Total War Shogun 2: Are Vassals Worthless?
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- čas přidán 16. 06. 2024
- Are Vassals Worthless in Total War Shogun 2? In this video I provide a complete overview and guide on Vassals in Shogun 2 and answer whether you should get them in your campaigns.
0:00-1:04 Intro
1:04-7:09 How to Get Vassals
7:10-15:36 Advantages
15:36-21:50 Disadvantages
21:50-24:00 Vassals & Realm Divide
24:00-25:00 Closing Remarks
Discord: / discord
Twitch: / triplezhacker
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#shogun2 #totalwar - Hry
Your Ally declared a war:
-You are forced to help them
You declared a war:
Your allies: "Imma head out"
True
You aren't actually required to join your ally in war if your ally declared the war, you can decline for minimal or potentially no penalties. If your ally has war declared on them and you are asked to join you are required to join... unless enough turns have passed since you formed the alliance that your diplomatic bonus has hit the minimum amount (I believe that's 20 turns). At that point you can break the alliance by declining to join war with minimal penalty (no honor loss or global diplomatic penalty, just a small penalty to that clan in specific). Just don't declare war on your former ally for another... 10 turns I think, and make sure you break any military access agreements between you at least 10 turns before you go to war with them.
Even more annoyingly, they break alliance with you if you're just in a military alliance with them, so every time someone declares war on you, all your formerly allied factions also get the potential to declare war as well.
@@FShaniUnreliable shamefuru dispray
@@curtiswong7280 In TW games I generally never ask allies to join wars, it's better to keep them as allies defending their area, than take the risk of them refusing (they are more likely to join if you are being attacked and are not the aggressor). You can ask them to join the war later, which might need some gold, and they might join you.
My first time playing Shogun 2, I made a vassel out of almost every province I liberated, trying to be on the right side of history and be everyone's friend. I don't think I've ever experienced such heart wrenching betrayal from an AI besides in Shadow of War.
Lmao
Reminds me of playing some of the paradox series game and realizing that I could do some real scummy things against the AI, but instead being nice thinking my niceness would save me... You best to believe that I now use every trick up my book I know I can do
@@akkoismydaughter3573 That's not funny 😠
Shadow of war betrayal are so funny sometimes too
I remember playing as the Ashikaga Shogunate in a mod years ago and found that my vassals were quite loyal... allies and neutrals were not, as they'd constantly war with my vassals, bringing me into it.
But when all was said and done, literally all of Japan was almost identical to how it looks in 1545, except every faction that I could make my vassal was my vassal, and every extra province outside of their capital was Ashikaga's personal land, the map was hardcore border gore for Ashikaga but interesting.
Turns out, the AI is hardcoded not to turn on the Ashikaga unless certain conditions are met. Conditions that couldn't be met with me controlling them. Too easy that campaign was.
Couple of small points but your first vassal that was very friendly was mainly down to the marriage. Had they not had a daughter to marry it would probably just have been friendly. The other thing is that you said you can get a vassal by conquering their last province, but you also can resurrect a clan that has been wiped out by another clan previously. Very similar in practice, but not sure how it affects their attitude to you.
Yes exactly, the marriage alliance helps add extra to get very friendly, but just through the vassalization of the Saito through diplomacy plus the trade agreement it should keep higher relations. Right clan resurrection, I’ll consider that gaining a vassal by warfare just you revive another clan instead of subjugating the one you are fighting.
@@TripleZHacker
The value of vassals are honor (losing a vassal does not lose honor) and bufferzones. EVERYONE (unless you use mods) WILL betray you when it comes to realm divide. If you stacked enough friendly relationship then not right away, but it is inevitable.
Bufferzones are only then really usefull if it means you do not care about the province (low fertility, no special buildings, no bordergore = no money) and usually if the clan is friendly with a bigger, hostile to you clan on the other side. That can just buy you time to deal with someone else.
Other than that, vassals are not useful. They can be harmful too by dragging you into wars with your allies. (I see you did mention that at the end)
So yeah, farm honor with them and trade agreements but only in shitty provinces that make no money and do not have a special building. Otherwise you are better off taking the provinces yourself.
Reviving dead factions as vassals is good because it usually erases any negative penalties in diplomacy you may have had with them before they were wiped out.
@@AvengerAtIlipa Yes it can be, but I have also revived some this way and it still has the past grievances negative factor, so I'm not sure what the conditions are that guarantee such an outcome. I'll definitely do some further testing on it.
Recently on my Ikkio Ikki run I had surrounded Kyoto and was ready to become Shogun. Although Otomo owned the entirety of Kyushu and Shikoku and parts of mainland Japan. Poised to counter my moves for Shogunate I pushed Otomo out of mainland Japan and liberated ouchi and mori as vassals. The Mori started guerilla fighting across the islands and trading ports gaining and losing 3 provinces on the mainland to then relocating on Kyushu with two provinces before their eventual demise. Through this I was able to gain dominance over all of the trading ports and distract Otomo from invading me while I built up my economy. Now I'm using vassals to convert the north of Japan by holding hubs that touch many provinces of my vassals and converting them with Ikkio temples. That way when I eventually have to conquer my vassals they are already converted and I paid no additional cost to garrison the forts during conversion.
I love how this game is well over a decade old now, and is still being discussed by the fans. It is still to this day my favorite.
Always it’s a great game and there’s still plenty to discuss on it
Before becoming Shogun, creating a vassal is an emergency measure to kick out a superior enemy force. I don't expect, or want, the vassal to survive long - they have a tendency to expand and trigger Realm Divide for you when you least expect it.
After becoming Shogun, every province that I capture, if I am able to resurrect a clan as my vassal I will do so (I typically end a domination campaign with more than 20 vassals and having direct control over only about 30 of the 60 province requirement.
These vassals will always trade with you, giving much greater income (about 1,500koku/vassal/turn) than you would get from taxation of the province; you don't need to invite them into your wars because all the clans that are at war with you will declare war on them anyway; they can deal with any religious / unrest problems in the province for you and it allows your army to move straight out to the next province.
All you have to do is kick-back some of the trade income to keep them sweet through to the end of the game - though they are not subject to the Realm Divide penalty, they still incur the territorial expansion penalty as you take more provinces.
It makes sense that the vassals are more loyal, and more useful after you become Shogun. You now have their respect. Before that, you are just one among many grubby little Daimyos vying to become Shogun - and who would be content being a vassal to them? Not the Tokugawa - that's for sure :)
Vassals do suffer the realm divide penalty. However if you create them after realm divide it takes a turn before it starts building up.
I'm pretty sure vassals will betray you within 2-3 turns after realm divide, even the ones made after. It's still useful, of course, but there's no way you can finish a domination campaign with 20 vassals.
@@AvengerAtIlipa In my Rise of the Samurai campaign, it took like 20 turns for my allies to betray me. By then I was about to win the campaign anyway.
@@AvengerAtIlipa
With the best will in the world, you have no idea what you are talking about. I recently finished a Uesugi domination campaign with 15 vassals. I could have had more, but I wanted to see if the vassals would conquer the island of Kyushu for me to get the remaining provinces I needed for victory.
They did. Matsuda wound up with 5 provinces, Mori with 4 and even the Yamana sent an army to claim Higo province.
Of the 60 provinces required for victory, I held 35 and my 15 vassals held the other 25 between them.
It's not about creating vassals after Realm Divide. It's creating them after you become Shogun. Also, they must not have been an active clan at the time Realm Divide was triggered (ie. already eliminated from the game at the time of Realm Divide).
@@mark140363 What difficulty were you playing on, my guy? With respect, the diplomatic penalties scale with difficulty.
There's no shame in playing on Easy. It's helpful for learning how to play, or if you don't enjoy the challenges presented by the higher difficulties.
