How Important is Story in Sonic?
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- čas přidán 21. 02. 2024
- Please don't count how many times I say, "like" in this video lol.
Not sure how productive this video is. I explore some ideas. But I don't know if this makes a solid conclusion about anything. But I hope it at least got you thinking about things. It's easy for fans to get lost in what they want, and lose sight of the bigger picture. Including me.
/ pariah695
ko-fi.com/pariah695 - Hry
i could be wrong but the fact that you can tell actual stories with sonic is part of his appeal imo, sonic feels like a character who was designed to be cartoony, but also cool and serious enough to tell actual stories with. the bigger focus on personality and story compared to other games has been a thing since the beginning, they were just limited by technology at the time.
As a Sonic fan with terminal brainrot levels of zeal to the series, I got into it *because* of story and characters. And I think that's a common occurence - the fandom is full of people who care about the story because that's the type of a person this series attracts. Or at least it did 20 years ago.
I got into Sonic because I played Sonic 1 when I was a kid and I found it really fun.
@@GGAMER1337BR but there are just as many casual fans who could also get into the series because of the story and characters. i got into sonic through Sonic X, the adventure games, and riders.
to assume that EVERY newcomer or casual wont like the stories feels like a bad assumption.
Fandoms are cringe
@@AlexHedgefoxit's not universal, but it's a general population. Like if you weren't a fan of Sonic already, why should you care about the story or characters beyond an aesthetic level?
@@sonic5993 Nobody cares about stories until after they are told, getting into them is literally all aesthetics. Same thing with gameplay, soundtrack, or anything else
Experience is not spontaneously created in your mind from nothing
To me… the disjointed but seemingly connected stories of the 2000s is what made me such a huge Sonic fan… so to me… very important
Like there’s a portion of the fanbase that stories appeal to the heaviest and I think that side of the fanbase should be acknowledged
@@bluecheckmiya Technically the IDW comics do that? But that's kind of a twisted note now isn't it
Same it was great how the Adventure Games, Heroes, Shadow and 06 all followed into each other. It really kept you hooked to see what happens next for the cast.
Me too, those 2000's games were the best
Even in the handheld games there was continuity. You had the first 2 Advance games then Battle which had shadow and Emeral in it and lead into Advance 3 with Gemeral.
Kids aren't as stupid as many people think they are. The only reason why I didn't really care about the story of the 2000's games when I was a kid is because I didn't understand English.
The real answer boils down to what the core appeal of Sonic the Hedgehog is... and how the vast majority of people who aren't hardcore Sonic fans completely fail to recognize what that core appeal, the fundamental essence of what Sonic the Hedgehog is supposed to be, is even supposed to be in the first place.
What Sonic Team intended Sonic to be in the Genesis and Dreamcast games, and what people grew to expect from Sonic, are completely antithetical to one another. This means that SONIC as a franchise is antithetical to what the wider audience expect and want from this franchise. Ultimately, what it really boils down to is the very nature of colorful, cartoony characters in general. Some would say that they expect Sonic to be like Mickey Mouse, in reference to Mickey Mouse Clubhouse being a preschooler-oriented cartoon. But Mickey Mouse in Kingdom Hearts is just as epic and anime and cool as Sonic is, and it's played completely straight that this rubberhoose cartoon mouse is a powerful warrior and a King that everyone respects. And Epic Mickey is not much different, in regard to venturing into a bit of a more serious tone with Mickey as an "epic" hero. Mickey Mouse's original conception was simply a fun character in animated short films that were shown to EVERYONE in theaters, and those early animations weren't afraid to do all sorts of things. It's only over time that certain factors came into play that caused Mickey to be seen as a very kid-oriented concept that had to be sanitized and played safe for those younger demographics, and cartoons as a whole become seen as a "kid" thing.
But this isn't really a factor in Japan. Animation as a whole is taken very seriously in Japan, and that's why Anime is the way that it is. "Shonen" is a demographic geared towards young boys, but the content within Shonen can be very mature, or very extreme, or just flat-out cool, with all sorts of stories being told and characters being explored, in a wide variety of genres. And certain shonen protagonists, like Goku and Luffy, might as well be a Mickey Mouse-esque cartoon mascot character but with a more human design, dropped into this deeper world and narrative, and it works perfectly. And THIS is what Sonic the Hedgehog is, going full-circle by turning the Goku and Luffy type of protagonist back into the Mickey Mouse rubberhose cartoon animal template, whilst retaining all the spiky-haired super sayain power and action. Sonic the Hedgehog is fundamentally the Cooler, Anime Mickey Mouse at his very core, and that is the heart and soul of the franchise as a whole. From the gameplay to the stories, it all centers around this colorful cartoon character being an unstoppable force of nature blasting through everything at the speed of sound, on a thrilling action-packed adventure.
The simple fact that the most basic, fundamental premise of the franchise is Sonic fighting against Doctor Eggman and his army of robots, should make that clear to EVERYONE this is an ACTION-ADVENTURE series. So deeper stories and lore and character writing should be expected. But the divide between "Silly Cartoon" and "Serious Anime" is so massive in most people's minds, that the fact that Sonic inherently destroys that boundary simply by existing is just too much for them to comprehend.
The thing is that this whole problem isn't real to begin with
Sonic didn't get less popular because the games had stories- it got less popular because the games were shit, and that trend continued after they tried to pull back on story because they only made TWO games that anyone actually liked at the beginning of the 2010's
Man you actually like, nailed the thing. I am truly surprised by the depth of this comment. Thank you, bud (no irony)
His appeal is beyond our understanding.
@@charmyzardwell yeah. That's kinda how you make an interesting fictional series.
Thank you for writing all of this. This is a concept I want people that has any opinion of Sonic to grasp, because this base foundation for what Sonic actually is is so misunderstood.
If only the bad 90’s localization with the american side literally fighting with japan’s side didnt take place, then this would be more understood and the adventure series wouldnt be seen as such a “departure” to some folk.
2:41 I feel like this is a sort of self-fulfilling issue though. Comparing Sonic to Mario is overdone, but the reason Mario has so many impactful characters is because they allow those characters to spread their wings. There are like five massive spin-off franchises that all have huge casts, if you're playing a non-main game, 90% of the time you'll be able to see Daisy, Waluigi and the other B-to-C-List characters as major, playable members. For Sonic, it's a lot rarer for the series. There's TSR, the mobile games and the Olympics, but that's about it. If Sonic consistently let you USE these characters in games more often, you'd probably see more recognition. Heck, I would bet in a few years general audiences WILL have more awareness thanks to kids who did play the mobile games getting older. I've kind of been seeing it happening now, too, even if only in memes and shallow things like that. In the last few years it seems like Sonic characters are more present in non-fan pop cultural spaces.
The movies obviously put sonic back into people's minds
I guess for Sonic media it's the comics that do this, but the problem, is that video gamers aren't the same buyers as comics exactly, so exposure to other characters are not as apparent to them IMO.
@@nobodycares607 The movies are just another take on the character taking notes from the MCU and DC film universe. They're not really relevant to the actual games' style. What with Soinc being a space alien living in small town America.
It's like how into the spiderverse put a character as obscure as Miles Morales into the general public & got more people into the comics.
The Sonic movies will most likely have the same effect.
Holy christ YES!!!!! I WAS SCREAMING AT MY SCREEN saying EXACTLY this!!! It's such an unfair argument to say "nobody knows these guys, why would we use them?" When they BARELY even tried using them
A counterargument to the reception of the 2000s is that the story wasn't what dragged those games down. People didn't like the polish or certain gameplay aspects and then that made them more critical about everything else, story included down to even the voice actors. Unleashed was panned for the Werehog. 06 was panned for how broken it was for its time. Heroes was hated for the team mechanics and controls. Shadow was hated for being tryhard. The Adventure games got pushed back for having to play as other characters to beat the game. The storybook games were hated for the gameplay. The story was never the main focal point and I'm pretty sure that if these gameplay and polish issues weren't a thing back then, I doubt they would harp on Sonic having a story as much as they did.
The main thing about Colors was that it was a simple game with only Sonic as playable with a goofier overall style. Then that translated over to Generations plus the nostalgia of Classic Sonic. Both were very polished, simple in gameplay and fun. And that is how that direction became the new thing that wasted an entire decade. Mind you, Lost World and Forces didn't do too hot and that was due to the gameplay and polish just not being good.
If anything, they criticize Sonic games for their gameplay and polish and then everything else becomes a byproduct of that criticism including story.
And I don't think choosing the casuals over the fanbase is the way to go, that's how they almost went bankrupt and failed last decade. The Meta Era is what happens when you do that and that's the lowest point financially Sonic has ever had. They might as well capitalize on their already big fandom and then harp on the casual audience that would find this appealing because there are different types of demographics and the one you're referring to are either very small children or boomers who grew up in the 90s. Harp on the casual audience this appeals to like the worldwide demographic of anime and JRPG fans. Being a black male, it's cool finding out other black audiences especially within that space love Sonic even on a casual level for that. It can also help reignite Sonic's Japanese popularity as well given that's a region where goofy concepts meeting serious stories thrive and that being the birth of Sonic does help.
I doubt people didn't like the 2000s story just because the poor gameplay brought everything about the games down with them: If you listen to what people have to say, you can see that those stories have big flaws, if not beong downright bad
For me a good Sonic story isn't necessary but it is amazing when it's there. It makes me feel more connected to the world in a way other franchises just can't
I dont agree with Sonic losing its focus of its story elements for “the health of the series and catering to “casual” audiences” because if you do that, Sonic loses its identity and becomes yet another “Mario-like” platformer, and for what cost? For a mislabled audience thats being misconstrued with the actual casual audience that never cared that deeply and will just play anything anyway? Where do we win? Especially since we’ve already dipped our toes into that with Colors and Lost World and people are already tired of that. Lost World was a failure even WITH that “Saturday morning” vibes in mind , and literally no one likes Sonic Boom for the story despite that game’s story being catered to those audiences, so its not just the story thats “the problem”
I see this type of “Casual vs Hardcore” argument in so many game communities (especially in FGCs). We have to realize that any player that has any sort of preference and wants to play any sort of stakes in the makings of a franchise is *not* a casual. They may want simpler approaches to things and may even be well uninformed on many cases, but THAT and them “expecting Sonic to be what they want” ALREADY are signs of them being in too deep to be considered “a casual”.
These people you are arguing for are literally just like us, “the hardcore fans” but on the other side of the same coin.
