There is No Sonic Canon, and That Can be Okay
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- čas přidán 15. 03. 2024
- / pariah695
ko-fi.com/pariah695
Sorry about the bit at the beginning. If you've been watching for a while, you know I hate doing stuff like that. But every so often, it's good to mention these things. Otherwise people might not even know. Won't be a regular thing, don't worry.
Anyway, here's a story. I was trying to make a Sonic timeline video. But I abandoned it because making a Sonic timeline, no matter how you want to interpret things, is completely impossible. And that was the point I was trying to make with that video. But even then, I still couldn't make a timeline I was satisfied with because it's that bad. But that experience is what led to this video.
I've been planning this for a while, as many know. But that timeline video made me rethink how I feel about the idea of canon and continuity in Sonic. And I think it made this video much better, more positive and constructive than it would have been otherwise.
I know some are going to ask about the old video. But I'm sorry. I'm not posting a link to it. Not only am I not happy with my conduct in the video, but I feel this video does a far better job of saying everything that video was trying to say and more. - Hry
It's not that i want cannon, it's that they gave me cannon and then took it away, that hurts man
They never took it away they just made stories where some characters aren’t used
And then when the characters do show up it's like they weren't in the prior games to begin with, see what i mean?
But he never did in the 90s (Except Japan). They just reconnected 90% and made a new universe. Explained only now why is it like that.
Classic sonic also had it's own lore, which was then majorly shifted in the adventure era to be a seperate thing, which ALSO had lore inconsistencies due to the 8bit ports
when? when was canon ever senseful? until Adventure 2? no, it was the characters who were (somewhat) coerent, at least in personality, it was the tone who was all believable in one universe, not the actual stories, and that was ok, yes it may not make sense but at least you could recognize the characters we all loved, and it was perfect to have flexibility, a game could be set in a storybook and another in space, yet the adventures felt right cause Sonic and the tone was always similar, that gave them so much creative freedom, each game could be about a different topic without ruining the characters, and yet they did the Colors thing, since then Sonic has been a joke, nothing more.
The way I always saw it is, Sonic team writes standalone stories. They fit them into a canon and acknowledge continuity when its coinvent to the game or for fanservice. The lore team only exists for band-aid explanations.
That's how I see it too. It's like a cycle of Sonic Team doing whatever feels cool to them or right for the brand in that moment and then it's up to the lore team and fans to try and make it make sense or at least as much sense as Sonic continuity can make.
That is definitely the case nowadays, but at least for a short time, Adventure through Shadow you could tell they were making a serious attempt at real world-building
Gemeral was just out for cigarettes that one game, dont worry about, he'll be back soon.
Oh I think Chocola went with him. He wanted to get some milk. I'm sure they both will be back any minute.
@@castform7Lol Literally said they were getting milk when he brought it up
The canon issue with Amy's portrayal between "Classic" and "Modern" eras is that once she moved to Station Square she couldn't afford her gym membership anymore cuz the rent there is steep. You gotta read between the lines, man.
Wait a minute, how does Amy pay rent?
You know in Sonic Battle Amy does complain about getting out of shape. 😂
@@technicallyinept2120 I was actually thinking about Battle when I saw OPs comment. Amy even takes up boxercise.
@@technicallyinept2120e6's gonna have a field day butting heads with this.
@@charmyzard Ngl, I have no idea what that is
Dude REALLY does not want to make the goddman Lost World video and I will never blame him for it, that game made me bore to death
Lost World is the last Sonic game I bought day of release. It made me realize Generations was a fluke and I shouldn't trust them as much going forward.
@@BlackTheBerserker hey...
Generations is still good
@GUNUFofficial it is very good. But it was a fluke. We were lucky we got it. Much more likely to never get a game like that.
I mean, dude, can you blame him? If I was in his shoes and I had to play Lost World 3ds, I'd probably take a 2 year break or something. That game is awful lol.
Getting YT traction and Patreon subs for it though.
"There is No Sonic Canon, and That Can be Okay"
- Professor Pickle 2008
14:52
The same reason why he’s in a car. The race doesn’t involve being on foot.
I like how people make their own canon out of Sonic. It's really fun to try and work everything out even if you have to make giant leaps in logic to connect certain pieces.
I think it's better to not connect certain pieces, and instead just make our own sonic fiction or fan fiction.
This is also my perspective.
@@crimsonzone8984 That's what I do. Whenever there's something that's not explained in the "canon", make something up. The thought process I use is that as long as it makes a general amount of sense, I say it's fine. An example of this is in Sonic Advance 2 where Cream has her own ending that features Vanilla being saved. I just explain this with "oh, Sonic goes through the zone and takes out most of the robots and Cream goes through a bit after". If series heads can spew out whatever nonsense they want about questions they haven't thought about and have it cemented as canon, so can I with stuff I do try to think about.
I have my own interpretation of the franchise and it's a blast to reorganize and add connecting threads to the world !
A creative exercise for sure. It just takes a really long time when you're not focusing on specific event, instead rewriting the whole thing.
Is anyone gonna talk about how the "Everything is canon" thing came from a quote tweet of the Puyo Puyo Twitter announcing Sonic being playable in Puyo Puyo Tetris 2?
"E-even Sonichu and CWCville?"
"Everything."
I could've sworn that tweet existed before PPT2 got its first wave of DLC
Yes, Sonic and the sega crossover games are canon.
Maybe that was the first time in a game it was mentioned. But I could of sworn the social media team was pushing that mindset for much longer. Way back when I watched their livestreams, that was something that would get brought up every other livestream and I could have sworn that went even beyond the Puyo Puyo Tetris 2 thing.
Sonic is a brand IP, and Sega will use him however they see fit with their “everything is Canon” approach. Mario has that luxury of “cloud canon” due to how the IP handles it for almost its entire existence. Sonic fumbled that bag several times and now fans are stuck with this. So all I can say is enjoy what you like, this will be one long decade.
What exactly is "Cloud Canon"? Just so I have the correct understanding. Is that a legit phrase or did you come up with it yourself (I tried looking it up but I couldn't find it)?
@@MarzOnline92 Essentially it’s like an unspoken understanding of the mythos regarding what’s the core of the universe set up. Like you understand what the characters are, the theming, rules and whatnot. But the core of the canon is just strong enough in which even though you do different things like Paper Mario, Luigi’s Mansion and even Mario Party; you still understand what the core canon is. In Mario’s case it’s not as ‘grandiose’ as what Sonic attempts, but rather knows how much to cross that line.
Yep, sonic decided to have a story that follows itself until the creatives thought eh? F♤ck that I don't give a sh#t
@@demetriusnp49 Ah as I thought. Great term. That's exactly what is indeed missing from the franchise that others seem to have a much better grasp on. But I guess that's just another thing that makes Sonic "unique" I guess. Maybe if they decide to do a proper soft reboot of the franchise (starting with slight revisal of SA1, in my opinion), things could be more concrete. Bets or on that not happening anytime soon, though. Oh well. 😮💨🤷♂️
@MarzOnline92 Broadstrokes. Mario is always an outsider to the Mushroom Kingdom, Bowser is always trying to force Peach into marriage, etc. Even when all the rest of the world shfts every game.
Again, Sega and Sonic team's current approach to trying to make a cohesive universe just seems like one big case of trying to please everybody, yet paradoxically end up pleasing no one.
