack of taste
My gosh, so many words with so little clear understanding.
A shame you understand so little
Yeah Zettaclark3213 im sure you know better with all the studies you’ve done.
I bet you can’t even name 3 women who will talk to you
Maken’s work is fascinating and Chris was very well prepared! Great podcast ❤
SCIENCE: Most of my followers are women. My mentor is a women. Coincidently, I don't seem to say anything that may be deemed offensive about women. I use extreme outliers to introduce doubt. I mention something that "may not be true" because it could support my story - which is totally a good scientific practice. Using correlational studies and not mentioning that there could very likely be confounders or other bias to not draw causal conclusions. CONCLUSION: Sad this kind of propaganda might work to convince the average person who thinks this all sounds Science and is a lot "nicer".
Sprinkle in a few truths in there.
Just because you dont like it, doesnt mske it less science
Broken nose, scar on the face, i feel would come across as more "hard to kill" opposed to "counldt handed it"
What do yous think ?
As long as it doesn't contribute too much to your overall looks 'balance', and minor scar etc can actually add to attraction from females e.g. jason Mamoa or Anakin skywalker in RoTS
@@adamlee3333 aaah well that's me fucked then
A factor that came to mind a few times was expectation of family, specifically parents. Even friends. Whether it’s looks or social economic preferences and actual choice.
The pill probably affects those results, I would think... Do we know if that's a factor that has been considered in these studies?
Because we do know that it affects choice of mates...
I'm not of God of War fan, but when Kratos grew a beard that was when he became a dedicated dad
This fucking guy tries so hard to be PC 😂😂
@@realistic_delinquent what’s commendable
Did he say there are some differences between gender and sex?
Yep
To be fair, they ain’t spelled the same 😂
So that’s 1 difference lmao
He works in academia, got to tow the party line 😒
I feel like MM is someone who has read all the right things but still just doesn't get it - Everything he says is like he is trying to avoid saying something that might be perceived as negative or "shaming" someone.. He just can't connect the dots..
Yes. And even his tattoos and hairstyle don't compensate this lack of bravery...
a mainly female viewerbase is all the context needed. for that, you generally need to be able to talk at length while not saying much
I don't think you understand how evolutionary psychology is often conjecture. MM seems to care what the truth is.
This guy doesn't understand that jordan Peterson wasn't attracting the model. He was attacking the woke ideology that is the source reason for why she was on the cover.
Eh, just admit it was in poor taste. Peterson’s first year or 2 in the spotlight were great, I know he’s a good man, but he jumped the shark long ago.
@@josephmontague1953 I don't think this guy and Jordan can be friends anyway, didn't Jordan attack tattoos (or was that just the Jolly Heretic maybe)?
I think it’s also worth remembering - similar to women - men aren’t necessarily looking a certain way FOR women. As a guy who is always in the gym, we’re doing it for ourselves and even honestly for other guys and the bond - vs to get a woman.
LOOKSMAXXING, SKILLMAXXING, MONEYMAXXING, KNOWLEDGEMAXXING OR YOU'RE NGMI
@Emit. NEVER GONNA MAKE IT
@@memopinzon That's a ridiculous take lol what are you even talking about 😂😂
@@sirblackshield8000 RISE N GRIND LIFEMAXXERS
NEVER GET UP
@@bro918 STAY DOWN
Your subscription base represents roughly 16% of the total enrollment in us universities. Congrats 🍾 wiser every day through dialogue
Just wanted to note, that when I’m looking at a guys height on a dating site, I’m always thinking about it in relation to myself. I’m 5’4” and I prefer a guy that is not so tall. But I’m definitely more attracted to a guy with broad shoulders and nice arms 😊.
Dating apps at your ancient looking age
@@vklnew9824what’s ur point? like what made you think “this would be a good comment to post?” i’m genuinely curious
@@t.f.9378 I just want to raise hell upon these tainted generations that I've been damned to walk amongst.
What a man finds attractive when looking for a long term relationship can be very different from what a man finds attractive when looking for a recreational use only relationship. Most women do not know that there is a difference between the two.
Just exercise frequently. It will increase your confidence. Face is number 10. Your challanges and your good character is what makes you attractive.
Tons of people talk about how facial attractiveness is very important (WHICH IT IS) but having a healthy bodyfat percentage is literally the best thing you can do for facial aesthetics.
For ~95% of people, the reason why they're not attractive is for 1 of 3 reasons
1. Too Fat
2. Don't have a wardrobe
3. Don't go to the barbershop every other week.
Rarely is somebody, especially facially, is FUBAR.
