Top 10 WORST Smash Moves (That Used To Be Great)
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- čas přidán 6. 09. 2024
- Super Smash Bros. Ultimate is a pretty balanced video game, much more than the likes of Smash 4 or Melee. Part of the consequence for this, though, is that moves which were incredible in previous Smash titles had to be considerably nerfed over time. Today, let's take a look at ten of the worst examples I could find; moves that may not be useless, but are a looooooooooooooooooooooong way away from their best performance ever.
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#SuperSmashBros #Nintendo #SmashUltimate
Thanks for watching everyone, and let me know what your list would look like! There are a few moves I'm expecting to see pop up a lot in discussion, some of which I had my reasons for not including. I'll respond to some of the common comments below:
*Mario's up tilt:* This move is definitely a lot worse than in Smash 4, but some of its dropoff in use also comes from the nerfs to his down throw, which sends people more horizontally than in Smash 4. Down throw combos were a big part of why up tilt was so notorious.
*Corrin's Dragon Lance:* While this move is definitely worse overall, it _did_ get the ability to properly cancel it (a great buff) and still has a lot of other good uses, not enough of a gap for the list imo.
*Sheik's forward air:* This one pops up a lot and I'm actually surprised to see it, the Melee variant was certainly ridiculous but it's still a fantastic move in Ultimate.
*Insert X throw here:* If I allowed throws, this entire video would just be a bunch of Melee and Brawl throws.
*Ike's forward air:* I don't think the gap is big enough, it's still a giant, fairly safe sword arc that's great in neutral and for edgeguarding, it's just worse at killing from the stage. Does that suck? Yes. Do I wish it still hit like a truck? Yes. But it's ultimately mostly the same tool.
*Meta Knight's Dimensional Cape:* Yes, I know in Brawl there was a glitch that allowed you to infinitely disappear, but that wasn't legal in competitive play so it's irrelevant to this list, which is based on competitive singles.
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I feel like melee Marth’s dash attack doesn’t deserve to be on the list. Yes it has som use in combos but its not that prevalent.
Something like melee Marth’s grab or puffs back air would fit better imo
I definitely think move that could've been included is Wolf Back Air, while the move is still good it went from 90% of Wolf's gameplan in Brawl to mainly a more generic killing and combo finisher bair
@@IntenseSad The same could be said for Dedede's bair, though it's at least one of his few moves that CAN be safe on shield today.
Rest????
What about Smash 64 Falcon Punch?
Can't forget about mario's up tilt.
This move used to make you start the game at 40% but now it cant hit even when you are near it.
no joke I dropped Mario in ultimate because of this. His up-tilt was so fun to use in smash 4.
Mario up tilt: here's 40+ damage, oh, you died, here's 40+ damage again.
Just about to say that
I mean its still fairly decent but yeah the move got nerfed hard lol
@@randomness9721 To the point where I barely use it.
Maybe Sakurai meant Wario's punch is meant to give more feeling of impact rather than literal strength? That's what the comically sized fist makes me think
No he literally meant to make Wario more viable. He said that his new Fsmash didn't force his hurtbox forward like in Brawl, making it better. Needless to say he was trippin
@@CoinBox170Wait I thought he removed trippin
In Smash 4, Ryu's Shoryuken (a frame 6 move) was frame 1-6 fully intangible and was transcendent, and was also less laggy. Smash 4 was also the game where Rage was notoriously overtuned
“Haha you got hit by my frame 2 utilt, now you’re dead at 50%”
Shoryuken is still a very good move though
@@VB3Pac It's really good now, but it's not a frame 1 combo breaker unchallengable kill move that kills at 60 if you have rage
@@gbx4858 Kind of crazy how Ryu got so many beneficial changes in Ultimate yet his Smash 4 counterpart is still better because they overtuned the few tools he had
@@flamingpaper7751 Though in Ultimate, he’s a much more fluid character because he actually plays neutral instead of playing like an ape.
Hearing you talk about smash is really entertaining, so much so that even without a top player perspective, a standard smash ultimate tier list would be interesting! (For me. To watch. Maybe a boring project for you)
Surprised Shiek F-air isn't here. The angle it sends at in Melee gives me nightmares.
Sure, but it's now a super fast, super safe combo starter and opener for kill confirms. Its still one of sheiks best moves just in a different way
Sheik's fair was changed a lot and has a completely different function, but it is a stupid good move at doing the new function it was designed for.
Sort of like Luigi Fair, I don’t think Sheik’s new fair is a strict down grade. In exchange for it’s kill power, the move is now a phenomenal combo extender and poking tool.
