On Worldbuilding: Hidden Magical Worlds [ Fantastic Beasts l Black Panther l Trollhunters ]
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- čas přidán 11. 06. 2024
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Apologies for the late upload guys! QotD: What makes *your hidden world* unique, different to all those that come before it? Are you worried about the realism of secrecy? Also, go check out my Squarespace link (really helps the channel is we come towards to the end of another fantastic year for the HFM community). Goodness, this is my last OW for 2018. Feels strange.
~ Tim
My “hidden world” stories (84 and counting) are set solely in the hidden world.... you don’t know how the royals’ actions affect the outsiders...
people (humans) do know about it, (if they live there).... (the royals are MOSTLY humans, but there’s also where wolves, vampires, dragons, mutant ninja plants, and creatures that appear human but with green scaly skin from the waste up and like 4 - 5 legged tranchalas 🕷from the waste down) everybody has wings to mark them as a citizen of the world but wether they’re feathered like a bird’s, webbed like a bat’s, or a mix of the two, and what color and patterns they have are up to the individual who well have them attached to their back....
There’s more inter species / inter Elemental marriages than same species / same Element ones... (threw out my books only one married couple is both the same species and the same Element)
A lot of the people can use magic, and some can shape shift and some change their color at will....
If you want me to get these published, reply with any information that I would need for 1) getting them typed out, 2) making sure I won’t get sued as these are FAN FICTION (I lifted some characters from video games and some from an old tv show, but I created most of them) and 3) how self publish and get them into bookstores
I have a geographic hidden world in a book series I’m working on but it is more hidden by human ignorance; tales of dragons here and there, instead of their on the other side of those in-passable mountains 🏔. Now I have been playing with an idea that anyone can use because I’m not: a hidden world of martian dragons that only kids can see and once they are 18 they forget, this is part of their nature they can’t expose themselves if they wanted to. Now you can have a young dragon trying to make contact with a friend that grew up as the Protagonist and Have three endings; a happy ending where he/she succeeds and the friends remembers, he/she succeeds but the friend doesn’t remember or a sad ending where he/she fails ultimately and gives in to a tradition of moving on to new kid.
people are calling the light Fury Luna for her name but I'm just saying it in my opinion but I think Luna suits her better but what do you think what should be the light fury's name
sorry 699 likes, i had to like this video XD
I'm not sure about unique, since the book draws heavily from Celtic Mythology, but yeah; it's the Otherworld of Celtic Mythology (the book takes place in Medieval Scotland). But here me out:
It's hidden-ness is not artificial: it's just a natural occurrence owing to the way it's connected to our world; absolutely zero effort is being made into preserving any kind of grand secret. Said connection between the human world and Otherworld waxes and wanes bi-annually: the connection being strongest on Samhain (Halloween) and six months later. Only on those two days can creatures just walk from one into another completely randomly and unintentionally.
It's not a complete or even intentional secret; that's the reason why there's folklore, and any attempt to blend in is merely out of convenience. There's folklore, but the general populace doesn't really understand it, especially since those who did understand these things (the druids, who mistakenly believed this stuff to be divine) all died out. One family does understand how Otherworld works, and this family has dedicated generations to understanding it in order to protect humanity from it and vice-versa (basically think Scottish Belmonts).
The Fae and other intelligent creatures behave much like they do in Scottish Folklore. Meeting one is so rare (and likely to result in you ending up in Otherworld) that no one really notices. People are more likely to wrongly believe that their child's a changeling than rightly believe that the village goofball's wife is a fairy.
Funny enough; I thought of the economy thing. Fae don't use currency except in dealing with humans; they rely on trade and favours, and even with humans, they avoid using currency when they can, as that's not their culture. In their culture, gratitude is expected; fair payment is expected. In their eyes, money gets rid of that expectation. Since they live quite literally on another world entirely, they tend not to need human resources like livestock. But they will, more than they like to admit, tend to need human help, and one example of this is the need for humans that are skilled with weapons. As their society was built on their ability to use magic, warriors were a foreign concept, and even after hundreds of years of making swords for humans and seeing humans fight each other with iron (their bane, as it's toxic to them if it gets in their system), they haven't fully gotten used to the idea, so humans can really turn the tide of a fight amongst the Fae.
Fae are similar to humans in physicality, so they can blend in when just walking around. However, they are different enough culturally that they can stick out like a sore thumb when doing something humans don't normally do.
What do you guys think? Seriously, I appreciate feedback.
Me: He’s finally done it. He can’t reference Avatar, there is no hidden magic world.
9:15
Me: D*MNIT!
The spirit realm is kind of a secret world that only the Avatar can enter. That is until Korra ruined that by opening the spirit portals...
The Sun Warriors are the hidden society. I was a little surprised he didn't mention it.
He should just make a video titled "On Writing Nonfiction Essays" and spend 45 minutes reviewing Avatar.
there is the sun warriors of the firenation
A hidden society isn't a hidden magic world xD still, ofc he would find a way!!! 😂
Disbelief method idea: Secret world is convinced to open up, but the normals bullheadedly refuse to believe it even past the point of reason, humor ensues.
Thats exactly the dumbest way to go about it. that is just a recipe for a cringy disaster.
And it's already been done.
I love the fact that in supernatural Dean and sam are unknowingly turn into the main characters of a book series and will meet people who think that they are really dedicated fans
@@Theos. To be fair people still think that the Earth is flat so there will still be people who won't believe in vampires or whatever.
CZcams University that's actually an idea I have for my book. For the last several hundred or so years the Ponik the literal god empress of my magical world has been slowly trying to unite the world of Magic and Humans, especially in the wake of more and more human tradgedies Yet internal and external forces have been making it hard to do so due to the persecutions these Grimaik faced before, human arrogance and human beings purposely Ignorant. To the hilarious point the Mages, Wraithes etc don't care anymore- hence all these urban legends of aliens and so on. When the Ponik dies her great grandson is chosen by Fate to inherit her mantle memories and powers, leading him to be basically a magical full on super man. But instead of being a typical "good guy" by the end of the story he becomes a "bad guy" to non magical- not in the sense of destroy the world but force all douchey lead humans' hands. Given he's the ruler of a powerful mysterious basically forgotten about advanced, magical society with satellites, alternate reality domains, magic, flying castles, moon bases, the works. Basically it's what if Aegon the Conqeuror Targaryen took over Essos where Valyria once was than Westeros. And the hilarious parts also comes from how different the worlds developed, with females being more dominant than males given they can better hold magic, how batteries are growing rocks, the geography is a bit more like pangea, etc.
