Why I Left Amazon
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 13. 05. 2021
- I spent 4 years at Amazon - In this video I breakdown how Amazon pays corporate employees, and why it's not financially worth it to stay after 4 years.
Amazon employees commonly refer to the 4 year mark as "the cliff" - a time where compensation effectively gets cut in half because stock from a person's four year tour of duty dries up.
To those on the outside (and for anyone who's worked at Amazon) this compensation cliff makes no sense, but from a corporate perspective it ensures (or at least tries to ensure) that there's no stagnant employees.
What are your thoughts on the cliff? - Agree, disagree?
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Just last night I made the final decision to quit working for Amazon, never to return. Its not worth it.
just please answer, is it true analytics are up everyones ass all the way to c-suite
Totally agree
â@@Anonymous-nj2owyes
Because of the vesting schedule, the four year cliff at Amazon is particularly brutal, but the truth is that at almost every company, you are going to be worth more on the free market than internally after about 2 years. Maybe it shouldn't be this way, but it's a near-universal truism.
Yes but at none of those companies you can expect a 30% salary decrease from one year to an other :D
Why does no one else record videos like you. You get straight to the point its awesome
I love this concept of "pressure testing" the job market with your abilities/skills! I'm gonna start using that concept of pressure testing more in everything. I've always seen it as the more I explore and look for experiences/knowledge the more I learn but the pressure test concept is so much more concise and to the point.
Thanks Frank!
As a current employee at Amazon I can attest to everything he is saying. Even though I an a tier 1 AA I have been given responsibilities on the ship dock in leadership positions that some days they put you through hell. Imagine for a second that you are being pulled 16 different ways all at once. They thin down the staff to the point that one person might be responsible for 3 other positions.
Love your videos John, thank you for sharing
Wow, this one definitely had me glued to the screen! Super insightful man!
I love the breakdown on why you left Amazon and why it makes sense in the long run. I think more people should stop and think if staying or leaving brings more value. It definitely helps to hear if from someone in a great position still deciding to move on to grow. Keep bringing that great content!
Appreciate the insights john!
Hey thank you for this insight.
Good info. Studying for AWS Developer now. Was curious about this.
Helpful information đ. Thank you đ€
Great video! Thank you for this!
Thank you for being honest, That is very true I thought it's just me but I have many friends working there as well and they all not happy.
This analysis is valid for any type of job at Amazon, even if salaries can be widly different.
Thanks perfect analysis
Hey John, love your content!
Thanks for sharing
Super insightful!
This is incredibly insightful- Iâd love to be in a similar position one day as I start my PM journey!!
Great video!
Thanks for sharing John! I've always wondered what it was like working there. Great content.
He is full of it i dont have any problems period
I found it like training for the olympics to get in only to work like a charity fun run. If you have prior work life experience, a remote sense of responsibility and decision making authority, then you will find Amazon a challenging environment to scale down to.
Watching this video and reading these comments as an L1 FC associate has me asking myself why iâm even here, but it was interesting none the less.
Personally, I found after getting promoted the 4 year cliff vanished and my workload has remained relatively constant (gradually increasing with my skillset).
This idea of constantly changing and moving on is great and sounds fitting in some of these tech jobs but not necessary stable for the general working family. Someone with a few kids likely wants something that can cover their family for a while versus having to constantly switch things up every 4 years. And it's also easier when you're still younger; obviously that's what companies like Amazon are betting on.
đŻ
Absolutely, I'm 43, ex-USAF, and currently employed by Amazon for 3.5 years. While I love the ability to move around and be versatile, I also prefer having job and financial security especially navigating through this tough economy and inflation. I think I saw a box of precooked bacon for $10, it's been $5 or less since forever. I currently have *NO BACON!* đ„âčđ€
Great video John. All the very best for your new role.
Question:
At work I mostly hear things such as: âTeamâ, âAlignmentâ, âInspirationâ, âDrive the changeâ
At any one-on-one conversations I mostly hear âMoneyâ, âBonusâ, âStockâ, âCashâ.
Is it because of our own hypocrisy or companiesâ management?
Thank you for the insight! Currently pending an interview with AWS. I would guess AWS works the same? Is it the same for IT network/ software engineers?
