Is Geothermal Heating & Cooling Worth It?
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- čas přidán 30. 05. 2024
- Is Geothermal Heating & Cooling Worth It? It's been 4 years since I installed my DIY Geothermal System, and with some experience with it, I can firmly say it was worth every penny. It may not be the perfect system for every application, but it is perfect for mine. My average monthly electric bill is only $100 per month for a 6000 square foot house. I think that speaks volumes itself.
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As I got older and wiser, I found out the best way to improve efficiency was to move from our 5,700 sf home to our present 1700 sf home. Now we have a farm with horses, 3000 sf of external shop/ horse barn and a much more happy lifestyle from when what we had when we were chasing our tail . With solar, our electric bill is about 30 to 40 bucks per month with 2 stage air source heat pump. Electric bill with the older home was about $250 per month. Thanks for posting and good luck with your interesting builds Garrett.
Good deal!!!
Built a ground source heat pump in 1976 in Western Washington state. It performed well at one third cost of a Carrier heat pump next door. Dug down 4ft. 4 loops on 3 trenches for 3 ton unit. Used a r12 pump down system. Never lacked heating and cooling.
wait the existed back then?
My boss had a Rockwell heat exchanger from a building put in his home around that time. He has four 100 to 400' wells drilled. Beyond changing the motor out, it is still working. Nowhere
My 72 year old boss has a Rockwell heat exchanger installed around that time . it is not as efficient as today,s. But he used four wells, 100-400 ' deep. He has only changed a motor out in all that time.
He could probably save more by getting a newer heat pump and getting rid of that old one. He refuses, says it is part of his history.
I put in the original Geothermal heat pump in 1986 for our all electric house because we had no gas at our location. The cost was twice as much as a system that would use propane. The heat pump was very efficient, we had low electric bills for heating and cooling. After 10 years we needed a part to fix the Geothermal heat pump unit but the company went out of business. We had to buy another system and spent over $15,000, this lasted for around 15 years until the fluid in the loop ate out the inside of the unit. Then we had to replace the liquid in the loop and another unit which cost over $26,000. I will not use another Geothermal heat pump system again. In 30 years I spent over $48,000 on units, I did not get that back in savings. I am going with Mini-splits now.
Most are very complicated on the electronics and tend not use genetic parts. Things will always be cheaper on a ubiquitous gas boiler unit.
I'm going to just do a diy water system way cheaper to build and repair
@@williamkreth Hello. Would you be kind to tell me what exactly do you mean by diy water system?
But the tech has probably evolved in the nearly 4 decades since then, right? While your experience is unfortunate, installing in 1986 seems like your were an early adopter and your experience illustrates the ‘early adopter tax.’
Doesn’t seem necessarily applicable to a new install today.
@@poptamara you simply dig a deep circular hole lay plastic tubing wrapping around a few times, have a pump move water through the underground pipe going to a radiator with a fan. You have to properly size the system for whatever space you have
2004 I put in a well-type Geothermal in Folsom California. I designed and built my house as a simple carpenter's house. As a Carpenter I knew to go heavy on the insulation with 2x6 exterior walls and 2" rigid foam over that. The doors and windows are highly insulative as well as the clay tile roof. I put in 4 each 250 foot wells for a 2200 sf house. We had to rock drill but hit water at 85 feet. My electricity bill averages $150 per month without solar with high California electrical bills. My neighbors houses, which are 1,000 sf bigger, run $750 to $1,000 per month.
If I had to do it over again I'd also use ICF exterior walls (I've done a large ICF project now) but would still keep the house simple and use the most insulative doors and windows in reason.
Funny how most people don't understand that to really be Green you need to design you're house to Conserve, heat, energy and materials.
In 18 years my repair bills have been $1,000 for an HVAC Tech to make two trips and replace one of my "pond pumps" that circulates the water.
Thanks for sharing
your in Folsom too? I'd love to see your setup if possible
not-fishing Please make a video! We would love to see your system.
Great install. I'm am hvac tech. I always loved installing Geothermal. I would recommend a outdoor split geothermal system if possible. It keeps the noise outside and they are actually much quite than a all in one package geothermal system. No noise to worry about cause it's just a very low hum..
I didn't realize they made split geo units. Thanks for sharing
@@Challenged1
Since you have a hot season and a cold one, and already got involved with digging and insulation, did you ever considered simply storing the heat.
I mean in the summer heating an insulated portion of the ground with the help of solar vacuum tubes.
And in the winter chill other similar storage. In this way you eliminate the expensive part that is compressor. But insulating the ground may be costly too.
But that 100 saved monthly, and the fact that replacing some fans is way cheaper than replacing compressors.
We have had Geothermal for 30 years, our WaterFurnace is in the basement and is as close to silent as possible. Literally the fan, which is variable speed and itself very quiet, makes more noise than the compressor. Unless you know what to listen for you cannot tell if the compressor is running, low or high speed, no difference. If you are not in the utility room it is effectively silent. You cannot here it in the bedroom, bathroom, or family room that abut the utility room. Also, having the entire thing inside the home means it stays dry and clean and easily maintained. I can't imagine putting half of this outside.
