Is There Really A $10,000 Difference? Les Paul Special Shootout
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- čas přidán 25. 07. 2018
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Yes, I realize these are Les Paul Specials, not Jr’s. I misspoke while filming, everybody relax!
Need to update the description which also refers to them as "Jrs". :-)
Rhett Shull was the old one 10.000 $ or the new one
The 1959 was $14,000 and the 2017 was $4,000
Rhett Shull people sometimes just want to argue lol
btw having the $$ I would totally buy the old girl over the new one!
and so would everyone else whether they admit it or not!!
you should do two JRs and call them.specials just for fun lol
They are JR's with double cutaway. A les Paul special is basically a single cutaway Jr w two P90's.
As a collector I’d buy the 59. As a guitar player I don’t hear a 10K difference.
THIS
Yep. Save the bucks and make your own memories.
Yeah, people are starting to come full circle and realize what some of us have known all along: lower output pickups sound much better than modern hot ones. For years I've been shaking my head at the overwound pickup madness that took people over in the 80s and for decades made so many people swap out all the wonderful vintage pickups in their guitars for sterile sounding characterless high output ones.
^ This
@mk win What's the highest output reading that you'll take, 8.0k?
@@MrEddie-gf3yg I actually just go by the sound of the pickup rather than seeking out specific output range, but it turns out that the ones my ears tend to favour are always less than around 9 or 10k, some very low. I mostly just buy cheap vintage guitars that have original pickups that sound good to my ears and leave those pickups in. The guitars I've owned from around the 80s that had hot pickups like Dimarzio Super Distortions just sounded like mud to my ears and I'd end up hardly ever playing them.
I dont really have an issue with ho pickups, but those active emg pickups on anything shy of a professionally produced metallica album sound like shit, and shame on james kirk kerry king and Jeff hanneman for pushing those shitty sounding pickups back when emg didnt have a stranglehold on the metal guitar market
Yes! As Curtis Novak always says: a pickup is an input device, not an output device
The 59 sounds better for sure, but I would be curious to hear some lower output pickups in the 2017 to see if that makes up the difference. The 59’s pickups just sounded incredibly sweet and clear
On the 59 the neck pickup sits directly on the Neck and the modern one has more space in between.
I think this makes the most difference in sound. (Just for Neck and both for sure) :)
100% this
Great video Rhett! That '59 sounded spectacular...
Buck and Evans thanks man!
Yes and the 2017 sounded awful.
as did the 2017
Buck And Evans nice work YOU do mate!
The thing that stands out for me is that the 59 would have been a regular line production guitar. The 17 was a custom. Even relative dollars, the 59 wasn't a $4000 guitar
Same with a 1959 reissue. It's just what was made by Gibson USA that year. In fact, it's the same thing for any custom shop reissue
In 1970, I bought my Gibson Les Paul Standard brand new in a music store for $275!
Really good point
The 59 definitely sounds better (it had a lot more bite and clarity to my ears), but $10000 better? Nope.
Thankfully '59s don't sell for anywhere near $10,000.....
Krausewitz. - the '59 here is $14k
Well, the '59 there could be $140,000 if the store wants.....no one is going to buy it for either amount. I was interested in buying a '59 a few years ago when I thought I had more money than I actually did. Going price seemed to be around $5,000....maybe $6,000 - $7,000 for a really clean one.
Krausewitz - Keep in mind that the market varies depending on your location.
Guitar tone doesn't have any cost at all.
The 59 definitely has an identity for sure. Tone is amazing! where the 2017 has more of a modern SG standard kinda tone.
Modern SG Standard also has an identity. If not, how can you say how does it sound?
This is easy, just grab a friend and swing them both like axes at each other as hard as you can and whichever one cuts the other in half is clearly the better guitar.
As about every 4th commenter has noted, the neck pickups are placed differently. My research shows Gibson's early placement of the neck pickup being almost at the neck's heel was because it sounded better the closer it got to the neck. But as units were sold, Gibson discovered some dissatisfactions with buyers because the neck tenon was pretty seriously cut into to accommodate the neck p/u placement making for noticeable instability (try playing a cowboy chord on any "close neck p/u") Special and you'll sound like you hit a chorus pedal; AND contributed to easy breakage where the neck meets the body.
