The best INITIATIVE method for your RPGs | TKtv
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- čas přidán 6. 08. 2024
- Initiative (turn order) can be frustrating and slow in your TTRPGs. Whether you play Mothership, Dungeons and Dragons, or ANY other roleplaying game, there is one superior Initiative method for you.
If you find this helpful, consider buying everything we sell at shop.tuesdayknightgames.com/ - Hry
I like the Basic/Expert way where both sides roll a d6 highest wins and you reroll every round. It's simple clean and in my opinion promotes team work.
brilliant. Definitely going to try this!
@@hashijouzu cool hope it goes well. I do have to warn it does more specifically work with the other systems of Basic/Expert so it might have some issues with other systems so keep that in mind.
I use the death in space way where the one attacking is first then choose who is next, that person does something then decided who is next, etc...then when all are done the last character to have play decided who is the next one. This can lead to have the last character doing a double round as they can choose themselves since its a new round.
Popcorn Initiative is its nomenclature. Me too.
I ran D&D for over 2 years and then, after finishing a campaign, finally dipped into reading other games. The first one was Dungeon World and I've never looked back.
The realization that... you don't actually have to roll initiative, blew my newb mind!
I love just movie-editing my way around the table!
Exactly! I just wanted to write something similar! The narrative decides who goes first in PBTA systems.
I’ve enjoyed the narrative method because of the speed and engagement. I feel like less people zone out and everyone feels more able to interact with the environment as a whole rather than “just fight monster”.
The most important thing is having fun. I am fully in the theater of the mind camp. I love the narrative aspect of tabletop rpgs. I have had amazing combat encounters too but they stem purely from the narrative aspect.
Combat to me has always been the best when a party member has their moment. A duel between your campaign long rival, the monster that killed once killed your family or a moment to defeat and subdue a creature that felled a party member.
I adore eliminating things like initiative, attacks of opportunity, highly structured rules (and the need to find and analyze a rule that stops the fun)
This video is great and the round Robin is something I will be implementing absolutely!
Always a pleasure to see the rpg content from you.
Love the new system in mothership. Especially because involved the players, all the players, in the simultanean action. I find out in some tables de D&D that people start to watch their phones after the 2 first round, because it can be long and they feel that don't have any power in what is happening, so until they turn, they just disconnect from the table.
To me, the new system in mothership is amazing.
Great video! I really loved Popcorn Initiative for many years. One time initiative and then everyone passes a weapon, usually a flail or axe that we slammed into the table when it was our "turn". Currently, we're using one d6 on either side of the screen. The players can go at any time they wish if it is their sides turn. Each player takes turns rolling for their side...TIES mean everyone goes at once, at the same time!!! Though we will resolve individually, this changes up the tactics on those rounds. It works for my current table because I see the dread in everyone's eyes when we are squaring up to roll, And if the baddies went last in the previous round if they win that round they know that they are about to get some more HP deductions, etc. It causes a reaction in my players which is exciting. The everyone roles initiative and do initiative order each round is boring as F. Again great video! Looking forward to seeing more!
One rule I like to use to determine how much time (in seconds) each player has to decide their actions is by adding their Intelligence score + 3. I read it as their quick thinking allowing them to better access the situation and thus making better use of their turn. Also, that makes Intelligence less of a dump stat for any class but the wizard.
Thank you. Great content and superlative delivery!
Rolling initiative is like stopping a movie right before the best part to take drink orders. I would like for combat to be as fluid as role-play, thank you very much!
Few thoughts on this...
I feel there should be some give back to the player that does happen to have invested in something that would normally increase their initiative only to find out it's the seating order at the table to determine when they go. Lets say in D&D/Pathfinder/OSR type games where your DEX modifier is instrumental to a high init, by tinkering with initiative rules in such a way you're removing the advantage to players that invested in this stat. I would try to think of a way to give something back to these players to maintain the balance between stats.
However, in other games like Cyberpunk and Shadowrun that have very extensive initiative rules including very expensive cybernetic modifications which sole purpose is to make you faster in combat (who Shoots first, kills first).
It really depends on the genre and game rule set you're dealing with initially. I would look close at any games initiative rules as is and determine what are you taking away from players that would naturally benefit from the rules as they are.
This is the most amazing opening I've seen on a youtube video. "talk about xxx... while I try to covince you to buy all our shit..." brilliant.
Personally I love the system where all the PCs make a check/save (I use roll under stat), and those that pass go before the monsters in a group turn, then the monsters get a group turn, then the PCs that failed initiative get a group turn. After that it’s a new round and the PCs make their initiative save again (and thus possibly getting a double turn if they failed their first save and passed the second).