@larrybolhuis1049 water furnace makes a great split Geo unit. You have it in your basement where I have seen people have package unit geo's like in the attic. Those units have the water going into them. When the there is a water issue like a pipe breaking or a leak it will flood your basement out or someone attic to the adjacent floors below. Your house must be built well because walls probably thick and good insulation. Ive been working on geo thermal for a long time and split geos are hands down much quieter.
@larrybolhuis1049 plus they make split geo systems that use only a indoor coil which can be mounted on a natural gas furnace for heat. So you'll have a dual fuel system with heating/ cooling from geo thermal and when it gets too cold the geothermal turns off to use the gas furnace. Which in my neck of the woods is much cheaper than paying the electric company because geo's use back up electric heating strips which is like turning on an electric oven every time they come on....
Glad I stumbled across your videos. I didn't have a lot of good info on geothermal, but now on my upcoming build (on an acreage, using hydronic in-floor heating), I'll definitely be planning a geothermal setup. And conveniently, my new build will be of similar size to yours, so your series has been just perfect for me. Thanks!
Please keep these updates coming. Your videos have inspired my family and my parents to sell our houses and do this ourselves. We have purchased land and just starting the steps to build our dream home. I'm using ICF and geothermal thanks greatly to you sharing your experience. These updates on anything you did allows me to make any adjustments based on things i might hear. I would like to hear more about the hot water tank being heated by geothermal. Keep up these great videos and perfect format.
Here's a link to the desuperheater that I hooked up:
czcams.com/video/WSD-CsKphTY/video.html
@@Challenged1 thanks again! I had seen that in the past but must have forgotten. So your heart pump came with that feature built in. I will be looking for that. Who did all your manual J calculations and system design for the house? I'm needing to get that done at this time and my designer does not know anyone who can design for the ground source heat pump. My build is in SE AZ so AC is the main oporation needed so that free hot water would be abundant for me!
@@tazman6235 Yes, mine came with it built in.
I had a couple of HVAC guys helping me design in the beginning. We actually didn't do a manual J, just figured what a typical house would be and then reduced by 30% to accommodate for the ICF construction.
@@Challenged1 where did you actually order all your geothermal hardware (ahu, condeners, lines, ect.) from? In having a manual j and manual d completed by this guy does not sell any equipment.
@@tazman6235 Key Refrigeration in Wichita, KS.
Wow, thanks for the update! yeah as a carpenter, I keep thinking that we ought to install geothermal coils every time we backfill a basement. Same with septic systems, just bury some loops under the weeping bed and the tank. Also waterfront places don't need loops, just intake pipes going close to the bottom of the water body to get the naturally cool in summer and warmer in winter temps down there. I live in Canada so air source heat pumps need to be backed up because they stop working at -18 C when we need it the most!
I put my Geo thermal in 11 years ago. love it.
about to build a new house on a farm with plenty of land...and we have been discussing your system as an option
My geothermal system in Western Oregon works great and it's over 20 years old. It's also connected to my hot water heater.
I only have it serviced every other year.
I did the same about ten years ago, I put it into an old leaky farmhouse on 11 acres, put about 2000' of loop under the pasture, and it's been great. If it hadn't I would have set iy up to use my well water from my current 450' well and and put the return over into the pond. The whole thing unit as well as installing it myself cost about $6,000. Only problem I've had with it is the condensation drain plugging up after 5-6 years which is common for all types of systems around here.
You can further your efforts to quiet the noise heard in your son's bedroom either by the use of spray foam insulation, or a much more DIY friendlier installation of some rock wool. Rock wool installs just as easy as the pink stuff, it's fire proof, there is no need to worry about fiberglass fibers, and there is the sound deadening aspect of it as well.
Actually don’t do insulation as heat rises and you’ll loose bleed through heating. The BEST fix is found in music bars and it’s acoustic panels. These will absorb and redirect sound but not stop air flow. You don’t need to cover the area entirely (doing so actually lessens the effect) sound isn’t like hot/cold air, but more like a billiard ball. The idea is to bounce the sound waves around keeping them localized.
Doubling up the drywall would work much better if a 2-4” gap from the floor and angled slightly. A simple test is use a generator outside. Make a make shift box out of sheet stock then use a decibel meter at various locations above where open then to sides. Then angle the sheet stock with different gaps and test again. Then remove 1 side total open and another side use an open pallet. You’d be surprised at the results of the 3 tests. Then to make things very interesting take the unused 4th sheet stock and seal up 1 side of the open pallet and take a reading
Thank you for the update I watch the very first one. Plan on putting one in my little farm in Tennessee. I'm going to go for a very large field I have a greenhouse I want to cool and heat and a few other projects on the property that I want to use it for two.
Helpful tips on installing this type of system. Thank you
Good to hear. Thanks for sharing.
I appreciate this. Thank you!
Regarding your farmhouse example, I still think a ground loop heat pump is the way to go. With "no" insulation, any system you install is gonna run continuously, so it may as well be as efficient as possible, and nothing that I'm aware of can beat ground loop. More efficient still would be a coat of spray foam in the cavities of the exterior walls though. That can be done after the tax credit though. 🤓👍
You'd want to insulate first to see what your need will be otherwise you're just guessing. And a well style may beat out ground loops because the groundwater moves taking that cold with it.
