Star Trek Picard Creates Romulan Borg Creation Connection!
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- čas přidán 22. 03. 2020
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Do you think The Romulans are guarding this secret? Do you have a theory of your own? Let's talk about it below! Please Like this video and we hope all of your family's stay safe and healthy as we get through this crazy time! We Are The Borg LIMITED stock: mixedtees.com/WeAreTheBorg 20% off coupon: THEPOPCAST -- Thank you for the support!
Nobody asked for the Borgs origin!
I like the idea everyone that doesn't is afraid of ruining the magic but I think it would add to the legacy ten fold
@@joanvincent11 A lot of people disagree. It doesn't make sense.
Q is Picards dog, Number one . He took this form to be near him.
I think you guys are way over estimating the current Show runners / writers' canon knowledge and commitment to coherent story telling....Kurtzman and his bunch don't think about these things nor they give a shit
Your theories on starwars ROS (regarding emperor's essence being trapped in Vader's helmet) was also more compelling than what we actually got
The borg are the only group in sci fi that has figured out that ships not designed to be used in an atmosphere don't have to be aerodynamic.
True, but going into fine particles debris a wedge shape would be beneficial.
Now most designs? Yeah, it's nuts.
Especially Romulan bird shapes. Most of the time space would be pitch black. Why would anyone care?
It could be for emergencies... like if systems fail and you have to crash land on a planet with atmosphere some aerodynamics would be handy... In a few rare cases the enterprise has landed on planets; but given the vast differences between plantation gravity/atmosphere and the fact that Star Trek has the whole gravity thing worked out anyway aerodynamics shouldn't really matter if the ship is functional.
Actually I do not completely agree. While aerodynamic is not required it is still required to have thrusters as far away of the center of mass to get some maneuverability. Doing it create ships with elongated shape that end up looking aerodynamic.
It’s about aesthetics based on specific cultures of the fiction. I think you and others are overthinking. Ships can definitely be seen on planets or areas of space near stars definitely give off light, as well other visual sensors on ships. There is no logical reason why a fictional universe as this with high technology can’t have people being creative with how their ships look. Real world logic, specifically modern Western logic of the last decade not caring about looks doesn’t apply to this fictional universe.
@@michaelblackwell7408 The Romulans create aerodynamic shapes for a different reason though. It maximizes the effectiveness of the cloaking field surrounding the ship. A cloaking device chews up a good amount of power. Creating a thin profile, aerodynamic vessel would increase efficiency.
Somebody needs to rewatch voyager, S6E7 "Dragons Teeth" the borg are actually quite old..
Somebody needs to rewatch this video around the 3-minute mark. The discrepancy between Guinan and the comments in _Dragon's Teeth_ takes up the next several minutes of exposition. "Quite old", the evidence in the Voyager episode gives them the _youngest_ estimate. Setting aside how much of the video is conjecture, your comment is still completely empty.
Actually, Jesse is right. This video only uses bits and pieces of their conversation. The Vaaduar actually tell her that the Borg started in the Delta Quadrant. This is later backed up in “Hope and Fear” when Arturus states his species had been running from the Borg for “Thousands of years”
Niles Normore not into, but along with machines. It was a race that evolved by fusing their biology with machines to stave off their extinction. What was threatening them is unknown
@@crimsondaemon906 yes, this is the same origin for cybermen in doctor who. i mean the main universe, not the parallel one. hence the best cyberman story was probably the world enough and time.
shaun humphreys that was a good episode for Doctor Who, but doesn’t mean it would work for Star Trek. Doctor Who deals with space-time as a construct (as seen on Trensalor), while Star Trek deals with it as an area. Doctor who rarely shows space, or travel through it showing this to be the case, where most of Star Trek takes place in the area of space. Star Trek is a much bigger scale. Also, the Cybermen in that episode were created from humans from Mondas in the very distant future. Star Trek doesn’t delve, or focus on time travel as much (leaving out Enterprise, which wasn’t even Star Trek as far as I’m concerned).
The Borg were indigenous to the Delta Quadrant and making them Romulan outcasts/knockoffs only serves to make a way to continue a story after running out of ideas.
Also, in Doctor Who “from a non-linear, non-subjective point-of-view, time is a big ball of wobbly-wobbly, timey-wimey stuff”. Where Star Trek approaches it from a linear, subjective perspective. As seen in “Yesterday’s Enterprise”
Romulans creating the Borg is ridiculous. They were in a sector so far from the federation and romulans that it took Q to introduce us to the Borg because they were that far away.
Agreed. imo the unknown origin of the Borg is one of the most imposing things about them. Any origin hurts them really.
It seems to me, all it takes is some totalitarian race deciding they seek their own perfection by blending with advanced intelligence, and it went out of control at some point. The accidental out come of the merging of the Nomad probe and that alien probe in old star trek for example. Except a human like species once wanted a type of immortality, or God hood through technology. Then they became a plague to the galaxy.
Yeah LOL. The Borg have been around FAR longer than the Romulans as well.
@@randybaumery5090 I always thought that if there is a real version of the Borg out there it wouldn't be the StarTrek organic/machine hybrid. It would just be an artificial intelligence seeking knowledge. It probably would never attack any new civilization it came across... Unless of course that civilization tried to interfere with it's quest for information.
@@CSProduction12 I think it all comes from Fred Saberhagan novels titled BERSERKERS.
The Borg came from a 486 CPU running Windows XP in screensaver mode (pipes), the Dell computer that was on a shuttle craft transporting historical artefacts was in collision with a Klingon warbird carrying the stolen genesis project, the resulting explosion caused a temporal anomaly sending all into the delta quadrant.
Hillarious
Bill Gates was the first Borg queen, he used to prance daintily across the catwalks while injecting newly captured species with nanobots.
Poor XP, one of the most reliable operating systems conceived.
