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Why do laminated Bows break?
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- čas přidán 2. 05. 2022
- Sometimes we have to put our finger where it hurts. A broken bow is such a point. But what is the biggest reason for a laminated bow to break or to delaminate? It is almost always user mistake and here most often wrong stringing of the bow. In this video I will explain a few of my thoughts on this topic.
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What a nice timing for you to upload this tips! I'm getting a korean laminated bow so this is very helpful. Thank you so much!
Now I have to watch you more while I am learning how to take care of my bow right, thank you for teaching about taking care and stringing a bow the right way,I have laminated bows and you showed me the right way to string them thank you teacher
Very informational. My Assyrian bow 50# was giving me trouble while stringing and unstringing. Now I just use the stringer. Excellent video and information.
We only have a fibreglass Yarha, and a snake bow, so fairly idiot proof for a beginner. 🤣 great information, thanks Armin 👍
This video was a great help to understanding the limitations of such bows made in this fashion.
A hat tip and a cup of coffee comes your way for sharing such knowledge with us! Cheers my friend.
thank you
I learned something new from this video. Never seen one of those twin loop stringers or the wide stance method.
Always use the first step thro method you demonstrated.
Thank you
This video just came in time! After your recommendation I bought an AJ archery Korean takedown bow! I love it so much!
Now with your videos I can practise!
This video was exactly what I needed....I noticed that my bow sometimes twisted when i was stringing and I have been very careful about that problem so seeing I can avoid the issue by just using a different method it just seems logical to change. I use a Daylite Phoenix bow so I think i am probably ok but better safe than sorry. The Daylite Phoenix was bought because I saw it on this channel, great recommendation I love it.
Great vid as usual :)
Regarding the Step Through method, in which one end rest on the thigh...
I saw a Korean vid showing: LEAN FORWARD, even more than Armin does,
so your shoulder is in line with the "arch of the bow".
Obviously that reduces the risk of pulling the bow "sideways from the arch of the bow"...
Koreans use that method, as they use very short bows,
but it is also great for the much longer Manchu bows, at least for those with fiberglass limbs.
But in that Korean vid the archer did not place the limb near the handle on the rear side of the other thigh,
but on the "soft part of the buttock"...
That brings the "arch plane of the bow" closer to the shoulder, when bending forwards,
with the pulling arm pointing much more to the rear...
That method also makes stringing strong bows much easier,
as you use the strength in the entire upper body, instead of bending your arm.
Some use another name for that method, but I can not translate that name.
You might call it the "thigh method"
Thank you sir, your videos are very useful for us
Damn, I wish I had this information three months ago, the back of one of my bows splintered off, and a week later while stringing my Alibow Yarha Manchu Bow (the same one you reviewed around that time) using the step through method I heard a small pop. I've been afraid to use it too much since then. Definitely going to start using a stringer on all my bows, thank you for the lesson.
Very good topic.
Three major issues with all laminations.
1. Stack any number of similar length material and bend the stack over a curve. The layers closest to the bottom are wrapping over a smaller diameter. Top of the stack a larger diameter from the layer beneath it. This creates shearing / sliding forces between layers. It wants to shear and degrade the glue/bonding material over time.
2. Quality of the glue used, and the quality of thoroughly applying the glue to both glued surfaces.
3. Even application of clamping pressure during the clamping/gluing process.
4. Similarity of glued materials. A low density wood will not glue bond as well to a very dense wood due to differences of wood fiber.
All of these apply to all laminations
I do the last one. Where it’s above my knee. But I’m going to make a stringer and use a stringer. Another amazing video sir.
Me too. I just feels safer for some reason
"Why do laminated Bows break?" - for a sec the taught crossed my mind that we'll see some demonstrations. Like: "See? They break! *smashing bows like guitars in rock concerts*" haha
hahaha
Friend of mine bought a laminated bow three weeks ago .. yesterday the bow was broken .. I think the problem is because of the deflection of the arrow .. maybe also because of the Gpp .. but he uses FF string ... not sure if SIYAH is the reinforced type or not..
Well done 👏
I'll be sharing this with my customers
Amazing advice! Thank you, Armin.
Thank you for the video. I learned even more than I expected. Very useful.