Damn, I wish I found this video sooner. Just hit the 4year cliff and took on a management role that landed me with lateral pay, heightened responsibility and a much longer workdayđ
How many hours/wk you work? Moving to the loop round but dont want to ask that to one of the panelist.
My son went from working hard on a hay farm to being a package driver for Amazon for one dollar more an hour. He loved it at first but that love quickly wore off. As he kept making his delivery time goals each week, they kept pushing him more and more without any bonuses. It was never good enough. He was working 12-hour shifts. He was exhausted, going up flights upstairs carrying packages daily.
The better he was, the more they worked him until he completely gave out. Once he tripped on a step and he was terrified to tell management so he wouldn't get yelled at n get a mark against him or get fired. I cleaned his elbow and super glued his elbow skin together and put butterfly stitches on it send sent him back to work.
A year later, after 2 years of no raises, tighter goals to meet, no recognition for safety, and reaching his goals, he gave up n quit.
This Statement is from KM on an Amazon Prime Commercial.
5 months ago
@@13allesteros Very good, yes you're right !â! I'm so glad you figured that out.
Hey after you figure out that recipe for Ice, you're mama gave you, I know you will be so happyđ€Ł
@13allesteros Your Right mama jokes that's week, that only works if you have a mama, so sorry for you're lossâčïž
@@13allesteros Oh, Bless your poor heart, you trying to be one of those
((Edgy Comedian Types. ))đ ...Okay...
Most people, unlike you, are not willing to have that much Jeff Bezo's Special Space Cowboy
Juice in their mouth just to get AHEAD.đ
@@13allesteros Oh but you had jokes though, what's the problem?
It's okay like a Grandmother making a wedding dress, we all run out of material sometimes. đ
@@13allesteros Good yes that's the letter K, very good, here's a cookie đȘ
Anyone who joined in the last 2 years is likely out in 2 years as the stock has fallen 40-50%.
Shockingly honest. Thank you for this! Have you retired?
Love this! At Amazon myself for almost a year and considering taking a lateral transfer to another department in my office to learn more skills and become more well rounded for when I apply out, in comparison to taking a promotion within my own department for the reasons you stated. Amazon seems like a great opportunity to get some good success stories and compensation until that cliff arrives and itâs time to hit the road.
Oh dude don't even retail Wil yank you back the moment it's peak.
You're Goin to get a 3 to 6 month tenure and then you'll be stuck in retail for the next few years. Unless you can get the blue badge when applying don't even get your hopes up. I got shafted 4 times by communities with a 98%accuracy
@@hugovandyk3845 Well he's already in an office setting which likely means he's currently a blue badge and probably comfortable on the sales/ retail side. Not many FCs are hiring white badges for entry level unless you got hired temp/ seasonal like I was. Luckily they recently erected a Robotics facility in my town and I was able to transition during their launch period. As the OP stated these tech companies are no longer looking for career guys to mine their wealth. They fully intend to recycle the talent, out w/ the old in w/ the new.
âFrom any number of employer⊠I can get a massive raise and get new stock and get a bonus.â At eye-watering numbers like $300k TC, I think this is only true in Big Tech and âunicornâ tech companies. Very attainable for an experienced Amazon PM, but the wording makes it sound like this level of compensation can be found anywhere.
I just quit and Iâm joining a local food producer looking to take on the big guys. Canât wait til Feb to start!
They need more robots at amazon.. this is where I do see useful application for them.. I believe this is what Amazon Needs... to ease the workload and increase ethical practises/conditions over there... and more respect for the employees... its CRITICAL/ABSOLUTELY IMPORTANT...
At Google, the stock grant too vests over 4 years, but it vests evenly: 25% each year.
I assume bridge cash is a sign-on bonus bridging base compensation to the stock compensation. I would also think a higher base compensation and sign-on bonus would be preferable for lower total compensation because the company could essentially fire you prior to four years giving you zero equity compensation.
I have recently been offered a promotion at my company to a management position. The new role required to relocate to a new state.
Salary increase, however, was 10% only.
10% to move your familyâs lives and do 3X the amount of work.
Itâs often better to change a company than to be promoted at your existing place.