This checks out. Theory confirmed!
im amazed somebody in a star trek comments section is actually funny and not trying to ruin something
The Borg were around thousands of years before the Romulans even spilt from the Vulcans to become thier own race. They are thought to originate from the Delta quadrant, but they may not even be from the galaxy.
if time travel to past before earth was federation early drop borg in past . just one borg dead and frozen almost borged earth couple time. that why considered bio-hazard
The voyager episode dragons teeth shows that they originate in the delta quadrant and that they have been around for a very long time.
not thoussands of years by the 15th they only had 10 systems
The Borg control a handful of systems in the Delta Quadrant. Considered a plague by the locals, the Borg have already established a collective and are already merging machine and man. Borg of this time period may resemble the somewhat de-Borgified Seven of Nin
Only having a couple of systems 900 years ago, to jumping to having assimilated as much as they have by Voyager era is understandable. The Borg just started slow until they got their A game in order.
@@peytonmac1131 Well they also don't really create technology, they simply assimilate it so obviously it would take time to build up.
There was a series of Star Trek books several years ago that did a really good job of explaining the origin of the Borg. I won't spoil it, except to say it wasn't the Romulans.
So true
Exactly, thats was also one of the best Trek novels written. And it would be weird if Picard decides to rewrite Canon when Discovery kept to it with "Control"
what was the series?
@@larsfrisk6658 Star Trek Destiny
How create borg,and how?
It's very heavily inplied in Voyager that the Borg did, in fact, originate from the Deta Quadrant, a lot of native species knew of them, and even the Vaadwaur did know when they had only assimilated "a handful of star systems"
heavily implied, you mean one passing comment in a vaaduars conversation, are you a vaaduar (Im pretending to be talaxian right now) get it? lol yeesh
@@smc3453 A lot of what is said in this video is subjective in the first place. I don't see how you can choose to see this OP's statement as any less valid then the ones made in this video. Many people directed Star Trek over the years and you can see how in many cases they would go in a different directions then what had been established all the way to downright resetting the universe. Its fun to assume that Star trek planned this end result through the whole series and while I can't outright disagree with that it is far more likely a set of coincidences that gave the writers the opportunity to write this kind of deep lore. Which is quite cool don't get me wrong. Personally I would prefer the Borg stay mysterious in some way, like in voyager we got a lot of information but they were careful to leave some mystery which is what I think Picard is going to end up doing. I think the Star trek series risks the same disenfranchisement that occurred when star wars tried to explain technically how Jedi work. While star wars is still big it only takes a moment to look up the sheer amount anger and loss of interest that was created from that choice.
The Iconians had doors to other planets, maybe kwadrants
@@TheKellprice please tell me that is not how you think Quadrants is spelled
The origin I stand by is the Star Trek Destiny trilogy. I will defend that origin to my dying day. Destiny has the best Borg origin in my opinion, I will die on this hill.
I thought the Borg began as that gas station in space from "Enterprise". After Enterprise destroys it, it fixes itself; and they had aliens stolen from other ships hidden away inside it.
thats what i thought + time ;loop
A complicated universe full of mystery is more interesting than one where everything is known and ties together in a neat package.
The starwars dilemma, eventually an i.p. will share too much information and it becomes uninteresting, just how playing through a video game twice or watching a movie a second time is way less engaging and fun.
Doctor Who showed us that when you mess with origin stories, you risk breaking the franchise.
Simon P. Williams Someone who doesn‘t even know how to spell Picard shouldn‘t comment on the qualities of Star Trek.
Simon P. Williams I think you’re completely wrong. You can’t make a tv show like it’s 1987 anymore. It won’t work. The new Trek works within the parameters set up by the older treks. Even the gore isn’t actually new. Is it different? Yes. But so was DS9. But the message from way back in the TOS days was inclusivity. So it’s always been an SJW show. Picard is fine, Discovery had a much stronger second season than first (TNG and DS9 have awful 1st seasons too)
Nah. Doctor Who broke nothing but the minds of a few fake fanbois. Personally I'm quite excited by the promise of a new direction.
Infact, dragging myself back onto topic, my personal headcanon is that The Borg are just a divergent group of Cybermen.
Simon P. Williams learn how to spell Picard correctly, then you MIGHT just qualify to comment!
@@Marorsharpe precisely. Anything less than experimenting and trying new stories and approaches is frankly an insult to Roddenberry.
He WANTED it to evolve after he was gone. Now maybe some stuff does not work. But other stuff will.
It's been 54 years of Trek so far. We will see a LOT more in the next 50, and some of it will be different.
in 2008, author David Mack wrote a trilogy called "Star Trek: Destiny" with books 1-3 (Gods of the Night, Mere Mortals and Lost Souls) that tie the "creation" of the Borg to the disappearance of the Earth starship Columbia NX-02 from the Star Trek: Enterprise timeline. i suggest you look into this trilogy for reference, it actually seem more plausible than the romulan theory.
not considered canon
@@sherm4421 It's still a better explanation than anything else. You should give it a read.
Back in the 90's I read a book that said that V'Ger created the Borg to help it assimilate the galaxy. When V'Ger left they had no one in charge. That is when the Borg Queen came about.
That makes WAY more sense than trying to say the Romulans made em.
If you played the game Star Trek legacy it had a full back story involving v’ger and an origin. If I remember it was a Vulcan who took over the collective and became the queen
The Borg found v, ger then repaired it
I hope this isn't true. Let's keep the mystique of the Borg.
if it is true THE ROMULANS MUST BE FEARED.
I think it would nicely wrap up Picard's story and the TNG-era shows.
Boring I hope it is
@@jarrodskufcagaming5203 Why, it means that the Romulans were incapable of doing anything the Borg can do, it just shows that they are pathetic.