Job Offer: Grocery shopper for magical beings
Requirements: Must look, sound and behave convincingly like a human
Honestly when it comes to reasons for Hidden Worlds to exist I think the reason used in the Fate Stay/Night and it's related pieces of media (referred collectively as the Nasuverse) is actually pretty good. Basically in this world Magic exists, but one of it's main factors is the power of Mystery which basically means that the more people know and understand a thing the weaker magic based on that becomes. So it creates a hidden world where Mages jealously horde their magical knowledge and secrets in order to prevent them getting weaker while at the same time having every reason not to reveal it to the world as that would quickly result in magic losing most of it's power. This is on top of the general feeling of magic weakening as man's scientific knowledge increases.
I'm kind-of disappointed you didn't discuss cases where the "hidden world" is actually the larger society. Many examples of this are alien stories, where the galactic community as a whole keeps humanity in the dark. The most extreme version is probably The Truman Show. Many of the size dependent trends you discuss might actually invert once the society becomes sufficiently large. For example, it's easy to explain why an alien supervillain has no interest revealing galactic society to earthlings, if Earth is an insignificant portion of their universe. For ages I've actually been considering a vampire story, where most people are vampires, but keep the handful of regular humans in the dark, because it simplifies their use as livestock.
Seraph of the End.
@@kamikage9420 Vampires aren't kept a secret from the remaining humans in that though are they?
@@CultistO I suppose, but they were secret until they killed 90% or something of the world's population and enslaved the children underground for their blood.
As for the alien stories, it's not really a secret society, is it? Consider Europe before we went on to colonize Africa. Was Europe a secret society? No, we were just beyond the reach of many African societies and tribes and we had no interest to go to Africa. There was no concerted effort to hide Europe from Africa.
Now, if you get to some place like Star Trek, there is actually an effort. It's strictly forbidden to interfere with lesser societies. But it still doesn't exactly fit with what people generally consider a secret society.
@@Fif0l I'm definitely talking mostly about those stories where there is a concerted effort. They may not a secret society exactly in the way you're thinking, but they are certainly "hidden world stories" as per the subject of the video. For example they often follow the structure of [relatable everyman discovers the new world that has secretly been coexisting with their own, and learns its rules longside the audience], and so on.
Terrible Writing Advice:"Did somebody say love triangle?!"
The ever present koi nec- triangle..
I thought that too 😂😂
Finally! Someone who actually knows what Artemis Fowl is!!!
Dude, same!!
Freaking love that series
One of the best damn series in the world.
~ Tim
@@HelloFutureMe you are the hero we all needed
So awesome. I remember some of my friends who had only read the first five books, and they had thought that was all there was. I was so flabbergasted.
I love the way Stargate dealt with this. They allowed an alien on Earth to make a Stargate-esque TV shows, movie, and eventually, an MMO, for plausible deniability. Any witness or event can be chalked up to fans being fans.
They even preemptively release classified information to control the public narrative. They even recruit geniuses who can solve certain problems hidden inside the MMO.
I think Stargate is my favorite example of a "Hidden World" in general. I also wished they actually made "Revelation" so they could explore people's reaction to the Stargate Program.
A story about a Hidden World revealing it self would be interesting now that I think about it
I love that too, partly exposing a secret in a way that gives them plausible deniability/explain away. I believe a few shows have used that to protect secret identities. Show a reasonable explanation for weirdness and people will latch on to it.
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! THE PERCY JACKSON MOVIE MY EYEESSSSSSSSS
I kind of felt sick just watching the clip.
That movie sucked. Did they cut up the book an then shuvile the parts? That what it feels like they did anyway.
There are no Percy Jackson movies inside Ba Sing Se
Hmm? Oh, I'm sorry. I removed those movies from my mind.
What Percy Jackson movie? I know of no such thing
That idea of a hidden world on an alien planet gave me an idea for one where it’s a colony of humans who landed on an alien planet and are trying to hide their presence from the aliens (either out of fear of the aliens themselves, or fear of diseases spreading between the species, or something else).
Opening sequence of "Star Trek: Insurrection"? ^ ^
Johanna Geisel I haven’t seen any of the pre-reboot Star Trek movies, but now I kinda want to check that out. Is that a newcomer-friendly movie?
That's certainly got a lot of potential! Of course, it requires a great deal of elaboration- if the reason for isolation is fear of disease, is keeping the aliens completely in the dark necessary? As in, would the aliens absolutely violate quarantine if allowed to know about the humans, or could telling them and cooperating with them actually do more to keep them seperate as both sides would be enforcing the no contact rules? Of course, maybe the humans can't communicate with the aliens, or the aliens don't have the knowledge of disease necessary to understand why contact might be bad, etc. Anyways, it would be really cool, and having it be both scifi and a situation where humans are the "hidden world" really sets it apart!
@@GurrenPrime It depends. Have you seen a bit of TNG? If you are at least a bit familiar with the characters and their stories, then you should be fine. If not, then I don't know.
However, that thing about hiding from the aliens is just in the beginning; the rest of the movie deals with other problems.
Johanna Geisel haven’t seen any of the shows either, so I might have to skip it for now.
I haven't heard a "Chicken Run" reference in years. Thanks
Someone spotted it!
~ Tim
Thats because it was just added to Netflix. 💯
Time stamp? I missed it.😥
Nolan Rose 22:20
I caught that too! Love it
Your videos are always a two-edged sword for me. Obviously, they're immensely helpful in as much as they give tons of insight and forces me to look at my story from a different angle. On the other hand, I often feel bad as a writer because my story has a lot of aspects that some would consider "stale" and "bland" (e.g., "the Chosen One", hidden world, etc.). Hence, your videos are always a trade-off between gaining greater insight into writing or keeping intact what little self-confidence I have as a writer. Having said all that, I do appreciate all the effort you put in your videos. So, thank you.
We write what we know. Your story might resemble some of these tropes because the tropes are all around us. Even the most creative ideas have some connection to something else out there. So I wouldn’t feel bad, it’s good that you’re open to learning more from these videos! Don’t give up
Im surprised no mention of Narnia
Narnia is another Dimension, only accessed by an old cook's ring- (later turned into a Wardrobe kept in the old cook's nephew's house)
Or The Power of God.