Doesnât make sense but thatâs the reality.
Did you ever consider having Amazon give you a "Dive and Save" counteroffer?
I subscribed so fast I didnt even notice
Please do a video on what type of companies will pay ex-Amazon employees more than Amazon? Which cities? Thank you.
Working as an L4 and higher, you can definitely take the knowledge and experience youâve learned from Amazon and apply it towards your future career. I was an L4 Loss Prevention Specialist and was on a mission to become an L5 Multi site Loss prevention site l, and yes it will be more work with more buildings to be charge of, so I had to think about what Iâll be making more based on what Iâm making now. Donât get me wrong everyone goal is to get promoted to make more money , but a boatload of more work and stress for a slight bump in salary just wasnât worth the extra stress and headache. Knowing what I have learned at Amazon during my time there, I just applied everything I had learned into a similar role at a different company as an L5, with higher pay without the boatload of extra stuff thrown at you. Amazon leadership positions do hold a lot of weight, so thatâs a plus altogether.
Weâre you going to get less stocks after 4 years so would mean a compensation pay cut?
This is super insightful, John! Thatâs really interesting and counterintuitive that you didnât feel it was worth it to get promoted and take on additional responsibility for a minimal pay increase. Best wishes in your new role/company!
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Thanks for your sharing, I'm going to reject the 3rd round of interview because of this. I already get an offer with good salary and RSU (25%-25%-25%-25%) and feel there're a lot of risk on Amazon's offer even it's possibly a little more than my current offer in total. Amazon RSU rule (5%-15%-40%-40%) is so stupid and I could foresee it will handcuff my valuable 4 years.
So what happens after the 4 years do you not get many more shares so your compensation goes down?
John, Iâve been following your channel and path. I muffed my Amazon interview for Sr PMT, after listening to you, Iâm not interested in reapplying. Also, I have interviews with AmEx Digital Labs coming up, what should I be aware of going into AmEx, if things go in my favor? Your thoughts are greatly appreciated!
What did you do for Amazon
Good for You batyushka John!!!
I think not only amazon , japan company mitsubishi also do that, with there was no share, no bonus, no wage increase and when you hit 4 year their toss everyone job at you cause everyone was already leaving and only me left. I decide too quit, Nov 21 was be my last time there before i reach total burnout.
I was T1 for 6.5 years, but they dropped all stocks & bonus pay - become not worth it for the bodily damage.
I have been at amzn since July 2017. The cliff happens bc you should be moving up, promo, by then. If not, you're not doing it right, aka not increasing your value, skills and therefore they want you out. If you are getting promo'd then the stock and base increase.
What did you do after Amazon? If you got another corporate job, did you land an offer before quitting?
Your decision makes complete sense to me.
I believe he started doing investing in real estate and he is doing really great at it!
It's a 4 year package as it's expected that they will have extracted as much value as they can from you in 4 years and you're likely to be done and move on, through burnout etc.... I completed 1 full cycle and decided I wanted different challenges.
Thanks John, great video as always. I am of the opinion that they keep giving the stock every year or atleast after you vested all of them they offered at the joining. Am i wrong?
As I understand it, no. The bulk is granted up front when hired. At least that's how it seems to work in the startup community with options.
The most honest story I heard about why someone left amazon.
I just sign a contract on ORM On Road Management I used to work in a workshop/ warehouse so this is big deal for me
This was really interesting! I'm thinking a lot about toxic corporate culture in general and struggling with accepting the boxes that we get put in as employees. Maybe that's not the exact issue you faced at Amazon but I think in general, it's all about these corporate systems that, a lot of times, are actually designed to work against us. Thanks for sharing you experience :)
How many hours a week were you working?
What title did you hold at Amazon?
I'm looking at Amazon right now (hence why I'm here). Thinking about it, I think I'm fine with the "4 years of making bank" followed by a change of scenery (if that's what it comes to). I have almost 10 years of experience now at a few different companies. Which means I'm already only spending 2-4 years at any one place before I move on to bigger and better opportunities. I guess it would be nice to be able to settle in somewhere throughout my 30's / 40's, but it makes total sense that these big tech companies want a constant stream of fresh faces with new ideas flowing through the revolving doors. I suppose it also protects them from dolling out massive salaries to people, only for them to ultimately "get comfortable" and no longer be that 'bright eyed new guy' bending over backwards for them. They'd rather have those guys get an automatic "pay cut" after 4 years and move on. I guess we'll all just play the game :)
Fine at individual contributor roles, but notice management at most companies has been there for years
what's annual increase with the base, 10%?
so what happens after 4 year cliff, if base was 150 and you get 40 shares in 4th year, what about 5th year?
