Building Better Skill Trees
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 26. 11. 2018
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Skill trees, upgrade systems, ability trees - call them what you want, they have become an integral part of modern day game design. So letâs look at how these things work, where they fall down, and what we can do to build better skill trees.
Games shown in this episode (in order of appearance)
Assassin's Creed: Odyssey (Ubisoft Quebec, 2018)
Shadow of the Tomb Raider (Eidos Montreal, 2018)
Watch Dogs 2 (Ubisoft Montreal, 2016)
Marvelâs Spider-Man (Insomniac Games, 2018)
DOOM (id Software, 2016)
Yakuza 0 (Sega, 2015)
Far Cry 5 (Ubisoft Montreal, 2018)
Batman: Arkham Knight (Rocksteady Studios, 2015)
God of War (Santa Monica Studio, 2018)
Metroid Prime 2: Echoes (Retro Studios, 2004)
Dishonored 2 (Arkane Studios, 2016)
Rise of the Tomb Raider (Crystal Dynamics, 2015)
Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon: Wildlands (Ubisoft Paris, 2017)
Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor (Monolith Productions, 2014)
Assassin's Creed: Origins (Ubisoft Montreal, 2017)
Deus Ex: Human Revolution (Eidos Montreal, 2011)
Prey (Arkane Studios, 2017)
Guacamelee 2 (Drinkbox Studios, 2018)
Mad Max (Avalanche Studios, 2015)
Super Metroid (Nintendo, 1994)
Far Cry 3 (Ubisoft Montreal, 2012)
Horizon Zero Dawn (Guerrilla Games, 2017)
Uncharted 4: A Thief's End (Naughty Dog, 2016)
Mirror's Edge Catalyst (EA DICE, 2016)
Mirror's Edge (EA DICE, 2008)
Ori and the Blind Forest (Moon Studios, 2015)
Path of Exile (Grinding Gear Games, 2013)
Salt and Sanctuary (Ska Studios, 2016)
The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild (Nintendo, 2017)
The Evil Within (Tango Gameworks, 2014)
Devil May Cry 4 (Capcom, 2008)
The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim (Bethesda Game Studios, 2011)
Nioh (Team Ninja, 2017)
The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt (CD Projekt, 2015)
Downwell (Moppin, 2015)
Red Dead Redemption 2 (Rockstar Studios, 2018)
Ryse: Son of Rome (Crytek, 2013)
Final Fantasy X (Square, 2001)
Music used in this episode
Special Spotlight, Kevin Macleod
Runaway, animeistrash
k. Part 2 - 06 untitled 5.5, animeistrash
Runaway, animeistrash
Special Spotlight, Kevin Macleod
Kevin Macleod - incompetech.com
Contribute translated subtitles - amara.org/v/C3BEZ/ - Hry
Should've been called "Growing Better Skill Trees"
Right?
Absolutely!
Brilliant.
what a missed opportunity :o
What if there was a game where skills would sprout as fruits on an actual tree which you had to water every now and again? You could have different trees for different play styles which each have different fertilizers that are more effective!
Watching this made me realize how a lot of UIs look exactly the same
not much innovation right
A lot of studios outsource to the same people. Also, UI principles have consolidated in recent years so it's only going to get worse. Few people will try anything new and creative if it's not optimal according to what they learned.
@AlCeeProd.V2 yeah but then again most still suck anyway
@@gr8b8m85 Most game engines utilize the same blueprints and unless a game studio is using an in house engine then their UIs are going to be the same if not fairly similar.
One thing that's good about this is that the consolidation of UI contributes to game literacy. If the same sorts of patterns show up across wildly different games, it becomes much easier to navigate new games.
I love games that let you sell skills to get the skill points back so that you can experiment with different types of game play without having to commit 100% every time you make a decision
the effectiveness of that mechanic often lives and dies by the combination of skill tree complexity and currency (which is required) to unlock nodes. have 10 party members in a game with a max party of 4, each with their own skill trees and a currency not directly tied with leveling up? sure, you need refunds to be effective. System where the points are given out for every level up and are exclusive to the character that can level up? well, then the value of the currency goes down. Mix with a tree that will let you max a single branch by the end of normal gameplay? spend those points wisely, getting them back would make them worthless. (you shoulndt be able to specialize your characters to deal with every conflict before the conflict happens. if they are a master of diplomacy, they should not become a war god instantly before a required fight.)
Is there any game that had done that?
@@3antrm3nter70 you need to be more specific as to what you are referring to. Refund skill points? well one example is Dragon Quest XI, in which (after reaching a certain point), you can pay to reset skill tree branches and get refunded the skill points. Diplomacy master into War god? that is mostly hyperbole to emphasis the point. the most comparable system i know about is D&D (and their clones), which give the freedom to make characters focused on skills outside combat.
Yea i meant skill points
I will try those games ... Thanks alot
@@3antrm3nter70 Payday 2. Check it out.
What I found interesting, when playing the first Assassin's Creed is that there is no skill tree. But skills are gradually obtained by playing the game, as if there were one, when Al Mualim gives back Altair pieces of his equipment.
Its an attempt at organically tutorializing, and saving some time by omitting more complex design from earlier segments of the game.
Then i just play the side missions with basic gear, to the point where only the main story is left, and couldn't use those skills either way, unless, progressing to the story
OG BRO REAL OG
Fallen order had that while also having a skill tree
The problem with ac1 is that you unlock abilities you sbould already have
Despite the grinding aspect, I loved Skyrim's skill progression as it felt natural: you do action X and you become better at doing action X. So instead of me artificially choosing what kind of a character I'm gonna be, the game improved my character based on the way I was already playing. Brilliant.
The problem with Skyrim, you can become a master painter by drawing a stick man over and over, a simple decrease in XP over repetition would make more real and immersive.
The biggest problem with that is that it doesn't work well for everything.
It's great for warrior builds and stealth builds, as you get better and better every time you perform an action *that you should perform anyway* in a certain way, but as the video says it becomes mere grinding when you're doing something that doesn't actually help the game in any other way, like smiting, enchanting, alchemy and speech, all stuff that is completely optional and that you need to do loads of before it gets actually useful.
Hell, I don't even it fully works on magic, in which the spells are still locked behind invisible level checks on whether you're high enough to even learn it...
It was on the right track sure but it was very easily taken advantage of. There could have been more refined ways to improve a characters skill especially later on such as requiring you to create higher tiered weapons for smithing or learning from a master for restoration for example.
That being said I also like Skyrim's quite a bit because I personally don't take advantage of the quirks. I won't spam daggers if I want smithing up.
I agree. Swinging one handed makes you better at one handed. But crafting 20 dragers is a grind that is not enjoyable.
It could have been crafting 5 different types of weapons, before you can craft a higher class. Forces you to try different kinds, before specialising.
@@MurDocInc Except repetition is how you get good at real life things. No, you need diminishing returns, which Skyrim kind of does, actually.
8:48 "Skills where you can only equip a handful at a time" - Hollow Knight's charm system immediately comes to mind. It isn't a traditional skill tree with experience points and a menu; instead, you find charms around the world and can equip them to a limited number of charm notches. The charms have a huge variety of different gameplay effects. Some just tweak the numbers in your favor, some are useful utility-type things, and others change your movement or give you unique attacks. The coolest part is that different charms work really well together and you can tailor your character to your play style, then swap out the charms and try something different.
Funny, the Navi Customizer from the Megaman Battle Network games is what came to mind for me. Like Breath of the Wild, many of the upgrades can be found out in the game world, but a few can also be purchased. And using upgrades worked much like solving a puzzle. You were even allowed to break the rules of the puzzle, resulting in "glitches" that would create even more effects when in combat.
I kinda wish the new God of War ditched the leveling up for a more robust charm system like Hollow Knight has. It feels like that might have meshed with the gameplay better.
Witcher 3 is another one that makes you pick which upgrades you'll equip, I think (I've only played 10 hours, wasn't my thing, please don't get mad...)
Paper Mario's Badge system was a brilliant early implementation of this, by far one of my favourite parts of the games!
I never thought of the Charms as a skill tree, but... yeah, I guess they're really close. That's very interesting. There are even Charm Interactions.
Transistor's unorthodox skill system was MAD COOOOL. You could combine all abilities with all other abilities.
Could you choose which order to unlock things? I forget
@@shalimarlake7852 no, you unlock things over time I believe, it's not even a real skill tree, it's just customizable abilities
Another great idea in Transistor was that using the skills in active, passive, and augmenting ways unlocked more lore. It was a great way to encourage experimentation and tie up gameplay with story
Losing your life bar in that game was a really cool way of making you try other combinations too. Hell, it served another purpose of prompting weaker players to switch builds in hopes of a stronger one.
@@shalimarlake7852 Also IIRC, you select one of three abilities per level.
One day I'm gonna make a Skill tree, which is literally going to represented as a tree, And mark my words, it's gonna even grow like one.
marked :)
Does that mean the skills available to the player wonât be predetermined, but will adapt to the player? Maybe you buy âstealthâ fertilizer, and the tree grows stealth skills or something.
@@nanowasabi4421 you could look at the gameplay of the player instead, if they're doing a lot of takedowns grow stealth and if they're dying alot grow health upgrades, etc
@@mikeysaurlol I personally like the idea of player choice. A little interface comes up each time you come back to your skill tree with fertilizer, and you can choose which branch for the tree to grow. Maybe it even drops a little fruit for you to eat for the skill upgrade.
I also like the idea of skill trees as part of the landscape and dotted all over the map like the goddess statues in BotW, and they'd all grow simultaneously whenever you upgraded one of the trees. Of course, given that you usually only pick a branch or two in skill trees, it could probably lead to a lot of hilariously lopsided trees hanging over every town. XD
@@cromanticheer you people are aware the is a joke
7:40 in defense of Skyrim's logic, if you crafted a thousand iron daggers in real life, I'd hope you'd get better at smithing!
It's the equivalent of doing a thousand multiplications and suddenly being able to pull off a Laplace transform lol
You'd get better at working with iron, sure. But all that experience wouldn't really transfer to working with DRAGON BONES
Doing something wrong better doesn't make it right.
But it wouldn't be very fun
The system also does not encourage crafting thousands of iron daggers, the xp you get from crafting depends on the value of the item, so it's much more efficient to craft thousands of gold rings
Thing is, having an interesting upgrade system with meaningful skills requires a lot of balance. You have to build the game around them but you also have to think about the player who *doesn't* have them. Arkane are great at this, I mean, you can play Dishonored without Blink. That possibility alone must have been so much work
Not only that, but in Dishonored 2 you can play _without any powers._ Arkane is insane
Thatâs a good point, and Iâm sure itâs part of why most skill trees are so lazy
@@hewhoisme4343 lol you can do that in the first game (as the original comment said). Just don't use Blink.
but having it be an actual choice in the second one is pretty wack though.
