Can one Speed Controller Run two Hub Motors???
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- čas přidán 16. 08. 2018
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-Hub motor MXUS FX04 250 Watt 36 Volts
-Controller 250Watt 36 Volts (can run halless)
-Speed Limiter D.I.Y
-Power Meter 60V max 150A Watt meter - Věda a technologie
0:31 I've never seen a motors looking so happy before
nice one
I don't know if anyone has explained this yet, but the problem is magnetic induction in one moter feeding inverse flow into the other. It is creating an oscillation back and forth between the two. As one spins faster than the other it acts as a generator to the other. This is demonstrated when you turn one by hand the other rotates in the opposite direction.this means the moters are constantly fighting each other. If you wish to run two on the same controller you could try either run them in series while doubling your voltage or add some capable diodes to prevent backflow. I would recommend two moter controllers however. One side effect of this is the dynamic breaking, so coasting would be an issue.
And also if these motors are brushless you can't control them with only one controller I think
I dont think you know how these
works yes they dont work together under load I tried but you cant connect 3 phase in series or ad a diode to a ac motor
Clearly people don't know the controller for brushless (AC) uses back feed or hall sensors to know how the motor is positioned. You can't hook 2 together and have the 3 phase timing correct for both. Now brushed (DC) motors you can hook up in parallel and it will work.
It is possible but the controller needs to be modified to stop the feedback from one motor into the other. Open the controller and double every output stage (at least you'll need another 6 N-Channel FETs plus 6 times the SOAR circuit) That way you give your controller a second Motor Output that doesn't feed back.
@@sebastianweinert3802 that would be two in one controller driver .. I think :)
not even one day past and I had my question answered super cool thanks to ev costumes for your time
By the looks of it, it seems to make more sense just to add a second speed controller ( or one designed for dual motor setups.) Either way, it's still a good experiment and I'm glad you took the time to figure it out so the rest of us don't have to
I'm happy to see that I'm not the only one who knows about amp load increasing to cook the speed control under load.
That was good.
He learns the lessons so that we don't have to.
Well done.
.
Hi sir . How to make a speed limiter for ebike? Thank you..
I have already video for that...
Interesting, I had not even thought about the possibility of running two motors on the same controller, but I find it an interesting experiment.
I have done such a thing although they are 2 hub motors on the same wheel wired in opposite directions. czcams.com/video/ViZZ0npJKg4/video.html
Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should do something.
I know this video is from four years ago. In that time period commercial e-bikes with dual hub motors have come to market. I have one. Mine is an EMX-Xtreme 500 from Fabulous Ebikes that has two 500w hub motors running on a single KT controller. KT (Kunteng) sell a controller designed to support two motors. In use I'm finding the set-up works really well. With each motor having 80Nm of torque the bike has relatively great acceleration and hill-climbing. On level terrain it appears both motors just share the load put on them by the pedal-assist settings. I can switch on or off the front motor while riding. On level terrain, switching on the second motor does not double the amperage draw. It stays practically the same whether one motor or two. On the EMX-Xtreme 500 the bike comes standard with a 48v 30Ah (1.440Wh) battery. With that I've had real world ranges per charge of 110.4 miles to 156.9 miles. Fabulous Ebikes also sell models with 60v 23.4Ah (1,400Ah) battery and a pair of 750w hub motors, again with a single-controller solution.
I wonder how they would act as two motor rwd cart. I would like to avoid using a diff.
old time big cassette recorder feeling
Oh yeah spinny matron drums
Nice. I’ve actually did the same thing but instead of one controller I did it with two 48v controllers and 2x 1000 watt hub motors. and rewired the controller to work with one throttle. My goal was for more torque but also gained a little bit of more speed from 28 mph to 34 mph
Forgive me if this is a stupid question Did you wire the same battry pack to the 2 controllers?
Did you wire the same battry pack to the 2 controllers?
@@vladimirryder5195 yea I did use the same battery for both controllers I also made it work with two separate batteries for each controller as well but I prefer the single battery instead.
