Hammer-Forming Boiler Parts - Pennsylvania A3 Switcher, Part 2
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- čas přidán 30. 12. 2022
- This episode on Blondihacks, I’m doin’ stuff! Exclusive videos, drawings, models & plans available on Patreon!
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If you would like to speed up the annealing process, you can quench the copper in water to cool it off faster. Unlike steel, copper (and brass) are not affected by the quench and will come out fully annealed.
So does that mean you can't harden copper by cooling it quickly? If so how can you harden it? Does it have to work hardened?
@@nophead yes
From a material perspective I'm sure this is true, but would there not be a risk of uneven cooling when quenching causing internal stresses that might warp the part or cause other issues like that?
The reason I don’t quench here is that it will warp the parts. I talked at length about quenching copper alloys in my last boiler series.
My father was a certified gas-fitter amongst his varied careers. he always quenched copper pipe in water, never seemed to cause explosions, at least none that left incriminating evidence behind. Seriously though, water quenching is fine for annealing copper, but the choice to do it does depend on the job you're doing.
Quinn, you don't woodwork often, but when you do, it's to the highest precision of any woodworking channel here 😄
FR she is measuring wood in 10 thou LOL
Shoyan Japanese Carpenter disagrees, respectfully
Talking sheet or plate - it always depends on the perspective.
As some shipyard workers would say: "Anything below 20mm is foil."
😂
"One roll of 20mm alufoil thankyou, I need to wrap my lunch" xD
Shipyard workers shave with 20mm plate!
Personally, it definitely is a bit on the perspective side. But technically, it is classified. Everything below 6mm is sheet- and above is plate-metal.
As my woodworking teacher said many years ago: "always cut on the waste side of the line".
From experience with various materials, it turns out that if you don't exactly know what you're doing, that line is totally surrounded by waste.
I’ve cut this piece 3 times and it’s STILL too short!
I nearly wet myself laughing when you described a wood workers deburing tool, as a “sheet of dead tree with rocks glued to it”. 😂😂
I did wet my keyboard with the wine I spilt laughing at your comment! 🤣
Apparently its ok to use dead trees to smooth other dead trees. That's why we watch this channel. It's educational!
Great job, Quinn! It's wonderful to see you work with materials and processes you don't have a lot of experience with, and to see how your apply your machinist's skills to get the results you want.
Thanks Ron! Your channel prepared me well for this. 😄
@@Blondihacks Love the use of the float lock vise.
I actually watched Mr Pete's vids on it and was really impressed.
Then you did yours and I was even more impressed.
That's right near the top of the list when I start setting up my workshop.
This 25,347-part series is off to a roaring start!
Bet it's still finished before project Binky though.
The spring back you mentioned on the wooden formers reminded me of when I built a plug for sandcasting an intake manifold many years ago... After many hours of cutting, gluing and sanding mdf pieces together, I had a plug the correct size. Life then intervened and the project was left in my shed for two weeks... When I got back to it again, the mdf had absorbed enough moisture from the air to make the entire thing expand by about 4%! It set the project back a few weeks as I had to let the plug acclimatise before sanding it to final domension again... Hopefully less of a problem using oak in a heated workshop!
Woodwind instrument makers talk about "growback" - it happens with all types of wood and you just have to know whatever size or type of cut you make the wood will move back into the space a certain amount - even if you drill, leave for a week, and then finish ream multiple times it will still end up smaller. In production of course you just make the cut to suit but it's really frustrating at the prototype stage. By the way, for woodturning in the metal lathe you can make up a vertical shear cutting tool in HSS - you have probably seen them in older modelling books - they work like a woodturner's skew chisel, they take off very little but leave excellent surfaces and work well on wood. I'm pretty sure Mr Pete has done a video on them.
I want to thank your Patrons, too! I love this channel, but just don't have the funds to support it as I'd like to. I also just don't get why you don't have millions of subscribers, Quinn. Several makers that I watch have mentioned you with respect and admiration. Let's get the word out, folks!
10/14 is a variable tooth blade, a small section will have 10 teeth, and the next small section will have 14 teeth. They are great for killing the noisy harmonics and vibrations in the blades. Definitely, my favorite type of bandsaw blade.