I noticed that if you vassalize any "major" house like Oda, Shimazu, Date etc. they are more prone to backstabbing you than lesser houses(the unplayable except Imagawa). Most vassals from lesser houses will even declare war on your enemies even after you become shogun.
i love my small clan homies, they the real ones
Small clans have big integrity.
shimatsu are real ones
Big clans big dreams
I've found if you keep relationship high they'll be so loyal they'll even stick with you through Realm Divide. It's just not clear where the dividing line is, which makes in unintuitive and frustrating. Just like with how in Napoleon and Rome 2 it can be really unclear which particular province needs to be captured last to release a vassal, again unclear unintuitive and frustrating
it's a certain amount of happiness but the problem is that realm divide gets you an increasing penalty to diplomatic relations and I don't think there's a limit so unless you pour a ton of money into it they will betray you eventually
The key is temperament and integrity
Defensive vassals with good integrity usually stay loyal.
Aggressive vassals want to expand and if your proveniences encircled theirs they’ll try and take yours.
Vassals with treacherous integrity can be kept at heel by keeping a stack of ashigaru next to their castle. AI are unlikely to betray unless they think they can take territory from you within about ten turns and even if they do betray small time vassals are usually so weak militarily you can use the stack can immediately bring them to heel like a good overlord.
(Also vassals created post realm divide, or brought to heel afterwards suffer no diplomatic penalties)
@@simonnachreiner8380 they do gain realm divide negative penalty, but it takes a turn to start and it builds up back from 0. So every turn is - 20 penalty i think, stacking.
@@maxmustermann-zx9yq There is a limit, -200 IIRC. It's possible to counteract this but it takes some doing.
Its been an eternity since I played FotS, and even more of an eternity since I played regular vanilla Shogun2, but IIRC, having vassals increases your honor, which increases your population's happiness. Also in FotS at least, your honor penalty for looting maxes out at -3 honor, and if you have beyond max honor, you can loot with impunity. You shouldn't loot places you want to take and hold, but in legendary republic campaigns, it can be useful to send a cheap army to ravage the enemy's backwater territories during realm divide, bringing you a ridiculous amount of gold, forcing enemies to retreat to secure their backlines, and starting rebellions and new clans that won't be allied to you, but might also be enemies of your primary enemy faction.
I accidently discovered that once you expand enough it's better to lay low for a while and just make trade and being as friendly as possible so by the time you become shogun the other daimyo is too hostile with other daimyo to really bother you and any ally you choose would stuck out long enough that that they don't decide to betray you and instead you could betray them if you don't have enough territories to win the campaign lol
Once tried that on my first Very Hard campaign , Oda got like 40 provinces (I was chosokabe I unified both islands) and they were a pain , still won but yeah
@@holyknight4392 That's a very agressive Oda right there. I never play Chosokabe but i would probably conquer all the island and not touch the mainland until i cannot spend all my money.
The vassals situation, for the same reason that "The Dawn of Samurai" campaign is so stressful and I do not like it, is because in a game where you have to conquer everybody else, while your armies are spread and attacking/expanding outwards, having that variable right next to your vulnerable, undefended cities inwards is a disaster. It's just way better to occupy the cities and if you have vassals, to just conquer them or let somebody else do it and save yourself the trouble.
Aw dang I was wondering what the situation was in other games that took place during the Sengoku Jidai. I should look into Nobunaga’s ambition and see what it’s like there too.
Vassals make good buffer zones that can block a hostile clans path to you
@@TripleZHacker Nobunaga's Ambition is way better than Shogun 2
@@Takeda_Katsuyori
Both aren't the same type of games. Total war is more into real time tactics combat while the Ambition series is more into statecraft and diplomacy
@@KaiservonKrieger
He is a higher being, who thinks differently. He finds chicken tastier than beef -- and therefore does not eat beef.
i remember a episode for kings and generals where the IRl clan Tokugawa was being attacked by someone( i forgot who) and directly wrote to his then master the Oda, that "if u dont come to my aid right now, ill switch side!). boi doesn't mince words
Incredibly useful answer to my question and questions I was yet to ask.
Vassals are half the reasons I love Shogun 2.
One problem I have with most TW campaigns is that when you progress the world feels more and more empty. When map ends up being divided into two colors, one for my giant empire and the other for the last remaining AI's empire, I am rarely having fun by that point. There's no more surprises, no dynamics, just a giant meatgrinder on the frontlines. Even before, when realm divide happens - it just feels lonely. Everyone forgets their respective conflicts, and just decides that YOU need to go down. Vassals are the obvious answer to making the late game more fun, and I'll try describing some other reasons why I think so.
You mentioned the use of vassals throughout the game before realm divide, and I wholeheartedly agree, using them as temporary buffers is great. But not using them after realm divide to me is sacrilige. For one, they actually do stay loyal, since the relationship has no reason to deteriorate other than your territorial expansion, but that can be easily countered by a) trade and b) giving them gifts occasionally, since as shogun in the late game you can usually afford it. Not to mention gaining vassals at this point usually means liberating settlements previously conquered by your enemy, so you start off as friendly without past grievances.
One strategic detail you forgot to mention - when you are on a territory with a big enemy army, or several, but you manage to conquer the settlement and liberate/vassalise the owner, the enemy armies don't have the right of passage and they immediately get moved over the border. In certain cases this can save your skin, especially as you gain one unit in the process and a vassal daimyo with several units who you can now help defend the fort, should the previously mentioned enemy declare war on your vassal, which is not a necessary thing to happen. Some territories are huge, so this maneuver can buy you several turns worth of time.
Another thing I'd also like to mention is taking a look at who you vassalise - when the temperament of the clan is "aggressive" or "ambitious", they are a lot more likely to betray, BUT, often that is only because you gave them no other outlet. These clans want to conquer. Declare war on some of their neighbours, and watch them go on a conquering spree. Honestly; watching a vassal walk along the coast of Japan taking one settlement after another in your name is one of the most satisfying experiences of mine with this game.
As for YOUR conquering sprees - taking a settlement for yourself usually means dealing with bad public order and possible riots. If you'd like to continue marching further right after conquering a settlement, you'll probably need to leave some of your units, weakening your army. Vassalising, as you have mentioned, actually does the opposite and strenghtens it! You can march through three or even more weakly defended settlements in a few turns, effectively pushing your rival's borders way back, while gaining several trade routes with the clans you've liberated, without having to worry about betrayal in the foreseeable future! And even if they do decide to betray you in time- still better having the resistance split into three uncoordinated minor armies than having the settlements in the hands of the big rival. The betrayal is also usually fairly forseeable. Either the game straight up tells you (threat of attack), or you simply see your relationship deteriorating. Either way it can be postponed by gifts. Making a vassal can often simply work as "I want this settlement, but not right now, since I need to either continue marching and don't want to deal with public order just yet".
Another reason why I like vassals is my inability to focus on too many provinces at once. I mostly think centralized, with each settlement having a specific purpose, and at a certain point, I just don't feel like tending to the newly gained ones, since they mostly won't even become useful before the game ends. The answer? Once again - vassals! They can keep the unimportant towns, tend to them, use them to raise an army to conquer or defend in my name, and in the process they can give me some of their income and trade with me! What's not to love?
Therefore, my usual go to strategy is building a core empire of strong key settlements with the use of vassals mostly as temporary buffers. Then, when you trigger realm divide and everyone decides to hate you - you can unleash conquering sprees liberating clans along the way that stay loyal and occasionally help you with the war effort. So what if one or two betray you. Often your other vassals solve the issue before you even have chance to put them in their place.
The map however feels alive, you still have politics to worry about, you are STILL unifying Japan as a glorious Shogun to whom everyone bows, you're just not comitting cultural genocide but instead keeping alive the clans you like and respect.
Re-emerging factions to me are one of the main reasons I actually enjoy late game in Shogun 2. The only thing I really miss is AI doing the same, occasionally. The vassal functionality is in the game and two clans start with vassals, but no clan ever makes one again. It's a shame, in my opinion. I believe it would sometimes benefit them strategically aswell, and it could generally keep the game more dynamic throughout.