@@vizthex I meant the second game is more accommodating for no powers play-throughs, I've played Dishonored 1 both without powers and without powers but still allowing enhancements like agility. I like that the second game gave you a choice to outright refuse the outsiders mark. (Also I meant you can play the game without powers other than blink too, not just blink)
For everyone commenting about PoE... I think he meant more that other games , in general, shouldnât go for quantity over quality. He used it to say âdo not try doing thisâ( in my opinion), not because it canât work(it does in PoE), but because in most games that go for big filler skill trees fail. Basically, I think he just used PoE to illustrate his point about big skill trees, not about bad skill trees.
He evens says âits OFTEN the best solutionâ.
I think he didn't mean it as just taking a dump on poe's skill the. He just said it in the dumbest way possible
He could have mentioned Borderlands1 for this matter.
Cyan_ I took it as âslight stat upgrades make for boring skill treesâ and PoEâs tree is super complex and confusing (to him). I agree that most action adventure style games should avoid minor stat upgrade skill 7nlocks because theyâre boring, however, PoE is designed around highly customised builds where adding allthe little stat ipgrades becomes interesting, so its system works really well. Also, the âinterestingâ ability unlocks are not dine through that system, only character stats are, so you still get the interesting unlocks by finding items. I think that strikes a great balance.
â@Marc T If you don't think the skill tree gives you interesting choices or interaction with skill choice and gear choice, you haven't understood the game. Putting points into the passive skill tree is a fine balance between offensive and defensive traits, boosting defensive layers on top of a main HP pool, which can be specialized in different ways.
Energy shield on top of life? Or instead of life? How about energy shield instead of mana. Or mana is a defensive layer for your health pool. Or life leech is now energy shield leech. How about converting 50% of all damage to fire, but deal only fire damage? Or your minions explode when they reach low life. Maybe you forfeit your own chance to dodge in order to never miss any attacks yourself? MANY choices in path of exile are double edged swords; it will make one part of your character weaker, but will introduce a new way of building your character. These are called Keystone Passives.
When you stack defense and offensive clusters with Keystones, your Ascendancy (class specialization), gear and skill gem choice and setup, you will by the end have a build unique to you. The game will have you thinking about completing a build with many aspects and layers, problems to solve while you are leveling and figuring out exactly what you want from your build. But you need knowledge and skill to build properly. There is a lot of depth, enough to scare away many players. But without this depth, it would be "just another skill tree". Freedom is scary, but then knowledge is power.
@@stefanfyhn4668 That is the one issue I find with PoE. It's not very beginner friendly. I enjoy playing it, but I can see a lot of people being intimidated by the skill tree. I still don't create my own builds but follow and adapt other peoples.
Maybe if they added a "discover a build" function in game for new players, rather than me telling my friend to look up some starter builds and see what looks interesting, it would be a just that tad bit less intimidating.
I think Skill-trees should stay in RPGs. It fits with the theme of a selfmade character. But in a game like Mad Max it wasn't necessary.
I favor the use of building up unique skill tree sets instead of a character being class locked.
I agree. Maybe I'm just nostalgic, but two of my favorite games from my childhood were Jak 2 and Sonic Adventure, and in both those games upgrades, abilities, etc. were gained either through exploration or progressing through the story line. I much prefer it that way, it feels more earned than by grinding. Also learning abilities through skill points like I'm shopping really breaks my immersion, as if my character learned a completely new ability in an instant rather than being introduced to it organically. I also liked the way metroidvanias approached the problem, because unlocking new abilities allows you to access new areas, encouraging exploration.
In game like DmC and God of war it works to incrementally introduce the skill sets to player. The alternatives have downsides:
* Unlocked all move from beginning: player will spend half an hour just to try skill sets and combo, use the best one (opinionated) then get bored mid game due to no new mechanism unlocked
* New skills are unlocked from orbs or stage clear: it prevent less competitive players to gather more strength in case some area is too hard for them or they choose wrong skillsets. Otherwise if the area is beatable with any skill sets no matter how bad it is, it means the area is too easy that skill sets are irrelevant.
* New skills from hidden orbs (additional): it makes missing orbs from unexplored area very hurting to the current gameplay
And as the video has explained, it gives player expectation / hope / hype for the upcoming skill, and usually the teasers are good to keep player engaged.
In Mad Max, it was simply there to buff you as time went on. I find it perfect for what it is, it is not the focus of the game, so it receives less detailing. Not every game needs complicated trees. In Mad Max, the complicated upgrades came from upgrades to your car, new moves, from upgrading Max in the same screen as you customize him and improve his armour, etc. I found it fit the game perfectly.
Also in assasins creed, it wasnt a rpg originally, they just put assasins creed to the title to get more hype.
5:38 "a tightly pruned bush with a handful of truly interesting upgrades is often the best solution" the thing is,the Path of Exile skill tree is meant to be (mostly) for stat upgrades, all the abilities and the "truly interesting upgrades" are from the game's gem system.
"Often" the best solution. As in, "Not every game's Exile, so don't assume that Exile is the best possible example for a non-Exile game that you may make."
@@youtubeuniversity3638 Alright
But Mark Brown implied that Path of Exile was wrong for doing its own thing, which entirely ignores the niche it caters to.
How exactly is it he implied that?
That is not true either.
Keystones allow for all sorts of builds that are impossible otherwise.
Chaos Innoculation, Resolute Technique, Elemental Overload, Vaal Pact, Ancestral Call and many many more.
Even forgetting about what ascendancies allow for and the builds they enable in conjunction with the tree, items and gem system.
Being able to get everything on a skill tree isn't always a bad thing. It depends what kind of game you're making. If it's in a game that's mostly an action game, where unlocking skills is more about gradually adding complexity, as per the example in the video, it wouldn't really make sense to not let you unlock everything. You would simply be missing out on big parts of the game's mechanics. Specialisation doesn't make sense there. While it does in an RPG. In fact, I think that's a pretty big factor in what defines an RPG. There's always lots of talk these days about how "RPG" is meaningless because every genre uses the same mechanics and techniques, but I think forcing you to specialise is one of the big things that skill gives the genre meaning.
If the tree radically affects how you play based on how you fill it in then sure, if the game play is always basically similar and 'playing against your build' isnt penalized then the whole tree is pointless to the game. You could dish out abilities at the end of a level or mission line Viewtiful Joe did, or give players a popup to pick their choice of skill like super mario RPG without all the bother of a skill tree.
*Fallout New Vegas has entered the chat
I mean, the big point of a skill tree should _be_ specialization and replayability. You can take health boosts and specialize in defensive abilities and new ways to engage in melee and tank your way through one playthrough, then play the game again and focus on acrobatic movement and ranged weaponry. You could do those things anyway in a game without a skill tree, but a skill tree serves the dual purpose of having the game tailor itself to the way you want to play it, and tricking the player into playing different ways by making the "optimal" approach different depending on the skills they've chosen. Since many players will choose the optimal solution naturally even to the detriment of their own fun, this can be a good way to rescue players from themselves.
But hear me out, how about being able to maxx another skill tree branch in new game+? And each time you do NG+ you unlock extra branches until you have all from the base game? That way players wonât receive everything initially, but serious fans who love replaying the story are also rewarded
@@FlameUser64 I prefer being able to complete my skill trees rather than having to choose. I most likely wouldn't replay the game anyways, so for me it would be just annoying, as my goal of making a complete character would be impossible. Not saying it can't work when done right, but generaly it sucks when you have to take choices like that rather than being able to enjoy the game.
FFX's sphere grid (yes, I heard you calling me out pre-emptively) was really fun to use. In the beginning, every character is essentially on a fixed skill path, gaining stat boosts and abilities as they gain experience (like any JRPG). Because each character is on a different path, they tend to be quite different in combat, and the combat system is designed to let you take advantage of each character's unique traits, e.g. Wakka is good against flyers (because you need high accuracy), Tidus is good against fast (high agility), Lulu is good against flan types, etc. The comabt lets you switch out party members during combat, so you don't have to worry about making all your characters good in the same way -- it really leans in to the uniqueness of each party member.
Then as the game progresses, you start unlocking paths that interconnect different character's paths. And there are items that let one party member learn a skill that another already has, or teleport between locations on the sphere grid... You get the point, there is a lot of flexibility as you progress in the game. I would say most players don't bother with this until they actually exhaust one of the paths, for example, when Yuna reaches the end of her path. It's then easy to have her take up Lulu's path, so you end up with a second character able to do powerful black magic. (And Yuna's Magic stat is usually higher, so she's a really good black mage.)
Then, towards mid/late game you discover the whole sphere grid is rewritable. You can actually erase stat upgrades on the grid, and overwrite them with new stat ones, using items. If you're one of the crazy people like me who tried to do a max stats run, you can use this to erase a bunch of low stat boost positions and replace them with some high stat boost ones ... like replace a bunch of Agility+1 or Magic+1 spots with Strength+4. It opens up a lot of possibilities for completionist grinders... But it's pretty cool in general, like letting a player design their own skill tree within the game. It's not easy to do this -- the items you need are not so common or easy to obtain -- but it's definitely rewarding experience.
And that's the story of how I got 150+ hours on my main FFX save, back in the day...
Pfft. My brother logged 150+ hours on FFX, and that was just playing Blitzball.
Not for the rewards even, he just really loved Blitzball.
So. Reading that in this condensed form, I realized the sphere board is basically a metaphor for the games story and overall progression design. You start on a fixed path, discover that there might be other ways to go and if you really want to you can go out of your way to learn about everything the world has to offer...crazy stuff
Yeah I don't know why everyone dogs on the SphereGrid or Grinding. Ff10 is one of my favorites and I still play old school Runescape and all the old RPGs involve tons of grinding.
Game makers toolkit always has great with in depth analysis and thoroughly thought out presentations but I feel like most channels like these that go for the "professional oppinion perspective". I believe often side too much with this grandiose idea of what makes a game top tier or triple A level.
I feel like this "is" the problem in the first place and why most games fall on their own sword. The man power now to develop this super realistic constantly trying to innovate games end up missing the point of game.
Which is to have fun.
Go outside and play some tag and with some friends. Don't break a hip and tell what did you learn..?
You don't need the best graphics, skill trees, or specialty crafted dungeons.
All you need is a clear objective, a challenge, an obstacle, and someone to play with.
This is the key to having a lot of fun. I did when I was kid and didnt need a controller and screen to do it. So how can video games convey this idea with it's own medium in it's purest form and that's how you make successful or legendary games.
at least it actually gave you choices, unlike FF13 which is all smoke and mirrors with just one main path you have to go through with a couple of optional side branches (which you'll be filling out anyway because how far you can go on the main path is also tied to story progression)
I loved the sphere grid too. Nice new approach to classic level ups in RPGs where your stats just go up and you'll get new attacks at set levels. With the sphere grid, you even get to choose which stats you'd like to increase next
â...and microtransactionsâ
*BURN!*
Climbing towers got me even more. Very stereotypical.
@@zigurat10 although it is very stereotypical I do get the premise that, exploring the map is easier with a high vantage point.
@@robbieaulia6462 I agree it makes sense. I think it is the overusage of this trope that makes it so undesirable for players. The meta-level of this is that seeing this dev choice being used over and over simply gets annoying even though in singular occasion it absolutely makes sense.
