Had the debate organizers known better, this should not have taken place. It is a settled matter that the SSPX is in schism. Until the SSPX fully receives the reforms of the Second Vatican Council and live in full communion with Holy Mother Church, no theological or canon law gymnastics and media P.R. campaign by SSPX members, sympathetic bishops and media celebrities can rescind the consistent papal judgment that the SSPX is "not in full communion with the Church" (JPII, Ecclesia Dei; BXVI, Ecclesiae Unitatem; and Francis, Traditiones Custodes). In the July 16, 2021 letter accompanying Traditiones Custodes Pope Francis mentions the status of the SSPX going back to JPII: "The faculty - granted by the indult of the Congregation for Divine Worship in 1984 and confirmed by St. John Paul II in the Motu Proprio Ecclesia Dei in 1988 - was above all motivated by the desire to foster the healing of the SCHISM with the movement of Mons. Lefebvre." The SSPX is in schism. All the Popes from Paul VI to Francis tell people not to attend SSPX because it’s schismatic. Pope Francis himself says SSPX is in schism in his letter accompanying “Traditionis Custodes.” (Please read fully the papal quotes below). 1. Pope Paul VI’s letter to Archbishop Lefebvre on the (schism) withdrawal of canonical recognition from the Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX) June 29, 1975: ” … Our grief is even greater to note that the decision of the competent authority - although formulated very clearly, and fully justified, it may be said, by your refusal to modify your public and persistent opposition to the Second Vatican Council, to the post-conciliar reforms, and to the orientations to which the Pope himself is committed. ” Finally, the conclusions which [the Commission of Cardinals] proposed to Us, We made all and each of them Ours, and We personally ordered that they be immediately put into force.” Source: PAUL VI, “Lettre de S. S. Le Pape Paul VI a Mgr. Lefebvre,” 29 June 1975, La Documentation Catholique, n. 1689, trans. in M. DAVIES, Apologia Pro Marcel Lefebvre, p. 113. 2. Pope St. John Paul II on SSPX schism in his Ecclesia Dei Adflicta, February 7, 1988: ” In the present circumstances I wish especially to make an appeal both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal, to all those who until now have been linked in various ways to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre, that they may fulfil the grave duty of remaining united to the Vicar of Christ in the unity of the Catholic Church, and of CEASING THEIR SUPPORT IN ANY WAY FOR THAT MOVEMENT. Everyone should be aware that formal ADHERENCE TO THE SCHISM IS A GRAVE OFFENCE AGAINST GOD and carries the penalty of excommunication decreed by the Church’s law.” www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/motu_proprio/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_02071988_ecclesia-dei.html 3. Pope Benedict XVI in his Letter to the Bishops dated March 10, 2009:: “The fact that the Society of Saint Pius X does not possess a canonical status in the Church is not, in the end, based on disciplinary but on doctrinal reasons. As long as the Society does not have a canonical status in the Church, its ministers do not exercise legitimate ministries in the Church. “In order to make this clear once again: UNTIL THE DOCTRINAL QUESTIONS ARE CLARIFIED, THE SOCIETY HAS NO CANONICAL STATUS IN THE CHURCH, and its ministers - even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty - do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church… “This will make it clear that the problems now to be addressed are essentially DOCTRINAL in nature and concern primarily THE ACCEPTANCE OF THE SECOND VATICAN COUNCIL AND THE POST-CONCILIAR MAGISTERIUM OF THE POPES. “The Church’s teaching authority cannot be frozen in the year 1962 - this must be quite clear to the Society. www.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/letters/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20090310_remissione-scomunica.html 4. Pope Francis did give SSPX the faculty to hear confessions legally and validly, because it does not contradict Canon Law. There have always been exceptional circumstances or instances of necessity in which the Church recognizes as valid and licit the reception of sacraments from priests who may be immoral, schismatic, irreligious, laicized, or even non-Catholic, provided their denominations have sacramental confessions. Canon 844 §2. Whenever necessity requires it or true spiritual advantage suggests it, and provided that danger of error or of indifferentism is avoided, the Christian faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister are permitted to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid. Canon 976 Even though a priest lacks the faculty to hear confessions, he absolves validly and licitly any penitents whatsoever in danger of death from any censures and sins, even if an approved priest is present. While Pope Francis’ gesture of mercy shows an important precedent - for the good of souls, the Church has the power to grant faculties even to priests who are not in good standing - it is nevertheless NOT AN APPROVAL OF THEM - not an approval of SSPX, or their situation. 5. Pope Francis in his letter Misericordia et Misera, November 20, 2916: “For the pastoral benefit of these faithful (who attend churches officiated by the SSPX ) and trusting in the good will of their priests to strive with God’s HELP FOR THE RECOVERY OF FULL COMMUNION IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, I have personally decided to extend this faculty beyond the Jubilee Year, until further provisions are made, lest anyone be deprived of the sacramental sign of reconciliation through the Church’s pardon.” www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/apost_letters/documents/papa-francesco-lettera-ap_20161120_misericordia-et-misera.html Very clearly, Pope Francis’ motu proprio shows there is still the need for SSPX “to recover full communion in the Catholic Church.” Therefore, Pope Benedict’s statement on SSPX’s non-canonical status in the Church still stands. 