Should there ever be a mod which lets the AI make vassals, my Shogun 2 experience would be complete.
... also one where you can actually order your vassals around, but that's probably impossible anyway, so it's just wishful thinking.
Anyway, vassals rule, despite their unpredictability, which has actually become endearing to me (if they die, it's a shame, but it's not like it was YOUR settlement, and if they attack you, it's not like they're a major power), and I think not using them robs your playthrough off a lot of fun.
Thank you for filling in the gaps I forgot to mention! Yes, kicking AI armies out of provinces is so rewarding, and definitely once you become Shogun vassals are a viable option. There is a mod for Vassals in Shogun 2 on the steam workshop called "Diplomacy tweaks for Shogun 2 vanilla" it works wonders with them. I used it in my Oda Vassal only campaign that I have a livesteam of. try it out for yourself! Also yeah giving them chances to expand, I should've tested that more, truly great info to remember. Gift-giving indeed, I failed to mention that too LOL definitely is helpful, I find on the harder difficulties though its rarely an option until like you said later. Really well said though thank you for the comment :)
That is exactly how to use vassals :)
@@TripleZHacker Thank you! Yeah, I'm using quite a mod list nowadays myself, but a mod which makes the AI use the vassal option and liberate clans I have yet to find, sadly. Diplomacy tweaks is great but AFAIK this is sadly something it does not do. It's a shame, since Rome and Medieval 2 both had the AI use the "client kingdom" option (but in those games it's conversely infinitely harder for the player to do so). Oh well, maybe some day, or the liberating is simply forever left to us.
I have been told Vassals are "fixed" in latest TW games (WH3, maybe Troy and 3K) where they no longer drag you into wars nearly as often (bc AI will now also consider a faction's patron when choosing whether to attack) and makes them more loyal in general (mostly just bc diplomacy modifiers like vassal/ally/trading no longer dacay over time; you also get to set military targets for your allies/vassals.
on the flipside of this the vassals don't feel like individuals to nearly the same degree in those newer games; if a faction sees no benefit in being your vassal it should absolutely try to break free, and if it is only your vassal because you forced it to be it makes seense they aren't happy to do things like join your wars; it's a hard system to do right. (also you need to play new TW games to get the neww system and those really don't stand up to Shogun 2 gameplay wise)
vassals actually do things in your game? crazy. They just turtle in their one province for eternity in all my Sengoku games. Although, towards the VERY end of my Saga fots campaign, the Chosu came in clutch conquering a few pronvinces towards the end. And I had another vassal who seemed like they would do great things but conquered one province and left me to rot. I've only played a handful or two of campaigns and that's the only one where I can recall vassals doing anything other than staying in their one province.
I have won games on the highest difficulty by utilizing vassals. I will share some highly important information about them that many players don't seem to know about:
1. Any vassal that is created before you become shogun is going to betray you eventually. This is because they will be infected with the "realm divide" debuff once the shogun declares it on you.
2. Once you become a shogun, you have a way to gain vassals that will be eternally loyal to you. That is to say, they will never betray you unless you seriously mess with them. The process is simple: capture a province that belongs to a clan that is no longer alive. When you capture such a province, you will have the option to vassalize a dead clan. Doing so will bring the clan back alive, and they will be eternally loyal to you SO LONG AS YOU ARE CURRENTLY THE SHOGUN. If you do this before you become shogun, then it won't work. The vassals will become infected with the "realm divide" debuff when the shogun declares it. So it is imperative that you only do this after becoming shogun.
3. Vassals' territories count towards your territories for the purposes of the win condition. If you need 40 territories to win, you can win with, say, 20 territories that you own and 20 territories that your vassals own (giving you a total of 40 territories).
4. When you gain a new vassal, or gain a new province through war directly (by taking the province yourself), you will generate a warmongering penalty, which will affect your diplomacy with everyone. But, when one of your vassals gains a new province, you will not generate any war mongering penalties.
5. Using this knowledge, you can create a new vassal (by reviving a dead clan) after becoming shogun, and then babysit that vassal until it generates a full army. Then, you can tag along with that vassal's army as they go out and expand. It takes a little bit of up-front investment (you have to babysit the vassal and help them along as they take in new provinces), but once you get the ball rolling, you will conquer land faster through your vassal. This is because the newly conquered land will have no happiness levels to manage (since the land is conquered by the vassal), which will allow you to go from province to province just conquering without ever stopping to manage happiness levels. Add to this the fact that conquering provinces through your vassals don't give you warmongering penalties, and you have a recipe for very rapid expansion.
6. Vassals who have the "aggressive" personality trait seem to be more likely to go out and conquer land for you.
7. Vassals can generate a lot more income from provinces than you can. You cannot support a full army from just one province, but a vassal can use that shitty province and generate a full army from it because it has the AI income benefits.
Once you become good at doing this, you can have two or three vassals that conquer land for you, and you just tag along to reinforce them as they take city after city in your name. Sometimes, you don't even have to do anything. They just conquer land for you as you sit back. And then you win, because their land counts towards your win condition.
Not worthy. Time and economy wise. To keep vassal loyal to you after realm divide, you would have pay a certain amount of money every few turns. The larger your vassal is, the more you would need to pay them to maintain them. Since all vassals technically started with 1 province, and they hardly can expand toward neighbouring province. Usually you would wait for over 10 turns for them to start expanding, meanwhile they will be only giving you atmost 1 province income and you need to pay them money in the long run or else they will turn on you. All these costs will add up in the long run. You can easily take over that province with 1 general and 5 or 6 yari ashigaru, the total cost for this take over is less than 2k koku.
Why waste more than 2k koku and building up your future enemy.
This is not how you should use vassal. Wrong and inefficient.
I can conquer whole map in legendary difficulty campagin in around 60 to 80 turns. I can even provide you the save file if you doubt my words.
@@RG-hx8uc They also trade with you, and trading is far more profitable than keeping a city.
Thank you for the tip, I noticed some of my vassals hated me and other loved, and it is in fact, the vassals I made after I became shogun that loved me, and the ones I made before are the ones who hate me
@@RG-hx8ucunder 60 or 80 turns on legendary? How?
@@John_winston there are few rules to save time.
1. Yari ashigaru spam until mid game(probably turn 20 or 30). By then u would have 2 or 3 partially full armies.
2. Dont focus on naval until late game. Always plan your expansion. Fully conquer 1 side( left or right) while maintaining choke point on the other side. So you only require 3 armies in total. 1 choke point(partially full, save cost and can recruite more once u see more than 1 stack incoming armies) and 2 armies for expansion purpose. This is to save amount of army stack you need to maintain at 1 point. Dont fight wars at multiple sides, you wont have enough army to defend, if so, pay enemy for peace while expanding else where and come back later.
3. Focus on general rank, always split generals into seperate armies to max exp gain. Atleast 4 stars general and always get infrantry leader traits(stand and fight skill).
4. Diplomacy matters before realm divide, your clan reputation matters. Dont break peace treaty. Watch out for signs of enemy by constantly checking diplomacy. So that you can preemptively deploy your army for defend. Know when to stop expanding. If a province is expose to multiple sides, think carefully before u take it, if it takes more effort to hold it. Then u take it and expand further so that that vulnerable province is not accessible to enemies.
I could have wrote more but feel like im reaching comment word limit.
Here are my google drive(bragging) save files.
drive.google.com/drive/folders/1yfVkrX9CZZJOtcZKdgJWk_JRVe03R3su
Vassalization is great for honor boosts. As Mori clan, looting and vassalizing border regions is a great way to guarantee income and honor to your Daimyo.
ah yes the aztec way
They're more helpful in Rise of the Samurai; you can even win the game in short campaign without losing all your vassals and ally's post realm divide if you're quick enough and play your cards right.
