E10 & E5 Ethanol fuel extraction removal from Unleaded Petrol using a Separation Funnel & Chicken 🐔
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- čas přidán 24. 07. 2024
- In this video I show how phase separation works and how to effectively process 30+ litres of petrol to remove the ethanol. Skip to 09:39 to see the process in a chicken drinker.
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⬇️Timecodes
00:00 Introduction to ethanol extraction
02:13 1st Demo using laboratory Separation Funnel
02:26 A bit on the whiteboard
03:09 The Practical
06:04 Phase separation process
07:29 The results
05:51 Processing larger quantities
09:39 A bit on the whiteboard
10:08 Equipment Overview inc Chicken Drinker
11:35 The Practical for 10 litres of Petrol
13:16 Phase separation process
14:21 Draining off the ethanol & water mixture
17:50 Measuring the ethanol extracted
19:04 A bit more on the whiteboard
19:47 Closing words
20:49 Credits
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#petrol #ethanol #chemistry - Auta a dopravní prostředky
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At highschool my teacher did an experiment with adding 100 ml of water to 100 ml of alcohol The sum of this mixture wasn’t the expected 200 ml but considerably lower. The explanation was that the water molecules could find a place between the much larger alcohol molecules, a bit like marbles can very space-effeciently find a place in a box full of tennis balls. Since ethanol is an alcohol as well, this may explain the presumed 4 % instead of the expected 5%. Thus as you can’t just add the volumes of water and alcohol, it is well possible that you removed the entire 5% after all.
Thank you for that. I'm learning more about this subject from my watchers than the making of the video lol. That's a fascinating concept. So much to science I never realised. Found the experiment on CZcams czcams.com/video/21MA_lM8afA/video.html
It might also be bc E5/10 never contain 5%/10% exactly that much. E5 is UP TO 5% and E10 is minimum 5% and UP TO 10%
You have to weigh it.
Try mixing sugar 50/50 with water. You will increase the weight, but the volume will not be much higher.
Same principle.
@@CyberlightFG Thank you for that info Frank
@@CyberlightFG I didn't think of that, but you are quite right !
The best demonstration and explanation I've seen.
Liked and subscribed.👍
Thank you very much Jonnie, appreciated.
Clear audio and video.
The best thing I took from this is the conical chicken watering vessel. Excellent idea. I've always thought that a conical vessel, preferably clear, would be the best way to do this. This is the best one, yet. Thanks.
I would cut the bottom of the blue support to route the tubing ("pipe") to allow a straighter flow. A little less cumbersome. Maybe, add a valve, too.
Well done and thank you.👍
Thank you for the comment. I did one previously with demijohns but wasn't satisfied that it was a realistic every day solution so kept searching for that big conical drum and then came across these and thought these may just work so time to make a second updated video.
Nice, clear and concise; really appreciated this. Now I just need a garden and a man-cave!
Thank you for the compliment.
In the last month, several presentations of this have appeared in YT. The biggest thing you add to the topic is the implementation of the Chicken Drinker. I'd never heard of that and it's perfect for pulling off the water without wasting more than a few drops of gasoline.
And it shows, you can use too little water, but never worry about too much water. It will always be heaver than fuel and settle out.
A big thanks!
Fortunately, around here we can find pumps that are "clear gas" (no ethanol).
Thank you for this comment. Took me ages to search for something that was effectively a large chemistry separation funnel but not made of glass and was cheap enough to be sensible. Personally I didn't enjoy messing about with petrol in my garage as it's rather dangerous and a fire risk.
*Hi Mate , really happy about your new career as a PETRO-CHEMIST 😊👍*
Haha I knew a friend that was. I think I’m trying to make up for messing about at school and now regret it lol. The demijohn one didn’t really work as well as hoped so thought there must be something out there to separate the ethanol in a better way. Trying to find a conical drum took ages of googling till I saw a chicken drinker and thought this might actually work. Take care
This is a great video for those who are tired of taking apart the carburetor in their chain-saws and lawn mowers. My boat, however, has a 125 hp outboard and burns quite a bit of fuel. The cost of ethanol-free gas is about $1.50 more per gallon but they sell it at one of the local stations. It is worth it as my boat sits most of the winter.
Sounds like you’ve got some bad experiences from this Ethanol that we in the uk are about to experience!
Take the fuel supply line off the carb and run it until the float bowl is dry.
Refit fuel supply line to the carburettor.
If you’re especially OCD, fill the float bowl with light mineral oil to keep air & moisture away from the internals over winter
As with most things, it’s all in the prep 👍
You should weigh the water going in, but its mass should be 10g for 10ml +\- a bit. But then after the extraction weigh the extract and subtract from the total mass of water + ethanol the original mass of water approx 10g. This gives the mass of alcohol extracted. Next divide the mass of ethanol by its density 0.789 to get the volume.
Thank you for that info Farmer John. Sounds like you know your chemistry a bit better than I. Great information.
Nice and informative as usual Mark! 👍🏻
Thank you Mikael. Tried my best on this one as I felt my first one on the subject could do with a better way to remove the ethanol.
@@CoatsandGaiters Any plans of testning fuel additives like Sta-bil?
@@Mij1965 I hadn't lol but just looked on amazon and the consensus is it's good so I think it's good stuff.
Super helpful
The chicken drinker is perfect !!
I was struggling to think of a vessel that would work
Took me ages to find a solution. I was looking for weeks then came across them. Glad it helps you.
Check out fast ferment conical beer fermenter, 7.9 gallon.
So your buying fuel then chucking 10% of it away. Plus the cost of all the chemistry equipment and octane booster makes it very expensive petrol?? Why not just buy E5 Shell V-power 99 octane at 10p a litre more. Or AVGAS [aeroplane petrol] which contain no ethanol at all.
Excellent video by the way.
Thank you for the compliment Gee. I guess it might be worth it for the classic car enthusiasts or maybe gardeners as I didn't realise the ethanol might be what causes the stuttering of the lawnmowers after winter but for me personally my MINI will run on E10 I believe so would leave it as it is but don't leave too much fuel in that could gather moisture over time.
