In an Enterprise episode a member of a group of "Vulcans without Logic" mentioned that Surak had two parts to his program of dealing with emotion. The first was to bring emotion under control. The second was to re-integrate it into the Vulcan psyche so that they could again have emotions but under control. But the Vulcans only completed the first part and not even then. They merely suppressed emotions deeper in their psyche, so that in either old age or illness when their iron control faltered, emotions would come boiling up again as shown in the Next Generation episode when Sarek was both old and ill and his emotions kept resurfacing.
Yeah and this is the issue I take with Vulcan's depiction in Star Trek series. I wanted more dissenting Vulcans. I wanted to see someone like Tuvok, grow into something more then the sum of his Human and Vulcan parts. The Data arc for example, showing how he had emotional attachments and experienced emotion, even though he couldn't feel it. Imagine having a Vulcan around who studied data for example, searching maybe for logical explanations for some of his actions and coming up short, leading him t.other conclusions about things. A man can dream I suppose.
@@xX_Gravity_Xx I would like to see the effects of the Romulan Diaspora on the Vulcans. Hopefully the the two will start to commingle again, learning from each other, including how to accept emotions. It could be a win-win situation - the Vulcans accept emotions again, and the Romulans learn ways of controlling the emotions.
Vulcans: We're ruled by raging emotions, so let's just repress it all and we'll be fine!" Me (a sarcastic psychologist): Oh, that'll end well... The amount of mental illness on Vulcan must be incredible. I could see that as being Vulcan's dirty little secret...half the population is barely functional because of crippling maladaptations while the other half blames them for it because they use arrogance as a coping mechanism.
I always thought the same thing as well, they don't really go that far in the past with Vulcans so perhaps this is plausible, because they do say that these alien races in Star Trek are thousands of years old, we know that Lord OF the Rings is based apon Pre Medieval or Medieval earth kinda why they call it " Middle Earth" and there is no known content regarding the future of Middle Earth and what happens after LOTR so my theory is that the blank gap of both Vulcans and LOTR are linked, meaning that at some point in the future of Middle Earth, aliens came to colonize and wars happened which gave the creatures of Middle earth technology to start out with, like Particle weapons, lasers or projectile weapons and or lead them to develop their own maybe, and what if this Middle Earth was another planet similar to earth but the humans, elves and dwarves was all from Earth and was taken to this planet later called Middle Earth to repopulate? or what if humans came from this planet by an ancient alien race that created the humans? And later on in the future, the race that stayed on Middle Earth was only the elves and they developed science and technology and what if the Orcs became the Klingons? Humans well obviously lived on Earth and we know the rest on that, and what if the dwarves became the Tellerites? this actually makes a lot of sense because the Tellerites are dwarf like, Klingons are ORc like, Vulcans/Romulans are Elve like, so what if Middle earth after all the other races left and colonized other planets, became known as Vulcan? This would be one of the best bridges for the gaps.
A Vulcan scientist will explore all logical avenues. If they can't find a way to accomplish the goal, they declare, "It can't be done." A human scientist will likewise explore all logical avenues. But if they can't find a way to accomplish the goal, they will begin exploring illogical avenues. When the Vulcan scientist says, "What are you doing? This can't be done." The human will respond with, "We'll find a way to get it done. If we have to explore illogical avenues to accomplish the goal, then so be it." Vulcan scientist: "You people are insane." To which the human would say, "Guilty as charged. But we will get this done one way or the other." We humans are a stubborn lot.
Damn right skippy we're insane and illogical and I'm proud to be as so lol - The thing I can't figure out is why stuff like alternate timelines, time travel, other universes, etc. are illogical - Science demonstrates their evidence though. Maybe it doesn't make sense for it to exist but my dog licking his balls doesn't make sense to me either - but He does it haha
@@dragonprinceHP It makes sense, just as your dog licking his testicles make sense. You and I don't see the sense (we can't, the universe is just too complicated for our little minds). But there is a sense in it even though we can't see it. Same as with the dog licking his testicles. It is probably for cleanliness, but then I don't know for sure. All I do know is that canine (dog) saliva is one of the best and cleanest antiseptics ever seen.
True, but Spock has identified these two traits during his tenure in Star Fleet. He rejected the Kolinar achievement. Hence, during the rest of his life, he accepted being a person of two worlds and his status on Vulcan, Earth, Romulus, and throughout the Federation is venerated and possibly on a status with Surak. Spock is a legend, to say the least. An honor Spock would sidestep and give the credit to his "frends" that Vulcan logic has a new methodology to consider.
I always wished they had done a sort of "prequel" series, or at least epic miniseries, about the Vulcan time of Reformation--especially back when Bruce Gray was still alive. He was quite compelling in his limited appearances as Surak. Start with their civil wars, and end a little after the Vulcan "separatists" leave to eventually become the Romulans.
Yes. I've always wanted to see this depicted on the show. This period in Vulcan's history is fascinating to me. I wish something similar could happen on Earth.
the eugenics wars in mid90s would have been a better arc, it would hve been like the starwars prequels. we all kno anakin becomes vader, same as we all know khan left earth on the botany bay… we could watch the early years of the augments on earth.
to be honest the star trek lore is great, we should have an athology series… 3 episode arcs telling a singular or combined story…. for example we could have a three episode arc on the first orb given to bajor,,,, or something about the klingons, something set in a world befoe khalas was around? or something about vulcan pre surak times… for example the discovery that they could do things via touch “the vulcan nerve pinch”…. or a three episode arc on the vulcan weapon shown in tng that would kill you for having bad thoughts… it was used in pre surak times on vulcan. these are just ideas… but picard in its current form and discovery arnt doing it for me
YESSSS!! I was thinking the same thing! They totally need to do that because it would be easier to understand them, and how they should do it is by making it one of those " Watch it before you watch the first movie" type deals kinda like how u would with Star Wars, Watch Episode 1, Ep.2, Clone wars, Ep.3, Rogue One, Han Solo, Ep.4, Ep.5, Ep.6, Mandalorian, Ep.7 etc. Only with a Vulcan show about how they evolved from War like to current form, then u add a series on how Romulans first started out to when they were at the beginning of the Federation era, then watch Enterprise, Discovery, Original Series, TNG, DS9, Voyager etc. Put everything in order for the timeline and actually show the evolution thru the series leading up.
For all we know, the "atomic wars" which devastated planet Vulcan were caused by Vulcans trying to prevent Romulans from leaving. Or caused by Romulans trying to prevent Vulcans from following.
Dr. McCoy : Spock, how can you be so sure the Intrepid was destroyed? Mr. Spock : I sensed it die. Dr. McCoy : But I thought you had to be in physical contact with a subject before... Mr. Spock : Doctor, even I, a half-Vulcan, could hear the death scream of four hundred Vulcan minds crying out over the distance between us. Dr. McCoy : Not even a Vulcan could feel a starship die. Mr. Spock : Call it a deep understanding of the way things happen to Vulcans, but I know that not a person, not even the computers on board the Intrepid, knew what was killing them or would have understood it had they known. Dr. McCoy : But, 400 Vulcans? Mr. Spock : I've noticed that about your people, Doctor. You find it easier to understand the death of one than the death of a million. You speak about the objective hardness of the Vulcan heart, yet how little room there seems to be in yours. Dr. McCoy : Suffer the death of thy neighbour, eh, Spock? Now, you wouldn't wish that on us, would you? Mr. Spock : It might have rendered your history a bit less bloody.
Cool vid. Maybe I'm a Romantic, but I always thought Vulcans were trying to protect us and steer us away from out most basal desires, especially after WW3. The Vulcans went through this before we did.
This was a good one! Very enlightening of the origins, and the Barbaric, and emotionally driven Vulcan history that nearly destroyed them and the splintering of Anti-Surak people who "Marched Beneath the Raptor's Wings"; who would become the Romulans. Great breakdown and analysis!
In STTMP Spock admitted that logic was an interference with abstract thought. He not only stated that a warm handshake to a pure logically based being was irrational and and added nothing to to their existence but also pure logic stopped someone from thinking about alternative universes or other dimensions. Something logic could not prove. That is why VGER wanted to meld with its creator. It needed a human touch.
Just found your channel today while looking for information on early vulcans and then you released a video about it just after I finished your old video on ancient races. Perfect timing
Hmm, that would greatly explain why the Vulcans were so distrustful of humans moving into the interstellar group and later (for example the episode of ds9 where the crew played the Vulcans at baseball and others), they truly believe that humans aren't ready and believe that much like them they'll end up destroying themselves and when the burn happened believed they saw it happening, further Vulcans aren't as unemotional as they would like to project, they control it in such a way to make it appear as though they are but an emotionless species isn't so suspicious and suspicion can be a highly emotional state, they're also often irritated, jealous, fastidious, irrational, smug, Superior, condescending, and believe they're better than all or most other species, oh sure they hide it under a pretty veneer that makes them appear emotionless on the surface, but I don't think for a minute but they are halfway as secure as they believed themselves to be which would also makes them insecure another highly emotional state.