An ACTUAL casual is an outlier of that coin. They should be described like say… uncle Bob coming into an arcade shop to play some video games for an hour with his nephew. THAT is an actual casual because these are the type of people who literally don’t care about anything that’s going on in the gaming sphere. They will play whatever what’s infront of them if interested, especially if they have friends and family around.
The people you are describing are *fans with a different preference.* These people are in the CZcams comments, on Twitter, gaming directs, Twitch chat… They are ALREADY way too invested. They may not like the “story approach” to Sonic games, may not understand it, may not even know it even gets deep” but that doesn’t make them casual. And also we shouldn’t treat both these fans and casual types as if they are infallible. The less interested a player demonstrates themselves being, the more likely they dont know what’s best for the series. Also, just because something might “sell well” doesnt automatically make it a “good decision” in the long run (The new Pokemon games can certainly attest to that, and im saying that while not even being a pokemon fan, but simply know it’s doing horrible within the community despite selling gangbustsers because of the gaming zeitgeist) just like how something selling poorly doesn’t necessarily mean something was poorly executed (Rayman Origins vs NSMB Wii being a prime example, as well as hidden gems and indie games).
The casuals that actually exist… they have no stakes in matters like these. They will literally buy and play whatever anyway, sometimes not even knowing what they bought (especially if it was for a son / daughter who might actually be a hardcore fan or fan of the series anyway).
Personally, I think you might as well go the “story” approach because not only do I think a full gaming package that has all the bells and whistles like good gameplay and story is just obviously superior to a game that only hyperfocuses on one aspect of making a game and ignores everything else, but Sonic games in particular lends themselves to be replayed alot because of its inherent speedruning and collectathon nature. So BECAUSE these games are geared for a general audience, where we have kids (as well as teens and adults) replaying the games over and over again, putting in the seeds of a deeper storyline will only enhance the experience regardless if some “kids” dont immediately pick up on every or even some details. Hell, there’re adults and even hardcore audiences to this day that still simply dont know that Chaos is immortal and why that plays a very significant part for both SA1 AND SA2’s plot (To this day I see hardcore fans say SA1 has nothing to do with SA2 which is insane to me in 2024). It doesn’t mean that the story elements should be scrapped just because some dont understand. You literally just kill two birds with one stone with this approach. Its the same tactic as great shows like Spongebob or Dexter’s lab where the writers caters to all audiences cleverly.
Let’s not pretend every hardcore player was just born a hardcore player either. Every single person goes into a progress into becoming a hardcore fan. I was an instant fan since I already liked gaming at a very young age, but I just liked Sonic because of Sonic with his attitude, vibes and gameplay. As I grew older where my tastes became refined and more geared towards competitive hardcore fighters, shooters and speedrunning from other games, I then really started to recognize Sonic as a fantastic speedrunner’s game, then later on in my life, I really started to appreciate the lore, especially the classics and Adventure games. That is the works of a SUCCESSFUL series. They should be doing MORE like that, making people want to be more hardcore. Not just stripping its identy to become more like “Mario” to cater to some fickle and unstable base just because another fan said so. That fan more than likely simply doesnt know whats good for the series and could even change his mind later down the line like alot of these fans in this community does (because again, these are kids growing up to adults, after all, where tastes change), and I personally dont want this to be some generic run of the mill, soulless “happy go lucky” quirky platformer like literally everything else on the market. It makes no sense to me to have all these crazy and unique character designs in these Sonic games just for them to be yet ANOTHER “Saturday morning cartoon” platformer. Those people asking for that can literally just play another platformer for that instead of just trying to change what they’re geting into or misunderstoodthe entire time due to the poor localization of the past. Sonic becoming story-light / less is the equivalent of the mid 2000’s “Bald army sergeant” gaming protagonist. I dont want Sonic to be some whimsical, tounge and cheek platformer like Banjokazooie. I dont want it to be silly like Crash Bandicoot. I dont want a generic “save the princess / stop Dr Eggman” storyline like Mario does. I dont want him to be some generic quippy comic book hero that all these fans ask this character to be either. I want Sonic to be SONIC, and I think thats what’s best for the series instead of just copying everything else’s success.
To summarize: Lost World and Forces, catering to casuals... and loss of franchise identity.
Yeah, my issue with the "What does the silent majority want" argument is that it inevitably leads to every series becoming ad-riddled gacha shovelware and live service grind-fests.
Sonic is BUILT on having story without story you just have Mario but his gimmick is running fast
@@carloscreative5538 absolutely disgusting and unprovoked behavior. Not gonna take the bait from some unhinged nerd lol. Come at me correct if you want an actual discussion.
@@carloscreative5538 outdated meme, but go touch grass.
The thing that makes sonic stories stand out to me is the fact that none of the 2000’s stories talked down to kids. The writers made it very clear that they saw sonic as more than just “Another kids game” they actually tried to make a product with good writing quality. The theme of abusive relationships may have gone over your head, but maybe for a kid who is going through something like that they could relate to that story element. I had played the sonic games before but for a long time they didn’t click with me, it was only when I watched some character analysis videos where I realized how interesting the writing actually was. Maybe with the new movie coming out sega could give more complex stories a second chance, and maybe outside people could fall in love with these games the way I did.
😐Hmm..
😑 doubt it.
@@crimsonzone8984 wow, cool it with the remarks
@@joeser6666 sorry
@@crimsonzone8984 it's ok ❤️❤️❤️
@@joeser6666 😋 i was kidding around though. 😒 2010 or not, I just don't like how or what sonic is nowadays. Sonic team/Sega is basically doing whatever ignorant people want without really putting much into the things they sell. And the movies are as what pariah said it is, just superhero films 🙄featuring sonic characters.
13:43 Korone is a rare case... in Japan! Most people get into Sonic and become a fan BECAUSE of the story. The other "casual fans" don't really play beyond the must plays of the series.
i've seen her try English a few times in some clips, Sonic was meant for western audiences and not many people know him in Japan since he's probably not as heavily marketed in there, though i could be wrong who knows. it's very cool she got into it!
She is not a rare case. Japan expects Sonic to have grandiose stories because they have zero classic nostalgia and the Adventure games are the gateway drugs.
@@kilometersperminute4113 if that's true then his point is even more moot.
I should note that SomeCallMeJohnny’s opinion regarding “Colors” has changed a bit in the years following the old review.
Also, what’s wrong with having elements kids might not understand in stories geared towards them? Most classic stories have those. I mean… no kid is going to understand the allegory for sexual assault in “Little Red Riding Hood”, but they still understand the basic moral - be weary of strangers. If it’s done well, you can tell really intricate stories in just about anything.
I think the problem with appealing to casuals and general audiences is that most of them don’t even know what they themselves want. The more you try appealing to that broad demographic, the more thin the spread becomes. And by that point, why even bother buttering the bread? Just serve them rocks and they’ll eat it up regardless.
he didn't say that there was anything wrong with that,he only brought it up like that to strengthen his next argument about how it is for the general public
@koko I feel like that is an issue in of itself. Why the general public? Not everyone will like the same thing, and trying to cater exclusively to the general audience inevitably leads to alienation.
I don´t feel Pariah realizes that´s not a valid argument in... many contexts!
@@josuebarba9361
“Why the general public?”
Money
I agree, but --- remember that the silent majority is easily influenced by media 'influencers'. People with only a marginal interest in the story of Sonic may find lore videos or other fan content just to entertain themselves and become more knowledgable and invested in the topic.
We've also come a long way since the days of "Sonic's stupid friends" and "ow the edge". People are much more open to the expanded world of Sonic outside of the main cast. The Snapcube dubs were even mainstream memes for a while. I don't think that would have happened in 2010.
there is a way to do light hearted stories with big epic anime moments.
key examples being Sonic Heroes and Sonic Unleashed, those games are very silly light hearted romps from the beginning that gradually get more anime-y as the story progresses leading into the big super sonic fight with the monster.
or you have sonic riders which is a significantly lighter story with goofy over the top expressions for the characters.
the balance is possible its just a matter of giving a shit and trying
You spitting straight facts. Also you forgot to mention sonic and the black knight which has a tone similar to sonic unleashed.
P.s. The tone you described is the tone that I want in sonic stories
@oy3403 thanks, but id argue unleashed is darker and more into the anime tone than unleashed was.
the tone we're talking about is kinda like Kirby, where it starts off all cartoony and friendly, but gets darker and more serious the the more you play.
its definitely possible and i totally think you can make a sonic game with a more lighthearted joke and a bigger use of comedy and still make it good
to me, the 2010s failed at this because other than the humor just sucking absolute ass, those stories werent even... all that good. at best they were just pretty boring, hollow and skippable with a few cringy jokes like in colors and gens, and at worst they're whatever the hell lost world and forces were trying to do. character interactions were dry as hell, most of the clever humor and visual comedy was replaced with characters cracking bad jokes, the stories themselves werent that interesting even if you took away the cringy dialogue
as you said, it is definitely possible to hit that balance but you gotta actually care and try to make a good story for it to work
They don’t need to be lighthearted.
@@autumn_leaves1011 Humour in the sonic series has always been middling at best to ass, that's not unique to the 2010s, idk where you're getting this clever humour or visual comedy from. As for stories, outside of a select few games sonic stories are nothing to ride home about.
I don't really think games with heavy story were poorly received by the audience because of the story, it's mostly just that the game themselves have a lot of issues in their gameplay and presentation, so complaining about the huge story on top of that is a no brainer move, like "they want to make a dramatic story but can't even get the gameplay right lol" kind of mindset. People only complain about story when the game is overhaul not fun, so they can come up with an excuse that they were "trying way too hard."
The problem is that regardless of why, the precedent is now set. Sonic taking itself seriously is a joke to a lot of people. And that stigma around Sonic informs newcomers views on Sonic, giving them a bias before even trying to engage with the stories.
@@Pariah6950 While I do agree that this stigma is real, I do think that it can be reverted IF they are able to execute well the gameplay and especially the presentation of those stories so that people who are not used to can actually care about engaging with the plot, even though Sonic Team might have wanted their stories to be more intricate since the start, they pretty much failed in conveying that in the classic games (probably due to hardware limitations), giving the audience a wrong impression on what Sonic truly is, but I do believe it's something they can revert back.
Having a deep story in a Sonic game doesn't necessarily have to remove its lighthearted and simplicity that casuals might expect, I don't see the example you gave on Secret Rings as a bad thing because I think the theme of abusive relationship being somewhat hidden is what allows it to be lighthearted to a degree, tons of kids-oriented media have the obvious "good vs evil" plot that anyone will understand and the complex and more nuanced ideas behind that makes it more special for those that want to dig through.