@@CoatsandGaiters I've just had a look. AVGAS is roughly £190 a litre. I know someone who puts it in their classic bikes over winter. In America, I believe they sell petrol in cans off the shelf for lawn mowers etc. I assume it has no ethanol content and contains stabilisers etc? Mind you WE think we have it bad with E10. Some countries like Brazil have had E25 for quite some time???? That stuff would keep you busy LOL!!
@@MURDOCK1500 £190 a litre !!!!! gees that's pricey stuff. I think some countries have E85.
Its £1.80 a litre.
@@mhowers quite a bit more than regular unleaded then.
Just found your channel after searching for Peugeot timing belt, now I’m watching how to remove ethanol from petrol, I like it 👍
Haha Thank you. Which Peugeot?
@@CoatsandGaiters the 1.2 3 cylinder
@@cumbrianrider8903 That one lol
Excellent video, thanks mate 👍😎🏴
Thank you for saying so.
@@CoatsandGaiters except now they're shutting down petrol stations altogether lol.. it's SHTF time for next few years in my opinion empty shelves no food no petrol or diesel so no way to get around and all the food producing countries have been decimated by floods and forest fires so no crops this year only a matter of time I think before it's anarchy. So much for ethanol what about the crops to make it they're wiped out I'd imagine.
@@AB-C1 blimey did I just write all that ? you said word for word how I think lol I think we are entering a rather scary time as there appears to be no stability at all from what I see around me. Wouldn't it be lovely to go back to how life was in the early 90's.
@@CoatsandGaiters totally mate. We are all being controlled having our freedom taken away from all angles for whatever their intentions who knows this Plan-demic engineered vaccines in conjunction with Tech companies like wtf no one questions it!? ( with god knows what in them!?) Trying to close all the footpaths and byways in England now unless they're registered! So all the ancient "rights of way"! They've banned overnight tenting and parking camping in national parks ALREADY/currently! Basically they want us ALL where there's CCTV on us, reliant on the government so they have control over us like wartime rationing! NASA been controlling the weather since early 1990s they "made it rain" on a young Jeremy Clarkson on Top Gear to show the technology pumping out chemicals into the air and 15 minutes later it rained (bright sunny day!) So I'm sure in 30 years they've develop d that a bit further probably caused Thea forest fire and floods as part of the big population cull/control and manipulation. And they're trying to stop people living off Grid by banning camping in effect.. thats not just conspiracy theory btw that's stuff I found out fact over last few months and that's the conclusion I've come to. Everyone know diesels are the most environmentally friendly cars when you take into account mpg emissions reliability, longevity and how produced upkeep plus they can run on ANYTHING! doesn't have to be Diesel! So in that case they'd be clean energy in effect. But government was losing too much money cos they last longer and don't drink like petrol. Now you see people using E10 say they're getting proper shit mpg and the ethanol is not sustainable they're using what would be food farms to produce the crops for ethanol so less food to supply a proxy amount of harmful chemical to add to petrol still.. so how's that environmentally friendly!? Also how many people now gotta buy new cars!? All 1litre turbos so blow up in 40kmiles max the another new car more carbon emission to produce. Electric isn't viable the grid can't support it and it's not viable in current battery tech anyway. So Diesel is CLEARLY the best option until/unless they allow the hydrogen engines to be developed or the free energy that Nikola Tesla rediscovered 120+ years ago and knew we could all have free zero point energy. CIA stole all that tech and when back yard inventors I'm 70s and 80s developed cars that ran on water using technology, and other abundant fuel sources they either bought the patent and sat on it/did NOTHING with it, or they killed the inventors if they didn't play ball..
I worked on the International Petroleum Exchange, so I know how rigged the oil market is.. OPEC etc.
There's no oil shortage either that's just a rouse to charge high prices.
If they wanted to have clean energy they have the technology already.
They're doing the exact opposite to tax the population. And now look with the fuel shortages driver shortages and food shortages coming.. in addition to the extreme weather, floods fires and earthquakes.. it's like Armageddon, something out of the biblical stories or something not that I'm religious! I'm just a realist take the evidence I see and make my own mind up. The so called conspiracy theorists who were laughed at 2 3 even 5 years ago have all been proven they were right it's played out EXACTLY how they said as far fetched as it seemed back then.
Frightening really..
Great vid!
I would leave the fuel/water mix a little longer though, you need to get every last trace of water out of the petrol. This is likely why your first test didn't remove the 5% you expected as well. I ride old motorbikes and am currently using petrol additives but these cost 10-30p per litre!
I'll be washing petrol soon, in addition to using used veg oil in my diesel engines!
I think your right. It's probably best left overnight.
Giving it time to fully phase separate is a good idea. Also the resulting volume of adding ethanol and water doesn't equal the sum of the two volumes, it's a strange quirk of chemistry.
@@tubularfrog I did see a video on what your talking about and was quirky, something about the molecules fitting into each other and resulting in a lower volume as I recall. Think your probably know about it exactly.
The 'Law of Partial Pressure' will drive the final octane rating of the final blend. Although the octane rating of ethanol is 110, one not need to add anything with an octane rating that high, In addition to water washing my fuel (as you demonstrated beautifully), I back-add two stroke oil to compensate for potential loss of lubricity additives. Since I run High performance fuel, I also add 2-EHN (2-theyl hexyl nitrate) - - - don't let it stay in the system, , , ,it might rot the carburettor parts and lines......Otherwise I do not add octane booster unless the engine knocks, but if so desired, one could add light mineral spirits ( % is determined by final application). (former fuel / hydrocarbon chemist ) Once again , , ,Thanks for the splendid video
Thank you for all that information Thomas. All a bit above my level but pretty certain it will make interesting reading to those that read this. Take care.
If it's a low temperature engine, n-pentane, n-hexane, or even a cyclo-pentane, or cyclo-hexane can be used instead of light mineral spirits , , ,or you can add ethanol (lol)
@@thomasgronek6469 Brain Overload !!!! I failed all my GCSE's you know.
@@CoatsandGaiters LOL you do splendid videos, and provided valuable technique for ethanol extraction. you also picked up a new subscriber and FB follower, thank you very much.