The thing about Vulcans seems to be that they do not lack emotion. They seem, in fact, to be incredibly emotional beings. So much so that their emotions can completely rule their behavior absent great effort and psychological training. The Vulcans are engaging in a kind of shared social delusion, and Spock himself was a near perfect example of it. This is probably because he felt that he had something to prove. It is just a shame that Christine Chapel never benefited from his eventual awakening.
To quote Spock if I remember correctly “Logic is the beginning of wisdom not the end of it” or something like that. Vulcan logic can sometimes be too dogmatic and inflexible and this is correctly shown in T’Pol’s position denying time travel.
I certainly agree that Vulcan dogma did much to hold them back. I might also explain the Vulcan's slow recovery to a desert planet having a low population, with a nuclear war being all the more damaging and long lasting. Further, with that in mind, the Romulans, rather than being losers slinking off, might have been the winners who abandoned a devastated and maybe seemingly dying planet? Also, the Vulcans are going to be worried about the maintenance of logic in their culture. The fear of far flung colonies experiencing social drift might have also contributed to why they were slow to return to space, and also why they didn't plant colonies with nearly the fervor that earth immediately began doing.
@@user-nf9xc7ww7m Hard to say, in that would have changed Vulcan culture and probably their evolution as well. Assuming that they did evolve on Vulcan to some degree or another, and not planted there by Sargon's people. Presumably, the hard environment and the Vulcan natural tempestuous emotions went hand in hand in making Vulcans very violent. Presumably, they would have been different in a kinder environment. However, in the Star Trek setting, there almost seems to be a 'need' for a species to step before the brink of extinction so as to truly unify and take steps never to risk everything in a war. Doubtlessly there are many exceptions, but of the four founding members of the Federation, Humans, Tellarites and, of course, Vulcans brushed up with potential extinction or were on that road. The exception, the Andorians, might have avoided that due to Vulcan's making first contact with them, before they invented their own Prime Directive. So, a good chance would exist for the Vulcans to have gone to a dangerous suicidal war anyway, even if Vulcan was a greener place. A greater population might have paradoxically made extinction more likely with more nukes being used? Or else some sort of consensus of a greater population might have avoided such a war? If the proto-Romulans had left due to the planet seeming doomed, maybe they would have stuck around if the place was recoverable? We don't know if the Romulans left or thrown out. Generally, I wouldn't think that a devastated world would use precious resources so as to exile their losing side? All things otherwise being the same, a greener planet would have allowed the Vulcans to recover faster from the war.
Are the older Star Trek novels considered canon? If so, what about the 1988 novel 'Spock's World' by Diane Duane? That novel contains a great deal of Vulcan history from their stone age up to the fiction universe 'present', incorporated as a series of flashback interludes in between the main storyline of the novel.
Speaking about the question why it took the Vulcans half a millennia to rejoin the interstellar community: I think one should also consider the prolonged age of Vulcans (compared to humans). For Vulcans 1500 years is like 700 years for the 23rd century human, or perhaps something about 300 or 400 years for the Contemporary humans. You can compare it do the Middle Ages: we ourselves have recovered from it for almost a millennia during that time. So their technological progress is slower as is their biological life (again, compared to humans).
@@hectornonayurbusiness2631 Well, in Europe there was a huge regress when it came to economy and "globalization". Tbh, I'm not so sure that the term Middle Ages has any meaning outside of Europe. Anyway, once unified world, under Roman rule, was splintered into hundreds of tiny fractions that competed with each other and could barely compete with outside world. It wasn't until renaissance that it started to turn around.
Vulcans are related to Sargon's people as Vulcans store Katras as did his people. Sargon's race is sometimes assumed to be the preservers that may have brought Miramani and her people to their planet, and possibly the Mintakans to their planet.
I'd imagine the Mintakans were descendants of Sargon's people same as the Vulcans. The different levels of cultural development between the two could be an indication of their relative distance from Sargon's planet and, possibly, that the colony ships weren't warp capable and carried their ancestors there in cryogenic stasis at sublight speeds.
"Spock's World" did a wonderful job summarizing Vulcan history, although some might complain that the writer made them a little too earth-like up to a point.
Excellent video on Vulcans /Spock's origin. However no origin of Spock could be complete without revealing Gene Roddenberry's. Heavy influence of the original Outer Limits episode "Keeper Of The Purple Twilight". In This episode there is a alien character named "Ikar" who has all of Spock's traits , he has no emotions, the ability to read minds and super human strength.
I believe my illustrator dad designed the Spock Vulcan look on the cover of the AMAZING STORIES sci-fi magazine. My dad used himself as a model for vulcans look. I resembled my dad and was called Spock in my HS years.
What I have been able to piece together with it is that the Vulcans and most likely other vulcanoid peoples shared a common ancestry with the Sargonians, with most likely a few groups of them settling on the planets and intermingling with the native humanoids creating related hybrid species, with the Sargonians as the link that makes all these races related. As well to explain the Sargonian's look, I am inclined to believe that they were the first vulcanoids, since the vulcanoid traits are very dominant. Even after diluting with the mixing of the planet's native populations, I can still see that the vulcanoid traits might have been able to show through. It seems like a good explanation to say the least.
There are many universes and it's like the Vulcan's are an offshoot of the Eldar 40,000 years in the future of a galaxy that only knows war. There was an incident involving spore space and the guardian of forever that crash landed an Eldar hive ship on Vulcan and this is where they came from
"spock's world" also says it's possible the "Preservers" brought the first proto-Vulcanoids to vulcan Which if I remember correctly are depicted as neolithic In the earliest depicted parts of the book or possibly even pre-Language but I'd need to check
I think you have a great way of sharing your thoughts on this topic, I think all FANS have opinions BUT YOU DID THE RESEARCH I didn't and I find what you have shared to be informative. I thank you.
Love ❤️ your theories. Be nice to have had a name of an ancient Romulan who opposed Surak or differed. In Enterprise T’Pol uses the crazy Vulcan “without logic” as reason for why Vulcans adhere to Surak’s teachings. Yet, most if not all the crew were decent as they come like Trip’s friend.
Fantastic video! I wonder if the Romulans were the ones had had a Socrates? Maybe they took him with them? All jokes aside though, is it possible that part of the tension between early Romulans and Vulcans, was due to this idea of a rigid logic hindering growth? Or maybe the Romulans just liked their emotions, I don't know.
Ironicaly the Vulcans are so busy controling their Emotions, that they are controled by them again. They organised their whole lifes aroud them after all.🖖
I rather expect that the Romulans may have ended up having an Aristotle, or a series thereof. And no doubt, he was / they were a mentor and advisor to many of the early Praetors - much like Aristotle was a mentor to Alexander the Great. Of course by implication, that’s still styling the Romulans as far more colourful and multi-cultured than we actually see them as being. One could more likely suppose that early Praetors or whatever rulers there were in Romulan society at the time may have been more like the Medici family, and that their greatest philosopher(s) were more like Machiavelli.
I know it's all fiction, but thematically, the first season has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the rest of the series. Inspite of what you think, the Vulcans were one of the strongest, and toughest races in series. With a mere flick of the fingers, they could send a person flying. The Klingons were weaselly little liars, sort of like Ferengi, but worst. How the Klingons went from cowering dogs, to bad asses I don't know. The first show is it's own beast.
Did you consider the Proto-Vulcan society in the episode Who Watches the Watchers as a possible link to older civilizations that may have seeded Vulcans on other planets?
@@OrangeRiver Also if I am not mistaken the Star Fleet Battles board game from the 1970s had race origins for Star Trek species. While no longer canon these came from the original writers. Can't remember what they said but I am sure this is archived somewhere.
I always thought of the minitkans as just an example of parallel evolution. TOS had a few examples of parallel evolved humans. One even had a Roman empire, and another a United States of America. They even had a name for some theory that was suppose to explain how two planets could develop so similarly, one surely boosted after finding that huminod evolution had been encoded into early life galaxy wide by the early humanoids. But I suppose this could have come from the perservers too. But the way the minitkans were talked about it just seemed more like parallel evolution.
02:03 "astro biologist" is really odd...in that she's wearing red. That really should be a blue uniform. Of course the original series tended to be fast and loose with their own rules.
I agree logic of that nature is very useful as a point of reflection and i would say there are people who try there best to think live and do things as humans in a similar manner however unlike star trek haven't lucked into a organization like the federation because of obvious limits that prevent it from happening.
@@frankcabanski9409 thats a really basic way of looking at logic the choices by how they did everything was mostly emotional and not very logical unlike Vulcans very different ways of thinking.
@@frankcabanski9409 you contradict without fact which is an emotional response. emotional thinking is what Vulcans clearly avoided as we know them... Misusing and taking ideas from others and transforming them to be some sort of fanatical brainwash of bad ideas and half cooked ideas is not at all logical its all emotional... Nazi's avoid facts even used a symbol of peace flags all while invading nations that did not want them to invade it was far more logical what was done to stop them. They are nothing like Vulcans nor are they at all logical when you really understand why there idea are so obviously wrong and also illogical. The unfair treaties that caused ww2 also a sign of the lack of logic of the era because it lacked any sense in preventing war and was seriously damaging to culture of Germany allowing fanatical figures to attain power as they did in not just Germany but in many places and politics like it is sadly still in use in many policy's today.. We are all humans and to abuse anything for even being sub human is wrong we have laws preventing even abuse pets in such ways as the nazi did to people not because what anything they thought was logical the burn books that disagreed with them because they would be able to self scrutinize as a logical person must do to retain a real sense of logic and at the time even that level of logic wasn't mainstream as i suggested. Superior itself is a idea that liken itself to perfection which is an ideal not real logic.. Its more like the borg which have used an idealism to create there identity making a serious flaw in logic.