@@Ralse ROMULANS CREATED THE BORG. YOU IDIOT
The Borg origin is already revealed in the books and has nothing to do with the Romulans!
Which books?
@@drippingwax I believe they were STNG era books (Destiny series). Had the Enterprise E in them. I don't remember individual title names. Hope this helps you and stay safe out there.
data was also resurrected proper in the books too
@@Mmmm_tea I do not suppose that you could specify which books? :)
Joeseph Lyle: memory beta, more like memory alpha. Am I right? New Visions is cannon, right? Yeah....
The Michael Myers joke is even more funny when you figure out his mask is actually James T Kirk's face.
Writer's just didn't give it any thought about a long term backstory and each time they had a chance to clear things up they just made more stories that went off road down rabbit trails! Maybe when 7 becomes queen and Picard becomes a Q maybe they'll have a good back story to clear up everything!
Species 001 would be the first assimilated the Origin species would be 000.
Yes, that is most logical.
Technically speaking the original race would be first assimilated as the tech took over...
Counting numbers start at One, not Zero. They aren't the Binars for christ's sake.
@@ericmueller6836 - Yep, plus Guina stated that species 001 was the race that used technology to increase their life span, hence became the Borg.
And the first would be vger when it returned to earth and also something to be stated the probe it sent out in that movie is similar to the Iconian one in the next gen
Past Writers: “there are things better left undefined to continue the myth and mystery”.
Current Writers: “Hey, I’m writing for some scifi show! That should look good on my resume. Ok, what’s a Romulan?”
"Past Writers: “there are things better left undefined to continue the myth and mystery”. " Sometimes its best in story telling to leave a mystery a mystery. I look at the video game Mass Effect which also dealt with an invading AI super race that wiped out all intelligent life in the galaxy every 50k years or so. It would have been better if they just ended that game by the civilizations of the galaxy beating them and just sending them packing back to dark space instead of what we got, which was just stupid.
If you think the writers of Picard don't know about Romulans and their lore in the Trek universe, I'm convinced you haven't seen even a single episode of the series and are just jumping onto a haterade bandwagon.
@@mercurydude
Well, I'm convinced you're an idiot, so there.
@@mercurydude having watched that shit storm I can say that the writers didn't give one fuck about what they where doing.. lore history characters etc got a dam fine dose of ass rape
Guina has already stated that the Borg came from race 001 in the Delta Quadrant. They were a race that added technology to themselves, becoming the Borg. Then assimilated other planets and technology. These nut job writers always want to destroy things that they did not start. Things that have big group of fans. It is because they know they can never come up with anything better.
I truly believe Q is so fond of Picard he will offer to let him join the continuum. I think Picard is his moral compass, and Q won’t be able to let him slip into oblivion.
Not likely, Q likes Picard to much to subject to to the continuum
Q died
@@Rena_Grace Picard has died many times. That doesn't seem to matter in ST.
My own thoughts were that Guinan's statement of hundreds of thousands of years does not necessarily conflict with the Vadwuar's 1,000 years as the Borg in the delta quadrant could simply be an extension of a much larger collective that arrived in from a different galaxy to assimilate this one.
Exactly. Also, the quote "evolved for hundreds of thousands of years." Isn't exactly a unique sentiment. Help humans have been around for 200,000 - 300,000 years. On top of that, hominids have been around for like 5 million years.
So you could say that humans as we are now have been Evolving for hundreds of thousands of years... Millions of years... hundreds of millions of years, if you wanna go back to life even before hominid.
@@NoESanityI think Guinan was meaning that the original civilization of the Borg was developing to the assimilaters for several hundred thousand years. And the Borg were originally just a humanoid civilization which fused with computer technology at one point.
@morgothfromangband6082 The problem is we don't know. She could be referring yo the base species or the technology. If she's referring to the development and adaption of borg tech, when do we start counting? In the purest form, borg is body modification, so would peg legs and hook hands count, or do we not start counting until they develop the hivemind? Ontop of that ST has shown time and time again that the most advanced species have a bad habit of stagnation without outside influence, so did the origional borg go hivemind, colonize a few local planets and then never consider warp drive until they found and assimilated someone with warp knowledge? There are just to many unknown unknowns for us to even guess at the known unknowns of such a vague statement.
Guinan was a stupid char.
4:09 “thousands and thousands” and “hundreds of thousands” are two very different things my friends.
it depends on how long each race knew of them.
Grasping at straws...LOL
This should probably have waited until the last episode. This didn't age well with literally the next episode.
i was thinking the same 5 mins in lol
I personally believe the borg should be left unanswered however if they do decide to elaborate, I think it would be fascinating, horrifying and poignant if humanity itself had a hand in creating them.
I agree
Watched a couple of your vids today. Liked and subbed after this one. This video essay was pure genius!!!!!
i didnt see ANY form of connection implied that romulans created the borg.
Because there isn't one, it's just some peoples flights of fancy. Also The only ones we know of capable of moving stars are the Q, and the T'kon (TNG: The Last Outpost). Guinans reference simply implies that the Borg started with species 001 evolving over time to include more and more tech into their bodies, obviously in order to improve themselves and to raise their quality of life. At some point this wish became an imperative as their interconnectivity eradicated their individuality, and they then began forcing it upon their neighbours. Species 001 may well originally have been content to stay home instead of exploring, and focus on improving themselves. In the beginning it would be slow going, and by the time of the Waud'var may still have been limited to a small area of space, but their method of expanding means sharp jumps of growth as specific technologies are acquired.
I thought they said it was the romulans who stayed in their space ships who eventually started to combine a.i. with romulan. Than they came together with the planet dwelling romulans who used clone tech to prosper and the two factions made clone a.i. romulans for soldiers.
Right?! Clickbait video.
@@302hobronco Have you seen Discovery season 2? That hints at the Control AI time traveling back to create the borg. So who knows but Alex Kurtzman seems to have a hard on for AI.