'With "no" insulation, any system you install is gonna run continuously'
How do you work that out. If the desired temperature is reached and nothing more is needed, how is it going to run continuously?
@@NotoriousPyro Unless the desired interior temperature matches the exterior temperature, the interior temperature will drift towards the exterior temperature. Insulation slows the drift, and the greater the drift, the more work required of the heat pump. The first step in making the inside nice is keeping the outside out. 🤓
Although I am reading this one year after it was put on CZcams, there is a comment that I'd like to make regarding propane. He said that the price was volatile during certain times of the year and he is absolutely correct. If you have a propane tank that belongs to the propane supplier, you are paying the highest price for propane particularly in the winter months, astronomically high per gallon. I got an education on propane purchasing when I was a Director at a 501 C nonprofit organization. Subsequently at the same time I was moving to a home that had electric heat and I wanted to change it to propane. Here is what is necessary to get the lowest price and it is unbelievably cost saving. You must own your own propane tanks. I recommend you buy two 1000 gallon either below ground or above ground propane tanks that you own. Each tank will hold 85% of 1000 gallons. in my situation one 850 gallons would handle one winter season. I didn't need to buy any additional propane during the winter. The only time that I bought propane was in mid June or early July when the price was lowest. Because you own your own tanks you contact all of the suppliers in your area and give them the information that you own your own tanks and you're interested in filling one or more within the next week or two. You will be stunned at how low the price is comparatively. If you can't handle buying one or two propane tanks, I recommend you don't attempt to heat your home with propane. A good thing to remember is that electric heat is 100% efficient. If you insulate properly and I mean properly that is also a very good option.
Great update!
Thanks
We have a 1700sq ft home built in 1987 and had a geothermal system installed in September 2021. From Nov 21 to May 22 it cost an average of $175.57 per month. The system is closed loop with two wells each 288 ft deep and a 5 ton Geo Unit. We live in the Hudson Valley where temps can range from -5F to 95F depending on the season. In Jan and Feb we used about 100 gallons of heating oil each month with our old system. That would translate to about $350 - $500 depending on the price of oil in addition to the electric the furnace used. Our electric is about .23.5 per kwh. Love the Geothermal!
Technology has come a long way for sure! We have a little bit bigger home and recently upgraded to a newer more efficient heat pump, albeit not as efficient as a geo thermal, its not bad. Northern Ohio weather and we pay $200ish but we also heat and cool an external garage. We are all electric including the backup heat, they run electric heat strips but only come on when the outside temps are below 12 degrees. Probably what saves us is we have fairly cheap electric in our area.
How much to install ?
@@sranney1 The system quote was $40,375.00 for a 5 ton system with two 288 ft deep wells for the loops. Credits were $1750.00 for using our own money, $9820.00 paid directly to Dandelion by Central Hudson (electric provider), and a $7489.00 Fed Tax Credit. We had to write a check for $28,805.00 and after the Fed Tax Credit the system cost came to $21,315.70. All amounts are in US Dollars.
The system cost $895.00 to heat our house in Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb in the Hudson Valley NY. The oil furnace cost was $1700.00 for the same time period. So break even point depending on the price of heating oil would be about 12.54 years. The geothermal furnace will last about 25 years maybe more with proper maintenance. The loops will last about 100 years.
We bought our oil furnace new in 2009 and in 2021 it started leaking oil. There were no replacement parts available to repair it . It was a Thermo Pride oil furnace that worked for 12 years with no problems. The oil storage tank was 34 years old so it to was due to be replaced. The combined quote for jury-rigging the oil furnace and replacing the oil tank was $5000.00. So we went with geothermal instead. Hope this answers your question!
@@chrismaxny4066 this is an wonderfully detailed answer, thanks :)
@@chrismaxny4066: what do you mean when you say "wells"? Trenches?
Excellent video !!
Holy doody your house is amazing.
Rockwool safe and sound would way better for sound deadening between floor joists.
Next Step: Geothermal Water Well
Using burried plastic sewer pipes and an air pump your DIY can percipitate your own drinking water to the tune of 15gph. Forget about CA water consumption restrictions. Plus the excess airflow not only provides dringing water but can be used to cool and heat your home!
I think your building envelope should be your primary investment as far as efficiency because that’s going to give you the best ROI then geothermal system is a great option , as you mentioned farm house we recently inherited my wife’s family’s farmhouse that is a great candidate for geo but as you stated , we are in process of completing all the upgrades to bring it up to the year 2022 and the last time it had any attention was 1972 ? Yea , luckily I’m retired ( I think ) and having equipment to do the work . Did I mention there’s a lot of old structures, barns , shop and they all predate the house as far as the last time they received maintenance. If it wasn’t for are grandkids it would not have been my first choice going into retirement and they have helped with all the work thus far including zip lines , go kart track , lots of tractors to repair . If it gets them out here to visit that’s my goal ! And get heat & cooling by summer 2023 ? Lol 😂
Absolutely
Thank you sir!