@@thomasgronek6469 Thank you Sir for your support and compliments. Take care
I have been experimenting with this for some months - I have found that the food colouring interferes slightly with the process, also I have found that too much water will stop the process - but the big finding was that some batches of fuel had almost not ethanol at all ! I think as we are still in the change phase to E10 the refineries have not yet got to producing the full 10% in our fuel .
Thank you for the comment. It's probably better to avoid adding the food colouring if you can, though it does make seeing the water separation a bit harder. I expect your right that the percentage could vary a lot up to the 10% level.
@@CoatsandGaiters I work for a big fuel company in Holland and there is 0-5 % added on E5 and 0-10% added on E10. So it's not 5 and 10 % ethanol .
@@Chappomusic Thank you for your comment. I guess it can be lower if they choose to put a lower level in but I was basing things on them putting in the maximum allowed of 5% for E5 and 10% for E10.
Ethanol is expensive now (Sep 2021) and there are also other gasoline components to meet the bio-target in petrol. In NL, many high octane grades (>98 octane) don’t contain ethanol. In France, E10 has 7% ethanol and 6% ether.
@@baaf777 Thank you for adding that information. So much more to all these fuels than one realises.
Brilliant video. Thank you 👌👍
Thank you for saying so and Merry Christmas
Finally, a chemist at the helm.
I wouldn't go that far lol but thank you.
Great video, thank you.
As an aside, I believe that E5 and E10 are up to 5% and 10%, so it may be a little lower in your particular batch.
Thank you for the comment. Like you say it might be different between different producers and suppliers.
I did pretty much the same thing in one of my videos a couple of months ago, and was surprised by how fast the ethanol separates from the petrol and settles into the water. I expected to have to wait a few hours, but it only took about 5 mins.
I agree it doesn't seem to take long for phase separation to take place.
Yet another great video; perhaps you don’t need an Aspen type fuel if you can add an octane booster to your now ethanol free fuel, as long as you know where you’ve arrived? For me I’ll stick with Aspen as I unfortunately don’t have the space, time and the demand to justify the effort vs cost saving.
Thank you again Richard. To be honest I think the aspen sounds better for garden equipment over winter.
Never heard of the 30 litres of petrol storage limit before, so you can fill your car with 70 litres and park it on your drive no problem, but fill a few Jerry cans and your supposed to tell someone! Every days a school day!
They probably can't uphold it but I bet an insurance company would if there was a fire and they had to do a pay out.
Yes that's correct you can only store a very small amount of petroleum spirit on your premises in cans it's been the norm for decades
@@CoatsandGaiters that's why you store it in a shack next to the house.
@@L0RDLUK very true, makes sense
@@keithdunderdale8027 That would have been me buggered then when I stored approx 120 ltrs of petrol in 20ltr metal jerry cans in my garden shed a few years back. Good job there was no combustion and a fire...😒
Very interesting, thanks.
Thank you
I would put a clear inline fuel filter on the hose when draining out the fuel after the ethanol has been drained.
They were always a handy way of checking for fuel contamination on older carburettor fed cars.
Good thinking.
Thanks very interesting and useful
Thank you
Very interesting. I'd been wondering about ethanol removal after finding that my chainsaws simply will not run properly on fuel with higher ethanol percentages and had been wondering about dissolving the ethanol in water and then separating the ethanol laden water .
If you got your hands on a glass jar from a milking parlour you would have a completely clear vessel approximately the same size as your chicken drinker. Still with a tapered bottom and outlet.
Thank you for the comment and suggestion. Hope the video helps.
Good job
Thank you Bob
Excellent
Thank you Adam
A Pint! thats very nearly an armful. Cheers
Nice job god bless
Thank you
Interesting, I guess all of us car enthusiasts might be doing this in our sheds in 20 years time.
Will there be any fuel at all in 20 years time I wonder.
@@CoatsandGaiters with the way things are going who knows, I plan to make the most of it until then though!
@@CoatsandGaiters I've successfully run my gasoline engines on "almost" pure alcohol ( unfortunately its difficult to remove 100% of the water and such ) There is a few modifications needed on small air-cooled engines to make it a perinate fuel source. In a car its a bit more complicated, but still more than do-able! I'd say more so, with classic vehicles verses modern. In the absence of crude oil, I know my internal combustion engines have other options! (: Another great alternative is propane, wich is a great solution for the modern engines that may not be able to convert to alcohol easily or cost effectively. Gasoline is not needed, it is simply the best option for the budget minded individual. I strongly suggest any car enthusiast to explore the engines out there that actively have kits available to propane conversion, I will point out many school buses in the United States use a Ford V10 engine running propane, and many taxi cabs use the ford 4.6L v8 converted to propane as well. It is very common, and its 110 octane, so you can add more timing to the engine. : D
@@CoatsandGaiters So as long as people like me exist, it will be available. I will make sure of that...PS: I'm half your age most likely.
That debris that you found is exactly what I found plugin my weed eater carburetor after sitting all winter. And it was impossible to get out carburetor cleaner don't brake it down.
I have found that emptying my lawn mower and running it till it stalls seems the safest way to store things over winter or if not being used for a while. I've also realised the surging you often get is the water that's separated and sunk to the bottom.
Brilliant
Thank you
Thanks for the video. To conclude; the result is a reduced octane petrol, without ethanol, but needed an octane booster additive to bring the octane back to 95 Ron. And a significant effort for the process and all additional costs. I wonder whether it would be cheaper and simpler in the long run, to modify the older engines to accept the E10 with only the effort to modify the engine as the cost.
Do I detect some sarcasm there David haha. Yes your right it's a lot of work for what appears to be little reward and high cost. You didn't mention the risk of explosion and fire !! you were holding back lol I shall stay neutral as I don't own a classic car so unsure how big an issue E10 is to the classic car community. Thankfully my MINI is ok I believe on E10.
@@CoatsandGaiters Apart from the fact, it will not perform as well & it won't go as far per gallon... 🤔
@@barriewilliams4526 I’ve only used £35 worth so far and getting the same Performce +mpg
Use the Super Unleaded. Yes, it's a little more at the pump but avoids the ethanol problem.