Indeed to reduce/avoid resonance.
So glad you decided to start here with this project. I'm about 1.5 years into the Penn A3 in the same scale you are doing, but I started at the beginning of the book. I'm about 6 months away from doing the boiler and it scarred the heck out of me, but I'm not so worried now that I have a good video guide! BTW, your early videos are what got me to pull the trigger on a mill and lathe and now I have a full blown 2,000 square foot machine shop a few years later. You sure sent me down a very expensive path LOL!
Good luck with your build, voots!
Can you extrapolate that 1.5 years and give us an estimate on the completion time?
@@g.tucker8682 Thanks Tucker. If I can keep spending the same amount of time per month that I have been, I'd estimate another 2-2.5 years. At this point I have the tender complete minus final assembly, the frame and running gear of the engine, and I'm working on the cylinders now.
Yes reamers are used in woodworking. But typically for creating tapered conical features. This is a very common technique used to create a taper conical mortise to accept a tapered conical tenon in chairs.
Quinn as a 20+ year Stationary Engineer in a very larger steamplant with fire tube boilers producing 25lbs. per hour of superheated very dry steam your project is very cool to me. As a young power plant helper I rolled many tubes in to header plate with pneumatic chisels with specially formed rolling chisels.
Nice job for a non-woodworker! Wood is indeed a little springy so that is worth keeping in mind for any precision parts made with it. That's mostly correlated to its density but you also have to bear in mind the ambient humidity will also affect sizing so getting everything done in one day or in a humidity-controlled environment is crucial if you want high precision.
Some highly dense tropical woods (like lignum) are more resistant to this and have even been used in marine applications. There were a number of ships in WWII, both surface and submarine, that used lignum vitae bearings for their shafts. Also crops up in hydroelectric plants for their generator bearings.
The first ship I worked on (USS Shreveport - LPD-12) had wooden bearings for its shafts after they left the hull. This was in 2005.
10-14 TPI means it's a variable tooth pattern. I believe it's about every inch it switches between 10 and 14 and it's supposed to minimize the harmonics or resonance of what you're cutting.
Using precision tools on wood is always extra entertaining to me. Something about the clash of the (comparatively) imprecise world of woodworking with machining where a handful of microns can ruin a part.
Also, I have randomly wondered about how reamers would do in wood just a couple days ago. So, thanks for answering that question :)
I am a wood worker/wood turner who also does machining. I have machined wood on my metal lathe and milling machine. I normally run the machines much slower than e.g., wood turners. The wood may cut with a fast speed, but if the wood species contains resins/sugars like cherry, hard maple, purpleheart the high speed will cause a lot of heat and burn marks on the wood. Same as cutting the wood on my table saw.
Very nice work on these parts.
Dave.
My first youtube video of 2023. Thanks for all the good content, and happy new year!
Carpenters use a compas with one leg ground to a knife edge. It leaves a nice crisp line in wood, that not only are way more precise than a pencil line, but it also help avoid tear out in the wood when you cut to the line.
TRAIN TIME! TRAIN TIME! BLONDIHACKS TRAIN TIME!
Woodworkers do use reamers! Violin makers use them to ream tapered holes for friction fit tuning pegs. Similarly, guitar makers (such as myself) sometimes use them to precisely fit holes for tuning machine bushings when using vintage style tuners.
Balls out as a unit of speed is kinda hilarious. Loving your thought process as you go along! Thank you for these videos
@@TitoRigatoni just looked it up. That’s actually kinda hilarious. Thanks for the info!
My hat off to you Quinn, making your own boiler is quite an undertaking! I hope you have had a good Christmas and wish you well for 2023!
Glad to see you are back! Missed you last week. I know your streek was important so I was a little worried when there wasn't a video last week. I hope all is well with you and yours.
There was a community post about it, not sure how well YT conveys that though.
Thanks for being kinder to wood workers.
Mike
Annealing and quenching also works on Aluminum too. Had a custom sheet metal worker as a business neighbor. We had a large high temperature oven we would anneal 3'x4' sheets of aluminum. We'd hit it with a water hose as it was pulled from the oven. The aluminum was soft like chewing gum when cooled. He did work for some of Jay Leno's cars.