Brilliant video
Thanks for taking the time to post and especially a 4 year review !!
How many months is Typically winter out with you ?
What is typically the Temperature in Winter ?
For a 3000 foot house what size Land is required for the Pipe Grid ?
Our typical winter is probably 3 months (Dec-Feb) with the adjacent months being pretty cool. Winter temps on average are between 20 or 40 degrees F. However, we can definitely see extremes.
You could do this system for that size house on a 1/2 acre.
@ 4:55 Try a soft starter on the compressor unit. YT has videos on it.
Excellent!
I have a ground source unit and love it. First unit ran for about 30 years no problems at all. Replaced it with a more efficient unit.
Thanks for sharing!!!
We too have a ground source system since 2006. In a 100 year old farm house. Very few problems. Need filters and a few parts now and then. Very comfortable in Illinois. The only down size is the humidity in the summer. This system does not remove moisture from the air. We have to run a dehumidifier in the summer. Still very cheap comfort.
What type of G.O.
Would like to see a video showing how the geothermal system works. How deep must you go to reach heat underground to warm the home in the winter?
Prior to escaping So-Cal 15 years ago, I was paying $950/Mo to air condition a 4,000 SF well-built 2-story house.
I think it was about .15KW at the time. (It is .225 now😳)
I researched ground-source heat pumps but the mean ground temp in North Idaho was just 44F. Heat is much more
important than AC, so it didn’t quite pencil out, even with me digging the trenches. A pro advised that he’d installed
4 systems in the area and none were really paying off, so I went with 16 seer air-source heat pumps.
This was over 10:years ago, but do your research.
You should try Europe, today I payed 0.95 USD before tax and fees pr. kWh.
Around 1.10 ~ 1.20 after fees and taxes.
Yup, that isn't a typo 😵💫
Glad to hear your family escaped. Many other families aren't as lucky.
Hey bud. Dont u think Idaho has pretty cold AIR temps too? Maybe winter temps 15-35° at times. U run the ground loop deeper for more heat, & also run a good roof area solar heat loop to split into house heat AND hot water pre-heat for cheap! U gave up too easy!
Soundproofing would help greatly.
thanks!
been a while! congrats on your geothermal glad it worked out for you. I haven't done anything with that on my end yet because I have to go through bunch of permits and right now I'm preparing to install 25 KW solar array. after that maybe a simplified heat pump system with geothermal
Good deal!!!
@@Challenged1 by installing a big system I'll probably get quite a few dollars for the SRECs 😎👍
So - my take from your feedback is that success starts with a house that is highly insulated and positioned to maximise Solar PV take and equipped with radiators (or underfloor heating) sized for the lower flow temperatures you will obtain from the heat pump. Some form of electricity storage would probably help too. That sounds like a new-build house unfortunately.
or you can do it in stages
For sound reduction this from Home Depot works wonders: 1/2 in. x 48 ft. x 8 ft. R-1.2 Sound Board Sound Barrier EPS Rigid Foam Board Insulation
Great informative video. Better too many loops till it's time for a bigger pump.😊
Thank you for this vids.
So you use two systens - geotermic and solar.
Without them, how much did you would be paying for energy? Just the geotermic can provide for the entirelly house?
Hey, just wanted to say that if you want to get rid of that hum in your son's room, hang some rock wool insulation. Rock wool is really really good at keeping noise down. I put it all around our laundry room, and you can never tell when someone is doing laundry.
Good product, just crazy expensive
I would recommend putting up some sound deadening foam and runner used in the music industry in sound rooms on the ceiling above the unit. Maybe in place if the sheetrock you screwed on.
Believe it or not, the sheetrock is a better noise reducer than the foam, and much cheaper
@@Challenged1 hmmm I would not have thought that.
Did you do a blower door test? What was your ACH? Aerobarrier could cut your ACH in half, and the blower door testing is continous during that process. Thank you so much for all the info on geothermal systems, I'm definitely gonna do this myself! Keep up the great work!!
I did not do a blower door test when I built.
Since this is an ICF house (mine is also), the leakage is only going to be around windows and similar penetrations. Aerobarrier is probably not suitable for an ICF construction. A blower door rating would be interesting, but at this point, not of much use, I'm guessing he paid a lot of attention to detail when building the house, it shows in the quality of everything.
@@TagiukGold Thanks for bringing that up, I'll have to look into that more!
Glad this worked out so well for him. Generally speaking, I don't recommend DIY geothermal because DIY has given geo a bad reputation in the past. A properly designed and installed system will give you insanely good efficiency and a worry-free system for decades. I understand the allure of DIY because the install cost is high. One growing trend that will bring down the cost of geothermal is utilities beginning to install geothermal over an entire neighborhood. Electric utilities love it because it reduces peak demand in the summer and provides electric demand in the winter. Just beware if you are a DIYer, there are many opportunities to screw it up.
awww just finished my garden, put so much effort in it. i could never dig it all open again :s
Rockwool is used in pro sound dampening panels, so maybe try that and see how it does?
when you were talking about the hypothetical farmhouse, what did you mean by the ground could become saturated? thanks for both your videos on this system and congratulations- you did a lot of work!