@@henrybleisch9025 Using deception is merely immoral; it is actually quite a logical way for an amoral individual to achieve their goals. Morality is an emotional consideration, not a logical one.
Very well researched material. SciFi is important to our developement. Good or bad futures within these shows can inform us in the now. What we should be careful with and watch out for.
I would love someone to create a show that would explain how the Vulcans become who they are. Starting with their barbaric society and evolve into what they are now. I think J.J. Abrams would do a great job with it! This may not be a popular opinion but it's just a thought.
Just IMHO of course, but I think J.J. Abrams would be a horrible choice. His Star Trek ... wasn't the worst thing ever, but neither was it very good. Also Abrams is very action oriented. Personally I'd like to see a return to more cerebral star trek. Sure, action sequences have always been part of trek, but they were always bracketed with discussions and debate and contemplation of the problems, possible actions, and consequences. Something I believe you'd need a lot of to do an anthology-like series on valcan history.
@@PresleyPerswain I personally really liked the JJ Star Trek films and of course understand that they didn't favor some audiences. And this is just a casual debate nothing to undermine anyones opinion. With that said, there are several reference to Vulcans' being a very barbaric race more so than humans before the time of Surak. Because of the references to Vulcan barbarism I think JJ would be a great choice to display how barbaric they were and show the progression of the Vulcan race and even how the Romulans split off from the Vulcans'. I'm not saying that he is the best choice just someone to consider out of the plethora of other directors. I also took in consideration the show "LOST" which he created along side Jeffery Lieber and Damon Lindelo. It was a very successful show with lots of action, debate, contemplation of reality, as well as showing the consequences of actions.
@@tedalexander6592 of course your allowed your opinion. I wasn't trying to say 'you're wrong', just adding my own opinion. But i realize how CZcams comment sections often are, so i understand the defensiveness. And, hey, I could be totally wrong and Abrams might make for an excellent director for such a project. Who knows?
I’ll admit I’m still quite skeptical but I can see where this is coming from. As I said I’m still skeptical and I’ll need a little more evidence to convince me but this was a great video with a great topic
1500 years to rebuild and travel to stars from the 4th century to the 19th century for the Vulcans vs 88 years from 2063 to 2151 for humans is a huge giant gap it’s not even close. Seems like the Vulcans are cautious and risk averse were as humans are risk takers. that’s like us taking from the mid 21st century until the 26th century to rebuild and Start exploring witch way way way way beyond ridiculous 88 years is long enough witch is all ready bordering on ridiculous
I remember reading in a star trek novel (I can't remember which one) that the Vulcans were once a barbaric race. When they first started the reformation of becoming a race based on logic over emotion, not all Vulcans took that path. Either by exile, or leaving on their own, those Vulcans took to the stars to continue their emotional evolution elsewhere. As time passed, this migrant group split, once again, into two groups. One evolved as the Klingons, the barbaric, emotional warrior-type, the other became the Romulans, the less emotional, more ruthless and technically driven-type. This explains their similar appearance to the Vulcans, especially in TOS.
Except that both Vulcans and Romulans can interbreed quite easily with humans as well as with each other. All three are therefore the same species and there is just no biological manner of arguing about that. So the question has never been, where did the Romulans originate, but rather, where did the humans originate?
I think its probable a pre-vulcanoid race had been to many planets. This is evident from not only the other planets we see with proto-vulcan ancestory (Mintakens come to mind). I have a feeling its most likely the first pre-vulcan race and earth (or whomever seeded earth) were evolved independently but with very similar humanoid dna instructions. There is also evidence perhaps for Betazoids, Remans, Rigelians, and probably some more im missing.
@@velnz5475 Actually, the whole premise is ridiculous. You might recall that human blood is red because it is iron based while Vulcan and Romulan blood is green because it is copper based. This would indicate entirely different evolutionary paths over a very long span of time. It is impossible for Vulcans, Romulans and humans to be closely related enough to permit them to breed with one another. Roddenberry really did not think this one through.
In one of the Star Trek novels I read, many years ago, there was reference to a telepathic intelligence in the Vulcan desert. A singular entity. I have not heard any further discussion beyond that. Have you read anything on that?
I'd have preferred it if the Vulcans were the offshoots: wouldn't it be just like a group of true believers in a stern philosophical system to settle a harsh world 0.) to temper and test themselves and 1.) to 'prove' that their beliefs made them strong enough to handle living there?
This sounds exactly like Salusa Secundus, the home planet of the Sardaukar from Dune, formerly known as Corrin (the planet surface had been utterly devasted by war. Even after 10,000 years it has yet to recover). When Duke Leto and Thufir Hawat were discussing the Fremen and their potential as allies Thufir points out the similarities between them: harsh environment to thin out the weaklings, leaving only the strongest; the creed both cultures are taught from infancy, that they are the Chosen ones. All their suffering and struggle has made them tough, made them one. Excellent source of fanatic followers. Also when Baron Harkonnen and Count Hasimir Fenring are speaking in the cone of silence the Baron casually mentions setting up a training program for his soldiers on Arrakis similar to the Emperor's Sardaukar training program and Count Fenring goes on full alert, discouraging any and all steps in this direction. I wonder if the Middle East region and culture has any resemblance to this type of training program?
Vulcans more iconic? Ha! That's an understatement. I'm a fantasy writer and I can tell you that SF/fantasy is not as easy as many will have you believe. So when ST came up with the Vulcans, it was the sci-fi equivalent to winning the lottery. The vast amount of Hollywood sci-fi is brain-dead, starved for science or logic, and yet the ST Vulcans give you instant cred just by their existence. BTW, I thought _Spock's World_ was accepted canon. And I thought you weren't allowed to publish a ST-themed book without it being approved, i.e., it must not break canon.
I could have sworn original series mentioned how it was a coalition including humans and Vulcans who invented warp travel. Sure that got retconned quite quickly after even the most unscientific realized that it was impossible to have interstellar Vulcans and Romulans without FTL. But it is something, right?
TOS had an episode where the Enterprise found Zehren Cocheran (sp?) being kept alive by some alien. There he was described as the inventor of warp drive and 'of Alpha Centuri.' Which lead many to assume he was a native Alpha Centurian (in other words not human). I think that was Rodenberry's intention, but TNG:FC retconed him to be human and from Earth. So why 'of Alpha Centuri'? Well, think Laurence of Arabia. You don't have to be from somewhere to be associated with that place. Maybe he campaigned really hard to set up humanities' first (edit: interstellar) colony there, and was among the first colonists there. Maybe he was elected leader there. Who knows, but the title can still work.
Oh, and romulans and vulcans still split over 1500 years before vulcans developed warp. They could have used STL generation ships, but romulous seems rather far away, so yea, that doesn't make much sense to me, but until it's retconed that's what's canon.
A bit of the history/theroy of the Vulcan people being seeded is talked about in The book “yesterdays son” involves spock learning of a son he fathered when thrown back in in the stone age with Zarabeth "TOS - All Our Yesterdays" by the ??librabrian or custodian?? I forget. Then going back for him again in the sequel “time for yesterday” to fix the guardian of forever
I've always assumed that 'logical' is an inadequate translation of a term meaning 'logical' but also 'socially acceptable', 'customary', and 'ritually clean".
I haven't been able to find definitive proof that this was the case, apparently it was suggested in a StarTrek.com article. But it would explain some things!
Chances are high, just as did many Terran Earth cultures, the name the people of Vulcan call themselves may be way different. "Vulcan" is likely Federation Standard for that name, in my opinion. What do "The People of This Place" call themselves?
It could also just be a case of "anglicizing" the name, just as the officials on Liberty Island did when they couldn't spell an immigrant's name during the 19th & early 20th centuries. There was a ST novel where the Romulans actually referred to their home planet as, "Rhiansu" (sic), and not, "Romulus". I'm sorry that I can't remember the name of the book, it was 12 or more years since I read the novel. I'm not as immersed in the many cultures of Star Trek as I could be, my interests generally lay in the technological aspects of all of the series, so delving further into the many species, their cultures, and histories were never a priority for me. But I really enjoyed this presentation on the history of Vulcans, and I look forward to learning more of the histories of all that inhabit the galaxy of Star Trek.
ni var is the vulcan home world name according memory alpha if your going by memory beta sources which is non cannon then its T'Khasi, Minshara or Ti-Valka'ain.
Re: Vulcan Emotion I’ve always interpreted the Vulcan handling of their feelings as the need and desire for mastery of their emotions not suppression of them.
I want them to cover more than one episode of the mintakans, as far as omulan and vulcan societies go - i want to know what happened to their little cousins - did they ever rejoin the unification process or are they forever forgotten an doing their own thing or?