The thing is, Sonic human characters can be drawn now. Maria can be drawn in Sonic Channel art, Elise can, and Sage technically counts as a human. Just in new modern Puyo Puyo esque art styles. Then i don't know why the IDW comics doesn't yet incorporate human characters. I hope they appeal I guess lol
They have always existed, it’s just that they don’t find reasons to shove characters left and right like gemerl and marine for example.
@@kilometersperminute4113 yeah... it just would be cool if they were included in more something lol. Gemerl and Marine are cool, they should get merch sometimes
This is almost as nonsensical as trying to establish an all-encompassing official canon for the Legend of Zelda games...
I'm not as much into Zelda as Sonic, but it really is. At least, Zelda can deflect by using different Links and Zeldas separated by centuries and timelines but Nintendo can't make up their mind.
@ChaosAngelZero TotK shows that they're trying to reboot the franchise around Skyward Sword. The Wilds games don't have any solid connection to the older games and there have been arguments saying it's in a new universe set after SS, after Wind Waker, after the SNES to NES games, after Twilight Princess, after all at once.
15:29
It's even funnier when you remember these two games came out within a year of eachother
If there's a story with lore and character depth, there has to be a canon. The games can't have ambitious stories if there isn't a canon to adhere to. If there is no canon, then the games' individual visions and stories are completely meaningless. If the vision of a game conflicts with previously established games, then there is a problem and that vision can not fit.
What about one shot stories? there is only one Cave Story for example, and that game has a great story.
I genuinely feel sorry for the fans who desperately want a cohesive canon and the "lore team" who are kind of forced to make narrative sense of an IP that the publishers clearly don't give a shit about.
It's like the worst parts of ongoing comics where the writers clearly have a story they wanna tell but are forced to deal with the decisions of their publishers and previous writers.
The worst part is that the writers are always the scapegoats. Fans always attack the writers for dumbass decisions because they can not attack the publishers who force them to make those decisions in the first place.
Shit sucks man.
ive neither read the archie comics nor idw comics but damn, some of the shit I've seen about ian flynn CANNOT be true nor justified. i seen ppl call him a hack writer, incompetent about sonic lore, and even saying the idw comics are bad bc they are "western-minded", whatever that means. i simply refuse to believe this dude is that bad when the worst thing i probably know about him is that he likes to takes things a bit more dark and serious in his stories, which is a very subjective topic.
sega team gets their licks but the writing team(s) get their guillotines while the people who ultimately decide the series' image seem to leave the arena unscathed.
@@roseaphile absolutley hilarious that people call flinn those things when Mr. "I rewrote a holocaust speech to be about Sonic characters" Penders is all of them.
I don't understand why twitter users shit on Flynn. He made the best Sonic comics....
The Lore Team is basically the secondary brand manager that has to deal with the questions and problems that the executives caused because of corporate shenanigans
Is Sonic Team operating the franchise on loose canon really corporate shenanigans
The existence of a lore team is more corporate when its job is feeding people bullshit just to milk off Sonic “lore”
can't blame the people in spagonia disappearing have you seen how good the food looks in unleashed? would make gordon ramsey blush
Do the executives just forget that the main bad guy IS a human? Or they, like some fans, are just going to say some bullshit like "Eggman considers himself above humans".
Maybe Eggman is secretly a furry, too.
Eggman is a Flicky inside of a robot that is only shaped to look like a rotund human. Sorry for spoiling the reboot.
"Eggman considers himself above humans"
And he proves that by... living among animals. Wow even that is stupid lol.
@@Neawn-by5pi Yeah
@@Neawn-by5pihe enslaves them...
The way you were talking about thinking of characters as "toys" that the writers pick up and do whatever they want with just made me think sonic stories are basically "official fanfiction", and I'm tickled at that idea
And yet, people wanna act as if Frontier's story fixes the continuity.
That continuity shit was dropped after Sonic 06
In Murder of Sonic the Hedgehog, why is Cream not celebrating Amy's birthday with everyone? You'd think, as a member of Team Rose, she would be one of the most important characters to put in. But Cream is just not as popular as Shadow and he has more brand recognition so he was put in even though that doesn't really make sense for his character. Branding makes all the decisions.
It is a mix of branding and logistics. I imagine they don't want her anywhere near a dead body on some level and think she wouldn't serve much of a niche during the mystery. Tails is already the detective, you are already playing as someone who is naive.
If they did write more of Sonic's friends in, it would create a big scope problem or make the additional ones flatter.
If it was a short comic rather than a 2 hour visual novel, it doesn't matter since characters stand around doing nothing all the time in short scenes or a cutscene.
none of the kid characters besides tails were in murder, espio and vector got in despite charmy not being in for example
Cause she’s 6 and not mature enough like Charmy
When the game released they gave the explanation they didn't wanted Cream in the game because of the subject of murder mystery. However, Cream was a featured playable character in Dream Team shortly after, so I imagine there might be some brand interest in bringing her back.
For those who say cream was too young to be in the grown up train or whatever but tails gets a pass b'cuz he's grown up at heart, I just gotta let you guys know about him cowering in fear in sonic unleashed with the dark gaia minions and that I've met people claiming that tails is just a cub and is afraid of monsters and so it's alright for him to be going "sonic, help me!" on that situation. CuZ hE'S yOuNg AnD iNcApAbLe EvEn If He'S gOt A bIg BrAiN fOr A lItTlE fOx BoY. I even read some comments saying something like:
"fans: why was tails a coward in forces?
Sega/sonic team/frontiers: he is just a baby."
I can't remember the details but you get what gettin' at.
The Japanese "Sonic Channel" official website has character profiles, and stories, that present a clear vision of a single, unified, overarching canon for each character and the world of Sonic as a whole. What's presented there is the same information that will be reiterated for each individual game's material. Pretty much every manual for characters like Amy, Knuckles, Shadow, etc, will say the exact same information every single time. Amy is an energetic girl who loves Sonic and fortune telling, Knuckles is Sonic's friendly rival who guards the Master Emerald and envies Sonic's freedom, Shadow is the dark incarnation of Sonic who is identical to him in appearance and abilities, etc. The artwork and stories that Sonic Channel features on its site each month convey the "World of Sonic". There IS an established canon, there IS a singular vision for Sonic the Hedgehog as a whole. Saying that there isn't one, or that the creatives don't care for it at all, is being disingenuous to the efforts of Sonic Team to maintain and build upon that canon.
What happens is brand mandates that stem from external factors. There is a divide between Sonic Team themselves and Sega of Japan. When a game like Sonic '06 fails and Unleashed gets mixed reception, a brand mandated decision is to avoid featuring human characters out of a misplaced belief that introducing them harmed the brand. There have been attempts to create "canon" justifications by saying that "Sonic's World and the Human World were different" for a short while, but contradictions with previously established lore led to that being backtracked and reverted to the original status quo. G.U.N still exists, the events of '06 still happened with the time reset and everything, Amy's SA1 arc and Tails' SA1 arc still happened. That has not changed. It should also be noted that Amy Rose was already strong and capable in Sonic the Fighters, and Sonic Adventure 1 itself. The canon story for Amy, as described on Sonic Channel, is that those classic games depicted her growing stronger _over time_, until Sonic Adventure which served as the major turning point. So her appearance in Superstars does not change that canon story, even that game describes Amy as still being in the process of growing and discovering her own capabilities.