The other thing to mention about the p/u placement and the routed tenon is that it subtly reduced sustain, but that's really splitting the hairs.
As far as the comparative tones go, yes, the aged/degaussed pickups on the 59 are (and I think this may be the word everyone's been searching for) more articulate. There's noticeable string separation in chords, a burnished top end, and detail that's just missing in the 2017. The 2017's are toppy, harsh, and hairy. As many have noted, there are quite a number of p/u winders who make an underwound P-90, and it's my guess that a pickup swap would put the 2017 a lot closer to the '59 in tone, gain, detail, yadda.
Can't really speak to the wraparound angle difference, since just about every Gibson I've ever owned or played had it's own specific placement. I'd LIKE to think that determining the proper placement/angle is a QC issue that Gibson makes an effort to address on every guitar that uses one, but who am I kidding? They're probably drilled by a CNC machine regardless of any hopeful exactitude, but I WILL say I've had a couple wraparound Juniors that were pretty much spot on, intonation-wise.
Yes
The microtonal differences aside, just the sound of P90s in either guitar through a nice amp is, quite simply to my ears, the sound of heaven. Mahalos for the demo!
Jon Komatsu P90s are where it's at!
there's a huge difference between the two guitars
SoKE DESTROYER maybe but one is not necessarily better than the other, just different.
neither i'm saying one is better, the pickups though is what i think makes all the difference
no man. It's the wood, not the pickups.
The 59 pickup magnet are degaussed. That what makes old pickups more "rounded".
The neck pup is in a different location on the 2017. I liked the tone of the '59 - if I had the money, the playability issue wouldn't bother me. I'd adapt my playing to it, if that makes any sense.
Love how much darker the 59s fretboard is.
Rhett, I bought a 2018 Les Paul Special yesterday based on your tones from this video. Amazing guitar and the P90s offer a completely different tonal palette than my humbucker equipped Gibsons or single coil Fenders. I forgot how much I enjoy the articulation, and growl, from a phenomenal set of Gibson P90s. This was a great video and I’m really enjoying your channel. Thanks!
I have a '67 ES-345. It stands up against any modern ES I ever played or owned. Gauntlet thrown.
I love these videos because I learn all the riffs you’re doing! Thanks
Righteous Guitars is a wonderful shop. Its about 20 min from my in-laws so I try to sneak over when we are up visiting family. Thanks for the demo. That '59 is a pretty sweet guitar...
Great demo. Thanks for posting.
The 59's pick ups are magical!!!!! No comparison!
The mojo came across on the 59 in the video. Both sound great because of your playing. The overall sound, tone, magic of the 59 is sick!
I listened to the video while perusing the comments. To be fair, the subtle difference was just that, subtle. Possibly the 2017 needs a little break in.
Thank you for doing a really good comparison here. You’ve got the Custom Shop sounding great, but not as good as the 59.
I have multiple vintage P-90 Gibson’s, and yes, that mojo is real. I was a disbeliever until I bought my fist one. Watch out, because it gets addictive.
There is certainly nothing wrong with refretting a vintage guitar if it’s necessary. Generally, it doesn’t hurt the value much if the old frets are gone. I’ve had 2 of my Juniors pleck’d, and then set up perfectly afterward. Once they’re made right, they absolutely play as good as you could want.
I realize that it’s hard for a lot of people to have access to a vintage Gibson, but a good one is a truly special experience.
This is killer! I’d love to see the same with an ES-335. That’s my dream guitar.
Tyler Southern see my post.
I have a 1961 re-issue that may be my next one if I can get my hands on a real 61!
the diference is so big bro!! the 1959 is a monster!!!
Both sounded pretty close to my ears up until the 3rd riff you played and I could definitely hear the difference between them, the '59 had a certain airiness and clarity that made me smile. Good video my friend.
Yes, 2:14 -2:30 is a big difference in sweetness
Since I've Been Loving You, my favorite Zeppelin song... nice
Just played the latest Special DC and it’s really really good. I thought the pups cut much better than on my 2006 Special. The DC brings the neck pup away from the neck which will have some interesting effect as well
Thank you, good stuff.
No mention of neck pickup placement?