Dear Quinn, thank you so much! I thought that I was growing tubby as I age... now I understand that I'm simply developing curves to better withstand pressure. Happy New Year when it arrives.
For what it's worth, it's this videos series that turned me into a subscriber.
I love working with copper. With enough annealing you can make it do almost anything.
A compass is for finding your way, a pair of compasses is for drawing a circle, as my Engineering instructor liked to tell students.
Woodworkers do use reamers. Mostly old timey woodworkers, hand reamers to make tapered holes.
I'm pretty sure your spring back is due to your use of a cutter with metal working geometry and low surface speed, both of which tend to compress the fibers. A woodworking router will spin at 20,000 rpm, and the cutting edge will typically have a lot of relief. For future work you might consider trying a router bit, and crank up your rpms as high as they will go.
Very nice work. I worked in the Boeing sheet metal shop for abut 10 years. There we used s a series of tooling tabs around the periphery of the sheet metal blanks to to hold the blank for trimming and forming. There tabs would be coordinated to the different tools, templates for layout and inspection, shaper/router boards for trimming and form blocks. The tabs would be on the edges of the parts that do not have a flat edge and would be strategically placed to prevent the part from moving during forming. A tooling tab for a .250 inch dia. hole would be described as: the hole is located .50" centerling to edge of part, a .50 radius around the hole with lines connecting the tab radius to the edge of the part. After the part is formed the tab can be trimmed (sawn or sheard) from the edge of the finished part. In the event the part was formed on all edges, the tooling holes could be could be placed within the periphery of the part in the location of an existing design hole or cutout. When using a design hole always make the tooling hole undersize because the tooling holes can become distorted during processing. Just my 2¢
@5:20 You will need the mandrel to make forms for your Shay and Climax boilers.
You are getting really great results. You are well on the way to being the foremost leading boiler maker on youtube. Thanks for the video keep on keeping on.
It's the little things you learn in these videos that keep me coming back. Never knew wood had spring-back after machining like that, and it's kind of crazy to me how consistent it was given how naturally inconsistent wood is. Those copper parts came out really nice, too!
woodturner here: broadly speaking, balls out is the correct speed for wood. our tools are strange, for sure. I think the word for the deburring tool is "sandpaper," but it can be difficult to keep it all straight! lol :)
"Please work, please work, please work!" Don't know how many times I've sung that mantra too (lol)!
I think it's Eastwood that has teardrop shaped plastic hammers for forming metal.
Interesting video as usual and well explained for the layman viewer.
I successfully used an ordinary kitchen stove for annealing 3mm thick copper plates when forming the plates for a 1:12 locomotive that had a Belpaire boiler. The firebox throatplate was a beast! I ended up having to make a former in 20mm steel with 3mm radii.
at 5:07 the wrench clicks home, i love that sound
then Quinn sets torque much less than i would.
and makes something i never could
Thanks especially for the tip about filing a curve by *dropping* rather than raising the handle. That approach would never have occurred to me.
I'm a retired patternmaker and we used reamers in wood rutinly to fit pins in parts that needed to locale - just like in metal. If you ream from one side you get a tight fit, and if you ream from both sides you get a slightly looser fit. It can be handy if you have two parts where you want the pins to stay put in one of them .
For clamping the wood blocks you could probably use the same technique we use on cnc routers. Put a layer of blue painters tape on the part and on a spoil board. Super glue on the tape on one side and optionally accelerator on the tape on the other side. Slap them together and clamp the spoil board down. Chew up the spoil board as needed.
GREAT fixturing. Thanks for the tip of dropping the handle when filing something round as that is something I did not know. You're the best!
i've watched you use that technique many times over the years, but that's the first time I recall you giving an explanation. I've done it incorrectly all my life.
Would love to see you do a separate video on these secondary processes. Tips like this can help take us to a higher level of abilities.
