The Surprising Political Leanings Behind the LDS Heartland Movement
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The Surprising Political Leanings Behind the LDS Heartland Movement
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From my observation all heartlanders are also constitutionalists with a solid understanding of the covenants associated with the the promised land.
This! See the American covenant by Timothy Ballard
Facts!!!
Exactly. Heartlanders understand the American Covenant. It makes so much more sense that the United States is the covenant land today through Ephraim and the covenant land of the BoM time through Manasseh, the two sons of Joseph (Egypt), with Joseph (Smith) being the restorer of these truths and the bridge. Too many things to say in one comment, but the Heartland is most definitely the leading model.
@@UncleFetzI must gall Heartlanders to see Mesoamerican artwork in temples. Many Heartlanders reject the seer stone used in translation which the church accepts.
@@figdickmun Nah. I don't view the display of art in temples as a doctrinal statement by the church any more than I consider the video as a doctrinal statement of how the earth must've been created. They are simply teaching aids meant to provoke thought and beautify the experience.
In terms of the seer stone, I haven't personally seen a connection with that and the heartland theory. Am I missing something? I accept both. Is that problematic?
My dad is an 80s Reagan conservative republican who believes in the meso model.
So, despite being raised that way, I quit the republican party during the Bush era, going independent/libertarian/constitution. My eyes were opened to the secret Combinations controlling our society and just how pervasive it is. The heartland speaks true to me.
I did the same thing. Take a look at the Independent American Party. I'm guessing your Dad's leanings toward Meso-America has more to do with the age than anything else.
Welcome to the club.
Me too, I joined the Constitution Party. I wish they can figure out how to win something though.
@@BrianTerrill Joel Skousen knows he won't win, but hopes to open eyes with a large enough chunk of voters to let people know we deserve to be heard. He's got my vote. Constitution party seems to have infiltration into the party. What's with the Terry Broden campaign that popped up after the party asked Skousen to run?
Or... you can pick a party where your vote counts a little in the primaries. I used to think 3rd party was somehow noble, but rally their candidates are just as disappointing, they don't stand a chance, and they often dilute the conservative vote and put the nation at arguably more risk. Think Perot, Johnson, Paul. Good candidates, but 0 impact. Stick to libertarian/constitution views, but maybe dont turn your vote's power to the left. I'm done voting 3rd party unless, perhaps they can get 30-40% of the vote in the final election. Stakes are too high to have a "principled" ego trip. Unfortunately, today, we do need to vote for the lesser of 2 evils, as painful as that is. For the same reason, I support the left voting their "conscience" to a green or independent party.
It blows my mind that ANYONE would bring politics in to this. I remember my Institute teacher at college talking about the Hopewell and their possible ties to the Book of Mormon- that was 35-36 years ago- and It never even occurred to me that he “must be a conservative”. It just made sense that it was possible! The Garden of Eden was HERE. The Hill Cumorah where Moroni buried the plates is HERE. It seemed perfectly logical that when Heavenly Father sent the Jaredites and Lehi to the “promised land”, that He would have sent them HERE. The place where the restoration took place was HERE. Even the final gathering is supposed to happen HERE. This land, FROM THE BEGINNING, has been where everything was meant to start and end. So it seems perfectly plausible that HERE is where He sent them to find the promised land. That’s not “political”. It’s just LOGICAL to come to that conclusion or at least suspect it. It’s certainly not irrefutable- it’s also very possible that he DID send them to MesoAmerica. But for anyone to think that believing it was here is some sort of “nationalist” thing is just absurd.
Right? I am a conservative, but I am not a Heart lander. I can believe the promised land to be all of the land mass that was discovered.
You do realize that Mexico and Guatemala are part of North America, right? Why can't they be "here" too? I've heard stories that the city of Enoch was where the Gulf of Mexico is located now but haven't been able to verify the quote, but if it was, would only the sides bordering the current US be "here" or the whole of it including the parts that border Mexico?
I'm on the Heartland side, and I'm British.
So what. I'm Cornish and I'm on the Meso side.