6. Pope Francis’ letter, dated July 16, 2021, that accompanies Traditionis Custodes, specifically mentioning SSPX to be in “schism.” Here’s the 2nd paragraph, fully quoted: “Most people understand the motives that prompted St. John Paul II and Benedict XVI to allow the use of the Roman Missal, promulgated by St. Pius V and edited by St. John XXIII in 1962, for the Eucharistic Sacrifice. The faculty - granted by the indult of the Congregation for Divine Worship in 1984 and confirmed by St. John Paul II in the Motu Proprio Ecclesia Dei in 1988 - was above all MOTIVATED BY THE DESIRE TO FOSTER THE HEALING OF THE SCHISM WITH THE MOVEMENT OF MONS. LEFEBVRE. With the ecclesial intention of restoring the unity of the Church, the Bishops were thus asked to accept with generosity the “just aspirations” of the faithful who requested the use of that Missal.” www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/motu_proprio/documents/20210716-motu-proprio-traditionis-custodes.html 7. About the SSPX faculty to officiate in Catholic weddings (Letter from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith dated March 27, 2017). It states that with the diocese’s permission, an SSPX priest may officiate in a Catholic wedding but only if there is no diocesan or religious priest available, and the documents must be forwarded to the diocesan curia. It should be remembered, too, that in the sacrament of matrimony, the ministers are the couple themselves. A priest is only there to witness for the Church and receive the couple’s consent. Other than those limited faculties, the sacraments of the SSPX, although valid, are not recognized by the Church because, as Pope Benedict XVI writes, the Society has no canonical status and no legitimate ministry in the Church. 8. Many people, including bishops, who say SSPX is not in schism or has reconciled with the Church, should be able to produce a document similar to Pope John Paul II’s letter welcoming the SSPX in Campos, Brazil (now the Union of St. John Mary Vianney) into the fold, otherwise they should not be believed. Here’s the link to Pope JPII letter: www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=4141
I'm sorry that your comment was flagged for "review" by CZcams's algorithms and I didn't see it until today, four months later! Thank you for posting this. It deserves reflective, rational response.
the conciliar church that has emerged from that second Vaticab coucnil is not the catholic church anymore and the "modern popes " since the death of Pius XII are not pope . therefore end of the story , that modern concicliar church is a new religion, it is pretty clear that "pope Francis" is not catholic ........
@@elwoodpalmer7622 the way you think and reason out clearly makes you a schismatic like the SSPX members and symphatizers. As schismatic you are not in full communion with and are outside the Church. As the Fourth Lateran Council declared distinctly those outside the Church do not attain salvation and therefore they go to hell. You go to hell!
The Second Vatican Council was a council of apostasy filled with heresies. It taught that religious liberty is okay, that it’s okay to worship with members of false religions etc
@@deus_vult8111 The way you think is clearly that of an SSPX member or symphatizer. That makes you a schismatic. You are not in full communion with or are outside the Church. Latera IV plainly said there is no salvation (for those) outside the Church, you go to hell. Therefore, you go to hell.
IMHO both Michael Davies and E. Michael Jones are brilliant. Have some of their books and followed both of them. I love to listen to them debate. It’s not something seen all too often these days. I would love to hear their thoughts and a debate now (31 years later), because so much more has happened since this conference. I was very young when V2 happened, and saw how quickly the Sacredness went out of the Church. It makes me sad beyond measure. We Catholics have the Heavenly Gem no other affiliation/religion has… The Holy True Presence, Body and Blood of our Lord, in the Eucharist. 🙏
The SSPX is most definitely not in schism. Dr. Jones refuses to say that the orthodox churches are schismatic (which they are), but wrongly accuses the SSPX of schism. It's tiresome, counterproductive and he refuses to admit that he's wrong. Read "SSPX: The Defence" by Mr. Kennedy Hall for the truth on this matter.
Interesting that the modernists that have the high ground in the Church today and the sedevacantists agrees on that matter more than the conservatives and SSPX among each other.
@@nathaniellathy6559 we need the Novus Ordo done as Vatican 2 intended. This is what Archbishop Lefebvre should have done. Started a seminary to teach the proper and correct way of offering the Novus Ordo. In ad orientum, in Latin, etc.
"God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." John 4:24 To use one of Dr. Jones' favorite words, the argument that he makes equating disobedience to Rome with abortion is *preposterous* !! He then says there is no court of appeals higher than the Supreme Pontiff .. I beg to differ! In matters of conscience, we ought to pray that the Holy Spirit guide us. I will not entrust my soul to cannon law. If we are in a state of grace, then we know we are in full communion with God and can therefore test the spirits by following the instructions of 1 John 4:1-6: "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. 4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error." You can get tangled up in legalism and miss the big picture. I am not a member of SSPX. Just felt the need to point out the absurdity of some of the arguments made by Dr. Jones (who I am a huge fan of btw) Just don't get so caught up in a legalistic debate on Canon law that you forget who the ultimate authority is, and what Christ taught us was to worship in spirit. 😃🙏💯
A fan? You think the story about him being fired from Saint Mary's is truth? You think it is Catholic to speak ill of an institution and it's employees, because they fired you, for CAUSE ? And the CAUSE was not abortion nor an opinion on abortion. No, it is a mortal sin to denigrate others. The President of Saint Mary's was a devout Catholic married father of 5 and PRO LIFE. And he "supposedly " fired Jones because Jones was pro life. Total nonsense. How could Saint Mary's be OPPOSED to the pro life position when they HAD and HAVE a pro life club on campus? Did Jones ever return to the Catholic Church and faith AFTER he abandoned his faith in his teens?