You can also vassalize clans who have died by taking their home city from whoever killed them. It gives you the option to allow the clan to return.
I now play pretty much exclusively the complete immersion mod (I would highly recommend trying it to any fan of the game, the yari samurai in this version have yari wall, think about that), and vassals are absolutely amazing in that version. The mod makes a lot of significant changes to the way the realm divide works. The only reason not to just keep conquering with that mod is that you get a lot of territorial expansion diplomatic penalty with each clan in the game for each province you capture (you also get the penalty when you take the province and make a new vassal). The proper realm divide does not happen until you have conquered A LOT of Japan yourself, over half, but other clans WILL get huge (like 10 stacks huge) by turn 100 and they will all declare war on you if they are hostile to you. But, vassals conquering provinces for you counts toward your victory condition, does not give you territorial expansion penalty, and they make you money both by tribute and trade and have their own armies.
With a bit of a bribe, any vassal can be made to declare war on any enemy of yours, and they WILL go fight them if they are not already busy and can get there. Having like 5 strong vassal fleets to command is nice as well, especially since in this version of the game a clan has a limit on how many boats you can have built at one time. And when you make peace with an enemy clan, all of your vassals automatically make peace with them as well. Cultivating a strong vassal is sort of an art form I have been working on mastering. When they are little, you want to let them use your armies to conquer castles by leaving your armies in range of the castle so you can help them take it as an ally in battle. Giving them money seems to help as well, although as I understand it once an AI clan has a certain amount of money the game just creates a cap somewhere, so I wouldn't give them more than 25,000-50,000 koku or so if you had that much lying around. There is always the threat of betrayal from a vassal that either needs to conquer and has no other option (as the video explains) or they may also betray you if they have more provinces than you do or more armies.
I just finished a campaign in this version on legendary as the Oda (the best and easiest clan to play IMO) where I needed 100 provinces total in my control and to be shogun to win. There are about 170 provinces total in this version. I only controlled 30 provinces myself, but I had 6 strong vassals (the Saito among them since turn 1) each with about 6-15 provinces and many other smaller vassals, many of which had only 1 province and included all the single province island clans. I won on turn 171 and the fame/realm divide bar is maybe at only 60%. Just conquering Kyoto before they issue the hard realm divide in this version leaves things in the standard diplomacy mode even after you win. Post victory, I can still pay off my enemies in that game with moderate bribes to make peace. I was betrayed by one vassal in this game, the Osaki from Miyagi province, and they ARE aggressive and it was when they had no other way of conquering. Adds up.
Vassals make you good money indeed when you have 71 provinces of them. Here is my income in the Oda game after the victory with minimal taxes:
Tax Income: 35099
Trade Income: 22703
Other: 24092 (all but 1200 of this is from vassals)
I am a vassal fan, you could say.
I use vassals in Shogun 2 for two purposes. 1) To create a temporary buffer zone between myself and my enemies. Frequently, enemies will not declare war on a vassal state despite the fact that its actually your vassal. So , it buys you some time and allows you to concentrate your attention elsewhere. Typically I find I am fighting on more than one front by the mid-game often trying to push forward along the northern and southern coast or trying to clear the island whilst holding off enemies on the mainland. Creating a buffer zone of vassals can actually relieve the pressure for a while. 2) To maintain my income. Once the Realm Divide has occurred the biggest risk is to simply go bankrupt and creating vassals is a cheap solution to taking out enemy territory whilst at the same time creating a new trading partner that will provide you with income. I tend to take the view that unless I really need a territory and its resources then its best to opt to make it vassal if the choice is available.
I know this is late but vasaals also give up to 3 honor if you recruit 3 of them. Then you win a couple of heroic victories with the daimyo then you can loot settlements with impunity. The pentaly for honor only goes to -3 so that how I usualy deal with the endgame money problems.
I usually have vassal after Realms Divide. Cause when you have vassal before the Shogun considered you as Country's enemy, the moment you become one, there a high chances they'll backstab you.
Also, from my experience, vassal territory is also affecting your clan fame. I once got realms divide as Shimazu after my Vassal(Mori) basically seize the Chūgoku region and almost half of Kansai region(they basically infront of Shogun's gate), While i'm just done doing my conquest of Shikoku, when the realms divide hit me, guess what happened? They join the Shogun's Side. Making me, to face them first before going to Kyoto. After that, i never again took a Vassal before the realms divide hit me.
Yep provinces owned by Vassals cost 4 fame each, and definitely pre realm divide is tough, depends on the situation and how long you plan to keep them around.
@@TripleZHacker as long as they can be useful to me, and i use them mostly as a buffer zone to decrease the fronts.
@@rizalalbar Yeah exactly, best way to use them!
I've noticed that vassals with the 'Dependable' diplomatic trait are much better than others, almost never betraying you, whereas 'Treacherous' - like the Hattori, will do so at the very first opportunity. Additionally, I'm not positive, but I believe that if vassals conquer land, it doesn't count towards your realm divide, so if you have a vassal who wants to conquer (i.e. they don't have the 'Defensive' trait), you could theoretically use them to expand by proxy. I'm not positive, but I think that the game determines what units to give you from forced vassalage based on what buildings the vassal has constructed - if they have a yari dojo, Oda gets their long yari for example. I haven't played in a minute, but it was either AI clans with 'Peaceful' or 'Defensive' that I thought were basically useless, because they wouldn't generate an army to defend themselves, and hence get attacked constantly by neighboring clans.
Personally, I use them as the video above suggests at vital chokepoints, but also for that honor. Since honor confers +1 public order per level above 4, it can be quite nice in offsetting public order problems especially at higher difficulties.
There's Some mods that make vassals a bit more useful. I know it's taboo to mention mods as a fix but creative assembly never fixes anything anyway
Yeah there are some I think I used one and it was a nice change! Mods help make the game replayable and the modding community puts a lot of work into their projects so it’s great to use some every once in a while~
You forgot that you can also gain a vassal through clan resurrection by taking a territory another clan has already conquered that is the home province of a formerly destroyed clan. You get the option to resurrect the formerly destroyed clan which gives you the "Past Grievances" diplo debuff (for some reason, even if you were never at war with that clan earlier in the game, which sucks) but I think it might be lower or the resurrection bonus for bringing the clan back is higher, as they usually start out more neutral, rather than hostile in this method.
This is actually really potentially beneficial in my opinion because I've won a few campaigns by using mid-late game resurrection vassals as you said, as buffer states, but I do it post-Realm Divide to remove the maluses so they last a lot longer.
Basically, the best long term strategy I've found for any Shogun 2 campaign is to naturally try and focus on shoring up one side of Japan first. It's harder to do with the central clans like Oda or Tokugawa, who usually need to blitz for the center instead, but most of the clans in the game should focus on either the north toward Hokkaido or the South toward Kyushu. Once that side is more fully shored up and you don't have a rear which can be be easily snuck up on, you move toward the center of Japan in the mid-game, to establish a foothold territory there, near Kyoto and before Realm divide hits.
By this point, usually one clan or another has gobbled up central Japan, and another clan has gobbled up most of the other side of Japan that you aren't on. I often end up making an early military alliance on "my" side of Japan too in order to free up pressure while I build up my "rear" territory. Once near realm divide due to fame accumulation, I often let some time pass to build up forces for a final push, but also to create the proper political situation for the end game.
Which means forming a military alliance with larger clan on the opposite side of Japan against whomever has gobbled up the center of Japan near Kyoto (which in my last game as the Chosokabe was an alliance the Takeda on the opposite side against the central Hattori, but I've had Oda and other minor clans be this central power before in other games, and in a Date game I've had my opposite end ally be the Mori or whoever, etc etc) and possibly with my "neighbor" clan on my side of Japan. I then punch through the center of Japan fighting this clan and almost certainly hit enough fame to trigger realm divide in the process.