@@adventtrooper Probably quickest solution at the moment.
You could theoretically reuse some of that de-mineralized water by boiling off the ethanol by heating it up to 80 degrees using a basic still.
That now makes sense to keep the water rather than add more to the overall cost. Good thinking Doc.
so would running this petrol be preferable over standard E5 in a 1980s carbed motorcycle?
Well once the ethanol is out you could put a traditional octane booster in that wasn’t ethanol.
Ethanol and water for an Azeotropic solution, and when combined, at a 50ml 50ml ratio, will not yield 100 ml, it will only yield 86 ml. Thank you for the video. There is some smudge in the flask, , , that smudge [edit: debris] might be lubricity additives, , , I add back a bit of two stroke oil to compensate for the loss If dry gas is imperative, I add a handful of plaster of Paris ,[edit, shake well] and let it sit for a day or two, then filter through a paper filter made from a brown paper bag.
I love it when you get real experts comment as you can't type a reply as your not up to the conversation level. I'm just going to say thank you for sharing valuable information.
If the lid on the chicken drinker was a little larger it would be great for brewing my beer in! :)
Is that after you've removed the ethanol from your petrol? lol
Hello, excellent tutorial. How did you attach the air fitting to the barrel? Also could a tap be fitted instead?
Cheers, Chris
Thank you Chris. I just screwed it in as it was about the right size. You could easily adapt to fit a tap if you were careful. A small tap that is.
wait are pump is marked 93 octane are they doing something to the fuel to lower the octane and then bring it back up to 93 with alcohol ?
Just giving you less real fuel and switching it for cheaper ethanol.
Thanks for the video
Question
How do you know how many octane booster you need to had ? And how many octane do you loose when you remove the ethanol out of your gaz ?
Thanks
I'm not really a chemist so probably not the best one to ask. Sorry
I think the particles in the water are caused by the carplan water used. I purchased a five l container only to find it was contaminated with what appeared to be many small fibres. I think its the waist water from air con units and de humidifiers, unfiltered. Have a look in the bottle next time you open one.
ewwwww that sounds terrible !!! Will look next time.
The more I look into this process the more I see a need for filtering all components before and after.
How do you add Octaine. ? And how do you dispose of the water/ethanol mix? Many thanks.
You can buy a replacement to add back in. But don't buy the ethanol one. Ethanol is only alcohol so can be safely disposed of in the garden like you would an old bottle of vodka.
I mix the extracted Ethanol and water with systematic weed killer. It speeds up the process considerably and you can plant as soon as you've burnt the dead brush off.
That’s handy to know. Better than just wasting it down the drain.
Just a daft question, I totally agree with what you are doing.....
But IV been using big water separator filtration systems for diesel engines....
Would these work in a continuous system.
Drawing off the water (bottom of filtter pack) as the petrol flows out fuel out port????
I think the diesel separators work on a slightly different idea in that water sinks anyway when in diesel as they wont mix at all.
Sounds like a coalescer filter, heavily used in aviation jet fueling to remove even the tiniest of water droplets. Would be cool to see if they work with ethanol/water mix just separating it away as if it was pure water. Otherwise, such a filter had to be specifically made for the purpose of alcohol.
@@rosen9425 is there ethanol in aviation fuel I wonder?
@@CoatsandGaiters
There is not. Not a good application even if a jet engine can run it no problem.
Interesting, what do you do with the water/ethanol mix? Has it got any used or just throw in on next bonfire?
It's pretty much useless like an old bottle of contaminated Vodka.
Brilliant video and a easy to follow process. Where do you dispose of the water & ethanol? Leave it in a tray to evaporate I guess? Still confused regarding the requirement for an octane booster. I'm only using it fir a lawnmower so is it required?
Thank you for the compliment. It should only be water and alcohol so probably no different to disposing of a bottle of vodka. It probably would be better to add a bit of octane booster ideally.
Lawnmower engines are not high compression and thus no octane Booster is necessary.
@@miguelangelsimonfernandez5498 Thank you for that information. Worth knowing.
Check out the plunger position of your syringe at 6.58 that's not 10ml but 20, you can see the plunger much higher up the syringe when you measure 11ml so you actually removed 21ml of Ethanol much closer to your expected 25ml
Thank you for your comment and your the 2nd to have noticed this but the first syringe was a 10ml one and I switched it to a 20ml syringe when I changed camera positions as I realised it would be more than 10ml. Tried to correct my oversight but it backfired on me lol At 7:07 the syringe gets bigger as I switch cameras.
I think most octane boosters contain ethanol, so it doesn't make much sense to remove the ethanol and then add some more. Also, how do you dispose of the water/ethanol mixture?
Thank you for the question. The after market octane boosters probably use the previously banned Tetraethyllead so it wouldn't be ethanol. The water ethanol mix is the same as normal alcohol so you could just leave it outside to evaporate.
would you need the octane booster for 2 stroke engines? thanks
Not sure what engine you have so I'd see what the manufacturer says about what octane fuel to use. Removing ethanol will lower the octane slightly so the worry is engine knock which can be damaging to the engine. Personally I'd remove the ethanol if you have to but add an octane booster to be on the safe side.
You shoudn't need it, unless you are racing it, all you really need to do for two stroke is line/coat your fuel tank, as ethanol is corrosive over time.
It's high high performance engines that suffer with lower octane rating.
@@jedde-wiltonholmes3549 very true.
Is it normal that I've seen a 5.6% drop in fuel economy with E10? I filled up with super unleaded E5 to see if it makes a difference (if I get the 5.6% back then the extra 6p/L will save me money while fuel prices are high, considering 5.6% of £1.40 is 7.8p more fuel used per litre, I'm hoping to get a double whammy though as my car used to get slightly better fuel economy with 97 octane anyway)
I think it's acknowledged that we will loose some mpg with the added ethanol sadly.
🙏 Thanks...