@@BrianTerrill I pointed out my nationality because I've heard people on the Meso side say Heartlanders are biased because they're American.
@@theoelliott5944 people on the Meso side don't say anything of the sort, what we do say is they are white nationalist, because they are. Some of the Heartlanders if you read their stuff will argue that Nephites made it to Great Britain but they get all freaked out when we point out Latter Day Prophets have said the polynesian people are decendants of those who were on Hagoth's ship.
Basically their whole rational is the Book of Mormon had to have taken place in the current United States for no other logical reason than because they worship the American flag.
@@BrianTerrill 🤪
@@BrianTerrill Your statement is quite Corny. It must have something to do with that Cornish thing.
Why does it matter. Sadly people will argue anything. Just live the teachings of our Lord.🙏🇦🇺👍
All truth is circumscribed into one great whole. The prophet Joseph Smith said "...a man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge..."
So it may not matter to you, but it most certainly does matter. I encourage you to read chapter 22 of 'Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith.'
I hear this sentiment spoken as a rebuke from time to time in Elders Quorum. Anything that's not specifically outlined in the manual gets stamped out because "it's not vital for our salvation". I'm afraid many in the modern church have grown apathetic toward seeking after truth. "If the Brethren haven't said anything about it, it's not worth our time pursuing," goes the logic. What a sad and boring perspective.
It matters a great deal in terms of understanding the covenants which are outlined in the Book of Mormon, and in the Old Testament, and the New Testament, and the Pearl of Great Price. It just depends on if we really want to learn truth, and accept the truths that the Lord wants to give us. He wouldn't have written so much about the Abrahamic covenant, if it wasn't IMPORTANT TO HIM. He WANTS us to understand more than the average person does. The scriptures are absolutely filled with it, and the role of America.
truth leads to enlightenment and in turn understanding which leads to more truth and more understanding and it goes on and on growing, expanding, gaining knowledge and understanding, you sir or madam have become spiritually apathetic. The diamonds of the gospel are keep secret from the insincere and casual perusal of the scriptures will not yield spiritual diamond's - Boyd k Packer. we must dig for greater truth and further understanding. it matters. your like the people Nephi quoted in 2nd Nephi 29 saying "a bible we have a bible we need no more bible"
I'm very very conservative but the meso- american model makes more sense to me. Andrew klavan said it best: R vs D is the stupid party versus the evil party!
Need to break free from the parties paradigm. Neither has your best interest at heart, and both are controlled by the elites and corporate interests.
You mean those robbers as mentioned in Ether 8? Those control the whole of it.
I’m conservative and everyone I know who is Heartland side is conservative so I don’t know if that’s true but that’s purely anecdotal on my part. I would actually think it’s more of a generation thing than a political thing.
I'm also conservative and also believe in the heartland model and I totally agree with you.
The evidence was too strong to deny the heartland argument.
Same 😊
This is true. Heartland is mostly conservative, and frankly MesoAmerican is also mostly conservative. The difference is that most Heartland people I know are more open-minded and in tune with American history. The other group is set in their generational learnings and less willing to evaluate a new theory.
I agree. I think it's a generational thing. My parents don't question the official narrative on anything and are pretty conservative/right leaning.
I used to be meso , but now I’m heartland all the way. It makes sense.
I hear heartlanders say "It makes sense" a lot without actually explaining why or how they think it makes sense. It sounds like a brainwashing ritual unless you can articulate why it makes sense.
I keep hearing "it makes sense" from a lot of people like it's some sort of mlm slogan or something. Why do you guys repeat it like that so often?
I'm a new convert. Also a life long democrat and I'm more inclined to believe in the heartland model.
When I moved into the heartland in 87 I knew this was a special place, you can feel it. 3 mi down the road are the natural forts! It's amazing,❤
Growing up I was told the BoM took place in South America. I had no reason to think otherwise and didn't question why JS found the plates in NY. Why? Because I just assumed HF transported them to where they were needed. Palmer was the one I ever heard talk about the possibility it all took place in what is now the eastern USA. It was a huge, "Oh...duh..." moment.