I find weird the idea that they had to create a "story" for people that don't like or care about Sonic story in Colors/Gens/Lost World, it would be way better if they just ditched cutscenes entirely and just made a stage-to-stage game, the same people would probably be just as happy if not more, so at that point why bother "simplifying" the story of Sonic to appeal to an audience that doesn't care anyway? I think if they just make a game with very good gameplay where you can skip all cutscenes with no compromises, while at the same time having the good anime-drama plot that fans enjoy, it would already satisfy both audiences since people that don't care can just skip through.
@@sanglish18 I fully agree here. I've been saying this for years: if the 2000's games were all good final products, the stories would not have been laughed at as much. They still would've been made fun of but not as much.
I can't help but feel we can have both. Games like superstars and mania are pretty light on story and that's all well and good where games like frontiers have a more story focus to them. Both games have their fans and people quite like them. The problem is sonic as a series can be so many things its hard to say it has to be one thing without leaving people out. As a 2000's sonic fan, I have always loved the story telling even if it didn't always work or land with younger audiences. These stories are something that can stick with kids and can be appreciated more as they grow older. You said it yourself, Pariah, at the end of your sonic battle story summary that one thing which has always made sonic distinct is its focus on story and characterization. IMO its part of the reason has stuck around so long in the first place.
I think the big outlier in your argument here, one that you even brought up yourself, is Frontiers. No the story of that game is not perfect at all, but in many ways it does bring back the epic grand story with hype moments that older Sonic games had, and it is the best selling 3D Sonic game I think ever? At least since Heroes, I’m not sure if it’s actually the best selling game or not. And like you said a lot of Sonic fans really liked the story, but more casual fans just didn’t care about it. And I think there’s a difference between these casual fans actively despising the story and just not caring about it. Cuz if they don’t care about it, then why not put a good fun story there for the hardcore fans that DO care about it?
To me it just comes down to them making a good game and if they’re going to have a story in there at all, then it should be good and interesting at the very least. Have a theme that it follows, develop some characters, have some world building, and then a satisfying climax that brings all of those things together. If they are going to target people who just don’t care about Sonic stories, then I’d much rather them just not have a story at all, similar to Generations or Mania. Put all that extra development effort into the game itself. But if they are going to go through the effort in making a story for these games, then it should be good at the very least.
It's a very small and weak step forward but a step forwards nonetheless
Adventure games, Heroes, Unleashed and Generations have sold more (though they do have more time on their side).
As a casual sonic fan, one thing I saw for the 2000 sonic games is that for 3D sonic games they were continuing the storytelling of the original sonic games for the hardcore Sonic fans, for the 2D (handheld) games they were trying to appeal it to the casual sonic fans. So to me it feels like Sonic team was targeting both sides of the sonic community, if you like stories in sonic then the 3D sonic games provide that, if you just like the gameplay of the 2D sonic games and don't care about the story then the handheld sonic games are the games for your taste.
Even the handheld games had good stories on par with the console games, however they were limited by text instead of voice acting so it didn't have as much impact.
If we're talking strictly in terms of Sonic being successful as a franchise, of course there's going to be groups of people who don't care about the story. You could say that for any video game. There are plenty of people out there who couldn't care less about any stories in any video games because they just want to play the video game. That's cool and all, but I don't think we should really be catering to people who don't like Sonic for the sake of making Sonic successful, that seems like a dead-end street. What, if the general public in their ignorance and lack of knowledge about anything in the series suddenly decided that Sonic was the worst thing about the series should we then get rid of Sonic as a character? No, of course not.
Same with making use of other characters. So what if the general public doesn't know who characters like the chaotix are? They definitely never will know if we just resign ourselves to never doing anything with them because the general public doesn't care.
And even setting the stories themselves aside, a lot of really iconic moments in Sonic games even on the gameplay side of things are informed by their stories. Sonic being a hedgehog and Eggman being a mad scientist as well as Sonic 1's gradual progression from more lush tropical stages to ancient temples into more industrial stages and the contents of those levels in the form of the kinds of challenges they provide are a result of having narrative context. You fight weird robots because Eggman is a scientist which is the case because they wanted to have environmental themes in the game.
Sky Sanctuary's level structure is a layered vertical shaft you go back and forth across and can skip between parts of it with carefully chosen jumps because of the context of it being a climb up the ruins to each the launching Death Egg.
Zero Gravity's gravity mechanics were contextualised by the role the arks of the cosmos serve in the narrative.
Sonic doing flashy stunts off ramps in the advance games is a product of his character.
So even if we ignore stories in and of themselves, a good story can serve as the basis for interesting gameplay ideas. They can be mutually beneficial to one another.
But getting back on topic, I think the idea that Sonic stories aren't really that important because the general public isn't that attentive to Sonic isn't really a good reason to stop trying to make good Sonic stories. In any case, I think trying to make Sonic 'appeal to as many people as possible' is a pointless endeavor. All that will do is dilute any sense of identity or integrity a given Sonic game has. If Sonic Team found something mechanically that really worked well but the general public didn't like it, they shouldn't throw it out for that alone. They should throw it out based on having gone back and assessed what tangible problems with their design they could identify so they can know how to do it better or do something else that's better with that critical thinking in mind. Rather than that, a better goal to pursue would be to strive for Sonic to be the best work of art as it can. If in any given entry, that just so happens to involve having a story, then so be it. If it doesn't, then so be it.
This focus on what the public wants as opposed to what will make the work better is the exact mindset that procured what Sonic fans call "the meta era" with cynicism; Sega's reactionary responses to criticism without taking into account whether they are actually doing anything wrong in the first place. The whole throw the baby out with the bath water approach.
When I think about it, I realize that I actually got into Sonic not because of the games, but because of Sonic X. It's something that was on TV at the time, and I liked characters, visuals and stories from there, so my parents bought a Sonic game (Heroes, specifically) and I played/liked it. But I played that game because I got interested in characters by the show. **I wouldn't have cared for games if not for the show, and at that time, I would have rather had the stories of Sonic X be continued as a show or some other medium rather than a game series.**
I did play and like Sonic Adventure games, but I only considered those stories good because I was *told* so by other Sonic fans, and there are Sonic X adaptations of said stories. But in reality, the way those stories were presented were rough, to say the least, and I'm not sure I would have enjoyed or even understood them as much if I haven't watched X.
So I wonder how many Sonic fans who care for the story have actually come into the fandom via playing the games themselves, rather than other forms of media or what they were told about the games.
As for ways to compromise between story-heavy animesque stories and story-light gameplay-focused titles... You could do two parallel series of games (kinda like Classic and Modern do right now, but Classic is strictly 2D, so it's not quite that) where one series is story- and lore-heavy and the other is simple and lighthearted, but it's cost-ineffective (one series will always do worse than the other due to niche appeal). Another comrpomise is a Kirby approach -- a simple story on the surface that everyone can understand without playing previous games that goes deep when you get to the endgame and side modes and that cleverly re-uses pre-established concepts in an interesting way (I feel like Heroes kinda did it well with bringing back Metal Sonic and expanding on the idea of him being just a mere copy of Sonic). But that also requires you to have good writers on the team, or at the very least lean heavily on environmental storytelling (which Sonic devs seem to get well enough). You can also combine the two approaches in some way to make the lighthearted games appeal to hardcore fans.
Quick question: Did you watch sonic x and play the games in Japanese dub? Cuz the English dub (always) butchers the stories in sonic.
@@crimsonzone8984 I was a little kid and I didn't have access to the Internet at the time, so I watched a dub of 4Kids version in my language. Despite this, even with such botchered version of the show I still got the general idea and liked it, and there are quite a few Sonic fans who grew on this show despite the dub's quality. Same goes for SA1 and SA2, although by that time I already knew English, so I could have played with JP dub and English-translated subs enabled (though I don't know if the retranslation was available at the time I played it).
That said, yeah, JP versions are superior.
@@crimsonzone8984I was a little kid and I didn't have access to the Internet at the time, so I watched the 4Kids dub (re-dubbed in my native language). Despite the quality of that version, I still got the general themes and ideas and enjoyed the show anyway, and quite a few other Sonic fans grew on that version as well.
I already knew English well enough by the time I got to play SA1 and SA2, but I didn't know about JP version being vastly different (and superior in many ways) to official localization, and I'm not sure the re-translation mod was available at the time, so I played with the English dub. Still enjoyed both games.
That said, yeah, JP versions are better.
@@crimsonzone8984YT keeps removing my reply for some weird reason, so I'll keep it brief this time: I watched the 4Kids dub (re-dubbed in my native language) and played English dub at the time and I watched JP cutscenes on CZcams much later. I've yet to watch X in JP dub/sub. Despite this, I still enjoyed both the show and the games since I still got the general idea and themes.
Whenever Sonic tries to do a good story nowadays it seems to just be a good story for Sonic fans :/. Rather than just good story telling as a whole
Ian Flynn feels like a writer for the fans. But I don't think he's aware on catching a wider audience
@@rainopainoit's his first time writing for a Sonic game, he may have gotten a little carried away through most of it... we have to see how this goes and if he takes notes along his journey writing for the games
@aino That´s his issue. He is too derivative for his own sake, and personally I don´t want him writing stories due to the fact he is almost as bad a writer as Penders was in the comic run
EDIT: Fixed my grammar.
This isn't a recent thing. That's always been the case outside of maybe Adventure 2 and the storybook games, sonic stories aren't that good in the games outside of maybe sonic fans.
@@josuebarba9361 He's infinitely better than that hack Ken Penders.
I think having a simple and straight to the point story while still having slightly more mature themes and good characterization would be the perfect balance.
I think many cite Unleashed and the Rush games as good examples of that balance I think.
@@zjzr08 For real.
@@zjzr08 Best games in the series😎
I agree, it doesn't need to be overly edgy or something like that, but it shouldn't disrespect the intelligence of the players and kids.
@@justinarzola4584 Sonic 06 tried to be complex and failed miserably.
honestly, if we have a good game-focused sonic game for the casual fans that has a great story that isnt "super complex" and "deep", but instead has great character moments for the hardcore fans, we would have cured cancer. ;)
Wow, I’m so glad there’s a Sonic fan that can get out of the echo chamber and look at the broader gaming landscape. There are people that genuinely thought Frontiers was game of the year when it was no where near the standards set even in the 2010s
You know that people outsides the echo chambers do enjoy frontiers, right?
