Battery Cell Configuration & Model Y Comparisons: Inside the Tesla Cybertruck Battery Pack
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- čas přidán 11. 06. 2024
- Thanks to Wiegel for sponsoring today's video!
Wiegel is the leading metal stamping source, providing mass-production metal stamping services such as progressive die high-speed stamping, progressive die heavy metal stamping, engineering support, in-house toolmaking, rapid prototype, waterjet cutting and automated assembly of parts. Learn more at www.wiegel.com/
Sandy and Tom return with the Cybertruck battery pack to share more findings since our lid removal video, including cell configuration, similarities & differences to the Model Y pack, and possible cell removal strategies.
0:00 Ball Bearings
1:31 Wiegel
7:12 Mind Your S's and P's
10:58 Why We Aren't Selling Cells
15:19 A Route Out
19:42 2 Half Packs Make a Whole
Munro Live is a CZcams channel that features Sandy Munro and other engineers from Munro & Associates. Munro is an engineering consulting firm and a world leader in reverse engineering, costing, and teardown benchmarking.
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#tesla #cybertruck #elonmusk - Auta a dopravní prostředky
I love how Sandy respects his colleagues to explain what they know best. That shows he has a strong team.
Why did Cory quit? Ummm, aaahhh, ummm, and aaaahhh, ummmm, and yet I ummmm, ammm, uuuuuhhhhh....never mind
@@cengeb Wait, Cory quit?! I was wondering why he hasn't been in any videos lately. I just read that Lucid scooped him up. But when someone leaves a great position at one company they've been at for a very long time to join another company, that usually means there were issues and were about to be fired.
Wish I could’ve had teachers like Tom
Why am I watching this? I'm never going to buy a cybertruck. Inquiring minds just want to know! This tech is interesting.
This is the future right here
@@b4804514 Hydrogen fuel cells are the future, this stuff is already obsolete
you MAY one day ride in TESLA robotaxi w/ Structural pack.
Many folks watch how a Rolls is made on CZcams,yet would never buy one ,or have the money to buy it!🤑
Why are you watching this? Why are you commenting too? Why am I reading your comment, and why am I replying???
The main difference is that the Model Y forbidden candy is strawberry flavored and the Cybertruck one is mint flavored.
did you taste them?
@@unitrader403no, he paid for the Munro repor
Or pistachio 🤔
The main difference is the CYBERPAK teardown performed by DANA CARVEY OR CAMERON FROM FERRIS BUELLER, anyone?
Video starts at 7:12
This is really interesting
Thanks Sandy and team for allowing us to see how the Cybtrk Battery Pack is constructed and how it works.Maybe you can get access to a GM pickup Ultium battery pack?
Maybe one day.
its NOT really Different from ULTIUM Hummer EV pack.
Silverado EV RST weighs +9000 lbs.......lol.
@@markplott4820 I know that one hell of a pig!🤣
@@user-cw9em3mo3w why? The hummev is about as big as an og h1 and those weighed 8,800# without armour or guns!
They also got about 6-8mpg at best on diesel which is 37.9kwhs per gallon in total energy.
Anything ice segment that big with that much power, featuring awd, 35s, air suspension, t tops etc. Is also going to weigh 8-10k pounds!
Really the ct weighing less than a rivian at 6,600-6,800# while having legit 35s, air suspension awd, up to tri motors etc.
Along with the larger bed, high towing capacity and bullet resistant stainless is damn impressive imo!
Didn't munro say the 123kwh ct pack with top cover doubling as the vehicle's floor&seat brackets only weighed 1,400#?
Vs the rivian 131kwh pack alone is over 1,800# and the 229kwh hummev pack is over 2,800# 😎
They look crazy too. I worry all the OEMs won’t be able to pivot to BEVs profitably. Mercedes, BMW, and Porsche (not the rest of VW) might. 🤞
I enjoy Tom's choice of words.
Top content!
The ad was interesting. As long as the ads are informative and interesting you can maintain viewership. Some may complain, but as long as it is interesting and informative most won’t care. Actually great services are of interest. I think they could have gone into greater depth into more services and details.
Well said!
They need their own channel!