No need for magical transportation if that's where Mormon actually buried them
I just don’t believe that the great land that God built up was in Guatemala or Southern Mexico
I remember growing up and members would say, "The Book of Mormon took place in some place like Guatemala or Peru. So that means the United States of America is the promised land."
@@CMZIEBARTH bingo!!!❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
@@CMZIEBARTHMormon logic at its finest. 😂😂
Why not? Its all north america. It seems like this theory comes from political preference and preconceptions. And how you'd prefer things to be.
I’m glad and feel blessed to not waste my time and energy on this topic. Simply because, The Book of Mormon is not about geography, that’s not even a question.
Well I'm conservative and I think the Heartland Model is correct. So am I an anomaly or do I flow with the tide?😳😀
No, you are exactly what he is talking about.
Your fine!!!!
I am and have been a staunch conservative since I could first vote in 1968, I side with heartland.
I'm conservative, traditional constitutionalist. Being a traditionalist tends to make me anti establishment, within the church the establishment is represented by the majority of academics, or anyone who tells me not to question the established narrative.
Yes! Now the academics are trying to change/take our hill away from us. I call bull on that. As if Joseph didn't know the hill he pulled the plates from, he only talked the guy who buried them there on numerous occasions.
Haha. You have to believe the Heartland Model, or else.
I’m conservative but open minded enough to hear truth. When you close your mind and are not humble you can miss out on the mysteries of God. The scriptures teach us to be humble and teachable like a child. This I feel is key to many things in the gospel and politics.
I can't believe this debate is so divisive. The book of Mormon is true regardless of where it took place.
Absolutely!
Decisive for the reason laid out by Greg.
Do we know there are national covenants with God associated with the correct real estate and attached deed restrictions?
@@rconger24 yeah. The Old Testament......the children of Israel
It’s decisive because the anti Mormon pundits use geography against us. An attempt to gain clarity is an attempt to protect and strengthen our own. For instance when the guest receives a dvd about dna and geography and wants to take a good family out of the covenant
We feel helpless when we don’t have an answer other than as you would say, “that doesn’t matter how your feeling just go and live the gospel that dna video will go away!” I don’t know that your logic will invite the spirit when a friend or family member is in crisis. Aside from that living the gospel brings us to Moronis observation, “ Why have you polluted the church of G*d?” And Christ admonition that there be no disputations among you and then clarifying what needs to be done.
There is clarity here but are we able to receive it? It’s like the old minister in the endowment “if I join you what will become of me? Is the guest, the host and all the “Sorensonites” going to stop selling books giving tours and doing podcasts to receive revelation and clarity on this topic? What would become of them? Church leadership called for the dissolution of FARMS and the same group reorganized as the Maxwell Institute almost as if to be sarcastic against leadership. We tend to not be a very humble meek and obedient people at times.
I've observed similar political and social alignments. Older members seem to like the Meso-American model more because of folks like Jack West. I like the Heartland model. It just makes more sense and hits a lot of scriptural, historical, and other things right for me.
I left the Utah Republican Party over 13 years ago when I found out how truly corrupt many of the elite members of the party were. I'm much more heavily about the individual I vote for and support now. So many people didn't realize that Romney was part of those who were trying to dismantle the grass-roots power the caucus system has. I won't go in the Democrat direction unless I know the values of the individual running are good. I am very traditional, and yet those traditional values would solve so many of the present-day problems we have. There are a lot of people in government who don't believe that people can solve their own problems.
I’m not from Utah but I registered as an independent about 13 years ago when I became very disillusioned about both dominant parties in the USA. I don’t know if I buy into the Uniparty dialogue, but corruption is rampant on both sides of the fence.
Mittens went from misguided to corrupt in my mind during that 4 year stretch after his bid for the presidency
@@amynazza I completely agree and I've been on a similar trajectory. Parties are hostile toward actual representation of their constituents because they are each promoting their agenda and seeking more money and power.
I’ve always thought this! Yes!