@@tsmithurst yea I did use the same battery for both controllers I also made it work with two separate batteries for each controller as well but I prefer the single battery instead.
may i knw how to connect two controllers to work with one throttle..Thank you
The wise thing to do would be to use two speed controllers and two motors connected to a single throttle source. That's how quad copters are built. Each motor has its own speed controller, and the speed controllers are synchronized when you calibrate throttle position.
Yea but quad copters have to regulate all motors independently. The bike would be finde with them running the same speed.
Newsflash ! This isn't a Quadcopter !
blise and chris you are both right but its grossly under powered either way that's a 250w controller and (2) 250w motors in parallel whcih makes them running about 125w a piece. also by adding the other motor you are adding resistance (ohms) to the inner workings of the controller. you've effectively doubled the work that the controller has to do to put out that same 250w. it might work but not for long ESPECIALLY under load.
It would significantly bring the price up.
@@christopherroberts22 you should have said that before I tried flying off the roof.
Very good vídeo bro!
Your assertion at 9:29 is very correct. I was very glad to see that you do not recommend doing this. There are other reasons why this is real bad in real word usage. Watch what happens when you connect the 2 wheels to a common surface where the cant readily slip between each other. Or you can try using a chain or cog belt between them. In other words locking them to try to spin alike. You will burn things because the motors are never identical. I did these tests years ago with help from Neu Motors and Castle Creations.
The noise you are hearing is a harmonic vibration because of the difference between the motors.
Best way to do this cheap is use a common feed to separate controllers. But you can still get fighting between the 2 motor systems because of motor differences.
Now I had great results using the hall effect switches as regulators to make the separate motors spin at the same speed and stay synced. But that took more processing from outside the controllers. Now this could be accomplished with the use of Raspberry Pi or the like.
these motors have one way clutches, so one will drive and not the other until the tires slip. if load increases and causes a speed decrease, both motors speed decrea, so only the wheel with the bigger dia tire drives.
Will George
Interesting. So you lose drive if one wheel out speeds the other but you continue to drain power from your battery. That is a model of inefficient behavior in an electric model. Also the motors are still in essence still fighting each other in my book. The drive sides will always be hitting upon the other. I think it far better to control one then use the Hall effect switch to trigger control of the other. Then the motors will be synchronized. At least that’s how I see it. Maybe I should pull out some parts and revisit this issue.
@@michaelmeisman4731 I think it would be better to drive one motor only, then bring in the other if it is needed. really need 2 controllers
This procedure has been done by electric kick scooter with a dual motor like the Dualtron and others. Mine has a dual drive motor but use only one controller with the same kind of configuration as shown in this video.
If you had a 500W controller would that work?
Interesting to watch. Thanks for doing the leg work! Luckily the controller is the cheaper part.
Like stereo, harmonics on two slightly different frequencies due to the reasons you explained.
However your test stand may play a part in this as well but only testing would tell for sure.
Also, what if you added a third then a fourth hub on this stand and see what it sounds like then.
This test was very interesting. Thank you.
Nice , i think you may Use a chunk diod at the end of the motor on the left to not give a feedback voltage and try again.
Very interesting result! It points to high motor losses and ways to improve it. That fact that total losses are more than the sum means that there are high losses in the controller that increase as more motors are added. This will probably be due to the conduction losses in the controller it suspect, more investigation is needed.
Very nice that you show this can be done. Perhaps you could try the experiment again but with a higher ampage speed controller.
Or higher voltage🙂
Thank you man! Saved me alot of trouble!
Thank you mate..
Very good, thanks for video!
Thanks, an extra knowledge
Motar kro kia he
Running both like this will be fine but they will be noisier under load than normal as no hall effect sensors are used.
Controllers are cheap, so it would make sense to use 2 controllers, then you can use the hall effect sensors. They can both be connected to the same throttle without issue.
Very nice sir, now you kmow im not lying.. We used 1kw controller on 2 500watts hub motor. I think this setup will burn the controller if the 2 motor have load. Thank you sir
Yes like this can work but i not recommend because like this you will have huge losses...