I like how you point out that logic can be used as a shield for preconceived biases and notions. Rationality is not some impartial, magic anti-bias tool, and the idea that any being can be 100% logical is just absolutely ridiculous to me. Putting aside the inherent neurological and psychological differences an alien species would have, anyone can logic themselves into believing anything.
The Vulcans are constantly shown to be ruled by their emotions with a mere veneer of "logic". It's kind of an irritating aspect of the franchise to me. I can't think of an episode where a logical Vulcan was correct when the intuitive human was wrong. Please correct me if I'm wrong as I'd love to watch it.
Commander Spock's actions in "Menagerie" are entirely ruled by his emotional ties to Captain Pike. He lies, he falsifies records, he assaults Starfleet personnel, he endangers the ship, the crew, both his and Captain Kirk's career...not to mention, risking the death penalty. All in an emotional desire to let Pike live out the remainder of his life in a hallucination. Spock is my favorite Star Trek character, but if you look back you'll see the writers' failure to really capture the logic that was supposed to drive him.
@@lilithdemonia74 That was the revamped pilot before anyone had even begun to define their culture much. It's just that I dislike when we're repeatedly told one thing, but what's shown on screen is very different.
@@lilithdemonia74 *Nods* As David Gerrold wrote in "The World of Star Trek," nothing about Spock's character, culture, history, or even planet of origin--much less the fact that he was half human--had been worked out when "The Menagerie" was produced, and even by the second pilot, "Where No Man Has Gone Before" (which took place largely on the uninhabited but resources-rich planet Delta Vega, "where even the ore ships only call every twenty years"), the details were still quite sketchy.
The information presented within this video is a good explanation of why the Vulcans were trying so hard to hold humans back. Vulcan experience would suggest that it would take many millennia for any species to venture out into space once faster than light travel has been perfected. Of course, the Vulcans were using there logic to justify their position, whether valid or not. Which is pointed out rather well in the video. Any possible position or opinion can be justified if argued, for or against, to the right people. The Vulcan logic seems more emotional than scientific when dealing with issues outside of their influence, or when their authority is challenged. All this makes for good stories when Vulcans are involved.
I have been a star trek fan since I was 5 and I watched it with my aunt. We were watching it once and Kirk called McCoy Bones and my aunt looked at me and said that's a perfect nickname for you, meaning Bones because I'm skinny
I'm not sure you can trust Vulcans as a reliable source for their history. Given Romulans basically showing that Vulcans could have lived with emotions its hard to believe any of their early history.
The Vulcan's belief that they caused The Burn would have been far better than what we got. Kelpan manlet: "Muh chicken nuggees! Reeeeeeeeee!" *dilithium explodes for no reason*
Did anyone actually watch the Original Star Trek? Spock talks about how Vulcans were Romulans. There was a split that created the Vulcans living by logic. That's it in nutshell.
@@DMSProduktions And how common are humans? I'm not even talking about bumpy nose humans like Bajorans, but literally identical in every single way as humans? Very. Calling a species vulcanoid doesn't carry the weight you seem to be implying, IMO. If anything, it's interesting how few we have seen in canon though.
It would make sense for humans and Vulcan to have a common ancestor, given the parentage of Spock. If they were entirely different species, it is doubtful that they could have procreated.
Have any of you heard of the "Kraith" series, a proposed history of the Vulcans, that Jacqueline Lichtenberg, Myrna Culbreath, and Sondra Marshak decades ago were discussing? I never saw anything in print. Each had written early Star Trek novels. Some of them also had edited Star Trek: New Voyages and a following, both anthologies of fan fiction.
It depends. We are assuming that there wasn't already at least some sort of genetic difference between the Vulcans and the Romulans before they left Vulcan. Its possible that ancient Vulcan somehow saw parallel evolution of various sub species on Vulcan. Romulans could be the Homo Sapiens to the Vulcan Neanderthals. Just because one destroyed the other on Earth doesn't mean it happened there. Couple that with a few centuries sailing the stars on primitive ships exposed to the effects of cosmic radiation, by the time they get to Romulus, significant genetic differences might already exist. Then, you might see Romulan interbreeding with Remans or a forgotten species residing on Romulus who were bred out of existance/wiped out. Or outright genetic modification to make people more suited to life on Romulus,and the genetic differences will emerge relatively quickly.
@@anthonycunningham8116 Those are some interesting ideas! Romulans having speciated before they even left Vulcan is something I hadn't considered before, but it would explain a lot. Interbreeding with the Remans is definitely possible too.
There is a fan theory that one of the unmentioned bad things Vulcans did in their evil past was genetic engineering - with pretty much the same consequences as on Earth. Consider that Vulcans are supposed to be unnaturally strong, long-lived and have strong mental abilities - unlike, say, the Romulans. So perhaps all the current Vulcans are the offspring of the "superior" (but also much more aggressive and unstable) modified species, who waged a war of extermination on their unimproved brethren. Romulans would then be the lucky few who managed to escape. This would explain a lot about the reticent and even dogmatic nature of the current Vulcans... they can't allow themselves to fall to the old ways, for a very good reason.
@@pestergaines so basically the Romulans are the original Vulcans who conducted genetic experiments gone wrong, and modern day Romulans are the few non augmented Vulcans who managed to escape.
@@OrangeRiver the bokeh definitely looks really nice, though I will say the plane of focus is just slightly too narrow, imo. It was subtle at the start of the video, but by the end, the parts of your body closer to the centre of frame had moved further back, as your torso became slightly tilted toward the camera on the left side of the frame. That’s started to become distracting for me. Though of course I understand that closing the aperture slightly to increase the plane of focus might have reduced your desired bokeh too much, since it’s all tradeoffs, and maybe you consciously took that tradeoff for the strong background separation. I do suspect you hadn’t intended to move your right shoulder toward the camera and your left away, since it was much more subtle at the beginning of the video. Though I also notice your right shoulder, on the left of the frame, doesn’t become defocussed the same way as your left shoulder, so even as it moved forward it was still within the plane of focus. Perhaps rather than an issue about the plane of focus’ depth, maybe you were just sat at the very back of the plane of focus and could have moved slightly forward? Obviously that’s dependent on your specific lens setup. Also, just to be clear, I’m trying to do photography shop talk, not intended to be a takedown or anything :) I know that can be ambiguous in text sometimes.
Which "Ancient Civilization" would you like to see me cover in a future video?
Borg
Q
The Ferengi, maybe?
Ferengi
Iconians, or the Progenitors!
These are all great ideas btw, guys
In an Enterprise episode a member of a group of "Vulcans without Logic" mentioned that Surak had two parts to his program of dealing with emotion. The first was to bring emotion under control. The second was to re-integrate it into the Vulcan psyche so that they could again have emotions but under control. But the Vulcans only completed the first part and not even then. They merely suppressed emotions deeper in their psyche, so that in either old age or illness when their iron control faltered, emotions would come boiling up again as shown in the Next Generation episode when Sarek was both old and ill and his emotions kept resurfacing.
Yeah and this is the issue I take with Vulcan's depiction in Star Trek series. I wanted more dissenting Vulcans. I wanted to see someone like Tuvok, grow into something more then the sum of his Human and Vulcan parts. The Data arc for example, showing how he had emotional attachments and experienced emotion, even though he couldn't feel it. Imagine having a Vulcan around who studied data for example, searching maybe for logical explanations for some of his actions and coming up short, leading him t.other conclusions about things. A man can dream I suppose.
@@xX_Gravity_Xx I would like to see the effects of the Romulan Diaspora on the Vulcans. Hopefully the the two will start to commingle again, learning from each other, including how to accept emotions. It could be a win-win situation - the Vulcans accept emotions again, and the Romulans learn ways of controlling the emotions.
Vulcans: We're ruled by raging emotions, so let's just repress it all and we'll be fine!"
Me (a sarcastic psychologist): Oh, that'll end well...
The amount of mental illness on Vulcan must be incredible. I could see that as being Vulcan's dirty little secret...half the population is barely functional because of crippling maladaptations while the other half blames them for it because they use arrogance as a coping mechanism.
When I was a kid back in 2004, i always thought vulcans and romulans were descendents of ancient elves from Lord of the Rings 😅
I always thought the same thing as well, they don't really go that far in the past with Vulcans so perhaps this is plausible, because they do say that these alien races in Star Trek are thousands of years old, we know that Lord OF the Rings is based apon Pre Medieval or Medieval earth kinda why they call it " Middle Earth" and there is no known content regarding the future of Middle Earth and what happens after LOTR so my theory is that the blank gap of both Vulcans and LOTR are linked, meaning that at some point in the future of Middle Earth, aliens came to colonize and wars happened which gave the creatures of Middle earth technology to start out with, like Particle weapons, lasers or projectile weapons and or lead them to develop their own maybe, and what if this Middle Earth was another planet similar to earth but the humans, elves and dwarves was all from Earth and was taken to this planet later called Middle Earth to repopulate? or what if humans came from this planet by an ancient alien race that created the humans? And later on in the future, the race that stayed on Middle Earth was only the elves and they developed science and technology and what if the Orcs became the Klingons? Humans well obviously lived on Earth and we know the rest on that, and what if the dwarves became the Tellerites? this actually makes a lot of sense because the Tellerites are dwarf like, Klingons are ORc like, Vulcans/Romulans are Elve like, so what if Middle earth after all the other races left and colonized other planets, became known as Vulcan? This would be one of the best bridges for the gaps.