The stories in Sonic are very important to me as a fan, as are the characters. It’s the reason SA2 is my favorite 3D Sonic game, the story and characters. And it’s probably the main reason people have clamored for SA3 for so long. The main aspect of similarity between SA1 and 2 was the deeper stories and character work.
I’d also say, the success and excitement based around the Sonic movies and Knuckles TV show is down to how much fans love the characters of Sonic. And naturally, if you love the characters, you’d prefer those characters to be part of a similarly great narrative in the process. If the Knuckles TV show is a success, this is just more evidence games based around the other Sonic characters could succeed in the marketplace.
I think something like the Rush games or Heroes is a nice standard for the series to hold itself to (although those are pm the ones i grew up with so i maybe a bit biased). Stories that are definitely present, are mostly true to the characters, and have themes that kids and adults alike can understand and engage with, but are largely insular and can be easily disregarded or skipped over by people wanting pure gameplay. The every once in a while a big Unleashed style story game can swoop by to shake up the status quo and get superfans hyped again.
Personally I think it's not only okay but pretty good to have stories aimed at kids that tackle topics they can't or don't understand. For the most part children's stories that don't talk down to their target audience end up being the most beloved and impactful ones.
So much this.
I think it's not that hard to strike a good balance between epic, grander stories with character development and deeper themes, and lighthearted tones. Something like Battle, Rush or Rush Adventure's stories are lighthearted and don't have darker themes despite the time period they were released at, but they do take some time to develop the new characters they introduce, and they all end in a big boss fight oftentimes in space. Chronicles also somewhat did that, but that's an RPG, so that's the kind of thing you'd expect from a RPG story.
Sonic Team really needs to make more spin-offs to experiment with what they can do with their characters. It would give the B-grade characters the spotlight for a while, while allowing them to do stuff that wouldn't fly in a mainline game. That's what Nintendo did with the mario & luigi RPGs; they're far from being dark or anything, but they put a much bigger emphasis on their stories that you would almost never see in the regular platformers with the exception of Galaxy 1&2, and maybe Odyssey? I didn't play that one, so I can't tell.
I'm very surprised how oddly exclusive Sonic is to Sonic Team, where you would think he's a more experimental mascot than Mario; Mario has spin-offs that have him beat a dimension destroying villain so why Sonic can't have these focused story spin-offs too, right?
@@zjzr08 It's partly because Sonic Team is just an arcade division, with many of the employees liquidating in and out of the team. Sonic Team itself isn't even a proper studio. So as a result, you get a lot of spin offs with the Sonic Team brand.
@LoliconSamalik Wait, I meant there ISN'T ENOUGH Sonic spin-offs, just mainly Sonic racing and Mario Olympics.
Ngl Pariah, this seems like a criminally flawed argument. You're kind of forgetting the stories themselves were either not very good or the games themselves were terrible. You said yourself that casuals just come for a fun colourful game. Its not impossible or that hard to tell a story while having fun. Murder of Sonic is exactly a recent example of that regardless of some characterization issues. If that was stretched to a full game and was instead a platformer that was G O O D. No one reasonable would be particularly upset.
If I come for story and the story sucks in Colours, I'll be upset.
If i come for gameplay and the gameplay sucks in 06, I'll be upset.
Neither of these things needs to be mutually exclusive and this whole discussion kinda ignores that everytime one side was being pleased, the other aspect wasn't being fulfilled.
The only time things are at odds is when you get people who strictly are opposed to sonic stories but those wouldn't fall into your hypothetical either, those would be people who are ALREADY into Sonic but have latched onto a specific type of approach. That's dismissive thinking and as far as im concerned, thinking like that can be dismissed in itself.
Tldr
This happens because Sega almost never makes good sonic games also have good stories or good stories alongside good sonic games.
It's no surprise sa2 is still one of the most popular games by far, its one of the only examples in the 3D series where it's more consistently agreed on that being the case.
That is a very good point. Perhaps the reason people struggle to get into the stories is because they struggle to get into the games. There are few Sonic games that are well received and have worthwhile stories. But I have seen people who aren't super in to Sonic say they love Blaze thanks to Rush. And that game is both good and has a decent story, I'd argue.
Perhaps a game that does both well could get people to see how beneficial a good Sonic story can be.
@@Pariah6950 "They struggle to get into the games"
Why Sonic games seem to be hard to get into (casually) would definitely be an interesting video.
you right no wonder frontiers getting praised that much by casuals especially japanese than most sonic games. It has such good gameplay and story 🤭
@@Pariah6950Yeah that's what I mean by the 3D series. Sonic Rush is a perfect example to showcase the truth in that. Shadow and Blaze are both insanely popular and while SA2's gameplay being "good" as a whole can be debated till the end of time, the bottom line is it's passable and fun enough for most people to get into and it leads to them appreciating the story too. It's a game where they can enjoy one and appreciate the other by proxy of them both being serviceable and nothing being particularly bad.
Rush is that on an even more consistent level. It's a sonic plot with multiversal stakes yet the game radiates charm, energy and attitude with a great soundtrack and a really solid gameplay system that's simple enough to understand and get into.
If the 3D games were consistently good in these departments while even telling bat shit insane plots like Shadow 05 for instance, there would be far less of a major stink. Anyone worth their salt would want to play the epic new sonic game with the cheesy stupid stories they don't care about because they can expect a damn good game out of it regardless, everyone would be talking about its unique style and mechanics far too much to truly hate the storytelling and many would come to enjoy what it has to offer if they weren't onboard at first.
I am basically describing Kingdom Hearts here.
I wish Sonic Team made better games you guys.
Lack of story lowers a ceiling. A good game without story can be good, but it's unlikely that it will be an experience that will stay in your head for the rest of your life, create attachment for the series and characters.
Also, people seem to see cool anime action stuff as a selling point. There's a reason why Forces sold better than Mania.
You say that. But there are entire genres of games that people love dearly, and don't care even slightly about the stories. Fighting games, multiplayer shooters, shmups, etc. Not to mention entire industries of games with no story that people dedicate their entire lives to. Chess, board and card games, sports.
I get ya, but whenever people talk about those fondly, they always mention anectdotes and the like, which are, you know, stories. @@Pariah6950
@@Pariah6950 I don't think it is either or, but in my case, I found it easier to connect with my time in Omega Strikers (think Rocket League of Leagues) due to the visual novel mode and the fact they actually had a plan for the characters judging from their win/lose quotes. (I also think it was hard carried by music)
Fighting games benefit from character endings to help players find a sense of purpose or reason to connect beyond the functionality of them (this is before exploring story modes, fight intros etc). Some of the most popular shumps do have characters (Cat Girl without Salad is my niche pick, but just look at Touhou) since it is incredibly hard to sell shumps even if they have fantastic music, mechanics and overall presentation. Multiplayer only shooters still benefit from reasons to care about individual characters even if it is loose reasons, Hero Shooters blew up partially due to taking what TF2 had and rolling with it.
For some people, they will play Ryu because he is the default option in Street Fighter but others will connect with him even more due to how they saw him being explored in an anime, related to him in a character ending (not necessarily his), think the rivalry with Ken (who may be played by an IRL friend) is neat.
Personally, I could have just liked Hwoarang because he has red hair, kicks a lot and has a bike. The rivalry with the lead of Tekken 3 elevates it.
I wouldn't say that adding story or making anime chess (Fire Emblem) necessarily makes for an experience which is guaranteed to be the same experience but better, but we are talking about original IP which have the room to do more and even sports games have story modes with the real life stars or yourself being able to put yourself in the game or create a team.
Idk man, a lot of Mario games are constantly in my mind. Especially the ones i grew up with.
tho i will say the story could make the game stand out for itself more than the ones who non existence for better or worse so i could see your point here.
✅ The ultimate easiest fix for the people who don’t care about story is to just have a setting in the game that disables all cutscenes and dialogue and replaces it with bare-bones stuff that we saw in sonic 1,2,3&K. That way you can satisfy both crowds who care about story and don’t care about it.
Kind of like what Freedom Planet did.
That seems over complicated compared to just a skip cutscene button.
@@KaleSTUDIOS no both can exist. Fans who care about story will still end up wanting to skip some of the cut scenes if they play the game again. And casual fans can get the cut scenes skipped automatically for them and all necessary story elements can be presented in game like sonic 3 and knuckles.
@@Kiezly Then they should just click the skip button lol
@@Neoniq41 lazy
The reason I want Sonic's friends involved more is just for gameplay variety. For any video game, story is just icing. It can be nice, but having the cake itself be good is just more important than having icing on it at all.
I'm a Sonic fan, but what bothers me about the "story" of Sonic is how dumbed down it was over the years. We grew up with the Adventure era, where it was serious, had some dark elements, but still wacky and fun to explore. It was only after Colors that it felt off and why we have this entire converstion to begin with. If they had continued on the same path as they did with Unleashed, we would have appreciated every Sonic game in its totality.
Me anticipating the 2 hour long Lost World review
Me anticipating people actually commenting about the video they chose to click on and disappear instead of bringing up stuff that has nothing to do with the video they chose to click on.
@@LuznoLindo hey asshole, there's no harm for just saying that I look forward to a future review of his. So stfu
@@LuznoLindo I've looked around but I couldn't find anybody who asked
@@entertainer_ev2747 wow, you skipped over me, how uncool of you
A good story is a nice bonus
But people shouldn’t judge a whole game based on how good the story is
That would be dumb.
I’m looking at you Black Knight and 06 stans
@@Itz_Jello^^^ This.
@@Itz_Jello I love Black Knight but fuck this is so true. The gameplay of that game is such a snooze fest which is a shame because I think Sonic with a sword is cool as shit and with his whole gimmick of going fast, we could've had some crazy fast sword combat but instead were given that simple, sluggish combat that kills any momentum whenever you try to use it. This game is also Sonic's characterization at his coolest and most badass. This game really smashed it with all the elements except for the most important one, the gameplay.
@@SonicSwift99 LET. HIM. COOK.
No... Sonic _doesn't_ need a story to be good. But one thing that REALLY annoys me is that people use that as an excuse against people who say they want a good story. A lot of Sonic fans care very deeply about the story of the games, and there is LITERALLY no downside to having a more dedicated story tied into the game. Why complain "Sonic doesn't need stories" when we can just as easily say "Sonic is _better_ with good stories?" People REMEMBER Sonic and the Black Knight because of the story. If not for the story it would be a forgotten game, remembered only for being frankly bad. Even 06 is still appreciated more for its story (as bad as it is) than the gameplay.