I disagree. If you're under 5'9 and average looks, your chances with women drop dramatically.
Macken presents himself well and has interesting points, but I wish he would commit to a side in arguments. He should contextualize the research he’s familiar with ie western men tend to prefer a BMI in women between x and y.
I love his talking style. It's very straight foward and rational.
Thanks!
The waist to hip ratio for women having little to no bearing on fertility kind of reminds me of the female preference for tall men, on the assumption that they are better fighters. Doesn't necessarily pan out but it may be the best indicator you've got just on first look.
6:28 - who would ever say ‘we decide’ what’s masculine and feminine? Dimorphic traits dictate that inference. It’s most certainly not a will-based decision in that regard.
Agreed. For example, people tend to focus on the left side of the face. Similarly, people tend to focus on one facial feature over others (the eyes), so they may not have a balanced view of the overall masculinity and femininity in one's face. That bias doesn't eliminate difference.
Such an interesting and balanced conversation! I kind of really love how nerdy this gets tbh
Extremely enjoyable conversation
Women don't generally want a large age gap ... YES. It's men that want this, sure, but not women.
(Ok, let's see all the disgruntled RP comments roll in 😂)
could you elaborate? I've never heard it questioned that women (especially young ones) prefer older men. I'm legit interested to hear the opposite take
@@jasonfabo7126 well I’m 20, me or any of my college mates are not with anyone above the age of 23. Honestly most people date their own age even 1 or 2 years age gap is kind of rare. For me personally, I wouldn’t date someone 3 years older also because I’m in a very different phase of life than some who is 24 and up. Men who are older wanting to get with me just makes me feel like they only want me for my age and they have this sort of revenge fantasy on women their age because they did not get attention when they were younger. I also do not feel safe around older men approaching me.
I always thought the Romeo and Juliet age gap made more sense considering women supposedly mature about 4 years faster than men. And honestly I wouldn’t mind a large-ish age gap. At 32 the youngest I’d go is like 25
@@RM-gq5jv I can understand your point of view, but honestly a good chunk of us (not all cause I get what you mean) are normal guys. I don’t exclusively look for younger women, but I wouldn’t mind it. And tbh the whole “life phase” makes little sense. We all go through life at different rates. I graduated with a bachelor’s degree at 26. I lost my virginity at 27. By that logic, I’m like 5 years behind on life. I’m 32 now with no house yet. So I’m further behind. I grew up poor and lacked resources if you’re wondering. I’m average in intelligence as well.
Also it’s kind of a cultural thing. In Mexico, for example, age gaps are pretty normal. In many other countries it’s normal to have a bit of an age gap. In college my 22 year old female friend dated a 29 year old guy who was also in college.
I just ask for open mindedness that not all older men are monsters. If I find a woman who is 30, great. If I find one who is 25, great.
@@joaquin67 I get that but there’s a difference between a 20 year old and a 25 year old. By 25 you’ve been an adult for about 7 years and know a bit about what you want in life.
“Where my hug at?” is the best pickup line I can do
One satisfying result from my dissertation research was proving that laypeople's predictions about the outcome of my research were the exact opposite of what the facts stated. They were biased in their predictions because of preconceived prejudices against a particular pattern. Objectively measuring this pattern allowed the actual behaviours to be revealed. Very satisfying to point at a figure and say 'the facts don't lie'.
I think claiming that morbid obesity is ever attractive is an impossible stretch--sure, there is going to be variety between populations that is mediated by the environmental factors, but people find signal of physical health attractive... If you are so skinny that you are starving to death, thats not attractive. Likewise, if you're so fat that your health is in serious question, that's also not attractive almost by definition.
Exactly. Someone having a fetish is not the same as them finding someone attractive.
Obviously you’re looking into the context of a Western who grew up in a society that doesn’t experience food scarcity. They literally said that a woman who is obese (now I don’t think they specify how obese in the episode) are more attractive in certain parts of the world where there are food scarcity because being chubby is linked to social economic status in a poor and starving environment.
@@TheRedemptionRain just to add to your point, he does mention some societies find women at BMI 38 attractive, and that's pretty clearly heavily obese.
I think you missed the point where it was attractive was in a place where people tend to have a lot of food problems.