Back in 2004 I would have beat in a fair one real talk
Absolutely not!!
...
Meh, that works. 😂
@@harvbegal6868 my work house is worked out
A Vulcan scientist will explore all logical avenues. If they can't find a way to accomplish the goal, they declare, "It can't be done." A human scientist will likewise explore all logical avenues. But if they can't find a way to accomplish the goal, they will begin exploring illogical avenues. When the Vulcan scientist says, "What are you doing? This can't be done." The human will respond with, "We'll find a way to get it done. If we have to explore illogical avenues to accomplish the goal, then so be it." Vulcan scientist: "You people are insane." To which the human would say, "Guilty as charged. But we will get this done one way or the other." We humans are a stubborn lot.
Damn right skippy we're insane and illogical and I'm proud to be as so lol - The thing I can't figure out is why stuff like alternate timelines, time travel, other universes, etc. are illogical - Science demonstrates their evidence though. Maybe it doesn't make sense for it to exist but my dog licking his balls doesn't make sense to me either - but He does it haha
@@dragonprinceHP It makes sense, just as your dog licking his testicles make sense. You and I don't see the sense (we can't, the universe is just too complicated for our little minds). But there is a sense in it even though we can't see it. Same as with the dog licking his testicles. It is probably for cleanliness, but then I don't know for sure. All I do know is that canine (dog) saliva is one of the best and cleanest antiseptics ever seen.
True, but Spock has identified these two traits during his tenure in Star Fleet. He rejected the Kolinar achievement. Hence, during the rest of his life, he accepted being a person of two worlds and his status on Vulcan, Earth, Romulus, and throughout the Federation is venerated and possibly on a status with Surak. Spock is a legend, to say the least. An honor Spock would sidestep and give the credit to his "frends" that Vulcan logic has a new methodology to consider.
I always wished they had done a sort of "prequel" series, or at least epic miniseries, about the Vulcan time of Reformation--especially back when Bruce Gray was still alive. He was quite compelling in his limited appearances as Surak. Start with their civil wars, and end a little after the Vulcan "separatists" leave to eventually become the Romulans.
Yes. I've always wanted to see this depicted on the show. This period in Vulcan's history is fascinating to me. I wish something similar could happen on Earth.
Star Trek is one of the series most ripe for miniseries expansions.
the eugenics wars in mid90s would have been a better arc, it would hve been like the starwars prequels. we all kno anakin becomes vader, same as we all know khan left earth on the botany bay… we could watch the early years of the augments on earth.
to be honest the star trek lore is great, we should have an athology series… 3 episode arcs telling a singular or combined story…. for example we could have a three episode arc on the first orb given to bajor,,,, or something about the klingons, something set in a world befoe khalas was around? or something about vulcan pre surak times… for example the discovery that they could do things via touch “the vulcan nerve pinch”…. or a three episode arc on the vulcan weapon shown in tng that would kill you for having bad thoughts… it was used in pre surak times on vulcan. these are just ideas… but picard in its current form and discovery arnt doing it for me
YESSSS!! I was thinking the same thing! They totally need to do that because it would be easier to understand them, and how they should do it is by making it one of those " Watch it before you watch the first movie" type deals kinda like how u would with Star Wars, Watch Episode 1, Ep.2, Clone wars, Ep.3, Rogue One, Han Solo, Ep.4, Ep.5, Ep.6, Mandalorian, Ep.7 etc. Only with a Vulcan show about how they evolved from War like to current form, then u add a series on how Romulans first started out to when they were at the beginning of the Federation era, then watch Enterprise, Discovery, Original Series, TNG, DS9, Voyager etc. Put everything in order for the timeline and actually show the evolution thru the series leading up.
For all we know, the "atomic wars" which devastated planet Vulcan were caused by Vulcans trying to prevent Romulans from leaving. Or caused by Romulans trying to prevent Vulcans from following.
Or it’s fiction
@@animalanimal7939 The Voyager is gonna have to go on another 7 year journey across the galaxy to find out who asked.
Dr. McCoy : Spock, how can you be so sure the Intrepid was destroyed?
Mr. Spock : I sensed it die.
Dr. McCoy : But I thought you had to be in physical contact with a subject before...
Mr. Spock : Doctor, even I, a half-Vulcan, could hear the death scream of four hundred Vulcan minds crying out over the distance between us.
Dr. McCoy : Not even a Vulcan could feel a starship die.
Mr. Spock : Call it a deep understanding of the way things happen to Vulcans, but I know that not a person, not even the computers on board the Intrepid, knew what was killing them or would have understood it had they known.
Dr. McCoy : But, 400 Vulcans?
Mr. Spock : I've noticed that about your people, Doctor. You find it easier to understand the death of one than the death of a million. You speak about the objective hardness of the Vulcan heart, yet how little room there seems to be in yours.
Dr. McCoy : Suffer the death of thy neighbour, eh, Spock? Now, you wouldn't wish that on us, would you?
Mr. Spock : It might have rendered your history a bit less bloody.
Cool vid. Maybe I'm a Romantic, but I always thought Vulcans were trying to protect us and steer us away from out most basal desires, especially after WW3. The Vulcans went through this before we did.
This was a good one! Very enlightening of the origins, and the Barbaric, and emotionally driven Vulcan history that nearly destroyed them and the splintering of Anti-Surak people who "Marched Beneath the Raptor's Wings"; who would become the Romulans.
Great breakdown and analysis!
In STTMP Spock admitted that logic was an interference with abstract thought. He not only stated that a warm handshake to a pure logically based being was irrational and and added nothing to to their existence but also pure logic stopped someone from thinking about alternative universes or other dimensions. Something logic could not prove.
That is why VGER wanted to meld with its creator. It needed a human touch.
The 1500 year thing could be how long it takes the politics to stabilize and the population recover for a world wide space program.
They also live for up to 700 years. That means 1500 is only a couple of lifetimes, which is actually a pretty quick cultural shift.
Just found your channel today while looking for information on early vulcans and then you released a video about it just after I finished your old video on ancient races. Perfect timing
Hmm, that would greatly explain why the Vulcans were so distrustful of humans moving into the interstellar group and later (for example the episode of ds9 where the crew played the Vulcans at baseball and others), they truly believe that humans aren't ready and believe that much like them they'll end up destroying themselves and when the burn happened believed they saw it happening, further Vulcans aren't as unemotional as they would like to project, they control it in such a way to make it appear as though they are but an emotionless species isn't so suspicious and suspicion can be a highly emotional state, they're also often irritated, jealous, fastidious, irrational, smug, Superior, condescending, and believe they're better than all or most other species, oh sure they hide it under a pretty veneer that makes them appear emotionless on the surface, but I don't think for a minute but they are halfway as secure as they believed themselves to be which would also makes them insecure another highly emotional state.
Agreed! Vulcans can be QUITE the hypocrites when they want!
The thing about Vulcans seems to be that they do not lack emotion. They seem, in fact, to be incredibly emotional beings. So much so that their emotions can completely rule their behavior absent great effort and psychological training. The Vulcans are engaging in a kind of shared social delusion, and Spock himself was a near perfect example of it. This is probably because he felt that he had something to prove. It is just a shame that Christine Chapel never benefited from his eventual awakening.
This was a good exploration of Vulcan history and I like the various acknowledgements of Beta canon you included
To quote Spock if I remember correctly “Logic is the beginning of wisdom not the end of it” or something like that. Vulcan logic can sometimes be too dogmatic and inflexible and this is correctly shown in T’Pol’s position denying time travel.
In all fairness, T’Pol was basing that on the “findings” of the Vulcan Science Academy.
The last time I was this early I was chilling with Surak on Vulcan
Shaka, when the walls fell.
@@JimmyTurner his arms wide.
I certainly agree that Vulcan dogma did much to hold them back. I might also explain the Vulcan's slow recovery to a desert planet having a low population, with a nuclear war being all the more damaging and long lasting.
Further, with that in mind, the Romulans, rather than being losers slinking off, might have been the winners who abandoned a devastated and maybe seemingly dying planet?
Also, the Vulcans are going to be worried about the maintenance of logic in their culture. The fear of far flung colonies experiencing social drift might have also contributed to why they were slow to return to space, and also why they didn't plant colonies with nearly the fervor that earth immediately began doing.
What if the planet Vulcan was actually a paradise (or at least more green) before the nuclear war?
@@user-nf9xc7ww7m Hard to say, in that would have changed Vulcan culture and probably their evolution as well. Assuming that they did evolve on Vulcan to some degree or another, and not planted there by Sargon's people. Presumably, the hard environment and the Vulcan natural tempestuous emotions went hand in hand in making Vulcans very violent.