I read that as shrek
Bruh Sheik’s f-air is very different in the later games. But right now, this move is MINUS 2 ON SHEILD, and is a fantastic & spammable combo tool. I do now know how you considered Sheik’s f-air to be on this list.
ZSS down throw was nerfed pretty hard between 4 and Ult. It went from one of her best combo starters into… a pretty worthless throw. Most ZSS players prefer to use f-throw and b-throw now to get positional advantage and start tech chases.
Every time I see Marss play he does down throw up smash up air to start a stock AT LEAST TWICE a set. Seems like a free 40% to me.
@@Sickmmaner That's a di mix up and even then usually not true. But it is somewhat of a 50/50 (kinda as I think floaties can jump out) as to whether they air dodge or not cause then you can punish with nair.
Throws probably weren't included to avoid a list of chaingrabs
@@Sickmmaner I’ve never seen him downthrow except to kill with it fit a challenge on elite smash 😭
One notable limitation to the recovery prowess of melee ganon's wizfoot and sm4sh's dropkick is that they aren't reversible, so if you're launched offstage facing away they're effectively no help to you. Still leagues better than ult wizfoot, mind you.
Tbf that wouldn't be as big an issue in Ultimate, because you always face the way you got launched.
Not really a firm upgrade.
Yes Melee aerial ver is better, but Ult has its major pros as mentioned in the video.
If it was a combo between those two high points, then yeah much better.
@@papersonic9941 This one fact is both useful and so infuriating since moves that do barely more than flinch you causes you to turn around so you go from inputting a good backair to a shit fair at times. I wish they put a minimum cap as to what turns you around.
Easiest trade off of my life
Shoulder Bash as Wario’s dash attack makes a lot more sense since it is a RUNNING TACKLE.
But the giant punch is so slow that it’s just MEH… Good shield break punish though!
Tbf Shoulder Bash in theory should be his Side B in reality
@@illford Project M Wario represent
Ultimate Marth dash attack is such an immensely awful move. Slow startup, very laggy, and is even harder to tipper than his other moves. Sour spot is so weak that you get punished for hitting it and tipper has zero combo potential and isn't nearly strong enough to compensate for everything mentioned previously. To me, it sits right next to Yoshi egg roll as a move that you just shouldn't use.
"Who's the wet noodle now, huh?" Roy probably
i know i’m late (3 months after the video upload), but here is what i think: it could be good if it was at least a better kill move with tipper, and if the sawer(?) spot was powerful enough so that we don’t get punish every time without it being too rewarding.
@@ssbplayer8117 nah just revert the angle. The angle was very beneficial to Marth and helped his gameplan
@@illfordfor juggles and combos ?
@@ssbplayer8117 yep
I didn't know that about ganondorf! it'd be so cool if his down special reset jump, you could do lots of funky stuff with that.
IIRC, Falcon's did the same thing. I'm pretty sure it was an oversight, but it made the move far more interesting, still had its fair share of risks (you move down while using it and your ability to gain height even with restored jump was still very limited, so, you're merely stalling your fall rather than actually moving up) and helped the characters with recovery.
They should have kept it if Ganondorf is a character that canonically flies
It's really funny how with Smash 4 Cloud they took Shulk's massive but slow nair and just made it as fast as a normal nair.
Marth Dash attack and Roy D-tilt both deserve their upwards knockback angles back, just for some variety. Actually, Roy's jab does a similar thing now as his Melee D-tilt.
Mach Tornado is okay as an auto tech chase and lets you escape from some out of shield options.
The shulk reason probably was because they were running low on space for the game
One more thing to add about peach’s down smash in melee: if you were very close up (close enough to get all the hitboxes to land), it would break a full shield uncharged lmao
I also feel like 99% of bayonetta’s moveset could be on here tbh
Nair and Upair could be yeah, but the rest of her kit kinda stayed the same
@@WaveAqualei Practically everything was nerfed to high hell except maybe like forward tilt
@@OrigamiAhsoka her moves have more endlag and landing lag but her damage output and launch angles stayed the same for the most part
@@WaveAqualei would be horrifying if they added her sheik's weaknesses too
@@OrigamiAhsoka kinda, i don't remember well, but couldn't pre patch bayo's fair kill at the center of the stage at high percentage?
I yearn desperately for the Ganondorf that is truly new and awesome while not knowing exactly what that would look like in the slightest lol. In other news: I like the facial hair :D
-projectile
-float
-trident
Honestly, dedede is a good starting point; tennis orbs are like gordo, ges got a big weapon that expands at the tip like a hammer...