The ground only has so much heat to give within a certain period of time. If the system runs too often, it could drop the ground temp faster than the ground temperatures can recover. The ground has a heat transfer rate, and it is possible to exceed it when withdrawing heat.
I wanted to install geothermal in my new house but couldn't because we only have less than 30" of topsoil above 10,000' of bedrock. And drilling one or more wells would be very expensive especially since we have very cheap power at less than .05/kwh. So I have 2 heat pumps, which I recently had to replace both compressors after 22 years of service. My electrical cost runs from $150 in the summer to over $500 in the winter, in a very large over 5,000 sqft house. We're in Central Wash State where the temp runs from zero in winter to over 100 in the summer.
Thank you for sharing!!!
You need to get you some high power explosives and access that sweet spot in the bedrock. Go straight down with a spiral coil
For anyone reading this you can drill a vertical well into the rock. I had a 3 ton unit connected to a 500 foot well. The well cost 9k and included the loop and grout and pressure test
@@paulbruneau7379 That's a good price. $18/ft. Around here it was $25/ft 10 years ago, and it keeps getting more expensive. And that is just for the drilling, not the loop and grout. Our rock is basalt, which is harder than granite, which might be part of the reason for the cost.
@@robertfakler8564 maybe so. Mine was in CT which I believe was granite
Covering the inside of that mechanical room with something like Rockwool safe 'n sound will effectively kill that noise.
I had a 3 ton WaterFurnace closed horizontal ground loop installed at my former waterfront home in Northern Ontario. Adequate ground loops are imperative. The house has to be well insulated. The noise can be irritating. And you have to live in an area where electrical pricing isn’t subject to idiotic price changes.
Nice !!
Just did an amvic pour, very neat system 10m rebar
I have been in the HVAC business my whole life and have installed all types of systems. I am a fan of geothermal but unless you can install yourself it’s not cost effective. A better insulated home with mini splits are the way to go in my opinion. The COP on a Geothermal might be 5.5 and the most efficient mini’ are around 4.5. That makes geothermal the winner if the costs were the same but unless your like me or the CZcamsr who made this video the best and first thing to do is build an efficient home. To be fair I did install geothermal on a home I built and did it all myself so it was the best way to go, but when I have to sell to a customer it’s still a great system just not cost effective.
Thank you for leaving the comment
What size heat pumps did you put in per floor? I'm curious as to what your load calculation came out to on a 3000 sqft per floor ICF home. What brand did you go with and what was the seer rating at the time.
Hi Garret based on watching your videos and taking your advice I have installed a closed loop geothermal sytem that does heating /cooling and domestic hot water and has a built in ERV. My cottage is a A frame structure and about 900 square ft. My Trench length is 95 feet and I have about 520 feet of 3/4" HDPE pipe. The cottage is located 46 degree latitude 78 Degree longitude. Place is called Lake Kipiwa Quebec Canada. The pipes went in the ground November 2022. at a depth of 6' . The system started operating in mid December 2022. Measuring the temperature of the copper pipe that carries the water/gycol mix from the ground in mid January it was 6C. In February the in was 10C, in March 14C. Now that i've been running the air conditioning the ground temperature coming in is 20C and this has been so since mid June. I attribute the early low temperature because in December 2022 when the water/gycol was inserted in the HDPE pipe it had been sitting in the unheated cottage therefore the water/gycol temperature was about 2-3C when it was fed into the HDPE pipes. Currently in mid August the incomimg temperature is 20C and the temperature going back into the ground is 32C; this is favourable as we will be getting into winter and nightime temperatures will dip to -30C . I also believe that the high ground temperature currently is partly due to very wet ground I encountered when digging the trenches. Yoiur thoughts ?
The temperature of the liquid in heating mode is different than it is in cooling mode. It's more a function of the refrigerant temperature than the ground temperature. You'll notice, once you switch back to heating mode, the temps of the liquid will be in line with what you were seeing the previous winter.
@@Challenged1 Hi Garret thanks for your reply. The probe is placed on the copper pipe that is outside the unit, it carries the gycol/water into the unit. To further explain: the HDPE pipe from the ground connects to copper piping before it enters the unit this is where the temperature reading is taken. Does the refrigerant play a part in the temperature before it enters the unit? If so how do I get an idea of what the actual temperature of the glycol/water mix is in the ground? That aside so far the heat pump is doing it's job in winter and summer.
@@davidrosolen3282 It sounds like your probe is giving you an accurate reading of the mixture. It sounds like you are curious as to the temperature of the ground in the winter and summer. To test this, leave the heat pump off for several hours and then cycle on just the circulating pump (not the heat pump) and take a reading with the probe. This should tell you the actual ground temp.
This has to be super fella. I am looking into doing the same thing. A home with 2400 square feet not really very well insulated, how much of a loop do I need ?? Thanks
They make a quilted sound barrier that you can put up around it with speed rail … just a suggestion I work on geothermal systems in mansions in the Hamptons of Long Island New York and that is what we do especially when we have 7 or 8 geothermal condensers all stacked together as you can imagine that vibration noise magnified by 8 but the sound Barrier deadens that to a small hum
Thanks. Do you know who makes the blanket?