Decoded his insider jargon……………S’es & P’es = Series & Parallels
This channel is really for companies and innovators. The side effect is Sandy’s has a great perspective and personality. Which draws the average viewer.
The Ad was spot on for me. I own a company that will make EVs one day. I also watch Sandy to see what publication I want to buy from them. You know those reports they sell. About engineering. Yeah I watch for that. Not as a consumer but as an engineer and innovator.
Sorry to burst your bubbles but this channels ads can be skipped if you don’t like it. As for me I am watching and listening to everything they have to say. It’s imperative as a business owner in automotive or manufacturing. Munro and Associates information is equal to a playbook if you know how to read the data.
But this is my opinion and observation. Yours maybe different.
Thank you for enjoying our ad. The full plant tour video is available on Munro Live's channel. 😀
@wiegelmfg Great company!! 👏👏👏
@@deltajohnny Thank you very much!! 😀
When you start making your EVs will you be copying Tesla's strategy of making a homogenous battery pack? 1000 units in and you discover an internal battery issue, that's it, company is finished. So I'm not sure what this video adds to a start-up car maker.
It seams like you were a bit off in that video, But I like Tom your battery expert guy. A bit of a Mr. Rogers vibe nerdy but cool. Knowledgable and appears friendly on camera. I would not mind seeing more of him in future videos. Thanks Sandy for the great content. I felt like I was watching Mr. Rogers meets Bill Bye the Tesla guy. LOL Love you guys.
Tom has been featured in TONS of videos and podcasts lately.
Thank you very much guys.
Wonderful, thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Excellent information as always. Really enjoyed that
Glad you enjoyed it
Great vid, guys.
Sandy looks so annoyed with everything Tom says, I personally loved Tom’s attention to detail, and depth of information he provided.
@mrneildillingham - I think its more like paying attention for when he might have to translate for Joe Average or perhaps put the brakes on revealing Privileged Info.
Best!
Thanks a lot. It was very interesting.
You are very welcome!
Good job! ....Thanks for video!
Thanks for watching!
Very interesting
Cheers guys
Great video, and Tom rocks! 👏👏👏
Thanks
great vid and Informative as well.
Thanks!
Thank you for your support! 💚
🤗THANKS SANDY,TOM, AND ALL THE MUNRO TEAM …HERE TO LEARN 🧐💚💚💚
Awesome 😎 👍
Part of me hopes that Tesla will eventually add a "Long Range" pack for the Cybertruck via the use of a 4695 cell or improved 4680 cell, although the former would be a long shot. A bit more range without sacrificing the bed space is something that would greatly appeal to me.
They also need to unlock the v4s and true 800+v ct charging curve as Lars already promised month's ago! When he told top gear the update would allow for 180 miles in 18-20mins or less on an 800+v charger.
The nxu CEO already did a test he shared on here with his ct on an in house 800+v charger and got 327kws and 80+miles back in just 8mins!
That kind of charging curve opening up would ease imo some of the ct range concerns. Sadly in the US currently only about 4% of public dcfc are 800+v with 250-350kw capability. And few have teslas reliability or pull through trailer friendly spots. 😐
They won't go 4695...
They do however have two new NMC chemistry and PDO variations in the horizon that will greatly increase the pack and volumetric density.. NMC955 and NMC973 with various % more silicon load in it + Integration of PDO.. these evolutionary steps over the next 2-5 years will increase this range and use of the truck to 450-500 miles.
How fast they implement these new chemistry and changes will be dependent on internal testing and future pack iterations.
That's not about upscaling production. 🍀
@@AustinFerguson Brother battery engineering is a world of 2-5% percent improvements at mass production scale (lab scale is a very different story!) and expect them to make that improvement when they have fail at DBE cathode and are transitioning to wet is just insane. Adding one additive does not eliminate nickel’s high off gassing potential or silicons crazy expansion ratio (micron silicon helps but you still get like an additional 10%!). Companies cannot afford to pump out untested chemistries because at the end of the day you need to make billions of these things and even 0.01% failure rate is terrifying. Just buy the cybertruck when it has pana 4680s, lol.