Price sir 36volt
Really it would? I'm trying to get my bike to synchronize with all three wheels moving with pedal-assist for my trike
@@BORNFREEININTHACD Difficult setup! Though probably not what you want to hear the easiest, troublefree setup would be a single motor/controller front wheel drive. Spitballing here but option two would be a two controllers/two motors probable equipped with hall effect position sensors for both rear wheels. Would need some circuit/microcontroller to act as an electronic "differential" to keep both motors synchronized. Just a semi-educated guess. I have more then 15yrs of BLDC motor/controller experience but not in this application.
@@barthchris1 I have a dual motor electric kick scooter and I looked inside its only one controller the same configuration as this video. Its been using by the E scooter manufacturer with a dual motor.
Thanks for a great experiment! Newby here. I was considering upgrade options to a 750W48V folder, adding a 500W36V front hub in parallel on a shared 35A controller! hahaha... Maybe just add a 52V20AH batt-w/blender in a rackbag and upping the controller from 22A to 30A? Seems easier adding batteries to a single controller than adding motors...
with this sistem you can have a total traction on your bicicle , its a good idea good video
Induction resistance and feed back.
The pluses have a feed back and you're feeding them to the other motor, there is a build up which amounts to the "losses" you saw which is around 50% of the power (cycle).
Put on diodes and a load cap. Then it will work fine.
Isn't the controller and motors miss matched?
I would think there would be miscommunication with the hall effect sensors. They have to be able to tell the motor where the windings are but if both motors are in different positions the controller won't send a proper signal to the motors.
[Update on my build below] Great video and awesome (if utterly confusing and contradictory comments!). I'm trying to build an electric hand truck (i.e. convert one to electric) and although several companies make them, the ones they make are over-built for my purposes and VERY expensive (since they're build for industrial use.) I need one to help carry loads uphill on an elevated boardwalk to lake cabin. As far as I can tell, I want low speed and auto-braking and short duration (compared to scooters, etc). The distance is a few hundred feet uphill x 3-5 trips, the weight is
How about a used mobility scooter pulling a 4-wheeled garden trailer? Cheap and not a lot of work. And the kids love it with a big seat fitted.
Try with wiring 4 diodes (2 for each motor), in order to eliminate feedback loop.
I have 2 hubs at 22amps each 36v, I use 2 controllers and one throttle you only need the throttle signal wire on the 2nd controller, obviously, top speed isn't increased but torque and acceleration are great fun but due to lack of weight over the front wheel it spins on hard acceleration from a standstill and the extra weight is a downer. for the extra weight, I'd just buy a new controller with higher amps as long as your battery will take it, but it looks cool with 2wd and lots of people are interested and ask questions if you like being sociable.
How about mounting it to a common axle? I'm thinking of placing two direct drive motors from a washing machine (which are not the same as these but also BLDC) on the same axle and connected to the rear wheel via a chain. My theory is that if I place hall sensor wires to one of the motors and align them properly in phase they would turn just fine. I'd use a 2kw controller in that case.
Mr EV, apart from the uneven current voltage, are there any other problems, for using two bldcs with one controller??
with 2 controllers you still splice in both hall effect sensors for one controll, this is all you had to do and they would sync. In addition they are both running the same direction, one side if used on a trike would require you to swap any 2 wires on the motor going backwards around.
Question someone explain please , i thinking about adding duel hub motors kit to my wheelchair from a factory are the compatible with each other ? I'll like to know before purchasing this unit
Very good explanation thanks for the video my Friend🙌🙂🤝🤝🤝
Thank you mate! nice channel by the way..
From anywhere I can buy and exact price Good job 👍
I have tried too but in 500 watts and so far so good.