Yes, specifications of her exact speed and spin-potential has been adjusted, but that's always been a confusing contradictory thing anyway. Sonic Advance 1, she doesn't spin at all, but the very next game, Sonic Advance 2, gives her the Boost Mode and a Spin Jump and roll like everybody else, and the same applies to SA1 vs her appearance in SA2's 2-player mode. From Heroes-onward, Amy is established as a Speed-type who plays similarly to Sonic, and that has become the "brand" for how she's depicted. So when Origins and Superstars are being developed, and Amy is introduced as a playable character in those games, the mechanics of those classic games and the current brand image of Amy's character lead to the decision that a core charater like Amy MUST share the same Spin Dash mechanics as the other characters. The fact that Sonic the Fighters already exists as a game that showcases Amy as a strong, capable fighter who _could_ go all the way up to the Death Egg II ensures that this slight modification of her exact skillset doesn't actually change the character arc she progressed through from CD to SA1 and Heroes.
When it comes to Shadow and "Chaos Control", it's a case of brand image contradicting itself. Shadow the Hedgehog is identical to Sonic, he shares the same speed and abilities, but he can also use "Chaos Control" by warping time and space using a Chaos Emerald's power. That is the core idea and identity of Shadow. But what do you do when you want Shadow to be playable in a game, and NOT simply be a copy of Sonic's moveset? Well, you lean into Chaos Control. Give him Chaos Spear, Chaos Blast, Chaos Snap, Chaos Boost, etc. That's what differents Shadow's skillset from Sonic's. This is where the contradiction in what Chaos Control needs comes from, because they don't always want Shadow to just be a copy of Sonic's moveset in-game when he's KNOWN for using "Chaos Control". It's part of Shadow's identity to use Chaos Control, and it's what separates him from Sonic even though Sonic has the exact same ability but "better", so they have to lean into that to give Shadow that distinction.
Overall, from my understanding, the Sonic Canon is not as problematic as you make it out to be. There are small cases of inconsistencies that can crop up, but those are more like small details slipping through the cracks that the creatives might not have been fully aware of (since different people may be developing different games' stories at different times), or its something that inherently comes from brand mandated decisions or other areas that are unavoidable. In the end, you can not have meaningful characters and stories without a "canon", that's just an impossibility. And this franchise decided a long time ago that it wanted characters and lore and epic, cool stories. Thus, there has to be a Sonic canon, and Sonic Team does make efforts to maintain that canon. They may not always be the best at it, and some weird decisions may be made here and there. But to completely give up on there ever being a meaningful canon to Sonic the Hedgehog *in general*, is simply disingenuous and inaccurate.
Knuckles' core identity centers around being Sonic's Rival. This is WHY he is the Guardian of the Master Emerald, but that idea creates an issue where what they WANT is to have Knuckles contrast Sonic's freedom by being bound to duty, but that very theme conflicts with Knuckles' status as a core character who is part of the main group of characters that'd show up with Sonic in many adventures. They always say that Knuckles is the Guardian, but they have trouble showing the intended vision of the idea due to the conflict of Knuckles having to be a main character AND be stuck in one place to oppose Sonic's lifestyle. Knuckles is the Anti-Sonic who serves as the antithesis of everything Sonic stands for, and that is Knuckles' role as a core character, but this contradicts itself because the idea is that Sonic is a free spirit while Knuckles is rooted in place but that makes it impossible to have both characters be around each other on a regular basis without sacrificing one or the other. But that contradiction is a writing issue primarily, as Sonic Frontiers & Superstars DO make the effort to explain and correct it by showing that Knuckles is still focused on being a Guardian, and there's a specific reason why he's called away on this adventure with Sonic but he's still going to go straight back home afterwards.
Sonic the Hedgehog does have an overarching canon and internal consistency. These characters are not simply "toys", they each have a specific vision that is intended for them overall.
I find it really hard to believe that the moon being whole again is an instance of inconsistency "slipping through the cracks". If every Sonic fan noticed that inconsistency, then there is simply no way the creatives behind the games didn't notice it as well if they did know the story of SA2. It only makes sense when you consider the possibility that the canon is loose enough to allow for a retcon where the moon is just whole, no explanation needed. They exercised creative freedom to not ruin cool set pieces that would not been as impactful if they sticked to the canon entirely.
The title of the video is somewhat misleading because Pariah doesn't quite argue that there is no canon at all, it's just that the canon is very loose and not quite as singular and unified as Sega tries to make it appear -- so you might as well just say that there is no canon, it can change depending on what the creators of Sonic want Sonic to be at that particular moment. The fact that Knuckles *has* to be in games as a Sonic "buddy" or a playable character is the proof of that. Sure, they acknowledged the fact that he's supposed to guard the Master Emerald by a couple of in-game phrases, but when they just use Knuckles time and time again without giving justifications as to why he's not on Angel Island, it gives off a vibe of a partner who keeps sending you "i still love u" letters but never actually shows up, and you were being told that they still care about you and you shouldn't feel like they're just toying with your feelings. In a canon-first game series, there would be a story arc in-game where Knuckles is given a singular, concrete reason as to how is he able to leave his duty to travel around the world with Sonic -- and *then* you'd be able to use Knuckles for all gameplay purposes you'd ever wanted. Instead, they prompted to just use Knuckles in gameplay anyway without any proper backstory and put some small lines in the game of "knowing smile" kind to let people know that they're at least aware of it -- something that would make sense for a gameplay-first game. If there is canon for Sonic, it is a poorly mistreated one because other games that do care about continuity, lore and canonicity straight up do not have such glaring problems as can be seen with Sonic. (No work is perfect, but I would still say that, for example, Mass Effect is more coherent (even with 3) than Sonic.)
However, you did bring up a very excellent point about who's to blame for this. Pariah always says that it's Sonic Team who calls what gets in the game and what doesn't, but I rarely hear him mentioning anything about Sega meddling with the creative process. That, however, could explain a lot of things regarding the treatment of Sonic canon that you have described, even mine (time constraints wouldn't allow that Knux arc to happen, for example). In fact, a possible evidence for this is the fact that Japanese script for English-first-written games completely changes the personalities of characters to be more fitting of the original vision of Sonic. Was it because Sonic Team wanted those scripts to be different, or was it because Sega mandated the games to be written by western scriptwriters first against ST's wishes? That's a very good question, and I'm not sure why Pariah is so sure that it's Sonic Team's fault. I wonder if he would clarify that point with evidence in one of his future videos.
Also, a question. Is Sonic Channel explicitly maintained by Sonic Team staff, or just by Sega? It could be the case that Sonic Channel is just as "official" as the "lore team" -- just because it has Sega branding doesn't necessarily mean that they represent the vision that the actual team behind the game wants to achieve (though it being a JP site gives it more credibility). Again, I don't know any better about who runs the resource, so if you know, please let us know ^^'
@@_dot_tea2774 From what I understand, Sonic Channel is run by Sonic Team members.
sounds like cope I'm sorry
I think Pariah said on one stream he doesn't read the Sonic Channel, or much of side media of Sonic, besides the japanese manuals.