Presumably, they would have been different in a kinder environment. However, in the Star Trek setting, there almost seems to be a 'need' for a species to step before the brink of extinction so as to truly unify and take steps never to risk everything in a war. Doubtlessly there are many exceptions, but of the four founding members of the Federation, Humans, Tellarites and, of course, Vulcans brushed up with potential extinction or were on that road. The exception, the Andorians, might have avoided that due to Vulcan's making first contact with them, before they invented their own Prime Directive.
So, a good chance would exist for the Vulcans to have gone to a dangerous suicidal war anyway, even if Vulcan was a greener place. A greater population might have paradoxically made extinction more likely with more nukes being used? Or else some sort of consensus of a greater population might have avoided such a war? If the proto-Romulans had left due to the planet seeming doomed, maybe they would have stuck around if the place was recoverable? We don't know if the Romulans left or thrown out. Generally, I wouldn't think that a devastated world would use precious resources so as to exile their losing side?
All things otherwise being the same, a greener planet would have allowed the Vulcans to recover faster from the war.
Are the older Star Trek novels considered canon? If so, what about the 1988 novel 'Spock's World' by Diane Duane? That novel contains a great deal of Vulcan history from their stone age up to the fiction universe 'present', incorporated as a series of flashback interludes in between the main storyline of the novel.
@@Ge1Ri4 I think there's something like only three novels that are considered official canon. The rest are considered to be "canon fodder".
@@user-nf9xc7ww7m It's too bad the episode "Return To Tomorrow" is panned by some critics because it really was a good one !!
Speaking about the question why it took the Vulcans half a millennia to rejoin the interstellar community: I think one should also consider the prolonged age of Vulcans (compared to humans). For Vulcans 1500 years is like 700 years for the 23rd century human, or perhaps something about 300 or 400 years for the Contemporary humans. You can compare it do the Middle Ages: we ourselves have recovered from it for almost a millennia during that time. So their technological progress is slower as is their biological life (again, compared to humans).
What do you mean? The Middle Ages did not have a regress in technological progress. Especially for the European tribes.
@@hectornonayurbusiness2631 Well, in Europe there was a huge regress when it came to economy and "globalization". Tbh, I'm not so sure that the term Middle Ages has any meaning outside of Europe. Anyway, once unified world, under Roman rule, was splintered into hundreds of tiny fractions that competed with each other and could barely compete with outside world. It wasn't until renaissance that it started to turn around.
Vulcans are related to Sargon's people as Vulcans store Katras as did his people. Sargon's race is sometimes assumed to be the preservers that may have brought Miramani and her people to their planet, and possibly the Mintakans to their planet.
I'd imagine the Mintakans were descendants of Sargon's people same as the Vulcans. The different levels of cultural development between the two could be an indication of their relative distance from Sargon's planet and, possibly, that the colony ships weren't warp capable and carried their ancestors there in cryogenic stasis at sublight speeds.
"Spock's World" did a wonderful job summarizing Vulcan history, although some might complain that the writer made them a little too earth-like up to a point.
I just started watching the original Star Trek series and started watching this after just finishing Return to Tomorrow. Pretty cool coincidence.
How about digging into the Romulan/Vulcan split?
Excellent video on Vulcans /Spock's origin. However no origin of Spock could be complete without revealing Gene Roddenberry's. Heavy influence of the original Outer Limits episode "Keeper Of The
Purple Twilight". In This episode there is a alien character named "Ikar" who has all of Spock's traits , he has no emotions, the ability to read minds and super human strength.
I believe my illustrator dad designed the Spock Vulcan look on the cover of the AMAZING STORIES sci-fi magazine. My dad used himself as a model for vulcans look. I resembled my dad and was called Spock in my HS years.
What I have been able to piece together with it is that the Vulcans and most likely other vulcanoid peoples shared a common ancestry with the Sargonians, with most likely a few groups of them settling on the planets and intermingling with the native humanoids creating related hybrid species, with the Sargonians as the link that makes all these races related. As well to explain the Sargonian's look, I am inclined to believe that they were the first vulcanoids, since the vulcanoid traits are very dominant. Even after diluting with the mixing of the planet's native populations, I can still see that the vulcanoid traits might have been able to show through. It seems like a good explanation to say the least.
This is so informative, I'm glad it was in my recommended.
Keep up the good work! At least for this johnra you are a very, very good presenter, and I really enjoy your videos!
There are many universes and it's like the Vulcan's are an offshoot of the Eldar 40,000 years in the future of a galaxy that only knows war. There was an incident involving spore space and the guardian of forever that crash landed an Eldar hive ship on Vulcan and this is where they came from
"spock's world" also says it's possible the "Preservers" brought the first proto-Vulcanoids to vulcan Which if I remember correctly are depicted as neolithic In the earliest depicted parts of the book or possibly even pre-Language but I'd need to check
Spocks world is a great book!
I think you have a great way of sharing your thoughts on this topic, I think all FANS have opinions BUT YOU DID THE RESEARCH I didn't and I find what you have shared to be informative. I thank you.
Love ❤️ your theories.
Be nice to have had a name of an ancient Romulan who opposed Surak or differed.
In Enterprise T’Pol uses the crazy Vulcan “without logic” as reason for why Vulcans adhere to Surak’s teachings. Yet, most if not all the crew were decent as they come like Trip’s friend.
Think S'Task in Spock's World. Surak's protege who led the Traveler's from Vulcan.
Fantastic video!
I wonder if the Romulans were the ones had had a Socrates? Maybe they took him with them?
All jokes aside though, is it possible that part of the tension between early Romulans and Vulcans, was due to this idea of a rigid logic hindering growth? Or maybe the Romulans just liked their emotions, I don't know.
Pure logic is rather static lacking imagination.
Ironicaly the Vulcans are so busy controling their Emotions, that they are controled by them again. They organised their whole lifes aroud them after all.🖖
@@comentedonakeyboard Lives.
I rather expect that the Romulans may have ended up having an Aristotle, or a series thereof. And no doubt, he was / they were a mentor and advisor to many of the early Praetors - much like Aristotle was a mentor to Alexander the Great.
Of course by implication, that’s still styling the Romulans as far more colourful and multi-cultured than we actually see them as being. One could more likely suppose that early Praetors or whatever rulers there were in Romulan society at the time may have been more like the Medici family, and that their greatest philosopher(s) were more like Machiavelli.
I always thought that they did
What a superb video! One of the best Trek videos I've watched in a while, so thank you and keep it up!!
I know it's all fiction, but thematically, the first season has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the rest of the series. Inspite of what you think, the Vulcans were one of the strongest, and toughest races in series. With a mere flick of the fingers, they could send a person flying. The Klingons were weaselly little liars, sort of like Ferengi, but worst. How the Klingons went from cowering dogs, to bad asses I don't know. The first show is it's own beast.
Did you consider the Proto-Vulcan society in the episode Who Watches the Watchers as a possible link to older civilizations that may have seeded Vulcans on other planets?
Glad you brought that up! I almost included them--the Mintakans--in this video. I think they could be another "seeded race" of Sargon's people.
@@OrangeRiver I agree that is probably what they were meant to be
@@OrangeRiver Also if I am not mistaken the Star Fleet Battles board game from the 1970s had race origins for Star Trek species. While no longer canon these came from the original writers. Can't remember what they said but I am sure this is archived somewhere.
I always thought of the minitkans as just an example of parallel evolution. TOS had a few examples of parallel evolved humans. One even had a Roman empire, and another a United States of America. They even had a name for some theory that was suppose to explain how two planets could develop so similarly, one surely boosted after finding that huminod evolution had been encoded into early life galaxy wide by the early humanoids. But I suppose this could have come from the perservers too. But the way the minitkans were talked about it just seemed more like parallel evolution.
Magnificent break down please do more on vulcans
02:03 "astro biologist" is really odd...in that she's wearing red. That really should be a blue uniform. Of course the original series tended to be fast and loose with their own rules.
VERY interesting! Amazing how the "history" comes together and makes sense.
I'm a bit late to the party on this one but.... NICELY DONE!!!!
When a mommy Vulcan loves a daddy Vulcan very much, once every seven years they share a very special "hug" ...
I wish our world was a little more like Vulcan society sometimes, even just a little. I've always admired the Vulcan value in logic.
I agree logic of that nature is very useful as a point of reflection and i would say there are people who try there best to think live and do things as humans in a similar manner however unlike star trek haven't lucked into a organization like the federation because of obvious limits that prevent it from happening.
@@frankcabanski9409 thats a really basic way of looking at logic the choices by how they did everything was mostly emotional and not very logical unlike Vulcans very different ways of thinking.
@@frankcabanski9409 you contradict without fact which is an emotional response. emotional thinking is what Vulcans clearly avoided as we know them... Misusing and taking ideas from others and transforming them to be some sort of fanatical brainwash of bad ideas and half cooked ideas is not at all logical its all emotional... Nazi's avoid facts even used a symbol of peace flags all while invading nations that did not want them to invade it was far more logical what was done to stop them. They are nothing like Vulcans nor are they at all logical when you really understand why there idea are so obviously wrong and also illogical. The unfair treaties that caused ww2 also a sign of the lack of logic of the era because it lacked any sense in preventing war and was seriously damaging to culture of Germany allowing fanatical figures to attain power as they did in not just Germany but in many places and politics like it is sadly still in use in many policy's today.. We are all humans and to abuse anything for even being sub human is wrong we have laws preventing even abuse pets in such ways as the nazi did to people not because what anything they thought was logical the burn books that disagreed with them because they would be able to self scrutinize as a logical person must do to retain a real sense of logic and at the time even that level of logic wasn't mainstream as i suggested. Superior itself is a idea that liken itself to perfection which is an ideal not real logic.. Its more like the borg which have used an idealism to create there identity making a serious flaw in logic.
