Canon tried to make a PC. What went wrong? Teardown and restoration of rare Canon
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- čas přidán 2. 12. 2022
- Canon A-200EX II HD20 Teardown and Restoration #doscember #doscember2022
Where did the magic smoke come from? Why isn't there any info about this PC on Google? How rare is this Canon?
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1) 1987-88.
2) No RIFA.
3) No battery leakage.
4) No blown tantalums.
5) Posts correctly.
6) All memory chips seem to work.
7) Floppy works.
That machine is a miracle so far.
haha, It's a miracle if we can also get that rare Miniscribe MFM working : )
That motherboard layout is a work of art.
Back when computers were expensive but at least they gave you a whole lot of chips for your money.
haha, yeah. tons of MT RAM chips lol
@@Epictronics1 oh my...
The tantalum capacitor was invented by a producer of tiny bombs who had too many in stock and decided to resell them based on their stray capacitance.
That would explain many sparks and lots of smoke coming out of my lab lol
This machine was actually Canon’s second attempt at breaking into the desktop market. There was a machine called the AS-100 that preceded this one. The AS-100 ran DOS or CP/M, but it was not IBM compatible. One of my first IT jobs was to take a system written in Canon BASIC on one of these and move it to MS BASIC running on an IBM PC. It was a lot of transcribing and debugging.
Those AS-100 machines look like fun :) Let's hope one of them comes my way
MT stands for Micron Technology. aka Micron RAM.
Canon made computers up until the late 90's. My family's first computer was a canon "Innova media" with a Pentium 166 and 16mb of ram we purchased in 1996. Also speaking of predominantly printer and camera companies dipping their toes into the computer market, Epson also tired their hands with PCs. I happen to own a 286 "equity III" from 1986.
nice. must be pretty rare? I couldn't find an image on google of the 286 equity III
i love teardowns of strange computers
It's not uncommon for printer brands to rebadge machines for use as printer servers or controllers. I'm not sure if this would have been done in the late 80s, but I have a couple of Xerox branded PCs from early-mid 2000s that are controllers for very large commercial printers. If I were a betting man, I'd say that's what this is - not a commercially available product, but one you'd get with a very large printer.
That would explain why it seems so bloody rare
I’ve seen canon branded computers that weren’t for sale as print servers. I think they called them innovate. They also made a laptop called notejet.
@@jessihawkins9116 Interesting. I have never heard of a canon computer before today. At least we know it's a "thing" now. Cheers.
Tons of companies actually imported Samsung PC's in various forms of customized forms. The Samsung Turbo XT was sold by Gateway 2000 and other brands.
Well if HP could make Computers they were founded to make testing equipment. This channel already took apart a later version of the HP network Anyliser laptop with Alegent branding the spin off company that absorbed the original HP business.
black legs on the diode = legs have silver in them (or a silver coating) which has oxidized. similar story to silver jewelry turning black if left sitting for ages
Ah, cool. I didn't know. I wonder why this particular diod decided to oxidize. I tested it and it seems working normally
@Mr Guru Ok, cool, I didn't know that. I'm waiting for a new ESR meter before I move on with this project. I want to see if we can find a bad component on the HDD PCB
Thank you for the outstanding content! I chuckled at the MT Ram as soon as I saw them. I can’t wait to see what you find in the MFM drive.
Thanks : )
I believe this Canon PC's original keyboard was outfitted with the highly desirable blue Alps switches. It's likely the keyboard was poached for the switches.
Oh, no. I saw one of those keyboards a few years ago online but my bid was not high enough :/ I remember that I was surprised by how high the other bids were. Now I know why...
At least the mini-scribe was not a brick. My guess it Canon purchased that from somebody else and stuck a name on it. I was going for say Epson equity II but that was not a match. Sort of like Kaypro PC and heathkit PC. Before the AT clone standard. Well something like that. Some name brands decided to choose a PC case / main board that was not AT compatible or both. Before the internet. It was always hard to connect the dot on who was the true mfg. I remember one day getting a fax of CD-Rom pin outs and what took what. So if you got say a Sound blaster card. You didn't have to purchase the rebranded Sony or Panasonic drive. Just plug it in. Saving $$$$. I wish your luck on finding the cross mfg.