How kind I get some to buy in Holland
As a guess I would say its because of the Motor Sensors. The motos get to a certain speed and one of the needs a slightly differnt timing, but the ESC is prolly only doing the toiming based on one of the motor's feedback, then pulsing it the way it thinks it needs. Another intresting phenomena occured but wasnt mentioned. I noticed when he put load on the left motor, the right hand motor slowed down too. Thats going to be to do with the sensors, ill bet! Did you put the sensor wires in paralel or series? or not at all, or only hooked up one motors sensor wires?
I actually thought it would work because the motors are as you said identical. Neet thing to know.
well done for the experiment
i think we can't run the two motors with one motor feedback hall sensors
because it is nearly impossible as you said in your video to have the same position and same speed at the same voltage to synchronize the two motors it is like you run one of the 2 motors without a feedback just rotate the field that is the reason of the crawling and cogging (strange sound)
so i think we can run the two motors without problem only if we synchronized the sensors signals of two motor (maybe AND gate for the same sensor in both rotor for example (h1motor1&h1motor2)) so we guaranteed the same position of the two motors
Great idea I can use that advice for my bike thanks😎
Twin 350w hub motors in fat wheel downhill bike with 24v 500w bottle and rear rack batteries. Rear rack holding controller unit. All cables routed through jumbo alloy frame. Bluetooth the display and speed sensors. Thats a sensible build.
id bet that with some sort of suppression it would work. id bet the resonance is because the motors become slightly out of phase and start generating their own voltage which is sent to the other motor and back causing both to oscillate. could also probably wire them in series if you had enough voltage.
Nice video! Wake park,(for pratic wakeboard) wich this two motor like this, to pull like 100kg person for 2 min go and reverse, you think is possible?
could there be some -off road applications , such as -farming-mowing - hillclimbing , trail riding -ect...that allow for constant "wheel slip"? jeeps of yesteryear were kept in 2wheel drive , -on the pavment-because of simular reason , but off road the wheels slipped in the soft dirt/sand . no problems there , in the 4wheel mode.
Well with old school tech it's supper easy. Never tried with modern motors big enough to run a bike or scooter. However brushless setups in models are possible so long as you stay inside your power limits for the speed controller.
And if so how long do you think it will last how long do you think it will run with a atypical linthium battery or even a solar panel.
thanks, one question, this kind of motor does not have hall on it right, but if I have two hall sensored motors I could install it with no problem?
You need to add diodes (big ones) between the motors. You have back emf current going from one to another.
I will make one video with diodes my friend..
can i ask something, compare 2 controllers 2 bldc with 1 controllers 2 bldc, which is the best? and why?
Hi, I'm only newby and learning from guys like you. I saw that these motors can also be used as power generators!? Could you make a video of parallel discharging and charging on second wheel motor! Maybe on separate switchable set's of batteries as known that is harmful for cells to be drained and charged at the same time. Would be interesting👍 liked and subscribed already
Great vid, but would be better if you showed how to have them going in different directions like you would on a trike axle
I would like to see behind after he hooks up everything!
Hey, man, I saw in the video that you put both in parallel engines, I have to tell you that if you put a diode on his way out of any of you both engines would take the electric contrast between the two, and he would not stop, no one would move when motor tour. A greeting from Spain and I feel the translation.
Try some big diodes on teh phase wires to prevent induced currents from one motor screwing with the other.
Very Nice
I knew the experiment result before you started it, because of the physics of running BLDC without sensor. Of course, it's no point in connecting sensors together. This setup will work only in case the motors are ideally synchronized. Any small deviation will lead to oscillation in both motors and reading of feedback by controller will be something weird because rotors are in different positions. This "strange sound" is resonance of this system and in fact it sounds strange not only in resonance. All the time it's consuming excess power to keep oscillations going (but rotors are trying to sync).
It's OK to some point when motors are rotating independently without ground contact. If you try to place them on a bike and turn somewhere, there the biggest problem will occur because motor speeds will be slightly different. They can behave unpredictably.
Yes my friend we all knew the result... this video is a simple experiment. ;)
@@EVCustoms but how did you even have such an idea?) It's something like driving a car without differential, really, much worse...)
