Social Combat in RPGs
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- čas přidán 30. 06. 2024
- overview: what the heck is this? (0:00); the idea of social combat (4:30); social combat in action (9:39); the actual rules as they are written (13:46)
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I have been looking for something like this for years. Shame that the algorithm only showed me this video now
I'm amazed that an RPG so old (which came only 6 years after 1st Edition D&D!) has resolution rules for social conflicts!
Yes, but six years in, the first adopters must have wanted to try new things. Speciation, man!
@@vincentcleaver1925 At that time I thought that rules for social conflicts were something really new, like, from the early 2000s, at most.
Great ideas! The stat 'Wisdom' (d&d) could be used for your verbal combat table as well. Thanks!
usapatriot4163 yes you are totally right! Maybe that would have even been thematically a better choice.
@@GeekGamers01 That's what I was thinking of as well; i like the idea of alignment, or like your disposition/approach, could be added to that base number.
There are rules in 5e with some tables on general checks if indifferent hostile or friendly, but this could be great when coupled with those rules.
The number you make for the DC could be that number in the game that you have to roll above or under. Hmm ysah, quite a few different options :)
Thanks for hints. I'm designing a character interaction system for my game, where I want most problems to have a non-violent solution.
I'm amazed! This is a very clever ideia and a very interesting mechanism. Also I admire your culture and the way you express your ideias also the intelligent way how you mix and create such innovating ways to play! Congratulations for this video :)
Miguel Salgueiro Thanks so much!
Thanks for this vid, the breakdown of character aspects. It's a great starting place for me to add another dimension to my campaign.
This whole page was really helpful in getting my head around solo role playing mechanisms. I want to turn my combat oriented games into story oriented games. Thanks so much.
What a great comment to read thanks!
Thank you for this very helpful video. I have learned me so much about solo RPG!
Never seen this before, fantastic idea and application!!
Great stuff, I'd really like to see how it would play out in a conversation as an example.
I appreciate the use of a crochet hook as a pointer. :)
Really cool idea! Thanks.
One problem with the "Social Combat" is a lack of an emotional investment in the initial character's agenda. In the Physical Combat there are obvious risks and an absence of long-term repercussions. At least I'm unaware about systems with a parasympathetic backlash simulation. This means a character can participate in a physical combat as if in an isolated encounter. Once the encounter is resolved, the character free to move on. While the "Social Combat" should imply that both sides are bound be cultural norms, social practices, personal goals, a shared social graph and a subjective perception of the situation. Yet systems like Intrigues in 'A Song of Ice and Fire' or The Duel of Wits in 'Burning Wheel' use a specific subset of a formal verbal interactions like debates, indirect social manipulations or dramatic dialogue scenes.
The vital missing piece here is a notion that a verbal conflict happens in the heads of both participants. And an ability to get a proper insight about the opponent's thought process gives the advantage during the conversation. For example, in a Medieval or Renaissance setting there are no surface reasons not to stop a Coercion attempt from a female servant with a heavy slap. Yet someone somewhere may use this incident as a leverage against the attacker. And the notion about this future possibility restrains current character's behavior. Or not, if this bears no significant consequences in the mind of the attacker.
This absence of an emotional state during a conversation makes a social mechanic rather shallow. In your example a failed Persuasion check has no impact on "the attacker". Or lady Felinies doesn't doubt her Coercion attempt. It's basically a data query or an attempt to force a character into a desired behavior.
Silencewalker Yes this is true that in my example there is no emotional investment but this is just as you say: an example. I was demonstrating the mechanics only, not the possibilities throughout a campaign or even an encounter or one odd adventure. Were I to use this in a session it would be there from the beginning and have valence with the story and characters. This video was not meant to demonstrate how rich it could be, merely to show the mechanics.
Your example is fine for showing a mechanical side of a completed scene. Sir Charlie Naturewalker arrives [to a place] pursuing [a goal] and asks Lady Felinies about [a topic]. He either will get the information or will leave to a different place. This is more than enough to showcase the concept. But typical combat rules in some systems can expand the similar premise into a blow-by-blow showdown for 30 minutes. And they may do this solely by using concepts from a rulebook. In the 'Burning Wheel' I have 30 combat maneuvers with relations between them to sketch a melee exchange without inventing any narrative details.