Thanks :)
Tantalums can die in silence. Actually my first dead tantalum in many years of hardware tinkering was shortly a Terratec wavetable plugged to the Waveblaster header of a Soudn Blaster. One tantalum shorted and luckily the PSU had short circuit protection and did not start. No magic smoke, no burn signs.
The hard drive should be spinning. So this is likely the elephant in the room. But a very nice computer.
286+EGA is okay, my first computer was a Sanyo 286 with EGA in the late 80s/early 90s, but this was also only a built-to-spec IBM AT clone and the 5170 had AT, too. But for later 286, where other PCs already had VGA, EGA is rather on the low-budget-side and was likely no longer that desirable.
Yeah, it's a weird combo this. Much faster CPU than IBM but has older graphics. Maybe it's a special-purpose computer? I will do some basic troubleshooting on the HDD in the next project vid and test those caps
It could just be an office computer. Computer Chronicles episodes from 88 show just tons of Mac Plus and MDA still in use. EGA wouldn’t be bad at all, since it had MDA resolution text and 16 color graphics. For all the text-based software at the time, that would be more than enough.
@@nickwallette6201 Yeah, that's probably what it is. I just find it a strange combo. Faster CPU than the IBM but lesser graphics
Thanks for sharing 👍
Glad you liked it. I'm working on a follow-up video
There was a Canon Cat also
I had a look at wiki. It looks fantastic : )
Missed the premiere of this one. But YT took me here straight after my premiere, so guess I better watch it now 😀
Yeah, YT is hit-and-miss lol. I got a notification about your video 3min after it had started
@@Epictronics1 Never mind. I enjoyed your video none the less. 👍
@@TheRetroChannel Same here. Really looking forward to updates on the Kawari project.
I was handed a Canon AS-100 MS-DOS compatible (not PC compatible) machine to repair years ago. The guy who owned it still used it for spreadsheets and accounting. Unfortunately, a PAL had failed in it that drove the CPU so the machine was unrepairable. I suspect this AT compatible Canon is a continuation of their MS-DOS compatible line.
That's a bummer, the AS-100 looks really cool
The "good" thing about tantalum caps is, that they go with a pretty light show... some of them quite spectacular. And they leave behind easy to find stains, or holes if they didn't burn through the PCB.
In this case, one might have gone incognito...
@@Epictronics1 : Have you checked the case for stains? Smoke should leave traces on the inside.
@@bikkiikun Unfortunately I was quick to clean it. Not realizing I would have this problem
@@Epictronics1 : And you probably did check the PCBs for leads without a component attached to them.
@@bikkiikun I have done an inspection of the board. And I will make a new inspection this week to find what I have missed :)
Did you know that Criterion Software, the developers of RenderWare and the Burnout series were originally a Canon subsidiary?
I did not, cool
Oh hey, my first PC was a PS/2 model 50 as well! We had several family computers before then, but the model 50 was the first that was mine alone. It was a hand-me-down from a relative or family friend (I don't remember who), and came with a 12" VGA monitor and model M keyboard. I remember playing a lot of DOS games, and trying out a lot of software downloaded from BBSes. I even downloaded a BBS software package and set up my own BBS, but it was just for fun, so I could play the BBS games without spending hours tying up the home phone line.
Sadly that computer is long gone, but I've since picked up all identical parts to recreate that system. I've got three model 50s, 1.5 of which are working. There's only one working power supply between the three machines, and one motherboard needs a recap thanks to those tantalum caps. The ESDI hard drives have always been problematic, but one of the machines came with a SCSI card, so I just bought a BlueSCSI that I'm hoping to use with it instead. I've got both a 12" 8513 monitor as well as a 14" 8514, but that requires repair. And of course, an original model M keyboard.