Thanks for sharing Master Armin 🙏🏻
There are a few bowyers who make and specialized in laminated bows here in Indonesia. Still have doubts, not because of their skill, but since Indonesia is a tropical country. However, I might have tried them later (when I have the money), thanks to your tip Mr. Armin :)
Malta is hot and humid too, as long as you treat your bow well, no problem
@@ArminHirmer So I heard, thx for the info once again. Hope you could review Indonesian laminated bows (if someone ever send you one) 😂
@@Q44bs AJ is on it and he will send me one of course once he finalised them
@@ArminHirmer the famous one at Indonesian laminated bow maker is Master Archery
uhhh, I did not change the title in the video :D :D sorry for that
YESS YESS YESS! There was huge arguement in a FB group about it, and many of the guys said, i'm such overloving a brand, while it was clearly customers faults, he broke 3 bows in the same exact ways :'D QUALITY bows.
Many people are also shooting too light of arrows, low grains per pound.
They shoot flatter and faster, and are sometimes cheaper, so attractive to many people.
Limb vibrations due to very light arrows probably cause more cumulative internal damage to the adhesive than most other everyday abuse.
I try to stay at or above 10gpp for a quieter, lower vibration setup. And just practice for slower speed and arcing trajectory.
Great tips and advice. 👍
Molto chiaro ed interessante come sempre.
Some good advice sir. Thanks.
As others have written, the AF archery laminated bow that my friend bought broke in a short period of time. Over the last few years, other brands of laminated bows that my friends bought are ok.
This is a very nice compilation of things to do for your bow ☺️👍
Thank you!
PS: This AF bow is very nice looking 🥰😇
Never underestimate human stupidity!
I've been using the method for longbows (bowtip against shoe) with my recurves for the last 45 years. It works fine; no twisting or other problems, provided (especially for the recurves) you push the other limb away from you. Don't pull the centre of the bow towards you. The size of recurves which is related to the size of the archer, will bring the free bowtip right to your eye pretty fast.
btw Thanks Armin for always showing us nice bows!
Thanks for video, I found it, because I search why my Korean laminated bow just snapped. It was Kaya Black K 45# 46". It was a sunny day around 30 degrees today. I left it at the shooting position and went to collect arrows from the target. When I returned in few minutes the bow had odd shape and lower arm collapsed under arch pressure and folded inwards while the bow was still maintaining pressure from the chord. I've noticed a crack near handle on the lower limb and it expanded in shape was bulkier at that area then upper limb.
sorry to hear
Thx for the tipps - my Grozer Biocomposit should be coming soon and I don`t want anything to happen to it!
Fantastic thanks!
I just had a recurved bow from ali bow snap in half at the handle, I believe it was a defect but I cannot be sure. Took it out of storage after a year or so went to sting it and heard a big crack, I assumed it was a limb but as I kept flexing it the handle gave out
My Southwest Scorpion Longbow just cracked right at he arrow rest. I think the handle was too thin for 60lbs.
Sadly my Sarmat Hankyuu also cracked earlier this year. :(
Yeeey new content!
Excellent
Bottom limb popped on my déerseeker warrior takedown while shooting, was on the draw slight creek and popped the laminate off the belly,. 2 months old and about 1000 or so shots 😥😥😥😥
On one of your upcoming podcasts it would be interesting to have grozer as a guest!
I really need a 47.6 47.8 inch sting
For my tatar from af archery
There's also a stringing method, where you do the same as the 2nd version an step through, only in sitting position. Well... that might be the 'sit through method' then, just fitting for a lazy archer - like me lol
I wish someone loved me, as much as armin loves his snake bow. Haha love you man. Anyone knows where can I find snake bow for adult here in California please ?
Please Armin, what is the optimal humidity to store laminated bows in?
Completely unrelated, but, what is the name of the AF archery's bow you showed in this video?
So the fiberglass bows from Alibow will not have much of an issue with limb twist by using the step-through method? I have always tried to be careful with my step-through method but I will definitely change if there's a chance of it breaking. My only bow I've got is a Qinghai, so I have to make it last!
always be careful, no matter which bow. but yes fiberglass is not so "fragile"
I've been very careful in my use of the step-through method, which I learned from your vids. I push the upper arm of the bow with my open palm so I can easily sense the exact direction that the bow arm wants to go. By your new emphasis on the use of a stringer, am I to understand that the step through method is inherently damaging over time, that one simply cannot do it precisely enough to prevent eventual damage no matter how practiced the archer is with it?
depends on the bow, but the lower limb over the ankle will almost always give a little twist to it
@@ArminHirmer As I use short Korean bows I usually do it over the knee. Is it worse or inherently bad? The Freddie archery manual showed it so I assumed it was safe but I hate to think I'm damaging it.