Nobody seemed to pick up on that. 1st thing I noticed. Also, they sounded so close to each other that the difference didn't matter!
The pickup location and the neck joint has been modified to be stronger. My guess is that the tiny neck joint is still a little iffy but that's the breaks. My guess is Gibson felt it could not responsibly construct these guitars and SGs as they did back in the 50s - early 60s. They were right.
Yeah... I noticed that too, and the angle of the bridge.
Later '59 and '60 Specials have a neck joint and pickup placement like the '17.
Bridge/neck angles in the 50's are all over the map. They were handmade, after all.
How much of that “mojo” is just a mental thing. Knowing it’s a 59 can just create preconceived feelings about it. If you hadn’t known it was a 59, would you have felt the same about it?
I cant really fathom why the p90 pickup isnt way more popular than it is. Its wonderful for all styles in any configuration and works great in solid and semi hollows. I routed out my oldish Gibson for humbuckets in the 80s abd it didnt take me long to realise that 'the tone' I was aiming for was actually just a different amp. Ho hum.
They do sound different from my end. They're both fantastic. The 2017 has a little more I don't know what in the new pickups. Thanks for the demo bro!!!.
Thanks for teaching me "Slave"! Such a cool riff!!
Thanks I found your video very helpful
yeah they're definitely both really good, 59' just has that extra thing though. The pickups sound so much more bodied, warm, and rounded
great vid subbed!
They both sound absolutely sick! 😱
What I really want to know is, does the benefit of the '59 truly justify paying $10,000 more, if you're just an average Joe? It's better, ok. Is it $10,000 better. Is that "mojo" worth 10K?? Would YOU pay 10K more for the ineffable mojo you feel? (I don't know how much money you have, but just imagine you're a middle-class guitar player/performer). Or even, if you're not actually planning on buying the guitar, would you, after playing both guitars, come away saying, "The '59 is completely worth $10,000 more"?
Sorry if I sound a little skeptical, but it seems to me that the premium placed on "vintage" gear these days is WAY out of proportion with any real or subjective benefits. People sell gear guitars from the 50s, 60s, and 70s for unbelievably high prices, even when the things are junkers.
Great T-shirt
Awesome tone
Lovable demo
More beef in the 59' and crispy top end on those modern P-90's. Once set up though, the 59' will walk all over the modern Les, or at least skip to my lou. Actually they are both great and the modern one could be made to sound more like the 59' if you were inclined. I can wait to get this or a Jr.(Modern or Vintage) as I think they are a badass tool for Rockn'Roll. I accidentally ended(long story) up with J.Geil's 1950 Gibson ES-125 and the P-90 pickup on it is absolutely the sweetest pickup Ive ever played. Unbelievable! Thanks for doing such a bare bones, no-nonsense demo. Short and sweet and to the point in a world where all we do is burn time. Every-once in a while something valuable comes along and you nailed it. Thanks to Rick Beato for turning me onto you. Speaking of which, Ive reached out to him and haven't heard back on that new instructional platform he is starting. Is he just too busy? Love his content and he makes you feel like he's your friend(who just happens to have a book to sell) Ha!-Take care and love the videos-Scott
The 59 and a 10k side order of Mojo bro!!!
Definitely preferred the sound of the '59, but it's probably just a slight difference in pickup construction more than age. Both cool guitars!
Mojo , what an explanatory understandable term . THe definition of sound is more distinct on the 59 ,each string stands out more individually when all strings are strummed.
Nicely recorded. To me the vintage has more clarity. The modern one is fuzzy and less “musical” but I have owned a 59 Junior and sold it because I too feel more comfortable with my Custom Shop Special.
Great video!!!
Since I've been loving you sounded incredible on the '59
Indeed it did
Incredible video. Congratulations. I just think You should use the same riffs to compare the tone
Personally I’d get the mid 2000’s “1960 Reissue” Historic Custom Shop... best version of all.
Definitely the 59! I didn’t like how hot the pick ups were on the 2017. Guitar with good tone is always worth some TLC in order to bring it to a place where it’s playable. I also completely agree about being a player not a collector.
Rhett, please do more of these shootouts. You are fantastic and very consistent player and it is just awesome for comparing sounds of guitars :) Do more of these please, if you have access to cool guitars :)
Thanks Miro! I’m planning on it, I just need to find the guitars!