I'm torn between desperately wanting a rework for Ganondorf and wanting to leave him alone because he's such a blast to play. That said, the two don't have to be mutually exclusive.
@@vaderwalks Maybe give him a stance mechanic?
maybe just give him an energy ball that you can hit back like tennis but it’s slow so it’s a good spacing tool.
Though in my personal opinion Ganon should stay polarizingly low tier like Mac, because if we give them too many strengths… they may become Melee Jigglypuff. Still Ganon should be slightly buffed.
His normals could stay mostly the same, his specials could use a full rework
Can we talk about how Wizard’s Foot used to not have the sweet spot ON the foot? My friends and I called it Wizard’s Ankle.
This may have been addressed already but is there any particular reason why these videos aren't on the main channel? They have the exact same production value and range of topics :o
He's said in the past that these videos take a lot less time to make than main channel videos, on the order of a few days rather than a few weeks.
And I honestly think "the exact same production value" is a little disingenuous - these videos are clearly meant to be somewhat lower-effort, and I think saying that they're the _exact_ same quality as main MockRock videos somewhat undermines the amount of work in production and editing that goes into main-channel videos.
Pretty much what SSM24 said, the first part of the AMA I uploaded last month on MockRock covers the philosophy behind MockRockTalk if you'd like more details.
@@SSM24_ I meant the production value thing as a compliment lol
@@VarsVerum I know, and it certainly wasn't meant to be a knock against these videos - they clearly still have a lot of care put into them. But saying it like that can also easily make it feel like all the extra effort that goes into main-channel videos doesn't matter.
I dunno, I'm probably thinking about it too much and either way probably shouldn't be speaking for other people so eh.
@@MockRockTalk I actually have seen every video of your main channel since smash 4... but never knew this one existed??
I think they should have a "timewalking" mode in smash where you play with the best version of every character, un nerfed and raw op
That would be sick but the issue is that the different smash games play very differently. Especially the older ones. So it'd be very difficult and probably time consuming to get each character to feel right
I would totally love if they did a Super Street Fighter II Turbo thing where you straight up got to choose which version of the character you got to play as. It'd be hilariously unbalanced (and in most cases there would be a "the" version of the character to play as, like 64 Kirby or Melee Fox), but it would be fun.
I think Falco’s dair used to have no startup, but it’s still a threat and devastating upon the spike sweetspot.
It used to have a 5 frame startup, be active for 19 frames and spike through all of them, have a massive hitbox and kill super early in melee… it’s not even close
6:47 Fun fact: Fox in Brawl had short hop triple laser that could autocancel in a short hop like in Melee, so it was just as nimble. It was Smash 4 that completely gutted lasers
Great list! Although I personally would’ve addressed Jigglypuff’s back air too. Yeah it’s still solid, but compared to the meta-defining spacing and combat tool it once was, a laggy turnaround bair just isn’t as good in comparison
laggy? it's -2
I would say that Rest is the one that should be on this list. It went from legitimately terrifying VERY early kill option to so weak that her smash attacks rival its power.
@@randumo24 i agree. You could literally kill with rest at 0% in melee
Jigglypuff in general is a shadow of their former self, weaker rest that only kills off the top (also doesnt always star KO which sucks)
Back air is worse, pound is more situational although its still an okay combo starter. Up throw now goes way too high and basically has no function except to reset to neutral. Down throw is also neutered now even though it seems like it can be a combo starter sometimes but is unreliable
Dedede back air. Used to be one of Dedede's most dominant moves in Brawl, in 4 onwards it's a sluggish worse version of his forward air.
to be fair, thats basically a whole different move from brawl to smash 4
Fair point, one correction: forward air is a worse version of back air, not the other way around. Dedede back air reaches farther, hits harder, and is safer on shield than forward air. Fair is a decent edge guarding tool, but as far as neutral is concerned back air is just 100% better.
@@randomness9721 Fair point, but Snake's down smash was covered in the video and that's as different of a "new move" as you can get.
@@cheesebossfinch8071 My bad, I haven't touched Dedede in any serious capacity since Brawl.
Actually that’s not that true since d3 fair has faster startup and aerial endlang and you wouldn’t want to stale d3 bair because it’s a great kill move so you shouldn’t use it neutral and instead use nair
It really is a shame that they didn't pull from some of the custom moves from Smash 4 when making Ultimate, there were some really cool/great ones.