@@skyereave9454 over the knee is fine, as Freddie shows and as I showed at the end. Best way to string your korean bow
Very helpful video! Question though, what is a Snake bow?
a one piece plastic bow from ArcRolan, I did several videos
@@ArminHirmer Oh thank you, I shall take a look!
Hi Armin,
I have a 40 lb Bear Montana longbow and I have heard that I don’t need to unstring it provided it’s hanging a particular way.
Should I be unstringing it? Sorry if it’s a dumb question; I’m a relative newbie when it comes to traditional archery.
Thank you!!
some bow builders tell you that you dont need to unstring their bows
@@ArminHirmer Thanks for the reply! Love your channel.
I wouldn't leave it strung for more than a day or two, especially if you have the brace height high. Love my bear bows .
There's a reason why I use my stringer-- less likely to damage the bow and it makes it easier, anyway.
You don´t mention the manchuway of stringing, wich I have good experience with. Any problems with that technique Armin?
ohh I think you mention it in the end of the video. Sorry :)
@@larsj.falkenberg6180 :)
I treat my bows like baby. I accumulate many bow over the years and love all of them.
Hi Armin, I didn't catch who is making this double buckle stringer for oriental recurve. Can you precise where you got that? I currently use a normal trigger like the bearpaw, one on the tip of siyha, the other on the upper limb. Is it bad for a heavily recurve oriental bow ('Horsebow' ;-) )?
Alibow had one. The one I showed is from Archers Tidbits
@@ArminHirmer Thanks a lot. Seems rather easy to make in fact. I'll try to sew one with some seatbelt lanyard and first test it on the ET-4 in case that would be a very bad idea :-).
I broke my Grozer biocomposite cause i talk with my friends while unstring it. 1 look away and it twists in my hand and snap down and break the composite.
Yo Armin, what's the reference for that kind of saddle stringer with 2 loops instead of 1 loop/1pocket? Never could find one with 2 loops in any local archery shop...
I got mine with the Emu Bow from Outlaw Bows, Australia
@@ArminHirmer Thanks for the tip!
@@KroM234 excellent video armin! dave mead made a bowstringer for his siyah bows like the double loop one you showed. He used leather though if memory serves me correct, believe he has a video on his channel about it. he made this several years ago though
Armin, you jinxed me. A few days after watching this my favourite bow delaminated during a standard draw. Now I
have to learn how to repair it. Any tips?
Depends on the damage, usually one can fix it with epoxy (but I am not good at that)
@@ArminHirmer . I certainly intend to give it a go. Nothing to lose by trying and learning something new is always well worthwhile, even if I screw it up. 😀
My Buck Trail Hayk 35# delaminited a few centimeters on the lower limb close to the handle. So I don´t think it was the stringing, but the wood or the glue..
I had no problem to get a different one on warranty. No problem.
But now I am interested in fiberglass bows: The ones with wooden handle and siyah and pure fiberglass limbs
Up to now I was quite sceptical and thought they are less stable than laminated ones, because they have weak spots on the connections between wood and fiberglass.
@Armin: Am I wrong? Are those bows more tough than laminated ones?
when you get a good one, they are :) Alibow has good ones, I like the bending fiberglass bows from AJ Archery
@@ArminHirmer i see.
I think the delamination at the handle may also be caused by applying torque (too often or too much).
Is this also a weak point for fiberglass bows?
But I will try one of those as soon as possible.
@@chmux I think it’s too much stress just under the handle is the highest tension in a bow, a little flaw I. Glue or wood and then maybe torque… can happen. Fiberglass is more durable. Look at the Korean bows, so fragile limbs but torque is no problem
Where can I buy a horse bow stringer?
They don’t exist, use step through method
I’ve broken 3 bows in the past 2 months while drawing them, is it me?
First bow, top limb broke at 32” draw, second replacement bow, back lamination cracked while drawing.
Company said there was a problem with the run of bows.
Second replacement bow was even a different model but same weight, just broke at 32” draw on bottom limb.
Very frustrated, these bows claim 34” max draw, last one was in 3K carbon all of them over 70lbs@32”, the company has been good to replace them so far, but is it me?