Only after realm divide triggers do I start to use resurrection to create vassals. And honestly usually I wait until taking Kyoto and becoming Shogun too, unless I leave that for the last major battle of the campaign. Because, as you said, if you create vassals through force after Realm Divide triggers, it will not affect the vassals because they didn't exist when the event triggered. However, Realm Divide *can* trigger twice in a game - once when hitting enough fame, and another time when taking Kyoto, so you're definitely more secure if you only make vassals after both triggers have fired.
More importantly though, is vassal placement at this point. As I create a vassal wall against my usually still military ally on the opposite side of Japan so I can focus on consolidating central Japan (and often the rest of my side of Japan if I kept a neighbor clan alive as an ally for most of the game) in the turns before the opposite side power clan will inevitably betray me. By a vassal wall, I mean several vassal clans all next to each other, but between my territories and the opposite side power of Japan. Aside from giving me new trade partners, the relations between the allied but soon to be enemy clan on the opposite side of Japan will be good with the vassals in the vassal wall, so it will take some time for them to declare war on them due to diplomacy buffs built up between them, even as it goes negative against my own. Secondly, the vassal wall, as opposed to just one isolated vassal in a strategic chokepoint, creates a force multiplier against the opposite side ally-to-become-enemy when it does become time to declare war against them. Because the vassals, all being under your clan, can all pass through each other's territory, and the ones furthest from the opposite side enemy clan will move toward them rather safely, usually catching up with the vassals bordering the opposite side power and joining in allied battles against them basically by accident.
Using this vassal wall method toward the end game, I've been able to successfully get vassals to behave quite a bit more sensibly and even had them sort of coordinate attacks and take territory from the opposite side major power multiple times. In my last Chosokabe campaign, I finished off the Hattori in the center while resurrecting the Saito, Oda, and Tokugawa clans against a dominant northern Takeda clan. While finishing up my neighbor ally the Mori (strategically bribing the Mori to break their alliance with the Takeda on the turn I declared war on them so the Takeda wouldn't get a diplo penalty for me declaring war on the Mori) the Takeda eventually declared on me, and with no other potential enemies in either the center or on my southern side of Japan, all my vassals could really only go in the same direction against the Takeda - North. Because they were all headed in the same direction, they actually defeated several Takeda armies and took territories. And because they took Takeda territories they actually pushed me over the territory limit needed to win, with me only having to fight a rather small number of battles against the Takeda at all.
I've done this a few times now, and frankly, I think it's the overall strategy to win the campaign on any difficulty, and with 75% of the clans in the game. Like I said, it's not really feasible for the Oda, Hattori, or Tokugawa, since they're all so central that it makes more sense to claim the center first than head to one side (though you *can* do that I suppose) but it's worked every time I've done it, mostly due to the fact that it's the only real way to coordinate the AI to fight on your behalf in something resembling a sensible strategy.
Another reason to vassalise your enemy is to keep a province under control if you can't maintain a garrison over there. I don't do this often, but when I started in the province of Ise (used a mod that allows you to play as any clan) all bordering AI declared war on me. If the bordering AI was defeated by another AI, then the new AI would also declare on me. So I had 1 province, that is somewhat descent in wealth, but had multiple fronts. Taking the province left of me would result in -8 unrest if I'd repair it, don't tax it and leave with my army (so guaranteed rebellion). Releasing it as vassal would keep it under control for me, give the other benefits listed in the video and it allowed my army to march to the other flank.
Yes, you are the only one with the right and clever usage of vassal. Only turn them into vassal when you need to expand fast and not willing to stop your main army conquest just for that provinces. Have the main army continue expansion while you building your 2nd army and moving toward vassal for total take over. They would have rebel anyway within 5 or 6 turns without paying them, by that time, your newly built 2nd army would have done and otw to finish them off. Vassal is to buy time not for profit.
Great video, TZH! Vassals are perhaps my biggest pet peeve in any TW, as they are so disloyal and have basically no incentive/restrictions to make them remain a vassal.
Thank you and yeah I definitely think this is an issue that pervades throughout all total war titles
@@TripleZHacker I feel like the system in Rome 2 (specifically for a satrapy and not a client state) is very reliable since in my experience, the satrapy follows you into or out of war as long as their loyalty stays friendly or very friendly (or if they like you more than the target). This friendliness is easy to obtain since there are plenty of actions (especially executing enemy captives) you can do to make them friendly and overcome even the highest expansion penalties (they also don't add to your expansionist penalty while counting as your land). If you want peace, then the satrapy will make peace too if your negotiation is successful. On top of that, they can be told which place/force to attack with the diplomacy menu. They really do give off the feel of a faction under your boot.
All good info I can confirm just about all of it. If you don't mind I'd like to talk about some of the practical uses for vassals for anyone interested in reading.
Using vassals as buffer states is mostly useful after realm divide. Earlier in the game vassals are more likely to drag you into wars with all their neighbors who usually have no problem stomping through their land, so they only are a buffer in terms of how long it takes an enemy clan to march through their territory to reach you.
Be very careful allying with clans that border your vassal/s. If your ally declares war on your vassal you will be the one to bear the diplomatic and honor penalties. The AI loves to target vassals.
One of the best uses for vassals post realm divide is to create "pocket vassals" that are captive trade partners. Since you quickly lose all trade deals once realm divide hits vassals created after realm divide are your only realistic trade partners. If you have control of the foreign trade nodes creating a pocket vassal (a vassal trapped within your territory with no other neighbors) may be profitable enough to be worth the trouble. I suggest keeping agents nearby (at the very least a ninja to sabotage the army) in case they rebel. The ninja could even sabotage/assassinate to keep their growth in check and discourage rebellion, though depending on the circumstances it may not be worth the cost.
Pocket vassals can also be useful for training agents and even armies and generals. You can repeatedly incite rebellions, bribe or attack and kill the rebels as a grindable source of experience (and if the vassal gets too strong sabotage their army and let the rebels win, then take the province and make the clan your vassal again). Downside ofc is that you have to keep an army and agents in place but if you can afford to it's an incredible way to grind experience, gain extra generals, etc. If you're going to do use a vassal for this purpose it's best to do so before Realm divide.
Two notes on diplomacy with allies (not vassals, but can sometimes be related): Alliance relations degrade over time. Once it fully degrades you are allowed to break that alliance with minimal penalty (only a small penalty with the clan you broke with, but no honor or global diplomatic penalty. I believe it takes 20 turns but you can check in the diplomatic interface. If the diplomatic bonus for alliance is no longer going down but at it's minimum (off the top of my head the minimum is 40) you are free to break your alliance at any time. You still have to wait before going to war with that clan or you will suffer penalties (10 turns iirc, also affected by military access agreements so be sure to break them 10 turns before you go to war)
You can circumvent penalties for declaring war on a clan if you join an ally's war through the diplomacy window. Go to your allied clan and request to join their war, this allows you to break peace treaties, ignore penalties for military access deals, and as a bonus it only declares war on the specific clans without involving their allies or vassals (though their allies/vassals may chose to join the war against you later but they will have to declare war on you to do so). Very useful trick I've never seen an ally refuse your request to join their war and you can sometimes request money for it too. Keep in mind though if you don't actually wage war on that clan within a certain amount of time you will get a small diplomatic penalty with your ally for being an unreliable ally. Regardless it can sometimes be worthwhile to join your allies war, then quickly make peace with the clan you just waged war on to force that clan to accept various diplomatic deals (including making them a vassal). The diplomatic penalty with your ally is minor and it can sometimes completely change the balance of powers in a region.
Theoretically it is possible to trade across land with a clan separated from you by a vassal or ally. If both you and the target clan has military access to the clan in-between you can form a land route. It's easy for you to gain access (automatically if it's a vassal). Unfortunately you have no control nor any way to check if the AI clans form military access deals. Nonetheless I can confirm AI clans will sometimes make such deals (even two clans that have never been in an alliance) as I've been surprise attacked on multiple occasions by a clan marching through a neutral territory to attack me. Unfortunately I have no idea what triggers ai clans to make such deals so this situation is extremely rare to replicate.