@@TechMasterRus Τhis idea comes from many subscribers, because they find it hard to believe that it will not work properly if we connect two hub motors to one controller...
and secondly, there is no video on CZcams to prove it, so I figured it out and created that Video.
Cool!! But I wounder if you could run in series instead of parallel.. would love to see this..
Sry if this question has already been answered ... with having only the stator windings in parallel and only one motor having the hall sensors connected to the controller, what are the result in Power consumption?
My thoughts ... having dual conflicting input signals is probably having an effect on the controller output. With only one unit giving feedback to the controller, the output frequency will be equal to both units, as the second is purely slave unit with the results being a closer to a doubling of the overall current draw. Now if that slave is proportionally under more load, what is the outcome?
Does the speed limiter come along with the throttle? What is the throttle you are using ?
Yes, of course, this is possible unloaded but with any significant load imbalance on either motor your looking to fry some FETs.
Really?
The sound difference is just an acoustical phenomena, since the two motors, even if are same model, are not perfectly equal , so there is some sort of beats between the two sounds that are not perfectly the same
Would this work better if you had a 500watt controller as both motors equal 500 watts?
The contrôler is processing the feedback from all hall sensor at the samedi time?
Awesome you could make a dual-motor ebike with this!
I didn't recommend that my friend..
I know it's just an idea
Dual brushed motors work and are easy.
Good to know, thanks for testing this. I've always wondered what a two hub drive would feel like, but figured the added weight wouldn't be worth it. It would probably make sense to have extra weight at the wheels for a very high power / high torque setup in order to keep traction. I've also been wondering if we ran a 1000w mid drive with a 1000w front hub motor would they compliment each other?
maybe, the weight might go abit off with the front but should be good
I don't think a front hub and a mid-drive should be mixed as you will never sync the two one will basically always be doing most of the work. You would never be able to sync the Wheel RPMs and depending on your front drive this may actually cause drag on the front wheel.
This could work if you regulated the current to produce the desired torque split. But you would need a computer to set the individual throttles. Your input to the computer would basically be a desired total current and it would adjust the throttles to each motor to achieve the desired total and split. That's pretty much what happens on the dual motor Teslas.
Hahaahaahah!!! Dumbest question of the Day ! well done ;-P
Excelente 🇩🇴🇩🇴🌎
So he joined the three individual wires from the motors. What did he do with both of the hall wires? Did he only hook up one of the hall wires to the Motor controller or both?
Hi... Just found it. Well done
This is sound beautiful
I I have one motors already dorms the second motor need to be the same and do I have to add a battery as well ?
Control individual 2 motors? Left or right? For wheel chair...... thanks
I tried using two motor controllers and two motors connected to one throttle. There must be some kind of feedback because the two motors spin and the power is good, then the controllers immediately turn off or go into so protective mode and are unresponsive. If I turn battery off and on they work again for about one second. Either motor and controller by itself works fine, but together they somehow interfere. The motors are configured (via activating learning mode) to spin in opposite directions since they are left and right wheels and their mounting locations makes that a necessity.
Perfectly fine for a slippery or dirt surface condition riding but not for pavement just like an all wheel drive vehicle in the old days when the front and rear wheels were locked together they bind up and often to get out of all wheel drive you had to back up.
That's 4wd, not awd.
Great experiment. Maybe have a bigger controller more amps
Hi EV-customs!
How did you build that speed limiter?
Hi, you will find it in my videos, Ho to Make Analog Speed Limit
Oh ya I see. So I am still wondering about speed controller kits for power wheels. I have the dune racer which has 2 motors in the back for the 2 rear wheels. The speed controller kits that I seen only has voltage +- input and voltage +- to motor. So it is going to be parallel if I connect both rear drive motors to one controller. I don't think I want to parallel it. How does traxxas emax work....
Is the strange sound an effect of Resonance vibration of 2 identical motors?
is it possible to run, along with your existing system(controller, motor and battery) another circuit with motor wired to a button/switch to a battery to act as a secondary for longer rides? 2 drive wheels, but different circuit for each, secondary being push button full speed to save on total battery power?