@@_dot_tea2774 I totally agree. The moon situation alone is not something that should happen in a canon focused game. And beyond character stuff there are multiple events throughout the series that heavily contradict each other and require headcanon to work. It's one thing to have a character bio across all games and it's another to actually have the games reflect that bio. If Chaos Control can flip flop between needing a Chaos Emerald or Shadow just being himself, that is a gameplay-first decision through and through. I do also wonder how much weight SEGA has in this type of stuff. We don't really know so I guess it's very easy to point blame on Sonic Team since they make the Sonic games and whatever happens in the story probably has to go through at least them.
I don't mind SEGA not wanting to care about canon. I don't mind them wanting to SpongeBob the series. That's cool! I just wish they'd stop making up lies and trying to bandaid the issue. They gave us canon, then took it away, and is now trying to give it back like reconstructed pieces of meat.
It's like Mario where each game and its story is separate from each other cause if you tried to put them as one big cannon it would make no sense. 🤷
@@b0xE_ Exactly. Afaik Mario games don't even try to stick to a canon. Most, if not, all the games are their own mini stories. Any sequel is just an iteration on the same formula, but usually better, instead of being a continuation of the previous game. Examples being the SMB series, NSMB, The two Galaxy games, Luigi's Mansion games, etc. etc.
I hate it cause it's like they're trying to make me look stupid for asking questions and noticing things that do not add up.
"Where are the humans? They live on continents we haven't gone to in a while. What was that? We went to Spagonia and there were no people shown? Well it's tea time so *every single person in this city* has to stay inside."
"Is Classic Sonic from another dimension? Of course not silly. He's from the past? Oh? We made a game and comics that support the idea of Classic Sonic being from another dimension. Uuuuuuuuh....no we didn't. Oh, you're wondering where the classic characters are if Sonic is from the past. Oh they're on their own adventures and we just haven't seen them. Even in a global crisis like a war."
Tails Tube and interviews can say whatever they want. What they can't do is go back in time and make sure the games under questioning or anything in the future follow this stuff that they've said. It's why I make up my own mind about events in the franchise because I'm tired of listening to people who want to convince you that everything in this series is cohesive.
Hey Pariah! I only want to address just one thing, the use of Chaos Control. During SA2 It was believed that Shadow using Chaos Control during his final boss fight with Sonic might have been an oversight but it truly isn't. During Sonic Heroes, Metal Sonic was using Chaos Control during the Metal Madness boss fight against Team Sonic despite the team having the chaos emeralds to be in their super forms. During Shadow The Hedgehog 2005, Shadow is required to use Chaos Control numerous times during "The Last Way" after Black Doom takes all 7 Chaos Emeralds from Shadow. The characters even tell Shadow to use Chaos Control to make his way through the Black Comet and they're instances you can't progress without Chaos Control. Shortly before the Devil Doom boss fight, Shadow got all the Chaos Emeralds to go Super. However, Devil Doom was still using Choas Control during the entire boss fight despite not having the chaos emeralds anymore. He even comments on how he underestimated their powers as he abandoned them to try and best Shadow. Sonic 06 speaks for itself, so Shadow and other characters have been using chaos control without emeralds since SA2 and every game after.
Black Doom explained in the Last Story that the Chaos Emeralds are used to amplify Chaos Control's power.
In SA2 and Sonic 06, it's more so implied that Sonic's the only one that needs a chaos emerald to use Chaos Control. Sonic also refers to Chaos Control as Shadow's technique in both aforementioned games. Shadow naturally was born with Chaos Energy as the Ultimate life form as he got his blood from Black Doom who also can freely cast the ability. Metal Sonic could use Chaos Control without emeralds because he copied Shadow's data along with Chocola and Froggy who both have chaos energy. So in total, we have Shadow, Black Doom, and Metal Sonic who all does it without emeralds. As I'm writing this I remembered that during ShTH, Black Doom has consistently actively used Chaos Control to teleport Shadow to different locations while Black Doom himself was not in possession of any Chaos Emeralds. So in conclusion they're truly merely for amplification.
It is interesting to see the discrepancies. I remember even asking about the ordeal one time with Forces since weirdly that game does also continue the trend of "Where is the Emerald?" while Shadow is using Chaos Control.
Heck, I just see Chaos Snap as a lesser Chaos Control that just doesn't have the Time Stop
And in Sonic Battle Shadow states he doesn't need a Chaos Emerald to use Chaos Control anymore because he "has Maria in his heart".
@@bluestar5812 I always just divorced that story moment from the gameplay since the idea was that Shadow was relying on that moveset but could ahead, but I also do respect that for many, their takeaway is that he can fully use Chaos Control without the Emerald.
I agree. I just got finished writing a whole ass essay explaining how Shadow and the rest of the cast can infact use Chaos powers without an emerald. Chaos control is an innate abilty lol.
Case and point, the Biolizard has a synthesized organ specifically created to use chaos warp abilities (Shown in the Project Shadow document Rouge holds in front of Shadow’s face in SA2). No emeralds needed.
And lets not forget about the “fake emerald” in SA2. Sonic using it to escape an explosion and nearly passing out afterwards also shows that that power is coming mostly from _him,_ not a power thats being substantially lent to him, or else he wouldn’t be tired.
Chaos control is quite literally the characters telling you that they can control the “chaos” aka power from within now, without an emerald. Emeralds only serve as an amplifier for the power a user already has within (This goes for machinery and all forms of life in Sonic as well)
@@unnamed12346 It's very interesting indeed. I also see Chaos Snap in the same regard as you. I hope one day fans really look back at SA2 all the way to Forces and realize that chaos abilities for for Shadow has always been innate.
i haven't even seen the video but i'm 99% sure it's gonna get into how each story is made with different interpretations of sonic on a conceptual level and so they don't link together well and the solution is to have a bunch of different canons
Too easy of an answer. We only have one lifetime.
@@whaleping exactly, we gotta get some actual creatives with actual inspirations on board and they'll know what to do with all these ideas
I actually like the humans on continents and (morbians?) on islands idea. Vaguely, Sonic started on the islands protecting them. He ages and then Robotnik sets his sights on the mainland. I think you could generally say that as an explanation.
You can like it but it is very messy if you consider that humans have technology which at least includes planes and cars (not even counting Eggman) and even Sonic had his own plane before meeting Tails.
It'd need a leap including something like forcefields (Sonic lore masters at the Sonic YT channel, please don't write this down) to explain why we only see them together very rarely, no acknowledgements of them in modern media and the changing geography.
The reality is that Mario of all things is more consistent.
A famous morbian once said, “It’s morbin time”
It is no less bullshit than what fans have been making fun of Iizuka’s statements before such as “the moon turned so it’s not broken now”.
@thelastgogeta The actual main cast do not represent how the furries live. Sonic is a wanderer, Tails is an outcast, Knuckles a hermit, Amy a Sonic fangirl/wannabe girlfriend, others are detectives or secret agents/career criminals and etc. So of course they can easily show up in the mainland with all the humies. Also none of the NPC dialogue in Adventure One shows surprise at Sonic and Co. being there besides Gamma (who is an Eggman made robot).
@@galten7361 The problem isn't that we don't see Sonic and company with humans even once every two games. It is more so that we basically never have a scenario where even one human is doing anything near where the heroes are or and when the Sonic cast visit a land with NPCs, they either see humans or furries.