@@Challenged1 yes SOUND SEAL IS one of the brands it is easily found online like at grainger or supply house and you can find individual panels as well you basically surround it with panels and then one on top and it deadens the vibration sound from the compressor and circulators very well good luck
Thoughts on type of ground source heat pumps for radiant floor heating or forced air? Also what about heating potable water? I have read that the potable water does not get as hot? Thank you for your videos
My units are Bosch.
I haven't had an issue with the desuperheater not producing hot enough water. The water heater set point isn't far off of normal regardless though.
@@Challenged1 Bosch is a top notch brand definitely planning on going with it when we build.
Suggest rock wool insulation to mute bleed through noise.
Awesome 😻😻😻🥳🥳🥳
What did you do to size the system? I have a new barn and I am already digging a 350+ foot trench to build a new spring development. I was going to drop that water line at 6'. I could just go an additional 2' and i'd have a trench for the same type of setup. How did you calculate the amount of pipe to fan it out? Also, did you look into how tree root systems effect the pipe? This will be going under an orchard, but I could hae the trees avoid the strip.
Lots and lots of research as well as talking with any hvac person that had any knowledge of this type of system. The supplier was also a great resource. I would avoid putting it under trees if possible. While the roots won't penetrate the pipe, they could rub up against them.
04:35: warning equipmwnt fed by two sources.......very nice touch, may save sumones life someday. Proactive thinking.
Glueing some of that foam egg crate stuff to the ceiling would probably be a lot more effective than another piece of flat drywall. Like an anechoic chamber.
Actually, drywall is one of the best acoustical blockers. The typical egg crate stuff does very little.
I had a 3-ton, 3 vertical well geo system retrofitted to existing ductwork this past November 2021. I also have a 10.5 kW solar array. So, far I love both, and this year I anticipate being net zero.
My geothermal system is from Carrier/Bryant, and the total cost was $19,300 (less a 26% tax credit). A friend of mine paid nearly $12K for a new HVAC system, so to my mind, having this system installed was a 'no-brainer' once the cost and efficiency were considered.
I pretty much agree with all of Garrett's comments. While there is a low-end hum from the compressor, the variable speed fan is much quieter than my old air handler, so from a noise perspective, I think the geo unit is quieter overall.
Did the $19,300 include the three geothermal wells?
@@robertvandermolen230 It included everything: cart off of old HVAC, boring of wells, new equipment, installation, and electrician.
I made mine very simple, could only go between 5 to 6 feet in clay and granite rock. did have air in the line, ended up using a 5 gallon bucket tossed in a small sub pump no pressure and no air in the line. Do not buy cheap units learned that lesson, use a Waterfurnace. Older homes it can run more often. use mine spring /summer /fall , dead of winter still need my boiler. -30c Big tip.. Geo kicks off 90% of the time the air filter is dirty.
it would be nice to know what your utility bill cost would be with out the solar array. That it works so well is great news.
My geothermal system passes air through 4 inch landscaping drainage corrugated pipe and pushes air to my AC condenser coil. Not a heat pump but at least I save money in the summer. This is the second summer of use. My electric cost went down about $500 per season. It cost me $1500 to install and next year I will have recovered 100% of my investment. If and when my AC system breaks down, I will replace it with a heat pump to use year round and the cost should go down even more. My total summer electric bill from May to Sept, went down from $900 to $400. So even a poor mans geothermal can work for you. I am designing a cheap liquid heat exchanger to test out on a swimming pool as a heat sink.
Man I wanna do something like this
Run rockwool in the cavity, 2 layers of 5/8" on rc channel and then sound foam over the too. No sound will get through that
Costs a ton
Do you harvest water at all?
I am building a cottage in Quebec Canada. It's an A frame building and about 950 square feet. Very well insulated with triple glazed windows. I am off grid and have a 7 kW solar system with batteries and a back up propane generator. I have a all in one ERV/split Heat pump. I am on a lake and originally was going to put my pipes in lake water however the distance to the lake and the distance to get to a 10 foot depth was too much. We have a well so then I thought I'll go open loop however my HVAC contractor convinced me to go to closed loop ground. Even though I'm on almost 2 acres I only have a small area next to the cottage that is cleared. I can only fit 2 trenches 30' long. My soil is surrounded by bedrock and is very wet ( digging for the foundation we hit standing water). My thought is: given the size and efficiency of the building as well as having a super efficient ERV/Heat pump and my wet soil. I think that 50-60 of trench and installing coil pumping should suffice for cold Canadian temperatures. Your thoughts?
Unfortunately, those trenches will be too short
@@Challenged1 Thanks! I can achieve more trenching if I install my loop piping in the same trench as my water line that originates at my well. Will the single water line interfere with the performance provided I keep it 2 ft away ?