Technically Narnia isn't very secret either, anyone who has Ever died AnyWhen learns of it, when they join the rest of Transcended People with The Creator.
Yeah, Narnia is less a "hidden world", more "another world" entirely. If you fell into a spaceship and were launched to an alien planet, you wouldn't call it a "hidden" world.
Kingdom Hearts
Disbelief
As used by Lucifer in the tv series of the same name
If you tell enough people often enough they will think you are delusional or insane
Or a method actor
I honestly got annoyed with it after awhile. Especially now that I realized how many people still hold magic-ish beliefs.
Does Humanity Still Believe in Magic?
czcams.com/video/Fp_zEBS5yzA/video.html&t=
I also hated the way they handled atheism on one of the episodes. All atheism means is that you lack a belief in a god or gods.. None of this "Not exactly, I still believe in good and evil" B.S. There is only ONE requirement to be considered an atheist. The prefix A= without, and theism refers to a belief in a god or gods. That is it. Period. It is nothing else.
I always found Hellboy's setting as interesting for the fact the monsters and horrors aren't trying to hide really, its world governments and agencies hiding them. Even the Men in Black series does this, helping aliens blend in plain sight while policing those who step out of line and threaten all the hard work put in. In my opinion, the normal world hiding the magical world or what have you, can be just as effective as the magical world hiding itself.
I'm surprised no one is talking about Fables. It's an excellent series of comics dealing with the day-to-day lives of characters from fairy tales and folklore who live in a hidden society where the main method of keeping themselves secret is through societal control. It's a relatively tight-knit community with a pretty low population, but there's a strong segregation based on how well they can pass for normal, with talking animals and the like forced to live in one place, while more human-looking Fables are allowed to intermingle with the mundane world.
Cool to find a comment about Fables. I've got more experience with the video game The Wolf Among Us than the original comics, but the way that world worked was fascinating
For Harry Potter, it's not like there isn't a large amount of muggles that know the truth. And they are properly connected to the regular world, so getting meat and agriculture shouldn't be too hard. Plus, they have spacial magic that'd allow them to have gardens and farms in small spaces.
In Artemis Fowl, they've got large spaces and it's not like they have no contact outside the under ground at all.
I'm currently working on a story that, for now, I'm calling Demonade. The basic premise of it is that just because these people look terrifying, just because they're part of a race called demons, doesn't mean they're evil. The demons live in a separate world, isolated from humans, and the only way to travel between them is via a kind of magic that only demons have (there are 4 kinds of magic, one inherently bound to each of the three races (gods, humans, and demons), and another that is generally used by humans but could also be used by demons). Humans are aware of the existence of demons, and are generally hostile to them (and thus demons are wary of them in return), but they can't access their homeland. However, the demons are forced to venture into the human world by the fact that the demon realm is a wasteland, and many resources are extremely rare. When they come to the human world, they have to be wary not of revealing their existence, but their presence as individuals.
The story follows a demon who befriends a human despite the tension between the races, and subsequently the reactions of each group when they are discovered.
This sounds baddass.
Sounds cool. Going to have to work on that name though. Sounds like a Demon sports drink.
that reminds me of a story I was thinking of writing, where demons and angels exist, but neither one is "more evil" than the other. Humans just assumed that angels were good and demons were bad because they thought that that light=good, and fire=bad. If anything, the angels are the "bad guys", because when trying to get people to sell their souls to them, they actively lie about their intentions, using our widespread belief that they're "good"
The fantasy races in my story are actually pretty similar. I have 4 fantasy races: angels, demons, good dark angels, and bad dark angels. However angels and good dark angels aren't necessarily "good" and demons and bad dark angels aren't necessarily "bad". It mostly has to do with the kind of magic each race possesses. Where the angels and good dark angels have light magic and demons and bad dark angels have dark magic, but light doesn't equal good and dark doesn't equal bad. It also partially has to do with a war between the 4 races that happened a hundred years prior to the present time of the book. But mostly has to do with their magic types.
One of my stories revolves around gods, monsters, mythical creatures, fae, and all manor of legendary creatures from every culture around the world trying to live in secret among humanity, there are the occasional sightings but often enough they just become urban legend. Then a group of adolescent mythical creatures decide they don't want to be normal like everyone else and try to be heroes which ends up getting them involved with some very dangerous evil forces, then as balancing being a hero and maintaining a secret identity becomes more difficult two of the boys get into a fight that ruins everything and the world spirals into a state of chaos and distrust
Sounds interesting. Is it a hard or soft magic system?
@@km1dash6 I'm not sure if I can answer that right now, because I am using multiple cultures each one has their own take on their own system of magic so Nordic and Celtic Magic is probably going to be a more Soft Magic system since in their myths magical things just seem to happen, while on the other hand the Chinese Magic system would probably be more of a Hard Magic system following Chinese Alchemy and the 5 elements: Fire, Earth, Metal, Water, and Wood.
Who else watched trollhunters? I loved it, and I got so excited when I saw trollhunters in the title....
Give me The memes me to
I've actually recently watched Hellboy for the time, and one thing I can't understand is how anyone can buy that Hellboy doesn't exist, without any major spoilers, Hellboy is in a crowded New York Subways and streets where dozen people can see him, and you can see the damage of his fights, unless they have some way to instantly fix any damage that we didn't see in the movie.
A fun idea I use for hidden worlds is to simply not reveal it. Sprinkle hints here and there for a while, but don't let the audience, reader, or in my case players, know about it for a long time. Then see if they find it or finally reviel it to them. A lot of hidden world stories just show them selves to the protagonist right away. If the protagonist doesnt find out about the hidden world then it makes that world seem more realistic, as if they can actually keep their secret.
I agree. While in the cases I'm thinking of, the audience is already aware, but the protagonist of each only catches glimpses of the world before it's fully revealed. They get a glimpse of what's behind the curtain, but need that extra push to fully convince themselves that this is how the world truly is.
I think it might work better in a game than in a novel? Unless the story can really start outside of the magic world but then is it still about the magic world?
@@Tenju96 could possibly work as a midway twist, or twist ending in a series; even if just the reader who sees it, anticipating the protagonist to discover/realise as it gets more and more obvious. As one comment says, possibly to extreme levels where they have no choice but to accept it/makes more sense than not. Like Occam's Razor: the simplest solution is usually the right one, no matter how crazy.