There has to be someware the line where your intellect and conscienceis higher than authority. Simple thing, when fr. Ted Mckarick tells you that pleasuring him physically is necessary for your salvation, obviously you should opose with all strength. But soemon could ask why? He is the cardinal, not you, so surely he shoud know better what is good for your soul ;)
@@giuseppemilza301 Is the church the church? German bishops declared to build new church complete different from the old one. Bergoglio was voted by St. Gallen Maffia. Jesus and Mary, mercy!
@@michaelchmela921 All I can say to Catholics now; keep to the faith. Keep to you ancient traditions set about by Christ, whether it be Latin, Byzantine, or otherwise. The sacraments and Mary's grace will heal.
During a round table talk with fellow residents of South Bend in April 2021, he said he quit drinking, because he learned he could not handle drink. He never said when.
Rome is not breaking from itself. That makes no sense. “If this Roman See could fall and be no longer the See of Truth, but of error and pestilence, then the Catholic Church herself would not have the bond of a society and would be schismatic and scattered - which, in fact is impossible.” - Relatio of Bishop Gasser “But it would be contrary to the truth, if, proceeding from some particular cases, one were to conclude that the Church’s Magisterium can be habitually mistaken in its prudential judgments, or that it does not enjoy divine assistance in the integral exercise of its mission.” - Donum Veritatis “That which our lord Jesus Christ, the prince of shepherds and great shepherd of the sheep, established in the blessed apostle Peter, for the continual salvation and permanent benefit of the church, must of necessity remain for ever, by Christ’s authority, in the church which, founded as it is upon a rock, will stand firm until the end of time… Therefore whoever succeeds to the chair of Peter obtains by the institution of Christ himself, the primacy of Peter over the whole church. So what the truth has ordained stands firm, and blessed Peter perseveres in the rock-like strength he was granted, and does not abandon that guidance of the church which he once received. For this reason it has always been necessary for every church-that is to say the faithful throughout the world-to be in agreement with the Roman church…For in the apostolic see the catholic religion has always been preserved unblemished, and sacred doctrine been held in honour. …This gift of truth and never-failing faith was therefore divinely conferred on Peter and his successors in this see so that they might discharge their exalted office for the salvation of all, and so that the whole flock of Christ might be kept away by them from the poisonous food of error and be nourished with the sustenance of heavenly doctrine. Thus the tendency to schism is removed and the whole church is preserved in unity, and, resting on its foundation, can stand firm against the gates of hell.” - Vatican I Repent.
The bigger question is who was the sponsor who gave him $40,000 in 1979 to start a magazine and what were the Overton guidelines. Obviously he could write about Jews, Gays and feminists, but he steadfastly never criticized the Pope, Vatican II, avoided certain historical subjects, and never wrote about Saints or Charity to the poor. Can you think of a organization that might be in alignment with those positions and views ? Perhaps with a presence in south Bend ? Do you believe in coincidences?
Idk of youre American or not, but in the US it is considered more insulting to call someone you respect by their first name. Very common in Catholic schools for everyone to go by last names given everyone has names like Michael, Dan, Matt, John ect.
Man, I love E Michael Jones. Got confirmed into the church last year and have been trying to be a Catholic for the past 2 years. I have a few SSPX friends and a Sede friend and they all seem to have spirit of rebellion and excess pride. I appreciate how devout they can be and how seriously they take the faith and their conservative and political leanings but they're wrong and should obey the Pope and Gods church.
The old catholic and sedevacantist schimatics make the same argument lol. The Caticitsm defines the Church and the SSPX isn’t the Church I sympathize with their position there is a lot of scandals in the Church but we got to fight it Within the Church and not lose faith in the Church
@@lawmaker22 Catholic tradition is not breaking from the Church and going off on your own , (following your privet judgment as your guid , ) That is Protestant tradition, And choosing tradition over the Church is the excuse of every schismatic group that ever existed . Not saying SSPX is formally schismatic but the arguments used are the same ones used by other schismatic groups
Is he Catholic? Does he wear a crucifix, cross, scapular, or medal? Does he attend pilgrimages, retreats? Does he belong to a parish? Does he lecture on saints? Did he re enter the church after abandoning his faith as a teen ? Does he support his local Bishop and obey his bishop, when the Bishop tells him to stop writing articles on the Jews that contradict Catholic teaching? The Bishop is the voice of the Catholic church, not Jones. Jones was fired by a Catholic college months after he was hired for REASONS never disclosed. He has spoken negatively of the school and the faculty, ever since. What Catholic virtue is that? Does Jones give money to the poor from his 501C registered non profit, which is where all the money donated to him goes? Randy Engel did a deep dive on the tax returns of his non profit and wrote about it. Her article is " ALL the men behind the Opus Dei curtain." The actions and words of Jones in 1979 got him fired, got him banned from teaching at a Catholic school, and even banned from giving talks on Catholic school or church property.