I've seen that tip several times on CZcams but I've never found personally that I get flat spots when doing it the 'wrong' way. Maybe it is easier to get a good curve Quinn's way if you aren't an experienced filer? I tried it her way and couldn't make my body do it properly! My muscle memory is set in stone...
@@ractorc91 it's definitely counter-intuitive... if you think about it from a "teeth in the cut" perspective, "following" the curve only presents a few teeth of the file to the material, and those gullets cannot clear the swarf. Dropping the handle presents many more teeth to the material, and the gullets are therefore clear of swarf, making a much more efficient cut. This may help you adapt this method, as it was the "a-ha moment" that helped me.
@@mattmanyam that is a good point, I suppose it depends on whether you move the file faster than you 'curve' or not. Maybe I'll give it another go but I did find it almost impossible to do when I last tried it!
Bonjour Quinn,
Meilleurs Vœux 2023 depuis la France !
I wish you all the best and above all the pleasure to go on making videos that we all appreciate, especially when steam is concerned for me 😉
Amicalement, Raphaël
That’s the problem with the Dewalt bandsaw. The blade angle steers the workpiece straight into the saw frame. Every other rendition of the portaband (Porter-Cable, Milwaukee, Harbor Freight) angles the blade in such a way that you can pass a piece of any length through the blade as long as the left edge of the cut is less than 3” wide. I love this project.
Nice to see hammer-forming in action on copper. I need to do some for an upcoming project and now I'll be a little less scared!
A corner rounding tool is basically a router bit, so it makes sense it worked so well. I wonder how a router bit would work in the mill? Probably not enough RPM. I have used a corner rounding router bit in a router to machine aluminum though. Worked great, but was LOUD.
Rio Grande and Otto Frei sell Planishing hammers that are used to form and raise metal. I have used them in the past and they are wonderful.
You have learned the reason many of us switched to metal work. Wood sucks, it doesnt do what its told or stay in place. Thats why if it looks straight, it is straight.
A band saw blade listed as 10/14 has both pitches on it. If you look at the blade you will see it has sections that are 10 tpi and sections that are 14 tpi. Good for cutting metal and hardwoods. Softer materials usually get the single pitch blades. And as you know, the thinner the material the more tpi you need.
?
I think what you've got when you're milling the wood with the spring back is the wood compressing a bit with the cutter and then the stresses that kept it there are removed as you mill further down the line. The reamer wouldn't have this issue because the entire cut surface is experiencing a continuous stress/relief curve. I know I've seen some woodworking which relies on burnishing for a good consistent edge, so I'm guessing that might be somewhat what's going on
I like the trick used to form the copper sheets into parts you need. Just found this series and I’m liking it!
I'm loving that you took the trouble to 3d print a box for your old projects
Quin, you are very sharp. Thank you for these outstanding vids. Rock on girl!
Not classic woodworking, but one place I have used reamers to bore wood is RC airplane propellers. Precise fit to the engine shaft is important at 8000 or so RPM, as is balance of the prop, to minimize vibration.
The structure in the wood is like long tiny straws. When you cut them long ways ( with the grain ) they open up and tend to stand. Wood workers lightly add some water to get then to stand up then sand it off. Only hammer forming I have done is aluminum for a light wing ribs. we rounded the front leading edge to aspect a tube. A piece of round stock worked well for making the same shape as you did ( throat )
Hi, a tip if you are interested, I learned in shop class many years ago. when cutting metal have at least 3 teeth on your work. I still use that now 60 years later.
Nice work!
Great fun that you measured the spring-back effect in the oak. Thanks for that extra bit of curiosity. Excellent work as always. My favorite channel on CZcams
Idea: Link up the feedwater pump to the steam engine so the engine drives the pump. The pump's output then leads to the check valve between the tank and pump, and another valve that leads back to the feedwater tank. When you need more water in the boiler, shut the valve to the feedwater tank, and the pump will overcome the backpressure of the check valve and begin to fill the boiler. When you open the feedwater tank valve again, the pump will go back to recirculating the feedwater, and the pressure from the boiler will shut the check valve again. You could also use the exhausted steam from the engine to heat the recirculating feedwater
Annealing copper can be hugely sped with cool water quench. This is a standard practice when reusing copper head gaskets used on some engines and copper sparkplug gaskets used on all poston aircraft engines. Awesome video Quinn, thank you!
