Episode 14 (July 10, 2023), "Lilith Unfair"
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- čas přidán 9. 07. 2023
- This week we're delving into the legends, myths, misunderstandings, and slanders surrounding Lilith. Who or what is Lilith? Feminist icon? First wife to Adam? Night demon? Owl? We break down the origin stories, and get to the bottom of this mysterious and fascinating character.
Then, "stele" Dan McClellan gives the inside scoop on the standing stones of ancient Southwest Asia. We discuss their archaeological importance, their cultural and religious significance, and where you can get one of your own (if you're the unscrupulous enterprising type).
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Don't worry, Dan. When you sing, the tune can't be recognised 😂
I love the dynamic of the two Dans. Definitely one of my favourite podcasts
Hey Boys, you compliment each other and provide a worthwhile source of information. Professor Stavrakapoulus must have been Marvelous to study with. I loved her book on God. I spent about 10 years in college, and miss the classroom. Now 82, I try to keep my mind sharp by choosing good podcast to presence.
I turned on a lamp just before Dr. Dan said that words, "sheds some light." COINCIDENCE?!?!?!?
Really interesting about the steele reinterpreted in headstones. I recently went hunting ancestors (I call it digging up dead people), and said to my brother "This is our great grandparents" when we found their stone. It was just reflexive. There's so much I don't know about human cognition and how we function as material beings, the neuroscience and neuroplasticity.
Stele btw, which is where the spelling and pronunciation problems originate. It's just in that spot where we think it should be more similar to something else. I always said "steel" myself, before hearing Dan say it. But yes, it's cool and interesting how our minds function, and how we still do things that our ancestors that were completely morally and ethically different from us. Different religions and understanding of the universe, but still ultimately human with human minds.
Best thing to wake up to!! So excited for Lilith content because I have tried to research her before, and it’s hard to tell truth vs myth.
The channel Esoterica has done some very good videos on Lilith, if anyone is looking for some cross reference material.
I enjoy these chats so much. Fun and fascination.
Man dan looks ready to go off at 21:37 and I'm so ready for that discussion when it happens!
Recently I had a Catholic explain their statues/icons in a way that reminded me of stele. Interestingly enough, Protestants consider that to be idol worship, similar to how the later reforms redefined which types of stele were accepted. Even *more* interesting is that the cross, something both Catholics and Protestants use, can *also* be considered a stele. In fact, it goes well with the headstone example, especially since both are markers for someone's death
I wonder if the idea of the modern grave stone being related to the stele could also include the tradition of bringing flowers to a grave site. The flowers representing the Asherah pole in this case. I just find it interesting that the staff was included in the Ark with the tablets. Awesome episode!
Interesting -- or flowers as an offering in and of themselves generally, not going empty-handed when visiting a deceased loved one.
Once again guys, another banger of a video. Excellent work!
And...Dan: I just started listening to this podcast in the few weeks but i mostly listen and don't really watch it. But i have been watching your Reels. I think, even before I started listening to DoD. But I just looked up at my phone and recognized you....not realizing it's been You the whole time! LOL. Nice to put the connection together.
Dogs and cats, living together...mass hysteria 😂
Yes! I was gonna wait until whatever this episode was going to be to leave a comment that you should talk about Lilith because you mentioned her before and she is a key character in the new Diablo 4 game. Great timing!
And even in the game there's the debate on whether or not she's done anything wrong!
@@AmandaTroutmanyep
This is always incredibly fascinating
nice discussion of the stele! we discuss these a lot in ancient art history -- stele of hammurabi from babylon, which has his code on it, victory stele of naram-sin from akkad are two of the most famous.
Great episode! I'm a little late to the party; but I'm a little startled by some of the parallels that can be drawn with the practices associated with the steles, the way that ancient cultures conceptualized how divine presence could be interacted with, it all sounds very....Tantric? A lot of these practices, down to even the way that the asherah poles were utilized, reminds me very heavily of early vedic ritual practices.
I'd argue Shiva Linga are used in a very similar way, even today.
Very cool episode and information!! Keep it up, y'all!
35:53 "about meter high as well and a foot and a half wide"
Dan used confusion! It's super effective! 😅
If anyone (like me) keeps forgetting about the ratios:
1 meter is 3 feet and a bit, so ≈ 3ft high, ≈ 1.5ft wide
or
1 foot is ≈ 30 cm, so ≈ 1 m high, ≈ 0.5m wide
I’m a simple guy; I hear Lilith, I immediately think of Neon Genesis Evangelion!
i've never heard these theories about headstones. the stelae of hammurabi and naram-sin are basically proclaiming the greatness of their reigns
Very interesting discussions! Especially the thoughts on steeles.
Mind blown! When you started talking about 10 commandments tablets being mini standing stones/divine image. Really need to read your book I downloaded moons ago.
This was by far the best episode yet you guys are really coming into your own
I love how 1990s their references are
9:06 My favorite lyrics from Burning Spear on He Prayed. Sinead O Connor did an effing great cover of it too!