Recently been reading vampire the masquerade world of darkness lore and have been enjoying it for all the points you bring up in your video
There is a series of official videos for that world's lore - The Gentleman's Guide to Vampires. They are 6 or 7, all long between 30 and 40 minutes.
And play Bloodlines. Masterpiece of a game.
@@edoardoprevelato6577 are you talking about the gentlemans video series on his channel or the newer ones on the white wolf channel I love the world but I pretty much just started reading it
@@jrk22233 the newer ones from Wolf, they are updated to the last version of the game and of better quality overall.
As a Mage the Ascension fan I recommend you giving it a read, it is awesome and has a different take on the hidden world, using magical veil with disbelief.
Also Werewolf the Apocalypse is good too.
The mist in the percy jackson series was always one of my favorite explanations for keeping the world hidden from mortals.
One of my favorite hidden world stories is Neverwhere by Neil Gaiman. (minor SPOILERS) What’s funny about the story is that the MC gets sucked in randomly (like is literally an average Joe guy through and through until he takes agency in the story later on) but has to go back to it after the person who sucked him in leaves him to his own devices because once you interact with the hidden world you get hidden as well, otherwise you just forget it, and that’s how he gets involved.
I really liked how that worked as a homeless metaphor.
I remember a World of Darkness one-shot I played in where my vampire maintained the masquerade by being a massive Twilight fangirl and just straight up admitting that she was a vampire to everybody.
Cold Cereal by Adam Rex is quite interesting in that magical creatures who escape/accidentally leave their hidden world are captured with the intent of extracting their magic but are simultaneously used as cereal company mascots. Despite real magical creatures appearing in ads, no one gives it a second thought, believing them to be fake.
Marvel love their hidden world new Salem, inhuman community, wakanda, Atlantis, k'un lun and it heavenly cities and many more
Xavier Institute counts too.
Wolverine and the X men also counts as a hidden world( school).
At least the inhuman community was on the dark side of the moon.
It's because Marvel is a shitload of separate stories that were kinda just mashed into one world.
Atlantis? Isn't that from DC? Or is there an Atlantis on Marvel?
I just have to say, I picked up a Brent Weeks book along with a couple other books you reference regularly, turns out Brent Weeks was my sister's high school English teacher. Crazy!
Robert Zarfas that’s so cool!
These videos of yours make me appreciate all the shows and movies and books I already appreciate even more!
I'm trying to write a story where the mortals know the wizards exist but pretend they don't to make the wizards feel good. Do you guys think that's a good idea?
Will be difficult to pull off... The mortals will have to be very empathetic and to make it easier, the Wizards have to be inferior. I imagine it being like parents knowing what their children 'secretly' are doing, but pretending not to do so.
Try not to make it like the example I just gave - unless of course that is exactly what you want -- and it might work :)
@@leonard-gq5eh Thank You for the advice!
It think it's an awesome idea, but due to what 2003leonard points out it would probably only function on small scale. Like in a small town where everybody knows each other so that a secret social agreement not to "notice" the wizards can be made.
Maybe you can make it like in the old European fables where the elf/imp characters have to leave your house if you see them (or give them clothing). If there was a reason why the wizards had to leave the town if they were discovered, and if everybody knew that reason, but everybody wants them to stay because they like them, then the normal towns folk would try to not "notice".
I think that sounds really funny. I feel that idea would work just fine in a more humorous or playful story, but it might require some more explaining in a serious one. ^-^
@@rosymaple6838 I totally agree.
Considering how many times you used the phrase "masquerade society" in this video, I am rather surprised you didnt once mention Vampire the Masquerade or any of the rest of White Wolf's World of Darkness setting.
That might just be the most detailed and in-depth hidden world in all of fiction.
But what if the magic world is not hidden but is being forgotten? My world is base on Native American or ancient Mayan believes that is being forgotten through time and the few magicians that have knowledge from ancient times are hidden in the mountains because they can practice they beliefs there without being interfered or criticized by modern society. Also, there are a few magicians in this world because they don't need their magic or knowledge anymore because they have modern tectology and those who are born with magic just refuse to learn it just to blend in with society.
That sounds awesome.
(:
Wouldn't be that similar to percy Jackson, the previous un hidden world was faded into myth but still integrate it with public will turn more difficult.
What's it called? I'd like to learn more about Native American myth/folklore.
@@snaketooth0943 I have no idea what the name of the book will be XD
@@sarahe.recalde8382 Oh okay then... will you write back to me once you've named it? Maybe "Native Magic"?
Ever read the Skulduggery Pleasant series by Derek Landy? It's got a hard magic system and what i consider to be a well developed hidden magical world which develops over the course of the series. Don't remember it being mentioned in any of the On Writing videos so far.
I have!
Getting some good mileage out of Mr.Crocker, ain't ya? 😂😂
Thanks for the comment, allowed me to find out hell he was saying >.
Anyone else have a trauma flash back to twilight when he covered the modern urban fantasy with a love triangle
It was more like a Mortal Instruments flashback for me... XD
Great video. Glad you mentioned Celtic Mythology and Otherworld; I feel it tends to get overlooked a lot when people look for inspiration for their fantasy worlds. It's all elves and dwarves (Norse), vampires and werewolves (Slavic), nymphs and centaurs (Greco-Roman), etc. Even when a story does have fairies, it's the tiny butterfly-winged kind created by the Victorian English.
I know right, I've struggled finding stories about it that aren't just the myths themselves or retelling. I find the Otherworld a big inspiration for my story as well as the Celtic goddesses.
@@music2012pink Cool; I hope you're able to complete your story.
I can honestly say that I don't think I expected a reply to this comment (to be honest, I completely forgot that this comment existed after 4 years).
@@matthewmuir8884 thank you, me too. I wasn't expecting you to reply with it being so old there was no guarantee you were still active on here. Its understandable you would forget after 4 years, I can completely forget about comments from about a year ago til see a reply.
It often reminds me of part of my story I forgot about after rambling about it cause talking about it helps me think/understand it better. I can struggle to write for long, in one go, and overall as my own worst critic and easily bored. I even struggle to finish books cause of it.
But I have been working on it and people have really liked it, with it not able to drag cause I have to keep my own interest. I just need to work on my dialogue but if I stick to a historic fantasy series (before modern English) then I might get away with keeping it to a minimum, especially useful as I add new characters throughout history from across the world.