Sonic Generations, the definitive "BEST" Sonic game in the eyes of many fans, is almost PERFECT, and the only thing really preventing it from being that is the story and lack of interesting boss fights caused by it. The final battle in particular is extremely lackluster because of a combination of terrible gameplay and no real story to back it up and make it memorable.
i 100% agree with you, while the story isnt necessary it is what makes the games memorable, for sure generations is arguably the best boost game in terms of gameplay, but the lack of story and involvement of other characters make the game not so memorable like others
Miss Stories like Black Knight
it's a huge shame we never got more storybook games
I'm still confident that Korone is the reason SA1&2 got the Steam release in Japan...
I think the perfecto balance Is to tell a simple story with secrets, likes mario games sometimes do.
They should leave elements of the story up to interpretation.
Sonic 3 and knuckles and mania do It best where the story Is there but It doesn' t feel like you are waiting for a 10 minute cutscene to end.
I love the story of mania because It leaves room for your mind to Imagine things that aren' t outright confirmed or denied
eh, i disagree
I think the part about the abusive relationship metaphor in Secret Rings is actually missing the mark a little - While it's true that most children wouldn't play it and understand what it's saying, media aimed at children has traditionally been about (metaphorically or otherwise) serious situations and different kinds of interpersonal conflict, even ones they may not encounter until they're well into adulthood. Every fairytale I can think of is like this. It's not necessary for the child to read or watch or play it and understand what it's a metaphor for already, it's for them to internalize a message presented to them in a way they can understand, so they learn something. I think pointing out that the themes of a lot of the 2000s games will go over most kids heads is a totally fair argument, but in this case I don't think it's true. I think we can praise games from this era for having extra layers to discover when you go back to them years later, without sort of implying that it's weird for Sonic to be the way that it is, in instances where it actually falls pretty in line with what kids should always be getting from their media anyway.
For what it's worth, I know a lot of people who got into Sonic as adults/older teenagers because of the 2000s game stories. Always thought that was weird and that the only people who were Really Into Sonic got into it as kids, but I'm constantly proven wrong about that assumption. I don't know man. I agree it's not the games' primary selling point by any stretch of the imagination amongst casual fans, but I feel like most people who don't care about the cutscenes just skip them, right?
Sonic stories overall aren't really important for the quality of the game, but they are a great bonus.
You hit the hedgehog over the head with this one. Great one 👌
for me at least, in sonic the story is what set apart a game i like and a game i love, like i really love sonic unleashed, but while i like sonic gens i cant really care about it
@@utrarafat I love Sonic Generations, despite its lack of story, but i also love SA2 and S3&K just as much.
06 is the only example where the story is mostly better than the gameplay( also the rivals games).
@@justinarzola4584 Some people also say that about SA2, but i love SA2's gameplay just as much as the story, si i can't agree to that.
06's gameplay is fun, but very janky. But 06's story is a mess, Shadow's characterization in it is great, but it's covered behind some complex nonsense that i totally didn't understand when i was little, but didn't care cuz of how cool it was. Also the romance subplot is really corny.
I think the stories arent the main reasons for the negative pushback of the 2000s era, there will always be preferences when it comes to story and thus complaining but I think the main reason these games were so heavily criticized was more because they were buggy, rushed, and or poorly thought out from a gameplay perspective, which made it easy to poke fun at their stories. And you could say that the way they came out is due to the focus on story but really if we look at some games without any major story or completely different tone, the real killer here has never been story, its been the dogshit way the series has been treated with its dev cycles and never evolving its good ideas. There isn't really an easy fix for that though, unfortunately, cause businesses will be businesses.
That's not to say that I think you HAVE to have story either though, I would greatly prefer it but some of my favorite sonic games are very minimal with it. However, I think if the core game is well designed and fun enough, people wouldn't really complain too much if the game went in a more story driven direction even if they're not here for that kind of thing. It really does suck that the state of the series is such that we have to feel like we have to pick and choose when many amazing games bigger and smaller have managed to perfectly juggle both sides of appeal.
There is a big difference between having a story and having a good story. Many established franchises make the mistake of taking audience investment for granted and simply _assuming_ that people will care about its characters and plot, whereas new IPs need to EARN that investment. Just shoving the chaotix in to complete some mission would be an example of corporate storytelling. Giving the chaotix solid interactions that make people enjoy their characters and a significant role that only they can perform would be good storytelling.
When I jump into an indie game like Freedom Planet, Chicory or Undertale, I have no prior connection to anything. Those games put in the effort and made me care about their characters and worlds. If you abstract the storytelling quality out of the equation, you might as well say Freedom Planet 2 is equivalent to Sonic 06 because both are mascot platformers with a heavy focus on story.
The "wide audience appeal" argument is one of the many poisons of modern gaming. If the only goal is to achieve success by appealing to a wider audience, everything becomes a homogenized blob of casual gacha battle arena vomit. The Pokemon franchise completely abandoned the concept of difficulty in pursuit of casual appeal. The Zelda series likewise went casual mainstream and I %~&*#( HATE IT.
Sonic's had its "meta era" of being silly and it didn't work. The franchise is still a laughingstock and it always will be thanks to internet clowns and people parroting their clowning as gospel. Dead Horse 06 will always be beaten. The 3D transition will always be rough. History was rewritten to claim the Adventure games were always garbage worth clowning on. History was rewritten to claim the classic games were never good.
I would much rather the creators quit pandering to haters and do something with confidence for a change. If you try to imitate Mario, you'll just be compared negatively to Mario. If you try to tell a story while being afraid to tell a story, the result is Sonic Forces.
I know someone who described sonic’s character as literally “bugs bunny” so I guess that’s what sonic’s character is like for the casuals?which especially after the 2010s isn’t surprising,and sonic’s design being somewhat inspired by cartoon characters such as Mickey Mouse with the gloves kind give it the message as well
Second most important part after Level Design
If only sonic could have the story telling of the kirby games then it could be good and keep all their crazy fucked up lore
Man this comment is 2 hours ago when this video is 16 minutes ago
@@Stickboy321Go
Probably patreon benefits
Yeah no
Story when done right only enhances the gameplay. For example, Green Forest on its own is pretty good, but it’s elevated when the context for running through it that you need to escape the entire place blowing up
You can also have one or two sonic games that appeal to everyone and once in a while have a game with a big story.
I think that we could also take it step further, Sonic is a multimedia franchise: people who as you said see Sonic as more like movie Sonic probably got invested in Sonic through the movies. People who grew up on the cartoons may want the cartoony things more, while neutral fans could really want whatever.
Probably the best approach is to alternate between story light and story heavy games to give everyone what they want.
Edit: I am not talking about making games like Sonic Boom, I am talking about flipping between simple and complex stories as they are doing more or less now (think frontiers vs superstars, advance vs SA2)
sonic boom.
click if that needs clarification.
boom was started as a n'attempt to have more variety, different tonics for different people, in extremes terms, sort out the identity crisis. instead, it made the crisis even MORE extreme, and sega does have a reputation for not wanting to retry something if it fails.
That sounds like an easy way to get tonal whiplash.
They should just stick to a story telling style instead of trying to appeal to everyone, because that never goes well.
This feels like the extension to your "What is it about Sonic?" video. And I love it.
It's my thought that the original Genesis games were originally gameplay showpieces; i.e. "Look at the Genesis, it can do physics! Is that the console or the cartridge? Guess you'll have to keep playing to find out!"
Come Adventure, that identity is lost, and has only very recently returned after a transitional period from Colors through Boom.
But I think, now, Sonic is really balancing the story-based identity with the gameplay-based identity. As someone who hasn't yet played Mania, Forces, Frontiers, or Superstars, it seems that we get play-heavy games in Mania and Superstars which are light on story, and story-heavy games in Forces and Frontiers which are more concerned with narrative than easy-to-understand gameplay.
I really like that. I think Sega can keep that going forever if they really want to. If you like Sonic gameplay, there it is. If you like Sonic story, there it is. Best of both worlds.
I wonder about a fandom divergence. Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic. They end up getting different games and becoming two different audiences, more or less. I wonder if we're currently in a world transitioning to that.
I'm sure you'll talk about that in the Classic Sonic video I'm watching next!
I care about the stories of Sonic the Hedgehog. I prefer the complex and darker tones of the adventure era, but I admit that the story was never important for the survival of the Sonic brand. It's just an added bonus for existing fans or for people like me and you who care about stories. Sonic got popular in the 90s because it appealed to the average person and the mainstream. It was a cooler, edgier alternative to Mario. Sonic's gameplay intrigued the masses and, at one point, he was more popular than even the red plumber himself.
I started out playing the classic games and then moved on to Sonic Adventure 1. At this point, I was obsessed with the series, but I was still too young to understand the story. However, when Sonic Adventure 2 came out, I understood enough that Shadow was feeling emotional pain and that he died at the end of the game. I felt an emotional connection to him and wanted to learn more about his story. Each time I replayed SA2, I learned more about him.
When Sonic Heroes came out, Shadow was back, and his team's story felt like it had some substance. I was happy to see him back, and the mystery of how he returned and why there were clones of him captivated me. This is where I started to appreciate story telling more, mainly because Shadow has been the only character to have his stories constantly connect with each title. Then came his own game, Shadow the Hedgehog 2005. I followed the development of the game and understood its structure.
When the game finally arrived, it quickly became my favorite Sonic game because of how dark it is compared to all the other games. The story was amazing, and it made me emotional when Maria was shot, reminding me of SA2. Shadow, at that point, was by far my favorite character. It's because of Sonic Unleashed's story that made Sonic my second favorite character. Until that game, Sonic as a character never appealed much to me, but the story book titles were amazing.
When Sonic Colours came out, the 2010s in general just butchered everyone, and I fell out of love with the series. Shadow and Sonic were not the same characters I grew to love. I'm still very much attached to Shadow and am stoked for Shadow Generations. I have never been this invested in the series since pre-2010.
The story is important for a smaller demographic, but this doesn't mean Sega/Sonic Team should ignore people like you and me. I think there is still a lot of money to be made from story lovers. They need to balance the series out with appealing gameplay and story.
12:44 the "NINE-UP" beep 💀
To me I think the audience that would get dissatisfied from Sonic having stories are a minority as well. And they aren’t as loud as the louder minority who want stories. Stories in Sonic also make Sonic be a more memorable franchise than the competition that don’t strike the same energy too.