@@henrybleisch9025 Using deception is merely immoral; it is actually quite a logical way for an amoral individual to achieve their goals. Morality is an emotional consideration, not a logical one.
Very well researched material. SciFi is important to our developement. Good or bad futures within these shows can inform us in the now. What we should be careful with and watch out for.
I always thought who you sounded like then it came to me - RILEY POOLE in National Treasure!
Neat! I didn't know a lot about this subject. Thanks!
You're welcome! I'd been wanting to make this video for a very long time.
You went deep on this one. Great commentary.
I would love someone to create a show that would explain how the Vulcans become who they are. Starting with their barbaric society and evolve into what they are now. I think J.J. Abrams would do a great job with it! This may not be a popular opinion but it's just a thought.
Just IMHO of course, but I think J.J. Abrams would be a horrible choice. His Star Trek ... wasn't the worst thing ever, but neither was it very good. Also Abrams is very action oriented. Personally I'd like to see a return to more cerebral star trek. Sure, action sequences have always been part of trek, but they were always bracketed with discussions and debate and contemplation of the problems, possible actions, and consequences. Something I believe you'd need a lot of to do an anthology-like series on valcan history.
@@PresleyPerswain I personally really liked the JJ Star Trek films and of course understand that they didn't favor some audiences. And this is just a casual debate nothing to undermine anyones opinion. With that said, there are several reference to Vulcans' being a very barbaric race more so than humans before the time of Surak. Because of the references to Vulcan barbarism I think JJ would be a great choice to display how barbaric they were and show the progression of the Vulcan race and even how the Romulans split off from the Vulcans'. I'm not saying that he is the best choice just someone to consider out of the plethora of other directors. I also took in consideration the show "LOST" which he created along side Jeffery Lieber and Damon Lindelo. It was a very successful show with lots of action, debate, contemplation of reality, as well as showing the consequences of actions.
@@tedalexander6592 of course your allowed your opinion. I wasn't trying to say 'you're wrong', just adding my own opinion. But i realize how CZcams comment sections often are, so i understand the defensiveness. And, hey, I could be totally wrong and Abrams might make for an excellent director for such a project. Who knows?
I'm convinced I'm a actual Vulcan
LLAP honored relation. In another place, I am called T'sai.
I’ll admit I’m still quite skeptical but I can see where this is coming from. As I said I’m still skeptical and I’ll need a little more evidence to convince me but this was a great video with a great topic
Vulcans are paradoxicaly (il)logical.
Great ideas and theories, I really never saw the Vulcans being that ancient!
1500 years to rebuild and travel to stars from the 4th century to the 19th century for the Vulcans vs 88 years from 2063 to 2151 for humans is a huge giant gap it’s not even close. Seems like the Vulcans are cautious and risk averse were as humans are risk takers. that’s like us taking from the mid 21st century until the 26th century to rebuild and Start exploring witch way way way way beyond ridiculous 88 years is long enough witch is all ready bordering on ridiculous
Really digging your content sir...very interesting and insightful
I remember reading in a star trek novel (I can't remember which one) that the Vulcans were once a barbaric race. When they first started the reformation of becoming a race based on logic over emotion, not all Vulcans took that path. Either by exile, or leaving on their own, those Vulcans took to the stars to continue their emotional evolution elsewhere. As time passed, this migrant group split, once again, into two groups. One evolved as the Klingons, the barbaric, emotional warrior-type, the other became the Romulans, the less emotional, more ruthless and technically driven-type. This explains their similar appearance to the Vulcans, especially in TOS.
Interesting, thanks for the research ...
Excellent Star Trek lore video dude couldn't have done it better myself.
Except that both Vulcans and Romulans can interbreed quite easily with humans as well as with each other. All three are therefore the same species and there is just no biological manner of arguing about that. So the question has never been, where did the Romulans originate, but rather, where did the humans originate?
I think its probable a pre-vulcanoid race had been to many planets. This is evident from not only the other planets we see with proto-vulcan ancestory (Mintakens come to mind). I have a feeling its most likely the first pre-vulcan race and earth (or whomever seeded earth) were evolved independently but with very similar humanoid dna instructions. There is also evidence perhaps for Betazoids, Remans, Rigelians, and probably some more im missing.
@@velnz5475 Actually, the whole premise is ridiculous. You might recall that human blood is red because it is iron based while Vulcan and Romulan blood is green because it is copper based. This would indicate entirely different evolutionary paths over a very long span of time. It is impossible for Vulcans, Romulans and humans to be closely related enough to permit them to breed with one another. Roddenberry really did not think this one through.
Great summation of the Vulcans
In one of the Star Trek novels I read, many years ago, there was reference to a telepathic intelligence in the Vulcan desert. A singular entity. I have not heard any further discussion beyond that. Have you read anything on that?
When there is nothing to say, say nothing. Very well played, sir very well played.
Love these videos
Great vid. I’m glad you reminded me. I almost forgot to be awesome. 🤦🏽♂️
Thanks
VULCAN should be the next movie.
Шаришь за эти игры конечно)) каждый раз смотрю твои ролики и думаю сам начать тащить тут))
I'd have preferred it if the Vulcans were the offshoots: wouldn't it be just like a group of true believers in a stern philosophical system to settle a harsh world 0.) to temper and test themselves and 1.) to 'prove' that their beliefs made them strong enough to handle living there?
This sounds exactly like Salusa Secundus, the home planet of the Sardaukar from Dune, formerly known as Corrin (the planet surface had been utterly devasted by war. Even after 10,000 years it has yet to recover). When Duke Leto and Thufir Hawat were discussing the Fremen and their potential as allies Thufir points out the similarities between them: harsh environment to thin out the weaklings, leaving only the strongest; the creed both cultures are taught from infancy, that they are the Chosen ones. All their suffering and struggle has made them tough, made them one. Excellent source of fanatic followers. Also when Baron Harkonnen and Count Hasimir Fenring are speaking in the cone of silence the Baron casually mentions setting up a training program for his soldiers on Arrakis similar to the Emperor's Sardaukar training program and Count Fenring goes on full alert, discouraging any and all steps in this direction. I wonder if the Middle East region and culture has any resemblance to this type of training program?
Vulcans more iconic? Ha! That's an understatement. I'm a fantasy writer and I can tell you that SF/fantasy is not as easy as many will have you believe. So when ST came up with the Vulcans, it was the sci-fi equivalent to winning the lottery. The vast amount of Hollywood sci-fi is brain-dead, starved for science or logic, and yet the ST Vulcans give you instant cred just by their existence. BTW, I thought _Spock's World_ was accepted canon. And I thought you weren't allowed to publish a ST-themed book without it being approved, i.e., it must not break canon.
I could have sworn original series mentioned how it was a coalition including humans and Vulcans who invented warp travel. Sure that got retconned quite quickly after even the most unscientific realized that it was impossible to have interstellar Vulcans and Romulans without FTL. But it is something, right?
TOS had an episode where the Enterprise found Zehren Cocheran (sp?) being kept alive by some alien. There he was described as the inventor of warp drive and 'of Alpha Centuri.' Which lead many to assume he was a native Alpha Centurian (in other words not human). I think that was Rodenberry's intention, but TNG:FC retconed him to be human and from Earth.
So why 'of Alpha Centuri'? Well, think Laurence of Arabia. You don't have to be from somewhere to be associated with that place. Maybe he campaigned really hard to set up humanities' first (edit: interstellar) colony there, and was among the first colonists there. Maybe he was elected leader there. Who knows, but the title can still work.
Oh, and romulans and vulcans still split over 1500 years before vulcans developed warp. They could have used STL generation ships, but romulous seems rather far away, so yea, that doesn't make much sense to me, but until it's retconed that's what's canon.
Hmmm I gotta rewatch Enterprise.
Good, thanks!
A bit of the history/theroy of the Vulcan people being seeded is talked about in The book “yesterdays son” involves spock learning of a son he fathered when thrown back in in the stone age with Zarabeth "TOS - All Our Yesterdays" by the ??librabrian or custodian?? I forget. Then going back for him again in the sequel “time for yesterday” to fix the guardian of forever
8:56 - Yes, Vulcans could have done with a Socrates.
But since the 23nd century they did at least have a SPOCK-rates!
....I’ll see myself out!
Please do
Andorians on my favorite Star Trek alien species please do one of these research history things on them please
I've always assumed that 'logical' is an inadequate translation of a term meaning 'logical' but also 'socially acceptable', 'customary', and 'ritually clean".
Is it true that in canon, early Vulcans were visited by the "Greek gods" race and that's where the names Vulcan, Romulus and Remus come from?