The humans taking no surprise to them being around doesn't fix anything.
Also the thing is that sonic team is always having different people come and go. Like most people who worked on gen’s didn’t work on forces
As a fan of Bomberman, Double Dragon, Bubble Bobble etc. three series' that absolutely don't have canon. trust me Sonic did/does have a canon, it just doesn't have a timeline or strict enforcement of continuity strings, Sonic has a cast that sticks around between games and are never blatantly re-introduced or explained as if characters don't know them unless that game is their debut.
It's literally just a series of disconnected adventures that take place in the same world and that is completely okay, especially for a mascot platformer, in recent years fans have gone a little wild about this stuff and even SEGA + Sonic Team are now making mountains out of molehills and trying to fix something that wasn't really broken.
Why tell a fun new story full of things I, as a writer, enjoy when I could be agonizing over the internal consistency of twenty year old software rushed out to honor a cross promotion deal with a fast food restaurant?
I could be reminiscing about things I experienced when I was 12 instead of making things for current 12 year olds, and isn't that what art's really all about?
Tbh I kinda liked how for the most part every game was its own little self contained story, Unleashed was its own thing, Black Knight was its own thing, even colors was its own thing. I like Sonic canon when they arent trying so hard to make everything canon and adding so many unnesseary refrences. If they really gotta mention canon then a simple "last time in Sonic" or a tiny refrence to the previous game would suffice at least for me.
I’ve always headcanned the Chaos Control problem by him using Chaos Snap which doesn’t require a chaos emerald Im pretty sure, Ive also noticed the times shadow uses Chaos control without a chaos emerald it always leaves a blue effect (Which is the same color as chaos snap) instead of the green effect
I REALLY don't envy the Lore Team's job of trying to fit round pegs into square holes as convincingly as possible.
3:33
Prime did start production before the lore team was a thing. So it would be hard to change it to fit the canon without just making a new show.
So to count it towards your point, Izuka or Sega could’ve made it non-canon. But yet they decided to make it canon.
They just straight up didn’t care about canon. More on that is SoA but that’s for a different time
@@kilometersperminute4113 Yeah, that’s why they made Prime canon. They didn’t care.
“They” refers to the production team here. Sega doesn’t care about actual canon but to maintain a consistent brand.
@@kilometersperminute4113 No, Izuka now thinking about it, as I remember him saying he wants to unify the Sonic brand more. Basically Prime is canon because he wants it to be canon.
I initially was thinking about Sega when said they. Which makes more sense as they have more control over what to make canon. Instead of the production team of Prime.
It's all about marketing XD. We're simply just mindless lowly bottom feeders for Sega/sonic team to feed.
So this is the redone Sonic canon video, then. Well done!
Please don't delete this video like you did the last one because this is something that people need to hear
I've been out of the loop for a while, what was the deleted video about?
@@joeser6666 The original video was about this same topic, but Pariah thought his points were delivered too harshly and he was very agressive, and he was even called out for it, so he privated the video and made this remake, hope this helps!
They don't actually. He just has an opinion he wants to give.
The moon already fixed itself at the end of Sonic Adventure 2, if you look closely, the moon was already fixed after Sonic and Shadow did chaos control to turn ARK back in orbit. And the ARK suddenly looks fine even though some pieces of it broke off when it was falling. That's because Chaos Control rewind the ARK back into state where it never started to fall in the first place, rewind to before it had all seven Emeralds and little bit back before it fired at the moon
contrived as fuck. probably a continuity error
Tonal shifts are fine, to be honest.
Real life has no continuity errors by the nature of the physical reality, but it's full of tonal shifts.
yeah but fiction isn’t real life. Real life has people die for no reason and unsatisfying things happen at random. Sonic stories would not be better for being more realistic and having these. Consistent tone is integral creating a competent narrative.
@@ohgodwhy5626People die for no reason in fiction too, just less often. Zoro from One Piece backstory is his friend dying just like that. I'd say Maria had a senseless pointless death too.
The continents island explanation is actually perfect.
Even if it is clearly a cover up.
I really just want good and meaningful stories just like they used to do in the 2000's. Continuity or not, Canon or not I really don't care which may seem a contradiction.
12:32 Doesn't Battle even have an explanation? Shadow gives Emerl his Emerald willingly because his memory of Maria is all he needs, or something like that. Speaking of which, Tails' house in Battle is definitely canon, no one can convince me otherwise.
Well then there's the problem of him fighting Emerl without the Chaos Emerald and still have access to the Chaos powers.
@@castform7 Fortunately I have Sonic Battle in my DS, which is lying on my desk. I just checked the skill descriptions and they don't actually mention the Chaos Emeralds, only Chaos Control. So if he can do the latter without an emerald, his fighting skills aren't affected. That said, I'm not sure if he really can do Chaos Control without an emerald. It would be similar to Sonic turning Super without emeralds.
@@artey6671 Well, I always thought it was a vicinity thing. Shadow doesn't need to have a Chaos Emerald right in his hands, it just needs to be close to him. For example, he teleports himself and Rogue to the ARK while running to the Emeralds. So maybe in this fight in Battle since he's fighting Emerl, he's close enough to the emeralds to still use them. Unfortunately, that still doesn't explain 06 or Forces where no Chaos Emerald is mentioned yet Shadow can still teleport.
@@castform7 I don't know, man. In Heroes Shadow needs an emerald to perform the special attack, even though everyone can collect them there. And in Shadow (the game) he doesn't seem to have an emerald for Chaos Blast / Control, even though the game consists of collecting them. As for Battle, maybe canonically he doesn't fight anyone else except Emerl after giving him his emerald, but the game doesn't mention him losing his skills, I think. I think it's better to not think about it too much.
@@artey6671 Yeah true, but on the Heroes point, technically all the teams can get all the Chaos Emeralds but specific teams have emeralds they they show off in the "real super power of teamwork" cutscene (ex. Team Sonic only has the blue emerald the problem comes from how they got the Emeralds and why each was satisfied with at most 2. I feel like it would've made more sense if getting a Chaos Emerald in the story was something we actually saw with each team rather than having it be left to special stages. As for Shadow himself, yeah there's a reason why Pariah put out a bet of whether or not he will need an emerald. It fluctuates so much that it's best just to treat it like the moon. Shut up and don't think about it.