I stopped caring for sonic stories after unleashed, honestly. Frontiers hyped me up at the time but I found the story of that game to be really disappointing (I'm talking before update 3. Update 3 really fixed it up) All the games between unleashed and frontiers had laughable stories, honestly. Frontiers is a hopeful improvement, but we need more!!!
Both Unleashed and Frontiers had really weird cutscene direction. The cutscenes in the Adventure games have definitely aged, but they're only as long as they need to be and make great use of their soundtrack. A lot of cutscenes in Unleashed are dead silent except for the constant flapping of Chip's wings.
Like it. It’s important even if it’s not essential every time.
The limited canon is a trying point. I’m partial to having wiggle room in that regard.
I've grown to agree with this. At this point the best we can do is flexible canon.
where is my wiggle room
There's definitely a balance, the stories being all serious and cool aren't the biggest factor for us enjoying the stories (at least for me, I can't speak for everyone) it's the characters, as long as Sonic is Sonic and he's on a new adventure and he acts the way he did in 1991-2009 I'm happy. Kinda like the Riders game's tone with less lore
That's why I feel the real split isn't classic/modern but instead Japanese/American. That's why the only Sonic show I actually like is X because it's the only show with Sonic (original Japanese version) in it.
Great, yea I agree with some of your points! I do feel like stories being almost complex in every Sonic game is not necessarily. Still sometimes having a impactful story could work. I think the issue is they just do it eiather to much or not at all in an era.
Sonic games didn't decrease in popularity in the 2000's because they had too much story, it was because the gameplay was declining in quality. I was so disappointed by how shoddy Heroes felt that I didn't buy another Sonic game until Generations.
Sega often make the same mistake of identifying a pattern but coming to the wrong conclusion. They thought Generations did well because it had Classic Sonic, but it was actually because they finally released a game that was polished, well designed and fun the whole way through (except for Time Eater lol).
I know kids' games are often bought by parents just based off the box art or something, but if the kid didn't like the last game they're not going to ask for the next one. For people who buy their own games, positive word of mouth will make a difference, especially when the whole fanbase is singing its praises.
Very true, the mediocre Mario spinoffs like modern Mario Party are carried by the brand in general (3D, RPG, 2D, Kart and Smash arguably always being great) as well as a good reputation in the past.
Devil May Cry 2 sold really well because of the hype from the original game being fantastic but DMC2 was so bad that the sequel had a slower start. I wouldn't be surprised if people bought DMC2 preowned since there wouldn't be a downloadable DMC3 demo and assumed that the series wasn't worth trying ever again.
@@thelastgogeta DMC3 is a great example. There's also the Paper Mario series, where the first two games had lower sales numbers due to the consoles they were released on, but much higher attach ratios. IIRC a GameCube owner was more than twice as likely to buy TTYD than a 3DS owner was to get Sticker Star, but since the latter sold more copies Nintendo just assumed that's what people wanted.
I notice I wrote a lot, so I will put numbers to order the text.
1) I dont know man, I disagree in what you said about the Kids dont caring about the Sonic stories. If you show a kid a complex story about a blue hedgehog with an epic narrative and great characterization, the kid's mind would be blown. As a guy who grew up with Sonic because of how interested I was in the Sonic universe let me say that some times the story catches the children first. As a child nobody says "look those cool game mechanics and game design" because at that age people are more concerned about the art direction, the style, and yes, the stories. Thats why there is a meme about children watching the box art of a game for hours.
Also there's a huge misconception about what age are the Sonic games appealling to. Sonic, as a lot of people say, never was intendet to appeal to "young Kids", since Sonic 1 the entire gymmic of sonic was that "Mario is for young Kids but Sonic is for the grown ups". Sonic was always a teenage franchise, even if of course a kid can play it too (because they are games for all ages).
2) I think that the people who actually complain are the people who dont even play the Sonic games or the ones that have a enormous bias towards the franchise. People who heard about the fame Sonic has in the Internet and repeat talking points like if they have actually played the things they are criticizing. Also because, isnt curious that all the mockery to Sonic stories begging (or at least grow up) when games like Shadow the hedgehog or Sonic 06 came out? The media was decimating Sonic at that time and a lot of gamers outside the fandom grew up with those stereotypes about the franchise.
With this I dont say that there is no Sonic fan who doesn't like Sonic stories, but I genuinely think that there are a lot of misconceptions because of causals.
3) And talking about them, this could sound a bit controversial but I dont think a product should ignore hardcore fans to please a bunch of casuals. I dont mean to say that sega should not seek for money, thats fine, its a business after all. But if a product experiment changes and changes everytime its trying to appeal to a broader audience then the product itself will became nothing. Its like the thesseus ship. Imagine Sonic now tries to appeal to the battle royale public (wich is by general meaning a gigantic mass of casuals) and make a Sonic battle royale shooter just to make money, that is still Sonic?
4) Esentially thats what I think about Sonic frontiers, its just a very cheap copy of breath of the wild with some copied aspects from Mario odyssey and with some bussy work instead of actual Sonic gameplay. The characters are bland imposters of what they use to be, more similar to their boom counterparts than the canon ones. There are more details but esentially what im trying to say is that the Sonic series because of casuals is not Sonic anymore, its just generic platformer #18282.
5) Casuals are important, but their opinions in the franchise should not have that much power that they have now.
Thats all, thanks for the video, was really good as always. I like a lot your content and I'm looking forward the next video. God bless you.
Postdata: sorry for the gramatical errors, english is not my native languaje.
You hit the nail on the head. It's like the thing with a bunch of people being exited over Amy using tarot cards and referencing them is so dumb because the whole thing initially with the tarot cards was to make her seem more like an average girl with typical, for the time, Japanese interests.
@@joshwillcox7141exactly. Nowdays the Sonic franchise is full of flanderization and "fan service" (null references).
@@benjaminaleman4003I read your comment completely and I agree. It is good that they want to try to reach a wider audience to obtain greater profits but they should not ignore the hardcore fans as that only generates controversies in the community. Regarding Sonic Frontiers, well, as far as I've seen, most are happy with Sonic Frontiers being hailed as a return to the Sonic era of the 2000s. Not if you agree with that but I'm just saying.
@@sebastianmartinez5963 you know, you asked just at the right time. Just Yesterday I finished the final Horizon after finishing the normal route, and let me say without a doubt that frontiers was a big scam. The "return to the 2000 era" frontiers promised was just a bait. I think that until now I couldn't find another video that sumarises better my opinion in the matter than the last video of jebtube. They are basically gaslighting us with superficial maturity just to push poor characterizations of the characters we care, and all of that inside an excuse that Sonic team pretends to call a "story"
This part Is edited but I forgot to say thanks for the talk.
the moment i grab my food and i notice pariah drops a new video. hell yeah dude
I don't want one OR the other. I want both. Good story, AND good game play. The game play and the plot are WHAT is happening. the characters and their arcs are WHY it matters - why I should even care about the existence of this thing. If I had fun with it, and it gave me an interesting perspective to consider - a gem to keep coming back to, then I'll keep coming back for more! if they are lacking in either area, then it'll most likely become a one-and-done deal with me. If they want me to stick around for longer than the quality of the movies, if they want me to buy more Sonic games than I already have, than they're going to have to give me both.
And if they need help with either or, then I'm more than happy to spout out ideas for them! I love making stories! Especially ones with meaning. But... what are the odds that anyone will listen to me, eh?
As a long time but not super hardcore fan I'd really *like* sonic to have good stories (younger me enjoyed the stories of generations, colors, secret rings, etc, the stories were a big thing there). As an adult now I really like the *idea* of adventure era storytelling. But it's a hard ask these days. I don't expect much sadly.
I'm going to be a bit blunt, I get that Sonic is targeted towards kids and all, but I'm not sure I understand the part about the thematics having to also be something a kid would be able to grasp. The example I always go to is 'The Incredibles' with its dark-ish story that no kid will get, but they'll just enjoy the good vs evil stuff.
So something like Secret Rings having a deeper theme of abuse is always fine by me because the kids who won't understand that part will at least be entertained by the good vs evil parts.
And sure, maybe it'll only be a select few who'd even go back to a piece of media years into the future when they're wiser, but those people will probably learn or understand something brand new they didn't before, and I think that's cool. It's that very thing that made me appreciate the pre-Colours era of games more.
I would argue that one of the main issues with Sonic in the 2000s era of games was that the games themselves weren't well received at all. Stories were just the icing on the cake.
This is a good video and while I may not agree with everything you said or Sega's business decisions, I understand them. However allow me offer some counterpoints:
1) While critics scores for the 2000's era Sonic games were worse, those are some of the best selling games in the entire franchise. And given how the budgets for game development at that time were smaller, I used those were the most profitable Sonic games. You said Sonic Heroes was a failure, but it was THE best selling Sonic game of all time (not counting pre-releases of old games), only recently it was surpassed by Frontiers.
By contrast, 2010's Sonic games was when sales for Sonic software began to decline in general, despite the praise that Colors and Generations got. Lost World and Boom are the two worst performing games in the franchise, Mania took 8 months to sell 1 million copies (not a good show for the "best Sonic game in 20 years" that costed only 20 bucks);
2) The world record for longest running comic book based on an existing IP belongs to Archie Sonic the Hedgehog. That comic is famous for the long complex storytelling that goes beyond what the games provided. If they kept going all these years, even after the fall of printing media, that shows how successful a story driven Sonic the Hedgehog media can be;
3) Sonic Adventure 2 is one of the most popular Sonic games, rivaling Sonic 2. It is one of the rare cases of a Sonic game breaking away of the Sonic community bubble and being loved by casuals - that includes Shadow;
4) Sonic X was a massive hit not only in the US, but also here in Brazil and many other countries. I believe in the US it had re-runs until 2009. That show presented the same stories of SA1, SA2, Battle, and a more serious take for storytelling with the Metarex Arc to general audiences;
5) Are we going to forget Sonic SatAM?
6) Final point: we live in a digital culture where every aspect of media is broke down and analised. Many cartoons and games nowdays become popular for lore and storytelling alone, despite their surface level appeal not mixing with this proposal.
It is not that casual wouldn't care about the stories and themes of Sonic the Hedgehog, it is that Sonic Team fucking sucks at presenting their stories in an engaging way. Frontiers at it's core has a solid foundation, it is a story about Legacy, but both Ian Flynn and Sonic Team botched the execution. Those cutscenes are all terrible, and the voice acting is atrocious. I'm working on a Frontiers rewrite to properly do justice to these misused themes.
