MANY skippers do NOT know about the Rules that apply INSIDE the ZONE, After having Rounded and left the Mark - there are Rules that still apply even though the mark has been Rounded - the ROW boat must sail True Course towards the next mark and any boat leeward cannot push ROW boat above Close hauled UNTIL after Leaving the ZONE ... A Video on The ZONE would be a great contribution, showing ALL scenereo conditions - Everyone gets focus on Mark Room, but that ends when mark is no longer in play after leaving the mark, but still in the ZONE which still exists 4 boat lengths after the Mark outbound towards the next mark on the course. .... - GC/QLD AUS
Here's a response from our rules expert... "without knowing which scenario you are referring to it is difficult to answer. However a boat is fetching a mark 'when she is in a position to pass to windward of it and leave it on the required side without changing tack.' therefore if there is no need to tack to round the mark then you are fetching it"
I am confused whether or not there is a situation whereby an inside boat having established an overlap at a mark rounding can extend the course forcing a windward boat past the mark or is obligated to round the mark in normal course.
there were at least 3 instances where a decision was required but I am no wiser as to which boat if either was in the wrong. It didn't even make clear who was in the right in the Nutmeg V Spindrift case! the series was very good but there were too many instances where the situation was so finely balanced that it was not clear who was actually in the right! perhaps you would clarify who in your opinon was in the right in each of the contested situations.
Hi Jonathan, the Nutmeg case was simplified to show the principle. Happy to set out the full decision from the case for your benefit (see below - as you can see it is a bit wordy for a presentation!). For the other scenarios, they were designed to get you to think about the possibilites. But in the port-hand rounding one, for me Blue broke 18.3. For the starboard-rounding one, it is likely a port-starboard with port not keeping clear (but it was more finely balanced). RYA 2002/15 SUMMARY OF THE FACTS Nutmeg was disqualified in her absence for taking room at a mark to which she was not entitled. Her appeal on procedural grounds was upheld and the protest against her by Spindrift was returned for a new hearing. In its observations, the protest committee had stated that even if Nutmeg believed that she had an inside overlap when the zone was entered, the hail of ‘No water’ from Spindrift could be taken as making Nutmeg have reasonable doubt that she had obtained an overlap in time, for the purposes of rule 18.2(e). Nutmeg should therefore have pulled out of the challenge for room, which would have avoided the collision, and then protested Spindrift. On this point, the RYA commented as follows: DECISION The protest committee was incorrect to say that a dispute at the time of the incident as to whether an overlap had been established meant the automatic operation of rule 18.2(e). Disagreements of this nature are commonplace, with each boat firmly believing herself to be in the right. Rule 18.2(e) puts no additional obligation on a boat when her claim for room is denied. As the hearing was undefended, the protest should have been dismissed if the protestor's evidence did not satisfy the protest committee that the protestee broke a rule. The rule is an aid to the protest committee when evidence given by all parties at the hearing is inconclusive. Spindrift v Nutmeg, Pembrokeshire YC
@@napierjon thanks most helpful. I will look at it all over again until my head hurts! I certainly think it helpful to get people to think about it but then there is the danger they might doubt their own thought process & I think it is helpful for you as the presenter to come down on one side or the other with reasons of course. Thanks anyway for your prompt reply. I have learnt a lot over the series even though I have been sailing & Racing for nearly 60 years! it is easy to think you know it & there is always more to learn!
Do I take it if you hit a mark while racing, you must take a penalty as soon as possible ( Racing Rule 31 ). While doing your One-Turn Penalty, you must stay clear of all other boats. So do i take it in a large fleet racing at the first windward mark and a short reach to a spreed mark you do not need to take a penalty until you are on the run and can get well clear of all the other boats? This would be a problem with100+ boats going around the same winward mark at the end of a beat. What is soon as possible?