My heartland strings came completely out of the blue. In visiting the area for the first time 7 years ago I told my husband I strongly feel the spirit that the mounds and archaeological sites come from Book of Mormon history. I had never heard of conflict on the issue at that point nor did I try to guess when exactly the people would have lived there. I only knew they did and so that's that. Purely through the spirit. Now it's fascinating for me to hear it talked about ALOT. So cool! But always hate to find politics when you're really just trying to sort through history. Thanks for addressing this too. Loved it
Beautifully said. After seeing the evidence in the heartland, I know that those are burial grounds for those who died in war. The BOM even states that people were buried in mass graves because they were so many casualties.
Heartland side, Australian, conservative
I was so disappointed when Greg said this. And now he made it into a highlight video like it’s a great point. I’m not a heartlander bc of certain personality traits that I have no control over. I’m a heartlander and conservative bc I value truth.
I'm not sure about this. I'm conservative but prefer the Mesoamerica model. Although I'm not as strict a conservative as some. I think the party has gone astray even before Trump (but especially since then) and I am more of an environmentally conscious conservative. I am also very fiscally conservative and believe strongly in the importance of the Constitution. Rather than a political leaning difference, I see it more with the theory of evolution. I see a tendency with Heartlander folks to not believe in evolution (while believing in a young earth) while the Mesoamerican folks (like me) believing in evolution as the means God worked through for an ongoing creation, and a very ancient earth.
Evolution is statistically impossible and would be extremely inefficient. Also, there's no concrete evidence for it that can't be explained through more plausible means. Placing plants and animals here from one of trillions of other planets makes more sense if there is a God. So, you're right, because I'm also a heartland leaning trump conservative. Lol.
I read the Book of Mormon saying they filled ALL of the land, both NORTH and SOUTH to mean that they filled this entire western hemisphere and the continents of both North America and South America. Where was the center of the civilization that spread through both continents? Here in the United States. But there are too many legends from all tribes north and south, too many prophetic declarations of them being children of Lehi, and my husband personally going on medical missions to remote areas in places like Guatemala where they require interpreters from Spanish to native and then from native to more remote native languages- and the names these people give for them selves are names like “Nephihah”. In the thousand years that the Nephites lived here, they most certainly spread to all of both North and South America.
It doesn’t matter to
Me. The Book of Mormon was written by the prophets and people who traveled to this land. It is another witness of Jesus Christ. It was translated by Joseph Smith, Jr. under the direction of Jesus Christ.
There is so much more that I don’t know about the book. I hope to learn more.
I’m a conservative who doesn’t really buy into the Heartland Model. I’m kind of partial to the Baja California model actually. It makes the most sense geographically in my mind. But who knows? I’m open to any theory because we don’t know yet where The Book of Mormon took place
I thought it took place in the US long before I heard of any heartland theory because of 1 Nephi 13. It's the promised land, the land of the free, separated from our mother country. "the Gentiles that had gone out of captivity were delivered by the power of God out of the hands of all other nations.
It's all speculation, and speculation is intended to be fun, not doctrine. I like a few different models. I think several make sense to me... however, with new DNA evidence, I'm leaning towards the Heartland Model.
Regardless, the BOM is true.
So we still don’t know or can pin point the location of major events?
Is it not fishy?
Why didn’t Smith tell us?
And then get the areas excavated?
@@kylethedalek watch the entire episode. It explains much of what you are asking for.
@@kylethedalekJoseph Smith knew. The 1st missionaries went to preach to the Lamanites. The local indigenous tribes of the Northeast. D&C 28:8
Morgan philpot has it right, we should, like Elder Maxwell, rise above such things.
I have noticed, too, that if one served a mission for the church in Central or South America you believe firmly in the meso American theories of the Book of Mormon. I have watched the lads on the “Ward Radio” pod cast rip on heartland era for about a year now and their underlying objection seems not to be logic as much as it is the emotional bond and love for the people that they served on their missions. I use this as an example that is public. I have yet to run into a church member that does not fit this hypothesis
I served my mission in England. I think the Mesoamerican model is more consistent with the text and with what Joseph Smith actually taught than the carefully filtered emotional politically based Heartland model being sold by May and Meldrum. They have turned their gospel hobby into a money making venture.