@@Radb707 time traveling ai, that's an original idea right there.
Still dosent explain why all the women are screaming at picard
Please get over it. Admirals always acted like total dochebags in StarTrek, IMHO. I always hated the interactions with them, Picard isn't that different.
@@dingomatic My question is, are there any Men left in Starfleet at this point? I'm all for equality as long BOTH sexes are treated equally and it seems like the writers went out of their way to portray an all Women Starfleet Command, which has always been co-ed from TNG and beyond.
It was that time of the month? Late menopause? They had all recently watched season 1 of Enterprise?
Women likes to scream!
Steilkurbler
One Picard is an admiral retired and saved Galaxy and universe many times. In tng we never had F bombs from Admirals to Picard. They were douches sometimes but never showed that level of disrespect and unprofessionalism.
the first borg were hybrids of Caeliar and Humen
the iconians were species 29, so i dont think that couldnt be an origin
The square shape of the borg looks like something the Romulans would create :)
You are giving a LOT of credit to writers who had an android preform a mind meld.
THANK YOU. I have been wondering about this.
Yep! The series smelt mildly of "let's get the gang all back together for one last horah".
Should we draw attention to a borg cube getting taken down by a big flower.. Uh excuse me?? Fucking why.
Synthetic life can do anything it's designed to do 🙄
spock performed a mind meld with a machine in the 1960's.
@@idrisgroken2991 I would have to assume this is due to the fact he is Vulcan ... Or are we saying as long as you study a different species in-depth enough you can then perform the same actions, coz if that right I'm gonna start studying birds coz id love to be able to fly myself, or at least study cats so I can then leap large distances, there are certain biological imperatives natural to every species that you can't just swap and change through study
Species 3783: Romulans Star Trek: Voyager screensaver - that was easy
Good catch.
It is always possible that the Romulans were forgotten, per the clip, and the real designation for them is Species 0, but yes, it's far more likely that the Borg and the Romulans have nothing in common...except assimilated Romulans.
@@jbalsle They also share the same color palette: dark grey and green, and tech is indicated with a green glow.
lmao!
Kevin Crady And they appear every Friday night - like Urkel!
@@kevincrady2831 i agree youre right. Same colours, romulans can work with borg tech. They had hybrid ships with borg tech. They have are creators of the borg
Amazing video, thank you.
I think an interesting twist would be that the blonde in the lab travels back through time as part of a team and ends up becoming the Borg queen.
Lol isn't that what happened? 🤣
@@rd6416 Yes, but I thought of it before I watched it. 🙂
Interesting theory but I do prefer the origin from the novels with the Cealiar.
The caeliar genesis of the borg is much more intresting and not convoluted how the romulans can make the borg?
I liked the back story, but I didn't like how Hernandez and co completely shut down the Borg in the 2380's. The Borg are not Windows 95!
@Chris Bailey Same actually. It would be cool to connect them somehow.
There is a star trek game for the PC that includes the origin of the Borg but it is non Canon however I do think it's very interesting and does involve a vulken
@@mr.monster91666 Yeah star trek Legacy liked it but very no canon.
I think you guys are way over estimating the current Show runners / writers' canon knowledge and commitment to coherent story telling....Kurtzman and his bunch don't think about these things nor they give a shit
Your theories on starwars ROS (regarding emperor's essence being trapped in Vader's helmet) was also more compelling than what we actually got
This ^
Yeah it's highly doubtful that they had thought this far ahead, or behind for that matter
it is clear that the current writers have ZERO understanding of what made Star Trek great.
Exploration, Scifi, meeting the unknown, has been replaced with wahmen and pockers screeching different shades of "orange-man-bad".
Let's just hope this abomination gets cancelled.
That’s big problem with fans they make theories on shows and movies those people who make theories have way to much time on there hands and not doing there job when they are clocked in who they are suppose to be working 99.9 percent time theories are proven wrong how do people feel when they are proven wrong me I would feel stupid and stop making theories but fans keep making this crap up
@@dragonball3166
1: Since you do not understand what it means, use the word "Paying Customer" instead of "Fan".
2: Fucking learn how punctuation works.
3: Learn the difference between "their", "they're" and "there"
4: Authors have ONE job: "To create an immersive, coherent story worth the time and money so the paying customers comes back and pays for more stories." _(It takes 10 times the effort to gain a fan, than it does to lose 1)_
The Romulans created the Borg during peacetime between two different states in Romulan territory. It was designed in such a way that they would assimilate and destabilize those in that quadrant allowing them to weaken and choke out a competitor. Then, what happened is that that got out of hand and they lost control over them and they assimilated the Romulans that created the Borg to weaken the area that the Romulans took over. The end result is you don't go to the Delta quadrant now. It is infested with Borg because the Romulans created them there and designed them to assimilate in that area specifically.
It's an interesting theory, but it's overwhelmingly filled with holes. Romulan technology was incredibly primitive. During the Enterprise's first encounter with the Romulans, they only had primitive atomic weapons. They later traded with the Klingons to obtain the sturdy (but still fairly primitive) Klingon D7. It was still no Constitution class, but it was better than anything the Romulans had.
In the first season of TNG, both Federation and Romulan outposts were being attacked and destroyed by an unknown aggressor. As we all know now, this was the Borg. The Romulans were just as unaware of them as the Federation was.
And the Iaconian bit is the biggest mistake. In Picard, it is expressly stated that Iaconian doorways were a more recent addition to Borg cubes. This is a technology they would have long had if they'd been assimilating Iaconian technology.
Yeah, as soon as it became clear that he was trying to say the Borg origin had anything at all to do with the Romulans, I just started chuckling to myself. Not a chance lmao.