First I need to thank you for the guitar lesson, I forgot how to play your opening Stones song. You do play very well. I understand what you mean with Mojo. I have a few Les Paul's and Strats, of all 20 plugs of my guitars I always got to my White Strat. I can't put it into words but it has a great connection to me. I'm am not a goofy kid.
I play professionally and repair my guitars and add creative wiring. The favorite Strat just has " IT " and words leave me at a loss. Thank you for a great video.
My wife looked over my shoulder and said, "Blah-biddy-blah." lol!
great video!
59 had more character in the upper mids; 17 was too bassy
Wow! Love those models. I bought a 2019 honey Burst guitar center Gibson Paul Smith Special. P-90. My fave
More clairity in the 59, the new guitars sound more harsh and tinny sounding.
That is exactly my thought as well. I use to own a 59' Junior. Trading it was the biggest mistake of my life.
Same thoughts as well. 17 was tinier sounding
Can probably eq that out and you only notice it because they are being played next to each other.
Music Islife get that eq shit outta here haha
Darren Doxey that's what the tone controls on your amp are for, lol.
Please do more of these
Cool video!
Yeah I agree the Fretboard on the 59 is definitely a treat to behold. The 59 has the Mojo for sure and the difference not noted is the Neck Pickup on the 59 is closer to the fretboard. I personally believe there is a sweet spot in that area the older P90's are also a bit fuller. Saying that if the 17 is played and maintained for 60 years I believe it will also kick some serioius arse.
They don't even sound like the same model of guitar. The vintage one sounds amazing and new one sounds stale, stiff and forgettable. I'd say the '59 is a $10k guitar, no problem.
Liar
This is a cool shoot out. To me, The '59 sounded warmer over all. Thing i was looking for was 'flex' in the neck, affecting tuning stability. No crazy stage moves of course but the '59 seemed stable. Wife bought me a CopyCat copy i put a Gibson clear coil (ala Mike Campbell) in the br slot under a dog ear cover but the neck would drift. To be honest, I'd just look for an old style '57 type SB Jr and ride the tone control.
I have the 2018 version and it's awesome. An econo model for $1500. Seriously great guitar for the money!
I noticed that the neck pickup is butted up against the fretboard on the ‘59 and on the ‘17 the neck pickup is moved further toward the bridge. I’m guessing that also affects the overall sound/tone.
Both of them are beauty’s.
This is interesting, wish I could play them both in real life. Cool post!
I think they both sound really good but there's something about the tone on the 59 that just sounds better. That being said, I would be totally happy with the 2017 in my collection
It sounds to my ear like to 59 has more harmonic weight within every note the 17 still sounds great but there's a definite difference the 17 sounds lesser somehow.. awesome video rhett you make some great points for both guitars
Both sound pretty good. I think the '59 has a bit more growl and snap. The newer one is a teeny bit muddier. Both are pretty cool.
Since I’ve Been Loving You. Nice.
Rhett 1st Great playing. The 59 to my ears Barring the CZcams compression is more airy and open which I would contribute to the wood being older and not just 60 years probably a lot longer. It helps that you are so consistent with what you play and how. Stellar. The 2017 did sound great just a little more compressed and tight
The 59 sounded more seasoned, a bit more bloom on the neck pickup, and had a tad more presence with great break up . Still the 2017 was excellent too, and subjective to whether it was almost identical to the 59.
Love the Miles shirt!!!
Righteous!!! Greetings from Woodstock!
Both really great.
Yes Since I've Been Lovin You!
Nice review
And the pickups may be more tame on the 59 due to old magnets with decaying power
Excellent review, 59 has a warmer sound , where as 2017 is brighter and punchier, one thing I noticed is the bridge angle on the 59 is different, that would give the guitar are different feel and tone 😎🎶🎶🎶
same thing for me , at least in sound i dont know about playability , thanks for the comparison
I like the clarity in the modern one
The neck pickups are sitting in different positions.The 59' is almost flush on the neck and the 17' is about an inch away from the neck! That will make a difference to the sound for sure!
The vintage one has a Brazilian rosewood fretboard - the modern one has Indian rosewood. Many say this makes a difference in feel and tone. YMMV.