Happy new year.
My shop teacher told me many many years ago that machinists make for lousy carpenters, in our world everything has to be right on the money but in wood working not so much.
Your wooden forms are a different story though.
Thank you for making your informative videos, no matter the subject I'm always cheered to see a new notification.
Yay!! It's Blondihacks time!!! (I hope you have a wonderful evening!)
I'm not a woodworker, but I share shop space with far too many of them (and their sawdust getting all over everything), and my impression of what they'd do instead of using a reamer is to just leave the hole a little undersized, and call it a carpenter's interference fit (by which I mean whatever term a carpenter uses instead of "interference fit", which I'm sure they have a term for, given how excited the lot of them get by a big woodworking project held together without fasteners because all the joints have good interference fits... and maybe a bit of glue to help it out).
For a first-time at hammer forming, you did incredibly well!
I accidentally threw away about 12 years worth of my Live Steam, Home Shop Machinist, and Projects in Metals magazines. I was livid when I realized it. However, I still have all of my The Model Engineer magazines and the entire PDF library.
We will get you into woodworking eventually, one step at a time. :)
Wood is a living thing and it will absorb moisture from its environment. As the wood heats up it loses moisture and as it cools down it will absorb moisture and expand. If you were to use a product like Cactus Juice you could impregnate the wood under vacuum followed by a heat curing process and this would eliminate the issue of the wood shrinking and expanding. The wood would virtually be water resistant.
Yup, woodworkers use reamers, though they're usually a bit bigger. Kindof a critical tool for chairmaking when getting the tenons on the legs and the mortices in the seat to match properly. But they're not straight reamers; they look more like pipe reamers because the mortices taper internally.
Your enthusiasm is infectious as always. Stay awesome!
Well done, those processes are not easy to get right.
Reamers for woodworking is kind of niche. We generally fit the things to whatever hole size we can make, not the other way 'round. Too, wood moves so much with temp and humidity that the tolerances you need for machining are orders of magnitude unnecessary for woodworking. ("As a general rule" caveats apply.)
Hi Quinn. Thanks for posting. This will be a fascinating series The Pennsy A-3 has been a favorite locomotive model of mine for 45 years. I received a low priced plastic model for X-mas, made by a Czechoslovakian company called Mehano, when I was 8 years old. My first model of a steam locomotive. Barely able to pull itself around the track, but still my favorite until it de-railed, dropped 4' to the floor and grenaded into tiny bits of plastic shrapnel. I have a few kit and off the shelf versions of them in HO scale now, and have scratch built about 70% of one in brass (obviously not live steam though), but stopped working on it because at the time I didn't have a lathe to make the cylinders and wheels. Now I just have too many higher priorities for my at home and in-shop time.
One thing that bothers me about the version in the Kozo book - it has the wrong driving wheel centers for an A3, IMO. The A3 was built with segmented counter weights, whereas the Kozo book illustrates more "modern" crescent shaped counterweights. I doubt Pennsy ever put the new wheels on an ancient and tiny switch engine like the A3's (the later A-5 was built with them), but I may be incorrect as per the rule of exceptions. It still looks wrong to me on an nineteenth century locomotive with Stephenson valve gear and slide valves.
BTW - I've never had a problem filing curves into parts. Even when I was supposed to be filing flats.
This is hilarious. I have never seen such wood work.
A sheet of dead tree with rocks on it. Spat my water out haha.
Wood workers don't use reamers because there is no such thing as a round hole in wood. The anisotropic expansion of wood that happens with just regular variation in humidity (even in stabilized wood) means that a perfectly round hole will be out of round almost immediately and almost always.A twist drill gets you close enough to round that it works just as well in almost every possible scenario provided you use the right size twist drill.
Happy new year Quinn.
From a woodworker turned metalworker you're using your mill like a router. So give it some router bits. They're not expensive like metal bits tend to be. They can be got with 1/4" or 1/2" shanks so you usually only need a single collet. Get yourself a set each of round over and straight cut bits and most of your requirements will be covered. I'm not sure if there's a Busy Bee Tools outlet where you now reside in Canada but they'll be able to outfit you with what you'd need.