And to end I'll leave this: casuals and critics didn't hated 2000's Sonic because of the stories, it was because they all suffered from rushed dev cycles that led to questionable game design choices, and broken unfinished game content. If those games had been given the time and care they needed, discussion around Sonic games would have taken a different turn.
Now pay attention to what comes next. If Sonic X Shadow and the Sonic movie 3 perform well, we might start to see some changes in how Sega treats the brand regarding storytelling.
Hello Sonic the hedgehog I didn't think you'll be on this video I'm a big fan
It's been said before, but the whole "cartoon hedgehog" thing is really dumb. Superheroes were THE biggest thing in cinema for 11 years. You also have series like Avatar TLA being regularly praised as one of the best animated series ever and just being one of the best stories ever told despite being a kids' show that aired on Nickelodeon. Then there's One Piece.
More fittingly, on the video game side, there's Kirby, whose ovecraftian lore is pretty much a meme.
I agree. But that does not change how the masses will respond to Sonic. You have to work in the real world. Not our preferred one. People don't take Sonic seriously. What do you do about that?
Superheroes are not at all as silly as talking chibi critters. Neither is Avatar (it has strictly humie major characters along with the spirits and critters).
Sonic is pretty much in the actual game canon rather than fanon or Western takes a series with the same tone as something like Dragon Ball: It's not at all an especially serious franchise but it has moments of pathos.
@@Pariah6950 You make them DO take it seriously by actually producing quality games, which is the sole reason Sonic is so looked down upon in the first place.
@6950You ignore them as they hate progress/cool things and were never the majority of the fanbase.
@@galten7361No, they are. A man in a bat costume? That's super silly as a concept.
Non human characters can be dark and serious.
Sonic origins made basically all the classic games to have stories
i am a new sonic fan i just started playing sonic games in September of 2023 i am 13 and i will be 14 this year and one of the main reasons i like sonic and i got into the series is the stories of the games and i don't think i am the only one who is like that so really stories can be good for new players but of course not for everyone.
This is a very interesting take on the subject matter. When I was a kid and one of my first experiences with Sonic was me watching the Sonic Unleashed cutscenes and a video about cool Sonic moments, I fell in love with how cool Sonic was and just enjoyed seeing him in any capacity. Even as a kid, I can't say I disliked Colours or Lost World's story. Today as someone well versed in Sonic (for better or worse) I don't and prefer when they try to tell a story but what I'm trying to say is that I am a living example. Sure I wasn't put off by larger stories but I also don't think I actually grasped what was going on in a lot of 2000s Sonic games or at least didn't until my mid teens. When you look at general audiences something like Shadow not being like he was in Sonic 06 or the continuity being an absolute dumpster fire don't matter to them. They see Shadow in 06 and Shadow in TSR and probably see nothing different and part of me thinks that's okay. People interact with media different and if a lot of people see Sonic and say they'd rather have light-hearted stories because that's what he'd look like he would do, I'm not gonna say they're putting him in a box or don't understand him like I do. I respectfully disagree but that's it. Also I feel like the most important part of a game is the gameplay. If the story is bad but the gameplay is good, skip the cutscenes and focus on the main attraction. If the gameplay is bad but the story is good, why even get the game. Just look up the cutscenes on CZcams or something.
Obviously as a long time Sonic fan I want good interesting storytelling but I don't think the series needs it. I also don't know how you would go about balancing it out so that everyone is happy. I would probably say try to focus on more Sonic Rush/Battle style stories where there's something going on but it's never breaching melodrama territory and then in between we could get stuff more akin to SA2. That's the best I got.
There's a video by SuperMarioT made recently and some years ago too talking about the importance of stories to the games and maybe how they can go forward in trying to make it a more fun experience (e.g.. not taking way resource from great gameplay).
@@zjzr08 I was actually going to make reference to a comment I made in that very video. The difference in the 2 is that one is focusing on my thoughts as a Sonic fan whereas this one takes the mindset of a general audience member.
@castform7618 I agree, but for some reason I feel "appeal to casuals" seemingly isn't the way to go?
We see that in Pokemon, where fans say "no cares about the National Dex because casuals don't" or "Paper Mario just needs to cute and fun" or something like that.
"Quality" over the quantity of fans I would like to have personally as I notice super mainstream franchises make some material be too safe to accommodate as much as people as possible IMO.
Also for someone that has reviewed the differrent Sonic stories, I'm quite surprised Pariah didn't notice some popular games that do have good narrative, unless he meant "dark" stories like Adventure and Shadow, like many new fans flocked for Frontiers despite it not only being heavy but also pretty dependent on past lore (more so in English).
Great video! It's always awesome when Sonic gets anime moments like Frontiers but at the same time it's probably best to appeal for everyone so that it can be balanced since ''funny blue talking hedgehog haha'' stuff like that. It's also sad to think that Blaze getting her own game wouldn't be received well just because she's not very well known which can quite sucks.
I think I disagree outright with the intro thesis of this video, that people don't care about Sonic characters thus they don't deserve time in the spotlight, I think it's the exact opposite, I think the fact that they've been mishandled (writing or gameplay-wise) if not outright ignored leads to people not caring or knowing them very well, but they have the style, design, personality and potential to be beloved characters not unlike characters far more flat like the extended cast of Mario playable characters, in mainline and spin-off games.
The idea that a lot of people want and that the general public wants a Colors-esque tone also seems pretty delusional to me when Frontiers has outsold Colors and gave the series an incredibly positive reception worldwide, the critics definitely liked Colors more as it is more polished, but I don't think the general public wants that, I think the general public craves a cooler, action, cinematic hero Sonic. Look at how people reacted to the Titan boss fights in Frontiers, flawed as they may be, casuals and hardcore fans alike ate them up, look at people like MoistCritikal talk about how great those hype moments are, I think Sonic found an avenue for success that may not be for everyone, but is the precise kind of niche that will inevitably be more appealing than aiming for the lowest common denominator - and to that end, I almost feel like you're mixing up tone and story all through the video, yes, stories, if there, shouldn't be as horrible as the one from 06, but pretending like this nebulous general public doesn't like Sonic being a shonen anime protagonist feels like you're just reading the room wrong if you ask me... Hell, look at how people reacted to Shadow Generations and all the cool stuff Shadow does in that brief teaser, not even knowing for sure if the game will *play* well or not.
If we're talking *story*, sure, I don't think every Sonic game needs a deep, long, introspective narrative or anything like that, I'm perfectly content with a game that is fun even if the plot is barebones, but there's a big difference in terms of series tone, and I don't think it's simple biases to say today's public demands what Frontiers brought far above what once made Colors popular.
Without the stories, no movies
Make a sonic with soulslike stories where you have to search if you want to know
You are the chat friend I've always wanted to talk to since I was a kid, with Sega's direction, I think this question should be asked to ourselves, and I answer, yes, I care about the crazy stories with aliens, gods , epic fights, time travel and everything else, I like games that are more straight to the point, but Sonic wouldn't be my favorite character just with a simple platform game.
I'm curious, Pariah. What are your thoughts on giving notable Sonic characters like Tails & Knuckles their own spin-offs so as better expand the brand similar to how Mario characters like Luigi & Donkey Kong have theirs?
I like the idea, but like I said in this video, I don't think it would sell.
@@Pariah6950 Well I meant from a gameplay perspective, not exactly from a storytelling perspective. I see a Tails game focusing on lighthearted, fun, Fighter Pilot type gameplay, while Knuckles would honestly fit better in a Frontiers-type game (but leaps better) where the main focus combat & exploration instead of Sonic. When I watched the Knuckles Divergence animation it showed me that this game honestly fits Knuckles' purpose as a game function.
They do not have the popularity to carry their own game, resources spent on those could be used to make the actual Sonic games better
@@kilometersperminute4113 🤨...."Tails...& Knuckles...are not popular enough...to carry there own games?" THE Tails & Knuckles, bro? You do know that Knuckles is getting his own live-action, 6 episode mini series with a Hugh budget right? Arguably, the second best part of Sonic movie 2 was Knuckles. So what was that about popularity?
neither does wario or peach but warioware and that new peach game still exists (wario land also used to be a thing)@@kilometersperminute4113
Maybe make a mix or both
With more accurate characterization of the he adventure and dark age games but more basic plots like the classics or meta era. Infact i think your Sonic Colors story idea was i really good example
I really do miss the heavy story games. I think it is possible to make the game to appeal to everyone while having a good story and the characters "right".
hello there Pariah695 , i watched your video and as always, great video that has very good talking points that are so reasonable and well though out , but i have a different question, What would had happened to the sonic franchise in terms of reception by general audience, had it been not just as good as it was in game play in early 90s , but also much more story focused since 1991 ?
this is a question that had been going in my head for a while , as it always fascinated me how Sega of America changed the localization off sonic abd made it far more for children back in the day , when sonic japanese lore, interpretation and story telling are quiet interesting , as sonic team used all that as building blocks for the story of sonic adventure 1 , but if we consider a possibility that we could've lived in a time line when sonic team had worked on with a hard ware that could've been strong enough for them to add all their ideas of story telling they had in mind when it comes to the classic games from their original manuals , with dialogue and with the same great game play we had back then, along with other media being more in line with the games rather than treating the character as a joke in some cases like in a certain light hearted sonic tv show, or in early archic comics , it begs the question
what kind of reception the franchise would have in the 90s if the games were far more story focused with out those stories being just told mostly in manuals, i hope you answer that question
Hey pariah very interesting video, really enjoyed it!
You know something that came in my mind (probably would be hard to do, but im just exploring possibilities) was what if they used classic sonic to give the casual players what they wanted out of sonic while modern would focus on stories with the more anime/serious tone. Not trying to say make classic sonic for babies,but for an wider audience, neither make modern SERIOUS AND EDGY, but explore concepts and themes that more hardcore sonic fans want in the stories. Classic would expand to 3D to not be just the same gameplay, kinda like expanding him very wildely so he could be the more casual, fun 3d/2d platformer while modern keeps the pace with crazy amazing stories. Idk man im just trying to so some what ifs, the styles could collide with each other, with one being more successful. Idk just having some fun thinking about this😅
Kinda long post but I wanted to give full context.
I've recently been reintroduced to Sonic through my sister's BF letting me and my young nephew use his Xbox when he visits. He's got stuff like Adventures 2, Origins, and Frontiers (Frontiers is very continuity heavy with stuff I barely grasp, causing me to want to know more) and now my nephew is obsessed with Sonic and honestly I think it's rubbed off on me. I never really noticed how deep the lore is in this series as a whole after looking it up. I'm thinking of buying some games for the Xbox with my friends permission because the available Sonic catalog on it is just so much better than the Playstation I actually own thanks to backwards compatibility. The question I have is if I were to buy the most story relevant games, what would they be? What are your suggestions for games that push the plot forward and are available on the Xbox? God I hope Sonic 06 isn't one of them.