13:02 you can also demand payments from vassals as well while getting a trade agreement for some extra cash.
In Shogun 2, the AI has basically no upkeep requirements for their armies. The poorest, single province clan, can sustain a full army of Yari and Samurai combined, with an economy that would barely support you, the player, having an army of Yari and Yumi ashigaru, let alone having the budget to build any advanced type of buildings or castles.
In that aspect, having 5 single province clans, can be a bigger military asset, than having those 5 provinces yourself.
I also noticed over the years, that if you face the AI with, say, 7 provinces, and you beat their field army (they usually only field one really big army with most of the family members in it too), you get a lot of time before they regroup and rebuild a new army. So you basically have to win one really big fight, and then mop up the survivors, before you can go on a conquering spree, in which only the public disorder will be a challenge.
When you fight an alliance of 5 minor clans, you're going to have to beat 5 field armies, or really well garrisoned castles.
Shogun 2 is funny like that.
Nice video, I was just wondering what vassals are for in this game.
I've never take vassals because they always byte my ass, but now I understand better.
Glad to help! Yeah honestly the best time to get vassals is later in the campaign, but early on they can be situationally beneficial especially if you’re fighting on multiple fronts!
Vassals are great to boost Daimyō honour. I think having a single 1 province vassal in the early to mid game is amazing for that. Especially in FoTS, where modernisation is such a core mechanic, and honour impacts hapiness.
The best way I've found to use vassals is after the realm divide as a buffer state. I do a similar thing with rebel factions when I have some honor to burn by looting a settlement and then letting the rebellion take the province. It's really effective too because I've never seen them expand their territory so there's no chance of them trying to take yours.
The way I see it these are the 2 methods of making buffer states with all their costs and benefits:
Vassal
+Honor
-Weak forces at first so not useful in a pinch
~Gets stronger over time (this can be a good thing or bad thing since they have the chance to betray you)
-No immediate money payoff
+Money over time
+Free Unit
Loot + Rebel Occupation
-Honor
+Strong forces at first so useful in a pinch
~Gets weaker over time so they won't last forever (again this can be a good thing or a bad thing since it lets you retake the settlement easier yourself)
+Big money payoff depending on the wealth of the province
-No money over time
-No free unit
there is another way to get a diplomatic vassal, if you conquer a clan captital that is under the control of a different clan ( example, take iga from ikko ikki ), you can vassalize the defeated clan.
while at it, there is a niche trick you can do with that type of vassal. if you spawn a rebellion on that clan capital with a monk, and then vassalize it, that rebel army becomes part of the vassal army ( essentially, giving him a free complete army ). this can be quite useful post realm divide, if you want to create a buffer vassal to distract some rival clans.
Ah that’s quite a neat trick I’ll have to try that sometime thanks for the info! Yeah the first option I forgot, I would still consider that vassalization by force because you are using to attain them but yeah resurrecting a clan is nice.
I once made a vassal just west of osaka to act as a buffer state after a long war. Coming from the west, this position gave me a good defensive position when I didn't have much funds to hire more units to defend it. Thinking the vassal will raise the troops.
I end turn and everyone and their mother declares war on them. People I had been very friendly with.
After a couple stunning victories in their defence I watch their army not once, not twice, but 3 times march out of their castle, into enemy land, and get immediately stack wiped.
After the third time I just sat back and watched them get seiged down
great video thank you a lot
Thank you for watching!
just discover recently as i return back to shogun 2, in Fall of samurai campaign, as you make vassal of a faction they join in your alliance as well (not tested as republic yet)
Dosan did well by me when I made him vassal. I parked a small army in Mino to help at first, then he just went ham north I secured around Kyoto. Once realm divide occurred he took out my biggest foe in the Hojo, I was well established with armies in his provinces before He finally betrayed me at that point Dosan and Nobunaga had died; so I had no problems crushing them mightily.
Vassal is useful after RD, AND capturing Kyoto. Diplomatic penalty due to the RD occurs 1)RD trigger 2)Capturing Kyoto trigger. If you captured Kyoto before RD, that is also considered as RD. and after then Vassals will not suffer diplomatic penalties. Since you cannot have enough koku for developing every provinces nor not worth at all, some provinces it is very helpful to vassalize and get trade, military access, and little cash for making them join war for me! (If you have some sons that is even better so hostage gives extra money as well as diplomatic huge plus!)
For me they serve as lightning rods for neighbours and choke point for the advancing enemy that serves for only 5-10 turns before either they declare independence or get annihilated
I’d really like getting a way of controlling vassals and making them a companion. Like multiplayer coop without needing to feed them 1k per turn after realm divide
If you're playing an extremely aggressive game and looting after conquests (up to -3 honour penalty), vassals are great for balancing out your honour (+3 honour bonus).
Exactly, because you can have up to 9 total honor, so 3 in reserve. Leads to some fun looting!
In my experience Vassals are good in choke points to buffer against hostile neighbors you are at war with and to slow the "Realm divided" event
The best vassalage experience is in Rise of the Samurai campaign. After winning the campaign, release clans and vassalize. Then; eternal warfare and unlimited vassalazition. Those army & navy exp need to go up
Hey triplezhacker just wanted to ask a question:
Are overhaul mods like master of strategy and ultimate immersive mod for shogun 2 multiplayer campaign compatible? Been having trouble starting multiplayer campaign with these mods.
If they aren't, are there any overhaul mods like those that are multiplayer campaign compatible.
Yes they should be. But check the mod page because they should say whether they are or not. You just need to make sure that you and the person you play with have the mods. Additionally you need to select the same mods in order. So as an example-
You select:
Mods: 1-2-4-5-6 (on your list of mods when you first load the game)
The person who is playing with you must select in that same order of the mods on the list. 1-2-4-5-6.
Even if you have the same mods all selected if they are out of order then it won’t work.
Additionally you need to make sure mods are comparable with one another if they are not the game will crash.
Hope that helps :)
Vassals can remain loyal during realm divide...
BUT the relationship is rapidly detoriating.... So sooner or later they'll betray you.
he literally said it in the video
Impressive. Very nice.
Thanks!!
I tried and seek Kyoto before Realm divid couple times and became shogun before real divide. (Could only do it in hard mode, failed every time doing it in legendary) But real divid as a negative diplomatic factor still kicks in and remains for some reason.
Something interesting I found out after awhile is that after the Realm Divide event, if your alliances and vassalages are strengthened by the bond of political marriage, it would take the AI a much longer amount of time before they would ever consider betraying you.
A few buffer state vassals if you want to stop expanding and build up your economy or your forward production center.
I played both the Total War franchise & Europa Universalis 4. While I love the idea of role-playing with subjects, and I constantly do that in Eu4, the system in TW was never quite what I desired. At least in say Rome 2 a subject state allowed for the recruitment of unique units you otherwise wouldn't have.
In 1212 Attila I always make new vassals so I can take like three elite units every turn, and effectively increase my total army sizes by one-third of my countries maximum each time, with buffer states and tributes. If their culture and leader are compatible they almost never rebelled. This is with mods though so yeah.
So what happens when you conquer a larger faction, but get the option to vassalize a certain province where a major clan was? Does that clean they gets resurrected have the hostile debuff?
Vassals are a great way to avoid dealing with navies. Also they seem to work better on short campaigns because you dont have realm divide as long
I learned after my 1st horrible realm divide exp that yoh make vassals after realm divide to avoid total betrayal
I only set up vassals to A, create buffer states. And B, save the manpower required to garrison and occupy newly taken provinces. This turned out to be a mistake. Because even friendly factions would attack them anyway.
When you become Shogun: that is military reader of all Japan.
The way I see it in Shogun 2 at least.
Vassals are very helpful, but can be tricky to maintain. And you have to keep on being above their power to have them not declare war on you.