You are wrong. It was not the Iconian Doorway tech the Borg had in Picard. It was the Spatial Trajectory technology the Borg assimilated from the Sikarians in Voyager episode. If the Borg had the Iconian Door way tech. It would be all over for every species in the galaxy. Picard had the Iconian outpost destroyed.
Being that Voyager was utterly forgettable, it's understandable.
Making Picard a member of the Q Continuum, while interesting, sounds too much like Sisko taking his place in the Celestial Temple.
and hes picard is dead lol
I mean Patrick Stewart is approaching 90. They have to close him out of the franchise and as a Q he can come back as a recasted younger version
Sisko is a Mormon?
There is one thing from Trek that didn’t get mentioned here.
Why the Romulans disappeared from Kirks era to the next Gen.
They said in the first episode back in TNG that something important kept them away. I always assumed it was the borg
You're refering to the Tomed incident which was an incident between the Romulans and the Federation which lead to the Treaty of Algernon banning the Federations use of cloaking devices.
@@Adam_Boots Which was a strange concesion by the Federation, since the Federation was victorious, and was said to have 'humiliated' the Romulans in that war. However, I believe the Klingons were in their first alliance with the Federation and fought along side of them against the Romulans, so the Klingons, who also have cloaking technology, may have insisted on this concesion by the Federation to end further war with the Romulans. It's possible that the Klingons didn't want to see the Federation gain too much advantage by defeating the Romulans, and wanted to maintain some sort of balance of powers so as not to leave the Klingons behind.
As I understand it, the Romulans fought a war against the Federation before Kirk came on the scene. Once they got that treaty, they withdrew from the galaxy to rebuild their battle fleets.
Star trek is a fantastic story line about future events. The diverse stories and theories about the origin of the characters that make up the ST universe only further enhances the appetite for more.
No one else is going to mention the Q continuum being about 200k years of overall existence and correlate it to a highly technological advanced race of potential God like beings. Like picard said "you have a power that someone more primitive lacks, you can bring down a beast from far away and to you it seems like magic" picard and Q very much share that same aspect in their relationship
Ever heard the phrase ‘clutching at straws’? Yeah, that.
you are a dumbass
“Any civilization capable to move stars must be supremely technologically advanced"...
Enter Isaac Arthur's futurism videos:
"A Shkadow thruster is an extension of the basic Dyson Swarm that allows to move a star on relatively short geological time, some million years. It does not require technology beyond what we reasonably expect to have by mid century; it is a massive engineering project, but does not require any new physics".
...
I love his videos.
Arthursday!
Moving eight stars is one thing, but an octinary system stable for hundreds of thousands of years? I don't know how much computing power the calculations would take but I think it would be a lot.
House of Suns. (stellar engineering) Revelation Space. (same thing) Is what i think of when i think of when talking about structures. But banks culture books has them all beat on computational futurism. The minds literally run society and are basically omnipotent while doing there best to seem like just good fellows. To bad banks died a couple years back any of those books as a movie would be amazing.
@@michaelklim8277 The Iconians have a servant species that can build Dyson spheres so the math and engineering could be possible for the octinary system for them as well though going by what the series has now established *****SPOILER******** The advanced synths from the past created the message not as a warning to Organics but as outreach and warning to other advanced synths
this is a good theory. i like the idea that the borg are a cycle and we are simply seeing the current cycle of them. Basically they evolve from one species, get big and dangerous, eventually somehow destroyed, and then the cycle starts again with another species. its like a "fact" of technology that eventually for some it takes over and it happens again and again. like if you want back far enough in time in the star trek universe youd see another version of the borg, maybe called something different but still basically the same idea, terrorizing the galaxy. Maybe the iconians killed the last round and then used the scraps of their tech which could have lead into your theory quiet well.
Your theory has so strong valid points, some speculatory points and some canon points which if balanced could give you this but no one knows for sure.
The V'ger theory sounds more logical and plausible, canon or not.
Are you kidding? The Borg had nothing to do with V'Ger. Voyger was found by living machines. V'Ger was more advanced than the Borg. The Borg are not living machines. They are humanoid with cybernetic parts.
@@tryagain8003
Actually, there's a Star Trek book which mentions the Borg possibly being from the same planet as V'Ger.
@@1krani V'Ger was more advanced than Borg technology. Borg are not living machines and it was stated Voyger changed by living machines.
The Borg are humanoid with cybernetics implanted. That is not living machines.
A novel by Willam Shatner says that V'ger was Borg. Like all books, it's not canon, but it could be, if it were used as a guideline for a show or movie.
@@jaysistar2711
Not that he was Borg, but that the planet of living machines that V'Ger came from might also have birthed the Borg.
What really happened on the Writers Bord:
Well Borg is green, Romulans are green dominant...
Seems plausible, lets fill it up with plot holes!
Seems to ME that a DETAILED multi (3?) episode arc treatment of Galactic Expansion from the perspective of The Romulans and The Klingons each, could provide some EXCELENT seed-basis for some extended Trek of their OWN !
I honestly think it might be a great idea for (Picard) to some how become part of the Qtinuum.
After all I imagine with (Picard) it’s possible for the Q race to become more understanding, sympathetic, and respectful towards others.
It seems Q has too much fun with Picard to just let him die.
I've seen no indication that they wish to become all that.
I'd rather the Borg Collective had simply branched off from some unknown civilization in the Delta Quadrant.
Maybe it was a race that faced an impending calamity and their best solution to survive was to all become cyborgs but the plan subsequently went awry.
That would likely make the most sense. It's Guinan's comment about the Borg that send us all into a tail spin. Ideally though that beginning out there in the Delta quadrant isn't sexy but makes the most sense. Thanks David!
That's right. Given they're based on computer programming, all it would take would be a simple error in code for the whole program to decide to take over. Removed of the ability to objectively look at their mission, they just perpetually grew. Perhaps their original mission was similar to the Federation; seek out new life and adapt its distinctiveness to their own, but it morphed into forcing the adapting of cultures, no long by choice.