They stop paying you well? How do they stop paying you well when youâre already paid well and even level up also has in increase of your already high salary. Sorry if I donât get if. Iâm a plebeian.
Iâm currently an L3 IT associate at Amazon so I am not eligible for stocks and from what I hear getting promoted internally is not really worth it. I only been here 6 months but I guess we will see what happens.
Came across that reality myself as well
@@S.B. What happened?
@@faithkidd5243 I did a few vids on the topic..the pay is DEFINITELY not what I thought it would be I was a tier 3 and getting paid more than my AM if I worked one overtime day and just about the same if I didn't. They deal with wayy to much stress and responsibility for their pay. My opinion. .
I left Amazon because of the hearing loss. Not from the machines, but from the music they blasted over the speakers. My place was oddly hell-bent on keeping the amp at an âoutdoor med. size festival concertâ volume, regardless of my complaints. Trivial, I guess but they lost a valuable and hard worker, and Iâm much happier at my new job.
I'm not saying your video isn't good, but if you don't plan on promoting or moving up you can't complain what a company pays you doing the SAME job after a few years. You can't expect endless raises in the same role. You have to move
Most companies do this. You can stay in your role as long as you want and get at least an annual raise of 3%. Each year.
Did you ever think to work for your government in the IT division?
Amazon screws the internal promotions
Do you think itâs worth it to go for the promotion from sde1 to sde2 or is it easier to get the promotion externally?
IMO easier to get SDE1 -> SDE2. I've seen New Grads do it in 1.5 years
What did you do at Amazon to make that kind of money?
Working as floor associate really sucks too. I wanna make the same move and leave that evil empire.
I used to work for a logistics company, the operations manager earned about 25 percent more than myself. But I worked 37 hours a week, he worked 55 hours a week, especially considering he was on call 24/7 basically. I was offered a similar job to his at the same company. But hour for hour, I already earned more than he did. Without any of his stress. They thought I was unambitious. I was just realistic
Does this apply to Amazon jobs worldwide UK to be precise or just the US?
Also does the employee need to buy the stocks by themselves or automatically enrolled on the Amazon stocks market ?
automatic
I got an offer from aws honeycode. Can you give me an insight of pressure of work for an l4 level?
Super helpful!!! Where are you headed
Hey Angelo! I moved to Sofi
Maybe im not understanding correctly, but your entry job paid $150k/year?
Did you well good for you. There is nothing wrong with amazon i been here 2 years now!!
This video is so helpful. I'm wondering how work life balance is at Amazon. I've heard horror stories from people and I'm not sure if one should accept a job offer from them
Hey Mary! My first two years can be best described as an absolute nightmare (I was on a counterfeit risk mitigation team which had a lot to do with it because we had to put out tons of fires).
- I switched teams for my 2nd two year tenure and had a much better time - great manager, cool initiatives - still lots of politics though - which drove me a bit insane - but the work life balance wasnât bad. The experience you have at any company largely will depend on your manager and managers manager.
I will say this though... I never ever want to go back to corporate (Amazon or elsewhere) Too many variables that canât be controlled and personal growth is dictated by incremental steps of a ladder. Get in to one of these companies - get paid well - live simply and get out as soon as you can. I view big tech as an accelerated means to an end - financial freedom.
how do u achieve financial stability then?
@@JohnMarty-uncommon Also, does it matter if an SDE wants to stay at Amazon in the same level for as long as they can without seeking always a promotion if theyâre good with their pay?
Even people that don't work for Amazon were telling me that they get all your good ideas and then fire you after just one year, so you are not vested with the company and then they don't have to pay you.
sir how get job in amazon
Awesome insights! Thanks! Now I understand why they reached out to me with the opportunity. I look like the next talent to recycle... đ
Yep. They get all your good ideas from you and then fire you after one year, so your not fully vested with the company.