I haven't been able to find definitive proof that this was the case, apparently it was suggested in a StarTrek.com article. But it would explain some things!
Chances are high, just as did many Terran Earth cultures, the name the people of Vulcan call themselves may be way different. "Vulcan" is likely Federation Standard for that name, in my opinion. What do "The People of This Place" call themselves?
It could also just be a case of "anglicizing" the name, just as the officials on Liberty Island did when they couldn't spell an immigrant's name during the 19th & early 20th centuries.
There was a ST novel where the Romulans actually referred to their home planet as, "Rhiansu" (sic), and not, "Romulus". I'm sorry that I can't remember the name of the book, it was 12 or more years since I read the novel. I'm not as immersed in the many cultures of Star Trek as I could be, my interests generally lay in the technological aspects of all of the series, so delving further into the many species, their cultures, and histories were never a priority for me. But I really enjoyed this presentation on the history of Vulcans, and I look forward to learning more of the histories of all that inhabit the galaxy of Star Trek.
ni var is the vulcan home world name according memory alpha if your going by memory beta sources which is non cannon then its T'Khasi, Minshara or Ti-Valka'ain.
@@crystalaura45 Somehow all Vulcan's names sound sweet to me. Cannon and not. There is in them something that touches the heart. LLAP
This is really cool. Thanks man.
Re: Vulcan Emotion
I’ve always interpreted the Vulcan handling of their feelings as the need and desire for mastery of their emotions not suppression of them.
Wonderful. Great work.
I want them to cover more than one episode of the mintakans, as far as omulan and vulcan societies go - i want to know what happened to their little cousins - did they ever rejoin the unification process or are they forever forgotten an doing their own thing or?
I like how you point out that logic can be used as a shield for preconceived biases and notions. Rationality is not some impartial, magic anti-bias tool, and the idea that any being can be 100% logical is just absolutely ridiculous to me. Putting aside the inherent neurological and psychological differences an alien species would have, anyone can logic themselves into believing anything.
The Vulcans are constantly shown to be ruled by their emotions with a mere veneer of "logic". It's kind of an irritating aspect of the franchise to me. I can't think of an episode where a logical Vulcan was correct when the intuitive human was wrong. Please correct me if I'm wrong as I'd love to watch it.
Commander Spock's actions in "Menagerie" are entirely ruled by his emotional ties to Captain Pike. He lies, he falsifies records, he assaults Starfleet personnel, he endangers the ship, the crew, both his and Captain Kirk's career...not to mention, risking the death penalty. All in an emotional desire to let Pike live out the remainder of his life in a hallucination. Spock is my favorite Star Trek character, but if you look back you'll see the writers' failure to really capture the logic that was supposed to drive him.
@@lilithdemonia74 That was the revamped pilot before anyone had even begun to define their culture much. It's just that I dislike when we're repeatedly told one thing, but what's shown on screen is very different.
Arena Spock's logic was used to find the landing party that was transported light years away
@@lilithdemonia74 *Nods* As David Gerrold wrote in "The World of Star Trek," nothing about Spock's character, culture, history, or even planet of origin--much less the fact that he was half human--had been worked out when "The Menagerie" was produced, and even by the second pilot, "Where No Man Has Gone Before" (which took place largely on the uninhabited but resources-rich planet Delta Vega, "where even the ore ships only call every twenty years"), the details were still quite sketchy.
Hi thank you this has help me.
Hey thanks for making these categorized videos! While i might have my stupid opinions i enjoy watching them!
The information presented within this video is a good explanation of why the Vulcans were trying so hard to hold humans back.
Vulcan experience would suggest that it would take many millennia for any species to venture out into space once faster than light travel has been perfected. Of course, the Vulcans were using there logic to justify their position, whether valid or not.
Which is pointed out rather well in the video. Any possible position or opinion can be justified if argued, for or against, to the right people.
The Vulcan logic seems more emotional than scientific when dealing with issues outside of their influence, or when their authority is challenged.
All this makes for good stories when Vulcans are involved.
What if the Sargonians where the ones that turned Vulcans Sun from yellow to red, causing the solar flare that caused the climate change?
I have been a star trek fan since I was 5 and I watched it with my aunt. We were watching it once and Kirk called McCoy Bones and my aunt looked at me and said that's a perfect nickname for you, meaning Bones because I'm skinny
I'm not sure you can trust Vulcans as a reliable source for their history. Given Romulans basically showing that Vulcans could have lived with emotions its hard to believe any of their early history.
Brilliant
Studied history and anthropology in college, love that stuff even of fictional races like Vulcans, Cardassians, etc.
Logic is like Prozac to an alien race who is basically criminally insane.
I enjoy Your Art.
God Loves You and so do I.
Peace!
\o/
Live long and prosper!
The Vulcan's belief that they caused The Burn would have been far better than what we got. Kelpan manlet: "Muh chicken nuggees! Reeeeeeeeee!" *dilithium explodes for no reason*
Nice work!
Thank you!
Did anyone actually watch the Original Star Trek? Spock talks about how Vulcans were Romulans. There was a split that created the Vulcans living by logic. That's it in nutshell.
Seriously
What about the Mintakans? They were a 'Vulcanoid' people!
Where is Mintaka? I know it’s the third star in Orion’s belt, but that doesn’t tell us exactly where and how far away.
@@keirfarnum6811 Does it matter?
Those people were very Vulcan like in biology & looks!
@@DMSProduktions And how common are humans? I'm not even talking about bumpy nose humans like Bajorans, but literally identical in every single way as humans? Very. Calling a species vulcanoid doesn't carry the weight you seem to be implying, IMO. If anything, it's interesting how few we have seen in canon though.
i've been watching your shows for a few days.. you're good.. what do you do for a day job. thanks.
It would make sense for humans and Vulcan to have a common ancestor, given the parentage of Spock. If they were entirely different species, it is doubtful that they could have procreated.
Have any of you heard of the "Kraith" series, a proposed history of the Vulcans, that Jacqueline Lichtenberg, Myrna Culbreath, and Sondra Marshak decades ago were discussing? I never saw anything in print.
Each had written early Star Trek novels. Some of them also had edited Star Trek: New Voyages and a following, both anthologies of fan fiction.
My only problem with the Romulans is that 1500 years is such a short amount of time for a speciation event to happen.
That's definitely true. Perhaps they implemented some form of genetic engineering given their new environment.
It depends.
We are assuming that there wasn't already at least some sort of genetic difference between the Vulcans and the Romulans before they left Vulcan.
Its possible that ancient Vulcan somehow saw parallel evolution of various sub species on Vulcan. Romulans could be the Homo Sapiens to the Vulcan Neanderthals.
Just because one destroyed the other on Earth doesn't mean it happened there.
Couple that with a few centuries sailing the stars on primitive ships exposed to the effects of cosmic radiation, by the time they get to Romulus, significant genetic differences might already exist.
Then, you might see Romulan interbreeding with Remans or a forgotten species residing on Romulus who were bred out of existance/wiped out. Or outright genetic modification to make people more suited to life on Romulus,and the genetic differences will emerge relatively quickly.
@@anthonycunningham8116 Those are some interesting ideas! Romulans having speciated before they even left Vulcan is something I hadn't considered before, but it would explain a lot. Interbreeding with the Remans is definitely possible too.
There is a fan theory that one of the unmentioned bad things Vulcans did in their evil past was genetic engineering - with pretty much the same consequences as on Earth. Consider that Vulcans are supposed to be unnaturally strong, long-lived and have strong mental abilities - unlike, say, the Romulans.
So perhaps all the current Vulcans are the offspring of the "superior" (but also much more aggressive and unstable) modified species, who waged a war of extermination on their unimproved brethren. Romulans would then be the lucky few who managed to escape.
This would explain a lot about the reticent and even dogmatic nature of the current Vulcans... they can't allow themselves to fall to the old ways, for a very good reason.
@@pestergaines so basically the Romulans are the original Vulcans who conducted genetic experiments gone wrong, and modern day Romulans are the few non augmented Vulcans who managed to escape.
Your camera setup looks great!
Thanks man!
@@OrangeRiver the bokeh definitely looks really nice, though I will say the plane of focus is just slightly too narrow, imo. It was subtle at the start of the video, but by the end, the parts of your body closer to the centre of frame had moved further back, as your torso became slightly tilted toward the camera on the left side of the frame. That’s started to become distracting for me.
Though of course I understand that closing the aperture slightly to increase the plane of focus might have reduced your desired bokeh too much, since it’s all tradeoffs, and maybe you consciously took that tradeoff for the strong background separation.
I do suspect you hadn’t intended to move your right shoulder toward the camera and your left away, since it was much more subtle at the beginning of the video.
Though I also notice your right shoulder, on the left of the frame, doesn’t become defocussed the same way as your left shoulder, so even as it moved forward it was still within the plane of focus. Perhaps rather than an issue about the plane of focus’ depth, maybe you were just sat at the very back of the plane of focus and could have moved slightly forward? Obviously that’s dependent on your specific lens setup.
Also, just to be clear, I’m trying to do photography shop talk, not intended to be a takedown or anything :) I know that can be ambiguous in text sometimes.