I agree. What that Vardwar(spelling?) doesn't exactly contradict what Guinan said. She said they'd been developing there tech for thousands of years right? She may have meant on their own, homeworld - before venturing out in to space - thousands of years later. By the time the Vardwar encountered them, the Borg had only assimilated a few planets.
Me too. Everything in new Trek always seems centered around our tiny corner having this massive influence despite being a small part of a massive galaxy. It's annoying and lazy.
Emerge Romulan and pre-Borg, a cybernetic Delta quadrant race, altered by, discarded Romulan technology, the bringing of order to chaos, the creation of a singularity of thought.
The Borg do not assimilate those, that won't add to perfection, it would appear that, the Borg could not handle the message, the only a small number of Romulan's new.
This cube, was disconnected, when it assimilated the Romulan crew, a cube would be trying to reconnect, a rejection, would cause that cube to self destruct.
In this case, Borg would have a lot in common with Romulan, there scientist would have a good start, when analysing it.
In the novels (considered non-canon) the Caeliar were indirectly involved with the Borg creation, they were also the ones that dissolved the collective, freed the drones plus remove/repair the implant areas. This was in Voyager: Unworthy. It is cool though for the shows (Picard) to finally show the whole puzzle even if it was never the intention of the writers from the beginning in previous TV canon.
Fun to speculate I suppose, but we really don't have to give EVERYTHING an origin story. That seems to be the trend these days. I personally like the V'ger connection because it still leaves a lot to the imagination. The idea of Voyager running across a "machine planet" adds to the Borg story without giving up all its secrets. I'm good with that...
My theory. The Iconians created the borg.
Wow. They have one episode to get all this information out.
LOL, we'll give them as long as Patrick Stwewart is with the show so maybe a season 2 reveal ;)
@@ThePopcast After watching the finale it looks like that's where they are going with Season 2.
The Vger Borg connection story was in William Shatner's novel: The Return.
Yeh but it's also been retconned since voyager
@@owellwellwell2418 its not fucking retconned, picard and discovery aren't star trek.
@@justinheads5751 There's this weird Star Trek logo above the "Picard" logo.
@@briangeorgebowes that doesn't make it star trek. just like social justice warriors aren't people who fight for actual social justice.
@@justinheads5751 discovery is part of the "kelvin" time line, which was created due to the events of (nemesis I believe or was it star trek 2009 reboot.... haven't really been keeping up to date on star trek for a long time) which encompass the new films (star trek 2009 ect and discovery) picard is set in the prime timeline the same as TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY so yes it's very much star trek... though I agree with you on the fact discovery is not star trek (along with the whole kelvin timeline)
The Borg were totally organic and that is straight from the Borg Queen !
They both share the color green. Romulans, YOU ARE the father!
I think you guys are giving too much credit for story crafting to the current writers.
We can hope and dream Michael! LOL
They dont know Star Trek.
Popcast seems to be begging for recognition from the show runners. "Bros" Michael Chabon has nothing but contempt for you. But hey maybe if you suck up enough . . .
they'll probably try to make you forget all their lack of story by having a large star wars battle with thousands of ships flying around, lights, 'splosions and pew pew. you know, copy the disney model of franchise suicide.
@@tomsavage8514 Franchise "subversion of expectations", you mean? :P
I mean, in modern trek an android can somehow perform a Vulcan mind meld...so any bull shit is apparently possible.
Exactly. How does artificial intelligence perform telepathy?! I always thought the finger placement was just to help focus the meld, not the meld itself.
Spock has done mind melds with a computer, a giant cloud, a rock, and through a door. Mind melds have never made sense.
@@Roche_Furman The point is that Spock can mind meld. An android cannot.
@@bleepbloop101010101 No, the point is mind melds have made no sense. Throw in the Romulan mind probe, and the Klingon mind sifter, it's possible that androids could preform a facsimile of a mind meld if they were built to do so, though that doesn't make it any more sense than melds did in the past.
@@Roche_Furman The common factor through them all, however, was Spock? ;)
I love the Borg above all others.
I just subscribed and fascinated by you guys. I am a fan of Star Trek for over 30 years. And I am mind blown in how you guys put all this together about the boag
Romulans where a sect from vulkan... at the time of the split the borg was in the delta quadrant with the vardwar, at the time of vardwars dominance its suggest the borg had a small emipre. all this based off designations.
Thanks Koffee, in the video we explain that timeframe and break it down. The Borg appear well after the Time of Awakening. Let us know if it make more sense the way we laid it out. Thanks for the comment!
Your explanation makes zero sense and is full of made-up nonsense...no, this theory has no legs!
@@ThePopcast from other chanels on trek ancient civs they mentioned there might have been earlier proto borgs
@@TheJarric the borg didn't have prototypes, its a augmented race originally, from which race we don't know, records from before the vardwar purge are gone, borgs are fragmented too (didn't have tech to do memory uploads at deep space distances imo just local systems- 7 of 9 just said it was fragmented) the whole borg ethos is perfection.... so that started from a normal race using augments more and more over time then that quest for perfection lead them to assimilating races/culture/tech.
@@koffee3816 not prototypes per se more like presessors something like borg no idea if they were called borg
lol Rich Evans from redlettermedia already called this back in January
Kent actually a few of us did. The problem was no one could find a realistic explanation for how and it took a couple months to pull it all together. But yes you are right, there were a few of us that had an Aha moment back in January. great comment!
Kent Campbell Very cool!
I know who that is....I know it and i clapped when I read your comment.