They did
@Roger Loe And Shulk
@Roger Loe His Monado Arts in Ultimate are essentially the Hyper Monado Arts custom move.
@Roger Loe Ye he just got Hyper Arts
@@willycheez7218only Palutena’s and Mii’s tho
Here's my list of moves that used to be insane that are now just okay:
Marth Dair, used to have a spike for the whole animation instead of a single frame.
Sheik Fair, just ridiculous angle and hitbox.
Ice Climbers Dsmash used to have both of them hit both sides.
Roy's Counter used to have the same multiplier as Arsene and sue to the invisible ceiling glitch sent at a very advantageous angle most of the time
And Falco lasers, and mentioned in the video.
Marth dair is still super easy to hit,
sheik fair is crazy busted as ever, just different
Icies downsmash just used to be better as a sopo when you're lost anyway against a good player
Also the crazy inconsistencies of Roy's counter makes it so I wouldn't say its too large of a downgrade
is Pyra's down-air comarable to Marth's melee down-air?
sounds familer
@@goGothitaLOL Marth's is better. Every single frame has a spike, instead of 'just' the first half. But yes, that's the closest since Melee
Of course, you had to get the tipper, but his tipper is pretty big compared to Ultimate as well. And with universal hitlag higher in Melee, it was easier to combo into.
Sheik's ftilt > fair used to kill Falco at like 50% at ledge
@@givecamichips i think the tipper also outprioritised the sourspots
love the vid! in terms of other lists I'd like to see, I would love to see a video of the best move reworks in terms of design. You mentioned Snake's old down smash in this video, which is what gave me the idea. I would love to see a list retrospecting on moves that have gotten largely reworked like that one, ZSS's plasma wire, Shiek/Zelda's down specials, and other moves that have physically changed over iterations of the game.
Now this is a great idea
I wish I could move this comment up. Excellent idea.
I definitely question the decision to have two moves from Fox while leaving witch time as an honorable mention, but nice list and great video man
Another good choice is Mario’s up tilt. Infamous in Smash 4. Borderline doesn’t work in Ultimate.
if ultimate's ganondorf simply had better tools for recovery, such as the old wizard's foot you mentioned, he would be such a more viable character
if Ganondorf was actually Ganondorf and not shitty Cap. Falcon...
@@elmaionesosexo he was a bad captain falcon in melee and he still was significantly better than he is now. I honestly think part of his design philosophy is to just make him strong and bad, I don't get it.
@@zombieraddish i could get that, but they never seem to go to anything apart from, shitty Cap.Falcon
@@elmaionesosexo Project M gave him a float mechanic and his backhand reflector from OOT. It was a pretty elegant way of making him stylistically a lot like his actual character. Wish we could have those in addition to the sword stuff he has in ultimate
@@zombieraddish i would've prefeer redisigns for him and Sonic instead of the FP 2 honestly
Bruh, it took me a second to figure out what was different over MockRock’s background and then I realized he had not published since December. The red and green bg is back to green and yellow.
I miss red but the yellow looks NOICE
Ngl, I thought the red looked pretty great as well, but the green/yellow combo is way more on brand!
Marth’s DA sour spot should be the scoop and sweet spot be a kill move, think that would be cool
I'm fairly surprised Corrin's counter isn't on here. Could kill Bowser at 0 with a fully charged forward smash in smash 4, and in ultimate it got nerfed hard
True. In ultimate it's practically useless unless MAYBE for a counter juggling option but even then it's risky to go for and down air is easier to land and also autocancels early for a stall and fall making it relatively safe as long as you do it high up, so why not just use that as your counter juggling option. Corrin's counter in ultimate is trash at doing pretty much the only thing counters are widely used for in this game, edgeguarding.
@@JacobPDeIiNoNi It was kinda a dumb nerf, considering the utility of the rest of counters, especially the dlc
Gotta say, I'd love a list of like "Top 10 disappointing ultimate changes" where you just go off on the moves or design features that you dislike on a personal level, viability and power be damned.
Personally, I always thought Reflector having such an absurd amount of power outside of REFLECTING was kinda dumb anyway, so I have no issue with its nerfs.
problem is fox has very little use for a reflector. You'd rather just run and jump around the projectiles and not be stuck in endlag. So either the move needs to be replaced wholesale, buffed significantly so fox can use it, or given some utility aside from reflecting projectiles.
@@letsmakeit110 that's true, I wonder, what would you replace the reflector with?
While Shine was super overtuned in Melee, I don’t necessarily agree with this. I think giving moves multiple purposes is way more interesting and deep than giving a move only one strictly defined use-case.