The problem is that they still want to pretend they care about continuity. Like, they could have given us Classic Shadow as an extra playable character in Superstars, but they allegedly didn't do it because it would "break the timeline" lol
I've actually been waiting for the sequel of this video because I have a funny story relating to Sonic canon. My friend about a year ago noticed I was very into Sonic and wanted me to cover a timeline for her and my other friends got interested because they also heard me mention Sonic a bunch. I was perfectly happy to do this and find out what the timeline is so I went out to find videos explaining Sonic timelines and stories of Sonic games. That's actually when I found your channel with your video on the Classic Sonic titles. In watching your "Story of Sonic" videos I learned a lot about this franchise that I thought I knew all about (ex. Shadow's character in Shadow the Hedgehog). But I feel like the main thing I learned is how fundamentally broken this series is when it comes to how they tell stories when put under the lense of a timeline. So much stuff is used without any regard for what happened before despite needing the context of what happened before. So many character inconsistencies and stagnations. So much that just doesn't work. But I still kept going with the timeline format. Why? Well because it was the easiest way of talking about any Sonic game I consider important enough to talk about. Plus it's kinda fun to think up different ways to make games make a little more sense even though 1. I know it's headcanon and that the reason is "because I thought it would be cool" and 2. It still has problems despite me trying my best. My point is through your videos I've learned that canon doesn't really matter in Sonic as the more you try to fix the more it breaks. I've sorta accepted that Sonic Team doesn't care about how story events and characters act from game to game and that while it can be frustrating, it's also never going to truly change no matter what Tails Tube says so we might as well deal with the cards dealt in our own way. My Sonic timeline is less of a cohesive set of events and more of a collection of Sonic games I want to talk about in the order I want to talk about them in with loose strings and reasoning guiding me as my friends watch me go insane rambling about a blue mammal that runs fast. Honestly with how English Frontiers is written I'd rather the playground style because trying to convince me that these are the same characters across different games and not ideas of characters that take different forms from game to game is a fruitless effort to appease people with something beyond saving.
I want to finish this by saying.....thanks I guess? I know that sounds weird considering what's being talked about but I genuinely mean it. Sonic means a lot to me and your discussions on Sonic games and stories have helped me learn about the franchise and it's stories in many different ways and also allowed me to access how I feel about certain things in this franchise. I know this is kinda stupid and corny but I really do appreciate your Sonic content a lot.
This kind of thing is exactly why the Mario franchise doesn't have a confirmed canon.
Everyone always tries to give a lore explanation and make a timeline for sonic, and I have never understood that. This is a series about a blue hedgehog and a fox with 2 tails fighting against a fat man and his robots, and you expect this to have a consistent timeline???
Yeah.
Lord of the Rings has all kinds of wacky creatures yet I don't think anyone would argue its world-building and story don't matter
It's all about Chaos Emeralds, they could just say Chaos Energy constantly changes reality, so the timeline is literal chaos and, that way they can do whatever they want and still pretend it's all canon and the characters sometimes remember stuff from other games. Like they should just own that the timeline is nonsense and role with it.
I really wish the "canon" were taken less seriously and in recent years, less attempted badly with "Here's a million stupid references in a minute like Family Guy cutaways!" People don't do that with Mario, they just accept that he's a plumber and a doctor and when he and Bowser aren't trying to off each other they're partying it up or playing sports.
With Sonic, I see people taking EVERY little detail and trying to apply it to one of a million Sonic timelines they chose as their favorite lol. Sega's applying resources and budget to a "lore team" while we got lay-offs and gaming industry budget cuts ALL over. That totally couldn't better be used for developing the actual games, naaaah that's too smart for them.
I don't want Sonic to be Mario.
@@t.dmattocks6119 That's not at all the point.
That comparison isn't new or novel it has been made a hundred times and the answer is ever the same.
Sonic is the Anti-Mario so entirely on the virtue of Mario not giving a shit about having a canon should Sonic.
Sonic also has had many stories that directly build onto each other. And I do mean it properly and not just what Mario sometimes does with vage allusions to his many victories over Bowser but more detailed ones like all of SA1 being build on top of Knuckles and Angle Islands backstory in Sonic 3&K
@@rynobehnke8289 Sonic isn't the opposite of Mario in that regard. I agree that Mario doesn't and really shouldn't care much about things like that. But implying Sonic actually takes it seriously, with how absolutely torn to shreds any consistent Sonic canon is at this point, I wouldn't say so.
@@stevenshockley4237 It might not be perfect by any stretch but its certainly there and something the series routinely relies on.
Unleashed is like the only game to utterly destroy canon with forces as the next most problematic game.
this topic brings me back to when I was a kid and never considered continuity for any game I played outside of obvious ones like OoT and MM. kinda miss that, when you could play something without asking when it happened
Huh, upload is like 5 hours earlier than usual on public lol
"What do you do?"
"I work at Sonic's Lore Department Team"
"Hahaha funny words... now tell me your actual job"
Every Sonic fan needs to see this video
Truly I find it much better to appreciate games' stories on their own right. Apart from inconsistences, at the end of the day it really doesn't make much difference, the story plays out the same and you'd experience pretty much in the same way
13:32
I think the main reason why is that we love this series, characters, and stories. And that we have many Sonic games that tries with their stories. And Sega doesn’t bother being consistent, which annoys Sonic fans when they try putting effort into their stories. Tell us they’re all in the same canon. And don’t bother just rebooting the entire series when they want to change something drastic.
And at this point, I think most fans probably would rather have a better made lore going forward than to just throw it all out.
btw sorry if this is rude but I just wanted to know if you're planning to make a psychonauts 2 video because I recall you making a video for what you wished for psychonauts 2 but you never talked about it afterwards so its up in the air if it ever exceeding your expectations or was disappointing in some way because I would love to hear from you and your opinions on it maybe you talked about it on stream and i just dont know but it would be really cool if you made a video on it someday
The lore team was only formed a couple years okay, right? They probably havent even had a chance to make a direct impact since everything weve seen since then must have been in production before they could be sorted out themselves, so they kinda havent had the room to do much else than bandaid explanations. I think in the coming years we'll truly get the chance to see what SEGA does with the canon and if its the same as now, then we'll know just how impactful they really are
The way I see it, most games are a like a "what if" and then you can choose your own headcanon. Most of my headcanon is IDW inspired and humans are not part of Sonic's dimention, kinda like in Sonic X, where Eggman is the only human like character in Sonic's world, which works nicely with the idea of "Eggman rapresents the industry trying to take over nature, disrupting the peace of a world fully inhabited by cartoony animals"
Shadow joining GUN was also mentioned in the Expert Mode of Shadow 05, which takes place after the main story.
That is never stated. All it says in expert mode is that Shadow is training. It never specifies what for.
Also, the chaos emeralds were scattered around the events of 06 like the blue one with elise along with its transportation shenanigans that they call time travel. This means that anything that happen in 10yrs past sonic game events never happened in 06. There's not even any zone from past sonic games in the end of the world stage. (Kinda debunking the Solaris scaling more.) That's probably why blaze acts like a different character in 06 and barely remembers sonic. (The same could be said with eggman nega in rivals. But I'm not sure.)
I love this idea honestly. Still wish we had a canon though, but this is fine. I'm also hoping this mindset can inspire fan creators to create even more weird and interesting interpretations of the Sonic world.
I think they should completely remake the canon, if anything. Remove the parts that don’t make sense and add in parts that do and change some things to make it all blend in nicely together. Not like that’s actually going to happen.
25:45
I feel like a lot of Sonic fans don’t want that. A good chunk of Sonic fans would more appreciate newer titles that had more consistent stories and characters, than this series becoming like Mario’s lore.
I def don't want that.
Sonic would need a crash four situation where it just recon everything after adventure two for example.
Lost World of lost media.
The loose canon or lack of one is something I like about this brand.
I know a lot of Sonics, a lot more than the one I first met on GCN.
About the humans, I'm really curious how they'll handle Stadow's past in Shadow Generations. Will they show, or even just mention Maria ?
I think they will veto the rule to either show Maria once as a quick flashback or have a mention of her in loose terms whether that's just the pronoun "her" or the actual name "Maria".