The Path of Exile skill "Forest" is a different kind of interesting. The hard choice isn't "which skills should I get" but "how do I get what I want." The distance you can sprawl out is finite, so going one way limits how far you can go in another. Do you want to get Resolute Techniques? Well, you cant really go get Chaos Inoculation then unless you're ready to make some pretty huge sacrifices. BUT, those sacrifices can be made! You can stay close and bunched up to be as efficient as possible with the finite skill points you get, or you can sprawl out to get many different abilities.
I understand that opening up that skill tree is oppressive the first few times. However, figuring it out is satisfying in a way that other character progression systems simply cannot be.
Very much agreed. Path of Exile makes you seriously plan ahead and sacrifice many opportunities, to make a good character in PoE you really need to know exactly what you want and it extends outside the skill tree too to your equipment and skills. Some people will even suffer through a much harder beginning in order to build their skill tree up for an item or several items later in the game. And others create godlike characters out of items you can find in the first 20 minutes. It's all about intent.
You can go Chaos Inoculation, but then you die all the time bc you dont understand the mechanics well enough yet. Path of Exile's own learning curve is a game in itself as the tree is so complex and extreme nodes like Chaos Inoculation are very close to the starting point you don't know why such a bad node is there until you see a level 90+ character with 8k+ energy sheild and protection from cursed blood to know that only then can you safely select Chaos Inoculation for it to be a good node of protection.
@@Sarahmint Understanding what a skill does or how it should be used ins't really what I was talking about. I used two key-stones that were relatively far away simply as an example. The raw distance from each other simply means that if you wanted both, a non-trivial amount of your finite skill points would be devoted simply to traveling there.
i did bring up the oppressiveness of the learning-curve though. However Chaos Inoculation is the perfect example of an extremely interesting ability. It offers a game changing upside with an equally game changing downside. "Your Maximum Life becomes 1" is a great line of text. I would argue that even a new player understands the gravity of those words...and furthermore it sparks the question in a new player "How exactly am I supposed to survive with 1 hp?" Those kind of questions help new players think outside of the box. A new player asking that question may give the Energy Shield mechanic a second though simply because that skill exists on the tree....even if they never select it.
My biggest issue with the poe skill tree is that... pick one skill, and suddenly about 80-90% of the tree no longer matters to you. Of course there are always edge cases, but it's pretty much mandatory for any endgame content that you either get HP + 1-2 stats of your choice that support your main damage type (str + fire damage for example) or nothing but int, ES and elemental damage if you're going CI. Yes you can interchange hp and ES... kinda. But pretty much, because of the nature of min maxing, a very... very large portion of the skill tree is functionally pointless unless you're running some backasswards skill that won't work in endgame or trying some really backwards, dumb combo that probably wont' work.
And this is coming from the guy who likes those builds... A very large portion of the tree is honestly almost completely useless just because there are better major nodes or the nodes are completely useless otherwise
@@psinjo but everything more or less works if you know how to build for it.
Stats arent all that necessary besides enabling your gems or for specific stat based builds (BLS/Howa). There are plenty of ways to scale your survivability outside of life or ES nodes. My Heiro has 10k ES and 12k mana on a lowlife build. Ive used probably 90% of the tree in builds that are endgame viable. There are some bad nodes, but some people have used them for their specific purpose and, the fact is, bad nodes are entirely relative.
And when the tree is so massive you wont be able to use 80% of it anyways with the points you get. Every build has priorities and the way the tree is set up is to make you invest in your priorities.
Im not sure if youve made it to endgame enough to judge what works or what doesnt. Ive made countless home made builds that can do all the content or race through high level content efficiently. You just have to learn the game to be able to do so.
First time I did shaper I had 4500 hp and no instant leech. Then I did it with all MF gear. Because much of the high level fights are skill based along with their DPS checks.
Final Fantasy X's Sphere grid is the same as Path of Exile's and Salt & Sanctuary's trees.... they are all about combining different upgrades to create a unique "build". That's why they are, and MUST be, so huge. That's the biggest thing this video is missing: recognizing that each game and genre has different needs and goals, so there is no such thing as a "short trees are better" rule.
BUT in FFX every character shares the same tree, but they start out in different parts of the giant grid. And there are "locks" on the grid for optional side paths/splitting off into another character's area early, which can be opened with consumable "keys" you find in the world. However, there are more locks than keys that you'll find in a normal playthrough. So you have to choose which characters to use them for.
@@TheWeis In Path of exile every class also starts in a different part of the same giant tree
@@loreer123 yes they copied ffx I know
@@TheWeis then why use "but" as if you're creating creating a counter-argument
@@HolyDeviant Don't forget that Path of Exile has the Ascendancy system where you can unlock one of three subclasses for each class. Each subclass has its own unique passive skill tree, which is generally more powerful and build-defining than the normal skilltree.
Honestly the character building in this game is probably the best I've ever seen. No two characters are alike.
I felt like Doom's Weapon Upgrade and Rune systems prompted a moment of "why can't I do that already" frustration to see what abilities were locked, but in retrospect they were also designed in a way that modulated my playstyle and encouraged trying different weapons and tactics. The Praetor Suit upgrades did that to a lesser degree, but in a way that DID make me feel more powerful or capable as the game progressed.
I did like the praetor upgrades, they kinda just sprinkled in minor improvements or augmentations into the game.
one of the problems with the "putting the skill points in the physical world for players to find" is that psychopaths like me will spend way too much time doing side challenges that we arent actually ready for until we get the skill points, then be overleveled to fight the 3rd boss because we have meticulously found every available skill point. it's a delicate balance between "well we gave the player too many skill points because we wanted the boss fight to be possible to someone who didnt scan every nook and cranny" and "we didnt put enough skillpoints on the main path so now a casual player has no hope of beating this boss fight"
Hahaha, I'm one of those completionist psychopaths too. Got caught up in exploration of BotW and was probably massively overgeared for most content.
I do think Metroidvanias remedy the major issue of being able to "overlevel" and screw up the difficulty curve. For instance, when playing the Metroid Prime games, I only really started seeking out every last health container and ammo expansion when I was about to face the final boss or when an earlier boss kept kicking my ass. The gating of the world with various "upgrade walls" kept me from grabbing EVERYTHING early on.
So, that's a method, and Metroidvanias are near and dear to my heart, but it does kinda feel like a step backwards when we do have wide open sandbox games that feature very little gating and/or gating that can be bypassed by multiple means. So, I dunno.
@@cromanticheer he sort of covers the issue in his boss keys on hollow knight. When a metroidvania requires an item to progress, but there are multiple places to use said items to progress, it generally works better. Players cant get stumped by failing to find a single critical lock (upgrade wall), but they still need the item to pass the lock before they can get the upgrades in the new area. It maintains the difficulty curve while allowing players to choose the path they want to follow.
Did that in Cyberpunk, by the time i had finished with the sidequests i was 20 levels above the main story, rendering it braindead easy. stopped playing till they pull in the difficulty scalar from Witcher3
it works amazingly well in prey, its an immersive sim and it doesnt have stuff like boss fights
@@asmosisyup2557 witcher 3 enemy upscaling is very useful. Without it, i can one hit any main story bosees due to overgear and overlevel. I think RPG games should have the same mechanics
Adding a call for a new series: Skill Trees (a companion to Boss Keys) - Character design for progression and development
This topic is way to complex for one episode, and deserves a full on conversation.
Yes please.
My favorite skill tree is in Mario + Rabbids, where you can reset your skills at every match. In the late game, you're choosing skills from your tree that suit the geography, positions, and goals of the next encounter. I've never had to be so thoughtful about my characters' abilities, and it really added a complex layer of strategy, as I was thinking many turns ahead before the match even started.
Agreed! I remember so many times where I reset to get more mobility or healing or damage or utility. There was a lot of flexibility in that idea and I'd love to see more skill trees that allow resetting at some point to allow more experimentation as opposed to a rigid "this is your choice you're stuck with it" style. It wouldn't fit every game but I'd kill to see more in a similar style.
gahh already wanted to buy Mario+Rabbids as an XCOM fan, but now y'all just added another reason why I should buy the game (after buying a switch first).
@@stratoge I think M+R makes a lot of 'right' design decisions. Mark talks in a different video about how M+R wisely chooses to reward players that complete missions under certain conditions/within turn limits, rather than scoring or penalizing for suboptimal play. The different characters allow for some really cool playing styles too, like the heavy hitting Rabbid Mario who can obliterate large numbers of enemies standing in a close group, or Luigi, who can clear huge distances to gain strategic field advantage and pick off troublesome opponents from across the map. Their abilities and weapons really inform their playing style, and naturally incline you to use them the way that's intended.
Really, combining the great game design of Mario developers and Rayman developers, it shouldn't be surprising that game was as solid as it was.
@@GreatKazooka thank you for the delightful reply!
I enjoyed the strategic aspects of M+R's skill tree, but I was annoyed at the amount of time I had to spend on respecs. In particular, I wish you could save a certain build and then go back to it later instead of having to do every ability one at a time.
Path of Exile's tree gains a lot the more you play the game; It's just another huge customization for your character and increases the ways you can build your character. It's pretty great.
I know this is 2y old but whatever... I agree completely. It's miles better than a skill tree like in GoW. It's just customization with pre-planning. In GoW you have meaningless choices.
PoE makes the "add X% damage" actually work as well, given there are so many nodes, and it's great.
I don't agree with this. In every instance I've seen with builds there is always "this is the path you take to get this banging skill because even though it's not good stats it's shorter so you can go further toward another cool skill somewhere in the tree". Basically all of the nodes that aren't Notable or Key Passive are weak and underwhelming compared to gear rolls. The incentive isn't to take nodes that might help your build but just to get to the shiny gold bordered nodes because they actually matter.
Off the top of my head, one of the more interesting skill trees I've encountered was from Darkwood. It was a very simple, singular tree that worked in tiers. The player would be able to get two of three abilities in each tier, but access to a new tier would also force the player to select a negative ability. This makes it so not obtaining new skills is actually a decent option as you'd gain none of the weaknesses, but lack the more helpful abilities like an unlimited sprint for a short amount of time. Also how you'd obtain "experience" was through searching the environment for these mushrooms that would make loud, audible squishing noises, playing into the game's audio centric presentation.
My favorite "skill tree" is from Nier Automata, where you have a limited number of slots for you to unlock upgrades an need to manage skills, favoring some over others. You can even sacrifice UI stuff over bonuses. Although its not presented as a tree and more as a box you fill so I'm not sure it would count as "skill tree".
Great vid!
Well, no it's not a skill tree. That's why it's not shit.
A similar system is present in the original Paper Mario.
Not a tree, bruh.
Fabio Provencher It was still lit tho!
I totally agree. While it's not exactly a tree in form but it's pretty much same in function. Getting a random drop of high level chip or saving up to buy one feel like "sequence breaking" the tree. Feels great.