Please try them in series Please!
How many volts should have the battery for two motors that each have 1000W of power, connected to two controllers?🤔
The explanation to the big loss is magnetic induction. One motor create opposite flow of current to the other motor. To overcome the induction the control produce more current to overcome the induction to make the speed of both motors the same. Thats where the 26w came from.
Also the battery will suffer in when you use it with a load.
I'm interested whether 2 500w bafang geared hub motors would run upto 3000w and pedal like a normal bike.
Would you be able to pick those dual hubs Motors on a trike
The way trikes generally have a rear axel you might be better off with a “mid mount” style motor
Can put these bad boys on an aquarium. Anything really
@@DesmondCleaver you can even put them on your face
how can i move it in two directions .... can move forward and can move backward???
How do i make 2 parallel. Hubs and what do I need tolook out for?
Interesting :) so it works but with big losses
@@PHLocalExtremeSports Hi.. yes you can connect 2 hub motors 250W on one big controller,, but I remind it again that I do not recommend it... because of losses and synchronization of motors.
Yes... I didn't have now drownins... It is simple , you must connect hub motor wires in parallel without connections of hallsensor wires...
Yes my friend... If you see my motors are same brand voltage and wattage..
No, because something moves doesn't meant it works. Speed controller is not made to handle location info from two motors. Try dance to trance and waltz simultaneously, it will not work. This is probably more complicated then most of you expect. It's a continuous feedback loop between speed controller and motor. The speed control tell motor to move, then motor move and send info back to the speed control where motor is and the speed control calculate when to send next pulse in which fase at what voltage.
no it doesn't work.
Not sure this is a good idea due to back emf. I would say under load the controller, and probably the motors will run hot and with low efficiency. The controller uses the back emf for timing, and with two motors connected the timing won't be handled correctly. Interesting concept to try, but in reality it won't work well, or for a long period.
How much magnetic steel for 250W engine ? You disassembled ?
Yes, but badly. :P I tried this with a controller with hall sensor support. That particular variant ran faster with hall sensors enabled. So I lost a lot of top speed.
I suspect this’d be a lot worse on an actual bike. In this setup, the motors are free to ‘align’ their phases, as they’re spinning in air; on a bike, they’d be forced to travel the same speed (staying out of phase) or, even worse, to travel at different speeds when cornering.
Very nice👍
What is the specifecation for the weel motor ? Voltage and watt?.
Thanks
@Ev-Customs can this be done two 3600 watt hub motors?
Yes you can do it but i don't recommend to do this diagram..
Brushless motors cannot be connected in parallel or in series. That would only work if the motors were mechanically connected to each other in exactly the right position and the Hall sensors were only connected to one motor. Exactly this is not possible with our intended use.
Motors with brushes, on the other hand, can easily be connected in parallel or in series.
This was very helpful info since I own a HUNTER QUAD electric scooter. This scooter has 2 motors on the front wheel and 2 in the rear wheel. Each motor rated at 72V 3500w for a total of 14000 watts but it uses 4 X 45Amp controllers. I am currently modifying it with 2 controllers, 1 Sabvoton 72200 for the front and 1 for the rear with a shared thumb throttle. Here's a the video of the scooter and I am the person you'll see speaking on the video.
czcams.com/video/aBQfs0V3wos/video.html
Kya he moter ghar current se bhi chaloo hota hai kya?
im trying to find out the measurement between the spoke holes on my hoverboard hub ebike conversion so i can start to build my rim for my ebike.before i start to drill my holes for my spokes
0:29 LOL, Looks like a happy face!
How about the break sensing mode for the one hub between the other hub
This necessarily was running either sensorless, or with the halls from one motor connected.
In sensorless, the determination of motor position will be off, because current & voltage are used to determine that, and connecting two motors obviously throws that off.
The result is cogging which will vary in severity from loss of efficiency to burning out both motors and possibly the controller.
why do you ask not to connect the hall sensors due to risk damage but you seem to be connecting them is there a step your skipping ?