Falco and Wolf in Ult are good examples. Both their shines have useful applications outside of reflecting projectiles without being broken. Fox really doesn’t, and he’s not a character that really needs a dedicated anti-projectile tool in the first place which makes the move a little underwhelming.
@@letsmakeit110 reflector is more of a mixup for projectiles now
I mean to be fair shine is never really used as a reflector in melee except for very niche cases. The main thing making it so good is being able to jump out of it and if you got rid of that it would completely gut the move and the character for that matter
Slight correction at 6:47 . Fox was still able to cancel his lasers in brawl; letting him get off a lot of free damage much the same way as in melee. In brawl he could even laglessly triple laser in one jump. But yeah, every game after brawl, then he lost that flexibility
Sheik F-Air. It's still got combo-ability and is definitely not a bad move in Ultimate, but it's an insane move in Melee.
I was suprised when i saw that it wasn't listed. Sheik could kill very consistently with her f-air in previous games and now she can only kill through confirms. That is a massive power-gap.
Going to just repeat my reply to another comment here:
but it's now a super fast, super safe combo starter and opener for kill confirms. Its still one of sheiks best moves just in a different way
Now Zelda is in a higher tier than Sheik, oh, the irony
@@Cristeve Sheik is better, and this is coming from a Zelda main.
@@Cristeve Not true at all
Nice haircut Mock looking nice
I think one of my favorite smash moments is a Brawl Doubles match where all 4 Meta Knight click Mach Tornado, all using it for a different purpose. One is recovering, one is edge guarding, one is applying pressure, and another is trying to get out of disadvantage. Just goes to show that game was DOMINATED by Mach Tornado.
Holy shit, how have I never heard of that melee Ganon down b property?? That sounds awesome!!
And funny, Peach's down smash in melee sounds like how people use Bowser's up b 😂
Yeah, a basic counter hit... but peach down smash can do 60% if the opponent tries to crouch cancel
I’d had mentioned Samus’s Missile/Super Missile from Melee to basically all games after.
What used to be one of the best projectiles in the game, could be lagless, came out very fast, and could kill horizontally
And now it’s pretty much none of those things, and hasn’t been those things since Brawl.
On the plus side, Charge Shot got buffed to the fucking moon, and pretty much does Missile's old job.
Ultimate Samus with Melee Missiles would be insane.
@@papersonic9941 She'd legit be like top 10, maybe 5. Already a top tier without it
@@papersonic9941 What baffles me is Mimi Gunner Missiles are super strong, fast, and recover way better than Seamus.
While also having a comparable Charge Shot.
The great benefit of Fox neutral B is it resets moves going stale so when you take a stock you can spam out 9 lasers in time and the rest of your moves are fresh again which is really good for rushdown
you have to hit a move for it to stale
problem with run and gun fox is 1.) holy hell does laser have a million frames of endlag now; and 2.) fox lacks anti approach tools. like if you try to dash grab fox he has to run away or jump. He doesn't have a big f-air or dtilt to challenge with. So immobile Fox just loses neutral, and being cornered sucks.
"Top 10 recoveries that should be better" sound great. I can think mac, ganon as obvious ones and maybe some characters like dk even.
All, or at least almost all of these, will be heavies. He's already mentioned in his heavyweight videos multiple times that if heavyweights are trading speed for survivability and power. Having a bad recovery takes away from the design. The biggest offender for me are the Belmonts as they have some pretty canonical insane movement, at least in the case of Richter.
Probably an unpopular opinion, but I'd say Jigglypuff's recovery should be better. As a mostly edgeguard centered character, I don't think Jigglypuff gets enough height.
Remember when people said Kirby's Down Air was worse than his Hammer even in the context of his kit?
Strange times.
Weirdos
Its def not as bad as hammer but its.. really bad.
@@teeby2037 Eh. Not conviced.
@@MrGameguyC alright
Still is lmao.
Snakes down smash change in ultimate confuses me so much. you're taking a trap/zoner character and taking away one of his best neutral tools that corresponds with his other smash attacks' aesthetics (all heavy military weapons with niche uses) & replacing it with falcon's very simple down smash. why?
Cuz he already has tones of trapping tools and his new down smash still tie into his moveset very well due to how many setups there are to it
It's because he's a cool character, which isn't allowed in Ult
@@willycheez7218bro I know you will say that whenever you can regardless how unrelated it is to the actual conversation
@@guacodile2528 No you don't, you don't know anything. And am I wrong? They nerfed him on purpose
@@willycheez7218 yeah, most of snakes kit is worse than it used to be. Maybe because he no longer has a 10 frame jumpsqaut.