It makes combat more dangerous by forcing the PCs to worry about burst damage from the enemies, it’s orders of magnitude faster than having to sort players individually (let alone having each monster roll), but it still ties initiative to a stat and feels familiar enough that trad players don’t get stressed out. The group turns are awesome because they encourage combo attacks, synergy, etc.
I use this in my homebrew game (basically Into the Odd + classes and a spell system) and it’s been fantastic. Not sure where I first saw this initiative method, maybe Black Hack.
Generally the GM rolls one initiative for all monsters or might roll for one or more main opponents, and another for the rest, depending on the GM's choice, and for minions, companions, pets and npc's for the player they generally go with the player games, not separately.
I have two methods
Frist is to pre roll initiative at the start of a session and just use that for the entire thing
Second is a bag of tokens, a token of each player and a token for each enemy type. Pull a token, its that player's turn.
You could also do a slapjack method. Player whose card is on the bottom goes first. It gives the benefit to the quick-witted players with the better reactions... sounds like initiative to me!
I love the idea of doing it by marching order
This method felt very natural to me in Mothership, though I've not played any RPG's prior to Mothership to have a comparison. As long as the GM can ensure everybody is heard and participating and reel those dominating individuals that are always trying to do everything or dictate the course for the group, it works really well.
Even if there's a roll involved, it helps to hold players to a quick response regarding their chosen action. Keeping up the pace is paramount to keeping tension and interest. And there's no excuse for people to waste time on their turn when they've had time to ponder during other players' turns.
I remember a time when I was Storytelling a World of Darkness game. I said "TJ, roll Wits+Alertness!" He said "What?" I said "You fail" and moved on to the next player.
Thanks! I'm really finding this series helpful!
Excellent! Thanks for sharing.
Definitely like using round Robin when running 5e. I mostly play Forbidden Lands these days and I love the 1-10 cards. You deal them and then the players can change the order if they want at the start of every round. Flexible, clear, fast, and no book keeping. Along with the dice system this merges tactical and narrative combat in a way that makes fast and fun conflict encounters.
Just wanted to say that this series is awesome! Don't change anything.
Thanks so much!
The biggest caveat to all of this is that you want to be careful switching up the order throughout the combat.
It can get a little hectic and difficult to track.
And if there are spells or effects that have turn based phrasing it can get messy.
This, of course, is less of an issue with martials, and it makes them feel really cool when you mix up their turns between themselves like well synchronized fighting unit.
I think that forcing a time limit of player decision is not a good idea. Without the time to think about complex action, they'll be drawn to simple action - attack the nearest monster. I belive that for an interesting combat, players need to have other options that just slamming their numbers agains the oponnent until one of them drops to zero.
Lancer initiative is pretty interestig in this regard. Player goes first, then a monster, then the previous player decidides which player goes next and so on everyone from one side played their turns, then go all of the other. And Lancer, from I read, are two different games - one inside machas and one outsides of mechas.
- It estabilishes a clear order of action.
- It mixes up turns so each side has can potentially to react to the other.
- It allows player to play their action in the order they want, such as getting out of the way before wizards chucks fireball.
- If player doesn't know what to do, they can choose to go last.
options 1 and 2 I see you've been reading my posts in the discord about initiative Alan lol.
Since you mentioned Warhammer, I use a very simple initiative hack for it: We do not roll any dice. Instead, initiative is fixed and equal to each combatant's Agility. This makes going down the order of combat quick and easy. Everyone knows when their go is, and people can concentrate on whom to support, whom to attack, where to put that area of effect spell, and where enemy reinforcements might be hiding. There is one exception to this rule: whoever initiates combat acts first.
I usually do conditional initiative: do you wanna hit the goblin? Do it. Do you wanna hit him before he hits you? Roll to see who’s faster!
as GM, I threw out initiative rules over 30 years ago. as you stated, we are playing a role-playing game, not a tactical war game.
as for players engaging the scene. since I never say "roll for initiative", it is upon the player to tell me what their character is doing (including attack actions). when combat activities are occurring, I quickly ask a player (no particular order) what they are doing. as they explain the activity, I am still describing events. as they are resolving the activity, I am already asking another player for their activity. this keeps any encounter at a high pace with constant interaction. when a player hesitates, I skip them... no delayed actions. most encounters last 5 to 10 minutes.
I've seen a method where whichever is the smaller force goes first.
1. For balance.
2. Because it's easier to get a smaller force moving.
It scales up well with 3rd parties too.
And they can always collectively delay their turn.
I've also seen a system wherein everyone rolls and decides amongst yourselves who get what initiative while the DM figures out how to distribute the monsters initiative likewise.
This is very similar to the traditional method, except if player A rolls 23, they can instead give that to player B, and player Bs 3 can go to either player A or another member.