I actually loved Path of Exile skilled tree, because it solved a problem in most RPG: choosing how your character evolves without failing your build. In PoE, in order to unlock real abilities, you have to unlock stats (magic, strength, ...) that will fit the ability, so your character is always balanced. It's all about choosing which path in the skill tree will be the shortest, or will pass through abilities you're interested in. Plus you can eventually explore the skills to all the other classes, while gaining the stats that will fit them.
I also loved the simple skill tree of XCOMs, you choose only between two abilities, but those abilities will impact so much your possibilities and your previous abilities that those choices matter more than most skill trees.
Inquisition has a similar logic. The biggest benefit I see isn't necessariy about guiding the players towards good stats, but in removing obvious choices that usually plague the RPGs of the genre that's more tactical and less about the action. In FFXIV, for instance, you choose where you put the points as you level up, but the choices are extremely obvious and streamlined. Better not have the choice at all, if it's gonna be like that.
Jesus, people really like path of exile, don't they?
@Ragnarok probably just diablo 3. Diablo 2 is amazing
One of the best games I ever played, for a good six months I was obsessed with that skill grid.
@Sapphire Spire no, PoE is indeed good
Anything that is said by this channel isn't an absolute fact and sometimes (like in this case) it means he just didn't understand it due to not giving it enough time. Like someone's first opinion about Dark souls or eating olive or caviar! Path of exile skill tree is uniquely brilliant and works perfectly for the other aspects of PoE. But definitely it isn't the best approach for every game.
I never understood how anyone could enjoy a game which lacks automatic stat comparison between your equipped item and a inventory item you're currently looking at...
I really love borderlands 2 skill trees, you can't pick all of them/ pick them willynilly and they're actually useful
On their own they are boring af, most of them just give you slightly more shields, slightly more damage etc. The only good thing about them is that by combining stuff from different skill trees and items you can turn your character into unstoppable force of destruction. BL3 did way better, but still lots of boring stuff there. All the skill trees I've seen in PC action games that didn't trace their lineage from PnP RPGs were boring as fuck. I really like the RPG approach better - by leveling up you get both the boring stuff (HP, damage, armor, mana, whatever) and non-boring stuff (new skills, spells, etc)
@@ebonfortress Insert something here about playing as Gaige/Mechromancer, speccing down into Best Friends Forever far enough to get Close Enough, and then combining that with the Anarchy branch for mad high damage
Yeah bl2's was great. I love the themes they have and the synergy between themselves and other skills. Even basic things like bigger shields feels rewarding when you know that you get special effects with bigger shields.
I already mentioned this on the Discord, but a recent top-down shooter game, Bytepath, has a frankly fasinating skill tree. On the one hand, it's a monstrous path of exile-style forest of a tree, and many of the 'small' nodes are minor stat ups, but there are also plenty of big nodes with sometimes far more complex effects attached to them (including ones with drawbacks for taking them!).
In addition, you only ever can have up to 80 Nodes in the tree at once, when the tree has a *lot* more than 80 nodes availible, meaning that utilising the skill tree requires you to basically map and remap your upgrade path for whatever build you want to acheive your goals, and that even the minor upgrades you pick are a little more important because you only have access to so many nodes.
Obviously none of this matters if you don't like the gameplay it has, but the skill tree I find fasinating just as a thing that exists.
The path of exile tree also has variance in the value of nodes and more possible nodes than you can take.
Thanks for introducing me to this, literally installing this as I type in this comment.
This is the main reason I posted it here as well as something similar in the discord. Glad I was right to do so hopefully! :3
This is an example of complexity taking AWAY from a games depth.
80 nodes at once? No player is comprehending that. This removes any deliberate decision making for skills. There is a reason every piece in chess isn't unique. There is a reason each chess piece only does one thing. Depth comes from choices, BUT ALSO understanding EXACTLY what those choices mean, for the moment, and the future.
The entire game is about theory crafting various builds to break the game in your favour. Like I said, a lot of those 80 nodes will be minor stat ups that you take to map your path to the more significant nodes you actually want, so it's rather more comprehendible than you are making it sound.
I mean the skill tree in transistor is both "in-game", offers interesting choices and is just all around a great experience :D
Yes, Transistor's progression system is brilliant.
Pyre also has neat skill trees. They're more conventional, but extremely limited. Each character has eight perks, but you can only pick four of them, and most of them are really good, leading to some tough decisions.
Iâd forgot how much I love transistors skill tree. I should replay that soon.
@@Gorfinhofin I actually like Pyre's better. The unlocked skills change the game even more than Transistor's did already. Also, you're forced to change strategies and used skills constantly, unlike Transistor.
I feel like Supergiant has this down pretty well, honestly. Even Bastion, with weapon-specific "skill trees" that are a series of independent binary choices, and also the liquor cabinet, means you have *access* to all these cool skills by the end of the the game, but you still have to limit yourself to a particular set of them for any given excursion, so it's both interesting choices and optional respec on the reg, not totally unlike Transistor, if rather less impactful and involved.
@@isaacm.9476 Bastion is made by supergiant too? Yeah, I too like the game. All the different weapons have distinct strengths and weaknesses, and upgrades to the different weapons are scattered, so one weapon might be stronger and more fit for one situation than all the other weapons.
poe's skilltree is one of the best parts of the game. you can spend hours figuring out the best way to go about your build, the the level of tinkering i love in my games!
I really liked how Rise Of The Tomb Raider had certain skills that you learned by finding tomes or glyphs in tombs or other locations off of the beaten path.
I only have to disagree on the last point, I LOVE navigating the menus and skill trees, please don't make them quick and automatic, but this is probably because I heavily play ARPGs, JRPGs and the like, half the fun is choosing which skill I want and see that lovely UI filling up
I think what he was going for was not "make all of them automatic", but rather "make a system that fits the game". For some games, menu navigation can really take you out of the experience, and for some it's not a big deal. Red Dead is (probably, I've not actually played it) a game where you want to avoid menu navigation, as it takes you out of the game, while in a game like Diablo 2, building your character is an integral part of the game, and choosing the right skills offers a lot of interesting choices. And it's a game with a lot of menu navigation by its very design (one could argue that comparing items is part of the menu navigation, and finding better loot is a core part of what makes Diablo into what it is)
his views on perks and skills seems to be very focused on linear games with a clear end.
It is kind of peaceful when doing it in the Souls games because it acts as a break from the otherwise oppressive and hostile environment.
@@vinx.9099
Considering that one of his main points is that every major game has a skill tree rather than it being restricted to games and genres where that kind of progression is a core element, and that he's talking about how games do things wrong more than he is about games that get things right, it makes sense that he's more focused on the types of game where an RPG-style skill tree is a poor fit...
@@AFnord I agree that certain games are not exactly made for a skill tree, but if there is one I'd say the "form" is just as important as the "function". Seeing the progress of the tree as more skills build up is part of the satisfaction on having a tree. So even if the game doesn't exactly need it but it has a skill tree, having an intricate design is way more appealing than just leaving it boring, simple and quick.
Borderlands 2 still has my favorite tree system. Every "node" is consequential to how your character functions at every level and you can't fill out the whole screen, so you have to strategize and choose how you're going to make your build. There was lots of planning and thinking of how your points would interact with each other.
i agree !
Agreed, Borderlands 2 still stands as a great system especially when compared to itsâ predecessor Borderlands 1 and itsâ successor The Pre-Sequel. Borderlands 1 was super boring with minor, incremental stat increases with only the capstone skills really changing much. The Pre-Sequel had the opposite problem: more interesting skills in the long run for each of the character classes, but allowing you start earning skill points at Level 3 compared to BL1 and 2âs Level 5 made it so progression began earlier and lasted even longer than ever before with the extremely high level cap allowing you to nearly max out all three skill trees, making it so character-building waned the more and more you leveled up. Borderlands 2 gave you a lot of points to work with, but never enough to completely throw builds out the window and it actually had sweeping gameplay changes in the form of some skills like changing Mayaâs Phaselock to an Enraged Enemy mode or like turning Axtonâs turret into more of a deployable nuke rather than relying on it to target enemies with bullets. The game really did it well and it makes you wonder if they can make it even better in Borderlands 3. It would be a hard feat to accomplish, but damn it would make a great system, even greater!
Agree, its sad that the skill tree system was the only thing that i liked about borderlands 2
Borderlands 2 was fantastic! The characters, the story with Jack, the Weapon manufacturers being distinct and unique... On and on, it was the best of the three! I really liked the skill trees in that one as it completely changed the class of the character by being dominant in one of the particular trees. My friend and I can play as the same character and be completely different from each other, merely because we started in different trees!đ
@@Weighty68 As a melee Zer0 player I couldn't agree more! The 'Many Must Fall' skill ended up changing the game completely. Who needs guns when you can just 1-shot melee everyone?? Felt so OP, but also required some pre-planning and skill to keep the chain going - made for one of my favourite gaming experiences ever.
"If you ask me, a tightly pruned bush [...] is often the best"
teehee
"With a handful of interesting *upgrades*" if you know what I mean.
I dunno if it's just me, but I loooove spending way too much time plotting my way through FFXII's license board. There's something really satisfying about saying "I'm just gonna buy all the health upgrades" and just using them as a sponge for punches.
yeah, and being able to chain specific enemies for higher LP values encourages, not just grinding, but SELECTIVE grinding, it encourages the player to actively look at what enemies are around, not to just kill it because they see it, as that resets your combo,
12 on PS2 is my favorite Final Fantasy, I absolutely adore the Gambit system
The worst skill is the one that makes you get more experience. It's not really a choice, just an early game tax.
I agree with you on this. I always feel kinda compelled to get it early because otherwise I'm wasting possible level-ups, but usually early game there are other upgrades you want too. Maybe that's a good thing (making you choose between the two options) but to me the 'extra exp' option doesn't feel FUN at all. The worst game I've played for this is Grand Kingdom, where every single time you level a character you can put points into 'faster exp gain' which ended up making me fret more than I'd like to admit. Just leave everyone at the same level of exp gain and it will be fine, like you said, there's no need for an early game tax.
Yeah, "gain X faster over the course of the entire game" abilities are rarely a good idea, at least in skill trees. I think they can be done well in other systems, for example in Streets of Rogue you get to choose one of a few options at each level up and sometimes may be offered "Studious" which makes you gain experience faster and thus level up more often before the end of the game but taking it means passing up on the other options and given the massive amount of traits in the game now you may never see the others again. So if Studious is offered alongside something particularly powerful or just a bit too late in the run to matter you'll often want to skip it, since even if it means missing out on 2-5 levels you don't know if those levels are actually going to offer meaningful upgrades.
But again that isn't a skill tree, just an example of how that skill type itself could be reasonably implemented in another type of system. Although if you wanted to design a skill tree that included something like that you could probably learn from it by making it similarly costly or risky in the context of the tree and system you're designing. For example maybe skills are colored you're only allowed to take a certain number of each color, so taking the XP gain option means permanently giving up at least one of the other skills that shares a color with it.