I think they could just have the Shadow level functions and mention her full name in a museum (Generations barely has story after all), but will make more of an effort to acknowledge her specifically because she is likely to be relevant in Sonic Movie 3.
They work well as them all being their own universes with the same characters with some games being the same universe like the adventure games. But then the frustrating part is that they pretend they’re all the same.
I think sonic needs to be interpreted like a comic thingy where like different authors or even different directors jsut create a new story with kinda the basic templates of characters. This is the same like manga being canon and comic being sonic
I do Think the “it doesn’t matter” mode to Think about Canon Will create problems regarding character development.
Because, since we Can just decide that Tails should be a coward in one game or Independent in the next, none of the arcs are going to mean anything because I have the knowledge that we’re just going to throw that aside eventually.
That Said, I Think it’s better that we go with the idea that you made in the Classic Sonic video where we Can have many versions of the Series where we Can explore millions of ideas of What to do with the Series instead of one Big Canon.
It’s impossible to fix the canon of previous games with the newer games, but I think it’s possible for future games to have a clean canon with each other. Doubt Sega would do that though.
The only other antidote I can give to this series would be to give it a happy ending and emotionally strong sendoff.
I think this is yet another case of Sonic fans not understanding simple things. What Sonic fans refer to as "the Sonic canon" are the set of brand guidelines the Sonic IP had in the 90's and 2000's.
As you explained multiple times, Sonic never had a canon. Ever in the Mega Drive games made by the same people each game is it own universe.
What set Sonic apart was Sega' drive to make Sonic the coolest thing ever. In the 90's you had the western interpretations with Archie, Fleetway and the TV shows that really hammed that notion of 90's attitude. The 2000's is marked by Sega's shifting the brand towarda a more anime oriented crowd, given how Otaku Culture was growing in the west at the time with things like Naruto and Dragon Ball Z. This shift is marked by the "Modern" redesigns and the hiring of Shiro Maekawa as the main writer of the games, who promptly changed how the characters behave to fit that new vision. Maekawa's Sonic is very different from original Sonic or even other 3D Sonic not written by him.
Then you hit the 2010's and beyond when the guideline from Sega is to be as plain and inoffensive as possible to not upset anyone. That failed horribly because the software sales of Sonic games dropped hard, whilst the development costs increased with HD gaming.
By "canon" I think what hardcore Sonic fans want is that drive from the first two decades of the brand to not be restrained, to not be afraid to be called "cringe" by journalists. The two most culturally relevant products released by the Sonic brand in the last few years are also the two things that in some way breal away from the norms that Sega stabilished for the IP since 2009: Sonic Frontiers and the Sonic movies.
Try something new, fall, make mistakes, be weird, make memories, inspire people. As a veteran Sonic since the Mega Drive days I think the core appeal of Sonic is the inspiration that he gives me. Inspiration to play better; to draw and improve my art; to learn music; game my own videogames. People talk bow about the Sonic "style" and "sauce", and how Sonic lost it. I think what everyone wants from Sonic is that feeling again of seeing something so unapologetic cool that inspires people to better themselves. By that I think Frontiers has been successful, because its been more that a decade since I've seen so much people producing Sonic fan art for a new game, mods and even entire original vocal tracks. Frontiers gave everyone that spark of inspiration, and more than a consistent lore I think is what everyone wants.
Classic Sonic was largely modeled on shonen manga/anime and other anime/manga like Miyazaki's stuff. The bonus stages in S3 and Knuckles were even designed after Kaio's home in the Saiyan Saga.
I tend to believe we should just treat the material like Mad Max does. It all broadly happened, but the specific details can (and do) vary wildly between the games, the other media content and (back in the 90's) Japan, Europe and the US.
I wish more sonic fans watched this video. Also, are you reading sonic IDW?
There are ways you can very loosely piece some of it together, but it's better not to try at all because of how confusing it would be
2:02 Tonal shifts should not mean they aren't canon. April Fools day is in the same timeline as [insert horrific thing here]
A music youtuber I've recently seen pointed out something I find pretty interesting when it comes to art of any form.
Truth and Reality are not one and the same and should not be mistaken as such.
Sonic does not have a continuing Reality and cannot reasonably be made to do so, thus I have no reason to care about Sonic's Reality because the thing that determines a well-written Sonic game has more to do with how well it captures the Truth of what Sonic is within the scope of what that game is trying to do.
We see this kind of stuff not just in Sonic but in all forms of art, expression, and even in places that shouldn't be about what we want such as the many retellings of our own world's history.
Continuity in Sonic will always be a mess, so I just like to have my own headcanon, by using (and making) mods that make some changes to add continuity (For example adding the Chip Bracelet on games post-Unleashed, or making Classic Sonic in gens closer in desing to his modern counterpart), or just thinking of explanations for the (multiple) plotholes, not because it fixes anything, but because it's just nice to have your own version of the story where you can "control" what's canon instead of having to take into account every change Sega does whether you like it or not (For example, the mania universe will always be a thing to me, I don't care if they try to retcon it), I just like to have my own (more logical in my head) version of a story I care about, and would like to encourage others into having one themselves .
Don't worry, the eclipse cannon actually had a "repair" switch that the heroes used to fix the moon at the end of SA2.
When everything is canon, nothing is
Very good. This is known as the is-ought problem. I have followed your videos for a while.
However, I think some things do not actually contradict each other. The humans and the animals and the islands and the Sonic Riders metropolis could feasibly be on distinct parts of the large globe. Shadow could feasibly work for GUN temporarily, like Rouge. The Sonic Generations grandfather paradox timeline split could feasibly predate a faster Classic Amy.
Great video paraiah.I agree with what you said exept that the characters are like toys which makes them less valuable. In my opinion sonic games should have a continuity, not in a sence that you need to play every game to understand what is going on like kingdom hearts but instead should have self concluded stories like sonic unleashed and the storybook series which you don't need to play the previous games to understand the world and cast.
The Sonic canon it's a beautiful chaos... Beautiful because it has a very original lore, endearing characters and interesting stories and, at the same time, chaos because it has inconsistencies, continuity mistakes and changes in tones.
I don't understand why complicate everything and say that is the same continuity instead of their own universes and call it a day
You know, it’d be nice to have canon consistency at least hereon BUT I think at least character consistency and proper arcs has to be necessary.
I think there can be a compromise to satisfy both sides. They can have the games where random things happen with writers pulling toys out of a toy box like you said. But to satisfy the lore crowd, Just establish a separate series of games that is called Sonic Quest or something like that. And have all games in that sub-series strictly follow it’s own canon and interpretation of sonic characters and it’s own backstories and events. Sorta like how the sonic movies are doing their own thing, but make it a game series. And in Each game in that series, the canon matters and the lore is consistent and makes sense and it’s heavily narrative focused (perhaps with multiple dialog options like a rpg). lore fans can play that game series for their desire of a sonic long standing storyline like a long running Anime. And casual fans can play the regular sonic games and those games don’t follow any lore or canon. 👍
If they wanted to make a proper Sonic canon, they would've rebooted the series by now, especially considering how they had the chance to do so very recently, Sonic Origins came out and Superstars followed, and they already confirmed that Superstars takes place after the events of the classic games. They very easily could've made it that the new canon is the classic games represented by Origins, Superstars and whatever comes after that and said fuck the rest of the series, none of that happend, but they didn't do that.