Thank you for watching
Great video!!!!!!! IN canada our gov't has crammed ethanol fuels down everytones throat.( And no you can't buy ethanol free in premium anymore ). A lot of people are gonna starting doing this instead of damaging all their small engines with E10 garbage. Question, what kind of sealant did you use when you tapped the bottom of the chicken feeder? Just wondering as petrol dissolves so many... what did you use.?
Thank you for the comment Jim. I don't think I used any sealant as it was a tight fit. It cut it's own thread as I forced it in as I recall.
Use a big demijohn one with clear glass for wine making, and no food color. And more water.
Then mount the John upside down with a seal and a hose.
Funny you should say that as my first video was using demijohns. czcams.com/video/UTy7jcDaYxI/video.html
What is octane boosters made from ? Trying to make sure I’m not putting ethanol back in after I did all the work. Because I just saw ethanol is what boosts the octane rate
Hope this helps. Octane number of fuels can be improved by addition of oxygenates such as ethanol, MTBE (methyl tert-butyl ether), TBF (tertiary butyl formate) and TBA (tertiary butyl alcohol)
@@CoatsandGaiters that’s what I was thinking he got rid of the ethanol then the octane is basically putting the ethanol back in
@@jonoxthomascito6516 I'm wondering if some of them are like the older banned types of lead additives.
@@CoatsandGaiters damn I was worried about the lessor evil 🤔
I believe the bigger question is When doing this process does it also remove the Acid from the gasoline as well!!!!!!! Alcohol & gasoline = acidity so does water the acids eat on the metals in the delivery to cylinder then it attacks valves and valve seats equaling destroyed equipment!!!!!!! I add approximately 1/2 oz of 2 stroke oil to 1 gallon gasoline, it does appear to protect the metals from the acids!!!!!!!
Thank you for the comment. Interesting point.
Now I know why my father, a physical chemist for an oil company, told me that "oil men" hate ethanol. Too easy to contaminate in large underground tanks with water, from condensation or other environmental source. I always seek ethanol-free fuel. One thing I learned from him is that when the big tanker trucks come and fill up a gas station, the flow stirs up whatever contaminants happen to be in the bottom there. This was one of his first investigative projects back in the 1950s, and I don't know how they have improved it.
That's an interesting comment. Thank you for that.
This is brilliant. I have an older American motorcycle, that appears to have been nearly destroyed by ethanol/ water damage having been left standing year after year with old fuel in its systems. So I've found your video amazing, thank you, and I am successfully separating the ehanol, and the water at final filtering. But I have a question, what does this process do to the Octane of the finished petrol. Is the a better cleaner fuel but with a lower Octane, that i can't use in my American motorcycle that should be running on 91(American) Octane, 99 (UK) Octane.??
Thank you for the comment. Your right in thinking it lowers the octane by removing the ethanol. So really your want to add an octane booster that isn't an ethanol one. I think you can still get the previous ones which were Tetraethyllead. Hope this helps.
@@CoatsandGaiters Tnank you for your video, and kind help regarding your reply, its very much appreciated you taking the time out to reply. Thank you again, Best regards Pete.
@@petesmimob Thank you and hope it's helped you.
Hi! I don't like wasting money, and dealing with both lawnmowers, snowblowers and winter conservation of boat engines it comes down to quite a lot of fuel being removed trough the seasons. What I have done over time is to drain the petrol higher up in the container, where there is guaranteed to be less debris an water/alcohol contamination. Then i remove about 95% of the water from the bottom, dumping the rest (0,5l or thereabout) in to a container and store it until the next batch. Now, when i get to about 10L in that container I go trough the original prosess again, removing about 95% of the petrol, and 95% of the water. Throw this back in to the storage container, and repeat the cycle again. This way, and I usually let it sit in the separator a couple of days, you will end up wasting next to no fuel at all over time.
Before setting aside equipment for a long time, I then use pure gasoline with some two stroke oil added to it and just run it until it runs empty. I never experience problems the next year.
Thank you for sharing your experience on this subject. Much appreciated.
Hello again, according to logic, and my continued reading, adding water will first “saturate” the blended ethanol. Most of this is removed by the process you demonstrate, but whatever remains is saturated, and will phase separate over time with no additional absorption capacity. This alone could make the exercise counterproductive, guaranteeing further phase separation in the fuel tank. Literature indicates stripping out of gasoline octane value as well (other ingredients stripped out into ethanol-water mix)
Am now looking at fuel additives that instead absorb water and remain in the fuel.
Also it seems that counterintuitively a car fuel tank that is kept full most of the time absorbs less water than one kept empty. I suppose the solution for garden machinery is to drain the tank completely after use. When fresh fuel is added, it should dissolve any water that has phase separated.
This would indicate diy ethanol/water phase separation may not be the most effective procedure to prevent corrosive water/alcohol phase getting into the engine.
Cheers
Thank you for the comment but I'm not quite understanding. This process is to remove the ethanol using water and not to remove water from fuel.
@@CoatsandGaiters I imagine additional experimental treatment of a batch is something I would consider doing, using mass extraction/a set of scales, to reach a point where it is impossible to remove more ethanol regardless of further attempts. This might indicate that future phase separation is impossible. But doesn’t answer concerns about loss of ether/octane loss/contaminants in the water, further affected by repeat treatments.
@@davidgriffiths7696 I did a previous one here czcams.com/video/UTy7jcDaYxI/video.html
Could you please post a bit more detail or a link for the 40 l chicken drinker? Perfect solution, but can't seem to find it with google!
Hi I add all the links below in my description for tooling and equipment. Hope this helps. I have two for sale lol
@@CoatsandGaiters Thanks so much. Here's the US counterpart: www.miller-mfg.com/product/DOMEWTR10.html
There is a guy selling chicken drinkers re-badged as ethanol removal kits for €150 ! A chicken drinker retails at €40 to €50, that's a nice mark up for the cost of a sticker!!!
Serious !!!! who's that then? cheeky bugger. It should be me selling them.
@@CoatsandGaiters Google it(ethanol removal kits €150)
have you run this fuel after separation ??
Yes
I am wondering if this process is also removing the fuel additive package with the separation process.......?