The ball bearing vent seems like a pretty neat idea, just like the vents on the pack you showed in a previous video.
I so want to know what solvent dissolves that foam. There has to be one if they have any hope of refurbishing damaged cells or cell groups.
Numbers 3, 6 & 9 are the magic Nikola Tesla numbers of the Universe.
Interesting. Hmmmm... the Chinese like these numbers too! (Funny that I knew this from the name of a good Dim Sum restaurant in Markham, Ontario LOL)
@@DouglasJMark
I thought they loved 8
What holds the battery assembly up in the tray when mounted? Purely potted into place or is there some structural elements that bear the downward force of the batteries?
Is there going to be a battery upgrade to the main pack for the Cybertruck? (NOT the range extender)
honestly actually really enjoyed the sponsor section.
We are glad you enjoyed our ad- thank you!
Well, I'm an interested layperson (not an engineer), and I actually find the extended infomercials interesting. All the best
Afternoon guys
how can the gas escape from the cells if the pressure release opening is covered in rock-hard foam?
What a great business (Weigel). Sad we don't see much of that in Australia, family owned engineering business going on 3 generations.
Thank you- we are very proud! 😀
As an American I am so proud of the Tesla staff and the company goals and objectives. This is world changing technology that takes the brightest engineers and managers to accomplish.
Objective is now to make Elon 56 billion dollars at the company and its employees
Electric vehicle maker Tesla has been hit by round after round after round of layoffs over the past month or so, to the degree that it's somewhat hazy exactly how many employees have been affected.
And the cuts keep piling up, with CNBC now obtaining government paperwork through a public records request that shows the company is slashing another 600 jobs at its facilities in California, running the gamut from factory workers to highly qualified engineers.
The implication of CNBC's reporting is that the full extent of Tesla's cuts may end up being drastically higher than the 10 percent headcount reduction CEO Elon Musk warned about at the outset of the cullings back in April. As the network points out, Musk claimed in an April earnings call that "inefficiency" at the company was running between 20 and 30 percent, suggesting that the seemingly ongoing sackings could come to total nearly a third of the company's previous workforce of more than 140,000 at the end of last year.
Just like other manufacturers lol!!! Other manufacturers that makes the trucks that actually builds and maintain this country and it's infrastructures and much more.
ask the 14,000 people fired just recently and the 600 more, and it keeps growing. tesla is a failing operation...not so innovative or important. Others are passing it, and making stuff better for less. And making other vehicles that people actually want.
@@cengeblike the 80% staff reduction at Twitter/X, maybe the people weren't needed.
I wonder how much weight does the cyber truck add and i wonder if they just replaced or make another version where it more affordable with typical material of the other models.
I wanted to know how voltage sources are connected in parallel?
Will the sources not generate heat?
Grateful tp elucidate as I cannot simulate the same circuit in multisim?
Thank you
Could the extra space be accommodations for a future lfp pack?
Thanks for this video. Seems like Tesla did not give the correct information for AH when listing to EPA since they indicated it was a 6p pack based on 150AH and 25ah cells.
Your recording that on video tape Sandy. Your a funny older guy. Still using video tapes 😂. Your the man.
He also leaves his phone "off the hook". BTW; "Your" and "You're" are different.
There is a thing i have been wondering about.
Are the 7p rows of cells alternating with positive side up/negative side up, or how is the serial connection achived?
It looks like all the cells have the vent pointing down (up in the upside down pack).
essentially the entire case is the negative side (including the top of the can around the coin), and the coin on top is the positive, and to make a serial connection you make a connection between the case and the coin. this can be done entirely from one side, and the Cells all have the same orientation.
@@unitrader403 ah, so the cells all have both negative and positive connection done on the exposed end, with positive connection in the center of the cell, and the negative connection on the perimeter?
@@peterhelmer396 If you look at an 18650 from a laptop or cordless tool, I think you will see what @unitrader403 means. The very center "button" and the perimeter of the cell can be accessed from a single side because the outer layer extends from end to end. Most battery packs will grab the negative off the bottom and the positive off the top, just like the AAAs in your tv remote. But with careful buss routing, looks like they grab both (+) & (-) from the "top" of the cell.