@@scotttheo3711 - You are clueless. Judaize = to adopt jewish customs or beliefs. I am here to point out what naive people like yourself, cannot figure out.
@@maxsmith695 you’ve said nothing you are attacking my character without addressing anything! Judaizing is focusing on meaningless externals and missing the internal essence of the thing. IT IS MY IMPRESSION YOU ARE FOCUSED ON THE RITUALS AND NOT THE MEANING. MOST CATHOLICS DO! IT IS VERY ADDICTIVE FOR ME TO!!! RELIGION IS COMFORTABLE BUT NOT ULTIMATELY TRANSFORMATIONAL. IN MY EXPERIENCE.
I agree that SSPX position is logically inconsistent: if you have pope, you should obey. In this sense Infind sedevacantist arguments more persuasive. That aside, however, I would really wonder how Michael would modify his stance in 2023? Other side note - while pope certainly is ‘above’ canon law, he should not be seen as a ‘guru’ with some kind secret knowledge that he dispenses as he feels. The pope is still bound by Divine Law, as well as by need to be obedient to Christ, Sacred Tradition and his verdicts must be for the good of Church. That gives members of hierarchy as well as lay Catholics sufficient tools to hold pope accountable and provide correction - if the need be - of any wayward individual who ascended to the papal throne. Such correction can and must include, in extreme cases, acts of an open disobedience or even deposition of such person. This has been teaching of past popes and stands the test of time and all common sense! Ave!
You’d think over the course of becoming a doctor, EMJ would learn how to say basic words. “Schism” “logos” and even the name “Davies.” Jones is a short lived fad for modern trads who haven’t done much research themselves. He’s decent on economics but he should accept some humility on most topics, which he is no expert in.
Pronouncing it "ssism" and "lo-gaws" are perfectly valid. Note that he does speak at least 3 languages. I will give you the one about Davis versus Davies though
@@juliannkretonn4623 How gracious of you to grant the point that one of the debaters doesn't even know the name of the person he is debating. He calls him Davis at least 10 times and Davies 1 time from what I could hear. It's not a matter of pronunciation it makes him look like a fool.
@@Lazy949 Why don't you tell Peter how US bishops that doubt the dogma of no salvation outside the church are not schismatic but a society that affirms every anathema and dogma since the council of Jerusalem is for merely raising questions and doubts as to the validity of certain post V2 happenings.
@@tyroneulisses1764 no the charge of schism is in relation to the consecration of bishops against the command of the Pope . No one is charging them with schism for affirming Catholic dogma. That is a false characterization of the issiue
@@TheCleanTech The Novus Ordo stopped consecrating Bishops and ordaining Priests on June 18 1968. Bishop Lefebvre kept Apostolic Succession alive for future generations.
Had the debate organizers known better, this should not have taken place. It is a settled matter that the SSPX is in schism. Until the SSPX fully receives the reforms of the Second Vatican Council and live in full communion with Holy Mother Church, no theological or canon law gymnastics and media P.R. campaign by SSPX members, sympathetic bishops and media celebrities can rescind the consistent papal judgment that the SSPX is "not in full communion with the Church" (JPII, Ecclesia Dei; BXVI, Ecclesiae Unitatem; and Francis, Traditiones Custodes). In the July 16, 2021 letter accompanying Traditiones Custodes Pope Francis mentions the status of the SSPX going back to JPII: "The faculty - granted by the indult of the Congregation for Divine Worship in 1984 and confirmed by St. John Paul II in the Motu Proprio Ecclesia Dei in 1988 - was above all motivated by the desire to foster the healing of the SCHISM with the movement of Mons. Lefebvre."
The SSPX is in schism. All the Popes from Paul VI to Francis tell people not to attend SSPX because it’s schismatic. Pope Francis himself says SSPX is in schism in his letter accompanying “Traditionis Custodes.” (Please read fully the papal quotes below).
1. Pope Paul VI’s letter to Archbishop Lefebvre on the (schism) withdrawal of canonical recognition from the Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX) June 29, 1975:
” … Our grief is even greater to note that the decision of the competent authority - although formulated very clearly, and fully justified, it may be said, by your refusal to modify your public and persistent opposition to the Second Vatican Council, to the post-conciliar reforms, and to the orientations to which the Pope himself is committed.
” Finally, the conclusions which [the Commission of Cardinals] proposed to Us, We made all and each of them Ours, and We personally ordered that they be immediately put into force.”
Source: PAUL VI, “Lettre de S. S. Le Pape Paul VI a Mgr. Lefebvre,” 29 June 1975, La Documentation Catholique, n. 1689, trans. in M. DAVIES, Apologia Pro Marcel Lefebvre, p. 113.