@@davidrosolen3282 No
I build a super insulated house 1200 sg and I use a open radiant floor system, I use 2. 50 gal electric Geo
Geo HWHP in my Landry room , I heat my home and hot potable water . My electric bill is about $125 . Month for every thing. I also run 4 freeze and my shop and small heat lamps to keep water from freezing for my chickens.. I spent around $1700. For the 2 tanks 9 years with 10 year warranty one had trouble and they give a $800 back and sent me the part, which I got it running again lol .
Could you share where you got your "Geothemal kit" from? Or the type of Bosch Units you used? Did some searching on the old inter webs and it get really confusing real fast with all kind of companies wanting to be your one stop installer. I like the DIY aspect of your setup
I got all of my components from a local supplier in Wichita, KS. I had a friend with me who has a refrigeration license.
The sound inside depends very much on the choise of compressor. Different conpressors have differnt soundlevels. Avoid piston-compressors if you have to place them on a place that is sound sensitive
This compressor is a Copeland Scroll compressor.
Also, I am wondering if you have ever measured amp draw on the system while functioning. I have a 3 ton unit that runs currently about 2500w and I am looking for something that works in a much more efficient fashion. I can never seem to get an answer on running wattage of these and would love to know. I have to use a 5 or 6 ton unit when I install as I want it to cover both floors of my home and I really do not want to use anything else other than this so that I can account for that load. Thanks!
I have not and don't have the equipment to do it.
@@Challenged1 I run everything off solar so accounting for loads is imperative. Knowing how much something draws allows for proper battery storage calculations, etc. I appreciate your response.
@@nubiandavis2610 Makes perfect sense. I'm grid tie
Couldn't you ask the manufacturer? Also how large is your solar system to accommodate heat pumps and such?
@@jksatte the manufacturer will give you plate information, but that is by no means real world accurate. Accuracy depends on setup, load calculations, weather and a myriad of other factors. My system is 13kw with 90 kwh lifepo4 48v battery bank.
you could sound insolate that area to stop the sound hum
Ground source heat pump is a good name and should be used, to not confuse it with geothermal energy from deep drilling. Geothermal energy provides much higher temperatures.
There are three types of geothermal systems as defined by the government. This is one, and what you described is one.
@@Challenged1 We here in Iceland make a difference between ground source heat pump and geothermal. If we talk about geothermal energy, we talk about system that use higher temperatures. Usually you have to drill for it.
@@mjoelnir1899 I agree that real geothermal is a grid-scale resource, certainly too much of a capital expense for an individual to heat one home.
"Ground-source heat pump" is an accurate term, but time is money, and marketers want a quicker way to say it.
Hey Gzarret thanks for the grezat report. I don't know if you can anwer this. Our utilityis offering a huge rebate to replace very old furnace with a thermal storage for thermal heating.. They heat the deramic bricks during offpeak houurs ant release the accumulated energy from the bricks when they are needed. It's tempting. What do you think?
I always try to think of these things as a math problem. If you do the math and come out ahead, it's worth doing.
Good video, what temperature does your system keep your house when it's 110 degree's outside? Can you keep your house at 74, is that possible? Thanks!
The ground temp remains unchanged by the air temp at the 10' depth of my loops, so I can keep the temp at whatever I want. 74 is no problem.
I have 6.25 tons of air source heat pumps and my electric bill is zero. Oh yeah, I’m powering everything with solar and lithium iron phosphate batteries. Now that’s freaking incredible.
question. I am wanting to cool and heat a green house. 200 sq ft. to place the pipe in a pit is it better to use 90 deg turns or not? was planning on 200 ft of pipe approx 7 feet down. would this be enough to make an affect on temps? . no return to earth just straight in.
Use as few mechanical bends as possible to reduce leaks.
I have no idea if it will make much of a difference or not. It sounds like this would be a passive system that doesn't use a heat pump.
What is your electricity usage annually? And how much solar production is generated by your system?
I'll have an upcoming video with all of that information
Do you have a good air to water you would recommend. Ground source is not an option for me
No specific brand, but I would spend extra money on one with a 2-speed or variable speed compressor.
Watchout.!!! Air to water system works only if the air temp is above 7C (45F).
Here in The Netherlands this system is used from Mar/Apr to Oct/Nov and complemented with a NaturalGas heater for the winter months to reduce the NG bill.
Will a teothermal cooling system work in an areas where there will be need of cooling all year round and the temperature in the middle of the day is appr. 32 degrees C all year round?
Yes. As long as the earth temperature is cooler than the air temperature, it will be a more efficient way to cool using a heat pump.
Did you try foam to absorb some of the sound? I would think a couple inches of foam on the ceiling above the unit would mitigate nearly all the noise bleeding through to the room above
Believe it or not, foam has almost no sound absorbing properties.
Good, informative video! That's a lot of space to heat and cool! Nice!
People were telling us we should install a system like this, but in our area, and with the passive solar design of our house we should be able to stay comfortable with the occasional use of a wood burning stove in the winter, and an evaporative cooler in the summer. We are all solar, but putting in some propane for our stove, and we'll have the option for the dryer as well. 😊🏜️
Good deal. Low or no bills are an amazing feeling!!!
Do you have much humidity in your area?