I paid way too much for the model M, because I bought a really cheap one that was listed as untested, which turned out to be code for not working. Then I bought a second cheap-ish one that was just missing some key caps that I stole from the broken one. Thankfully the broken one came with the detachable cable, since the working one was missing the cable. It's slightly annoying though, because it's the super long one (like 3m unstretched) with an AT connector rather than PS/2, so I have to use an adapter. Unfortunately those cables are quite expensive, so finding a replacement is a challenge.
Anyway, I'm not surprised that MT RAM worked. It was more of a problem in the early '80s, since they were cutting corners to try and compete with the cheap and reliable Japanese imports. Those chips were dated late '87/early '88, which is well after the start of the "DRAM war" of 1986. Basically the US government forced the Japanese manufacturers to inflate their prices and apply export quotas to make US manufacturers artificially more competitive. And by that time MT had managed to steal the secrets of the Japanese manufacturers so they could produce much more reliable DRAM chips at an artificially competitive price.
Cool, Unfortunately, I also sold my original Model 50 decades ago. But I got one again years ago. I have a SCSI upgrade too : ) The 8513 is actually one of my all-time favorite CRT displays : ) I love that thing. I also have the 8518 and 8515, not sure what the difference is compared to the 8514. I'm actually trying to find an 8514 to match my 8514A graphics card. I have done a bunch of videos about my PS/2 stuff but it's paused now because I don't know how to find matching paint to respray the case. Good to know that the MT RAM is ok!
@@Epictronics1 i have a bit rare IBM PS/2 model 40sx in my collection - too with ISA16 bus... 386SX/20mhz... Full set with kb, display and mouse... Was bougth in 2010 on local retrocomputer forum) Also there's a model 30/286 in storage as it's hdd doesnt work and ISA riser is missing, the psu and mainborad works, tohug
@@yakovkhalip9714 Awesome. Nice machines. Try to recap the HDD in the model 30, it's a common problem. If you are lucky it will spin up again : )
Once again a mighty interesting video and PC. I’m really wondering how this story ends. Quite the surprise though that the MT RAM seems to be fine at first sight. That’s a first! :D
Thanks : ) I was really surprised too. Someone in the comments wrote that MT RAM were good in 1988
@Mr Guru That might be great news. I really don't want to replace all those RAMs!
Just a thought about the Miniscribe disk. I have one that doesn't spin up. I unscrewed the circuit board & laid it to one side, the platter motor cable (on the left side) still attached & was able to help it to spin up by manually spinning it, I think, anti-clockwise. Seems the platter motor assembly has gotten stiff over the years. Still trying to work out how to get something like sewing machine oil into the right location. This, of course, may be nothing to do with your Miniscribe disk.
Thanks, I'm about to take it apart. I'll try to spin it manually
That fuzzy junk you found on the hard drive sure looks like electrolytic cap packing to me....
You're right. I better check all the electrolytic caps one more time
That number of MT RAM chips made me laugh hard. i feel guilty now!
I think we're in luck. Someone commented that MT RAM from 1988 isn't prone to fail!
The paper in the hard drive looks suspiciously like Electrolytic cap guts
I agree. I have the HDD on the workbench today. I may remove the electrolytics to be able to inspect them more thoroughly
I think this "Canon" PC was made by Acer. It looks similar to the Acer 915P. Perhaps you can try Acer setup disks if these are elsewhere to find.
Yeah, you're right! It looks very similar to the very first Acer PC. We still have the same problem though. There isn't much to be found online about this first version of the Acer 915P. There is also an Acer 915P II, but it has a different MOBO
Cannon also made a 486 iirc, it's a lot uglier looking. I think it's a NEC rebrand because it's rounded looking and from 1994 iirc, I found one in an eWaste drop off. Sadly I no longer have it. Neat video btw!!
Thanks!
this chunky diode is probably for the spin motor, so maybe that is dead?
try to look at voltages on wires going to the drive motors.
Yes, I think this cool drive deserves a repair attempt. I have checked the diod and it seemed fine. I'll do some basic troubleshooting of the drive in the next vid
It could still be the diode... only that not the diode went up in smoke, but whatever piece of moisture catching dust rested on it and might have caused a short.