In game design it should rarely be "X is bad" but rather "how do we make X fun and interesting"? Sometimes you can't and often this mechanic is lazily implemented and thus bad, but I think there is still hope for making this a worthwhile inclusion in some games.
dozens of daggers? try hundreds, thousands.
favourite skill tree: POE :P
second favourite: dishonored
My favorite I think is the skill tree from Kotor II, aka: Dungeons and Dragons 3rd edition: Star Wars edition lol.
It's the 'same' in Kotor I, except the balance wasn't as good there. In Kotor 1, your ranged dex character just becomes soft-locked at c-tier halfway through the story when you get lightsabers unlocked ('wasted' feats as sith/jedi enemies deflect your projectiles and you can't apply dex for damage on melee weapon, only str is damage there). When a strength character was about as good up till now but is just S+ tier after half-way. Punishes player for not having meta-game knowledge. Not to mention Wisdom stat was useless for the first half in Kotor I. Kotor II fixes everything though. From skillpoints to allies( and when/who/what abilities are available for you at each moment), from feats to force powers, from mathing to roleplay, everything is god-tier.
PoE is my favorite too, specifically because the forest isn't even the skill tree.
@@Scio_ FFX. or FF12. No Doubt
@@sonnyankau9239 It takes a particularly special kind of idiot to not only not get the subtext but also not realize PoE doesn't have a skill that at all. It has a skill crafting system that had nothing to do with the tree they feel intimidated by.
I like path of exile skill tree, it gives access to a lot of choices and is fitting for a hack and slash game
"Gives the UI team something to do" brutal, My mate felt attacked haha, he does it for a living :D
The MegaMan Battle Network series has a system where upgrades are given to you in the shape of coloured tetris-like blocks, and you only have a limited amount of "upgrade space" in which you can fit them. There are also some extra rules like how upgrades of the same colour aren't allowed to be next to eachother. So the idea is to be as efficient as possible when putting the blocks in the limited space. Google "megaman battle network navi customizer" to see what I mean.
It's been a while since I played those games though, so you might want to read up on it yourself.
Battle Network for all of it's flaws as a series is awesome and I'm glad to see someone brought up the Navi Cust. It's a really fabulous character customization system!
Battle Network was my favourite Mega Man series. Sometime near Mega Man 11 announcemnt capcom said something like "we're aware fans want something new for MMBN and Mega Man Legends" so maybe we'll get another entry to the series (probably spinoff with different characters as MMBN6 had epilogue mentioning Lan's future).
@@ScolPL Given how tone-deaf Capcom is, they'll probably make another Star Force game instead of another MMBN game.
i just finished playing transistor and their invisible skill tree system works like downwellâs, where after reaching a new level you are given a few different options to choose from for a new function, limiter, and a space to unlock. i thought it worked really well with the other systems in the game, like losing a function and having to find a couple new access points to restore it when you lose all of your health, to take the time until reaching the next level to play with the new features youâve earned. plus using the features in different ways opened up new information about the person the function came from which helped to open up the world and story. and considering the story is an important aspect of the game i thought it all tied really nicely together!
PoE is not a good example (it's a passive tree, skills/ability are in gems)
Woah woah woah. Searching out 120 shrines that only give you more health or more stamina is NOT a skill tree. Taking an extra hit before I die is not a new skill.
He's more talking about the content involved in skill trees and how sometimes it can be about the work that goes into getting that upgrade (synonymous with skill in this context), that makes it actually worth getting, in some games you just straight up pick an upgrade/skill slot that says "Take One Additional Hit Before You Die" and boom there you go, that is part of what is being referred to as a skill tree, and it's a mild stretch but it's still not too inaccurate to say that exploring the world for specific things is akin to earning points on a skill tree towards a specific goal.
Mmm, I'm about to make my own comment on that. The single biggest area that Breath of the Wild dropped the ball on gameplay-wise is level progression, with the narrowness of uses for Spirit Orbs being just one example.
It's stuff like this that makes it all the more crucial for Nintendo to get over their gimmick sequel obsession and just release a more polished and extended version of the previous game for a change.
@@lpsp442 Oh boy. Nintendo is not obsessed with 'gimmick sequels'. That is my short answer.
The long answer is this;
Nintendo does not want to just refine their formula and do the same thing 50 times in a row. It makes them to niche and focused on one aspect of their audience. The goal of Nintendo is to apply to all ages, and all groups. If you dissect Breath of the Wild, you find components from action, adventure, RPG, and puzzle games. Every time Nintendo releases a sequel, they are testing out a new way to play the game. They cannot stand releasing the same thing with a different paint job. They have to be new, fresh ideas. For example,
F Zero stopped with sequels because it reached its full potential with F Zero GX. When questioned, Nintendo asked what else the people wanted from the game. Nintendo HATES repeating themselves, so they continuously try new concepts. They aren't milking the cash cow for all its worth, they milk it for fresh milk.
Spiritual marketing in action, ladies and gentlemen.
@@lpsp442 Explain?
In games like Dishonored and Deus Ex: Human Revolution, I find myself drowning in the currency/points you need to unlock skills because I prefer to play sneaky and non-lethal. The worst part about the latter game is that the game gives you more points for not killing stuff, but the things you can unlock are primarily used to kill stuff...
A skill-tree I did like the concept of (although I did not play around with it long enough to get a proper understanding of it long-term) is the skill tree in The Elder Scrolls Online. I loved using an ability until you could morph it. The fact that you could only slot 5 abilities at a time made you think of cool combinations you could do and levelling up your abilities was probably the most enjoyable thing of that game. Sadly, it lacked in many other areas... but the skill tree was really cool. It was an MMO however and in MMOs cookie cutter specs rule, and that often kills the fun of skill trees. In a single player game I care more about fun and cool factors than I do about playing optimally, but if I'm competing against other players I want to be the best I can be.
In Elder Scrolls Online, you unlock a second weapon slot and ability bar at level 15, after which you can swap between them mid-combat, essentially giving you 10 ability slots (plus two Ultimates). Swapping between the bars and weaving attacks and abilities together is a big part of the combat system. :)
dishonored 2 did really well with giving you powers both for murder and non lethal. dishonored 1 did have that problem where once you had agility and darkvision (or whatever it was called) you where basically done with getting upgrades.
the elderscolls thing is kind of cool how powers could change, but the options where generally too limited to feel all that unique.
Kathkere I'm playing Human Revolution right now, the skills you unlock aren't primarily used for a lethal playstyle. They aren't even used for non-lethal playing.
Pretty much every upgrade either improves stealth, navigation or hacking. The only one that seems geared toward killing bitches is the Typhoon aug. The other actives just make you either more quiet, invisible or give you x-ray vision. So no skill really pushes you toward lethal or non-lethal, just to stealth.
You're right about Dishonored, though. Half of the powers are useless for non-lethal play. I still love the gameplay, but low chaos runs are kind of dull compared to high chaos.
@@Grim_Pinata Hm. Might be misremembering it, then. Haven't played the game since ~2012. I just remember not wanting to spend my points because it didn't fit my playstyle.
@@Grim_Pinata There were definitely more that were far more geared toward lethal playthroughs. Turret and Robot domination were far more useful for those willing to kill their targets than those who weren't, since it let you turn them against the enemy. There were also augments for reducing recoil and stabilizing aim while moving, health regeneration, damage reduction, and one that made you immune to flash grenades, all of which are useless to the stealthy, non-lethal player (outside of the infamous anti-stealth boss battles, which still required at least turret domination to do).
nice video, but hereâs food for thought that I just came up with (maybe). Imagine a game that has a literal skill tree that grows as you get skills and you could summon it for platforming and the more skills you have the taller the tree and it could be more changeable like you could upgrade a specific âbranchâ and it would grow out giving you extra length and distance to walk on. Just food for thought though
okay, I had an idea where the dificulty was the size of the skill tree, and not the power/ai of the eemies. you my friend, have come up with the perfect idea to use it with. on higher dificulty, the skills are more passive with ability 'nodes' farther apart and an initial debuff to your character, it could also decrease the effect each node has on the literal skill tree. easier dificulties initially buff your character and have far fewer passive nodes, and the affect on the literal skill tree is far more noticable.
I really want this to be made into a game.
I came here to watch some interesting references and advices to improve UI & UX of our game. I got what I was looking for about skills trees, thank you bro. Excelent video!
I don't think it's fair to dismiss Path of Exile's passives forest on the basis of "is big". It's as big as it is because all the character archetypes share it, and because each character can be built in very different ways depending on the skill gems you choose (active skills aren't on it, they're a whole other system) characters will often need access to the areas branching off of each other (plus the Scion is intended to be able to go in any direction from the middle).
It also gives you reasonable tools for finding the sort of things in it you want. There's a built in search function that highlights nodes based on keywords so you don't have to trawl through the whole thing looking for the bits you need.
This, of course, is in the context of a game where you're kind of expected to get your first few goes at a character wrong and try again next league (Leagues are like the season resets in Diablo but with more new mechanics per league).
Bloody thank you!
GloatingSwine I found much of the video to be subjective and meaningless. Skill trees that encourage grinding, for example, arenât necessarily bad at all. I really enjoyed Skyrimâs skill tree system. Itâs just something to keep an eye on.
Likewise, skill trees with âboringâ options like extra health arenât boring at all... especially extra health. They fundamentally change how the game works. How many hits you can take, how many enemies you can face, etc. They arenât as flashy as ability unlocks, but they are often worth more.
My problem with skill trees is that they often present unequal options that become a number crunch rather than a choice of playstyle. When one or a few unlocks are the only viable choices you get to make, the rest of the false complexity is a game of the player making bad choices thinking they were given a fair choice when they werenât. To find the right upgrades you have to analyze the mechanics and calculate which bonus has a greater benefit to you.
Don't forget the fact that the skill tree, while it could potentially have some more interesting notables along the way, sort of like a weaker ascendancy, it still fits into the kind of game Path of Exile is. The game is all about min-maxing and finding that right build path; choosing to stretch long distances in the tree to be able to grab a specific build enhancing upgrade or to just grab more of the closer ones.
The big flaw I find with PoE's skill tree is that the game itself almost always forces you to pick very specific nodes if you want to be able to do any of the harder content. (such as the huge health cluster)
â@@gkuoni Yeah, there are quite a few "always food" nodes which sort of feels bad, but learning the balance between offensive and defensive nodes and not just searching for the right damage type and picking it forever is one of the ways you develop as you learn the game. The fat life block in the middle is an artifact of the way the scion's part of the tree is built, you couldn't easily split it up and parcel it around among other nodes without disadvantaging warrior path Scion for +life early on.
Yup, Mark was wrong to dismiss it so quickly. That tree is intimidating by design. It"s meant to appeal to a niche and it does it very well. How could anyone call this bad design? Not every game is trying to be accessible.
I actually totally disagree with having skill tree unlocked by side mission instead of "playing the game normally". I hate when a game forces me to do side stuff and reward me with power. That means either if I do the side stuff I'll be overpowered for the main path. Or if I miss the side stuff I'll struggle through the main path. It also usually forces some kind of gameplay which means you are not free to experiment and figure out for yourself what you like doing the most. Like in deus ex : human revolution (didn't play the last one) where you get more experience from non-lethal stealth where the game basically tells you "you can play however you want. But fuck you if you do something I don't like even if it's efficient".