That's what I meant by a lack of an emotional investment. An average rules for the Social Combat doesn't handle stress or any emotional responses on a mechanical level. I can make a character anxious in 'Technoir' by applying this state as a Adjective. (In 'Technoir' a character uses one of a predefined verbs to apply an adjective on another character or an object. Dice are rolled against a value of particular verb on the character sheet and modifiers come from the applicable adjectives and adverbs) But I can make a character anxious or happy in many other systems. These emotional states are not a part of a mechanic and have no impact on my character's ability to coax someone. That's the important part.
Imagine that Sir Charlie Naturewalker only starts a persuasion with a roll. And due to the degree of failure gains a Visible Stress. Which is used as a modifier by Lady Felinies to comfort him and lower his Vigilance. And then Lady Felinies builds upon the persuasion to mislead Sir Charlie into doing something for her. And due to lowered Vigilance Sir Charlie is unable to sense this manipulation. And all this is a mechanical exchange rather than a narrative interpretation of a single Persuasion check.
Anyway, my initial comment was about an overall state of rules for a social conflict in games. I'm terribly sorry if that sounded as a criticism of your example.
Silencewalker Thanks for the further thoughts. I didn’t take your comments as negative at all. It’s all quite interesting. Appreciate it!
@@Silencewalker I appreciate Geek Gamers mechanics vid as a solid start, AND I'm really interested in the Technoir system you describe. Stress, lingering effects (like wounds) and costs sounds fascinating. Does Technoir have the most developed social encounter mechanics you've seen? Are there others you'd recommend? I'd love to round out my Pirate campaign with some politics.
Depends on what 'developed' means to you, @@mikec64.
In terms of mechanics I would still recommend Duel of Wits from The Burning Wheel. This is my go-to for putting a dialogue architecture into numbers. As for a good structure or dynamics I don't have an answer. Social Encounter (or Social Combat) inherently lacks structure since there is no immediate goals, high stakes and strict actions. Whether it Faces from Legend of Five Rings, Intrigues from Song of Ice and Fire, Conflict Pools from Cortex+ or Social Conflict from Diaspora, system still fails to articulate the structure for a player to act upon.
I confront a sketchy Baron about disappeared members of a guild. Great, now what? I can't roleplay this for sure. My endgame is about making Barron to confess his crimes. I don't know how and I don't know how the dialogue should go if Baron is truly uninvolved in this mess. Combat rules usually provide answers to all these issues. With social rules it's more like a broad scene resolution, akin to one The Angry GM described in Systematic InterACTION!
That's why I prefer Technoir or Dogs in the Vineyard where my intents at least have flavour of in-game actions and seasoned with emotional context.
really valuable insights, thank you
This is very useful, thank you!
Interesting how people view and categorized things differently. I think I would define Persuasion as "convincing another to do something that they feel okay/agree morally with, while defining Coercion as "convincing another to do something that the do not want to do/morally disagree with.
I've constantly toyed with ideas for social combat, but realized I'd have to invent totally new game mechanisms. I think one reason violent combat is so popular is people like rolling dice and moving pieces about - and I see no reason why that couldn't be made for an RPG. However, such a system would be rather complex in my mind. It would have different "social ACs", different categories of attacks (one good source to draw on for specialized attacks would be logic fallacies), different categories (hp is violent combat, standing could be social status, reputation would be how others in a society view the validity of the characters position, and so on).
In the system I was just doing as a thought experiment, a player could be in a court of a noble having a discussion. They would pick out the type of attacks (slander, mock, kowtow, and so on) and possibly gain a GM granted die bonus for roleplaying the specifics of the game (the same way I let good descriptions of violent combat provide a die roll modifier), then roll a die to get resolution. If they get past the AC, the attacks do their damage to the appropriate hp-equivalent pool and they may suffer counter-attacks. Alternatively, the players could enter a room full of goblins and in goblin-tongue say "Wait - don't attack us yet, we are here to bargain with you!" and then maybe come to a non-violent resolution or you get the whole Han Solo scene from Star Wars ("We're fine here, everything is fine..." shoots the comm panel).
As to social mechanisms, there is also looking at blending the system presented with the old AD&D morale and loyalty systems for monsters and henchmen.
As always, thanks for a great though-provoking video. I always enjoy hearing the novel ideas you come up with. I do more boardgaming than roleplaying, and I often encounter those who think games are balanced to perfection and designers have some skill or ability they don't - while those with a old school roleplaying background often are tinkerers and amateur game designers who like to tailor the experience to be fun for them. I miss the tinkerers when it comes to boardgames (there are some, but they are far fewer per capita), and so your channel is a haven for me.
dillenbeck53531 Thanks for these thoughtful and insightful comments. You make very valid points about what would need to happen to develop a social combat system more robustly. As you note there would need to be a depth of character stats from the outset. I do see why it isn’t done and what the appeal of physical traditional combat is, especially with traditional group play. It’s a shame though because even your brief example shoes the rich possibilities.