Mythology/beliefs being a key thread throughout with Celtic Mythology being the main one, resulting in a complex society in "hidden magical worlds" that's grown along side ours.
Of course with it's own drama and interesting plot at each stage, possibly a revolution or two but no spoilers, I may have already said too much. Who knows how it could evolve over time.
I'm surprised more stories don't incorporate the fact that nowadays so much can be faked in videos and photos, meaning if any examples of the hidden world where leaked then it would take a huge amount of it before any traction would be gained. Honestly that was my biggest issue with Glass, M.Night Shamlamadingdong teased the idea of the superhumans being revealed at a grand opening with thousands of eye witnesses and live footage making it incredibly convincing to most, instead it's a dozen police officers and an odd staff member paired with some leaked CCTV footage. The ending had you believe that this whistleblower moment is a cataclysmic revelation that's gonna shake the very foundations of society giving way to a new breed of extraordinary people, when in actuality it'll be viewed as a fake or an ad.
Another element of hidden world stories I'd like to mention is "how easy is it for people from the worlds to enter the other ones. Take alternate dimension stories where the hidden world is hidden in another dimension like in Rick and Morty or Danny Phantom. In these examples not just anyone can just pass through on a whim, only certain individuals. In Danny Phantom the only way the two worlds can meet is with a portal which you either have to find either on purpose or accident like the ghosts, or have to create one like Danny's parents or Vlad do. And in Rick and Morty's case not anyone from other dimensions can travel across dimensions, only those with access to that kind of technology that allows you to do that. Or even Avatar and how it deals with the spirit world and how only spiritually gifted individuals can gain access to it. If the goal is to make the hidden world hidden feel believable in how it can remain hidden for a long period of time, one way can be to make it more difficult for characters to travel from between worlds. It also makes a character more interesting if they are able to find a way to bridge the worlds, and thus on that alone can explain their importance to the story.
Glad you managed to get that Avatar reference in there
A book that takes the economy into consideration is the skullduggery pleasant series,
In one of the last books, somebody works towards creating a bank that is connected to every "normal" bank and wall street in a way it cant be discovered
I don't remember that part in the books, I do remember the author though that puts magical symbols into his books to enslave his readers emotionally forcing them to buy his books making him richer
It is in ressurection or midnight i think, its one of the things the new goverment in rohaven is trying to do
15:22 I feel like I'm missing out on the joke because I can't hear what the dude is screaming.
All hail lord MISHKA may he forever more be beautiful and Devine
What about Ga'Hoole in Legend of the Guardians The Owls of Ga'Hoole?
The Dragon Critic aka Lee O Brien great movie!
Ah yes!
The Guardians of Gahoole series was magnificent!
Well technically it isn't a magic secret world. However I'll say its 50/50 since they are only known for a bedtime story so the source can't be very fateful
Saw the names in the title and I’m like yes!!!!!
Ikr!!! :)
There is an Eastern Fantasy book that I love, called Dragon King's son-in-law, where the hidden society plays a major role in the narrative, and all the points you mentioned (economy,gov't/politics,secrecy) are all covered smartly. Especially the economy; the different clans are very active in the human world businesses, usually CEO's or hold key positions and control many assets in human land, so the clans are able to live among humans via human world assets. Very simple and straightforward, and does the trick nicely.
9:15 I knew you'll get avatar into the episode in one way or another ;D
11:38 Well, if you think about it, The usage of mist, in The Percy Jackson series, along with The Currency of Denarri, is a way, how Magical Items are kept hidden.
Similarly, in ATLA, The City of Ba Sing Se, is also kept unaware of the outside world, via heavy regulations on trade (refer to no cabbages being allowed to be sent to Ba Sing Se), and propaganda.
(:
Do you happen to know Vampire the Masquerade? If not, look up for the 3rd Edition (please, stay away from 5th)
"In H.P. Lovecraft's works, there is a veil of sorts that prevents mortals from seeing the eldritch horror realities of the world, and where this veil comes from is incredibly mysterious..."
I don't think that's an accurate description at all. Admittedly I've hardly read any of Lovecraft's original works, but I'm fairly familiar with them through secondary sources, and I don't recall any of them mentioning a "veil" like you described. I'd say that Lovecraft's hidden world falls squarely into the "disbelief" category that you talked about later in the video. In his stories, a lot of "primitive" people have *some* knowledge of the elder gods, but more "civilized" and "enlightened" folks dismiss those beliefs as irrational superstition -- except for a few scholars of the arcane, who risk their sanity by delving into eldritch lore.
Although in his case, the hidden world isn't trying to stay hidden to keep itself safe from mortals. Rather, those mortals who discover the hidden world often keep what they know secret in order to keep *mortals* safe from the hidden world.
I know this video was made more than a year back, but to answer the question at the end of the video: the unique (I hope) part of my hidden world story is that it's actually about the mundane people discovering the hidden worlds. You said: "if you focus on realistic world building, a hidden world might not be the way to go".. but exactly the fact that keeping a secret society secret gets more and more difficult the bigger it grows is what I want to use in my story. The characters are mundane people and the story is not a Harry Potter style "relatable teenager discovers a fantastical hidden world he is now a part of" but a story about chasing myth and legend following some clues others dismiss as fairytales. After the first Harry Potter book/movie the presence of magic doesn't shock us anymore. The story is about being part of a magical world and we knew it would be before reading the very first word on the very first page. But the search for magic and wonder in a world that feels recognizable and mundane is the way I hope to create a sense of wonder. Discovery is the goal of the story, not the kickstarter of it and it isn't till the end of the story the reader will know if the protagonists will truly find a world of wonder or have been chasing fairytales all along. In order to create a sense of wonder, discoveries must awe you. In Harry Potter new kinds of magic are just swung at you with each new page, while a mundane world in which suddenly a mythical creature is discovered gets a "wow!!" from the reader. This last reaction is what I hope to achieve with every discovery in the story.
I think all the "hidden worlds" face the problem of stagnation, sooner or later. Among the examples in the title, i think the Wizarding World is the one which has it the worst, simply because it's ALREADY stale, at least in England (which is pretty much a fascist dictatorship well before Voldy takes power). For a number of reasons (mainly a horrid schooling system), they rely on magic for EVERYTHING. This laziness expands onto their society, politics and progress, which seemingly are unchanged since 1800.