I rediscovered my fondness for Sonic in general because of Shadow and Adventure 2 on GameCube. I can't help but stand by the idea stories in Sonic have the potential to enhance the games.
A better way to strike the right balance with Hardcore and Casual fans is to do what SEGA did in the 2000s and make certain games more story-focused, while others aren't. Hell, I'm pretty sure that's part of the reason the Modern/Classic split even really happened. So SEGA could p just do that again. Classic being for the more Casual fans who care more about the gameplay, and Modern being for the more Hardcore fans who care about the story.
Pariah quit stalling and make the sonic lost world vid already/j
Sad how you people comment just to talk to him like that. Can't even talk about the content of the video.
@@LuznoLindo it was just a joke + I feel like if I made this joke then gave my actual opinion it'd undermine it
Hi.
You have a few pretty large flaws in your reasoning and thoughts, and you throw in a bunch of false equivalencies to try and get your points across. No offense intended...but I feel like a lot of what you’re saying is very surface level. Either you don’t at all dive into the deeper parts of why something is the way it is, or you frame the argument in a completely misguided/purposely skewed way.
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1. The example you gave of your friend not knowing that Shadow dies in the game…. I mean that’s a really weird anecdote, but the fact that he had no idea what happened to Shadow means that he just didn’t play/finish the game before. There wouldn’t be a reason that he wouldn’t know that unless he just hasn’t played the game in a long time or just never beat it. That doesn’t mean the casual fan wouldn’t know that Shadow dies in SA2, that just means that your friend didn’t know that. It’s not like it’s something people bring up casually to Shadow like “remember that time you died, good times!” It’s really only a major point of question in Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog.
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2. “Do you think child Pariah had any idea that the story of Sonic and the Secret Rings was supposed to be a metaphor.” Obviously not. This can be said for a large amount of media aimed at children. There are LOADS of shows with hidden messages, themes and meanings that you wouldn’t get until you watch it when you’re older.
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3. It likely wasn’t your intention to sound disingenuous when talking about the extra Sonic characters…however saying that nobody knows or cares about the Chaotix and Blaze, while true, is not at all true for the reasons you laid out. The only reason people don’t care is because the stories in Sonic games are already written horribly so they don’t utilize their characters. You can’t make a memorable character if they don’t do anything significant. This is why Shadow was such a huge deal, not only was his design interesting to look at, he played a huge role in Sonic Adventure 2. Everybody knows both Shadow and Rouge because of that game in fact. If we look at Blaze’s shot at mainstream… Sonic 06 was graded so poorly that it didn't even matter if she was in the game, next to nobody actually paid attention to that game or played it in a serious manner, everybody just hated it and didn’t want to play it or played it for the memes, so any shot she had at mass appeal was squandered regardless of if they DID manage to make a good story for 06, which obviously the story was just as shit-ass as the game was.
As for how Sonic Team uses the characters… if you didn’t play the 1-3 games that decided to use one of these characters where they star in an, at least semi-significant role, obviously nobody is going to know them. It would require a story that features them in relation to Sonic, the same as Sonic Adventure 2 did with Shadow. This is ESPECIALLY true if the game they’re even from is on a handheld console which generally haven’t received much media attention regardless. A handheld character needs to transition to the main series in order to be seriously considered a part of the cast. Most Handheld characters can be written off as a one time deal.
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4. “Let’s not forget that the era of Sonic games that were focusing really heavily on story were REALLY poorly received by a lot of people.” You make the argument that Secret Rings, 06, etc weren’t received very well on their release and they were heavy story games. That’s not really why they were received poorly, it was legit because the games were bad. I dunno why you're framing the argument as though it was because the stories were too serious and thus that was what was wrong with the games. That is definitely Sega’s thought process, but it’s not actually what was wrong with those games, they actually just sucked as video games. If a game is bad, the story legit isn’t gonna be enough to carry it for the vast majority of gamers. This would be true for anything, not just Sonic.
To dive further, the worst thing about Sonic is that not only were the games bad, but the stories were oftentimes just as worse or just really flimsy in their execution. I’ve seen your re-write of Sonic Colors and you point out the major flaw in most Sonic stories; they just don’t use the time they have correctly and majority of the characters and cutscenes are completely pointless and/or underdeveloped. Majority of fans are invested in the concepts, and that is generally what gets new audiences interested in the game. I mean you literally argued this point yourself by bringing up Korone, Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 were heavily focused on Story, along with really fun and engaging level designs….mostly, you can show pretty much anybody SA2 and most of them become insta-fans.
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5. Frontiers is the greatest outlier of your argument because it essentially shatters every thought you had the video. It’s a game that everybody agrees is fun to play, both hardcore and casual, it has a huge focus on its story(albeit the story sucks and the references are often cringe inducingly on the nose). Frontiers even manages to change the formula of Sonic while also maintaining what they've been doing in short bursts. Sure, the story doesn’t matter and in most games this is often true, but for people that become fans of a franchise, that’s when the story starts to matter, and if your story is shit..well….
As a side note, I find it really weird that you essentially said Frontiers is trying to appeal to Breath of the Wild fans. Sure it’s open world, but it doesn’t feature next to anything that Breath of The Wild had. It’s more-so your stereotypical open world game watered down to its bare-bones. I wouldn’t imagine a single BOTW fan going “Oh wow open world Sonic, it might be like Zelda!” That is a genuinely ridiculous argument.
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There’s a few other things I’d like to point out, but I think this would be a good start for discussion, if you decide to respond. The only thing that’s going to make Sonic games good is to make good games.
If it's the main attraction as something like Forces, then it's very important.
If left relatively to the wayside like TSR, Superstars, or side games, then it's a nice bonus.
Note that this comes from a big goober who likes Sonic a lot because of the quaint world this cast of characters we've all grown to love has adventures in.
I like story in sonic but at the end of the day both of these things are true 1 sonic generations is a amazing game and very arguably the best in the series and 2 the super Mario franchise is successful. Enough said.
I am a REALY new sonic fan. (started with sonci movie 2) And i realy started loving the storys the charcaters the themes. (mainly because of your vidoes) But i dont realy know what the best idea is.
No matter how bad a story is in a video, I don’t let it ruin a video game for me.
Honestly I don't even think the general public cares about Amy.
Probably not. But it's too much of a sausage fest, so she's part of the main cast now.
@@Pariah6950I don't think that's really a problem. I know a lot of people love Adeleine, but Kirby usually gets away with having an all-male main cast.
Has someone whose first ever Sonic game was Sonic adventure 2, I would have to say that story is very important to me when it comes to Sonic games: I mean the lack of story and characterization is one of the many reasons I hated the Meta Era so much.
Shoot, I can even admit that Sonic adventure played a heavy part in influencing my decision to become a writer because of it's storytelling and characterization.
And on the topic of people saying that Sonic is kids media so it shouldn't tackle heavy themes: I don't want to be crude, but I find that whole argument completely stupid. There are plenty of kids media that tackle heavy themes, which I think should be encouraged because kids are not going to stay kids forever: it is okay, heck I'll go as far as to say it should be encouraged for kids media to introduce heavier things to prepare them for life beyond childhood
I think the importance of story to fans comes down to which they prefer more story or gameplay. Some people like myself would rather have the game focus on making it fun rather than making the story more interesting. While I would rather have both I do have a preference towards gameplay over story, and I think that idea is something a majority of new casual fans lean towards to. I think when it comes to story if the fans haven’t grown up with the series it makes trying to take the story seriously a lot harder since the characters don’t look like they would be in stories taken seriously
8:23 somecallmejohnny backpedaled on that in his Frontiers review where he started to get a bit more reflective about himself as a creator.
About time. He had no reason to have that opinion to begin with. Sad that it took a worse story than the ones he criticized to turn him onto the idea of dark/serious/epic Sonic stories.
If a game is going to have an anime, over the top story, perhaps it would be beneficial to spend more budget on advertising it as such, so players will know what to expect from the game and players who enjoy those kinds of games + stories will be inclined to try it?
4:00 i mean regarding the other sonic characters if sonic team really wanted to they could get them more public attention just by featuring them in more content
I do hope they make other character that aren't popular being relevant again in a story. I like what they did to espio in metal virus arc, i just wish they do that more in the game too.
in terms of the story that can satisfy both parties the tone that i always thought would be perfect for sonic would be like avatar the last airbender or teen titans or some kid oriented show that has the potential to tell very deep meaningful and adult stories
nice that your playing the best part of superstars lol
Lost World’s gameplay is pretty passable, but the story made me feel absolutely nothing and was the nail in the coffin for me for a long time on enjoying Sonic.
It's undeniable that Colors really tried to appeal to Nintendo/Mario fans. Then it was Lost World... That's fine, obviously. But maybe that look should've been saved for a classic Sonic game. I'm sure casual fans don't care which Sonic it is anyway and it look suit that whole look better while modern Sonic visit less cartoony worlds. If they had decided there's two different Sonics then their worlds must also have differences. Hopefully SEGA can try not to shove Green Hill into everything in the future. It's looking better now for the time being.
So the real question is: how do you make General Audiences™ care about the grander stories?
That's the sad thing: In order to do so, you'd have to dumb said stories down. Just look at the MCU and how dumbed down The Story of the Infinity Gauntlet was compared to how it was in the original comics.
@@LuznoLindoSurely that can’t be the only way. It’s not like the 00s stories are very complex either. I’d hate to think the average person is *that* vapid in the media they partake in.
Give them a game with high tier gameplay. If they have enough fun, they’ll probably be in a better mood to enjoy the story.
I feel like something the video forgot to mention is that the gameplay and polish of many sonic games with story have been questionable. This can in-turn impact the enjoyment of stories.
@@tjlnintendo Yeah, I was going to comment this too but forgot. Most of the Sonic games with good stories also have pretty flawed gameplay. That would reduce people’s patience for the story.
I thinks stories are important to a degree. It's like you said, the emphasis on stories compared to other mascot platformers along with the animesque style and tone is a big part of what made Sonic stand out from the others.
In regards to how casual fans and gamers see Sonic... i can see where you're coming from. I guess a good way to sum it up is that from a lot of their perspective, the series went from Looney Toons to Loonatics Unleashed.