I’m glad you are enjoying the content and a tinkerer I am so you can expect more to come. Thanks again for your detailed thoughts on this
@dillenbeck53531 @geekgamers I currently have a boardgame idea brewing where It would make more since for players to use social combat first and physical combat as a fallback. This video and discussion is proving really inspirational. Thanks!
I think one of the challenges with social combat in a boardgame revolves around the outcome. In physical combat the you track Health to determine the success and death is the win condition. That’s not the case in social combat. And if you did simplify it that far, then it may as well be physical combat. This is hard to model in a boardgame where there is no DM. I believe it’s doable and hopefully time will prove us right and it becomes a normal mechanic that appears in games as often as physical combat.
Thanks again for sharing this video.
Thanks for the comment. Yes, you make an extremely valid point about the difficulty in tracking/categorizing success/fail with social combat and in many ways also the effects can have a temporal impact--as in a wound that slowly kills you. Of course those things are rarely tracked in games either, though I can think of the 'bleeding' card in Warhammer Quest card game.
I do love the idea/challenge of making a game where social combat is the go to. It would certainly be unique in the board game world if you could pull it off!
Social combat in D&D 5e is just a D20 roll for the persuasion skill with a few Wisdom stat bonuses ! thanks for this new take on it!
FFG’s Genesys rpg core rules have a chapter on Social Encounters, using their Narrative Dice System (first used in 3rd edition Warhammer rpg, then Star Wars rpg). Genesys has settings for fantasy, steampunk, weird war, modern day, science-fiction, and space opera. The fantasy setting has a Terrinoth world source book. Thought I’d mention it as an alternative.
David Coutts Thank for you pointing that out which I didn’t know. This system has been suggested to me before but I’m not into the fate dice. Maybe I’m being stubborn about something that is incidental. Wouldn’t be the first time.
Ty for the breakdown! Looking for an engaging social combat system and this helped. Although I wonder if what we have is woefully the best well get.
Glad someone is still watching this…
That Dallas rpg could be a lesson
A well timed video. I was just wondering how to resolve social encounters. I am not talking as much about social combat as I am just general relationships with npcs. I wonder if anyone has a table of pc motivations. Also I was thinking about incorporating traits from the sims video game into my npcs (they would be generated randomly).
For an NPC motivation engine, look up a PDF called UNE (Universal NPC Emulator) by Zach Best. I use it in conjunction with the Mythic books, and find it really helpful for generating conversations, though I'm very excited to try the method shown in this video for more important exchanges. Speaking of which, thank you Geek Gamers! These videos are fascinating and thought provoking to no end.
Late to the party, but a couple of thoughts: If you're looking for more literary inspiration for "social combat" you might take a look at detective fiction, particularly the Nero Wolfe stories by Rex stout and old reliable Sherlock Holmes, both of whom go well beyond the scope of "interrogation/investigation" skill checks that many RPGs seem to think cover the genre adequately. Wolfe is a particularly good example of a character who uses coercion (often bordering on actual blackmail) to help get information out of people, and almost all fictional detectives & police use persuasion to collect facts as well. There's certainly room for more than just the minimalist mechanics you see in most RPGs if you want to run a more interesting investigation, whether it be a murder or a less violent mystery. Also, while this may not help much owing to the difficulty of finding a copy, but the Lace & Steel RPG (originally from TAGG, reprinted years later by Pharos, both now defunct) had extensive mechanics for social combat ranging from the commonly seen seduction and persuasion to exchanges of witty repartee and barbed insults to coercive threats. The game had a (very important) stat for self-image, which helped you do most things better when it was positive, and made everything harder when it was negative - and social combat could both boost or harm your own self-image as well as affecting others'. Well worth a look if you can get a hold of the game, but it's rare as hen's teeth at this point. The TAGG version has prettier artwork, FWIW.
Thanks for the mention of that RPG which I’ve never heard of. I will look into it. And I like your Rex Stout thoughts too. He’s one of my favorites but I’ve never thought of that in this context. Not sure how it would port to RPG-land but surely yes lots of social combat in that work.