However, the realm divided will always force all your vassals to go to war against you. So they are still useful, but as said can be tricky to keep under control.
Regarding Daimyo Honour and effect on diplomatic relation, this mechanic is slightly broken. It should be that for every point of honour above 3, (to a maximum of 6), you gain +10 to the relationship; and for every point below 3 you get a -10 penalty.
So, if your Daimyo has honour 7 (+30) and the other clan's Daimyo has 1 (-20), the net value applied to the relationship should be +10.
The problem is this doesn't update as Honour is gained or lost. It only updates when one or other of the Daimyos dies and is replaced.
Ah how fascinating, yeah I knew it was +10 diplomatic relations, I think I forgot to mention the number but hmmm yeah I assumed it would go with the number of vassals but that’s a unique little thing to exploit in campaigns now!
I dont know, even if they will betray me I still make vassals. Especially vassalazing imperialist Edo with Aizu and becoming the shogun vanguard felt nice. Since both clans will have a similiar banner it felt as if it was my child :)
Heck yeah, FOTS’ vanguard system definitely makes it easier and yeah I usually keep making vassals even if they betray me in some of my campaigns
What about vassalization through the reviving of a dead clan? E.g., when you are at war with a clan that killed another, and retake the home province of the destroyed clan and vassalize it to recreate the clan?
Yes, I failed to mention it, but it is essentially the same method as vassalization by force, or through war, it's the same process just with a slight variation on the outcome.
Vassals can be useful but have to be careful. First thing is you gotta know the clan's temperament, An aggressive takeda behaves very differently from a passive Ogigayatsu. Once realm divided occurs, all the vassals gradually gain negative opinion and might eventually betray you unless you can wrangle them with marriage etc. I sometimes vassalize clans like Takeda as Uesugi once I have pushed them to just South Shinano and basically use them as a guard dog that mess around in the center while my forces consolidate northern japan.
This made me redownload Shogun 2 where I came across the startling realization I have nearly 9000 hours on it. Which I think is insane.
My one experience with vassals, I had established three in western japan then moved on the capital and they immediately betrayed me. So I sacked there cities.
I only read the video title - YES!!
somehow it's pretty historical accurate though, most of minor clans or Kokujin always have their own opinions since they stand for their own, it's common that betrayal and rebellion happen all the time in Sengoku Jidai, or it's one of the reason why it's a period in war
Well, i found out that if you "liberated" a clan they Will be much more loyal even the major clan. Let's say the Mori had been annexed by neighboring clan, and i captured Aki (town for mori) and set up Mori as Vassal, but if you fight mori, take Aki and set up Vassal, they Will show hostility
A couple heroic victories and vassals in the first 10 moves sets me up for 6+ honor for the entire game. That is my use for them.
This video has a different meaning after The Shogunate’s event 😂
Vassals are a great way to have your own allies declare war on you. Every time I make a tiny vassal, one of my allies gets greedy and decides to onvade them, causing the "your ally has declared war on your ally" prompt. If you decline to join war, your vassal gets crushed but you lose face. If you defend your vassal, then you have free reign to go take your ex-ally's land with a just Casus Belli.
If i have too many troops in another spot and i dont want to extend my armies or wallet to keep a newly conquered town, you best to believe that vassal help my administration, but yeah even then they can be annoying at times, but still better than outright taking every province and having to leave a small force just to avoid a rebellion
As the old saying goes, "Bring your enemies close, but your allies closer... towards your tanto dagger." 😆🗡
Total war shogun 2の続編が出ると言う話は聞いたことがありますか？
それとも、もう続編は出ないのでしょうか？
現在のところ、将軍2の続編があるという兆候はありません。私は彼らが中国の戦国時代の三国志に関連するより多くのゲームを作っていることを思い出します。申し訳ありませんが、私は日本語を知らないが、私の応答を翻訳しようとしました。
Damn the video quality is amazing... Shows how this 11+ year old game never dies. CA should remaster it if they know what's best for 'em
Thank you and yeah Shogun 2 is so beautiful, tbh idk if a remaster is necessary for a bit, but there are some mods that update graphics with it!
@@TripleZHacker sure yeah but mods can only take ya so far especially if you're an online player which I am. Remaster not only improves the graphics but tweak the game balance a little where needed like some OP units and mechanics being toned down as well as the revival of the game's playerbase
Vassals are mainly good to abuse the A.I. If a faction you're at war with is about to die then you can just vassalize them, they die, and then you get a free point of honor. Making a vassal next to an ally that you want to betray but don't want to take the diplomatic standing hit can also sometimes cause your ally to declare war on them, allowing you to come to your vassal's defense.
I do miss older Total War games where vassals weren't suicidal perfidious dicks, though.
After all the improvements in diplomacy from 3 kingdoms I am sure the next total war shogun, empire, or medieval will be massive steps up from their previous iterations when it comes to alliances, vassals and so on
youve seen the recent releases?
Giving your vassals lots of money seems to help because it makes them friendly and helps them build up. Vassals also increase honour less than taking a province yourself
Difficulties affect vassals income as well anyways meaning they can have the shittest of land and have one province and still be able to have one full stack army without needing money from the player. You're better off using the money to make an army to support your vassal in its campaigns since they wreck house once they start having a couple of provinces
I remember the first time I played as Shimazu, I Vassalized the original enemy at the start and they sucked me into four wars, became larger than my clan, and then declared war on me.
D: nightmare scenario
theres a clan near shimazu that is always defensive and high integ which remains loyal even after realm divide
Vassals are sometimes useless. Especially depending on said clan.
Playing as Oda of Owari alot, my goals are to maintain a strong positon around Owari and taking the neighboring provinces and attacking north and east.
Then stalemating with Hojo and Takeda. Thats because I wanna conquer the north and go along the coast and conquer the islands and trade nodes. Before attacking and surrounding Kyoto because the Shogunate they never move their armies from Kyoto hence free experience leveling from their army when you battle them.
But also Takeda and Hojo can defend the Eastern Flank. I'll always position my most veteran troops bordering the Takeda and Hojo incase of Betrayal and the Maxium meter of me being the enemy of all.
Total war has always been lacking in some aspects but mostly in diplomancy and the lack of having your vassals or allies to do anything.
And playing as Oda its easy to get money due to cheap units early game, hence you can bribe the enemies into peace, breaking relationships, trades, etc.
Personally, I use vassels in the biginning of the game to gain the 3 houner and I would put them in the edges of my territory expention to be a shield from other enemies, I don't mind others attack them because they will attack me anyway if I was there so there is not much difference. So what will happen is the 3 vassels I take will die and I am in war with the clan that killed them, that's fine because now they are gone they can't betray me, I gained the benifits from them (+3 houner) and I was prepared for the enemy army thanks for my vassel buying me time. After this point I don't need any vassels at all in the whole game even after ralm devide and after becoming shogun.
Yeah that’s one of the best ways to handle them honestly, as having them on the frontiers means their betrayal isn’t the worst since it’s just as if another clan just invaded you.
@@TripleZHacker exactly
The only provinces that I pick for vassals have no port and will be landlocked by me... This helps reduce the chance they'll be attacked so I get the benefits without the biggest drawback of dragging me into wars.
I know it’s been awhile since your last post, but show some love to the ship warfare lovers out there? I know Mori and Otomo, maybe possibly shimazu. Different ships, their functions, clan perks, different special abilities, night battle, fire, moral, etc 🙂
Indeed it has I am planning on covering naval warfare too!
There any mods for Shogun involving diplomacy?