Hey Dan, it's trully a master class! May you tell please what is the passage in Numbers about bringing in Elohin (the ark) to the temple?
Ancient Greek mythology has multiple creations and multiple floods between them.
The OED has the word stela for archeologists, plural stelae. And stele for botanists. 😎
So if these Bronze Age, anthropomorphic deities retained some features of animism while also being related to ancestor veneration, is there an argument to be made that there was a historical Bible god?
That is, was there a dude who died and through various ways and means evolved over time into the ancient Israelite deity we know and loathe? Is there some history here of the confluence of animism, ancestor veneration and city deities?
possibly ; the line between nature spirit, ghost, and deity has always been fairly blurry, especially when you take out the specifics a given group of people comes up with to clarify those distinctions -
@@nikoblack1272 The issue as I see it is that there is no way to tease apart the influences.
Was there a venerated ancestor who came to be viewed as inhabiting an object? Or was there a spirit inhabiting an object which came to be viewed as an ancestor/to have attributes of an ancestor attributed to it?
Any argument suffers from being unfalsifiable, given our lack of time machines and that whatever happened would have to have happened back in pre-history.
That's more what I meant when I asked "Is there an argument to be made?"
The whole thing seems like something that could happen at an intuitive level but I was wondering if there was anything else to support such a notion beyond pure intuition.
It would be cool to discover that there is some cultural through line taking us back to some African dude 90k years ago. I just don't think we ever could.
maybe. hard to say. yahweh is a fairly late deity.
Another great episode, thanks!
And interesting Patrons only bonus! ❤
About to complete Diablo 4. Having confusing feelings about her.
I'm sure Margaret Barker would agree that menorah and Asher's tree are related symbols
Steely Dan was a steam powered strap on dilldoe in William Burroughs' Naked Lunch, and it's what the band took their name from.
Deviant sexuality according to the culture that created the myth of Lillith that may also play a role in any religious tradition that retains adherence to the natures and proper behavior implied by the Midrash of Lillith. Modern Reform Judaism actually has a feminist magazine that is entitled Lillith. So, even certain forms of Judaism in practice have reclaimed the myth of Lillith
On this day in NE Iowa @ state we will be remembering that Bruce Twilla buried in Marion, Iowa , Jordan John Trebon Wadena, Iowa, and Kimberly Gerelaman - all too young to die under the age of 30. ! And I’m not sure where Kimberley Gerelaman is buried but Travis Zellmer would know. He said the song Wake Me Up When September Ends is played since she died in September! If this is really about population control , why is Quinton Twilla and Mary Johnson’s son who was a gay man buried in Marion , IA ? And why did he die on Quinton Twilla’s birthday? And why does everything knot 🪢 back to fiction ? Please remember these people died in the last 30 years and on this Easter they won’t be resurrected! That is why we use the word organism - the child or religion shouldn’t be able to ‘body to us,’ they have also corrupted person- because to ensure double knots 🪢 they ensured that the XX sexed chromosome organism writing this would retain enough motherly qualities and will because no one should have mirdered. her Felis catus Treygve just to make double knots! And seriously she loved her 🐈⬛ more than her own species ! Well they have been nicer and more humane to her ! And she wishes that things for those of us who have been traumatized to extreme levels and who (self Homo sapien sapien organism currently typing this - I agree with - Jeg er meg- with the messenger- I have been traumatized and especially what they try to decide how they - when I , a real person named Leisl ! Why did Jordan John Trebon the 16 year old boy buried in Wadena, IA who I had a recess wedding with in 2nd grade did when we were 16 going on 17? More to this theater/‘fiction’ knotting but these people to us are more than just knots and more than the pattern ‘of’
‘ ‘ indicates scorn and sarcasm
Lauren only! For the pass to Army ! *Octavia of Trecrew ❤ of the pattern that is ! And one of the McCully Calkins of Saved in the Elgin , IA area … and we have a delinquent West Point Army trained currently retired officers daughter and juvenile delinquent as our 2nd.. I mean 3rd here.. she and he are both in the ‘Capital’ in the moment 😅
If you sing a couple o lines of song it is like a quote, also the rules allow referring to a piece of art. All those DJs sampling?
Isaiah and Lilith-makes me think of vampires! 🤣🤣
Dan, just a question. Why is the plural name for Lillith mentioned in Isa 34 when the Lillith story is created much later 700 to 1000 CE.
Maybe I just missed something.
Thank you for all your hard work en sharing it with us .
In this episode, he mentions that the liliths were a loan word meaning demons associated with night time, storm winds, and female sexual deviancy. Later exegesis combined these demons with the known practice of giving protective amulets to newborns and used them to explain the difference between the two creation accounts in Genesis: God created man and woman simultaneously and since this Lilith wouldn't submit sexually to her husband as was decent she left the garden and said she'd be actively seeking to harm newborns; subsequently, Eve was created from Adam, and as a second created being was comfortable submitting to her husband.
people's feelings about Lilith are so diverse, especially in modern times ; it's always a little weird when Jewish people and "Lilithian" demonolaters clash over who she's allowed to be -
Holy shit, they've developed mobile deity technology. Let's just concede!