2. Pope St. John Paul II on SSPX schism in his Ecclesia Dei Adflicta, February 7, 1988:
” In the present circumstances I wish especially to make an appeal both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal, to all those who until now have been linked in various ways to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre, that they may fulfil the grave duty of remaining united to the Vicar of Christ in the unity of the Catholic Church, and of CEASING THEIR SUPPORT IN ANY WAY FOR THAT MOVEMENT. Everyone should be aware that formal ADHERENCE TO THE SCHISM IS A GRAVE OFFENCE AGAINST GOD and carries the penalty of excommunication decreed by the Church’s law.”
www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/motu_proprio/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_02071988_ecclesia-dei.html
3. Pope Benedict XVI in his Letter to the Bishops dated March 10, 2009::
“The fact that the Society of Saint Pius X does not possess a canonical status in the Church is not, in the end, based on disciplinary but on doctrinal reasons. As long as the Society does not have a canonical status in the Church, its ministers do not exercise legitimate ministries in the Church.
“In order to make this clear once again: UNTIL THE DOCTRINAL QUESTIONS ARE CLARIFIED, THE SOCIETY HAS NO CANONICAL STATUS IN THE CHURCH, and its ministers - even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty - do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church…
“This will make it clear that the problems now to be addressed are essentially DOCTRINAL in nature and concern primarily THE ACCEPTANCE OF THE SECOND VATICAN COUNCIL AND THE POST-CONCILIAR MAGISTERIUM OF THE POPES.
“The Church’s teaching authority cannot be frozen in the year 1962 - this must be quite clear to the Society.
www.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/letters/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20090310_remissione-scomunica.html
4. Pope Francis did give SSPX the faculty to hear confessions legally and validly, because it does not contradict Canon Law. There have always been exceptional circumstances or instances of necessity in which the Church recognizes as valid and licit the reception of sacraments from priests who may be immoral, schismatic, irreligious, laicized, or even non-Catholic, provided their denominations have sacramental confessions.
Canon 844 §2. Whenever necessity requires it or true spiritual advantage suggests it, and provided that danger of error or of indifferentism is avoided, the Christian faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister are permitted to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.
Canon 976 Even though a priest lacks the faculty to hear confessions, he absolves validly and licitly any penitents whatsoever in danger of death from any censures and sins, even if an approved priest is present.
While Pope Francis’ gesture of mercy shows an important precedent - for the good of souls, the Church has the power to grant faculties even to priests who are not in good standing - it is nevertheless NOT AN APPROVAL OF THEM - not an approval of SSPX, or their situation.
5. Pope Francis in his letter Misericordia et Misera, November 20, 2916: “For the pastoral benefit of these faithful (who attend churches officiated by the SSPX ) and trusting in the good will of their priests to strive with God’s HELP FOR THE RECOVERY OF FULL COMMUNION IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, I have personally decided to extend this faculty beyond the Jubilee Year, until further provisions are made, lest anyone be deprived of the sacramental sign of reconciliation through the Church’s pardon.”
www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/apost_letters/documents/papa-francesco-lettera-ap_20161120_misericordia-et-misera.html
Very clearly, Pope Francis’ motu proprio shows there is still the need for SSPX “to recover full communion in the Catholic Church.” Therefore, Pope Benedict’s statement on SSPX’s non-canonical status in the Church still stands.
6. Pope Francis’ letter, dated July 16, 2021, that accompanies Traditionis Custodes, specifically mentioning SSPX to be in “schism.” Here’s the 2nd paragraph, fully quoted:
“Most people understand the motives that prompted St. John Paul II and Benedict XVI to allow the use of the Roman Missal, promulgated by St. Pius V and edited by St. John XXIII in 1962, for the Eucharistic Sacrifice. The faculty - granted by the indult of the Congregation for Divine Worship in 1984 and confirmed by St. John Paul II in the Motu Proprio Ecclesia Dei in 1988 - was above all MOTIVATED BY THE DESIRE TO FOSTER THE HEALING OF THE SCHISM WITH THE MOVEMENT OF MONS. LEFEBVRE. With the ecclesial intention of restoring the unity of the Church, the Bishops were thus asked to accept with generosity the “just aspirations” of the faithful who requested the use of that Missal.”
www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/motu_proprio/documents/20210716-motu-proprio-traditionis-custodes.html
7. About the SSPX faculty to officiate in Catholic weddings (Letter from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith dated March 27, 2017). It states that with the diocese’s permission, an SSPX priest may officiate in a Catholic wedding but only if there is no diocesan or religious priest available, and the documents must be forwarded to the diocesan curia. It should be remembered, too, that in the sacrament of matrimony, the ministers are the couple themselves. A priest is only there to witness for the Church and receive the couple’s consent.
Other than those limited faculties, the sacraments of the SSPX, although valid, are not recognized by the Church because, as Pope Benedict XVI writes, the Society has no canonical status and no legitimate ministry in the Church.
8. Many people, including bishops, who say SSPX is not in schism or has reconciled with the Church, should be able to produce a document similar to Pope John Paul II’s letter welcoming the SSPX in Campos, Brazil (now the Union of St. John Mary Vianney) into the fold, otherwise they should not be believed. Here’s the link to Pope JPII letter:
www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=4141
I'm sorry that your comment was flagged for "review" by CZcams's algorithms and I didn't see it until today, four months later! Thank you for posting this. It deserves reflective, rational response.
the conciliar church that has emerged from that second Vaticab coucnil is not the catholic church anymore and the "modern popes " since the death of Pius XII are not pope . therefore end of the story , that modern concicliar church is a new religion, it is pretty clear that "pope Francis" is not catholic ........