@@peterhelmer396 yep, thats it. you could word it better than me :D
This video helps understand the construction of the 4680: czcams.com/video/VEBY7rEUZiI/video.html
👍
At 18:30 I'd love to know what's up with the old SeeBee we keep glimpsing in the background and if Sandy's a pilot?
We have a video about it on our channel.
@@MunroLive Cool! Thanks I'll look for it.
Tom Prucha, my hero, see you in a few weeks.
The cells don't look to be providing much structural rigidity to the pack. That void below them means they cant really resist any lateral bending forces.
15:12 is it acetone
Just wondering, why not replace the flame retardant foam with a phase change material, that wicks out the heat faster. This would drastically improve thermal runaway(achilles heel of all BEVs, apart from the fact battery pack integrity being number one cause of totalling an otherwise perfect BEV, with minor accident damage) protection. It could also make recovery and recycling of the packs easier. Not sure, if any such material exist with low levels of toxicity from the resulting decomposition by products🤔. Anyways interesting content as always. The Ad portion is rather enjoyable, and adds variety.❤👍
There are food grade Phase Change Materials (Factor uses them). The problem is always tuning PCMs for temperature range and volumetric thermal capacity. Not to mention the extra weight...
Because the foam is structural?
probably because the foam is also electrical insulation. if two cell cases from diffrent rows touch you have an internal short circuit in the pack.
TESLA BMS is very Efficient , NOT NEEDED.
Its probably an intumescent foam material that acts as a fire/flame barrier. They expand to many times their volume when heated by fire, insulating and impinging the spread of flame any further.
Interesting Munro reports max cell voltage at 4.2 and the max voltage as 806. The Tesla released figure is 816V for the pack, tbus 4.25V for the cell.
Those of us with Teslas can feel confident that Tesla is continually setting the bar higher and higher on their products. We may not have the latest tech, but we can feel confident that our vehicles are at the leading edge mechanically and will get software updates indefinitely (hoping even for another 20 years!)
Anyone have a lower number than 271/825 from the Y pack?
The S stands for strings. The P to Parallel. That means each cell sees 1/7 of the full current, unless the other half is in parallel, but it may be in series to reach 700V tange
Pretty sure S = series
You can mill off the back side of the pack(actually top) and then CO2 blast from there.
Sounds that way , a messy setup.
Guys there is a lot of chatter in the community on the relative success of the 4680 cells. Do they have the energy density Tesla claimed on Battery Day? What's their charge and discharge rate? What's the thermal capabilities of the pack under peak charge and discharge? Many folks are saying the 4680 project at Tesla has been a disaster and that the product isn't nearly as good as competitors and hence Tesla will likely be sourcing its 4680 cells from other companies in the future. You have the cells and pack in hand. What's your take?
Tesla should buy arcimoto and make some twisted make it to robotaxi easyway!
Hi Tom, I understand it will be covered in more detail in the future, but wondering if you could touch on the basics of how the pack re-organizes itself from 2x400v to 1x800v depending on charger capabilities? Is there a large contactor that makes and breaks the two halves or something? Thanks for the analysis.
YES , large Full Length mechanical SWITCH .
@@markplott4820 Interesting!
Yup there is a giant DPDT contactor in the battery electronics bay. It was shown off on one of the Tesla Interviews a while back. I assume they sequence power so that it never has to break 800V just block 800V or conduct 1000+amps. This would save a ton of space by eliminating spark-arresters and most contact wear.
@@martylawson1638 Wow, fascinating. That is one big "switch"! The mechanics alone would be an interesting deep dive.
Yes, it's 2 more contactors. This is not a big switch. See this video for photos of the DPDT switch: "Jason's 3-day Exclusive with the Cybertruck - The Carmudgeon Show Cammisa & Derek Tam-Scott - Ep 122" at about 31 min into thev video. It can either switch the 4x 200 V modules in series, or it can swith them in a 2s2p configuration.
If the Cybertruck uses a 48 volt battery, how do I get a new battery if the original one wears out. The 12V batteries in the HOT southwest routinely dries up after 48 months here.