It doesn't solve the problem presented in this video, but it is interesting nonetheless and can really make an encounter run smoother.
You should put these diary videos in a playlist!
No problem. I will do this soon.
Personally I like rolling initiative to determine order. I think it creates some tension, uncertainty and excitement. One roll per player (and then 1 roll for all enemies) isn’t an immersion killer IMO. I’ve also played in games that have used these narrative methods. Of the 3 options I prefer the round robin method best. But I think you need to be careful with using a timer or rushing players as I’ve seen inexperienced/timid players really shrink into their shell due to the time pressure. I also personally don’t mind the marching order method but it can get a bit ‘wargamie’ and bog down unless you use a map/floor plan eg people unsure (and arguing) about where they are relative to their team mates and the enemy.
Thinking story first is the first mistake.
I ran a game of Mothership last week using narrative initiative and it went so well! No one questioned it and everyone said that it was a really engaging session. Thank you Alan for telling me it’s possible :)
9:12 you might think that is true but you have played on Discord on a server like Dungeon Crawlers where you can Mothership games and you try to ask the GM for help or choices, or go in depth about a choice you want to make, then there will be most likely some Butthurt King or Queen who will complain about you later saying you take too long on your turn, or challenge your player agency, treating you like you are a horrible person for utilizing your player agency, or treat you like you are a bad person/bad gamer for daring to do the very thing you suggest is perfectly ok to do, and could in fact lead to you being banned as a 'problematic player'.
They expect you to know all the rules, or the vast majority, quickly state what you want to do, not ask for options, take eight seconds or less to complete your turn, or else your a bad player not worthy of joining games, and essentially treat you like you are flawed as a human being. This is the type of server, like so many other gaming spaces, that claims to uphold Diversity and Inclusion, but only for those who hold the right thoughts, follow the many unspoken and unstated rules, so no one is going to tell you take eight seconds or less on a turn, but if you don't then you'll be treated like you committed a Sin, and they won't ever let you forget it, so there is little to no real forgivenness, like 'what you did last year is in the past', since if you break another rule stuff you did literally a year or more before will be brought out so you accumulate a list of grievances, and remember these are not stated so you won't know when you break such a rule.
Also people who are Game Masters are valued far more than Players, especially players who almost never game master. That is the pecking order. That means someone who is a GM, but passive aggressive, breaks those same rules stated above, most likely won't face the same consequences and be banned, because they bring value to the server as a GM, hosting games. They might do that same treatment to players in their game as a passive aggressive or outright aggressive GM too, and the real best solution is NOT banning someone for stupid reasons like this, and simply allowing people to choose what players or gamemasters they want to play in. Part of the reason behind this Toxic AF policy of hypersenstive banning is due to the concept that people don't want to appear rude, or direct, and yet its ok to hold different opinions. You can say "i don't wan to play with that player or GM', yet their solution is to treat people like Rudolf, and not let them play in the reindeer games. They act like the the reindeer culture that is Exclusionary and lacks true Diversity.
It is sad but that is the reality about many servers.
Wow. That hurts to hear. I'm feel awful to anyone who has that experience with their gaming group. I, like many others, have also had bad game experiences with others. Now, I really do my best to play with curated friends and players to prevent hurtful times.
For comedic results try giving them a set time. They ended up killing a messy reporter and began fighting between them in a Power Rangers Parody RPG.
They were so tense at the battle that I asked them to sing in chorus the Megazord's blow to lower difficulty... and they did.
Next time I will ask them to pose. 😂
Unluckily for them (but good for the universe) it ended with a TPK, those psicopaths in colored wetsuits died horrendously at their own hands to kill Tiamat (big bad boss).
Chainmail and Fighting Fantasy RPG had it best.
In Chainmail everyone declared actions (the plan for which was already agreed upon) then both sides started moving. Half way through the move missiles and spells were fired. If two missile casters targeted each other that's when you tie-break roll, dex giving modifiers to see if the arrow hits the wizard before he fireballs everyone to hell. Then second half-move and then melee. Larger weapons hit first when closing into melee then smaller weapons next round and back and forth until someone died, moved away or morale broke. Weapons of equal size forced another tie break on a d6+dex. This is where individual initiative came from, it was just tie breaks for equal wep sizes and missiles.
Fighting Fantasy RPG the GM declared first then players and everyone rolled opposed (each combatant 2d6+skill, higher roll dealt damage). So no one went "first." Not as simulation-ey as Chainmail, but nice and easy.
MoSh 0e can be sped up with either style, Chainmail-wise it would be half-move->shoot->half-move->melee (rolling attacks unopposed), and FF-style would be wardens declaring enemy actions then players either shooting vs instinct or moving in to melee combat vs armor etc. MoSh 1e does more FF-style, but more conversational and with unopposed rolls.