@@elwoodpalmer7622 the way you think and reason out clearly makes you a schismatic like the SSPX members and symphatizers. As schismatic you are not in full communion with and are outside the Church. As the Fourth Lateran Council declared distinctly those outside the Church do not attain salvation and therefore they go to hell. You go to hell!
The Second Vatican Council was a council of apostasy filled with heresies. It taught that religious liberty is okay, that it’s okay to worship with members of false religions etc
@@deus_vult8111 The way you think is clearly that of an SSPX member or symphatizer. That makes you a schismatic. You are not in full communion with or are outside the Church. Latera IV plainly said there is no salvation (for those) outside the Church, you go to hell. Therefore, you go to hell.
IMHO both Michael Davies and E. Michael Jones are brilliant. Have some of their books and followed both of them. I love to listen to them debate. It’s not something seen all too often these days. I would love to hear their thoughts and a debate now (31 years later), because so much more has happened since this conference. I was very young when V2 happened, and saw how quickly the Sacredness went out of the Church. It makes me sad beyond measure. We Catholics have the Heavenly Gem no other affiliation/religion has… The Holy True Presence, Body and Blood of our Lord, in the Eucharist. 🙏
The SSPX is most definitely not in schism. Dr. Jones refuses to say that the orthodox churches are schismatic (which they are), but wrongly accuses the SSPX of schism. It's tiresome, counterproductive and he refuses to admit that he's wrong. Read "SSPX: The Defence" by Mr. Kennedy Hall for the truth on this matter.
Interesting that the modernists that have the high ground in the Church today and the sedevacantists agrees on that matter more than the conservatives and SSPX among each other.
The devil brilliantly deceives the proud.
Now we really need SSPX
No we don't
@@LuisRamirez-vv4dk don't need Novus Ordo.
@@nathaniellathy6559 Good for you, lol
@@nathaniellathy6559 we need the Novus Ordo done as Vatican 2 intended. This is what Archbishop Lefebvre should have done. Started a seminary to teach the proper and correct way of offering the Novus Ordo. In ad orientum, in Latin, etc.
@@lichonski128 better just to stay with TLM.Already done correct and in Latin.Modernists put Novus Ordo in place to end the Mass
"God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." John 4:24
To use one of Dr. Jones' favorite words, the argument that he makes equating disobedience to Rome with abortion is *preposterous* !!
He then says there is no court of appeals higher than the Supreme Pontiff .. I beg to differ!
In matters of conscience, we ought to pray that the Holy Spirit guide us. I will not entrust my soul to cannon law. If we are in a state of grace, then we know we are in full communion with God and can therefore test the spirits by following the instructions of
1 John 4:1-6:
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. 4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error."
You can get tangled up in legalism and miss the big picture. I am not a member of SSPX. Just felt the need to point out the absurdity of some of the arguments made by Dr. Jones (who I am a huge fan of btw)
Just don't get so caught up in a legalistic debate on Canon law that you forget who the ultimate authority is, and what Christ taught us was to worship in spirit.
😃🙏💯
A fan? You think the story about him being fired from Saint Mary's is truth? You think it is Catholic to speak ill of an institution and it's employees, because they fired you, for CAUSE ? And the CAUSE was not abortion nor an opinion on abortion.
No, it is a mortal sin to denigrate others.
The President of Saint Mary's was a devout Catholic married father of 5 and PRO LIFE. And he "supposedly " fired Jones because Jones was pro life. Total nonsense.
How could Saint Mary's be OPPOSED to the pro life position when they HAD and HAVE a pro life club on campus?
Did Jones ever return to the Catholic Church and faith AFTER he abandoned his faith in his teens?
No, the SSPX is not in schism. The Novus Ordo church has been in schism since 1970, with the promotion of the New Mass
When has the Church declared herself to be in schism with herself?
@@martin-458read Quo Primum.
This one didn't age well seeing as how the excommunication was undone and they were shown to not have been schismatic. Novus Ordo L, TLM W.
What do you mean?
EMJ is very cool to watch and listen.
SSPX > EMJ
@@deus_vult8111what brings you here?
There has to be someware the line where your intellect and conscienceis higher than authority. Simple thing, when fr. Ted Mckarick tells you that pleasuring him physically is necessary for your salvation, obviously you should opose with all strength. But soemon could ask why? He is the cardinal, not you, so surely he shoud know better what is good for your soul ;)
Dr. Jones’ logic is flawless and he maintains his sense of humor throughout. I can’t help but admire him.
Jones misses the mark.
@@deus_vult8111what brings you here ?
Jones and Voris are greatly mistaken about the SSPX
Opus Dei hates SSPX. Can you connect the dots?
All Vatican II popes are modernists and they all promote false ecumenism 🤷♂️
@@benjamin3541 - You have no idea who he works for, membership card or not
Given the way Pope (if he really was elected) Francis has been going, what say you now, Dr. Jones?