I have no idea
Just be aware that removing the ethanol from E10 will reduce the octane rating to 93 if the original fuel was rated at 95 (ethanol has an octane rating of 113)
Thank you, this is very true.
you are getting confused with methanol.....
Could you remove the water ethanol mix and replace it with 99% isopropyl alcohol. Would this be a better e5/10 fuel
Thank you for the question Daniel but the water and ethanol mix is what we created to remove the ethanol that was put in the fuel at manufacturing. The water isn’t in the fuel originally it’s just the means to remove that alcohol to leave a cleaner petrol in affect. The alcohol can be quite strong on rubber parts which is the concern.
Yes i get that, but in theory isopropyl wouldnt hard the rubbers as its not an ethanol mix, it would in theory burn cleaner aswell
@@fociidannick oh I see, do apologise. Not sure what the difference is between the two alcohols. I know isopropyl is used in electronics for cleaning. Used to be the go to substance to clean tape heads and pinch rollers.
Hi , tried your water ratios and my fuel has just gone milky. If I add more water then shake it will the phase separation happen ?
you can add as much water as you like as it will separate once left. Milky seems odd though. Is petrol and not diesel?
Defo petrol . I done small batch’s and worked fine. So I went 30 litres of petrol and 1 litres of water and seems like the water hasn’t don’t the phase separation. When I pour it into a clear jug looks like there’s still small wee water molecule’s in it. Just wondering if I didn’t add enough water for the separation. I’m gonna try adding more water and shaking it. I left it for 24 hours the first time. So not quite sure what’s happens
@@Snambell999 shake it well
Might it be possible to use a coalescing filter - these are cheap and off the shelf for diesel - use a bit of clever science to force water droplets to grow until they are large enough to fall to the bottom of the filter - many have a draincock on the bottom of a clear chamber so you could dispense with the chicken drinker.
I did have an issue with ethanol fuel on a boat - the fuel lines had a plastic liner to stop the fuel attacking the rubber - but marina switched to ethanol adulterated fuel and that unglued the liner which detached and concertina'd up, blocking the fuel lines - as the fuel lines were bought from the marina it was an interesting conversation with the marina manager!
That's a really interesting comment. Now looking into that as I didn't know what one was. I know you can get filters that are fine enough to let the petrol through but not the water which are readily available.
@@CoatsandGaiters have a look at Racor 500FG - housing and filter under £30 and they also use a cyclone effect to spin out the droplets...
@@andrewgray1949 Thank you, I presume that's if the water has come out of suspension bit like the water separator for a diesel car do you think?
@@CoatsandGaiters It's a water repelling membrane on the filter and the racor uses a vortex to help the water droplets to bind together and grow - more important for diesels than petrols as water droplets in the fuel can turn to steam in the heat of a diesel injector and cause damage.
Where this will help is with smaller water droplets which would take much longer to settle - think about an aerosol, the water droplets are so fine they will remain airborne for longer...
The only people who will dislike these information videos on removing the E from P are the eco nuts😘
Thanks for giving us the point of view of the Saudi Royal family. Personally I love E10 as it means 10% less of my money goes to those scumbags.
Wow can we drink that water ethanol mix? It'd be like vodka?
The way things are going I think we will all need bottles of Vodka just to sedate us so we can carry on in this climate of change and upheaval.
Is that chicken drinker plastic impervious to petrol?
I believe it's made of Polyethylene (PE) though fuel cans are made of High Density Polyethylene . Polyethylene (PE) is the most widely used thermoplastic polymer for fabricated parts and components. It is available in a variety of grades and formulations to suit different needs. In general, polyethylenes offer excellent chemical and impact resistance, electrical properties and low coefficient of friction. In addition, polyethylenes are lightweight, easily processed and offer near-zero moisture absorption.
🖖 👍
where can i get the container to do this
I think I added the links in the description
Ethanol is an octane booster. If you remove it then you will need to use an additive to get the same performance
Quite right Peter like Tetraethyllead or it's replacement.
Just one question, if ethanol has a higher octane rating than petrol, why does E10 fuel have a lower octane rating than E5? One would think that reducing he ethanol would improve the octane rating.
Good question but sadly I'm not the one to answer it.
Is the extracted 10 ml ethanol/water mix you syringed off actually only water? Ethanol is miscible so you'd have to filter it to remove the water. Try a hydrometer. It will tell you the concentration.
No it would be ethanol and water, basically the water I put in pulling the ethanol out of the fuel as it drops out of separation.
People should check petrol supplies in their area. Esso still sells ethanol free petrol in certain parts of the England.
Wonder if there is a website showing what each station sells for the UK.
@@CoatsandGaiters Esso's website has the current information, I know Humberside and West Yorkshire, esso super unleaded is still ethanol free. Even though its ethanol free, the pumps by law must show E5.
What happens to all the added stuff that is in modern fuel? e.g the detergents lubricants etc.. do they remain in the petrol or are they or some of them removed with the ethanol? Also what is the octane rating of the petrol once the ethanol is removed just out of curiosity. Ever thought about sending samples of ethanol removed petrol and E10 petrol off to be tested for a full composition breakdown, that way we can see what is actual left in the fuel after the removal of the ethanol e.g making sure the additives are still there :-)
As far as I'm aware only the ethanol is removed. The video is only to offer a solution to the easiest method I could think of to do the task by the common known method. By removing the ethanol your probably taking premium down to regular petrol without adding an octane booster back in.
The word is, supermarket petrol has the most additives, and tests showed you get less miles per liter ..
@@jedde-wiltonholmes3549 they have tended to say avoid supermarket fuel if you drive a performance vehicle. Guess you can have it cheap and expect the best.
This would be great to run a gallon through my bike ,it's has carburettors prior to storing up over winter
You can buy Aspen fuel which lasts years apparently.
@@CoatsandGaiters thanks
The Super Unleaded has less ethanol (for example, Esso state that "Synergy Supreme+ 99 contains zero ethanol, except (for logistics reasons) sites supplied from Scotland, North Wales, North England and Cornwall.") so I'd recommend that for less used vehicles if you can't get/store Aspen easily.