I don't want to attack you but this is the problem people have, they take a result, take the context out and apply it to the wide population...just no
exactly, there's always gonna be weirdos in any population
On average, men are bigger and stronger and so historically have been the default protector/providers and women have been dependent on them. This lead to men focusing more on obtaining money and women more on maximizing their looks. We both are attracted to both. As society has changed and the ability to provide depends less on physical size, relationships are shifting to be more about compatibility than sex for money. It's not that men are less attractive or women just want your money, it's just that those have been the typical gender roles. When everyone can protect and provide for themselves and take care of their appearance, these differences will minimize.
Money hasn’t been a thing historically. It was mostly hunting for resources “food” men were chosen for their athletic bodies, height “tall, and the popular hunter skull “defined jawline” and health which can be assessed from face. these all were and still indicators of male ability to acquire resources “food” and physically protect his family. But also testosterone is on the decline and men aren’t as physically active as before which could explain the mass decline in male physical attractiveness. However this data was conducted from dating app’s profile so I don’t believe most men are unattractive, but mostly just those who are on dating apps.
The gender differences in caring about looks are actually bigger in Western countries.
The gender differences in caring about income are smaller in Western countries, but this gap will never reach 0 as long as women are the ones who get pregnant and give birth.
Love this episode. Been waiting for the two of you to talk about this subject. "Everyone who's listening to this podcast is jacked, so it's OK". 😆
Strong ''sneaky fucker'' vibes from this guest. Not always coherent but all in all still an interesting podcast.
thinks hes sneaky rather
same. cant really trust him for some reason. the voice, the demeanor, the speech pattern..
Bro was yapping ab that tattoo FOR SURE
Good grief. It’s ok if you like bigger gals. No need to be offended on behalf of women. He talked around the answer for half an hour… reiterating his non-answer.
I'm dating a man with a fairly masculine face (the brow ridge, a strong jaw line, hirsute) but he has a somewhat feminine physique (he is very slender for a man, with a slender chest and arms) and certain mannerisms that are vaguely feminine, which i had noticed that I like. I dated a very masculine guy once and he was too masculine for me. Very aggressive, sexually, and - weirdly - too strong. It was fun for a bit, but ultimately overwhelming.
I stopped listening when this guy said that Peterson was delusional to call that woman unattractive. This guy's mostly female audience must love this bs. My mom almost threw up when i showed her that "model"and she's from a poor country
Also just because some starving tribe finds fat women attractive because "she must have food" doesn't make it remotely relevant as evidence by men's repulsion
I fail to see any point in history, including those of food scarcity, where I prefer a hambeast over a defined, well proportioned woman. IDK, call me crazy, but a hambeast shows gluttony, sloth, and greed in character which proves to be rather awful motherly traits. I also fail to see the point in history with food scarcity where a woman would even be able to be a hambeast. It's scarce remember? She also has to actually move around to acquire that food, resulting in caloric loss. A well-defined woman who goes to the gym signals not only an abundance of caloric surplus (because she needs calories to exercise), but the discipline and physical prowess, which are traits I'd love to be expressed amongst my children. It also shows way more drive to be able to all that than sit around and eat to get fat.
I also don't think it's fair to criticize Peterson's view when you are referencing data from an archaic age. Assuming your hypothesis is correct, food scarcity is NOT a thing at the moment, therefore the input variables change. It takes very minimal effort to be a hambeast at the moment. It might be why most people don't find them attractive.
What about the theory “If she smokes she pokes”? Can we test that?
When it comes to attraction, it's about behaviors that we all taught from at an early age. Unfortunately those who weren't taught, they are the ones who will struggle. On top of that, society treats attraction as a black box experience where it will just happen when you are confident in yourself.
In reality, its all hormonal and psychological which will increase attraction. Its like when singers purposely dress seductively to increase tickets sell. Its a market gimic and they paid people to work it out for them. Its funny because in others stages of life we explain things in step by step action. For example, im training to be a doctor, and im actually told step by step how to talk to a patient. Im even taught how to make someone open up and listen to you.
It would be nice if people would do the same thing with dating because all of it is transferable
Ya I had to spend 10,000 hours djing to offset my stutter. But by the time i left my bedroom err "the studio", I had aged out and had to deploy one of their own. Social rank perception hacks and nekkidsxy body count exploits ftw ! :D
My sales training classes have been very useful in dating. Specifically, the IMPACT method is basically a hack to find out how to appeal to what the other party wants. It works really well in dating women, because they love it when you ask questions about them.
What I find attractive as a 36 yr old female:
Height doesn’t get me, I’m 5ft 6. I’ll be with tall or short.