Now amazon hit a level of profit ceiling, I doubt it would have the same growth as before. Therefore you should assess the market each year
I have a question about the "pressure testing" the job market with your skills. Can't it become an issue with doing that regularly? I feel like it can be a danger because it's not like it's a ton of companies which you would really want to work for. I'm worried that that the good companies is like 10% of the market. If you apply just for testing the waters, aren't you worried after a while (a year or two) you won't have much companies left?
I thought you were leaning towards appearing to be a "flight risk" or unreliable to current and potential employers which could also be the case. I say unless you're in a safe place where you'd be okay no matter what financially, you should probably not make any sudden moves until it's completely safe to do so. I gambled more back in the day, not so much now.
I would say, didn't you felt reasonable for a higher position where you would have more challenges and explain that to your manager? I feel like managers now days should always have a way of meaasuring their employees to be better asset them to the most valueable share withtin the company. Let's make an example as if you were a very good customer drive manager, would that makes sense to make your career growth goes to customer success ?
Genuinely curious. Looking for career change
The dislike is from the boss đ
It's the dirtiest place I've ever worked at. Honestly look further if you're thinking of signing that contract
đŻ he is telling the truth đ
How much more money an internal promo from a L5 to a L6 get
Very little
Yes, my girlfriend is level 4 and sheâs ending up taking a pay cut cuzz of lack of stocks
đŻ
I'm also ex-Amazon. Was there for just under 6 years. One point of perspective on the 4-year cliff, my understanding is that it's set up that way not only to stave off complacency, but it's in essence an "up or out" dynamic. Meaning, you're expected to either move up or move on. That's why the pay levels are structured to fall at the 4-year mark. But at review time, you can be rewarded with additional RSU's that enable you to maintain your comp level as an IC (individual contributor) even if you're not pursuing a promotion (which is what happened for me and why I stayed past the 4 years despite not moving to L7), which can be a difficult hill to climb.
My perspective on the individual contributor route is that it mostly used to make L5s into L6s without management responsibilities. However, it is more based on whoever is the favourites of the teamâs L7 rather than who genuinely performs well. The metrics change to match the L7âs desired outcome not the other way around.
I don't see what customers see in Amazon in the first place. I have never had a bad experience with e-bay. E-bay is cheaper and if I don't get the item or it is not what I ordered, ebay steps in and automatically refunds my money.
Hi, I am getting lots of feedback about aws pip process and firing and all.. Mostly being reviewed by sde s.. I recently got selected as a TAM , so now wondering shall I accept the offer or not.. It's for aws india... Is this culture same for l5 tam roles too? Any guidance.. I don't see people talking about other roles than sde.. Much appreciated.. Thanks
How's your TAM interview and experience so far ?
Doesn't amazon still give raises and promotions? or would it be more financially beneficial to just switch jobs.
You are amazing, A few minutes later the question was answered.
Sad that they hire managers with no basic knowledge of how anything works there so it made me asked why they even there never seen managers that were sooo lazy in my entire life
They took the shares back
All i hear is amazon is really bad for the most part. I don't think i could keep up anyways. I'll find something else i have worked in a warehouse before but it was a total joke i wasn't trained nor do i have a license to use heavy machines(I almost cut my finger off went pretty deep a tape gun went right through my finger. I mean if I'm going to get fired in two weeks i might as well find another job. The hours or days i can deal with but seems like to much pressure I'm not as young as i used to be. I herd a few people in my area talking about the local amazon around and they quit treated like a slave pick rates etc. I'm sure there are good amazon warehouses but 95% of the time i hear are usually bad.
This Amazon company review sounds exactly like the whole nursing culture and profession. No wonder why nurses are leaving hospitals for travel nursing and people leave Amazon đ
Hi, I'm you're newest subscriber :)
Welcome Branden! Thank you!
@@JohnMarty-uncommon you're welcome thank you for your perspective
@@JohnMarty-uncommon i don't know if you have much time to respond to this but I'm actually interviewing for Amazon this coming Friday. I've been watching tons of videos on system design, do you have advice for someone who's been tutoring for the last two years??