@@adventtrooper I wonder though if E10 is only the start of more and more ethanol being added. My old 2001 MINI is fine with E10 but if E15 etc comes out I wonder where we turn unless this is the start of trying to get older cars off the road gradually.
@@CoatsandGaiters
In short.
No.
E15 is HIGHLY unlikely.
I writ a massive rant about why but cut to the chase the automotive industry is moving away from fossil fuels anyway and the eu directive in 2011 about e10 (the mandatory implementation that all petrol vehicles sold in the eu have to be able to use e10 as standard, plus some other guff) has made little to no progress in the light of the 'electric revolution'
I won't harp into the bio fuel debacle as I could write a 2 page article on the matter
What I actually forsee is e10 becoming obsolete and you'll only be able to buy premium fuel at select stations and it may suffer the same fate as 4 and 5 start gently disappearing into history books. Maybe. I think it will be kept as one or two pumps at the major players at one site in every 40 miles.
My other insight is the direction of burning hydrogen (rather than the 'electric revolution's' electrolysis generators, like the Mirai) Look for the corolla that ran on hydrogen combustion about 4 months ago.. and converting petrol cars is apparently, not that difficult (no one is talking price though! Hahaha!)
Fact is, bio fuel came with all the glitz and hype that it would save us and be cheaper and greener and ended up going the same way as nuclear energy and has ended up being a massive waste of money. The endeavour has been a net loss for BP, even with tax money having been spent on it (albeit, a bit sideways, we are talking 15 or so years ago)
...And even that turned into a bit of stormer of post rant.
G'day
Edit: when I say obsolete, I'm talking e5 will still be available. Looking say, 30 to 40 years from now.
How do you dispose of the ethanol once removed?
I guess you could take it to your local waste recycling centre though ethanol is just a bio alcohol so would presumably evaporate out of the water and likewise the water would evaporate given time on it's own. Would it be the same as disposing of the contents of old bottles of whisky or vodka I wonder?
Dump it down the sink!
Use it to burn (I mean heat) a still (coiled evaporator) on your next batch to evaporate more alcohol out the water (then re use the water).
Theoretical cycle but may well need some outside source to complete the cycle.
Add tonic.
Be interesting to do it now with e10 . And see if u can get 8 or 10 percent
True! though I didn't really enjoy playing with petrol much lol
If you have a petrol daily then the whole E10 separation won't be an issue as your driving everyday leaving your car stationary for only 8-10 hours per day however if you really are that scared then just use the E5 super unleaded simple.
If you're going to extract the ethanol, which I don't recommend, you should wash the gas at least a couple of times in your separatory funnel, then dry the gas through a buchner funnel loaded with granular anhydrous sodium sulfate. Taking the ethanol out reduces the octane rating by about 4 points for E10 gas. The added cost of using a quality octane booster adds a significant amount to your fuel price.
Thank you for some expert advice, should help others if they choose to do this. Like you say removing the ethanol is costly overall.
@@CoatsandGaiters But....is it as costly as repairing the damage to fuel system components that ethanol causes? I think not.
In the USA they have the option to buy ethanol free 'recreational' fuel, but here in the UK we are having it forced upon us.
@@leathleyg5995 we get everything forced upon us and then get told we are a free country and we are all free to choose how and what we spend our money on.
Is the UK just now getting ethanol in their petrol?
If you get in touch with the retail offices of the fuel distributors, you should find that the most expensive stuff on the pumps is generally ethanol free from the refineries. Need ethanol free fuel? Buy the highest RON on the pumps. I’ve been through a number of retailers here in Canada, and with one notable exception, everyone’s premium fuel is ethanol free. It’s the super premium stuff advertised with the highest octane that has as much ethanol as the regular petrol, 10% or more
Thank you for your comment Gregory.
@@CoatsandGaiters a pleasure. Just trying to save everyone time/money/effort. I’ve contacted the corporate offices of the retailers and the party line is that there is zero ethanol in Premium gasoline, in most places…and then there’s the super premium exception.
And while someone suggested 100LL AvGas - that has lead that modern engines dislike. I’d wager it would clog up DI engines quite quickly.
Good luck everyone
Could you freeze it and drain the petrol off?
I think you have to add the water to bring the ethanol out of the solution.
Phase separation should be assisted by adding a little salt to the separatING funnel. Salt increases the surface tension in the aqueous phase and makes it more dense. Both factors should assist separation. But try it out on a smaller scale first. Good luck!
If you wanted to dry the fuel, you need to shake the fuel phase with anhydrous ( very dry) calcium chloride granules following the phase separation. Then filter the calcium chloride off. Drying, however, is probably not necessary. As always, try it out on a small scale first. Then up-scale. Work outside the house, away from flames and sparks (grass and hedge cutting devices). Absolutely no smoking near any of this equipment!
Thank you so much for such valuable information. Sounds like you really know your fuels. Are you in the fuel industry by any chance.
@@CoatsandGaiters Hi C&G, I've worked in an organic chemistry laboratory, where phase separation was a frequent necessity. Between you and me, the introduction of E10 fuel has nothing to do with clean air. Car emissions are very low today compared to 2 decades ago. It is a ploy to get older vehicles off the road to force everyone to go electric. Again, I don't think the real reason is for cleaner air, but rather to bolster the auto industry and tax revenues by forcing us to by new expensive electric cars.
@@LaHayeSaint Never thought of that. I keep asking though who can afford these electric cars. I can barely afford to keep a 20 year old MINI on the road so cannot see me ever coming across an electric car in real life. I heard Hydrogen was the way forward and JCB has made great inroads on that.
@@CoatsandGaiters Coats and Gaiters -- Hydrogen sounds like manna from heaven. The problem is how do you make it. Make it the wrong way, and you can have a massive carbon footprint. Also, in a crash, if the fuel tank or line becomes ruptured, highly explosive gas will be sure to find a spark.
@@LaHayeSaint This is the JCB video on YT, it was pretty interesting to see why JCB said Hydrogen has to be the way forward in their eyes.
czcams.com/video/19Q7nAYjAJY/video.html
19:15 - Just to be pedantic, 400ml of ethanol per 9.6 litres of petrol; 10 litres of pumped juice includes the 400ml. 9600/400 = 4.2% 😉
Very good lol
Why would I remove ethanol from e10 or e5?