"Bring Me a Shrubbery!"
18:50 Wonder if this was written by the Guild of Amulet Makers. 🤔
"and there too, Lileth shall repose"... Tremble all ye as as she may have sex incorrectly 😂
Ju of co yeah we aren’t theater tools!
The question I have is, how can Lilith afflict babies when she was the only female in the world at the time? Does that mean she knew she, or whatever replaced her, was going to be having the babies in the future? There was only Adam and Lilith at the time as I understand it.
The idea that Adam etc. were the only people seems to have been a later development. The story has clues that in some earlier form there was no assumption that the world was empty of other people. It was a myth about the origin of the Israelites which got transformed into a creation myth about the world.
The people responsible for that transformation just kept some parts which point to that previous form. So now we see, upon critical analysis, that there are logical inconsistencies like Lilith afflicting supposedly non-existent babies and the sons of Adam and Eve going off and finding supposedly non-existent wives.
Dan M just did a video on this over at his channel.
Was the demon Lamashtu?
Get yourself a pocket Adonai... all the other nations have one!
"Some kind of deamon associated with stormy " Daniels? Oh, oh, oh . . l know the the deamon. Its the big rump head, orange face, deceiver demon, the one with mu alpha gamma alpha on his capital.
So inside the Ark of the covenant was 🪦🌴🪦 🤔
I’m sure Dan M. is familiar with Julian Jaynes’s “Origins of Consciousness …” I’d be interested in his opinion about whether these stele support the claims that our early pre-conscious ancestors hallucinated voices of the dead/gods and these types of artifacts were aides in that hallucination.
Alright Dan so here is a challenge for you and some graduate student.
Take the 613 deuteronomistic laws and carve then in protosiniatic on half moon sized standing stones. Then make an ark with long carrying poles (At this point I would recommend carbon fiber construction) and place all the standing stones with the law in it. Get about a dozen men and just try and carry it. Remember these are the typical 5'0" men of say LBAC [Not known for good nutrition]
1. Get all the law and torah in the ark
2. Carry this thing around in battle.
And think about this, how much of the 613 laws would you be able to even write with essentially a shopkeepers vulgate? Judges is 1100 to 1025 BCE . . . no paleo hebrew, early phonecian, no aramaic, no akkadian cuneiform in Isra'el, no Egyotian heiroglyphs. You are essentially working with early linear a transition between protosiniatic and phonecian.
Enough said.
The Ark of the covenent was not for the mosaic law, Yahweh and Moses traditions were inserted into this. The ark of the covenent is part of the portable legal system of the mountain sky god cult of El. You only need fit hammurabi's law into it.
Beth'el. Original name was Luz. El Tell now, originally the local site was Ai that was destroyed in 2400 BCE (The first campaign of the Marian kings and later Sargon I), a city known as luz was built-up close to the site during the Early Babylonia/Kassite period. This nearby site was called Luz, but it may have been a temple site to Anath. We have to remembered that the mesopotamian gods would have been favorites of the Cult of El, as the cities they sacked were all substrate canaanite gods, and Anah is a middle Euphratean goddess, she is an imported god. Later Jewish tradition has Beth el being named by Jacob as a place were
1. Sky god is on top of the ladder
2. Angels (gods) are seen descending up and down the ladder.
This is a Yahwist tradition and they dont seem to have a problem violating the tabboos about putting El in a temple (the tabernacle god is a mountain god)
The tradition is very muddy.
With all due respect, the average male in LBAC was not 5'0"
Evidence shows the average male height was around 5'6"-5'7" which is not significantly shorter than the average height today - 5'9".
@@RockChalk263 What is the representative sample size. Let me recondition this argument, given the shorter life expectancies, the lower nutrition, extensive diseases, and resulting stature problem I don't think you can compare 5'9" modern male with that of the LBAC.
To emphasize the point, are we able to demonstrate the burials during the LBAC and if not, its the low status of burial indicative of the low wealth status.
Lets capture the Merenptah Stele.
"Israel is laid waste, her seed is no more." Could literally be translated we stole Isre'als food, and burnt her lands (a potential there for saliting giving the dead sea). So one of the early stories of victory is a canaanite general fleeing into a cave begging form milk, drinking of which he is impaled by the woman of a nomad . . . a very rustic scene. The army he was defeated by was run by a woman under a palm tree. The prehistoric city of Hazor, flattened, along with Ai and Jericho. The wealthiest cities were those of the philistines, displaced sea peoples.
16:47 you never studied
Adam was clearly wrong about the sex position. Women on top would be much easier.
Whos newborns was she going after tho? 🧐🤷♂️😂