Definitely something fishy in that circuit. One likely cause might be a seized stepper.
the heads are siezed on the platters on that drive, you need to open it and pry the heads off of the disk surface with a toothpick or plastic tool...dont try to spin the platters or youll rip the heads off instantly......you may VERY gently try to turn the stepper and it often works, but dont try to spin the platters..lateral movement when the heads are stuck will detach them from the arms... its very easy to unstick those drives, and after you do it just use spinrite on it. it will exercise the drive real good and the heads should not stick again if you use the drive once or twice a year..to spin the stepper use pliers on the stepper shaft but not on the "interrupter" if you move the interrupter too far off of its original position on the shaft, the drive will not complete its self test and you cannot use it or format it again...if that happens i can give you some tips on how to realign it and after that it will need a low level format.... if in the end you can get it working dont throw it away, you can swap parts and controllers on those old drives and they work, i had here a miniscribe scsi drive from a mac that had a bad circuit board and i swapped in the circuit board from a dead mfm miniscribe 8425 and the drive is now a healthy mfm 8425 after a low level format...i also had to swap in the sensor/tachometer because the scsi drive didnt have one but it had the place to mount it...you can play a lot with those drives and they respond very well....please keep it
Thank you, that is very useful info. I have the project put aside but only for a week or two. We should soon be back to this Canon
@@Epictronics1another thing i may add is that you should test the drive alone, just plug it to power with an psu and it should spin, then seek...if the hard drive is fitted with an LED it should blink randomly then light up for a second then it goes off permannetly and the drive keeps spinning....if there is a fault it can display error codes by blinking, if it fails the self test, i have the table of the error codes for that drive...but first you need to get it to spin...insisting on the drive while its siezed can fry the driver for the motor. i am certain it will work if you are patient...oh and dont worry about clean room or dust...it doesnt matter on those stepper drives with such low data density...think about it as a big floppy disk..looking forward for the next video
@@MrHBSoftware Great, I'll give that a try, thanks!
Another interesting crusty! 😆
:)
It's probably not it , but other brands of these mains filter capacitorso besides RIFA with the same design as the RIFAs can also pop in the same way ( (I've had it happen with a WIMA branded one for instance ). so if you find nothing else that have popped could check for that, looked like there was at least one of that type in the PSU.
Good to know, thanks. I have done some more tests with the PSU and it seems stable
I have almost the same computer, but it's branded as Fujitsu s-200 (if I remember correctly...) But I believe the motherboard could have been made by Acer. Those reference numbers look quite like acer PC's of that era
Cool, a google search for 'Fujitsu s-200' didn't help, unfortunately. Let us know if you find anything else on this. My board has one Acer chip, the M2201. Google doesn't seem to know anything about that chip either
I was watchign this and although the date on the Miniscribe drive may have been 1988, but with the way Miniscribe was, it could have been in stock for a while, so this may have failed because of being a low spec machine released in 1989/1990.
It is quite a well built machine with a good quality power supply and a very well made motherboard.
I'll check some more dates to see when It might have been made
😮 where can I get that matrix-style screensaver thingy from at the end of the video?
It's all over the interweb, just google "matrix dos screensaver" and you should find it
i had in my collection a Canon PC/XT. Saddly sold it in 2012(
cool, did it look like this one?
@@Epictronics1 not exactly ... it looked a bit different. was 8mhz XT with CGA/HGA video output, with a swich to change between them) here's a link to google disk with a picture of it)
drive.google.com/file/d/17FiLxc94MVTwEn9-tOLMcOAyU7IGb1to/view?usp=share_link
@@yakovkhalip9714 So, Canon tried the market with an XT too. I wonder if they made these PCs or if they were licensed products
That diode have black leads probably because they silver coated. Just my opinion. I had experience with silver contacts
I wonder what might have caused this particular diode to oxidize, and not any of the other diodes. Assuming they all have some silver in the leads?
@@Epictronics1 I can't see any other diodes as same model as this to compare. I think that is the only component with silver. Maybe it's military spec diode idk. By the way you should inspect thar board again. Because that fibers at 15:43 and 15:52 is paper separator from electrolityc capacitor. It happens when they blow up. That's why it smelled "funny".