Melee bowser had 7 frames. Snake lost an entire bowser worth of slow from his jumpsquat, making it as fast as melee fox's. This gives him far more mobility and removes what may have been his biggest weakness.
Also they turned side b from borderline useless to a better edgeguarding tool than some entire characters.
Snake is still really good, and very cool to watch imo
THAT CUT THO 👏👏
I'm surprised Kirby's up tilt didn't make the cut because it was a behemoth in Smash 64, it still works in Ultimate so I guess that's why
What. I am SHOCKED that Corrin Side B was not mentioned at all and especially not on the list. I think it’s a bigger actual nerf than a couple of the things on the list. Corrin used to be considered one of the best characters in the game back in Smash 4, but the new one in Ultimate tanked her so much, it just looks janky how little she goes.
How could they nerf my dragon princess???
Yeah, weird how they nerfed Corrin, some of the nerfs were unecesary considering the buffs they give to other characters that counter that...
I like how they changed Mach tornado, as a Meta Knight main. You can combo into it from a ladder if you are close enough to the side blast zone and sometimes in that situation you’ll die if you up b because you won’t be able to make it back. It also can destroy small projectiles(even tho he never had problems with them). Very cool move. *MK B META*
My problem with it is that it acts nothing like a tornado anymore
@@shattermelon496 They should've made it a multi-hit like in Brawl & 4 but made the final hit kill instead of making it just a single hit kill move
@@shattermelon496 it feels so weak without the multi hits, doesn't help it doesn't have enough knockback to compensate it
Cloud used up B out of shield for the 9000 time: "I'll stop when you let buffered nair hit a grounded opponent right next to me"
Seeing this gave me a really dumb idea for a Smash Ultimate Mod: *Peak Ultimate*.
basically, it would be a mod that would use the absolute best versions of every character's kits. Brawl Metaknight, Smash 4 Bayo, Melee Fox...the list goes on.
I’m sure it would basically as hard as making an entirely new game… which imo makes it kind of impossible to happen
-Mario's Up-Tilt (Sm4sh)
-Dedede's Grab (Brawl)
-Corrin's Dragon Shot (Sm4sh)
Mario up tilt is a good point, leads to nothing now and used to be amazing
With grabs though you'd just have A list of chsingrabs so I'm glad they're not on the list
@@kestrel7493 I'm not talking about chain grabs. Brawl DDD's grab had really good range and frame data, especially for a super-heavy. It was like a quick tether-grab & one of the best in Smash history.
Now in Ult it's just a standard, slow heavyweight grab. Not bad, nor remarkable.
I think Arcthunder deserves mention. It used to be the only reason to play as Robin
I'd like to remind everyone that shine is a reflector
i don’t think snake should count. it’s a completely different move. also, i think his brawl down smash would be completely OP in ult because of the different ledge mechanics when it comes to trumping and invincibility
Why not. They are both his D-Smashes and one is clearly better than the other.
That's like saying Zelda down special used to be better
What I expected In this vid: META KNIGHT
Clouds finishing touch was nerfed even more imo. It went from a fantastic combo finisher from falling up air and unquestionably THE best move in doubles to basically a slightly better falcon punch you have to charge
The fact that he's still top tier even with the nerfs show how broken he was
@@Sticker_By_NCT_127 the movement engine, better recovery, and nerfed shields also buffed him to be fair.
@@Sabbathfaax that's true, but would his sm4sh recovery be better since he had limit more often? (I'm not sure since I don't own Smash 4)
@@Sticker_By_NCT_127 can't always have limit to recover.
@@Sabbathfaax definitely not all the time, but more often than in ultimate since I believe there wasn't a timer on limit?
Something worth noting is systemic changes seriously hurt the usability of Fox's Blaster and shine and Peach's down smash BEFORE direct nerfs were applied. I get some of these systemic changes, though I'll never agree with them, but I'll honestly never miss a mechanic quite like how I miss land canceling projectiles. I would have taken incomparable nerfs to all zoners if using projectiles felt as good in UItimate as it did when playing Samus or the spacies in Melee. Would have been a really cool mechanic to expand on.
I’d say you can also use Mach Tornado as a decent panic option too avoid your opponent when you’re landing.