I prefer a man clean. He can be hairy or not, I just prefer one who is manicured and clean. One who wears fresh clothes and their style matching mine. If they have a beard, they keep it clean. For body shape, one that likes to be outdoors. I’m not into chubby men, reason why is their future health. If they are a bicyclist or hiker is a massive plus.
One who is a little tan but not dark or pale.
A smile with clean teeth. They don’t need to be straight.
Someone I can talk with, someone I can let my hair down and feel comfortable with. Someone who is patient and easy going. 😎 that’s my mix.
In today's cultural landscape, Chris symbolizes reality, while his guest embodies the formal educational institutions. The dynamic between them is truly uncanny.
Really interesting episode. Thanks guys!
I'm ugly and unlovable. Both inside and out.
Rollo was right when he said he'll never run out of material to analyze. Sunday gonna be fun for sure.
😂
See you on Sunday bro
Maybe one day Chris will stop being a coward and actually interview Rollo
@@vermithor51acTaking to a brick wall? That's just an assumption. Why not try and actually be proven wrong?
@@vermithor51acRollo was willing to have a conversation, Chris doesn't even want to have ONE discussion.
How attractive beards are totally depends on the individual and their beard. Some look clean and are shaped in a way that suits the individual's face shape. They look good. Some just look like they're storing crumbs from previous meals and scratchy/uncomfortable to kiss. Whether the beard fits in with the rest of the person's style and demeanour vs looks like it's based purely on not wanting to / forgetting to / being too lazy to shave matters. Just as you'll find many different websites helping women choose the right clothes for their body shape I think men could use a website helping them to select a beard style that suits their face. I'm not surprised at all at the huge variation in research results RE beards because beards themselves and how they compliment the face they're on are sooo variable.
Love this guy! Great to have him on!
The most attractive eyes are much larger than normal, bigger pupil size of course and color doesn't really matter. Not to wide or narrow on the face as well.
Explains why anime is so popular 🤣
Exactly 💯 and you have lovely eyes👀 yourself ☝️
Is there a study where women grade men by testosterone? Is there any correlation on the women level of testosterone and the man’s level of testosterone? Or the perception of high/low testosterone?
"Ive got a broken nose from boxing. What does that tell protential mates, it says for some reason I 'couldn't handle it', right?" I've actually heard numerous women say that my broken nose makes me look much more rugged, masculine and overall more attractive than if it was "some cute little perfect nose". In fact I think all of us can agree some form of damage (crooked nose, scars, etc) make people look much more attractive vs weak.
There's some research on this. For scars, it may help w short-term (but not long-term) attractiveness. But a broken nose is going to be a bridge too far for most (pun intended).
My husband was totally unfazed by the beginnings of his cauliflower ear from bjj, in fact I think he actually thinks they look cool...Can't say I was as excited 😂
@@tempsodaas a non-Jiujitsu guy with a lot of BJJ friends, I've always felt like cauliflower ear extends far beyond the border of what counts as "attractive damage". It just looks gnarly as fuck. The same way a bump in the nose bridge is one thing, but a massively split lip is another. Uncommon severe soft-tissue damage is rarely attractive regardless of the circumstances.
@@OrdnanceTV yeah they're a different breed I think 😆 it's kind of like a badge of honour to them.
Yeah he is talking bullshit here. Depends on the context. A guy who is not a stranger to physical confrontation, could definitely be a protector. Rather than a beta male who is scared of conflict
I want the PDF about the Playboy centerfolds changing depending on the economy too!!! Fascinating
I loved this episode, and thought the interaction was good. Yes, there was a lot of “in general” and caveats, but I think that was to be fair to the research.
As a guy who suffered what my surgeons called "catastrophic facial trauma" (complete nasal avulsion and lacerations to the upper right of the face and forehead) I do pretty ok. It was a car accident, I was passenger, my scars are bad ass though. Oh yeah 6 surgeries and I got a new nose made.
Waist to hip ratio kinda goes out the window if you're as wide as a bus.
I enjoy hearing new information. It came across a little toward the pedestalizing of women, but that was expected from the mouths of young men.
The one takeaway I found most interesting was the attractiveness of women (by size) related to the economic environment.
But for the most part it seems that the data is all over the place, bc people are complicated and diverse and more interesting than we can even comprehend on paper.
this dude is setting off my spidey senses a little bit 🤔
Lol what do you mean?
@@TurnOntheBrightLights.Sociopath, I imagine
@@MoJohnnys Interesting 🤔. Do you get those vibes, too?
@@TurnOntheBrightLights. Bare minimum would be that something is off about him 👨🏻⚕️📝