@@dextertech6570 Ah, ok. I will do some basic troubleshooting of the Miniscribe in one of the two upcoming videos. Maybe there are more components underneath that PCB
my favorite was my canon innova 486e i upgraded everything from the cache to the video ram and even had a pentium overdrive like some weird 87mhz...wish i never threw it away...
Yeah, we all have similar regrets
Old hardware can be a bit weird sometimes. I have an IBM 5162 and a couple of years ago there was smoke pouring out of the power supply, I opened it up but I couldn't see anything wrong (I'm not trained) and it's fine. I've used it since without any problems.
I actually have a 5162 too and it's a real gem : ) That smoke probably came out ot the RIFA capacitor in the PSU. The computer will work fine without it but I tend to replace them anyways
@@Epictronics1 I might have another look, they seem to be quite cheap on eBay so maybe I’ll look into replacing it.
@@Kundalini12 It's not uncommon to just remove them. But I like to replace them
@@Epictronics1 I’ve had a look inside the PSU, everything that could be a rifa (from the images I’ve found online) seem to be ok. There’s no visual sign that they’ve failed or burnt out. The images online show these capacitors with rifa written on them but I can’t see any inside the PSU like that. The closest thing I’ve found is two white ones with 1.0J25o printed on the top. Perhaps I’ll just leave it as it seems to work for now.
@@Kundalini12 Yes, the only known caps inside the PSU that usually go bad are clearly branded RIFA. This means that it's probably a tantalum capacitor on the motherboard that has blown. The computer is very likely to work with a blown tantalum. I would recommend replacing or at least removing it. Here is a random picture from google of a blown tantalum. erickenny.files.wordpress.com/2019/09/ejk_8322.jpg?w=1024
The NABU has been figured out software's been put up on a website for it and it's fully functional with games and everything now you need to look on CZcams there's a guy that's hacking it in Canada he's got the original developers software that the guy sent him and information on it and everything he's got it running just like it did on the cable network back in the day.
The channel is called DJ Sures
Awesome. Time to catch up with what I have missed on YT while recording this vid
@Epictronics I've been watching as I too ordered a Nabu computer. Looks like a fun project
@@RudysRetroIntel cool, really looking forward to that project : )
There's another channel where someone added an SD card reader to the Nabu. czcams.com/video/bcBu24DlZQM/video.html
czcams.com/video/OVD-OanAn-w/video.html
I don't ever recall those big black batteries leaking. At least it was not a varta. Those are just awful.
Yes, this was a very nice surprise : )
still you have?
The PC? Yes, I recorded this vid this week
Uuuuh, first?
First comment? The video is new
you should thank the Lord instead, people do nothing useful, alone, without Christ
I have hard time believing people created this/world/universe all alone
dont believe in dead spirits walking/talking
no life can be bought, its only given, by God, for free, not against any work effort, it's still God's gift, not people's, even if you receive it
have you tried laser cutter/printer/engraver soldering
dont claim to obey law if you want to be inside, with law you are outside, in the dark, crying, with the law
I think Canon also made laptops IIRC from the TigerDirect magazines. They had a laptop w/a BubbleJet printer built-in. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_NoteJet
That's cool. I have something similar, an IBM 5140 with an attached printer. It looks ridiculous and I love it :)
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_Computer_Systems
Wikipedia has a list of all the Canon Computer Systems made Computers.
cool, that's quite the list actually. This machine is missing though : ) an Interesting read too. I didn't know Canon was a large investor in neXT
@@Epictronics1 they apparently took over hardware production after Next got out of it. But I also Noticed the list starts with there x386 line and doesn't list this i286.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_NoteJet
They also partnered with IBM Japan to make a Laptop, Bubble Jet, and Scanner combo unit that was sold under both brands.
@@JeffreyPiatt the list also skips over their 6809 based system with a "CPM-like" OS. The CX-1 (Monitor) / BX-3 (Built-in printer and a fluorescent text display). It came after the AX-1 (calculator programming) / BX-1 (BASIC programming) 6800 based desktops.