Of course sometimes it make sense like undertale actively making you weaker if you don't kill your ennemies, but the whole game revolve around that and the power difference between low and high level isn't that high but I digress.
gaining new ability only by advancing through the story actually gives you freedom to tackle the situations in any way you wish making your choice in the skill tree actually relevant. It also lets the game have a better balance.
So yeah... I really disagree with games not giving you progress through normal play.
How about alternatively, some skill points can be earned through the main story while the extra points can be earned in side missions?
@@Angel_Kittichik
*Batman: Arkham Origins* has a system like that: most skills/perks can be unlocked with levelling up while other required completing a certain number of in-game challenges.
He meant less side missions as only way and more "use skill points as incentive for players to try literally anything other than what they normally default to." I.E., variety encouragement. And, obviously, this is meant as general advice. Some games benefit from keeping a player down a narrow path with no side stuff to even see. Whatever works for what you're making, it's just something to consider if there's ever some things you find players need more incentivized to try.
@@youtubeuniversity3638 If your side missions aren't worth playing by themselves and require you to make the game unplayable or less fun if you don't do them for players to check them out... then maybe they shouldn't be in the game to begin with?
And if your varied playstyles aren't different,useful or interesting enough to be experimented by the player without rewards, then maybe that's a problem.
That's why I disliked about BOTW, even more than low weapon durability. By the end you are so overpowered that the only fun I have was when I reached the Island that strip me of all my gear and I thought "yeah the game was more fun when I wasn't a poor man's Thor with all the champions powers and the Master Sword."
I am glad that I see so many people reacting to the negative implication on PoE skill tree. It is part of what got me interested in the game in the first place. Were it worse designed or implemented then I would agree, but it is quite a good tree and as people already mentioned it fits the game well.
Can you make a video about traversal of terrain and good alternatives to Fast Travel? I personally think that Fast Travel is something that game designers use to avoid making a means of transportation that is interesting and fun, in the new Spiderman game I was amazed that they included a Fast Travel system when it is fun to get around, but that is one of very few games that is fun to travel considerable distances.
Breath of the Wild is a lot of fun. :D
I could be wrong but in prey the turrets only attack if you stock up on typhon abilities it doesn't occur while using human ones. At least that was my experience with the game.
Still enjoyed the video by the way just noticed that small error.
@@afroarchitect2446 it's still upgrades, he didn't mention what exactly
but, yes, it's right. like two different brunches with some flavs and disadvantages for each
@@quantumedbox4341 Yeah I agree but for people who never played it. It can be misleading because he didn't preface it with " this happens while getting to many typhon abilities"
@@afroarchitect2446 I haven't played it, I don't know what a typhon is or what typhon abilities are, or if that's a skill tree or if there's multiple skill trees and if that's just one option, or if it's a separate thing altogether, or whatever. What I got out of the video is "there are skills you can unlock in Prey that makes turrets attack you." Which, based on your description, is 100% accurate and exactly as specific as it needed to be to get the point across.
@@Roxfox that's fair, but it isn't that simple. Even in your reply it shows that you are missing on something because he skipped over it quickly. You said that there are some abilities that make turrets attack you this isn't true it's collecting enough of them that sets it off. You have to unlock several of a certain type of abilities in order for this to happen. It's not as simple as because you unlocked ability y turrets now attack its a lot more than that. My whole goal was not to attack you, Mark or anyone with what I said it was just that he said something that is misleading to those who haven't played the game and can be viewed as wrong by those who have. Thanks for the replies I hope I made my case, and I really don't mean to attack or offend anyone. I just want for videos to not accidentally mislead anyone.
The charm system in hollow knight is kinda a skill three, and it's pretty good!
Emil Ekroth I was thinking the exact same, and was almost disappointed when I saw that nobody was talking about it.
It's not a skill tree in the way that It doesn't have branches, junctions and requirements, and the upgrades are not permanent. Not saying that a skill tree needs to fulfill all these characteristics, but rather than a mechanic that doesn't include any of them is most likely not to be considered a skill tree. Especially considering the structure of the charm system, which has nothing to do with a tree's. It's closer to a gear/equipment system.
Yeah, it works like a charm. Pretty sure he will bring it up in his World design of Hollow Knight video. Fingers crossed
Just wanted to write the same comment.
Itâs based on Paper Marioâs badge system. Thereâs an even better version in Kid Icarus Uprising in which the upgrades are tetris blocks that fit in a square like a puzzle.
I think the Dishonored skill tree is one of the best. There are around 9 powers, each of which can be upgraded to a second more powerful tier, and to unlock or upgrade them you have to collect runes. Runes are hidden all around the map, and incentivize exploring when usually you'd just go straight for the waypoint. Once you've got enough runes for an upgrade, you can choose whether you'd like to put them into a stealthy power or a more combat oriented power, and the options are all very neat. Powers range from stopping time, teleporting, and seeing through walls, to turning enemies into ash when they die, gaining the ability to build up rage for more powerful attacks, or summoning a powerful blast of wind to knock things around. There are also bone charms hidden in a similar manner, but they give you a randomized minor power, and you can only equip a few at a time. I haven't played Dishonored II, but I imagine it functions similarly with more powers.
Mark,
I am really envious of how strong your video editing skills are.
Ever plan on doing a 'video maker's toolkit' series?
Cheers
I think Transistor handled the question perfectly. By linking the skills to the narrative, you would want to unlock them to learn more about the NPCs. Forcing you learn new skills when you died and creating secret combination between skills also made you play differently to adapt to the fights when your favorite power wasn't available.
Great video as always !
I disagree with the implication that PoE's skill tree being large is a negative.
PoE's skill tree is large by design, as in its largeness is part of the point of its existence. It exists in a large form to facilitate exploration of itself by the players, if it were small there would be little need for the play to explore and experiment with paths to certain nodes ect because the number of possibilities would be far lower. PoE has a large skill tree as an end in and of itself, all the other games you showed in this video have used skill trees as a means to the end of engaging gameplay. Interacting with PoE's large skill tree is engaging gameplay.
Fair, but not all of its size is particularly engaging. Sometimes there are multi-level paths that give you no choices at all, and your only real alternative to taking them is to take another, basically identical path. Also a lot of the skills are very bland, even when you ignore the basic stat boosts. It absolutely achieves what you say, but if we could find a way of condensing it without losing that, or a way of making more of the skills interesting, it could be even better.
Absolutely agree with this.
I really like PoE's skill tree. It's precisely because it's big that you have to spend skill points wisely.
With how the nodes are connected, I always ask myself 'How am I going to connect the nodes to get the stats I want while not wasting any skill points?'
It's really fun to figure that out and it might change depending on what gear you have on.
I think this also speaks to the core of FF X's sphere grid in contrast to the chrystarium found in FF XIII. The sphere grid oozed choice and gave each character a playground of their own while allowing you to also make hybrid characters based on unlocking other party member's areas. FF XIII, however, took the act of progression and made it linear to the point where each character couldn't truly branch out much from their intended roles. You COULD choose any of the 6 roles, but each character REALLY only wanted to use a few of them.
i really wouldn't want them to condense it at all. part of the appeal is the pathing in the tree. i've spent hours in path of building optimizing my builds, where it comes down to taking an alternative path to a keystone or something because the alternate path ISN'T identical, as it provides opportunities to access different parts of the tree. i genuinely enjoy the travel nodes of just base str/dex/int because of this pathing idea. not a single node on the tree is bland because of its implications for how you further your build, and because each one adds to the power level of your character in a way that you desire.
it's like painting a picture. sure, if i had a few stamps that i could combine to make a complete picture, that'd be so much quicker with a similar end goal. but i want to use my paint brushes and have that fine control of exactly how i combine things. and it's way more fun to paint a picture with a paintbrush than with a couple large stamps, or just using a paint roller to cover the canvas and say you've painted something.
if poe were to replace their passive tree with one similar to WoW, where it's just "big" talents (that aren't all that interesting), then i would have to imagine people would leave the game in droves. the passive tree is what sets poe truly apart from similar games, alongside its gem system for skills.
I can see the points that all of you are making about how PoE's tree is interesting and engaging gameplay. I'd like to state that while I respect the possibilities it lends, I can't bring myself to even try the game because the skill tree is daunting and there are far too many choices for me to try and learn about, partially because I have a more limited time to game nowadays and I don't feel like dedicating the time to learn these things.
"you don't want to encourage grinding"
*laughs in runescape*
Laughs in literally any MMO
I like when games allow me to buy all of the abilities in a skill tree because it makes me feel like i'm not finished with the game if i don't have them all unlocked even if i can't unlock more of them
Interesting how skill trees work with classes - in RPGs builds/specs are basically subclasses in many cases, but in other games those are the fluid classes which determine the way you play. Also how different games allow you to "respec" to get fresh experience with your advanced character, but in other ones it's interwoven with the story progression and can't be taken back. Maybe some day you'll make another video on the whole "many games in one" concept of classes/characters/builds.
It's what I like about Classic WRPGs. Skill trees available for multiple party members open a ton of options for team building.
In an action game, a skill tree is about finding a playstyle you find fun. But in a more strategic game, finding the optimal role for each character and having them play well off each other can be a large part of the stragety itself.
i don't think path of exile's skill tree is a good example here--most games would be nightmares with that complex a skill tree, true, but path is really unique in how it uses it and in how it relates to the traditional rpg idea of "class." classes in path of exile are (almost) exclusively defined by how they relate to the skill tree, specifically, where they start on it (and which ascendancies they have access to, which are essentially secondary skill trees) path of exile wouldn't work without it imo, or at least it would be a far less interesting and singular game if it were closer to the average skill tree.
You make that sound extremely special, in fact FFX did exactly that ages ago.
@@aeon_zero Not really, in PoE you can make use of the skill tree and different combination of equipment and skill gems to create a whole build/playstyle while in FFX there is not really such thing.
the main problem is that while this is a cool idea, it is very poorly explained in game, and implemented in such a way where by the time you have the opportunity to (noticeably) benefit from your choices, youve already played a massive amount of time. the tree is still huge and confusing, and anyone who doesnt go look up a few youtube videos online will take a few looks at it and then go "never mind"
@@arcanealchemist3190 I'm sorry but the tree was never confusing, if you actually played the game for more than an hour it becomes super easy. I'm not a hardcore veteran Poe player but the skill tree is what made me download it.
@Marc T have you even played PoE? Shadow has more crit nodes nearby, but it's far from being only viable character. For last few leagues summoners were meta, legion was a cyclone league.
Shadow also has limited survivability, evasion and dodge do nothing to stop oneshots.
I prefer player skill systems, instead of the game giving skill based on time played. The less time I have to spend in a menu the better, and if I can maintain a meaningful sense of progression without ever stepping foot into a progression menu then its a perfect game imo. I like the idea of skill being developed by the player through the power of emergent gameplay.