But yes, either way rolling initiative is lame. Our wargamer predecessors never did it, they just used it as tie breaks. It was basically Kriegspiel with massive look-up matrices/tables.
Ah, good ol FF 😊
While I like rules to determine getting the drop on the other to be very tactical, I generally don't like initiative. It only maters when you go first on rounds you kill an opponent. Then they are denied their round because they are dead. I prefer the enemies go first and then the players are free to react with all knowledge of what's happening the rest of the round. Basically trading that round were the opponent is killed in battle for no fog of war.
Yeah narrative makes sense for story telling and immersion - but what about Rogue and Monks ? They've choose class where beeing first is important. Rogue Assasin ? Always will attack first ? Thst's OP. Always attak later ? That kills it sublclass ;)
Round robin is what I use though I never called it that but NOW!!! It's round Robin time Mahahahahhaha great video
In D&D we just use Dex but other games like FAL make Dex part of initiative which adds to the game or Troika where init is' part of the madness.
I haven’t played Troika but heard that it does make Initiative a special part of the game
perfect
It's true that most tactical combat in RPGs is boring as shit, but for me the solution isn't to get rid of it, but rather to try to improve it. I'm fine with playing a different game when combat starts, but it should be a fun one.
Why is batman helping the spider? Why?
You've heard of spider-man, right? This is his spider Mom.
Roll d6 per side. Winner goes clockwise. Monsters usually closest first unless the boss is up there then he goes first. Just Basic D&D stuff. I have everyone declare what they are doing. Why? because fighting is hectic and fast. You only get 6 seconds bc the turn is 6 seconds. This isnt the time to be searching through the spell part of Players Handbook. (Noobs do get some leeway on this.)
GM: Dwarf, what are you doing?
Dwarf: Im attacking the Gob with armor.
GM: Elf?
Elf: uhh.... DM: one .... two.... three.... four.... five.... six.... ok you are dodging.
GM: Wizard? After everyone declares, all roll. We total the damage.
(Roll both D20 to hit and the damage dice same time). If the sides tie, then all the damage occurs at the same time and maybe both PC and monster die fighting each other with a theatrical simultaneous hit! From hells heart I smite thee!!!!!
I also kind of like a roll 11 or higher on the D20 to win (I might adjust according to the situation, ie monsters drinking and players sneaking, roll 5 or better). Thinking seriously about using this in the future.
I like any mechanic that has the players screaming YAY! when someone rolls that 19, or 6. Won't tolerate anything that involves 20-40 minute combat rounds and most people completely tuning out to check books or phones.
Simply rolling a die takes 3 secs max. A 10:52 video to cut down on 3 sec. Wow
I too like rolling for initiative, and don’t think it’s detrimental to the flow of the game…. But having said that I recently played Runequest for the first time and (could have just been the GM) but working out turn order really felt complicated and really did break the flow of the game
"If you like tactical combat, you probably like initiative."
You could be more wrong, but I don't know how. Turn based combat is to tactical combat what phrenology is to neurology.
I wouldn't call it Tactical vs Theater of the Mind. You make it sound that Theater of the Mind is chaotic. I wouldnt' even call it Theater of the Mind either.
I like it Game Mechanic Initiative vs Roleplay Iniative. Roleplay call allow you be tactical, to be chaotic. How you would approach something, how would other react. It is more realistic. Rollling for initiative isn't realistic even if people spent thousands of pages to describe why it is. Dex, moving your hands fast determine how fast you are. This shouldn't be a thing. People freeze, wisdom allows you not to freeze. Your mind can react faster, and think of how to counter something. That is your mind. There are a number of things that let you do so. Imagine having a -3 dex modifier that means you are slower than everyone else, but you are a centaur STR rogue/monk, so you faster than everyone else at the table. Dex doesn't determine your speed, DEX doesn't determine the number of actions or attacks you can have in a turn too. A fighter can deal 9 attacks in one round with a -3 dex mod and dex is supposed to be fast hands.
Stats shouldn't determine who goes first or not, it's the actions, plans which all come down to roleplaying, but then everyone is affected by roleplaying as it should be. Who defends and who reacts will depend on who started something first.
your proposed initiative systems are like, innately competitive and feature negative reinforcement/punishment of your players if they take too long. i like your format, but your ideas aren't collaborative/cooperative.
I hear what you're saying. I agree u don't want it to feel competitive or punitive. He did mention asking and table etiquette, though.
Everyone going on the same side creates more collaboration IME. I love consequences as does my table. So we skip people then come back to them later, so they don't lose their turn.