I would put meta knight’s mach tornado at #2 and put fox’s shine at #1. My reasoning is that you could actually SDI mach tornado towards the center and pop out and take minimal damage. Shine in melee defined fox’s neutral, combo, and kill game though and was probably the best defensive tool in melee. I also think that shine is a more useless move than mach tornado in ultimate since you can still use mach tornado to kill and recover while besides for reflecting, shine has almost all of its utility taken away with the removal of it being jump cancelable besides killing with shine spike really deep offstage.
There's no #1, the list isn't ordered
Little Mac’s D-tilt used to be awesome in smash 4, as it was one of his best combo tools. Was butchered pretty darn bad in Ultimate.
1: Had less knock-back, making it easier to combo into other moves. Has more knock-back now in ultimate, but is still his weakest tilt attack, and is almost impossible to kill with unless the opponent is at EXTREMELY high percentages, so what’s the point anyway.
2: Had 6 frames less ending lag, making it so that it could not only combo into itself, but gave him several kill confirms and true combos.
3: Sent the opponent straight up instead of at an angle, again, making it easier to combo into other moves without the opponent escaping.
Top 10 underrated/ underused moves
I think a more accurate title for this video would be Top 10 most NERFED moves in Ultimate. Saying WORST is kinda harsh and inaccurate.
To be fair, exaggeration is a good way to be noticed, and he is trying to make living off this stuff. Besides that, this is also a sorta tie-in to a previous video that had a reverse title of this one.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I honestly agree with you, I'm just thinking about why he probably did it.
@@plet0707 That does make sense. Although, it’s still technically a step closer to Clickbait.
Samus Dash attack should’ve been at least an honorable mention. What was once a fearsome combo starter became a generic kill move at high %
It's still broken tho so nah
I really wish they bring back the old mach tornado, I know a lot of people didn't like dealing with it, but it made fro a much more fun and interesting character, now it's just one of those pecial not special move I really don't like it.
Honestly, most of Luma's moves deserve a mention, specifically his Smash 4 gentleman, up air, and down air. These moves all came out ridiculously fast for just how much knockback they did. This is especially prevalent in the case of Up Air where Luma was notorious for taking stocks ridiculously early towards the top blast zone with a single Up Air.
Spoilers for the list:
Speaking as a Meta Knight main, I actually think Mach Tornado as it is in Ultimate is better overall. Sure it's not nearly as dominant as in Brawl, but I'd argue that's for the better. It's also just so much better than his aerials to finish those combos since you can cover such a giant amount of space offstage with it (compared to his other moves). It's certainly better than Smash 4, which was just absolutely atrocious, and it's a really good fallback option when you hit your opponent but need to also get away. That being said, out of all his four specials, this is the one I think deserves a complete overhaul or maybe even scrapping it entirely
13:58 You should've mentioned they basically turned it into its Dreadful Tornado variant from 4 in Ultimate.
1:56 You actually made that video now
Kirby Smash 4 Down B to Ult, lost the shield breaking potential
Kirby's Down-B has always been mediocre at best. It being able to shield break was somewhat nice, but it was a still a painfully slow move that mostly worked as a surprise attack since no one expects the Stone the first few times they face a rare Kirby.
Dude. “Shine” is called Reflector. I don’t know where the shine comes from
Bruh everyone calls it that what’s the point of being a smartass?
Everyone calls it shine because shine is less generic than reflector
Technically not a move, but ICs’ grab singlehandedly made them top tier in both Melee (before wobbling was banned) and Brawl and while their grab in Ult can still lead to death at 0 under the right hands, it’s significantly harder, especially since the second IC can’t grab anymore
this is the second video I've seen in as many days, where in talking about peach in a video, the commentator has played music from super princess peach and I'm just caught off guard from someone playing anything from super princess peach
Meta Knight's tornado even sounded extremely powerful in Brawl. The sound effects is kinda loud.
Honestly I am fine with Ganondorf having a bad recovery, what I wish they would have done with wizard's kick is make it projectile invincible so he can close in on zoners easier.
The guy really just needs *some* kind of buff for being so immobile. At least give him Tough Guy armor like Bowser or super armor on more moves than just Warlock Punch and Flame Choke. For being so strong and imposing he feels practically helpless when any moderately fast character easily turns him into combo food.
He should have an excellent recovery in my opinion, he's literally the heavyweight that canonically flies
Melee Ganon could do WHAT!
i’m gonna throw falco f smash into here as well, it was an incredibly powerful kill move that could gimp someone at like 60 if you hit them at the edge
I have been for the last few weeks going on youtube to look at a new video and now its here
I’m glad witch time was in this video. If you don’t know Bayo that well witch time is gonna feel useless so you have to really think fast on what to do while it’s in use. Mind you it’s probably one of the riskiest move to use because if it doesn’t land, you’ll get punished for sure
Exaclty, it doesn't work when the little flash appears, it's so short, and you'll get punished really really hard for using it.