I know this is an old comment, but do you have any examples? Im interested to know more.
The way you level up in skyrim is really cool imo it rewards playing in your own specific style
I can see how it might be too easy to exploit but the basic idea is great and makes sense, the more you do something the better you get at it
How about an endless roguelike that grants skills based on the direction you choose to go from your current room?
Deadcells?
To be fair, Salt&Sanctuary's "skilltree" is not actually a skilltree and rather just a way for players to increase stats and unlock weapon classes. All actual "skills" are acquired by making progress throughout the game, akin to other metroidvania-esque titles. It's pretty much the same as getting new stuff in Metroid, which was mentioned as a good example~
Then why make a skilltree, when you can lvl up like in dark souls
@@Heli483 yeah, it was a strange decision since in everything else salt and sanctuary is 2d dark souls. Also, i find the tree itself to be uninteresting and worse,of the kind you really need to study and plan ahed otherwise you are kind of screwed. It should have been simpefied.
Other problem is that the game uses the nodes of the tree to offer players some lore and its not a great way to do so.
I find the borderlands games (2 and presequel, at least, I havent played the others yet) have really nice skill trees. At least for the classes i gravitate towards. Only being able to completely purchase a single skill tree definitely forced me to pick and choose which playstyle I wanted for that run. And i find Maya and Gaige's skill trees were the most fun, due to all the elemental boosts you could get, or the special add-ons for your action skill
One thing you said about forcing difficult choices spoke to me. I guess I've been trapped into going for the easy option for a long time not only when it comes to games, and only now I've been finding real pleasure from the difficulty of things. It does make games a lot more interesting and fun, from what I've felt :)
I think Gothic 1 and 2's skill tree was cleverly integrated with interacting with specific trainers. You couldn't just be out in the wild, killing monsters and improving your sword technique by attributing skill points. You had to go back to people who had the skills to train you in order to improve with the sword or the bow or what have you.
That was a really interesting and elegant system that I wish more games would borrow... seeking out teachers to learn actual new skills (not just giving you +2 damage or whatever). It wouldn't just improve stats it would actually expand your moveset and improve your stance and stuff.
Prey is such a good game.
Easily one of the most underrated games ever. I don't get the hate beyond "it's not Prey 2"
@@bovinleephann6210 it's great but, sadly, just too lazy and boring in the second half of the game
@@bovinleephann6210 especially since it's better than the original Prey. Just played the old one the other day and while I think it's still a good game, it can't hold up against the new one.
@@bovinleephann6210 Totally agree.
Jump Smash Underrated for sure
Destiny 1 had skill trees built into each weapon itself, which was interesting because you had to grind a lot of experience just to unlock all of the functionality of 1 gun. You also had to do a lot of grinding to unlock the full subclass for each character, which took a long time. I find it interesting that in Destiny 2, each gun still has a simple âskill tree,â but it comes completely unlocked, as well as each subclass, which also comes completely unlocked. The UI for the destiny 2 subclasses is by far my favorite UI when it comes to skill trees.
Googleâs algorithms are so bad that all fans of PoE got recommendations and left these similar arguments.
can't speak to all of us but a lot of us were already here, poe is a fairly popular game
Sometimes a games greatest strength is also it's weakness.
See strategy games with time required to learn them.
For their fans that's a good thing, they want a nice long game they can dig their teeth in and really optimise everything and learning how to play them is usually quite fun, especially if you're already familiar with the UI and previous games the company have made, see paradox games. Play one of the Europa games and you can pretty quickly know what is important and what isn't in crusader kings 2 or victoria 2.
With the added bonus of really feeling like you accomplished something after spending a fair amount of time setting everything up just right. And sheer replayability in building up different empires and such.
For other folks it would be a nightmare, and some strategy games are so bad at teaching the players how to play they basically rely on player updated wiki's and youtube tutorials to do the hard work for them.
Some even forgo tutorials entirely just relying on pop-up icons to explain a mechanic once and hope the player figures it out by losing until they read a game guide.
Other genres like roguelikes rely on death as a means of teaching the player. Putting the onus on the player to learn the game. Like it's some sort of obscure and special treasure that requires attention to learn it's secrets. I mean it does when you don't teach the player anything.
Many platformers seem to emulate this, whether by design or happenstance I can't tell. But their playerbase is usually quite happy with this design choice and often make a big stink when the devs even so much as hint at introducing a change to the game that might make it easier.
I hate when I boot up a new game and see the skill tree and go "alright. these all look pretty decent" and now I know all the skills I could possibly get. I want a surprise skill tree. You pick up some old relic and the skill tree grows another branch or something. I don't play enough games to know any that do this, but it would help preserve the sense of mystery while still being able to think about the cool things I have to work towards already.
I mean.. in a way the mentioned Typhon abilities in prey and also the "hidden upgrades" in the last deus ex game, mankind divided are along the lines of what you want. They just pop up way to early and only once, so its not much of a surprise if you inform yourself about those games at all. But the more i think about the idea the cooler i think this could be in a huge rpg, that would also mean locking skills to certain stats, imo. But i really think this could be done with careful planning on the devs and players end.
Thanks for bringing this idea up and reminding me about the possibilities this could have.
It would be fun to have a game that starts with a very simplistic skilltree and you're like "ok so this was an afterthought but fair enough." And then a 3rd into the game your character gets killed and resurrected by a magic bear and when you come back you have a third eye and your skilltree is suddenly 20 times bigger.
God of War has exactly what you described. A surprise skill tree.
I think Nier automata did agreat job with this, it doesn't look like an ordinary skilltree, but its purpose is the same. You can select from a wide variety of skills/upgrades (called chips), the better they are, the more space they occupy in the limited 'memory slot'
What's cool is that other game elements, such as minimap and damage numbers, also occupy some space, meaning you have to choose between lets say having a minimap, or a better upgrade
That's not a tree. You're picking freely from a set of options, not going down a set of pre-requisites to get to another upgrade.
@@grodon909 that's kinda my point, it's nice to see another approach to it than just the same old tree format
Yeah I also liked the system in Nier. This kind of "mod system" is also used by Warframe. The core idea is similar, you have some points, upgrades and slots. I really like it.
2:50 *Looks at Borderlands 2 character skill trees*
No one mentions Grim Dawn? Combinations of two classes, which still yield more than one way to play for each combination, plus the giant devotion skilltree for passive and triggered abilities. Damn I love this game.
Path of Exile's skill tree is actually why the game has been relevant for so long. I'd say its so different than our preception of a skill tree that we couldn't possibly compare it to normal skill trees. It allows players to create new builds, which would be a different class altogether. Its like creating a MOBA character through skill trees but with far more abilities and more freedom to riff on that build.
Again, FFX (a game I actually despise) did that many years before, and I have a feeling other games did it too. Not sure why everyone in these comments is so excited about this idea, sounds interesting on paper but in the end it's actually a bit useless.
I love your videos Mark and appreciate your opinion but I have to disagree with most of your points.
I personally hate when all skills aren't possible in your playthrough; I don't find it immersive I find it limiting. And I don't like needing to do side missions to unlock essential movesets; bc side missions are hit and miss at times.
I think overall Spider-Man did it pretty well comparitively to other recent games, with your basic movesets being expanded by the tree.
A lot of great stuff was in side missions, with those upgrades feeling like cool add ons rather than expanding Spidey's base abilities.
But health and swinging speed were upgraded automatically outside of the skill tree with new levels and the skill points were given at each level to use at your discretion.
But all the moves you need to enjoy the game are given at the start but the unlocked skills are almost all really useful.
I respect your opinion as always, but I do feel this situation is a bit more biased towards your personal tastes than your usual general inprovement ideas
Crazelord91 i agree with you on this one. Both that I respect and appreciate Marks content in these videos, but also that I disagree with him in most points in this video. For me skill trees has little to do with limiting the experience and Making hard choices. It has more to do with progressing in power to take on more difficult foes. I want a game to always be hard. In the beginning but also in the end when you understand the control of the game mechanics the best. I donât ever want to be overpowered. But you will be when you go back and fight the first enemies in the game. I want stronger and smarter foes as I progress in the game and a smart skill tree is a way to make you fel that. I think horizon is doing this pretty good.
@@alexanderjohansson4194 That's a good point as well. The enemies should match the increase in skills and become more difficult to put your new skills to use.
I think Spiderman did that pretty well also. While I don't know if the game made the enemies scaled to your level, once the thugs were replaced by demons they started kicking my ass but my skills got me to a point where they were still always a challenge but just easier to beat
Dead Space's power cells were fun to find, and you could even purchase 1 at each store (also nice that they limit that). But it sucked to finally get one, and have to use it on a blank node. The skill maze for it was pretty cool, but I hated getting nothing for my hard earned powerup.
I wonder what you think about skill trees that expand organically based on the way that you play the game. For example, in the new Wolfenstein games your character gains new abilities and skills based on your personal playstyle. If you elect to more stealthy approaches, the game will grant you stealth skills, and if you pursue a much louder and rambunctious path, the game rewards you with skills to better facilitate that.
Have you ever played Vampyr? I loved how it put the difficulty of the game in the player's hands, and tied it into moral choices, through its use of its skill trees.
I usually don't like that kind of stuff, but I admit Vampyr did it very well. The game is extremely smart in general, even though it's not flashy.
Hey, don't you go hating on Path of Exile, it's skill tree is a thing of beauty and suits the game perfectly and allows for an endless amount of different viable builds.
For PoE specifically, it's super complex and sprawling tree is pretty much a core mechanic. The game isn't just an ARPG, it's also a character-building game
@@Freqsol Exactly. That's why prior to each new league, the "Path of Exile" twitch page is filled, not with people playing Path of Exile, but with people in the Path of Exile build planner.
path of exile is so boring though, you just get some gear and spam the same move over and over, there's no challenge, i'm like lvl 27 half way through act 2 and it takes me like 5 minutes to die in a crowd not doing anything.
@@darthvader2994 Level 27 and Act 2 is like, the tutorial though. :P
Darth Vader acts are basically a very long tutorial. Epilogue is where the fun is. I understand why you would find the start boring though
I really like the skyrim skill tree style allowing a few very full trees to be unlocked so you have personalization but a good variety
1:39 Funny that Metroid shows up here. I was thinking during the earlier parts âwell, Metroid trickles out different power-ups and gives you incentive to use them without a skill tree. It just bakes these improvements into the course of the campaign rather than doing it through EXP.â
Now wait a second here, Path of Exile's tree is perfectly reasonable for the type of game it is. If that was the tree for a single-player story driven game then yeah, it's dumb, but it's for a game where the basic purpose is to play with as many characters and builds as possible, and the tree is instrumental in facilitating that. Pretty disingenuous bit there if you ask me.
How does that even contradict what he said? If one build picks chaos inoculation and another does not, fair difference. If one has 10 more intelligence while another has 10 more strength which is fair to call a less meaningful difference, I'd say calling him disingenuous is pretty disingenuous.