Honestly i never vassalised the Oda, Imagawa, Tokugawa and Hojo clans... Those 6 regions are just to good not to keep!!! (ok, seven if i play with either Hojo, Oda or Takeda. The initial enemies must die... or vassalise :D) 4 ports for trade, fertile and average soiled region besides the one WITH A GOLD MINE, a region with magistrade so that you can pump out level 3 metsuke and fish for one with the initial trait that buffs his... huh... buff for settlements... so more public order and income on five out of those six regions. Also a region with a smith to recruit mellee infantry. Just a great core empire colection. And both Oda initial region and the region with the smithy are great border regions to defend. Those two and the one with the magistrat are the only ones I upgrade the castle over tier 2 for the second layer for defensive sieges.
About the vassals... other than buffer zones turned on the further corner of Japan, i dont really use them, mostly because they tend to be a magnet for wars... HELL, IN NORMAL I HAD A VASSAL DECLARING WAR ON ANOTHER VASSAL!!! I was playing shimazu and i was sick of the invations of both Mori and Chosokabe... turn both of them into vassals and some turns later BOOM they fucking declred war on each other...
When im going on a full out expantion time, after realm divide, i prefer to have the region rebel over having it be a power that can betray and conquer.
Not as hard as people think. i usually use the Uesugi or Otomo for Vessel domination. Just cause you can start lvling a monk/missionary from round 1 and you dont declare war on factions by causing unrest(Ya see dumb metsuke ^^) take vessels and than cause unrest in their province till the rebels overthrow your vessel. IMPORTANT: don't wait too long. as soon your vessel has more than 12 Units in its army the plan wont work anymore cause rebel forces are most of the time without a general or/and better units. after the rebels take over you just retake the fallen city. now you have +1 honor and the city is yours as well. continue that till you have the max of +3 Honor. now play till you have 2 almost full armys with better units or at least higher stats(due to the weaponsmith and the camp or its upgrade or both. overtake kyoto as early as possible. wait 4 turns till you are shogun. now its way easier to hold vessels. and little tip never think you are safe by the sentence unwavering integrity. made the Sagara my Vessel. married my shogun to one of their daughters. gave several of my and my brothers and sons daughters to them. gave them a 5k Koku present coninously every round throughout the campaigns and in the end i always got betrayed by them. and the ikko ikki stood at my side to the end. strange sometimes but thats shogun 2
I converted my Shimazu clan to Christian and made lot of Vassal. It's good to improve relation to other clans and help a bit in maintaining public order because each clan that I made vassal of it increased honor by 1
Part 3 of abilities when plz
Once i tried to have a game with some vassals just to see what will happen later,and.....they betrayed me after the realm divide,what a pain i need to send some of my army to crush them
Yup they always will betray ya when RD hits
Im using cracked shogun 2 and cheat engine for the money.
Created many vassal before reaching kyoto and spend money for them.
When realm divided happen, i have so many siege at entire province i own that already stacked with 5 Bow Samurai , 5 matchlock samurai 1 cav and the rest infantry + another stack outside city with same composition
I just love war in the shogun 2 and don't really like grinding :3
The only vassals worth having are the peaceful and maybe the defensive ones, afaik they don't have a desire to expand, they just keep to their province doing nothing and so have no need to stab you in the back.
I vassalized the Sagara clan early during an Otomo playthrough and despite the religious differences between the clans, their province being landlocked by mine and their population being a different religion from the clan because of the neighbouring influence, I haven't heard a peep out of them in about 170 turns.
Welp, I'm never going to make a video, so here's how to win using vassals in the mid to late game:
Three vassals right next to each other, surrounded by your territory on all sides; rinse, repeat as much as allowed by the map.
Yeah definitely doable if you limit them but they will likely betray you during realm divide at some point, best to get them after as Shogun as they won’t have so many negative modifiers diplomatically with you.
I think there was another way of getting a vassal. If you manage to conquer a capital of an already defeated clan (For example, AI Clan 1 conquers AI Clan 2 completely, taking all their provinces for themselves and wiping them out) you can get the dead clan to become a vassal. I'm pretty sure that if you do this after Realm Divide, they don't have the Realm Divide behavior towards you.
Yes and I think I mentioned it as part of the vassal through conquest but should’ve given it more emphasis, that method does give the past grievances debuff so yeah only works post realm divide after becoming shogun.
@@TripleZHacker They still have past grievances? Even though not only you were the one who didn't wipe them out or even fight them at all, but you even brought them back to the table? That kinda sucks.
Yeah they can, I need to double check again but I've seen it before when I bring them back, it's so bizarre for sure, but as Shogun it should be fine! @@alduintheanti-dragonborn
Vassels are useful in a way you don;'t have to manage every providence and if you have an vassal that was taken away by the enemy it automatically kicks them out of the territory. Only way I can play a vanilla Hattori campaign and not lose my mind.
I never have vassals in S2. They going become a handicap in the future than they help. I rather do thing myself anyway
P/s: what your opinion about Fourstrider mod?
I haven’t played the mod yet but I’ll check it out. I have used the four strider portraits before and I love those perhaps I’ll cover the mod in a video!
Shogun 2 = Backstabbing 2. Love the game do.
20:55 "Integrity: Dependable"
Ikr never fails to amaze me how the AI is perceived that way yet their actions are the complete OPPOSITE!!!!
Useless? Not at all. So long as you use them correctly.
Main reason to vassal is obviously honour buff.
The downside of course is, eventually they will turn on you unless you manage them correctly.
Oda legendary is best to vassalise saito to north.
Guards north flank, then march on kittabaka and tokugawa (tokugawa should be turn 2 dead)
Beat the inagawa attacks back as you hold tokugawa land. Take imagawa land with saito guarding northern flank. Capture kiatabaka land and then the castle past the mountains near it. Perfect staging ground to attack hattori main base. Build it up to fortress level.
You now also have two holy sites. Depriving enemies of higher level monks too.
Start spamming out oda monks level 3
Demoralise eberything and convert every agent they can.
Then behin the revolts.
Monks are HANDS DOWN the best agents in shogun 2.
Can demoralise an enemy to give you an easy victory, and can spread revolts like wildfire to deprive ai clans of their 1,200 free koku per turn per settlement they own (a.i legendary cheat)
Use your monks on all their level 1 forts (easier to incite) and watch them lose heaps pf provinces and income.
Then use your monks on your allies.
Even better if you have ninja. Start a revolt. Either the rebels win or your vassal sallies out to finish them in the field. Ninja sabotage their army. Start another revolt, rebels capture undefended settlement.
You keep the honour. You got the early gane bonus of an a.i faction (a.i cheat money) guarding your flank.
But you also now get their land before they backstab you (they always backstab)
That's how you do vassals.
Vassals exist to either be a buffer or to die.
I vassalize the worthless lands that are not in the path that I want to expand to. I don't mind my ally taking it later on
The only time I create vassals is if I have a war on two fronts and one side offer peace and accept vassalisaion. Just so I can deal with the bigger threat. Or I've won a major battle capturing a settlement and there are enemy armies near by and I restore a clan to act as a buffer to buy my army time to replenish. The relm divide makes them turn on you anyway. And this seems like a dumb thing to moan about but I hate it that I can devastate a enemy force they have nothing left but one settlement that im laying siege to i offer them vassalisaion and I want a hostage and they always refuse. Even though in reality that's the exact reason for hostages to be taken. I had a marriage through a vassal they where married to my heir super early on and they still betry me like why your grandchildren will inherit the clan.
i established a total of about 8 vassals immediately before the realm divide and after becoming shogun, every single one betrayed me after several turns, regardless of their relations with me; normally, you would think that they would be thankful after liberating them from their original conquerors and being loyal to the new shogun but, no...
Hmm yeah it’s unfortunate, I think you should try establishing them after you become shogun instead of before if you want them to potentially be more loyal. It’s a bad diplomatic mechanic for sure :/
I only create vassals so they can backstab me xD
I want to max out my honor as early as possible so I take some vassals at positions which don´t hurt me if they attack me. Then I´m waiting for them to betray me. And attack them again and now take their land.
what is the requirement to become shogun? just conquer kyoto and hold it?
You have to conquer Kyōto and hold it for a full season or 4 turns~