P. S. I have NEVER voted for a Democrat since 1980.
I guess i don't fit your model. Sorry.
@@UtahKent Exactly and they live the abundant life by setting themselves as a light in the gospel. The tour's alone are outrageous amounts of money.
Christ gives the greatest insight to the heartland vs mezzo American debate in 3 Nephi 27:4
Anyone bringing politics into the teachings are prioritizing their political leanings over the teachings of the church. It’s not hard to acknowledge you’re marinating large chunks of your politics into the church’s views
This is the best support of the Heartland model. I saw the video of an apostle of the church saying that the scholars are wrong. He said Mezzo america model is false. He also said that the prophets have declared that the Book of Mormon took place in North America. Also, the Book of Mormon straight upset it. If you look at Nephi's vision A land of liberty, the mother nation will go to battle again them, Is a man with the spirit of God upon him crossing the sea, A group of men with the spirit of God upon them would lead this nation, The Gentiles shall inherit the land of my people, And the Lamanites being scourged. Is the land of liberty the United States, the mother nation Great Britain battling against the United States, the man crossing the sea Christopher Columbus, The group of men leading the nation, The Founding Fathers, The gentiles inherit in the land the land of the Nephites belong to the United States, And the Lamanites being scourged The Is Native American reservations, Land token, Massacres, Diseases, Their culture being destroyed, The US Government sending the US Army after them. Everything lines up. Not to mention everything that The Prophet Joseph Smith Said and did. He sent missionaries my own ancestor outwest to teach the Native Americans, but he called them Lamanites. The Prophet also saying this is the land of the Nephi. Joseph said the altar Adam-ondi-Ahman was a Nephite altar. Joseph also saying this skull belonged to a Nephite great warrior. The Prophets, The Book of Mormon, and the words of the Prophet Joseph Smith all point to the United States As the land of the Nephites and Lamanites. God made it clear.
Columbus never set foot in North America
@@emcasado Assuming that's the case (and you're probably right), does that change the argument being made? The Book of Mormon never says "North America". It talks about "the promised land" and "this land". Even if he landed in Cuba or elsewhere in the Caribbean, it still seems to apply.
Greg,
Just how in the hell does this pertain to my eternal salvation?
It doesn't. I don't just cover things that pertain to your eternal salvation. Did you think I did?
I’m not R or D. But when it comes to the model I subscribe to…
What does the book say???
Both models have evidences, both have reasonings, but have reasonable considerations…. But 1st N 13 puts it all to rest.
Nephi see’s the the land upon the Revolutionary War takes place then…. the Angel goes to say on vs 30 “which is the land that the Lord God hath covenanted with thy father that his seed should have for the land of their inheritance”
Where did the revolutionary war take place?
Plain as day.
Far more evidence than just the revolutionary war. Please read Church History on Zions March. Joseph wrote Emma that they were wandering over the plains of the Nephites. I always understood that Zions Camp went from Kirtland to Missouri. Did they take a detour via Central America? I don't think so. Also another thing Joseph told the brethren on Zions Camp was when they neared a town called Huntsville. Can't remember the State. It was the location of the city of Manti. Fit that into the Meso-America theory.
I don't even live in the Americas and I can work this all out. I am not a liberal but I do believe in our Prophets and Revelation. Ponder for a few minutes this question: Why is the Garden of Eden in the USA along with Adam Ondi Ahman. If the Book of Mormon says the promised land will be a land not governed by Kings and that the Gentiles shall possess it as long as they remain righteous. Which other country in the whole of North America and South America can claim that except the USA?
Wake up people and use that brain God gave each of us.
There was a revolution war in every other country in central and south America.
Or maybe the more accurate division is those that fully support and defend the Joseph Smith (including his political views), And those who think they have progressed beyond what Joseph knew.