It's very dry until the monsoon rains hit in July. Our evaporative cooler won't be as effective then, but the rain also cools everything down a lot.
With regard to cooling (in our climate we never need heating) I'm about to build a new small retirement house on a couple of acres. I intend to make a large swimming pond/lake. I'm thinking of laying piping in the bottom of the lake, pumped through a heat pump to cool the house, Much less work to install but would it be as efficient as in ground?
It all depends on the depth of the pond (minimum of 10' and at least an acre). If it was me and I mainly only needed cooling, I would go with a mini-split heat pump. They are almost as efficient in cooling mode, and much cheaper.
@@Challenged1 Many thanks, I will look into them. Any make or models you recommend?
@@robertcarless7445 I admit, I am no expert when it comes to the different brands of mini-splits.
It is worth it! ONLY if you do it yourself and don't pay others to do it!
I wish I had a geothermal setup to deposit and withdraw heat through cement the basement floor of my townhouse condo (so probably no digging allowed). I also wish I had a loop with probably CO2 as the working fluid to transfer heat from the wastewater pipe to preheat water going to a heat pump water heater, and since I'm dreaming, that heat pump got most of its heat from the exiting water after the first loop (or maybe just a heat pump loop).
Awesome video!! One question- how do you cool the house? Do you run the compressor, to a air heat exchanger or??
The compressor is run for heat and cool. It just depends if the reversing valve is energized whether it is one or the other.
My septic system is in the way so I am going with solar that banks KWH for winter heat. I also don't have gas so solar may end up cheaper compared to bringing in gas and getting gas furnace and paying for dino fuel forever.
Uh.. a battery bank is *not* the solution for storing energy to use for heating as you need lots of MWH to cover that.
I'm using about 210 MWH for heating in a year and 70% of that is in just 3 months (Dec to Feb) with no sun.
What temperature do you usually keep your thermostats?
74 in the summer and 68 in the winter
Hi, Im building a house in south of Mexico and it is very hot down here, the house design is very ventilated so the house isn't sealed at all, do you think it's worth doing this system for my case?
No
With all the major steps towards super insulated houses I don’t see a future for harvesting and distribution of heat with fluids. The btu demands of houses will go down so much that ROI of heat pump vs electrical heater will have the electrical heater as the winner. Yes people will scream: “but the heat pump is 5x more efficient” very very true, but money wise… count the totals for 20 yrs. Installation cost, maintenance cost, replacement cost and usage cost. TLDR; spend 95% of your budget on insulation, and the remaing 5% on the heat supply. The more you spend on insulation the less expensive the heat supply gets, even to the point where small electrical wall mounted heaters will be enough.
I'm in Australia and I have a gas hydronic in floor system for heating. Is it possible to Cool my home with a hydronic system? So I could get away with not putting ducts in my roof and have a water to water system. If it's possible I will definitely be interested in getting this geo system. I don't have solar yet so could you please give me an idea on the power consumption of the unit.
Im an Ozzie also. The best approach is to fill every available roof area with solar pv, and fit efficient rc ac.
This way the roof area can be used 365 days a year, to rovide power for heating, cooling, power yohr house and sell back to the grid. I do and receive a $3k cheque every year from my electricity supplier, and have no power bills and some of the solar feed in credits also pays for my tiny gas bill.. The large roof top solar pv also shades the roof and keeps it cool in summer.
Cooling the floor isnt a great idea. Cool aid is denser, thus heavier, and sinks to floor level. You want cool air where you live (ie, not on the floor) and cool air should ideally exit your ac above you. It will then sink down past you to the floor level.
You will save tonnes of money by turning your gas heating off, and running a small split ac in the room you spend the most time in. I run a 400w radiator m my office and am as warm as toast in winter. Cheap as
@@nordic5490 g'day mate. I hear what you are saying. My plan is to get 16kw of solar on the roof but my electricity bills are very little to begin with ($100 month)
I love my in floor hydronic heating and wouldn't change that one bit. The reason I would consider the in floor cooling is so that I don't need to install ducts in the house cutting the install price a bit. I'm in Victoria so summer gets to about 41-42 degrees but the house wouldn't get above 30 so I'm not as concerned about the cooling and if the in slab reducs the house by 5 degrees I'll be happy. The advantage of in floor hydronic heating with no fan, noise, dust, dry heat is such a winner for me.
@@robertpoynton9923 Floor hydronic heating is a problem in humid environments - condensation. Air ducted cooling also works as a dehumidifier (the moist warm air condenses water that is sent out the drain line).
Do you run the backup system every so often? Or does it just sitting there not effect it negatively over time?
It has never come on. No negative effect when not in use.
Problem with all this energy efficient stuff is it's initial cost .they say it can save money in the long run or adds resale value . Then they give you the line you don't buy it to save money you buy it to to save the planet.
How to decide the length and diameter of the ground loops
You need to know the properties of your soils to make those decisions.
What would you recommend for a 1200sqft casa in Baja, mainly cooling?
If it's just cooling, I wouldn't use geothermal. A mini-split system would be the most efficient and cost effective way to go.
@@Challenged1 thanks