You probably don't need to but some may choose to for a few reasons. I explained more reasons for removing it in my first video on the subject. czcams.com/video/UTy7jcDaYxI/video.html
Are you not worried about vapour cloud , explosion ? A lot of pouring filling going on , also health breathing fumes ? Am I being tooo worried?
That's why I was more than happy when I finished making the video. I found playing with petrol to be rather unnerving for the fire risk it poses.
@@CoatsandGaiters ok !
Ethanol is added to gasoline as an octane booster to replace lead. What do you add to compensate the octane rating?
I think you can buy octane boosters from automotive shops or online.
@@CoatsandGaiters Point taken.. what are they composed of?
@@RaysLaughsAndLyrics Sorry I have no idea but found this if it helps on the net. They are typically a blend of tetraethyl lead, alcohols (including ethanol), traces of methylpropyl, manganese, toluene, and ethers. Products will vary on the blend of these ingredients, but these are normally the base for most octane boosters.
@@CoatsandGaiters Exactly.. all the toxic soup that causes serious health consequences. Take the time to research all of these toxins.
Should we also give folks the option of painting children's cribs with lead based paint...? I seriously worry about the sanity of the old school diehards.
@@RaysLaughsAndLyrics All very true, I presume they make an allowance as the numbers of people that would go through all this trouble to remove ethanol would be fairly small, especially since it will add to the cost considerably. As a cyclist I can vouch that cleaner air is important. Nothing worse than being forced to breath the chemicals in while your trying to cycle to stay fit.
It would have to be quite old if the ethonol isnt there anymore i think you just have to leave it a bit longer a day or two volume depending in all good video will help alot of people
Thank you Jeff
Since E10 and higher Ethanol based fuels have been used in other countries for a while now, is it possible to speak to people with experience about it to ask what the effects of it on their cars/engines has been and how they countered any negatives?
Also as a note the Octane of the new UK E10 is actually less than E5, which had me greatly puzzled.
Hi if you get time your find a lot of comments with people of experience in my comments. Some have had big issues over the years from what I've read. But it's probably 50/50 good to bad.
Well I'm from America, 'or used to be America' and everyone I know says they get worse miles per gallon with ethanol. I find myself this to be true
@@stephenhappy6259 hi, I think that's to be true. I'm from what used to be the Great Britain !!!! Not sure it's so great anymore either.
@@CoatsandGaiters I live in the US and can confirm that 10% ethanol provides about 20% less miles per gallon than pure gas. I have an antique truck that I have checked mpg's for both pure gas and E90. I get around 11 mpg with ethanol and 12-13 mpg with pure gas. On the other hand, I have noticed that my old truck has a bit more horsepower when I use ethanol.
@@diggerddawg Interesting that you notice a bit more power but at the expenses of mpg
It’s a lot easier then this add in. Quart of rubbing alcohol and wait 24hours and the ethanol will separate out to the alcohol and sink to the bottom of the container as ethanol is hydrophilic
I think I would have put the mix in the demijohn instead. Used a solid bung to give it a shake, then a two hole rubber bung fitted with an air vent and a straight glass tube installed down to just above the separation line. Then sucked the petrol out with a pump leaving the ethanol and water phase behind. That has the advantage that you have your attention most acute in the positioning of the glass tube at the start of the process, before sucking the fuel out, rather than at the end of a tedious draining process, where your attention may wander.
I did one with demijohns as well. Is this how you meant. czcams.com/video/UTy7jcDaYxI/video.html
@@CoatsandGaiters Not entirely. You can buy rubber bungs to fit demijohns. They can have holes, or be solid. These can take various fittings. You're moving the demijohn about and sticking a syringe into the water phase. This has the effect of causing turbulence and mixing the phases a bit. I suggest you suck out the petrol phase instead. Leave the water phase alone. To avoid turbulence, use a glass tube pushed through the bung to just above the line of phase separation. I thought about doing this years ago, as I have a load of demijohns in my shed from wine making. In the end I went the lazy route and bought the expensive Aspen Alkylate fuel.
@@dalriada842 I see what you mean, sadly I didn't have any rubber bungs for the demijohns at the time. I should order some for future use. I have heard Aspen is pretty good stuff and lasts years.
@@CoatsandGaiters It's worked well for me. My lawnmower loves the stuff, and I've noticed it's less smelly than using regular petrol. It does seem to last a long time without going stale. The only downside is the considerable cost!
@@dalriada842 I know I get a sore throat when mowing the lawn some say you don't get that with Aspen fuel.
The discrepancy is exactly what I find from refining sterling silver (92.5%) where I usually find it to be 90% copper and 14 karat gold (58.3%) that I find it to be only 49-50%. in this case the more expensive additive is the ethanol so they "cheat" a bit to save money. Look at your governing specifications to see what is the range of the percentage of ethanol that is supposed to be in the fuel. Probably a range like 5% +/_ 1.75%
What you say makes sense Robert.
The strange "sludge" and debris are what I have recently been getting in the fuel filter of my Ferguson tractor which is started on petrol but when warmed up is turned over to run on kerosene. At the weekend I put my first lot of E10 in and just ran it for a short while on petrol. I now have two distinct layers of whatever in the glass fuel filter bowl but both are clear!
Interesting !!! do you think it's the same sludge I had or could that be water separation?
@@CoatsandGaiters It looks very similar!
yeah it's common enough here in the US for the refiners to be stingy with the Ethanol.
I think the classic car enthusiasts would be happy with that. They don't want the ethanol as it might damage the rubber parts in their cars.
@@CoatsandGaiters I've got an old Harley Davidson, we've adapted by transitioning over to gaskets and seals that tolerate the ethanol.
@@2000freefuel I think that's going to have to happen over here now lol
The debris is a combination of bio solids and storage tank debris.
Cheers for that
We have non ethanol gas stations everywhere in the US.
Really !!! I thought you were the leaders of it with E85?