Is it politics or reason and logic that contributes to which model a person finds compelling?
I'm not sure if this is divided politically. The meso theory is based on church scholars and researchers, not necessarily nonchurch scholars. The heartland is based on church scholars, researchers, Phrophets and Apostles, scriptures, and semitic artifacts that have little accedemic support. Mesoamerica theorist seem to put their trust in LDS scholars and some evidence but little revelation or minimize what Joseph Knew. For me, this isn't a political thing but a people thing.
My advice is to find things out for yourself. I believe in the Heartland model not becuase of Rod or Wayne but becuase of my own research and a lot of my research aligns with Rod and Wayne but some of my research doesn't align with other heartland researchers. Even though i believe the heartland is a good fit for the Book of Mormon, I haven't stopped learning about Mesoamerica or other locations.
Where is the "Sea West" in that framework? I'm dying for someone to explain that to me.
Within the Great Lakes region. Wayne May is a good one to learn from.
@@DanaPrice-os9hh So it's the Lake West? Did they not understand the difference between lakes and seas? How did the Hagoth and other settlers sail north to get to the islands of the sea?
Does Sidon not flow northward?
@@davidgallagher4234 have you seen the great lakes? They aren't called great no reason. Hudge bodies of waters
@@davidgallagher4234 I don't have all the answers, but much of this is addressed by others if you want to dig deeper. I don't remember seeing in the BofM which way Sidon flowed. I'd love that reference. Hagoth could have left up the St. Lawrence River, where the Jaredites may have entered. I can understand why massive lakes such as the great lakes would be called seas. After all, haven't you read the Clive Cussler book where they couldn't find the shipwreck lost at sea, but it turns it sunk in one of the great lakes in a huge storm? kidding, but I do think the Heartland theory is fascinating, and it was easy for my to believe because I pretty much understood it that way already from the BofM.
@@DanaPrice-os9hhthe notion that Sidon flowed northward is based on an assumption about what "headwaters" means. There are two definitions.
Is it where the springs are within the high mountains or at the confluence of major branches of the said river system? I vote confluence.
Baja. It’s obvious ;-)
I'm a die hard Heartland Model advocate and I'm also quite conservative.
Matches the BoM.
Me too!!!!
I was born and raised in California!!?
I don't even take it as a literal history. To me it's a parable and I don't even care where it happened or how. If God uses it to speak to me it's scripture. He's used veggie tales to do that before as well as Walt Disney so it doesn't matter to me if spiritual lessons are taught through narratives based on real history or not. If a story is full of iconic imagery and archetypal characters that teach us morals and values that capture the magic of the human spirit, that's all I need. Religion and spirituality are not the same as science. Objectivity and literalism aren't necessarily for my spiritual fufillment.
How Many Distractions Does It Take To Divide~ Sigh We Have Much Bigger Problems 😱ps I Am A Truth Seeker ~ And That Ain’t Easy 😏Get’n Dang Lonely
Both models plus The Nemenhah of Mentinah (Hagoth's people and the miracle of the big fish plus a working government of cooperative and complimentary men and women). Both R for family and life D for the dispossessed plus Whole Food Plant Based Word of Wisdom for human Health towards translation and protecting and honoring the animals I helped to create in the beginning of this whole project. Swedenborg believing Latter Day Saint whose living in the millennium now. We are all related and loved by The God of Love! There is a special place in the heavens for people who love to feel right in their doctrinal approach. God dwells above it. His thinking is whatever floats your boat toward loving God and the neighbor.
As we learned from both Paul and Moroni in CFM today, prophecy will fail and The true Love of Christ will win. We all seem to be a collective Jonah waiting for God to destroy Ninevah. I'm just happy to see the guord grow.❤
‘Surprising?’ Definitely not.
We conservatives like our loosely supported conspiracies ;)
No, conservatives like conspiracy facts!
This line of thinking comes from a incredible lack of intelligence on this subject, and an obvious bias… And I can certainly conclude which side you're on bro😂🎉😂🎉😂🎉