Wakanda relies heavily on Vibranium, but their R&D is always moving forward, simply because young minds like Shuri's are ENCOURAGED to think about new things and new ways to do things. In magical England, having the classic 1800 social mentality of "respect your elders, they always know better", as depicted by Molly Wesley multiple times, young adults are DISCOURAGED from thinking outside the box. Just look at how much Hermione (a muggleborn of all people) freaked out when Harry used Snape's instructions instead of, and i quote, "the official ones".
Wakanda forever.
Edoardo Prevelato heck yeah wakanda forever
I think what helps Wakanda keep moving forward technologically is the fact that they have to adapt their methods of concealment as the world around them advances. Presumably their distortion shield hides them from satellites, but there's no way they started off with that sort of functionality because it wouldn't be needed. Geography and the border tribe were probably sufficient for most of their history, and as the outer world got closer to discovering them Wakanda stayed ahead of the curve.
There's probably something to be said for the societal effects of isolation, however- for good and bad. They have preserved their uniquely African culture from appropriation and extermination by the outside world, but they also run under a monarchial government that is vulnerable to exploitation. It makes me wonder how much power that council of elders has, if its members are elected, etc.
But Black Panther (the movie) sucks from a storytelling perspective. Good politics though (meaning it fit well with political tension and was successful because of that). A lot of the characters were also kind of bland (with exceptions to Claw and Shuri).
@@AshesandFlames I mean... I didn't find the characters bland? All of them fit in with the conflicts and themes of the movie in ways that enhanced both the characters and the themes, making everything feel really tight and well put together. But everyone has different taste in characters, so that's whatever. And "sucks from a storytelling perspective" is... really vague. Care to explain?
Edoardo Prevelato I think the problem of JK Rowling‘s wizard-world is: How are the able to stay hidden? I her world a wizard/witch can be born from muggle (non-magic) parents. Wizards and witches exist all over the world. They have always been existing, in every time period since humans exited. That means that it could also be possible, that a salve-child with magic powers could have been born. Couldn’t that child technicaly put an end to slavery with his/her magic powers? What if there was a wizard or witch in a concentration camp? Shouldn’t that person be able to free themselves?
You are really well read bro
19:17 You almost said the synopsis of my series, I think I should be concerned.
"...or worse: expelled". I can count on your videos providing that 5 to 10% of humor that makes me laugh out loud when I least expect it.
I remember writing a fan fiction between Harry Potter and my book. The antagonist is taking over the normal world during Voldemort’s second rise to power, so no one from the wizarding world cares. That is until the antagonist walks right up to Hogwarts.
You didn't read the book, did you? ^^'
@@Tenju96 I did actually
Who else seen "The Magicians"😍😍😍
Since you did The Hidden World trope you might want to cover; The Unmasqued World
One interesting example is Amazon Lily from One Piece. It is an island that used to be almost unreachable, because no wind blows in the sea around it and it is populated by sea monsters. The only one who can leave or approach the island is the queen, because she has domesticated two poisonous sea monsters that pull her ship and that are poisonous so even the other sea monsters are afraid of them. The population consists entirely of the children of the crew of the ship (for some reason, the Kuja have only female children).
Since the queen owns the entire ship, the population is unable to leave the island and knows nothing about the world outside. Also it is very difficult to get there from the outside, because the technology does not exist. At least it did not exist until now...
A wise-ass once said something like “Three people may keep a secret if two of them are dead”
I watched this because I was looking for advice on writing my latest world, which incorporates an already fantastical world with a secret world. While wolfmen and fishfolk are considered mundane, I was thinking there are still things too terrifying to know exist so people often won't believe these horrors exist until they see them. While there is an organization to help mitigate these horrors, similar to the Dunedain Rangers of Tolkien's Legendarium, they don't encourage their knowledge because these Rangers (I'll call them that for simplicity) are the only ones capable of dealing with these things, and they don't want to cause undue panic or fear. For example, let's say wraiths like Tolkien's exist and only special weapons that are hard to make are the only reliable way to combat them. Would you tell everyone, including people who couldn't do anything about it, that these things exist? No, because their lives are hard enough that this would only add constant fear of darkness to their lives as they have no means of combating them. I will keep your advice in mind though it will still be difficult as trying to write magic being normal and having horrors in the dark be strange is something I've never really seen, though maybe there are books I haven't read yet.
Ive been writing a fantasy book for some time. I added a prologue after writing about 6 or so chapters in, and originally it was in order to express tension or sense of doom that is not established until later. It takes place an unspecified distance in the past that is never truly explained, but is something like several milennia in the past. It is also only a conversation. With the only description being from one characters thoughts about the other. They talk about morality and how theyve come to be on opposing sides of how to use their powers theyve been gifted and what it means to be chosen and for what purpose.
Grimm was really great tho. Nick was so bad ass the fear for a Grimm was so refreshing and his the weapons and info the grimm over the years was cool concept overall
My hidden world is unique as it isnt hidden. What i mean by that is that people know it exsists by common sense. However no one knoes where they are, how many there are, how strong they are or anything. People just know they exsist. Oh yeah they also own everything and are responsible for the protagonist being created as well as thousands of others. Beings faded into myth and legend from this place.
It stays hidden by moving every week very long distances. And the people inside are all monitered at all times. Lets just say it takes 50 years for a group of elite soldiers who have dedicated their life to finding this group to actualy get a chance to.
The final unique factor is that this hidden world is not filled with magical creatures, its filled mostly by very smart but otherwise normal people who live normal lives. Why no one speaks out. The risk of anyone finding out would likely mean their utter destruction.
Many years of planning have gone to making this universe, not world the entire universe, down to the economics of multiple places within it.
Ok im done now.
that sounds quite interesting.
Is your work completed, or still in progress?
"Like those demon pixies living in your pumpkins"
Me: *dying of laughter*
I literally just stepped away from binging your videos for a break and now you've put up a new video that I can't ignore.
I absolutely love your On Writing/Worldbuilding series!
One hidden society that first surprised me and then disappointed me and then surprised me again was Esthar in FFVIII.
During the game there are hints dropped everywhere, but public knowledge has it that the state had a dictatorship, then a civil war and then was never heard of again. These are all true, but they actually isolated themselves Wakanda style. Everyone knows it should be there, but noone really cares enough to go look for them. (Which imo is an interesting premise) It works, because they are on another continent and the use of radio waves was abandoned due to regular world wide interference which makes it unprofitable.