I disagree.. in part, the skill tree in Poe does have enough content to support having so many different skills in the game, but to any one player, over 90% of the skill tree might as not be there. As well, if it's not a major node/keystone, it's not even worth mentioning.
Even comparing between major nodes, there are plenty that are mathematically and objectively better choices than others, such as the Scion health wheel. A vast amount of the tree ends up having no purpose besides being s trap for new players to think the nodes are good. A vast amount of any advanced players skill tree just runs around grabbing a few important nodes and the rest is mostly health with a few super efficient damage nodes en route
Divinity Original Sin 2 doesn't have a skill tree per se, but they do skillsets extremely. The game forces you to choose a specific playstyle while having other characters fulfill another role. Things like stats, special abilities, and passives are separate and you can put points into different skills depending on how you play, each with advantages. You gain points by leveling up, but leveling up is a slow process and you gain xp through completing quests, finding new areas and winning combat. Divinity Original Sin 2 has quite possibly one of the best leveling systems I've ever seen in a game.
I still really love the skill trees in mass effect and dragon age, where it's both a question of which skills (usually attacks) do I wanna unlock for each character and which ones are worth upgrading, based on my preferences/playstyle.
Nice video. Very helpful for me as an amateur indie game dev. Please do an episode on crafting systems as I feel many games have very shallow/generic crafting systems. Keep up the great work
The skill tree points in Mario + Rabbids had to be found by solving optional puzzles in the overworld, encouraging exploration in an otherwise linear game. That was a really good idea.
It didn't need those puzzles, but it benefited from them. You get the upgrade orbs passively from completing chapters as well as side challenges, which seems to be my and many other's preferred method of getting points: having them be unlocked through main gameplay and enhanced by side activities.
My favourite skill trees is from the sims 4 vampire, you have to take one weakness to learn new power, stuff like vomit when eat human food or uncontrollable hissing
I always read âDishonoredâ as âDish onoredâ
Great video, thanks Mark!
Like most of these comments, I also like the skill tree in PoE. Its size doesn't devalue it; and although i understand and support the argument of quality over quantity, PoE is not one of those cases in my opinion. Great video as always Mr. Brown!
Wow, I didn't realize it but they really do have 3 different skill trees in like every game now a days huh?
or more and that's why I like path of exile, one big with many options to make your character better and the skill system is also completly separate from the passive tree.
I like skill trees like the witcher 3s for example where u can only use a few skills at once. There are only 12 skill slots for 100 or so skills which force you to chose exactly what kind of play style you want (combat, alchemy, or signs). Choosing a mix of the three wonât work and you will be too weak late game. Additionally you gain access to those 12 skill slots over time encouraging you to improve the skills you already have instead of acquiring new ones, pairing skills of the same type with mutagens gives u stat boosts, and you wonât gain enough skill points (unless u do ng+) to unlock even a quarter of the abilities. This all works to encourage players to adapt one play style instead of just choosing the coolest abilities. But at the same time, u can buy an item for 1000 crowns (roughly 3 monster contracts worth of work) to reset the skill tree, so u can try out different playstyles without starting a new game.
One more recent game that did "skill trees" in an interesting way was Hades. While most of the basic abilities and Boons were independent, getting more boons from one god would build up the effects of that gods basic boons, or provide synergies with other abilities, either explicitly, or through gameplay interactions. And each upgrade only let you choose between a few abilities from the entire available pool. So if you wanted to go for a certain combination of interdependent abilities, you can't just buy them in an upgrade tree, you have to keep an eye out for chances to get them, or choose not to get abilities that might limit your options later.
And since there's no guarantee you'll get any particular ability or upgrade in a given run, this leads to times when you try and fail to get a certain combination, meaning you have to improvise and figure out how to capitalize on what you do get.
I'd be careful about rewarding skill points for skilled play.
You're kinda getting in a loop of 'better players get more rewards, so they play better, while worse players get less rewards, so they play worse.'
I think it's usually possible to match the type of reward with the type of player for doing the type of thing they do. Like, give cosmetics to roleplayers for roleplaying. Give lore and art to explorers for exploring. Give weapons and moves to people who fight with "style". When it comes to endgame difficulty, giving people who beat it more strength is pointless, since there's nothing left to use it on. But that kind of player might appreciate yet more difficulty; maybe a New Game Plus with a handicap and new achievements to acknowledge the accomplishment?
That said, I'm less sure about what to do about pure power. Power is something all players are going to intuitively want and it's something games often intuitively grant, but it's also inextricably tied to how a game is paced and its challenge set. It might be more logical for games to keep power more carefully controlled, just like how a lot of progression through Super Metroid is based on how high you can jump, so that game is very careful about meting out powerups that affect your jump height.
Very true, albeit something that must also exist in balance with preventing grinding. If a player can make their game easier just by repeating tedious easy actions, something has gone wrong.
This sort of stuff is why difficulty settings exist in the first place: so less skilled and more skilled players can have an engaging and balanced experience from the same game.
Stuff that difficulty should be used to gauge:
>Progression throughout the game's central campaign or plot sequence. Gradually rising in difficulty up to the default standard end point, which should be of mid-to-high difficulty.
>Side challenges that focus on specific sklls. In addition to a wide range of challenge types, there should be skill variation within these challenges so the less skilled can push themselves to clear the basic stuff and get a neat reward that will help them tackle the central gameplay with more panache. For more skilled player, whichever challenges they do *first* grants such upgrades, while exercising the skill to do more grants optional sidegrades to vary gameplay up.
Though it makes sense in a game like DMC. Specifically DMC4, because that's the one that finally figured things out. Skills in DMC don't make you more powerful, they give you more combat options. If you're playing badly then you're not making very good use of the options you already have, so giving a player like that a bunch more options isn't really going to do anything for them. There's usually a small handful of essentials that even bad players will be able to afford, and everything after that is ways for the stylish to get more stylish, so they're the ones who get the most points. 4's important step in this area was to separate skill upgrade currency (proud souls) from the currency to buy items such as health upgrades (red orbs). That was good for a couple reasons, and this is one of them.
@@Xick Im reading this comment and right beside it, in the recommended list of videos, yet again from GMToolkit, a video called "How Games Get Balanced" appears.
On Skyrim: While I know that many players think that everything besides the combat is just flavour, I actually want to play it as a ROLE playing game. And if I want to play the role of a blacksmith, I have to craft a lot of daggers/armor/swords/whatever. I LIKED the grind as part of the gameplay, because it is a ROLE playing game, not a hack & slash.
On the Final Fantasy Sphere Grid: It uses 'buffers' to make sure you have to walk a path through it, not simply pick a couple of skills. They slow down the progression so that the game can deal out steps more often without letting you boost through it. I am not sure if I like that, but that's what I think why it is so emormously big. (Well, that and the fact that it is meant for all of the characters simultaniously, not just one, so you build your party there, not an individual character, so 'forrest' is a pretty accurate term).
This video mostly assumed that only combat and traversal/world exploration are valid gameplay, but I disagree. Exploring the Skill Grids can be gameplay, grinding can be gameplay, carefully planning your build can be gameplay. Sure, it requires more active participation of the player and more intrinsic motivation, but I feel that (AAA) games lately lack opportunity for intrinsic motivation, they are just big skinner boxes, dressed up in fancy graphics and hidden behind false 'choices'.
@BronzeGod What constitutes a good role playing game in your opinion? And where is Skyrim lacking? I find that I have to do a lot of the characterization in my imagination, since the game does not offer a lot of venues to do it. On the other hand I CAN do it in my imagination, and am not forced into "space hero horny for everyone Shepard" just by choosing the nice dialog options. I'd agree that e.g. Fallout New Vegas has a much better role play, but I still liked Skyrim in this regard.
I'm planning on making a game, so your channel really helps me with ideas, the do' s and don'ts! Thank you so much :)
Have you progressed your game in this month?
i really like how borderlands does skill trees, you don't have enough points at max level to max out every skill but so you have to weigh what skills will help you play and help you weapons feel more effective. and almost every skill interacts with each other ranging from deliberate (like adding a stacking system with one skill and having those stacks give new effect later in the tree) to less obvious (as simple as bonus gun damage making getting kill skills proc'd easier) and even wild synergies where skill on different parts of the tree work together in a way other games avoid. and having guns and other items work with these skills in ways that mean there is even more options and reasons to get each skill over another. this ultimately makes me continue to play those games because even with the same character there are so many different ways i can move the points around to get a slightly different or vastly different effect than before.
"Skill trees feel like one of those systems that are in every game nowadays simply because.. they are in every game nowadays".
That resumes exactly my feelings about skill trees in most of the games. I have even started questioning if we really need skill trees in RPGs... Am I loosing my mind?
Anyway, I agree with what Mark Brows suggest between lines: Doom didn't need skill trees at all. Wrong genre. Adding things just for the sake of adding is not going to improve the game.
And regarding Deus Ex Human Revolution I thought that the progression system was broken. Playing in hard difficulty the game is not really hard. Throughout the game you get way too many skill points, especially if you do simple tricks like accessing an office by 3 different paths: find the key code, hack the lock and use the ventilation system. Then you get more skill points than you really need. Moreover I found that half of the skills are there just to make the game easier/ more casual, but not more interesting or exciting. Believe me if I tell you that I ended the game with a lot of skill points unused because I didn't want to unlock that rubbish.
Yes, you asked for our favourite skill trees in the comments, but for some reason I find easier to remember about the negative experiences. And you mentioned Deus Ex in the video.
We don't need them in RPGs - There are several RPGs I can think of, older and more modern, that get by just fine without them - Brogue, FFVII, FFIX, Persona, and Pokemon all off the top of my head.
Nothing wrong with them in RPGs of course, I like a good skill tree (Though when you start to add a skill tree to every weapon in the game that unlocks independently as that weapon gets ap specifically for that... You might want to cool it on your skill trees just a tad), but... It's demonstrable that not every RPG needs a skill tree in that there are very successful, high quality, RPGs without a skill tree, meaning they're certainly not necessary in every non RPG.
You're right, RPG's don't need skill trees. Some just have levels, which gives you 'some stat boost', like errr... I suppose Undertale is technically like that, so yeah.
Oh man. I'm loving the skill trees in Doom. I know by the end of it, I get to have all of it but it really let me customize things first. Each of the gun mods brings a nice new flavor to each of the guns, the rune system let's you customize your gameplay experience (and you only have three slots to fill from a choice of like 10 or so). I know Doom may not NEED a skill tree but I definitely enjoyed it. It goes right along with Mark was saying. I'd look for upgrades, play, acquire them and have a blast using them / incorporating them into the gameplay.
I agree with you (and Mark) on this, I really really hate skilll trees in my stealth games! Deus Ex was good, but it became the new standard and now every game needs to be as open as this. So now, every single challenge in Splinter Cell and Metal Gear Solid has like 4-5 different solutions with usually a lazy one to fit all skill tree configurations. I miss the days where you had one or two tight, well designed and empowering solutions that actually makes you use the full array of your abilities because the designer knew exactly what tools the player have at this time in the game.