It's a Cybertruck specific 4Ah battery that weighs less than 5 pounds.
Yes, interested to see how well that goes as well
@@blogg9922 which then i doubt that its lead acid and is likely designed to last the life of the vehicle.
How different is this 'structural battery pack' different to a non structural one? It looks identical.
That answers my frustration of why they didn't just add more cabin space with the extra buffer
It hit me while watching this: do you guys have any fire mitigation in your building? Seeing those packs disassembled and sitting around admittedly "damaged" from disassembly, I'd hate to see Munro and Associates burned down! If that were my place, I don't know if I'd store those things in anything but a temporary outbuilding far away from everything else.
They've been discharged to the point of not being dangerous enough to start any real fire.
Tom is great, smart and knowledgeable and really good on camera.
Edison Motors needs to partner with Monroe and Associates
EDISSON motors is Fraudulent.
It is good to see the Cybertruck battery is in some ways remarkably unremarkable. That means technology is converging and hopefully economy of scale comes into play to make it more affordable.
I wonder if it would be possible to sand blast that polyurethane off. the sand should not conduct electricity, but defending on how hard that urethane it, it may not be enough.
192S7P = 1344 LFP cells. Nice!
Tesla 4680 cells are NMC chemistry not LFP
Are these batteries recyclable or is it landfill?
Recyclable to +98%. This is common knowledge by now. They freeze the whole pack and put it through a grinder.
👋👍
I'm surprised they didn't use a high-hardness high-rigidity material flush against the cells for the bottom protection.
NOT needed, since Thickest part is DOWNSIDE and adequate for most off road.
UNPLUGGED makes Extreme bottom plate f/ Cybertruck.
@@markplott4820 I'm just saying i'd imagine they'd have had no thick part.
If they're not repairable or recyclable then perhaps they could be used to fuel power stations through incineration? 🔥
Ffs
The Tesla fan boys have been saying that Tesla could double stack the pack to add more cells. Finally an expert has stated that they cannot without going up into the vehicle compartment.
If the battery pack is the most expensive part of the EV, why isn’t it serviceable/fixable or am I missing something?
What is the mAH and total wH per cell?
Reason I ask....
Model Y 4680 - 67.6kWh, 838 Cells, 80.66wH per cell.
Cyberbeast - 122.4kWh, 1344 Cells, 91.07 wH per cell.
Cell capacity is improving. Are they the same base chemistry?
After Battery Day my predictions were
High Nickel 4680 - 120wH
Nickel 4680 - 110wH
Iron 4680 - 80wH
Knowing they probably will never make a iron based 4680.
@@motofunk1 Easy to calculate.
Whole pack of Cybertruck is about 123,000 Wh made of 1344 cells. So 92 Wh/cell.
A cell has 3.63 V nominal (see Excel sheet with assumptions), so about 25 Ah per cell.
Finally: please correct the spelling of your units. Not "wH" but "Wh" (watt hours). Not "mAH" but "Ah" (amp hours).
Cybertruck has Gen2 4680. Base chemistry is likely the same (NMC-811 cathod, no silicone in anode), but they made improvements on Cybercell to get more active material in: redesigned end caps (more flat), redesigned thinner can, so jelly roll a little higher and a little longer. See videos by the Limiting Factor for comparisons.
@@MooseOnEarthjust curious but what’s ur estimated Wh/Kg for the battery ?
@@junioo3692 123,000 Wh / 722 kg = 170 Wh/kg. Somewhere in that range.
170 Wh/kg at pack level for Cybertrucks 123 kWh battery confirmed by Tesla Battery Pass. See Tesla Impact Report 2023.
1:00 Nope, that is not a ball bearing, that is a ball FROM a ball bearing.
Would be interested to see how the 400/800v wiring/contactors are setup and rated.
Now HOW? Do I recycle this -> greetings from Alu recycling plant where we recycle copper and batteries as well.
Got a grinder?
Anyone see Rich Rebuild's video from like yesterday,? I can't beleive how bad the insurance industry is with BEVs. I wanna hear what Sandy thinks about this
I saw it, great video, looks like lots of opportunity for smart mechanics willing to learns more about batteries. I wonder if Tesla insurance will do a better job of repairing theses
My Model 3 costs about the same as a Toyota Corolla to insure.