It gets a bit meh when you actually discover the state and their society is pretty much “the same but more technology“ and theres crappy 1960's copycat art deco everywhere.
It gets cool again when you discover how they handle space travel (it goes into so-crazy-its-good territory).
Also, I know the plot of the game is pretty weak, but boy do they know how to foreshadow stuff.
Hi tim, i do wish you could have included the speck from "Horton hears a who".... Not that it's magical in any way but it would still be interesting. Hope I don't sound like the fleshbending fans
I don't know how you do it. Every time I think up a new idea for a story and find myself struggling to piece it together you come out with a new video on that exact topic... :)
OH HELL YES A NEW WORLDBUILDING VID FROM HELLO FUTURE ME
THANK YOUUUUUU I LOVE UR VIDS ON STORY WRTING AND WORLDBUILDING
I had to pause halfway through the video to capitalise on one of those sparingly beautiful moments of inspiration. Here's the result:
Everything changed on the Day of Discovery. With a society still squabbling over race and gender discrepancies, you can imagine the impact of a sudden new race. Or was it? A race, I mean.
Settle down. No, I do mean it. Were they even human? Certainly humanoid, but with the colourful horns, the pointed teeth and the shriveled, folding skin, can you really blame me for asking?
You must have thought of it yourself, just like I have. And on that day, did you not wonder where they came from? Why they stepped over the shroud of invisibility that hid them?
We all did. And I do not claim to be a prophet, but I thought of war too.
I kind of disagree where you say "there's no reason to rely on these three tropes in constructing your hidden world" - to my mind, there's one very good reason for why you'd use those three tropes. It's even in your title no less: worldbuilding. A hidden world set in a completely different world from our own gives you twice as much worldbuilding to do. If you start from the basis of the modern world, relying on familiar elements - urban fantasy, in essence - everybody's already familiar with your "mundane" world. We know the morals and ethics, the social values, the technology level, all the setting rules and locations are already established and we've got a bunch of historical stuff to rely on if we're looking for the reason it stays hidden - the inquisition, the Holocaust, world wars, all that - whereas, if you're setting this in a fantasy/sci-fi world all of its own, you have to do all of that establishing legwork ON TOP OF all the establishing legwork of the hidden world. In urban fantasy you can just have your wise magical mentor say "we can't reveal our existence to the humans, they don't cope with 'different' well" and your reader thinks about the varied and creative ways humankind has, over the course of history, attack, oppressed, and tried to destroy people who were classed as 'different' and then goes "yeah, dude's got a point". In a fantasy world you need to establish: who are your "normal" people, what's their history, what are their values, what do they like, what do they not like, what's their technology, what things do they have at their disposal, how do they approach dilemmas like this, if you go with the "kill everybody who learns of the secret world" or other ethically iffy approaches you have to establish how people feel about that, who might disagree, why might they disagree. I agree that setting it in an alternate reality from our own could be fascinating, and would certainly be a nice change of pace, don't get me wrong - it's just that I think there really is one big, good reason for why you'd rely on those three tropes when writing a hidden world novel.
Also the desire to draw an emotional connection; as you say, people enjoy the idea of a hidden magical world buried just out of sight of our own, and to me (an admitted lover of urban fantasy) that appeal is increased the closer it seems to be. It's not just like there's a medieval fantasy world hidden over the next hill, it's that these things are real, and close, and there's only a tissue-paper thin wall separating them, and you get that effect by tying your fantasy into the most recognisable elements you can find; big landmarks in the real world have significance in the hidden world, the awful, bullying teacher turns out to be a fury, you take notable but ordinary experiences and give them a fantasy twist because that helps the audience relate to what's going on, gives you a quick shorthand to how they should be feeling (because we've all gone through that before), and enhance the sense of fantasy and wonder by showing that mystical magical truths might have been there all along, but *just* beneath the surface
Understandable point about worldbuilding, but what I said was, "There's no real reason you *need* to rely on these three tropes in writing your hidden society story." It was more a remark on how people treat those tropes as the default when you don't need to. Obviously, there are reasons people might want to.
~ Tim
Agreeing with HFM. The tropes do make worldbuilding easier, but they aren't necessary to the process.
@@HelloFutureMe That's fair, I apologise if I misread your statement. I also feel the need to apologise for the novel-length comment, I don't mean to come across like one of "those guys" but I tend to get carried away when it's talking about writing. I love the channel and it's really nice to see a fellow kiwi out there contributing to the creative community of the world, keep it up!
@@Wfftam You think that's long, you should see me when something gets me going. I write out entire essays sometimes. I think as long as you're going somewhere there's nothing wrong with the occasional long post.
Wfftam
Never apologize for saying all you need to say. It was a good comment.
Every time I need help in writing you’re always there I looooove your content ❤️
Great video as always, Tim! I just started working on a hidden magical world novel and your tips were super helpful.
Notification squad where you at!!!!!
Right here
Is trollhunter worth watching? I started it the first 3 episodes and everything was predictable and boring.
It is SOOOOO worth watching. It purposefully takes all the stereotypes and predictableness and then slowly, certainly, wraps them and twists them and throws it into your face and punches them into you time and time again until they are unrecognizably deformed and you are left with the searing pain of the impact.
um wow that reply was intense
but yeah the characters are very well written the humour is great and the world building is great .
ah wow that reply was intense.
the lowdown is this. the characters and worldbuilding are great. the animation stars out sub-par but ends up great. the story is interesting and well thought out while also subverting expectations.
All I'm saying is this: a very famous character appears in season 3, he's a complete and utter jackass and I LOVE IT!
radu nicolae OK yeah that's fairXD
‘Ey! One of my favorite shows Grimm got a shout out! Seriously that series was criminally underrated, thanks for mentioning it.
The thing that I never get from the secret world within the regular world (Harry Potter), is that (besides laws saying you can't and other contrived stuff) there's next to nothing stopping the society from overtaking and becoming the rulers of the normal world. You might say the Ministry of Magic from Harry Potter stops this but who was there to inforce it when we were stone/bronze age societies where the rule of law was normally might makes right. That would flow into a completely different modern world as since your side has all the powers of the cosmos and your enemies have pointed sticks, why would you ever slink into the shadows?
A lack of wands.
@@Michael-fd1gx What's stopping Mass Production?