@@GeekGamers01 Social conflicts ala Wolfe might be adaptable to the Gumshoe system, which is already kind of optimized for detective/investigation stories. And thinking back on it, I rather like the Lace & Steel (which is super obscure, I admit) self-image concept, which feels more "portable" to other games with some tinkering. Having self-image as an extra stat that grants general bonuses or penalties and slides up and down over time with successes and failures (and social/verbal beatings or triumphs) seems like it could be applied to many rule systems. Be kind of like a more fluid substitute for older concepts like "luck points" or GM boons or banes with more transparent relations to in-game activity - and it would help enable non-physical "combat" as well.
Very interesting, ma'am.
Thanks!
Sorry if I missed it but where did you get the Dallas RPG? My favorite show of all-time and I had no clue this existed! My wife is gonna be very surprised
CptRoboto You didn’t miss it; I didn’t say. :)
I found it online but as I’m not sure of the legality of the upload I didn’t mention where.
This is really interesting -- thanks very much for sharing and instructing. An argument could be made to use CON rather than STR, but I could see why STR is the right choice.
Yes, I see that point too. Glad you enjoyed. Thanks for the comment.
I think one of the version of En Garde set in the Vatican (characters are priests in the RC hierarchy in Rome as opposed to aspiring swordsmen in France) involved a form of verbal/debating combat rather than the more typical sword duels featured in the original game.
KillerSalmon Thank you for mentioning this. I’ve never heard of it at all but will look into it.
the funny thing is that as soon as I saw the title of "Social Combat' my mind went to the Dallas RGP instantley
Just shows how well you know your stuff! You must really be The Original Grognard. :)
This was great. Social combat is very underwhelming in modern RPG's.
It's underwhelming in D&D, not in "modern RPGs". Honestly the best thing you can do if you want social-focused campaign is take D&D and... throw it away. And play something else. It's good for slaying monsters, not forging alliances.
Is the 'Alignment 'modifier a 1 to 9 value (I presume so)?
:: Options for the Alignment value ::
If so, a system could be:
Good = 1
Neutral = 2
Evil = 3
Lawful = x 1
Neutral = x 2
Chaotic = x 3
So:
Chaotic evil = 3 x 3 = 9
Chaotic neutral = 2 x 3 = 6
Lawful good = 1 x 1
:: A alternative/simpler alignment system ::
Goods = 1 to 3; Neutrals 4 to 6; and Evils 7 to 9 (with the lawfuls being the lower of each series);
OR … if you think law & chaos are more dominant that good and evil, then:
Lawfuls = 1 to 3; Neutrals 4 to 6; and Chaotics 7 to 9 (with the Goods being the lower of each series)
:: Option for converting the D&D stat ::
If you divide the D&D stat by 2 (and round up) you get a range going from 2 to 9. If you round down instead you get a range going from 1 to 9. Might be easier than using a table.
Goblins Henchman Thanks for this comment. Really useful! I’ve been also wondering: how to assign intelligence values to standard d&d monsters on a relative scale because based on that you could start to map this system and interact socially (or try) with giants or ogres etc. (maybe...)
In AD&D the Monster Manual states:
The ratings correspond roughly to the following character intelligence scores:
0 Non-intelligent or not rateable
1 Animal intelligence
2-4 Semi-intelligent
5-7 Low intelligence
8-10 Average (human) intelligence
11-12 Very intelligent
13-14 Highly intelligent
15-16 Exceptionally intelligent
17-18 Genius
19-20 Supra-genius
21+ Godlike intelligence
So again, if you divide by 2 (and round up) you can scale to the Dallas system.
:: Conversion needed? ::
As an aside, since the Dallas system subtracts the opposing scores, do you need to convert to from a 3 to 18 system to a 1-9 system?
I need to think on this some more. Perhaps the alignment part falls apart … or the maths gets more/too tricky ???
:: Monster STR & CHA ::
For monsters, I think you have a problem of needing STR and CHA scores? I guess you could just assign a value you think is about right.
:: More on alignment ::
This is probably too complicated to implement, but I would have thought the more similar the alignment the more persuasive the person would be. So lawful good PCs are more persuasive to lawful good NPCs etc. So a perfect alignment match = 9 , the worse alignment match = 1
*Edit* - like this maybe:
Perfect spiritual alignment = 3
One step off = 2
Incompatible spiritual alignment = 1
Perfect legal alignment = x 3
One step off = x 2
Incompatible legal alignment = x 1
So a paladin (LG) trying to convince a NPC druid (NN): 2 x 2 = 4
But if the NPC was NG: 3 x 2 = 6
:: Level & HD ::
One more thought, I'd be tempted to add +1 for each PC level and +1 for each monster HD.
A first level PC trying to coerce a 10HD Frost Giant or 12LV NPC is going to be difficult.