😫😖😬😢🙌
He’s still the Pope.
@@giuseppemilza301 Is the church the church? German bishops declared to build new church complete different from the old one. Bergoglio was voted by St. Gallen Maffia. Jesus and Mary, mercy!
@@giuseppemilza301 How can a non - Catholic be the Pope?
@@michaelchmela921 All I can say to Catholics now; keep to the faith. Keep to you ancient traditions set about by Christ, whether it be Latin, Byzantine, or otherwise. The sacraments and Mary's grace will heal.
I'm guessing he's FSSP
is this guy drunk?he calls him davis several times, then calls him davies, then back to davis
During a round table talk with fellow residents of South Bend in April 2021, he said he quit drinking, because he learned he could not handle drink. He never said when.
He assumes traditionalists are breaking away from rome instead of the other way around
He does not speak for the Catholic church.
Yes, that is the challenge of our times. But that doesn't justify recourse to disobedience.
Rome is not breaking from itself. That makes no sense.
“If this Roman See could fall and be no longer the See of Truth, but of error and pestilence, then the Catholic Church herself would not have the bond of a society and would be schismatic and scattered - which, in fact is impossible.” - Relatio of Bishop Gasser
“But it would be contrary to the truth, if, proceeding from some particular cases, one were to conclude that the Church’s Magisterium can be habitually mistaken in its prudential judgments, or that it does not enjoy divine assistance in the integral exercise of its mission.” - Donum Veritatis
“That which our lord Jesus Christ, the prince of shepherds and great shepherd of the sheep, established in the blessed apostle Peter, for the continual salvation and permanent benefit of the church, must of necessity remain for ever, by Christ’s authority, in the church which, founded as it is upon a rock, will stand firm until the end of time… Therefore whoever succeeds to the chair of Peter obtains by the institution of Christ himself, the primacy of Peter over the whole church. So what the truth has ordained stands firm, and blessed Peter perseveres in the rock-like strength he was granted, and does not abandon that guidance of the church which he once received. For this reason it has always been necessary for every church-that is to say the faithful throughout the world-to be in agreement with the Roman church…For in the apostolic see the catholic religion has always been preserved unblemished, and sacred doctrine been held in honour. …This gift of truth and never-failing faith was therefore divinely conferred on Peter and his successors in this see so that they might discharge their exalted office for the salvation of all, and so that the whole flock of Christ might be kept away by them from the poisonous food of error and be nourished with the sustenance of heavenly doctrine. Thus the tendency to schism is removed and the whole church is preserved in unity, and, resting on its foundation, can stand firm against the gates of hell.” - Vatican I
Repent.
The Roman See cannot defect, the SSPX can.
@@grant4431 why assume that?
When was this speech given?
1993
@@TerryCarrollSharedSermons earlier than I expected tbh but thank you
I love EMJ. But, can’t understand why he gets V2 so wrong.
The bigger question is who was the sponsor who gave him $40,000 in 1979 to start a magazine and what were the Overton guidelines.
Obviously he could write about Jews, Gays and feminists, but he steadfastly never criticized the Pope, Vatican II, avoided certain historical subjects, and never wrote about Saints or Charity to the poor.
Can you think of a organization that might be in alignment with those positions and views ? Perhaps with a presence in south Bend ?
Do you believe in coincidences?
@@maxsmith695 Who?
@@ordinarycitizenn - Fairly obvious no?
@@martyfromnebraska1045- He was exiled from academia in 1979. He audience remained minuscule since.
@@maxsmith695 No, I'd like to hear it though.
Is he trying to be insulting to MD by calling him “Davis”?
He also said "Latte sententia" 😋☕
Idk of youre American or not, but in the US it is considered more insulting to call someone you respect by their first name. Very common in Catholic schools for everyone to go by last names given everyone has names like Michael, Dan, Matt, John ect.
"Davis" is the proper way to pronounce the Welsh name Davies.
Insults are nothing new. Gays, jews , lesbians, women of power. Catholic colleges that sent him on his merry way.
@@drworm1612 - Since when. LMAO
Man, I love E Michael Jones. Got confirmed into the church last year and have been trying to be a Catholic for the past 2 years. I have a few SSPX friends and a Sede friend and they all seem to have spirit of rebellion and excess pride. I appreciate how devout they can be and how seriously they take the faith and their conservative and political leanings but they're wrong and should obey the Pope and Gods church.
Francis doesn't inspire or deserve obedience
@@nathaniellathy6559 You're proving my point.
Have you watched Michael Davies make his arguments in the debate?
@@jamie7880 Yes.
@@Jamesrs7 what were your thoughts?
he keeps repeting sspx broke with rome..no it didnt, Rome broke with sspx....so everything else falls down in this discussion
The old catholic and sedevacantist schimatics make the same argument lol. The Caticitsm defines the Church and the SSPX isn’t the Church I sympathize with their position there is a lot of scandals in the Church but we got to fight it Within the Church and not lose faith in the Church
Prot mindset
@@neilanadams5173 loving Tradition is not prot
@@lawmaker22 Catholic tradition is not breaking from the Church and going off on your own , (following your privet judgment as your guid , )
That is Protestant tradition,
And choosing tradition over the Church is the excuse of every schismatic group that ever existed . Not saying SSPX is formally schismatic but the arguments used are the same ones used by other schismatic groups
@@TheCleanTech nope... True schismatics deny popes/peters primacy. Sspx never did that... You clearly dont understant what schism is
30:31
Anybody know what year this took place?