What makes anyone think that they care in the slightest?
You logistically can’t do a reboot at this point, cause the Sonic fanbase would fragment. If you got rid of the Wisps, there would be many who would hate that. Some people even like that the Zeti exist.
Yeah, much like say Mario or even Zelda tbh, I don't think they care about a proper cannon.
They've should have after Forces if it was a financial failure like it should have been instead of being passed off as a financial success which it's not, it's more of a unplayable mess than a actual game
My own reboot of the Sonic series would be a remake of Sonic Adventure with the new lore introduced in Sonic Superstars.
@@nicksokolowski7709 How could it be a financial failure? The game sold well. According to the financial report in February 2018, Sonic Forces, along with Yakuza Kiwami 2, and Football Manager 2018 all had powerful performances in the market, to such an extent in fact that the company sold more than 14.3 million copies in retail, translating to a 76% increase in the quarter year-on-year, even though they released fewer games.
This was undoubtedly a huge relief for Sega and the Sonic franchise, taking into account that before the launch of Sonic Forces, the franchise had a bad time with the financial failure of Sonic Boom Rise of Lyric.
I honestly view sonic lore like star wars lore both canons are not stable and are the exceptions to the rule of canon not matter and pick and choose what media you like and make it your canon timeline in your head and ignore the stuff you don't like
23:20 Pariah gets so annoyed he changes an accent for 2 seconds.
Here's a question if there are no humans then what is eggman?
🥚
I saw a tweet once saying that this franchise, being so all over the place in terms of tone and whatnot, accidentally ends up being a perfect depiction of the concept of “chaos” as a result, and that that’s the beauty of Sonic.
I like that thought, and besides, as much as I wish there WAS some real coherence to this series’ overarching “canon” to give it all a nice flow, it is what it is, I’m not gonna hurt my brain any further trying to somehow come up with ways this chaos COULD work in a single timeline, and those drastic miracle cure measures you mentioned probably aren’t happening anytime soon. I just wanna have fun being dragged along on such a crazy ride.
Bless this mess!
Honestly they should either just not gaf about canon or just give the series ola soft reboot
"Quite."
It's so weird that any of these problems exist in the first place because we have the Time Eater. That entity is the easiest way to immediately excuse any story or universe issue or inconsistency, even in the past.
Why is Amy super powerful in Superstars and then a normal person again in Adventure? Why are the Chaos Emeralds from another planet but also somehow integral to the Gaia Cycle? Why did Shadow join and then leave G.U.N? "The Time Eater just fucked up spacetime that bad", bam, instant solution, no more of that transparently cynical, "they think we're idiots" lore team or 'knowing smile' bullshit
Super genesis wave - game edition?
A simple solution to this is to reboot EVERYTHING 😂
Yeah 100%
But after Boom They probably scared to even reboot anything about Sonic
Even tho The problem with Boom wasn’t that it was a reboot
And wipe out the last 30+ years, thus completely shattering an already seriously strained fandom? Yeeeeah, not happening
Okay cool.
Yeah, the canon makes no sense when you simply look at it.
I was able to make sense of it but it relied on lots of implied theories (like how the 900 adventures on IDW can explain the different characterizations of the main cast) so I get your sentiment, you gotta make short explanations for every retcon which can be re-retconned at any time.
So.... it makes no sense.
When it comes to Sonic I really like that they have the freedom to do whatever they want with this series. I just wish they wouldn’t actively contradict past games while doing so. I don’t mind ass-pull explanations, or handwaving things that aren’t significant; I just want preexisting stories to not get completely thrown out while still giving maximum creative freedom in new ones.
If that’s the job of the “lore team” then I’m all here for it
They didn’t have any freedom to do whatever they want they instead chose to have only Sonic being the main focus.
I really like the Mess, Sonic has touch almost every Single Tone for many types of Storytelling. At the end of the day is a fictional character, who can tell any type of story
Lore teams, and that thing, is just. Broken...from the core
Couldn't walk away from something broken
Tried to find a way to make it good again
Only you can make a difference darling
Always
I hate to say this, but I think (almost) every Sonic game is set entirely in its own universe or timeline. The entire game series is a multiverse in itself. I think time travel, different dimensions and timeline resets might have been contributing to this notion. I know that at one point it probably wasn't supposed to be this way but with all these new mainline installments that were coming out where the story takes different turns and directions that shakes up everything we know about the established lore, it's the only other reasonable way how I can properly make sense and decipher the timeline now.
I saw J's Review retrospective of the Sonic Timeline and while he has said a few times in that video it was mainly HIS head canon, I can tell that he was deliberately not mentioning or bringing up the two worlds theory or why or how humans just randomly show up in Sonic's world. There is inconsistency, yes, but how do the events in one game connect to the other when the literal background settings change in every new game? How do you explain that?
I've heard other cynical opinions and takes where people don't care about the NPCs in Sonic games and just say that they're just background "people" in the games. It does not matter if they're humans, anthropomorphic animals, aliens or robots. It's the world that the game revolves in.
I've also heard a theory somewhere that Eggman turned all the humans into the wisps in Sonic Colors and that's the reason why we no longer see them in future games like in Forces or Lost World.
I've since created my own headcanons based on a few things like the two worlds theory explaining why we don't see humans or why the moon is in tact.
Maybe at one point the cartoons and comic books were canon to some of the games at some point but there probably was some sort of disconnect between certain companies that owned these different assets. It happens really in the business world. It's probably why in Sonic X, while being an adaptation of the Adventure games, still decided to go in its own route and establish Sonic and his friends as being from another planet or a parallel dimension of Earth while the actual games themselves don't talk about this at all and they just randomly show up in a modern human civilization made to look like everything is set on Earth.
In some way it's like the Star Wars Legends and Disney canon or how the Pokémon anime and game series are also two different continuities despite telling more or less the same story with major key differences.
And then you have this saying that the human world and Mobius use to be one world but then it somehow shifted or split into two separate or multiple realities? Maybe this could explain the origins of Blaze, Shadow and Nega Eggman?
I just always thought that Silver and Blaze don't have any time travel or multiverse origin because we don't see them returning to their current time periods or worlds, they just stay in Sonic's world. Nega Eggman I view as just a one time doubleganger or evil twin like Wario or Bizzario, I'll be it just two versions who are both evil.
I'll conclude by adding to the final thoughts mentioned in this video that yeah, most video game storylines in general aren't really the true main focus. It's only a supporting supplement for gameplay and visuals. Mario and Sonic are both similar and different at the same time with how every game does focus on it's mainline cast but whereas Mario's world is quite clear with where it's based, Sonic doesn't have that. Yes there's Green Hill Zone but that's not always where every Sonic game is centered around. But that's usually to how different companies create their video games.
Ever tried the "broad strokes" approach? Things did happen, yet not exactly as shown or as we remember? That way all make sense! Then what were the games?
Even us fans are grasping at straws. It's over.
EDIT: 19:09 he did.
I can't get enough of your dry humor, good shit
I only want to have a better put together lore or just more consistency in recent stuff, because I love these characters, the world, many of the stories or what they are going for. But I do know how many inconsistencies there are in the franchise.
I probably would want to do a reboot if they want to have a completely cohesive lore.