Hell it completely shuts down if used against multi-hit attacks
I don’t like how Marth Roy Lucina lost the ability to air stall with side B. And I wish Doc’s cape also stalled in the air since it would help his recovery even more
Kirby’s forward throw is much worse because you could chain with it in smash 4, his down air used to be more consistent and send a bit further down, and his down b used to break shields if you got both hits in smash 4 (it used to have 2 hits now it only has 1), his max charged side b used to break shields in smash 4 too but that’s not as big of a deal as the rest of the nerfs
Edit: I wouldn’t have used 64 as an example of it being nerfed since kirby was busted in that game and it should’ve been nerfed, in smash 4 it was perfectly fine the way it was
11:33 on the topic of moves that deal loads of damage randomly theres smash 64 yoshi dair which deals 56% if you get all the hits (which is not common) and now deals 35 out of a full hop and 28 out of a short hop (with freshness bonus but its almost always fresh)
It was also frame 4 in smash 64 and frame 16 in ultimate
Although in ultimate it gained an Autolink angle which makes the ultimate version connect more reliably (still a big nerf tho)
New MockRock video goes live, time to scroll through both his channels to see if there is anything else I can watch even though I've seen every video.
Honestly surprised that Little Mac's KO Punch wasn't mentioned. In the transition, it lost KO power, had it's animation redone which hampered both it's use in combos and as a recovery tool (as well as lead to niche situations where you'd end up off-stage due to his jump), and the speed of the game makes both holding onto it/keeping it extremely difficult. Great vid though!
Surprised that G&W’s N-air isn’t in there, since Melee’s version is heavily buffed, I kinda wished that they didn’t resort to the fish bowl move.
Discovered you from Shorts. Thanks for making these videos. Quality content.
MockRock getting in shape? Nicely done my dude
Wdym I thought he was always in decent shape?
@@Metalc Huh, maybe it's the haircut?
Kinda surprised that Corrin pin wasn’t on the list. Like wizard foot still a really good move in Ult and it got some buffs, that said in 4 it just shut down the majority of the cast by itself. That move was the Min Min arms of Smash 4, it single-handedly gatekeept so much of the cast and was one of the best neutral tools in the entire game.
And oh man did it get gutted. I still have muscle memory of flying across the stage with the kick portion of the move and now it doesn't go nearly as far
I hate the fact that fox hasn’t been able to cancel his laser animation since brawl
8:34
Falcon punch: Am I a joke to you?
Haven’t watched yet, predicting ganon up air
Edit: wizard’s foot? Are you kidding me?
Not a list but I would love to see a video covering how broken mii brawler was in 4
7:03 ProGuides: ah just like Link !………did you also know links left handed
CZcams give me notifs for my favorite youtubers if theyre turned on challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)
Mockrock: kirby's down air isnt good
Me: dair ride... heard of it?
As A Cloud Main. IT HURTSSS. THEY TOOK AWAY MY BOI'S NAIR
You bringing up custom moves was quite interesting, honestly if we ignore the egregious collecting of them it was a sick mechanic and had a lot of good fun, much like RoA’s Abyss Runes (which also happens to have an annoying collection process, albeit less so).
Also you forgot to mention Kirby 64 Down Air was a shield breaker too, iirc the down air locks them into shield then you just link into like up tilt and boom, no shield.
Wizard foot sounds like a fungus infection, not a attack move.
Kind of disagree on Snake's down smash, yeah it's more boring but I personally much prefer its functionality to the landmine. It does decrease Snake's control of the stage but in my experience Snake lacks good, quick kill moves outside of his aerials or up-tilt. F-smash is incredibly slow, up-smash is situational, for my money Ultimate's down-smash is the best in most situations where you can't land up-air, back-air, or up-tilt.
Fun fact about Cloud's nair, in Smash4 the hitbox didn't actually cover the whole sword, its huge range came down to Cloud effectively stretching his arm, in Ultimate it was nerfed like the video says by changing the animation so that he awkwardly retracts his arm that way the Buster Sword doesn't reach as far, now, the hitbox still doesn't cover the whole sword so you could say the move is "double nerfed" making it way less effective, if the hitbox was fixed but animation kept as Ultimate's it would be a better move but still nowhere near as amazing as it was in Smash4.
loved the video! always exciting to see your uploads
Good job rockin' the goatee, man 👍