Maybe a bit of a big ask. I would like to hear about how the CT battery handles failed cells. How does the BMS measure and charge a single cell. How much does the truck tell you about the battery and its cells in maintenance mode?
try READING the Tesla CT repair MANUAL.
@@markplott4820 While the manual may cover this at some level I don't expect it to cover it at an engineering level.
With 2 400v half packs, could you dynamically switch between them during charging to limit heat buildup? That would limit degradation during fast charging, and/or allow you to maintain peak charging rates longer.
I thought the same thing....
Won't make a difference. If your taking the same power to half the cells they would heat up twice as fast..
Has he explained already why a car wash can brick the CT?
Can you speak about the cybertruck issues theirs lots unwarranted hate.
That's nothing new for Tesla. The difference is it used to just be from the right because of big oil. Now it's from the left too because democrats absolutely hate that Elon isn't pushing the woke/communist agenda.
Is the green foam as flammable as the pink foam?
Sandy looks bored? or tired. did you guys do this right after lunch? haha
He looked like he wanted to punch Tom for stealing his thunder
Any comentary on the video claiming to be a Cybertruck battery fire. Seems to follow the out gassing explained in this video.
The gas is escaping through the trey.
and pop out Valves.
Strange to see Sandy so silent in such a long video XD. That only happens when the specialist talk xD.
Where is yours entusiasm went? Is Caresoft troubling you?
Sandy, it would be nice for you to get one cell to Jordan.
@ 7:53 make some shorts😅 and Tell that again :p 😊
1344 cells??? Come on Elon it should have been 1337
Please do an episode explaining why various panels are coming loose and in some cases, falling off.
Impressive that they've found a way to make the Cybertruck battery even less repairable than the already completely unrepairable Model Y battery. Tesla once again confirming by their actions that any claims to environmental friendliness go out the window as soon as manufacturing costs can to be reduced.
Why does Tesla use a serpentine cooling loop touching the sides of the batteries and Rivian uses a plate on the top or bottom (prior Munro video)? Tesla would be able to fit more batteries in the Cybertruck, if it used plate cooling.
Tesla's solution is better for cooling and the battery pack will last longer as a result..
7:12
So what kind of performance would you be expected from the electric truck that Tesla boss Elon Musk said could survive the apocalypse? Probably a pretty serious amount of flex, right? Wrong, it struggled to get up just one notch in the test ramp before its wheels started spinning.
So glad that my Model Y has the battery where the cells are not glued together in order to stop any chances of repair. This is the biggest joke with Tesla - the entire pack has to be destroyed if one single cell goes bad. What happened with saving the planet?
Finally, guy with some common sense here. I'm laughing from a guys who holding whooping 4s packs in few kilovolt PPE.
super cool. no reusable components in the batttery so when it dies you can burn a ton of energy recycling it, after burning a ton of energy training the ai that’s gonna burn a ton of energy while it runs. So much for tesla’s eco mission. It’s just full speed planet be damned if it means satiating wall street.
I do not understand why they (Munro) do not exhaust the battery pack (discharge it down to zero) before disassembling it. I realize they want to pull some voltages, but leaving the pack fully charged just seems an unnecessary risk. Even if it was fully discharged they would need to take precautions when handling it, but would it not be safer to discharge the pack as fully as possible first? Hell, put the Cybertruck on some jacks and let it run until it dies no matter how long that would take. Actually, since the Cybertruck allows the truck to send electricity to several outlets just plug in a couple air conditions and run them till it dies... just wondering.
I think the simple answer is yes it would be safer ... but perhaps the difference between 326V and 806V, each at ~ 1600 amps, is like the difference between infinity and 2x infinity. Either way, that pack discharges thru you, you are dead
EV batteries never go to zero volts. Zero charge is still somewhere around 3V. The battery management system will not let it run past the minimum value. Lithium batteries fail rapidly when actually discharged to 0V. Even if you presume you've discharged a pack all the way, you still take all the safety precautions. It's another form of, "I was sure the gun was unloaded."