MANY skippers do NOT know about the Rules that apply INSIDE the ZONE, After having Rounded and left the Mark - there are Rules that still apply even though the mark has been Rounded - the ROW boat must sail True Course towards the next mark and any boat leeward cannot push ROW boat above Close hauled UNTIL after Leaving the ZONE ... A Video on The ZONE would be a great contribution, showing ALL scenereo conditions - Everyone gets focus on Mark Room, but that ends when mark is no longer in play after leaving the mark, but still in the ZONE which still exists 4 boat lengths after the Mark outbound towards the next mark on the course. .... - GC/QLD AUS
Thank you for a great series.
Very good. It would be great to have the second series focused on the cases!
Flixzone is a scam. Be careful with comments from scammers...
Yellow looks like it is fetching the mark. No tack needed to round the mark on port. Right?
Here's a response from our rules expert... "without knowing which scenario you are referring to it is difficult to answer. However a boat is fetching a mark 'when she is in a position to pass to windward of it and leave it on the required side without changing tack.' therefore if there is no need to tack to round the mark then you are fetching it"
I am confused whether or not there is a situation whereby an inside boat having established an overlap at a mark rounding can extend the course forcing a windward boat past the mark or is obligated to round the mark in normal course.
there were at least 3 instances where a decision was required but I am no wiser as to which boat if either was in the wrong. It didn't even make clear who was in the right in the Nutmeg V Spindrift case! the series was very good but there were too many instances where the situation was so finely balanced that it was not clear who was actually in the right! perhaps you would clarify who in your opinon was in the right in each of the contested situations.
Hi Jonathan, the Nutmeg case was simplified to show the principle. Happy to set out the full decision from the case for your benefit (see below - as you can see it is a bit wordy for a presentation!). For the other scenarios, they were designed to get you to think about the possibilites. But in the port-hand rounding one, for me Blue broke 18.3. For the starboard-rounding one, it is likely a port-starboard with port not keeping clear (but it was more finely balanced).
RYA 2002/15
SUMMARY OF THE FACTS
Nutmeg was disqualified in her absence for taking room at a mark to which she was not entitled. Her appeal on procedural grounds was upheld and the protest against her by Spindrift was returned for a new hearing. In its observations, the protest committee had stated that even if Nutmeg believed that she had an inside overlap when the zone was entered, the hail of ‘No water’ from Spindrift could be taken as making Nutmeg have reasonable doubt that she had obtained an overlap in time, for the purposes of rule 18.2(e). Nutmeg should therefore have pulled out of the challenge for room, which would have avoided the collision, and then protested Spindrift. On this point, the RYA commented as follows:
DECISION
The protest committee was incorrect to say that a dispute at the time of the incident as to whether an overlap had been established meant the automatic operation of rule 18.2(e). Disagreements of this nature are commonplace, with each boat firmly believing herself to be in the right. Rule 18.2(e) puts no additional obligation on a boat when her claim for room is denied. As the hearing was undefended, the protest should have been dismissed if the protestor's evidence did not satisfy the protest committee that the protestee broke a rule. The rule is an aid to the protest committee when evidence given by all parties at the hearing is inconclusive.
Spindrift v Nutmeg, Pembrokeshire YC
@@napierjon thanks most helpful. I will look at it all over again until my head hurts! I certainly think it helpful to get people to think about it but then there is the danger they might doubt their own thought process & I think it is helpful for you as the presenter to come down on one side or the other with reasons of course. Thanks anyway for your prompt reply. I have learnt a lot over the series even though I have been sailing & Racing for nearly 60 years! it is easy to think you know it & there is always more to learn!
Do I take it if you hit a mark while racing, you must take a penalty as soon as possible ( Racing Rule 31 ). While doing your One-Turn Penalty, you must stay clear of all other boats. So do i take it in a large fleet racing at the first windward mark and a short reach to a spreed mark you do not need to take a penalty until you are on the run and can get well clear of all the other boats? This would be a problem with100+ boats going around the same winward mark at the end of a beat.
What is soon as possible?