Greetings from Canada's banana belt.
👍❄️🇨🇦🍌🥋🕊️🇺🇦🤞
Boilers are a fascinating topic. There are a LOT of versions. Drachinifel did a really great video on the evolution of Navel boilers. A lot of the same concepts, although generally in more stressed applications. The "fire tubes" eventually switched to holding the water, smaller tubes being more efficient to transfer the heat to the water. High pressure boilers would be running north of 800 degree steam. But...please don't build one like that, it's a bomb that wants to kill you.
also, annealing non-ferrous metals works fine with a quench, if you use a pickle it will even pull a lot of the surface crud from the torch off. Of course, I work in jewelry, not boilers, so you may have a good reason not to do this.
Naval boiler. A navel boiler would be something else😂
Absolutely awesome!!! You are an inspiration. Love how you even show blunders and how to recover from them. Keep up the great work. I look forward to your videos each week.
As a amateur mechanic/car builder I am currently making the ash wood frame for my Riley car project. I am an even more amateur woodworker but luckily the frame isn't that complex really. Coachbuilding a 20s car though is somewhat of a lost art. Not much info out there on it. My best reference is a book from 1924! I seem to be getting there OK but the saw dust/sanding dust is dreadful! I do have some extraction but even then it gets everywhere. I now try to do most of my sanding outside (I do the same with metal grinding). The frame is then paneled in aluminium. That also comes half hard so you anneal it then it re-hardens when you hammer the edges around the frame.
Quinn , its always amazes me how you can take a complicated part and break it down to simple steps ...
That was amazing. You made it look so easy but I know you put lots of thought into it. Your experience of making jigs and fixtures paid off handsomely here and you produced some beautiful, precision parts. Good job! I'm a hobbyist woodworker; I got a chuckle out of your description of sandpaper.
I like your drill press vise. That could capture most of the items you need to hold on to, especially grabby material like brass and copper. Those metalformed parts look great.
Yes, I know. I always say the same thing.
Nicely done!
But it IS always nicely done.
Thanks, and Meow to Sprocket.
Happy New Year!
Yay!
Woo hoo!
The only reamers that we use in woodworking are tapered reamers for making tapered holes to accept chair legs, at least as far as I can think of.
Wow! Blondiehaks turning wood on the lathe. It's the first step to the dark side. Next we will be watching the boiler baseboard with breadboard ends, and hand cut dovetails. Your content has been great, keep up the good work.
very best for 2023 to all. nice forming Quinn :-)
Loving this build so far!
I always water quenched the copper heads gaskets on my motorbikes back in the day and many old engines today as needed, but there isn't any precision needed with them beyond keeping sufficient and uniform thickness. Only reason I water quench is to use the bit straight away, sure can't quench harden pure copper but you can certainly do it unevenly or burn it by getting too carried away with the flame... I'm certain there is a big difference when trying to manufacture precision parts and I'm also pretty sure Quinn is all over the methodology.
Happy new year Quinn! Here's to a steamy 2023! ^^
As a woodturner, I will never be able to look at dead trees and paper with rocks glued to it in the same way.
All I can say is WOW!
This is very cool, I have built a couple of (low pressure) boilers, nut nothing as precise as this. Well done!
I absolutely love your videos, it's also so fascinating to see all the tools and accessories that you built yourself in previous series. It's like a little game, as I observe your fixtures and setups and suddenly notice "Oh, I remember how she built that ^^"
Thank you for doing such an amazing work and being an inspiration, I wish you all the best luck in new year, and definitely looking forward for locomotive build
Loving this series.
excited to see the soldering!
I have worked with cabinet shops and installers for over 30 yrs, I won't say what industry.
But, yes I have seen reamers used to true up a drilled hole and improve the fit.
fascinating video! I can't wait to watch the rest of this series! Also, thank you for including the highly technical details. It gives us mere mortals a good feel for how complicated this project is!
I'm really enjoying this project and look forward to the future episodes! Have a happy new year!