Thank you so much for all of these great ideas here and in your earlier comment! I am going to work on this moving forward. I'm not sure about the question you are asking re: Dallas. I'd have to get out some specific examples and fiddle around. This type of conversion/concept is hard for me to figure out.
So what scores would the alignments be? From what I gathered, LG is 1 and CE is about 7.
Psyga315 Ah yes I realize I left that out. I was going with 2 to 8 in this vid so 2, 4, 6, 8
WIS instead of STR - and you should check out Dogs in the Vineyard.
John Lenin Yep should have used WIS somehow for sure and thanks for that pointer. Never heard of that game but the mechanics look really unique.
Constitution instead of Strength for the Nerve conversion?
👍🏼
I like this. But suggest you check out the Doctor Who rpg. I regularly is something similar in other games.
I like the idea of social damage reducing future interactions.
I just want to say thanks for posting.
john locke Thanks for the comment and suggestion. Is the Dr Who RPG the same as the PNP sort of choose your own adventure or something else entirely.
@@GeekGamers01 That would be the The Doctor Who Roleplaying Game, formerly Doctor Who: Adventures in Time And Space is a role-playing game published by UK-based Cubicle 7 Entertainment.
With that game social combat does temporary damage too stats when dealing with that 1 antagonist.
The way I played it once you defeated a person in social combat they had a -1 next time.
Example the bouncer you intimidated in front of his friends let's you in the club instead of giving the player beef.
john locke Interesting. Thanks for mentioning it. I had no knowledge of it. I will investigate.
Parlance is half the fight
Jim Dunnigan, wow! Stepping away from combat board games
D&D has included "social combat" from the beginning. That is part of what made it a "role-playing game" rather than a wargame. The creators were wargamers.
The difference is that when we played D&D we had to add some amount of improv to do the social interaction parts of the game. Since then, newer editions have put in rules by which players can skip actual role-playing and rely on rules to substitute for role-playing. (We are looking hard at you, D&D5e, with skill checks like "persuasion"). Then we get "rules" nonsense like this that takes role-playing out of the game entirely.
The hobby is in a sad state with this kind of nonsense. If I am DM playing an NPC, unless your character uses a spell, you have to convince me through role-playing that you have convinced, or conned, or intimidated, etc., that NPC. As a DM, I have already decided or rolled on the fly whether the NPC is hard-headed, antagonistic, friendly, etc. We don't need dice rolls for the role-playing part of the game. That is the actual role-playing part of the game. It is what differentiates RPGs from other games. The social interaction-by-die roll aspect of D&D5e is one of the worst aspects of D&D5e.
Nice and crunchy....but a good addition to the Solo RPG series.
Gary Ellison Thanks. Yep it requires a bit of legwork as I demonstrate but all that can be part of the fun if you’re so inclined.
Mmm... maybe you could use CON as an equivalent for Attractiveness (to avoid rolling CHA twice for a Persuasion roll). A character with a high CON is generally more robust and healthy looking, than one with a low CON. If your CON is low, you're probably more fragile or prone to disease/health issues.
That's a good suggestion which I wish I had thought to do. Next time!
I've decided to give it a try with one of my characters and a random NPC from D&D's Monster Manual. It plays nicely!
We have Daud, a Human Fighter, who needs to somehow be included into the games of Bel's amphitheater. However, despite his efforts, he was not chosen to fight. His only option is to try and persuade one of the gladiators to let him fight instead.
After looking around, he finds a murmillo, standing all alone near the armory. He decides this is his chance, so he gives it a go at a persuasion attempt.
Persuasion rules are as follows:
Persuasion // Resist
INT INT
+CHA +STR
+CON
Daud: 13 (INT) + 7 (CHA) + 17 (CON) = 37 (AVG 12)
Gladiator: 10 (INT) + 18 (STR) = 28 (AVG 14)
DIFF = (12 - 14) -2
Daud doesn't meet the necessary requirements to persuade the murmillo into letting him fight in his place. Because his dice roll results were a negative 2, he automatically fails. Daud must now find another way to get himself into the game's arena.
I like how trying to use persuasion this way feels more fair than just facing a difficulty class with a d20 roll.
Thredith Undomiel Nice! Looks like it worked out well (for you as a player that is and not your character...) Thanks for posting the example.
Thank you for sharing the info! Your channel has lots of amazing tools, reviews, and tutorials :)
Found some neat stuff for npcs at springhole dot net.
Rob Harris Thanks for that. I looked at the site and indeed it has some great stuff!