They referenced Clinton as being president, so that’s good enough for me.
@@josephhoyte296 1993.
How much stock can you put in a guy who doesn't even know the name of the person he's debating?
tell that to joe biden
Big deal
God bless E MICHAEL JONES he needs to be canonized in the future. The premier catholic statesman period!!!!
Is he Catholic? Does he wear a crucifix, cross, scapular, or medal? Does he attend pilgrimages, retreats? Does he belong to a parish? Does he lecture on saints? Did he re enter the church after abandoning his faith as a teen ? Does he support his local Bishop and obey his bishop, when the Bishop tells him to stop writing articles on the Jews that contradict Catholic teaching? The Bishop is the voice of the Catholic church, not Jones. Jones was fired by a Catholic college months after he was hired for REASONS never disclosed. He has spoken negatively of the school and the faculty, ever since. What Catholic virtue is that? Does Jones give money to the poor from his 501C registered non profit, which is where all the money donated to him goes? Randy Engel did a deep dive on the tax returns of his non profit and wrote about it. Her article is " ALL the men behind the Opus Dei curtain." The actions and words of Jones in 1979 got him fired, got him banned from teaching at a Catholic school, and even banned from giving talks on Catholic school or church property.
@@maxsmith695 JESUS DIED FOR THE TRUTH! HE TELLS THE TRUTH!!! AND your judaizing AND I’m sure he is not perfect or he wouldn’t need Christ!
@@scotttheo3711 - You are clueless. Judaize = to adopt jewish customs or beliefs.
I am here to point out what naive people like yourself, cannot figure out.
@@maxsmith695 you’ve said nothing you are attacking my character without addressing anything! Judaizing is focusing on meaningless externals and missing the internal essence of the thing. IT IS MY IMPRESSION YOU ARE FOCUSED ON THE RITUALS AND NOT THE MEANING. MOST CATHOLICS DO! IT IS VERY ADDICTIVE FOR ME TO!!! RELIGION IS COMFORTABLE BUT NOT ULTIMATELY TRANSFORMATIONAL. IN MY EXPERIENCE.
@@scotttheo3711 - Nobody said he was perfect. He is working daily to tear down the Church and its members.
I agree that SSPX position is logically inconsistent: if you have pope, you should obey. In this sense Infind sedevacantist arguments more persuasive.
That aside, however, I would really wonder how Michael would modify his stance in 2023?
Other side note - while pope certainly is ‘above’ canon law, he should not be seen as a ‘guru’ with some kind secret knowledge that he dispenses as he feels. The pope is still bound by Divine Law, as well as by need to be obedient to Christ, Sacred Tradition and his verdicts must be for the good of Church. That gives members of hierarchy as well as lay Catholics sufficient tools to hold pope accountable and provide correction - if the need be - of any wayward individual who ascended to the papal throne.
Such correction can and must include, in extreme cases, acts of an open disobedience or even deposition of such person. This has been teaching of past popes and stands the test of time and all common sense!
Ave!
You’d think over the course of becoming a doctor, EMJ would learn how to say basic words. “Schism” “logos” and even the name “Davies.” Jones is a short lived fad for modern trads who haven’t done much research themselves. He’s decent on economics but he should accept some humility on most topics, which he is no expert in.
Care to clarify what you think he is no expert on?
Pronouncing it "ssism" and "lo-gaws" are perfectly valid. Note that he does speak at least 3 languages. I will give you the one about Davis versus Davies though
@@juliannkretonn4623
Lo-gaws gang
@Bachagaloop Jones
EMJ would make a great Pope.
@@juliannkretonn4623 How gracious of you to grant the point that one of the debaters doesn't even know the name of the person he is debating. He calls him Davis at least 10 times and Davies 1 time from what I could hear. It's not a matter of pronunciation it makes him look like a fool.
You don't get to be Catholic on your own terms: SSPX is schismatic.
Not true
@@Mariasol07 Say that to Peter
@@Lazy949 Why don't you tell Peter how US bishops that doubt the dogma of no salvation outside the church are not schismatic but a society that affirms every anathema and dogma since the council of Jerusalem is for merely raising questions and doubts as to the validity of certain post V2 happenings.
@@tyroneulisses1764 no the charge of schism is in relation to the consecration of bishops against the command of the Pope . No one is charging them with schism for affirming Catholic dogma. That is a false characterization of the issiue
@@TheCleanTech The Novus Ordo stopped consecrating Bishops and ordaining Priests on June 18 1968.
Bishop Lefebvre kept Apostolic Succession alive for future generations.
EMJ is so rude and such a shambles
Sedevacantist opinion is correct.
In your opinion . But as an opinion it can and should be examined, and as a matter of opinion the contrary opinion should be tolerated peaceably.