@@MineKynoMine in the earlier times, muggles would just gang up on and attack wizards that were discovered, this encouraged them to be secretive so that they could overcome the muggles, such as at one point in the medival period, wizards shared with each other how to survive being burnt alive, by revealing themselves they would just weaken themselves since they advance most quickly in secrecy not having to worry about muggles attacking them
No Avatar referance :(
There is no hidden magical world in avatar.
At 9:15 my dude ;P
Sun Warriors (kind of)
My hidden world is an artificial construct built in a limited area. It feeds off the energy of hyperspace
Okay the transition to squarespace at the end was extremely smooth, I had to laugh out loud ^^
sorry, i stopped watching to watch the Artemis Fowl trailer. I also, now, have feelings about it. I feel like that trailer showed a clip of a piece of crap.
'Feelings' is about right.
Just don’t go the Rick Riordan route and say that dinosaurs don’t exist.
Samuel Titone Wait, when did he write that?
Samuel Titone I don’t think those books ever said Dino’s don’t exist, I think it only said the skull of one specific Dino in the smithsonian or something was actually the skull from a Greek mythical creature
(Edit: As some of the comments below point out, it wasn't even a full skull. It was only some teeth that weren't really Dino teeth)
I don't think he ever wrote that; the closest thing that I can think of is in book 3, and even then, it's just that a particular case of dragon teeth was mistaken for T. Rex teeth. Ironically, the minion grabbed the sabretooth tiger teeth by accident, so the first attempt to make skeleton warriors out of the dragon teeth just resulted in some undead kittens.
1018monty in The Titan’s Curse “He held up one of the teeth and smiled. ‘Dinosaur teeth-ha! Those foolish mortals don’t even know when they have dragon teeth in their possession.” (Riordan 135)
It was quite possibly one of the most infuriating things I’ve ever read ever, up there with the scene earlier in the book where Apollo makes fun of Nico for believing that the Sun is a Star.
Um; that line is the exact line that I was talking about, and, in it, Atlas wasn't saying that dinosaurs don't exist; he was saying that humans mistook the dragon teeth for dinosaur teeth, which makes sense. If you don't believe dragons exist, and all you find are teeth, you're going to think they're dinosaur teeth, or at least the teeth of some kind of prehistoric animal.
I think you may have also misunderstood the star thing as well, but I don't have a quote from the book.
Thanks for this video, Tim. I've just started worldbuilding a hidden magical society & it's good to get some pointers about the various aspects I need to consider when writing.
Fullmetal Alchemist 2003 solved the problem nicely. The world in which Amestris exists is a parallel world connected by the Gate. This is highlighted near the end of the series and in Conqueror of Shamballa. The same people exist in both worlds with differing names, but they are practically the same in the small ways that most don't realize. The difference is characters like Fritz Lang who is much like how his counterpart Fuhrer King Bradley acts in public without the darker and more sinister homunculus side to him. In this way, there is no need to keep the worlds separate because both aren't even aware of each other. If they are, it's in very rare mythology because some rare people managed to survive paying the Gate's price.
First I have to say, I absolutely love your channel and your content, but I despise the hidden magic world trope so much. I find the urban fantasy genre is the worst one out there and is very uninteresting and uninspired. I hate Harry Potter and all of its clones. I will say that Black Panther does pull it off because it’s not magic. It’s tech with magical qualities.
Oh, a *lot* of people do. It's totally fair to.
~ Tim
Josh Korte Could you please explain why?
Josh Korte so basically you hate good writing? Noted.
I agree that much of the urban fantasy genre is uninspired, but I still enjoy it, mostly (at least specific series).
There are some that manage to differentiate themselves nicely, such as the Bartimaeus Trilogy (which averts the hidden world thing by making it an alternate history where magicians become the ruling class) and the Mathew Swift series (which puts a hard focus on the word "urban" with its magic system [pulling electricity out of wires, spray paint spells, an anthropomorphic personification of bag ladies, etc] and uses a stream-of-consciousness style to interesting effect).
Heh, I do not blame you. Personalty I think the whole hidden magic world trope is a seriously overused idea that has been used so much that even when it is done right, it still feels stale to me. I do not hate the very idea of a hidden magical world, but, I just think that too many writers of Urban Fantasy are using the trope as a lazy shortcut in order to do less world building and use very handwavey excuses to keep it hidden from ''normals''.
7:44 seeing a clip from "Push" made me so happy. i haven't met anyone who has seen it but i loved it.
I loved artemis fowl when i was younger. Im almost tempted to reread it.
every video on this channel adds one more book to my wishlist.
I'm working on a story that has 5 cultures close to each other. 2 of them are "hidden".
One is close and interacts but keeps part of themselves hidden.
The 2nd is geographically isolated but does have a few who interact with select people from the other cultures.
I'm treating them more as cultures interacting and relating to each other.
Loved the reference to Push in the video editing
This reminds me of the Southern Vampire Mystery (Trueblood) series. The hidden world is, somewhat, exposed before the start of the series with vampires coming out. It also touches a bit on how the normal world reacts to just that bit of news. But you also find it is just the tip of the iceberg, with a whole society and variety of peoples that aren't exposed. People do stumble on or get brought into the hidden world, but there's depths that aren't always known. It is integrated, to a point, in the normal world. The lead character, a telepath, also works as a waitress. A werewolf is also a civil engineer who owns a small company. They live in the world, but then go on "camping trips" to properties that are, to everyone else a private hunting preserve. They just don't know what kind of hunting it is. Plus magic is real so there are wards to keep the general public from getting too curious about things. It's a pretty well-built fictional world. Also, read the books, they're actually better than the TV show.
Hearing someone mention Grimm made me way too happy. I loved watching that show with my mom. It brings back a lot of memories...
Am so happy the fowl series got a mention that's the first one I thought of. Love that series
You are a truly amazing youtuber! also, I LOVE Artemis Fowl!!
I think an interesting example of this type of world is the Fablehaven series. In it, magical creatures are confined to a variety of preserves, isolated by geography and magical enchantments. The creatures within are bound by a magical contract of sorts that prevents them from entering the "normal" world, even the evil ones.
It's so awesome the Lightbringer series is getting referenced here. That series really needs more attention, one of my favorites ever.
Niel Gaiman's "Neverwhere" has a pretty cool system of government and trade and has an interesting take on if it gets discovered.