Years ago i paid about 340 USD for a High Quality Laminated Horse bow and i won't mention the Brand just to be fair because i'm still not sure if it was me or the Bow maker, because it might be me then i'm doing injustice to the manufacturer. But i will NEVER Take that Chance again! Money completely Wasted!
Laminated Bows are very Sensitive to many things as Armin here mentioned, in Medieval times if they had Fiberglass bows they would use it in wars instead of Laminated Bows because it's Tough with a longer Usage life and more Reliable plus not Affected much by Elements and Weather
They used horn and sinew composite bows that are an order of magnitude more finicky than laminated bows, this is just not true. Fiberglass bows are pretty much all slow compared to laminated ones.
Can I store my bow sideways like how people sleep sideways in stead of the way you show in video at 7:43, will it cause any bad thing to a bow?
should be fine, I do the same :)
@@ArminHirmer Understood ,thank you.
How times have changed! My uncle showed me the step through method back in the 60’s ! Hook the string at the bottom limb step over the bow and hook behind the ankle and hip and pull down top limb till the string lines up with the tip then connect it!
am I supposed to believe this guy's name is Arm & Hammer?
10:40
Have you used Manipuri bow ever?
Indian archers use the bow for daily practice. Very cheap and reliable.
nope, never had one in my hands
For performance laminated bow, for durability solid fiberglass bow.
and a good fiberglass bow is not far behind in performance
Agreed
@@ArminHirmer yup, for region with high humidity is more recommend fiberglass bow.👍 (but it's not wrong if have laminate bow as long as can handle extra maintenance)
Lazy Archer t-shirts 😁
hehe yessssss
You cannot twist a longbow, the thick limbs won't do it . I've been using the push pull method with my olympic and hunting recurves without any problems for 30 years, you only have to know what you're doing .
of course, but most beginners dont :)
Your first bow should be super cheap and crappy, kinda like your first car.
Cord/belt stringers are traditional and go waaaay back. The Turkish kemand is that, just used differently for much heavier bows. The alternate step-through you showed works for long and short bows: Kaya used to show it in their manual. Max draw means different things to different bow makers. For some it's 90 degrees, for others 60, for some where it starts to stack. Anything can break, and you can break anything no matter who made it and how much it cost. Have fun and be safe.
never had a bow where the max draw was mentioned in any kind of degrees
Toparchery 😂
the english wrongbow is the most primitive 😂😂
Bc they didn’t make the bow so they don’t care how they treat it 😊
I am impressed by the level of faulty conclusions through traditional ritualization here!!!
The step-through method is in contrary to what is said in this video, not only the safest, but also the most powerful method to string up even very heavy weight bows...
Here is HOW it is done:
You should keep an OPEN hand on the back of the top of the bow, preventing the limbs to twist, and you should push with your hip on the riser to bend the bow, don´t bend the tips... It is the most simple way, the most secure way, and you don´t need any extra equipment other than your body...
Learn to make the step-through method. It is fast, safe, and easy!!
Another faulty statement in this video is that it is the user and the stringing that is the most common cause for a bow to break. It is certainly not so. The bow breaks because of irregularities in the wood, if it is a wooden bow, and because of errors in making the bow, etc. It is very rarely the user that cracks the bow...
The owner of the above video obviously doesn´t want to get reclaims and tries to blame the user...
Well, within 2 months two bows broke after I shot them several years without problems, a turk and a hungarian. At both the 'biolaminated' horn cracked, the turk across in several cracks, the hungarian along with one long crack. It is surprising as I did nothing else than ever. So I think, they age somehow. As they are some 5 years old, I will not complain the builder, but ... I never trusted this somehow ominous technic. My first bow of this hungarian guy, a fiber hun from 2005 still shoots, also a laminated assyrian from 2008.
Age, maxing out the drawlenght, also Biocomposite bows before 2017-8 were more fragile, than nowadays. Good fiberglass bows are literally working for generations. I have a 24 years old Tóth hungarian fiberglass bow. Was made for 40pounds back then, now it pulls about 52 pounds, it became stiffer, max draw dropped from 28" to 27" with a slight stack (i won't force it to 28" anymore). I don't shoot the bow since about..5 years or so, ive got it in 2006. I needed to change string 2 times, leather cover worn out really badly, but it does work still.