I posted the suggestion over on the International Skeptics Forum on Feb 2nd right after watching the second episode.
perhaps the romulans woke the borg up, but create them? pffshaw
Captain James T. Kirk fathered the Borg! He made love to an alien green skinned girl, then abandoned her after stealing her heart. So she made a kirk cyborg replacement using bits of kirks dna combined with forbidden robot technology. She then wanted a baby and Kirk-Bot worked on the nano tech to make it happen, and finally they had a child who became the first borg queen. She then flew through an unstable wormhole while reversing polarity on the plasma thrusters to end up in a place long ago and far, far away.
I’m thinking the writers created the Borg. “We need some bad ass villains!”
The only version of the origin of the Borg I like is the book trilogy of the cealiar
how did it happen?
Agreed.
Quality video, great connections highlighted, fantastic theory. 👍
While you guys dug deep into the history of star trek, you probably forgot the science side of it. By evolving for thousands of thousands of years, the Borg may be using a different time scale. Don't forget, a cycle (in Tron) is a millisecond (or something like that) in our world, but it's like an hour or a day in the Grid. Borg is based on cyberware, maybe a year for them is only a day for us.
Another possibility is, remember interstellar? A hour on a planet near a black hole is 7 years on earth. God knows what kind of adventures the Borg had that could dramatically changed their time dilation.
I often found myself amazed by how much more mind-blowing science is compared to the craziest sci-fi.
That was pretty great! Thanks! 🖖🏼
There is one game by Simon and Schuster based on Voyager. In that game the Borg very specifically indicated that Earth was species 005. Also a short series of books by David very specifically stated that there was a race of nano-probes that came together and formed bipedal creatures. Their star was destroyed leaving a blue nebula seen in Star Trek undiscovered country. Species 1 was from that star. 2-4 were from the USS Columbia, if memory serves me right NX-02. due to the fact that most of the crew were human the Borg only got 1 of each race. The nano probes were created by Iconia, with an unstable slipstream escape path from the destroyed star each light year traveled was one year into the past. When a city ship crashed on a planet in the delta quadrant the power plant was damaged. There are some of the nano probes still independent and remember their beginning. They were in the next generation episode where Montgomery Scott was found. They prefer secrecy and privacy, thus chose never to reveal themselves to Picard. The queen that we see in all the movies was human because she is the first female species 005 captured and assimilated.
Humans are species 5618. Almost all Alpha and Beta quadrant species are designated 1000 or above (the Ferengi are the exception being species 180.
@Tickled Eggz you need to get the game based on Voyager the series, a Star Trek authorized and recorded game. It very specifically stated that the human race was species 005. Do your research, I played the game. Simon and Schuster gaming was an officially recognized company that was only allowed to make a Star Trek game if the story went with Mr. Roddenberry and his direct storytelling. Thus, the idea that you have saying humans are in the 1000s is wrong. Memory alpha is a public storyline, NOT Star Trek certified.
The bit with the Iconians also lines up with STO, which may not be exactly canon, but it kind of explains why they recognised Sela as a Romulan
The Borg have a species designation for the Iconians (Species 29), with a number that low, and with the borg being "hundreds of ceturies" old (100 centuries is 10,000 years btw) its much more likely that the borg assimilated ther Iconians while every other species was still bashing rocks together to make fire. Honestly this video reaches enough without the comments trying to help patch the holes in this absolute sieve of a theory.
This would explain why Romulans have advanced applications of borg tech with their ships.
Nice video. Thank you.
***spoiler alert***
The Borg were actually created by the Packleds while on a mission to find things. Things to make them go.
True story.
LOL
Lmao that's messed up
That is funny.
We are Pakleds. Our ship is the Mondor. It is broken.
The major discrepancy with that logic is that the Borg have a very high Species designation for Romulans. If they were the creators of Borg, they should be the first or atleast a smaller designation.
What's the Romulan's Number? I'm sorry. I also missed that.
@@topher7458 Species 3783 for Romulans and Species 3259 for Vulcans. List of Species designations by borg can be found at the following link. memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Borg_species_designations
Which could be some kind of hickup in the designation numbers
Think about the Vaadwaur, Seven mentions the Borg are not aware of the Vaadwaur because the collective memory does not go that far back.
For Romulans there could be the same problem, so Romulans can easy be Species No.1 and No.3783 just because there is no collective memory which species actually was No.1
@@JoducusKwak That makes sense.
Why is the ferengi a los number?
(Species 180)
Idk if the game is canon but I like that 7o9 created "The Cooperative" which is essentially a collective but only for Borgs who agree to join willingly or ppl who agree to become Borgs willingly (usually ppl with health conditions)
I have an amazing origin story for the Borg! I've been tweaking it for 20+ years.
what about incorporating the cell creatures that Spock and Kirk run across in TOS as they are similar to Borg and could have been what created the Borg. As the assimilate humans to do their will so if they run across a cyborg species and give them a singular consciousness as the did in TOS. Likewise Spock could not detect them as life forms as they were a cell of a larger collective life, thus the cyborg would not recognize them as life until it was to late. Just a thought.
Picard reminded me so much of the larger story arc of Mass Effect
And Mass Effect was inspired by Star Trek so it all comes full circle.
Having watched Pickard to it's completion, the origin of the Borg has absolutely" NOTHING "to do with the Romulans!
The Origins of the Borg are explained in the Destiny novels.
It's kinda funny. My mom and I were watching episode 3 or 4 of Picard, right around the time where they were explaining just how anti-robot the Romulans were, my first thought was "Oh my god, are they going to midichlorian the borg and say that the romulans made them or something?"
The Borg being cyborgs, may follow a kind of Moore's Law, thus the rate of assimilation may not have been linear, and explain the longer gestation period and slow assimilation rates in the beginning. Also, totally unhelpfully, which 2 races are plasma weapon races in sto :-)
I just imagined the shear horror of a borg assimilated Founder.
_A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away..._
This would be a perfect explanation and union.
New from Quentin Tarantino: The Cenobites vs. The Borg. Star Trek is already in hell....