Back in the 50s Gibson didn't have separate neck and bridge pickups, they were just pickups. They grabbed a couple of out of a bin and wired them up as they built the guitar. That's why the neck output seems higher. It might actually be higher output because pickup winders with counters on them either didn't exist or the plant in Kalamazoo didn't use them.
Like that you played slave in the beggining love when keith plays the juniors
Would be cool to hear a Fender American Vintage (Pure Vintage) next to one of the actual vintage Fenders that they are modelled on. I hear they put a lot of effort into accuracy but it would be great to hear them side by side if you can make it happen! :)
The 59 definitely sounds a bit warmer to my hear and i can hear that Rhett definitely enjoys playing the 59 more but they both sound fantastic
The neck pickup on the 59 looks like it is mounted closer to the neck. Also, it looks like the 59 has either an ebony fretboard or the rosewood is much darker.
Love'um both, but go for mojo when ever possible. Stupid little detail things- I prefer the look of ebony fret-boards over rosewood. Not sure the 59 was ebony or just dark rosewood but I like the way it looks. I'm on the fence about the white edge on the pick guard of the '17. And I'm curious about why the pick-ups are in slightly different positioning between the two guitars. Side note; you mentioned binging on music with fuzz in it lately. Did you ever hear Gary Clark Jr. and Junk XL's version of Come Together? I'm loving it lately. Really dig the tone and the vibe.
I believe that the neck pup was moved inward to get more surface area at the neck joint. The 59s were more prone to necks snapping off.
George Robartes explains why the 17 sounds thinner on the neck pickup, its closer to the bridge. Not sure if it's the camera angle but the bridge appears to be on a different angle too.
These are both crazy prices when you could get a $200 Chibson, upgrade the pickups and you wont be far off. Outrageous pricing I say!
I am fortunate enough to have a '58 Jr TV (The double cut) so I'm predisposed to liking the '59 but I was shocked by how much more I like it. Even if I could afford the 2017 I don't think I'd buy it. Thanks for posting.
Your videos are always great, and this one is no exception! You brought up some valid information and I think, for our purposes, the word "Mojo" is plenty scientific.
The mojo i usually hear from vintage guitars is usually in the clarity of the notes and the punchiness of the tone (a more present mid tone). This probably only comes from the wood aging naturally over time which you obviously cant replicate with new instruments. That being said i still like the 2017 but and i agree the pickups were hotter than the vintage guitar and thats not necessarily a good thing but you can always change pickups.
Nick Spann I've owned a '55 LP and a' 58 LP Special. And played lots of newer ones. You can change out the pups. But it's more than just the aging of the wood. Those trees are Gone. The... Density... of the Mahogany and the Density of the Rosewood is nowhere near the same. The fretboard on the '59 is darker because it is Better Rosewood, not because someone played and sweated on it for years. Those Craftsmen are gone. I live here in Nashville for 28 years, have known many people who have worked for Gibson and the guitars, even Custom Shop are nowhere near the workmanship of the Vintage guitars. That's including the fact that now as then some are just better than others, just like Martins, Neumann, API, Neve. I'm sure you're aware of all this, but most who read this do not. The truth is that the Only real question is... Does anyone Have $15,000 to spend? Lol Also I've been a P-90 guy since the first time I heard them in the early '70's. They do not respond like Humbuckers and most people Don't know how to work them. Actually a good pair of P-90's have a Way wider range of tones than Humbuckers. Of course, if you are just going to run them into distortion pedals and heavy Amp distortion, they are wasted. Take care.
60 years... and about an inch difference in the neck pickup placement and the angle of the tailpiece/bridge...? Very cool guitars and fun demo though.
I like the old one better......great video
Thanks for this awesome video I really really enjoyed that 59 wow what a beauty
Damn! The SL67 in the back would've sounded killer with those
There's a massive difference between the 59 and the 17. I had a 59 Junior... sold it in a moment of madness and mistakenly assumed that I would be able to get something close from either the Custom-Shop or Collings. I made a big mistake.
Massive!! I'd question your vintage bias.
The spacing between the pickups are different and the rosewood is different. You will notice a difference on clean, and a tiny little bit when distorted.
The 2017 has a cleaner sound but the ‘59 has more character. Both sound great though.