Is no one going to mention that fact that in Episode 6, Picard uses a transportation gateway on the borg cube to make his escape - a gateway almost exactly like the the technology found on the Iconian home world in NG?
It's explained in the series that it's the same technology used by the Sikarians and the Borg had assimilated them. Voyager encountered the Sikarians in the season one episode Prime Factors.
From a filmmaking perspective, that would explain the green cast when dealing with both the Romulans and Borg.
There's a book that the borgs made a deal with romulans also at the end of season 1 of tng the Borg destroyed and took the neutral zones tech they probaly ran into romulans 3 the book I was talking about the romulans made a deal with the borg after going to the nexus to dig up James t kirk and in star trek 09 we see nero with borg technology destroying Vulcan in the Kelvin timeline and in picard that all matches up
Your version of this was much better than theirs unfortunately.
There’s a big problem with this theory. In that in Picard it was reveled that the message was was not left for organics but for synthetics. Which means that it would have been created by the alliance of advanced homicidal artificial lifeforms that are revealed to exist in the show. Even if iconians were involved they could not have possibly have left that message, as it would not make since to leave a message for the same kind of life that supposedly destroyed them, nor would it make sense to leave plans for way to contact their own destroyers.
TheGardian6 yeah this makes now sense
Iconians where not destroyed by AI tho, they were destroyed by an alliance of races that want to steal their more advanced technology, because the iconians would not share it because of their version of a prime directive
I’m more interested to know what those machines were that came through the portal. The Reapers?
They are the guys that built V Ger.
That's one way of putting it, friend.
Fascinating!
I seem to remember an episode of "Enterprise" where there was an alien mobile repair platform that they needed to use but the catch was that a crew member would have be get added to the control unit. That control unit held several other people from many different species all connected in a hive type mind. The Enterprise NX-01 rescued the crewman ( the pilot, sorry don't remember his name) and then blasted the station into hundreds of pieces. After the Enterprise flew away there was a short clip at the very end that showed that station pulling itself back together and repairing the damage, just like a Borg cube does. To me THAT was a nod to the origin of the Borg. To bad the people making Picard don't know their Star Trek lore.
Unless it was intended to be a nod to the Borg, it might simply have meant that it had a self-repairing function. If anything, it might logically follow that the Borg might have assimilated a similar platform (or a crew from one of the platforms) and gained the knowledge and tech that way. :)
its from voyager ,pilot is tom paris
EDIT: it seems im mistaken its from Enerprise (the one with Archer)
@@sigmacademy Perhaps you are right. I was looking for the clip I was thinking of when I came across a different one from an episode that I had forgotten about.
They had found some BORG at the north pole of Earth from the "First Contact" movie who had reanimated and Archer had to destroy the ship they had stolen. This is the closing epilogue of that episode.
czcams.com/video/vQAxxEBDh-8/video.html
@@DarkDiscipleAA I think the one they are referring to is from Enterprise. They took the pilot and left a dead clone. They were using people's mind for processing. They blew it up and left. Then it started to repair itself.
Agree, it is first shown in Enterprise as an entry to be used in ST canon. It hasn't been referenced since but its signature is all over the ENT episode and ending.
Guinan's and the Vaadwaur's years could be the same length of time.
When mentioning time people forget that Days and years are different on other planets. On Neptune a day is about 16 hours long and a year about 165 Earth years (60,190 Earth days). If a Neptunian said 2 yare and it translated to 2 years we would automatically think of it being 24 months or 730 twenty four hour days when the Neptunian meant 330 Earth years or 120,380 Earth days, because a translator would not give you all the details as it would make things take longer. As most planets years will have different lengths which means that Guinan's and the Vaadwaur's years could be the same length of time though they sound different.
yeah but remember this info is all handled through the ship's universal translator, so they could be using a different time unit which the translator converts along with the number.
Guinan just said that the Borg have existed for thousands and thousands of years, not that they've roamed the galaxy for thousands and thousands of years. They might have existed on their home planet (which they don't even remember nowadays) with no means of space travel until some unlucky species tried to make first contact or tried to raid this seemingly dead world and got assimilated.
The Vaadwaur's timescale was based on Voyager finding them, not on the Vaadwaur calendar. The Vaadwuar homeworld was attacked specifically in 1484 AD. At the time the Vaadwaur were active, they were a dominant military power over a large swath of the Delta Quadrant because of their knowledge of Underspace. The Borg were "minor" at the time from the perspective of the Vaadwaur, but they were specifically mentioned as having conquered other systems at the same time.
We also know that the Borg did not threaten the El-Aurians when Guinan was on Earth in the 19th century, 400 years after the Vaadwar were active, but assimilated the El-Aurians, scattering them in the 22nd century. The two stories don't really conflict as Guinan isn't calling them a threat for thousands of centuries, she only says that they developed for that long, which the Borg Queen also alludes to.
Let's not forget, the "V'Ger" theory is still a more plausible source for 1 reason: Star Trek: First Contact film. When both the Borg and some crew of the Enterprise were sent back in time to the first "warp" trial, that lead to the contact to the Vulcans. Not all Borg, (if I recall), were destroyed from that ending fight. And thus, survive to "re-begin" population/race.
I feel like their origin should remain a mystery, or at least be cooler than the Romulans.
When a fictional storyline is being explained like a real historical story. Awesome!
Fictional?
👍
Rich Evans DID predict this, while speculating what new stupid shit they’d cook up for the romulan’s “secret”. I agree that this is corny
toltecnightmare I figured they would start to enslave other species using Borg assimilation technology and have in the end the darker romulan empire with more manpower than the Borg wage war against the rest of the beta and alpha quadrant with the romulans returning to their illusive beginnings arguably a better thing to happen than I suppose what was decided to happen
What a great idea I love it